ICF Construction vs. Precast and SIP Panel Systems
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- I take my knowledge of these systems and compare them to ICF. Yes, perhaps a little bias but let's see if I make some good points. Sustainable design, structural integrity and energy efficiency is a priority for us. www.uptokode.com
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I'm Kody Horvey, owner of Up To Kode; a full service carpentry, contracting and consulting company that proudly serves Red Deer and all of Central Alberta.
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I considered ICFs for my basement when I build my log home in 1999, but ended up going with Superior Walls precast. The main reason was the speed of installation and the same or lower cost. I also liked the fact that the concrete was 5,000 psi and is naturally waterproof with no need for additional waterproofing material or outside finish to protect foam. And the stud cavities allowed easy installation of wiring and boxes and the addition of a lot more insulation. I have been very pleased. My entire basement was completed in less than a week. A couple days for excavation, a couple of days to install drain pipe and crushed stone and then 6 hours to install the superior walls and a few hours to backfill the walls once the first floor diaphragm was completed. And I’ve had more than 20 years now of a dry, quiet and warm basement living area.
Id just like to be the voice of precast here. I can see in the comments that this is done difrently difrent places, but Im most familiar with how you drew it.
First off, attaching it to the footing. Precast for most parts is attached to the footing with long large rods, typicly an inch in diameter. This will then be grouted using special cementbased grouting mass. If the holes does not have a corrugated pattern, and the engeneer deems it neccesery, a special epoxy will be used. Typicly on footings that were poured prior to the plans being finished, so the holes had to be core drilled after the fact.
For your mentioning of the walls twisting and turning indepenently of each other, this is true. Mostly all walls are welded together in the top, and if they exceed 3 meters tall, they can be welded several places in the joint, to prevent this. Another common technice involves a set of cast in wireloops or rebar loops, that interlock and get a long rod thread between them. They can then be grouted together, with either normal concrete or special grout, again depening on what the engeneer deems neceserry.
If the house is completed using hollow core planks, you will get a very stiff building. Incredible R value, fire resistance and water resistance. Huge internal thermal mass, and generally very cheap and easy to maintain and heat/cool.
I would allso like to mention that the concrete thickness can be varied with this type of production. The walls are cast on a bed. The outer panel first, and then the insulation is added. You can form the insulation so you have a thicker concrete at the bottom and the top, and then maybe just 4 or 5 inches in the middle. Drasticly redusing the cost and enviremental impact of concrete production. This allso makes it possible to transport more walls per truck, and assemble them with a smaller crane.
Thanks for the input! It helps.
Pre-cast foundation walls typically are set on a bed of crushed stone. All you have to do is make the stones wide and deep enough for your soil conditions. Frank Lloyd Wright used crushed stone footings for some of his projects.
Structurally speaking in a disaster ICFs would be brilliant if they had rebars going diagonally at each corner about 1 foot on each side.
I wonder if they have ever integrated this idea. Several years ago a major university study concluded that connecting the corners with diagonal supports increased structural strength during an earthquake.
I haven’t come across this but we are not in an earthquake zone where I’m from.
Very valid point. I know we have installed some crazy rebar for major structural components in an ICF wall so anything is possible.
I enjoyed the video. I am wrestling with this now. What system to choose? On the point of thermal mass the one thing I don't like about the ICF is the insulation on the inside. If you design for passive solar gain then the inside insulation insulates the concrete from absorbing the heat gain. More of it will be lost through the glazing.
I had experience with it panel, three years ago I build small house in Ukraine bud I got same problem with convection air, the problem with fastening and assembly sockets and problem with rodents they really like surface these panels
How long can you extend the time that the wall can last in a fire? Such as rock wool outer insulation with a rock siding. I know it normally has a 4hr rating. Im curious only for forest fire purposes.
Could you tell me what you think about EF BLOCK. Made in Arizona . or drip me your email so I could cont you
Precast done in a warehouse gives climate controlled pour, stronger psi mix, rebar reinforcement (compared to form-set pouring on the job site) They can be placed and made sure to be square. Your drawing is a big mistake...precast does not have concrete on both sides - only the outside. After the XPS foam, the wall has pre-attached 2x4's to it so you can "finish" your basement (that alone is really great since it's a lot easier working with 2x4's than "hot-knifing" the ICF foam to put in your electrical boxes and screwing them to the concrete and then cutting the foam to run conduit.
I prefer "precast concrete, because it's a hard, concrete surface, on both exposed surface planes! It's waterproof, bullet proof, and strong as hell! There's no need for "stucco, or "cement-board/drywall, plaster, etc. It's COMPLETE, as poured, in place. Build the panels ON SITE, and lift with a crane, and set, tie/weld together, and go! STRONG, FIREPROOF, TERMITE/ANT/BEETLE proof, and ALL YOU NEED IS A WELDER, REBAR TOOLS, TIE WIRE, AND CEMENT MIXER!...AND A FEW TONS OF SAND AND GRAVEL!!!...
I would like to know your thoughts on SCIP panel system.
ICF's underground need some form of waterproofing on the foam (even before you screw a dimpled membrane over it).
Re insulating and thermal mass. In an ICF wall, the concrete is isolated from the inside and outside by foam. If the concrete isn't thermally isolated on the inside, you end up trying to heat (or cool) planet Earth through the footings as the concrete is highly thermally conductive. A high thermal mass means more time spent uncomfortable in your home as you try to heat or cool many tons of concrete when you change temperature. This isn't an advantage. It's a severe disadvantage.
Hi
The thermal mass comments on ICF could be a bit ambitious.
There is a massive cold bridge though the footing bearing.
The heat is heading that way before it ever comes back into the house.
The ICF would probably benefit by having more insulation to the inside face . Some call it thermal mass. I call it a heat sink as described to me by some Scottish guy.
1. Again, your comment about movement between concrete on the two sides in precast makes no sense since there is concrete only on 1 side (see my other comment). 2. Your comment about foam/caulking makes no sense because precast sections are also bolted together. 3. Air-infiltration? Please.
Have you checked Helix re bar for ICF?
Different materials heat up with different amounts of energy. Soap stone is much denser than water, but heating up a cubic foot of soap stone and a cubic foot of water take virtually the same energy.
Sir we've used both IFC and precast walls, both r good but I kinda like the precast better Sir the base has steel plates with rebar welded to plate plus steel pieces in walls and they get welded together
On the thermal mass issue I think that would only be an advantage when you have a large temperature differential between night and day, cool nights in summer or warm days in winter like we have out in the desert. Here in east Texas our summers are blazing hot even at midnight and winter is hazy most of the time so days don't warm up as much, so unless ICF can hold it's temperature for six months I don't think it's thermal mass will be of much benefit here, however it's lack of wood is a VERY nice benefit with our staggeringly high humidity and termites.
Can we construct ICF rafts's on Concrete poles? and create ICF Walls?
amazing accent!... good tutorial... thanks
What accent?
Sir we've used both IFC and precast walls, both r good but I kinda like the precast better Sir the base has steel plates with rebar welded to plate plus steel pieces in walls and they get welded together
Good to know.
How do you compare ICF to AAC (autoclaved aerated concrete)?
No I haven’t. I am making a full ICF series this year. I won’t cover absolutely everything but it should be fairly thorough. Any ideas such as this are helpful.
Thanks for all of your comments!!
1- AAC has zero native protection form moisture penetration... or freeze/thaw integrity. It requires critical attention to moisture control pre-construction, during construction, and post-construction. This is a problem within itself, as even the thinset mortar used for construction contains considerable moisture.
2- The climate/environmental window for AAC construction is smaller than that of ICFs, which are also limited, but not as much. At least with ICFs, the forms can be set when temperature/humidity/precipitation are not within compliance for pouring the concrete itself. AAC must be kept dry throughout it's lifespan... from point of production, through construction, and throughout the lifetime of the home. Once ICFs are installed, concrete can be poured as weather conditions permit. With AAC, the entire structure INCLUDING weather barrier/cladding must either be rapidly constructed while conditions permit, or excessive moisture control measures must be implemented during periods of prolonged exposure.
3- thermal and sound permeability are on par with ICFs... but at different rates/ranges, and with different on-site variables which must be accounted for. Where thermal mass is of concern, obviously ICF construction is superior. With regards to basic thermal permeability, AAC construction can exceed ICF, but requires the use of expensive polymer bonding materials instead of typical thinset. In typical AAC construction using thinset mortar, the comparable thermal penetration of AAC is slightly degraded via thermal bridging of the thinset, which is higher than that of the plastic lattice matrix used In ICFs. It is worth noting however, this comparison is dependent upon a "perfect pour"... which is an onsite variable. If the concrete does not settle properly, with all possible air pockets removed, the thermal insulation is degraded. This is why the pour is so critical, as ICFs are "blind pour" or "blind fill"... meaning one cannot inspect the integrity of the fill visually. AAC provides a more consistent product in this manner, as the integrity of the whole wall material can be visually verified throughout it's entirety.
-AAC typically offers a lighter overall footprint. Where engineered foundations are used... ESPECIALLY insulated foundations... this could be a critical component of the overall cost and performance envelope. The potential for benefit here is two fold. The overall structural integrity will benefit from decreased initial settling time, AND depression rate over time. Given the same foundation parameters, the foundation itself will endure less stress with AAC construction.
-AAC is more conducive to direct-to-surface cladding, such as stucco/etc. . Actually, stucco is the preferred exterior cladding treatment of most AAC structures... but requires polymer based components to avoid introducing moisture to the AAC substrate, ESPECIALLY in areas that are subject to extreme temperatures or precipitation/humidity.
-AAC is a far more compliant material with regards to custom construction, where complex/ornate design features are integrated directly into the structure itself. Arches, rolled edges, coves, and other artistic/architectural features can be integrated directly into the structure itself... as opposed to requiring additional fixtures. This may or may not play into the desired design, but it is a capability not exhibited by ICFs.
-AAC construction always has a dust hazard present, until both interior/exterior cladding is complete... thus, PPE measures must be taken into account prior to those stages of completion. Also, AAC is typically made with a high percentage of fly ash... a material of potentially high health risk, if not managed properly. The inability to simply "wash down" walls built with ICFs, means these risks must be managed with dry methods of containment (near constant vacuuming, etc.). Most crews working in AAC construction, including electrical, will usually employ a laborer who's time will mostly be dedicated to this task alone... unless the AAC crew assumes the task of cutting wire chases, plumbing provisions, and installing stations and register rails for drywall and exterior cladding. In most cases, this is not possible. Only when crews are well informed and integrated, along with all design parameters set. Aside from standardized construction (multiple uniform design structures), this is a veritable impossibility. Post pour cleanup, ICFs offer a cleaner and safer construction environment aside from EPS shavings.
-AAC block is somewhat less equipment/labor intensive. A good masonry crew experienced with AAC, can typically lay the wall in slightly less than double the time required to simply lay up the forms of ICFs. Also, the time, expense, equipment, and additional specialized labor cost of pump nozzle pour-in-place concrete is avoided.
-Alternatively, pour-in-place AAC (PIPAC), also known as chemical aerated concret (CAC) typically does not allow for vertical construction (walls) without introducing variables into the end product, and is not compatible with typical ICFs. Pour-in-place (PIP) AAC concrete is not technically true Autoclaved Aerated Concrete, as no exterior heat source is used as with block that is baked in kilns. "PIPAC" (pour-in-place aerated concrete) utilizes a chemical reaction (usually an alumina admix with some sort of acidic catalyst) to induce aeration. Although heat is involved in the reaction, it is not autoclaved. As a result, the vertical load decreases aeration and porosity in the pour. This effect is amplified with the height of the pour, and typically mandates a staged/segmented/layered pour... where the pour is made in 12 to 24 inch vertical "stages"/"segments"/"layers", allowing time for the material to fully aerate before pouring successive material. For this reason, performs/precast are often incorporated for large sections. AAC precast allows true AAC material (not PIPAC) to be used in vertical construction. Preforms can be used on site to facilitate PIPAC in vertical construction... where PIPAC can be poured into the desired form on site in a horizontal position, then raised into position once cured. both methods have their merits. True AAC is a better performing material, so precast is 2-3% better insulating option than preform PIPAC... but still has thermal bridging between panels. The thermal bridging of precast is still far less than block... and most reputable AAC manufacurers also have precast panel products in their portfolio. Preform PIPAC allows on site customizable integration of PIPAC, without the necessity of staged pour, but still requires some thermal bridging in the joinery. In the end PIPAC could potentially integrate VERY WELL with ICFs... but I have only seen one product that is still in development stages. PIPAC has different physical properties that must be taken into account with the production of the ICF itself... hence why typical ICFs cannot be used with PIPAC.
-ICFs have an advantage in sound mitigation... albeit somewhat minor and more specifically at lower ranges
-ICFs also are also somewhat more competitive with regard to extreme forces in areas with high potential for extreme storms and/or seismic activity (coastal areas and earthquake zones).
AAC, like traditional concrete, is also available in precast slabs for above grade floor/roof applications, while retaining its sound and thermal insulating advantages.
-AAC is a carbon negative construction material, for those applications which could benefit from LEED credits, or other carbon emissions reduction programs.
-AAC transportation footprints are higher, due to the lack of manufacturing locations... where as ICFs have a relatively equal transport volume, and much lower transport mass... as concrete is usually available within a short distance of the site.
-both systems require engineered plans for construction in most developed areas of the world with building codes. To my knowledge, only Germany and a handful of lesser jurisdictions have established codes for AAC construction. I do not know of any jurisdictions that have established codes for ICF construction.
It is worth noting here, that neither of these products are "as installed" structural wall or roof solutions for residential applications. To my knowledge, only sealed laminate SIPs are capable of providing a whole wall/roof solution. Laminate and fill/core materials vary. Sealed laminate options include PVC, fiber composite (carbon, glass, and basalt), and sheet metal (steel or aluminum). Fill/core materials are available in EPS (expanded polystyrene, the most common), rockwool (a cement/fiberglass composite), rigiplast (a plastic or polymer and fiber composite media), stabilized roving fiber (looks like an ICF, with rigid material maintaining space between the laminates and stabilizing the woven fiber), XPS (expanded polyurethane, or similar polymer), and several "green" options which incorporate various end-of-life consumer materials like paper, plastic, denim, and other post-consumer waste products. Although PVC laminate SIPs are sealed, they lack te UV protection for exterior applications without some form of protective coating. Also, PVC laminated panels do no allow for direct polyurea application. Most steel and aluminum laminated SIPs are available with with exterior coatings... and when properly installed, do not require any further weather proofing for a code compliant wall/roof solution.
@@driverjamescopeland holy hell my brain hurts from so much information. Time too Google AAC cause I have no idea what that is.
#1- "monolithic structure" I don't even like monolithic foundations, much less monolithic structure... ESPECIALLY with the weight and rigidity of concrete.
#2- "how do you connect one panel to another without having it pull apart"... For our preferred steel SIPs, that would be 1/4x2 self tapping/self sealing screws and non-skinning caulk.
#3 "it actually acts like a R50/R60" no... no it doesn't. Thermal mass and temperature stabilization/penetration have their merits... but when it comes to heating/cooling sustained gradients, ICF is what it is... a sub-R30 thermal barrier. Sure, you can sell and demonstrate your claims in transition periods... when gradients average close to desired interior temps.... but try that in sustained single digit temps. Furthermore, the duty cycle of the HVAC is less consistent... because the HVAC can only account for air temps, not structure. If a negative gradient has penetrated the structure for any reason, it will take 3 to 7 times as long for the HVAC to penetrate the ICF and establish barrier stabilization, as compared to EPS core steel SIPs.
ICFs offer only two advantages over steel SIPs... sound control, and extreme force dimensional stability. In other words... if you want an energy-efficient bomb shelter, or just want a near-silent home, go with ICFs. If you want superior temperature control, energy efficiency, and maximized return on investment... just look at who needs it most, and what they use. Steel SIPs dominate the market of above grade temperature controlled storage. In the end, that's what your home is. It's a temperature controlled storage for your family and belongings. If you want the best solution, follow the most cost conscious buyers.
Another benefit to applying peak commercial/industrial solutions, aside from peak performance... is total envelope performance... return on investment and structural integrity. Lots of people hear "concrete", and they immediately think "strong"... but that's not always the case. Concrete is a porous water penetrable, low strength-to-weight ratio, bulk product of variable consistency (hence, the reason for onsite labs for large scale pour-in-place operations). Steel/EPS SIPs have dependable and consistent structural and thermal performance... from production to installation, and throughout the life of the structure.
How about foundation requirements? ICFs require higher load foundations than steel/EPS SIPs... requiring more material, ESPECIALLY in regards to thermal control and insulated foundations.
In the end, in exchange for a minimal effective degree of performance where ICFs are superior (extreme physical force resistance/sound control), you gain the following with steel/EPS SIPs:
-higher efficiency temperature control
-more consistent product (concrete can only be poured within certain temperature/moisture/humidity windows, and composition must be adapted to conditions)
-higher return on investment
- less material intensive foundation
-MUCH faster build times
-fewer conditions cause weather/climate delays
-less on-site specialized labor requirements
-single source material for the entire above grade envelope
-independent structural material allows the entire structure to be "dried in" and "under roof", transferring all other work to post-construction "finish work". Aside from interior load bearing walls... once the panels are in place, roofing/siding/drywall/etc. are not structure critical/dependent.
-post construction adaptation/customization is easier and less labor intensive (aside from the requirement for electrical conduit... windows, doors, additions, and virtually all other structurally involved improvements can be made faster and easier)
-more conducive to progressive home improvements... as the owner can have a viable home structure or "shell", adding interior and exterior elements as required/permitted over the life of the home. As an example, one can build an open living space basic accommodation at point of construction... then add features such as siding/roofing/drywall/etc. on a later date. This decreases initial investment for the buyer.
- single solution structural material also eases code compliance, ESPECIALLY with regard to increasing energy efficiency requirements. Steel/EPS SIPs are sheathing inclusive, eliminating the need for sheathing/vapor barrier installation. Also steel/EPS SIPs have non-porous exposed surfaces... making total envelope permeability goals far more easily obtainable, and less material and labor intensive. This again, results in a higher performance envelope.
-higher material-to-labor ratio. This is crucial, in regards to value to the homeowner. When purchasing a home, the homeowners' buying power per square foot is increased with SIPs, simply because more of their investment goes toward the actual structure of the home... as opposed to the labor of constructing it. No other current building system compares to SIPs, in this regard... not even stick frame construction.
-whole structure material solution, means structural unity... expansion/contraction rates, thermal permeability, and structural integrity are all unified/homogeneous. This reduces/eliminates many of the issues associated with roof-to-wall interface surfaces and joints... increasing the structural integrity and energy efficiency of the home over time
-lighter materials/structure equate to lighter foundations... in turn, decreasing both overall settling and compressive footprint of the home. This not only decreases material costs... but again, increasing structural integrity over time, and increases the effectiveness and dramatically reduces the cost of insulated foundation when/where implemented
You may think concrete has a higher degree of structural integrity... but aside from withstanding extreme physical forces, it simply can't match the effective performance of steel laminated EPS core SIPs in residential applications.
EPS gives the least R value of any solid foam product.
What about precast floors vs freshly poured?
It all depends. Pre-cast has its place. If you want ultimate in strength go poured concrete with dowels into a monolithic ICF wall. After the floor sets the entire structure is one piece. Does that help? It just depends what your goal is and what you are doing.
Kody Horvey hmm, I’d assume that the walls would burst with a monolithic pour
Do you remember the case of Jeff Bush from Florida? He fell thru the buttom of his house into a sinkhole and disappeared to never be seen again. If the house was built using ICF, even if it sunk into the sinkhole, Jeff would have been safe inside and rescuers could have saved him thru the roof which by then would had been at ground level, height wise......
Someone else told me that story on another ICF video of mine. Very true! Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!