A Detransitioner's Thoughts on the Trans Community
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Welcome to the first edition of Ask Elle Anything (Anonymously) - ALA! This week we're talking about the trans community. Whew, this is a spicy one. Please don't take offense to what I say here - my opinions and thoughts change often and if you are offended I would rather have a conversation about it so I can learn and understand your perspective than a battle of ideology.
Question Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:09 "What are your thoughts on transgender people in general?"
6:19 "Can trans people and detrans people exist in harmony?"
16:43 Outro
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there need to be more studies on detransitionig
There have been, but they've been deplatformed, unfortunately. Same with r/detransition and r/detrans (was banned but brought back).
Sadly, a lot of people would be up in arms about it "hurting trans people" or "making trans people look bad"... that's what always happens if you bring up ANYTHING that isn't all sunshine and rainbows about transition
@Tonya Antony To be fair anything would be construed as a medical experiment on young or vulnerable people. Disallow them the space to socially transition? An experiment. Allow them to socially transition but not medically? Experiment. So far, social transition moving into medical transition over time has shown to have the best outcomes so that's the way we're moving. Would be daft to do otherwise.
This needs to happen, but it will never happen because results conflicting to pro-transitioning narratives will be labeled as intolerant. I've seen this happen a lot in the research field.
@@CM-hk8so tbf its difficult enough to research people who are transitioning due to their relative rarity, its super difficult to to get a good unbiased sample size for detransition I'd wager. I've never seen anyone in this field regard this topic as intolerant - the only place I have seen this mentioned is when people are misrepresenting the statistics to spread fear of transitioning.
Trans man checking in just to say I support you and other detransitioners so much
Ditto🔱
That's legitimately the first comment I've ever come across from a Trans person, actually being harmoniously beautiful and accepting Elle's detransition. The world evolves everyday, this makes me optimistic for your community. Thank you as trans people, for being so supportive of Elle. I love compassionate people. That's awesome.
Same here!
@@Channel66678 Same same same!
Define 'trans.' Go.
The biggest problem I see is that we, meaning the United States, seems to have a kind of "All or nothing" or, binary, if you will, attitude about issues. Too many people will see the very existence of detransitioners as proof that there is no validity in the trans identity at all. That's what make sit so hard to have a conversation.
and these are the same people who say gender is a spectrum
@@gauloise6442 Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the existence of detransitioners don't really prove it one way or the other.
Tonya Antony would love to see the proof of only 1%
@Kevin Cobb My point was simply that the existence of detransitioners has no bearing on whether or not gender is a spectrum, or whether or not trans identities are valid.
Tonya Antony
"A 50-year study out of Sweden found that only 2.2 percent of people who medically transitioned later experienced 'transition regret'" Herzog 2017a
Note: detransitioning is not always done due to regret.
“Motives for detransitioning commonly include financial barriers to transition, social rejection in transition, depression or suicidality due to transition, and discomfort with sexual characteristics developed during transition. Additional motives include concern for lack of data on long-term effects of hormone replacement therapy, concern for loss of fertility, complications from surgery, and changes in gender identity.”
Others also temporarily detransition for fertility. There are transgender people who detransition and then retransition. They feel like outcasts with their experience because they are even rarer (MTFTM or FTMTF).
Another different study that seems to showcase post-surgery detransitioners:
"Detransitioning after surgical interventions ... is exceedingly rare. Research has often put the percentage of regret between 1 and 2% ... Detransitioning is actually far more common in the stages before surgery, when people are still exploring their options. 'There are people who take hormones and then decide to go off hormones,' says Randi Ettner, a therapist who has served on the board of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. 'That is not uncommon.'" Clark-Flory 2015
Also, I’d like to note that I’m a transgender man and detransitioners are a minority within a minority. 1%, 5%, whatever, still a minority and it’s quite difficult for them to fit in with such little support.
I’d like to also add that there could be new statistics coming soon since it seems transgender people are getting a lot more attention as of late. What I’m saying is, the rate could be increasing, or it isn’t increasing, but, rather, detransitioners are starting to come out and become more publicized. With videos like these, detransitioners may actually become less common.
Oh, and it’s not TRAs jobs to prevent people from choosing to go on hormones that aren’t right for them. I empathize with detransitioners, but you must realize they made this choice and it’s not anyone else’s fault. If, for instance, you asked a forum with transgender people in it whether or not you’re transgender, they don’t know you, but they’ll take a guess. You can’t blame them. You could blame the gender therapists, but they just go off of their teachings. No matter what happens, detransitioners will always exist, forever. Gate keeping too much will prevent real transgender people from getting the help that they need, so why do that? Have trust that people can determine whether or not they are meant to transition.
I have a (very naive probably) question. There is something about gender theory that I just don’t understand. I feel like it says, on one hand: your gender is not about your body, your gender is about how you feel like you identify. But it also says: because your gender is man/woman, you need to change your body to fit the image we have of a male/female... Isn’t that contradictory? I understand that in practice, some might modify their body to stop being misgendered because that is hurtful to them. But in theory, if other people were accepting, why does your body need to « fit » your gender? Also, I can’t help but think about how a lot of the feminism movement worked on saying « you don’t need to be a certain way because you are a woman » (you don’t need to be « ladylike » or « feminine ») and « no, women don’t think so differently that they can’t do what men do », and gender theory is a bit like « nope, gender defines you at your core, man and woman can’t feel/look/think the same ». I am not saying this to be hurtful, I don’t have anything against trans people, you do whatever you want with your body and use the pronouns you want. It’s really on the theory level that I don’t understand.
"Why Gender Matters" by Leonard Sax goes into this in a helpful way (at least I found it helpful!)
YES. Your comment is exactly my argument.
I’ll bite...
I’m transgender, so, uh, maybe I’m qualified in some magical way to answer this. Also, I’m saying my own thoughts... some things you say don’t match with what I’ve heard in my spaces.
“Your gender is not about your body, your gender is about how you feel like you identify.”
Your gender is about how you identify. It is about how you feel on the inside. When they say it’s not about your body, they mean it doesn’t match, not that you shouldn’t make it match... lmao
“Because your gender is man/woman, you need to change your body to fit the image we have of a male/female... isn’t that contradictory?”
No, I’m making my gender dysphoria go away (an awful feeling like depression that subsided when I’m read as male, at least in my experience).
Also, when you say “to fit the image we have of a male/female” ... idk what your image is, but I think a dude has a monster dong, and chicks have breasts and vaginas. Idk how gaining those parts at all conflicts with what a male/female is.
Taking testosterone, what most males have in their bodies, makes my body change. I grow a beard, my face squares a bit, I get buffer. That sort of stuff. I’m a guy with the average level of testosterone, and I match what a guy is because ... I’m a guy.
If you mean clothes, clothing doesn’t have a gender. If I went out with a dress, pretty sure I’d look like a guy in a dress. Personally, I wear what I’ve always worn... never liked dresses...
“I understand that in practice, some might modify their body to stop being misgendered because that is hurtful to them”
Maybe in some cases, but even if I were getting misgendered, I’d still transition. Hell, it’s super awkward because at work I’m not out and I look like a dude... everyone still calls me she/her pronouns but I do get a lot of “your voice is really deep” and comments on my masculine appearance, lol. I still get misgendered, I changed for myself.
Clarification: I only get misgendered at the hospital or at work, but out in public they call me by he/him pronouns. I don’t correct my coworkers or doctors because that’s awkward AF
“But in theory, if other people were accepting, why does your body need to fit your gender?”
Because I have gender dysphoria.
When I look in the mirror and see my chest, I want to off myself. Before transition, attempted suicide a lot. Cut my wrists, overdosed on anti depressants a handful of times (haha, handful.. that’s how many I would take, why is my sense of humor so awful?). I remember taking pain killers because I heard they can help with depression. Never got addicted. Tried hanging, last resort before finding out about transitioning was jumping off of a bridge that many jump off of every year.
When I found out about transitioning, I stopped all of that. I said, and I quote,” if transitioning doesn’t get rid of this pain then I’ll just off myself! :D” I was very happy about this idea. If it wasn’t for me, I’ll just end my life. I was going to anyhow, so why not give it a chance?
I became super happy, never thought about ending my life again. I occasionally get a little sad about infertility, but nothing too serious. Just a tiny thought that shows up before I go to bed.
Basically, gender dysphoria is bad, and it doesn’t matter how accepting everyone around you is, it’s something that goes on within yourself.
“You don’t need to be ladylike or be feminine”
If I had a dime for every time I’ve heard that... I’d be able to pay for my surgeries out of pocket, lol.
Anyways, the thing is, there’s tomboy trans women, there are feminine trans men. They can have all the surgery done (top and bottom) and still present this way, happily. It’s not about how you dress, it’s not cross dressing. It’s about getting rid of the gender dysphoria. For me, that’s surgery. For others, maybe it’s just a haircut.
Being an effeminate woman (idk why typing that sounds rude... feels like an insult. Tomboy) isn’t the same as needing to change your genitals or your chest to feel comfortable in your own skin. There are some trans people who don’t get surgery or hormones, they usually either can’t because of medical reasons, or they just have dysphoria differently. Some just want to be called by he/him pronouns (social dysphoria). I feel like this question isn’t best answered by me because, of course, transitioning isn’t limited for me.
Basically, a trans man who just cuts his hair usually just wants to be referred to as a man, regardless, due to social dysphoria.
The main component in all of this is gender dysphoria. I used to be really confused too before transitioning. You’re a lot more open minded than I was. I was dogging the trans community and I was very transphobic, lol. Discovering gender dysphoria made it click, so maybe that’ll help.
C Thank you for your answer! I guess I always heard of dysphoria as « I don’t like that others see me like this » and not as much « I hate seeing my body like this ». It makes sense that if every time you see yourself in the mirror it makes you feel really bad you’ll want to change it.
I might actually be uniquely *unqualified* to answer this because I am agender and just sort of bewildered by the idea that anyone feels a strong attachment to any gender? But from what I understand, there's a lot more nuance than that. Masculine women still feel like they are women (or so I am told lmao). They like or dislike their bodies to the same degree and *in the same way* that feminine women do. Same with feminine men. I know like a good dozen people who are trans masc, got to a certain point into transition and suddenly felt GREAT wearing dresses. They didn't hate being feminine, they hated pretending to be women. I also know plenty of butch trans feminine people (actually I know a ton of them, they're quite common in the sapphic community just like butch cis women are). Trans people tend to feel A LOT of pressure to conform to gender norms because they feel like they need to prove to outside observers just how trans they really are. If society is ever able to stop having such a strict gender binary, there would still be people who take hormones and/or get surgery, and there would be people who didn't but are still a binary gender and would like to be referred to as such, but we could all just wear and do whatever the hell we want and mind our own business doing it.
Congratulations - this was thought provoking, honest and being true to yourself. I think for discussions to begin needs to be from the non dogmatic (or non woke) sides- and you certainly came across as willing to hold dialogs. Looking forward to the next q&a session.
I totally second this!
I (20 years old, desisting gnc female) recently came to the conclusion that transition isn't right for me. I had heard of your channel before, but kind of avoided it. Maybe I knew I would relate more than I wanted to. But now, it's been a huge source of comfort after a very... abrupt awakening I had. I'm not sure how I'm going to move forward after living as male for a pretty long time but I'm glad your videos exist. Thank you, Elle, for helping me accept myself, you help people more than you know. You're lovely. And thank you for another insightful video on a tough subject! I hope you have a great night!
I think a lot of people are confusing gender dysphoria with body dysmorphia when being diagnosed and in order to protect trans people and cis people when being diagnosed a person should be treated for body dysmorphia first and if treatment for that fails then look into gender dysphoria.
The brain is a powerful tool and often underrated.
Preach: everyone, including all who think themselves open minded, need to be more open to others' thoughts, feelings and opinions. I think you have sharp mind.
Being open minded by dictionary means being ready to hear the other person's opinion and actually take it seriously, nobody is open minded in every discussion, there is always something that touches people that will prevent them to be open minded in some situations
This is why psychologists are absolutely essential when somebody is transitioning.
A competent psychologist would've avoided all this.
I did therapy with a general therapist for 11 years and finally one day he said that he was recommending to a gender therapist. I spent 4 years working with her before I was able to accept myself. I just started my transition 6 months ago and at 35 years old I feel better today than I have in my life. I see so many people especially young people who are discovering this and themselves and they go into it all gung-ho and it can destroy their lives. I am certainly not saying that anyone should repress themselves in the ways I did but I do think some measure of patience should be executed. I am 100% sure of my situation but I am not starting hormones until I have managed to live 1 full year as a woman. I am 5 months into full time transition and I have an appointment scheduled for February of next year on my one year anniversary. If for some reason what feels right changes between now and then I will cancel that appointment but having dealt with all my other issues regarding my mental health this is the last thing that was hanging over me. Since I came out to my friends and family I have gotten closer to all of them. My own mother said she knew this when I was a teenager and just never wanted to push me in a direction I didn't want to go. I am actually happier and feel more comfortable around people. I deeply sympathize with the detrans community. I hope each and every person finds their inner self and can live their lives to its fullest.
Can we have an update please?? How is everything going?
Good for you! Now go set a new womens bench press record! 💪
Jk, but good for you if you're really a trans person and not just sucked into it like thousands of others in the last few years
I support people following their truth- whether that's transitioning, detransitioning, or staying the same. Everything is so subjective. I respect your balanced opinions. Much love and blessings!! ❤️
This comment is acc stunning
@@andreacooray2702 aww ❤️
Thank you for being an advocate for the detrans community well still respecting trans people.
this is the second time this week you and Jamie Dodger have uploaded at the exact same second!!
I watched Jami first but now I'm here lol.
Omg, that's a small & not important thing, but I find it funny that u named these series ALA cause in Polish Ala (Alice) & Ela (Elle, your name) are the most common names which are often confused because of its shortness/similarity of sound
So it's like u joked naming these series the opposite name than yours :D
Elle, that was a great video. I really liked hearing your take on the questions you answered. Just great.
I just love you.
You seem so kind and intelligent, and you are so pretty.
Thank you for sharing this!
Love hearing your thoughts on these questions. Thanks for posting!
Can I just say I’ve been following your videos and you are so incredibly intelligent. The way that your mind works, the way you examine every facet of each idea, etc. really shows that
'the more-woke needs to chill' 🤣 truer words have never been spoken
(There's a lot of deeper elements to what you said that I could explain but you summed it up nicely lol)
@Sienna Waters Yooo so relatable!!! But not about tran issues. I was a sociology major 15-10 years ago and wanted everyone to "get clued in" to what I already knew, and now that they are, it's TERRIBLE. (And I saw issues back then but I ignored them 🤦) Now the average Becky comes at me for shit I knew before they were born. Lol. People need to chill and I hope they do. I'm sorry you weren't through all that, but everyone has their path!!! I love that this community exists now. ♥️
Yes, I agree so much!
@Sienna Waters Aw hey no need to feel bad! It's all part of the journey, which is beautiful. Especially coming to understand the depth of our trauma and integrating it - that's what makes us adults (emotionally speaking). Wider society could do with more community spaces for supporting that process. And yeah, all of us have a unique and ever evolving make up of masculine and feminine polarities! Can take time to find what feels like home for us, which is completely fine.
Can be tiring when people make assumptions about our identity too! Butch women have often been made to feel invisible especially. But ain't nothing wrong with kindly correcting people :)
notifications from Elle? I’m came running
You are just awesome.! Great choice of questions and i like your honesty in talking about them!!. Be Blessed !!
In regards to the first question, I think it's important to note the complication that it unfortunately is not just a question of being able to transition at 18, but of even making it to that age without transitioning. Regarding the second question, I don't think the fact that trans identity relies on feelings is at odds with the science of it, it's just that more research has to be done (I mean, I'd say that's exactly what neuroscience, psychology, etc. is for).
I just love you! So soothing to listen to you. You are so calm and thoughtful. Appreciate hearing your experiences and ideas!
I was a nurse for 35 years so I came across trans people before many others knew what it was. But as you say, the numbers were very small who were happily transitioned. But the almost epidemic proportions of trans people now is mind blowing. So if it isn't really gender dysphoria, then it has to be put down to social engineering, fashion trends and insane amounts of money made by the medical and pharmaceutical industry.
I think that in a world with social norms so rigid with sexual roles, it is normal that there are people who rebel. Which means that the system is wrong, not their bodies.
Above all, considering that we live in a society that practically hates women, I think that it is expected that many women feel the desire to flee their female bodies. (Sorry for the english, i'm latina)
Your English is great. Don’t worry. I never would have known it wasn’t your 1st language
Society doesn’t hate women. It doesn’t hate anyone. Society has no thoughts, values or feelings. However, people do. Your just projecting and spreading a toxic and incredibly damaging lie to young women.
@@grandmastersreaction1267 "Society" is just a term that represents most people who live in our culture who hold social norms and beliefs that are spread by media and generational expectations. So yes, people do have thoughts values and feelings and they share commonalities with those around them.
@@grandmastersreaction1267 You're just dead wrong on this one bro.
I can see where you're coming from!
You are so knowledgeable and insightful for a very young adult.
Great video Elle 🥰
I have to commend you for how thoughtful and well spoken you were answering these questions. You have a gift with your communication.
Elle, you have done an excellent job on this video. The best I have seen yet! Honest, Genuine, Measured, Mature and Fair
So glad you are doing these. Listening to an intelligent balanced person who has lived through and experienced it all. This is very helpful. Thanks.
I love love love hearing your thoughts because you’re so intelligent and thoughtful. Only two criticisms:
1. Too short. MORE MORE
2. Too quiet, have to turn it up so loud and the adverts deafen me and my entire neighbourhood
Thank you for this, Elle. I am transgender, and I recall some months back that I commented something in nuance to how you felt about things - I'm not sure what it was, but I have worried that it may have come across as adversarial. I am someone who takes great thought into her life daily, warts and all... I take solace I knowing that left and right have not fully swayed me into submission. The truth is, I am and always have been very grateful for your & other detransitioners' (and interviewer-commentators like Arielle Scarcella & Benjamin Boyce) content. This modern world needs unpacking. I remain curious in seeing what's next. Thank you for helping us do the heavy lifting. ~ gillian née akinsoji
Ya'll are really killing me with these new definitions of the term "woke". Being woke means being aware of what's really happening around you rather than letting the wool be pulled over your eyes. It doesn't mean being a social justice warrior to the point of bashing people over the head with certain ideas. Black people started saying woke as in "pay attention, wake up and see what's really happening, stay aware". I don't understand how "woke" is now being used as a negative connotation by other people who really have no clue what the word means. It's irritating. Anyway, other than that, good video.
Unfortunately, many people who are utterly blind to reality have chosen to describe themselves as "woke," leading to the negative connotation the word has now. It has largely become divorced from the original meaning.
Conservatives just took the term “woke” and ran with it
Being "woke" turned into a badge of honor. It turned into "us vs them." Being "woke" turned into an excuse to exercise your hatred under the guise of being "anti-racist" or any of the SJW causes. It's a world where if you try to say something like "not all white people are bad," you're a racist. If you say "I really believe trans people deserve the same rights as others, but we need to slow down and really think about the sports issue," you're automatically transphobic. If a trans "woman" wants to date me and I refuse, I'm called "transphobic." That's being "woke"
@@laurence2421 That’s probably true for online discussion but most academic political discourse, irl, is much more nuanced. The perception of the legalistic “woke” crusader is more of an online phenomenon, saying “most white people aren’t bad” in a left-leaning academic institution won’t raise any eyes. But I do agree that the people who actually fit that caricature are incredibly regressive, although they’re a vocal minority.
@@laurence2421 yeah you’re right and it’s stupid. I’m tired of this thing that feels like a never ending war. Honestly, it’s everywhere, this community vs this one and in every community as well so it’s internal and external. I’ve always said through love is where education and understanding can truly begin and I believe that. If everybody would shut up bickering we’d all come to realize we are a whole lot more alike than we all think. We actually agree on many things.
As someone who is questioning themselves I have been looking at various viewpoints, those who are detransitioning and those in the process of transition, have seemed to paint a clear picture of confusion that helps to sort things out. I am uncertain if that makes sense but your videos, opinions, and life experiences shared the way you and many others do help so much
girl, you're honestly so intelligent. Love your videos
I appreciate listening to your perspective, which is different from my own. I am curious what your thoughts are on prescribing hormone blockers for folks under 18? Based on your experience and your general reasoning, it would seem like this is a fair solution. I do think we need to be cautious in using anecdotal evidence to draw conclusions about transness. I think we also must remember there is way more to transness than “science” (I use air quotes because I am referring to how you address science being mainly brain chemistry, psychology, etc). Cultural norms and social dynamics are also important aspects of identity and shouldn’t be disregarded especially when striving for nuance. I appreciate your openness.
Serene Singing thank you!
Serene Singing absolutely. We shouldn’t be gate keeping “transition” especially if it can be done in a way which doesn’t permanently impact someone under 18. Hormone blockers seem far less harmful than allowing someone go through puberty and have permanent changes to their body that can be extremely harmful and have long lasting impacts. I think one of the problems with this video is that it only speaks about transition in the form of HRT which only scratches the surface and maybe isn’t even on the table for many trans people.
@@morganjeidy8130 There is no evidence that puberty blocking medications are helpful for gender dysphoric youth. It is a completely experimental "treatment." The evidence currently available suggests that, contrary to the often peddled claim that they are a magical pause button with no permanent side effects, using them to prevent normal puberty is detrimental to the physical and mental health of adolescents. They are approved for halting precocious puberty only.
Elle, I so appreciate your thoughtfulness, honesty, and vulnerability. You bring tough, emotional topics back to a human, experiential level which need both compassion and questioning. Thank you!
Also, one tidbit as a neuroscientist - there are sex differences evident in the brain! From some basic things like the visual system, which includes the eyes/optic nerves and occipital lobe, to more complex things like behaviour, studies have found sex differences between males and females (and even intersex!). I recommend the book "Why Gender Matters" by Leonard Sax - it is a decent overview for people outside the field, though the second edition is a few years old and doesn't go into depth on more nuanced topics. Hope you keep exploring these questions - I sure am, and there is more to learn every day!
i enjoy listening to your insights on everything. i'm a 23 year old who identifies as a trans guy, pre everything, and actually came out to friends and some family around 6 years ago. something that i don't quite regret is being so slow and thoughtful about my transition. i've barely touched the trans community, i just know i was weary since i would see people come out and go on hrt almost immediately and that made me feel less valid because i wasn't so desperate. i truly do understand why one would want to go on hrt ASAP, but i think there is some value on taking a breath and slowing down a little
Exactly. I think what’s fairly toxic about certain aspects of the trans community is the pressure to use medical interventions ASAP and if you don’t want to go on hrt the moment you can, you aren’t trans. I doubt when I move out of my unsupportive household I would want to directly go onto hormones, I would need to live my life as an adult before I do such a thing. To understand if medical intervention is truly the right thing. Taking a step back from a lot of the community has done wonders for me, but I was only able to do that because I have supportive friends. Many my age don’t. So, they flock to the trans space and get consumed by it, internalizing it’s ideology. Honestly, there seems to be no right answer to this kind of stuff. Sending good vibes my dude
Taking it slowly is better. Slow and steady progress until you reach a life that works.
@@unruffledaria9643 Yes! I had a gender therapist who I stayed with for around a year when I first came out. He really focused on being in the now, and when one of the clients would mention wanting to start T, he would actually make them pause for a moment and think if they were actually ready to start it at that time.
Thinking back on it, he really did make me feel comfortable in my own gender expression no matter what. Funnily enough, on my first visit with him I was wearing chipped black nail polish, and he mentioned it was a good sign
This is definitely true but I also think that a lot of people take the breath and slow down before coming out. They don't tell anyone other than a select group of really close friends/family until they are ready to start transitioning. This is actually the whole idea behind puberty blockers, fwiw. They are a safe and totally reversible way to mitigate the way that dysphoria usually intensifies during puberty, buying kids time to figure things out.
I went through a long period of giving myself excuses to coming out as trans. Once it clicked and I accepted the reality, I started to social transition and started HRT six months later. It was the right move, even though to others I transitioned “quickly”. It was very slow and gradual from my perspective.
I created a long playlist of trans videos to try to understand the community desires, wants and needs, then found your video. Will watch some of the others but you have summed up the key issues quite succinctly.
It's not all about biology though. Psychology and sociology encompass entire fields you are basically neglecting. They can actually be more nuanced and complex and cause a lot of social dysphoria that presents it self subconsciously as physical dysphoria. Changing parts of the body can be more about 'passing' so that other people treat you as the social construct of either gender. I think this likely manifests itself as your own internal struggle that feels innate within you. No mind is isolated so of course your sense of identity is moulded by society and outside experiences.
I agree completely with your stance on having more restrictions in place for teen transitioner's because sense of identity and views of how you want to be treated change and fluctuate too much for permanent decisions. But I also don't think diminishing most trans people's feelings as misunderstood forms of other mental health problems is completely correct either, I think there is definitely validity in beings trans, however fleetingly, in a larger percentage of the population than you believe.
This is an interesting perspective that I hadn’t considered. It does have a lot to do with society at large which is something I’ve forgotten about over the years. Although it does become a hard conversation because how much should society be able to shape the way you view yourself, or the way you want to be viewed? Especially for women, this is where much of the issue lies I think.
Thank you for providing your insight into this topic.
Your thoughtfulness in your perspective shows.
If I may, 8 months late, I find questioning can sometimes break through feelings. Questioning, breaking down yourself to get to the real core of what makes you you. If you believe something, where did it originate, what convinced you of it, why this belief instead of some other belief. Not easy questions, but questions that need to be answered. Philosophy.
You can stand up a bit more for yourself! I really respect you. People that critique (in a positive yet strong way) are remembered.
5:40 "going through a different puberty than what you were supposed to go through"
I mean no disrespect, and I'm glad you're sharing your story. This line in the video stuck out to me because a lot of transgender people use language like this. In the video, you were talking about how people who transition and go through the wrong puberty and then detransition can never recover from this. But I think there are transgender people who argue that not allowing someone under 18 to transition is forcing them to go through the wrong puberty.
Imagine one person knows they are trans from a very young age, wants to transition when they are under 18, but they are not allowed to. If this person grows up, transitions, and never regrets transitioning, then they may say that they went through the wrong puberty as a teenager. The wrong puberty could have been completely traumatizing for them.
And now imagine another person who knew they were trans from a very young age, and they *were* allowed to transition when they were under 18. If this person grows up and detransitions, then they may also say that they went through the wrong puberty. As you said, "you can't recover from that."
I guess my point here is that both of these situations must be horrifying and painful. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe that there has to be a way to prevent both of these situations. I think there's a future society where people are welcome to explore their gender identities and aren't judged so harshly by most people if they decide to change the way they present themselves multiple times in their lives if they want to.
There are hormone blockers for kids/teens who are trans or questioning.
It blocks them from having ANY puberty
So if they finally realize they are not trans, they don't have to detransition (just to go through late puberty once).
If they realise they ARE trans, they avoided the wrong puberty trauma and their medical transition (as an adult) is easier, since they don't have to REVERSE the effects of puberty
Thank you for your video! A question: is it true that puberty blockers aren't safe? Do they stop brain development too? So that it's useless to get them cause you'll still be immature to take the decision to go on T. Moreover, I read that blockers are still dangerous for your health. What do you think?
@@barbaragervasutti5934 I read a study that said that puberty blockers are harmful to bone health
Sometimes, the fact that they go through this puberty helps them to understand that they aren't trans. That's why
What are your thoughts on jammidodgers video on detransitioners?
Very wise words. Thank you Elle for being open and nuanced about this.
It is apparent that you have found your true self, sex aside. I love your honesty. I'm nearly learning how my married daughter, who just had a baby can decide now she's trans. She's been dealing with anxiety and depression for years and now suddenly this is her answer. She wants her 10 month old daughter to call her dad and wants her husband to also refer to her as dad ( he refuses) I'm trying to learn, her husband is hoping for a miracle and her therapists are like sure, if that's what you want let's get started.
It must be so hard to transition ( like realising you were born in the wrong body must be mentally challenging on its own) but then not finding happiness and having to fight even more seems like a living hell. I’m a cisgendered woman and like everyone I have minor issues myself but I am so grateful I never had to go through anything like this. You are all so strong.
Question: Why did you change your name to Elle instead of using the name you had when you were younger?
I actually answered this in my patreon video this week, you can check it out if you’d like.
Thanks for sharing your story.
It really turns me off about the way the trans community treat the detransitioners. It's not their fault even If people use their stories to justify banning the surgeries completely. It's not fair to say to detransitioners they have to shut up, they're not just hurt by the cross-sex hormones and surgeries, but also have been abandoned by the people that should love and support them. Denying and ignoring their living experiences will not make them less real, and the same right trans people have to talk about their journeys, also should be given to detransitioners.
I want to commend your honesty and your bravery. You articulated very important overlooked points. I'm very sorry that, no one actually advocated. Im sorry you were manipulated and your mental health issues exploited. Allah be with you. May you be led to the straight path. May you heal and may you find peace. Ameen
Hope your surgery goes well and we se you on the other side. Look forward to your next video.
Fantastic start to your series.
I haven't seen you in awhile. Look how beautiful you are! Your natural female traits are resurfacing in a great way.
Hey Elle! Just wanted to pop in and say I’m a huge advocate and ally for people who detransition, and I fully support you and believe your experience is one that is valid and complex and so important to be spoken out about. this is something we absolutely need to be more considerate about before transitioning, because it’s true, there are so many changes that you can’t get back once you go on hormones and get surgery etc. I believe it’s VITAL to be VERY sure before medically transitioning. BUT i’m also one of those people you referred to at the beginning of the video that believes that you don’t have to be on hormones or have unbearable dysphoria to be trans; if you say and feel you are, you are. and if you realize you’re not, you’re not. it should be that simple. I’m so sorry for those of the trans community that aren’t so open minded. detransitioners should be taken more seriously.
I don’t know if you’re actively trying doing it, but if you compare your voice here to your video from 6 months ago, it does sound a little higher in pitch! (Not sure if pitch is the right word, but it sounds less deep)
I think it's very interesting that I find myself agreeing with you on, I'd say 80% of what you say, while I'm also a nonbinary person with a more "woke" gender philosophy. I think it's neat. :) I must say, I'm not really well-versed in the online trans community, but I have a feeling that a lot of trans and nb people have a deep understanding of the nuances of gender, as well as the danger in transitioning too early or when it's not the right choice for you. In the end, we all want to feel good in our bodies. So, maybe we can find common ground there. Anyways, thanks for your thought provoking content. :)
Does anyone know of any spaces for Ex NB people? The detransition community is SO CLOSE but my experience is definitely different than those who have had to reverse medical transitioning. Just curious and wanting to find others who relate.
there are a lot of desisters in the detrans community- those who identified as something else but didn’t medically transition. I follow quite a few on twitter. they’re mixed in with the detrans community but we have all gone through very different experiences. not sure if there is another dedicated space for that.
@@ellepalmer thank you so much for letting me know! Maybe I'll fit in better than I thought lol. I've only been exposed to the detransition community on UA-cam, I'll look into it more on other sites as well 🙂 (by the way, you're amazing and I love what you do! Thank you for speaking up!)
I don’t know of one but it would be cool if we can start one. I was nonbinary and used gender neutral pronouns for almost 3 years before I went back to being female identified.
@@aradiasnowdon7016 maybe on Reddit or Discord?
I seriously love Elle. Shes so pure and such a sweet person. 🙌🏻🥰
I'm gonna be honest I was a little nervous for this but I love your views about a lot of this because things aren't so cut and dry for everyone I totally think the issue is they're putting gate keeping at the wrong end now they're doing informed consent yet the drs wont listen to someone like me who's been transitioning for 7 years its deffinetly backwards for sure. Keep being you and thank you for the videos I really appreciate the education you provide about your experience.
amazing, your message will save lives xx
This is SO important. I hope many, many, many young people, practitioners, activists, and parents can hear this.
Regardless of what has happened in the past, know that you are fully whole, important, valuable, worthy and necessary in the eyes of god.
I hope you’re able to continue on in peace, joy, hope, and happiness!
Still sending you prayers hugs and strength I love your bravery ppl tend to bash those who want to be different wishing you all the best
I would love to discuss this topic with you further. You don't know me and my opinion probably doesn't mean much to you since you don't know me from Adam, but I'm fascinated by this upsurge of people coming out and using their voice that are going through what you're going through. I have to say I'm incredibly proud of you using this platform to make yourself heard. I know it can't be easy and I'm sure you've probably faced opposition. I have nothing to do with the trans community or the de-trans community or the LGBTQ community or any of that. I'm a Christian teacher that lives in Oklahoma, but I've had several friends that came out that I went to church with, and watching what they went through and trying to reconcile their religion and what I could obviously see they were legitimately feeling was heartbreaking. I don't discount the feelings that young people are dealing with that cause them to feel the way they're feeling. And I'd love to explore that more with you if you're ever interested in having a debate with someone from a different perspective entirely from you.
Just know I have a great deal of respect for you, what you've been through, and what you're doing now to give voice to those they're probably don't feel like they have one.
where did you get that necklace? :)
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Through tolerance detrans and trans perspectives can co-exist. Various religions and political ideologies can co-exist by having tolerance for the other side. I respect the opinion of a trans person even if I don't agree with or like trans ideology because they are entitled to their personal perspective.
I agree with you. I'm trans and I knew when I was 4, I wanted to transition about 10 years before I ever heard the word transgender and before I ever saw it on TV and before I even knew it was medically possible. I'm also in a very small percentage that actually felt phantom penis in my youth, and true genuine gender dysphoria is estimated to be 0.3% of the population, and you feel obvious dysphoria and don't need to watch a TV show to figure it out. It's so rare, and I too believe most people who transition today are not trans.
this! I too, knew before there was even a word for it. I was transitioning socially and didn't even know it or have the terms for it even just 6 years ago. (Was out to only a couple of people.) Didn't know I was "Trans" but knew I was different, so-to-speak. I also have phantom-limb and had it as a child as well.
@@blaue_blue very recently a university started a study in trans men that feel "phantom penis," they are going to do MRI scans etc I'm pretty sure. It's incredibly rare and definitely interesting to study, I'm glad it's being looked at.
oh god i've dealt with the phantom penis thing. its actually pretty terrifying, like i feel it there, but look and it...isnt. it's so hard
@@beanarias5806 which Uni? I want to keep tabs on this study.
@@blaue_blue @Tystro Naut they are currently studying it at NYU (New York University). I tried to be a candidate but they had enough people by the time I applied. I assume they won't have published results until a while. However, there's some other research from other places from previous years, but not a lot!
I think you are very smart. May God be with you.
I have the impression that maybe we should think of transition as a process rather than an identity.
After having listened to many trans people and detransitioners, it seems like thinking of transition as an identity leads us into murky territories where we have to wonder who is "truly" trans. Yet if you had gender dysphoria for years, and took steps to transition socially and medically but detransitioned, were you never trans ? What to do with all the people who did transition medically and socially but never felt any gender dysphoria, since they did transition ? Are we going to call all gender-dysphoric children "trans", even if some never actually transition ?
Yet the way it appears, transition seems more like a tool among others to alleviate a mental health problem, a particular way of deeling with extreme feelings of discomfort/pain/etc (but one that comes with a lot of consequences).
Seeing transition as a process might maybe help people better understand what is actually gender dysphoria. The word "identity" makes it seem like it's almost immutable or innate, like your DNA. It also does not help that many see trans kids today as the gay kids from yesterday, and think of mental health seessions with psychiatrists who want to explore their patients' issues as a form of conversion therapy.
I feel like what we most need is a watchful waiting, but compassionate kind of approach where kids should explore various topics about themselves, their sexuality, their previous traumas, their bodies, etc. before deciding, as grown-ups, if transition is the good solution for them. And all transitioners should be aware of the potential psychological, medical and social costs/consequences before making such life-altering decisions.
More data is needed. More formations for professionals. More time with the people concerned, more care, more follow-ups.
As a person who has been questioning their gender identity for 10 years now, these are very important points to bring up! The way you say that it's probably a very small group of people who are actually trans and how many people are rushing to take hormones and get surgeries are maybe going to have to run into the idea that they were wrong maybe. Those are all things I think about. I also have to say that I struggle with mental health issues, including a ridiculously low self-esteem and hate myself so much anyways, regardless of how I identify. That's why I hope to talk to professionals about that to work out my gender identity issues before just jumping to "oh we need to get you on hormones immediately".
Best of luck Julia! I hope you find presence & contentment in your physical & mental being. You don't need to change at all to be an awesome person.
You explained your thoughts so well and so politely, I don't see how people can hysterically disagree. I want to see the "woke" side of the trans community to have open dialogue with detransitioners because creating a wall of shame between the two stunts any kind of growth. And you're right that too many people are using feelings over scientific fact. I wish I had scientific fact when I was 16 (when I had socially transitioned as male) because hard proof that my brain isn't male would have convinced me. Relying on nebulous emotion is so treacherous and unreliable, especially when it comes to something as irreversible as transitioning to the opposite sex. We as a society need to approach transgenderism more intelligently and with structure. Thank you for making this video. ❤️
You are soooo spot on. Wow.
And what do you think about blockers for teenagers?
My gosh every video you make, your voice sounds higher and more feminine.
You sound so much happier
Thank you for giving your honest sense of this. As a retired K teacher, I completely agree about children. Look at YT channels: mrmenno, The Honesty Project, Waffling Willow. Best 2 u, Elle!
You are valid. You are seen. Your message is heard!
Babe I think you voice got higher. You know... I have never took T but people still think I am an MTF when I actually I am a biological female. Personally I love this duality!
I can see things from both perspectives too, and being someone who identifies with the “woke” side of the trans discussion, there are people on this side who are willing to have an honest conversation with detransitioners and people who aren’t fully in favour of trans self-identification as it exists today. I more closely agree with the viewpoints of people like Contrapoints for example.
I believe that there are trans childhoods, and that many children / adolescents / adults are saved by transitioning and reducing dysphoria, but they should not be pressured. Like you said, take your time to see how you feel, not instantly go into hormones ... something like that, taking the time you need.
Hi, I'm transmasculine ("nonbinary" but I don't like to put that label on myself)
I watch both sides alot since I've not done medical transition (I'm in queue for it) but idk yet if I will do it or not.
Just wanted to say I support you and like your vids, they are very informative 😊👍
Very important message
Trans man here, I support you! I hope science one day gets to know what it really means to be trans. I don't hang out with other trans people because I know I will be labeled as transphobe. But hey at least I'm in peace with myself, I'm about to start testosterone, after three years of social transition (opposition at home, I stopped trying with my dad after he blamed me for his stroke, he's also very homophobic so I don't expect anything; my mom is not supportive, but she's not opposing me actively either and I live with her). I am questioning many concepts and learning about other experiences, like reading ROGD testimonials, desisters and stuff. And it kinda got into my head for a while, as always when I don't have dysphoria my 'what if' hits me, but I'm still very comfortable with myself and my path. I think I've finished to analyse every part of what could lead me to develop gender dysphoria, I have no depression, anxiety, ADHD, or autism, no sexual abuse history, no eating disorders, no trans friends (I sometimes feel bad for not going into those cirlces), no internalised homophobia (not attracted to women either) and as I've been working on myself to pass I have relieved my body dysphoria to an extent, but only testosterone will achieve the male features so I'm really excited for this. Not so much for the acne and hair loss thing but hey I can't pick and choose.
Being trans is not a big part of myself, my life is devoted to non human animals, the fight for their basic rights to live and be free. I think that since I stopped killing and raping animals for each meal and put the focus on making people realise that, it helped me put my dysphoria aside, but I still feel uncomfortable while doing activism because I'm not confident in my voice and overall passing and I get misgendered almost every time I do street outreach, bc I have to raise the volume and sadly my voice gets high pitched and outs me.
I want to have sessions with a therapist before I take my dear vitamin T.
I'm curious about what will their take be.
You're a strong, respectful and very intelligent woman. Hope the woke trans activists realise you are not the enemy and listen for once. You're lovely!
I think some people who transition and some people who detransition - and I think it's a people issue in general, but I want to focus on de/trans as an issue here - is that some project and are way too vocal about their projection, regarding other people's experiences.
If someone is trans and they know they're trans with every fibre of their being, they will have likely had a lifetime of people doubting and questioning them, and of mistreating them. So they project their entire experience onto new people who express discomfort with their gender. They don't want to come across as doubting, or questioning, or gatekeeping, or like they're contributing to this new person's hurt, so they overcorrect by 1) presuming that this new, young person must know with every fibre of their being in the same way they knew and 2) try to make it as easy as possible for the new person to transition because that's what they wanted/needed whenever they started to transition.
Similar goes for some detransitioners, but in the opposite direction. A lot of them might finally know with every fibre of their being that the decision to transition was an incorrect one, and come to understand that what they felt before was something different and more complicated. That transition seemed like some kind of easy or life transformative fix for all those other problems, whether the person was aware of this underlying reasoning at the time or not. So then they may project this experience onto the new young people, and fear for them, and fight to put more hurdles in the way - sometimes to the point of trying to deny people the option to transition altogether - out of that fear that these other people could be making the same mistake.
There has to be some kind of middle ground, here. First of all, we need to stop projecting our own experiences onto others. Next, we actually need to listen to the young people, and psychologically prod them in a way that is neutral but respectful of them as people, so as to assess them thoroughly and work with them to determine the best course of action for them as individuals with individualistic needs.
omg you look different! Even from a video a few months ago!
What is the best advice for guy like myself who likes trans women and want to date trans women
Look, I think the reason why trans people want to transition so early is because they are afraid if they don't transition soon by the time they do (medically) they won't recive the results they want. I'm a pre trans guy and when I think how badly I want a deep voice I get super impatient because time is running out for me if I was a cis dude I know for a fact my voice would be so much deeper than if I started now. I think that's why so many trans people are medically transitioning so young the fear that they won't get the best results if they started so late.
yo elle getting prettier by the day since the last time i check her channel LOL
Thank you Elle! I think you should speak up in a group to save many many teenagers from getting the wrong path
You are awesome!🥰
Best video ever! Thank u so much))) Same opinion 🙂
I think it depends on what trans community is being talked about. There's the adult trans community who totally support you, and then there's this new trans community where everything is extreme and most of them shouldn't label themselves as trans.
What are your thoughts on silencing/canceling people that question the "woke" trans community?
There are so many people who haven't even heard of detransitioning.
I once studied and interviewed a transgender women. I wish I would have had more knowledge back then because I would have asked completely different questions. The reason why this topic interests me so much is because I never felt 100% feminin. As a kid I hated pink, dresses and everything that sparkled. Also horses and barbies were so not for me. I wanted to be masculine to be friends with boys. I envied their type of friendship. Females always seemed to talk a lot behinds other people's back. When I was around 11/12 my mum asked me if I actually feel like a girl at all. It was the first time that she ever asked me this in a very serious way. Back then I had no idea that people actually transition. In my mind it was more like: I'm born a women I have to be okay with this. And honestly I'm glad I didn't had this knowledge. Maybe I would have considered an other path. I started feeling very feminin when I started dating. Now I'm just me. A love skirts and dresses but also the masculine skater look like.
A lot of that comes from internalised misogyny
I'm very gratful thst my mum and dad just got thst I wasnvt and a big dress perosn until I was older and I've never felt 'non-feminine' even though I'm not wearing dresses and things all the time. I suspect my mum never wearing dresses or makeup was pretty helpful and just going to school and seeing how a lot of female friendships were carry and disgusting just made me think 'they're horrible humans' and my closest friends were very similar to me in the sense that they wear makeup and dresses sometimes (special occasions) and didn't make me less of a woman than those catty ones who stabs everyone they know in the back with a lack of respect and kindness. But the boys were also the same in my school XD It's strange how just having one or two people in your life showing that you don't have to follow a stereotype makes a massive difference during puberty for most teens (I never had an issue with my identity personally but I know itvs common).
I was the same way. I have probably felt masculine or androgynous more times in my life than feminine
To feel feminine for me is sort of a chore, sort of like extra effort and studying it and trying to emulate it or understand it. One time a friend and I both commented that if we got all dressed up with makeup and heels we felt like we were in drag. And this is from cis gender females. So its surprising how many of us can feel just not in alignment with our bodies or our faces etc. Its very odd!!!
@@ld9630 I agree. I saw my mum having to do all chores and my dad just being lazy. My brother was never really expected to do anything while I had to help from a young age. My mum treaded my brother very differently. So yes, I'm very sensetive. Surely I picked up on all the differences and unfairness.
Boys/men also talk behind people's back. It is a human thing.
I support your right to find happiness in your life. No matter how many corners you feel that you must turn to get there. Life is way too short. The maze of life is long. Turn every corner you desire. Seek and find your desires, find your excitement, this is what drives all of us. In the end l really want you to find your peace.
You seem a lot brighter today. Thats great 😄 I hope you have a really prosperous & happy Monday that's just what you need it to be. I'll be back soon. 🐞
I think you are very intelligent and very brave. I’m a very traditional person who believes in Science and facts. I guess I’m not woke. But, I think it’s extremely important to help young teenagers through this process if they think they’re trans. My concern is that later, they will change their mind, ( like quite a few people on UA-cam are vlogging about), but they will already be deep into hormones and their bodies have gone through extreme changes. I just think it’s a serious issue, but it’s treated like a fad, although not many would admit to that.
Well, just my opinion.
Elle you are just amazing. I would love talk to you, I am a non-binary trans girl, and very openminded and transitioned as 26 year. And I do question on transition for teen and kids..
As a woman i feel like i was born in the wrong body because I have body dysmorthia and body image issues since childhood and i feel like my body isn't feminine enough compared to what i see on tv and in media.
Do not let media and tv define who you are. You are made perfect. You do not need to be anything other than who you are. Be proud and hold your head up high.
Janell Martin yesss
Most of the women I know feel like that in a certain degree, some more than others but still feel it nonetheless. Don't worry, you're just fine as you are. You are as much of a woman as the rest of the female population.
be proud of yourself and your womanhood. there is no right way to be a woman..no one right look for a woman!