Wheel Spacers & Adapters - Good Or Bad?
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Are wheel spacers safe? Are wheel spacers a good idea?
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How will wheel adapters affect handling? What effects will wheel spacers have on suspension geometry? Wheel spacers can help with fitting big brake kits, altering wheel offset if aftermarket wheels are used, and can widen a car's track, thus reducing load transfer and ideally improving handling. That said, wheel spacers affect suspension geometry, and will change the scrub radius, affecting braking stability, and also reduce the effective spring rate at the wheels. Wheel spacers can also cause wheel bearing failure.
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I wish my university had a course called engineering explained with you as a professor and you could just talk about car stuff all day
I do like talking about car stuff.
+emertes17 Bro if my school had that course I would be all over it.
+emertes17 Transfer to Texas A&M where they have classroom and practical application of automotive engineering. I didn't go there but now after knowing what I know, I wish I had. Maybe I'll get my PhD there. Another good freebie is they have the Texas A&M Sports Car Club. I hear they're very active in all sorts of motorsports.
+Cre8Thought41 yeah the TAMSCC
Why not just enjoy this lol
Hey, that seems like a pretty good summary.
Did you forget the consideration section: It will make the car look cooler?
Hahahahahaha excellent
jason larkin Yeah but engineering its not about coolness, its about funcionality 😂
@Fernando INDEED.
Remember, if you don't look cool while doing whatever you do nothing else matters, so that does needs to be factored in.
Also less tippy when 4 wheelin'
Clearly explains the pros and cons! Well done, short and to the point! I appreciated your explanation about how wheel spacers change load characteristics at the wheel bearings and consequently shorten bearing life. Keep up the good work!
I have like 3 inches of spacers 2) 1"1/2 stacked on each other PLUS bigger wheels 20" instead of 17" AND I have coilovers that lowered the car 2 inches but that wasn't enough so I cut a coil of the spring too! Giving me about 3 inches of drop on a 2012 mercedes c250 coupe. So thats 3 inches and a much stiffer suspension... I've had the car this way for like I donno 2 years or like 50,000 miles... the only problems I had was I tore the boot on my cv joint in the back, (rear wheel drive) and the subframe bushings are pretty shot... but my bearings are fine! The car is fine... this smells like a hater video... but I appreciate it and I love all EE videos..
I do agree the car probably handles better stock! Lol
But it looks amazing coming down the street super wide and super low!
Widebody everything ftw
After adding 15mm spacers to the rear of my car, I've noticed a significant difference vs. them not being there. With the spacers, the rear suspension feels a lot softer, almost too soft, so confidence in the corners is reduced. The car looks better with them on, but I think I'll be removing them soon.
should have nothing to do with how a vehicle rides.
God lord this is an old post and video..😅
Weird aftermath. I had 3 cars and all of them had wheel spacers added and the suspension changed to harder...
I noticed my suspension was softer as well after adding 20mm spacers to my Z, I would assume that would be due to the increased leverage the tire has over the suspension.
@@curte7739he literally states in the video that spacers can reduce the effective spring rate.. it’s called leverage dude. Ever use a breaker bar?
I am a automotive service major and I also work in a small shop doing small jobs. It's really fun and rewarding. The worst thing about it is, now that I know a lot about cars, modifying my own car scares me. If I go with more power, I think of how the valve seats have more wear. If I lower my car, I think of how all the suspension components have more wear. And thinking of all of that suckkkkkssssssssss
+Marius G yeah man, my car used to be lower and on stiff springs, a few potholes later and some rekt bushings failed me at inspection. needless to say i got different springs+shocks after that as well :/ also apparently a mechanic had to "jury-rig" my front swaybar so it doesn't fall off, something to do with the mount(-ing points?), didn't charge me for it so w/e...
+Marius G same here, if i add more power i always think ' the candle that burns brighter dies first'
people forget that stock is the most reliable as it's engineered to go for ages with a decent brand of car
+Marius G, It's good you are thinking about it rather than just doing stuff and possibly messing something up. Research and knowledge is important before modding, that's for sure! A health caution and respect for cars is important too when tuning them. Glad your enjoying your job by the way!
some things you just have to accept you will replace. I know a few hardcore racers, on wheelbearings for instance they plan on running through 2-3 sets in a year. and sometimes Modifications dont change enough to make much difference. It is a good point though, especially on a daily driver. then theres the stance crowd that thinks sparks coming off an undercarriage is cool, and run camber that grinds through bearings at an alarming rate considering they are on public roads and most are too cheap to keep them fresh.
If you value reliability, the best thing to do is have a decent budget, and either get a non-daily car or be cautious and have a backup fund/plan.
You should have also mentioned that it has the same effect on the wheel bearing as if you just got bigger wider tires is the exact same stress on the wheel bearing rather it's done with the spacer or just plain out bigger tires and rims so take that into consideration when making a decision
Can I put a spacer on my spare wheel, that would bring it down closer to the ground and effectively lower the centre of gravity on my car, making it handle better?
Braam Olwage lol
haha try it!
It's like a makeshift skid plate except now you'll bounce over obstacles, I do it too! I corner like a Subaru all day in my spare-spaced ford cummins toyota ZJ on 44's
I've got a spare tire inside my SUV... adding a spacer would make *less room* in the car for groceries.... Da da DAAAAAAA..... (Just kidding, honey)
Hilarious
Great videos! I just love these! As a physicist with a penchant for mechanical things, Jason tells it how it is, simply and correctly. A very refreshing and entertaining approach to vehicle engineering. Five minutes well spent! All the best, Rob
I thought his name was Kyle
@@kylemcweeny878 Nope. Look at the "About" section on his channel and you'll see this: "Jason Fenske - Channel Owner - Engineering Explained" All the best, Rob
You need a bigger dry board man.
+PatonHaus Sounds like you need a bigger screen. :)
+Engineering Explained I know you are a busy engineer, but I do have a question about offset on this video. If i go with a wider wheel, how do I keep a correct offset?
+AustrianAnarchy Well this is just my opinion but wider wheel means more surface area for the tire but I would assume that the tire still loads weight pretty good and suspension geometry wouldn't change drastically.
3rdpartyU5er I should have been more specific. Wondering about the load on the bearing. Pretty sure if the center goes out farther that creates a bigger load on the bearing, but if it stays in the center or is moved in closer to the hub is either of those bad too?
Well it depends on the centre hub of the rim because as you said it yourself as the hub goes further away the bearing gets more load but then again depends on the rim because there are quite a few different rims that have the hub on different location because of the width of the rim. You have no worries if the wider tires have the hub on same position as in stock tyres and what I mean is that you measure the hub distance from the inner end of the rim to the hub. So the wider wheel may be the same as stock wheel but after the hub the rim has a bigger lip for wider rubbers. This should not stress your suspension.
I use spacers on my 4WD truck for a totally different reason. I went from 265 wide and 32” mud terrain tires to a 235 wide 32” all terrain tire. This made a huge difference in ride quality, 2mpg increase, and noise abatement.
However, the overall track was pulled in quite a bit. The spacer just pushed the thinner tires out to the original track width (outside to outside).
for the last point, even without wheel spacers, if the wheel has more offset it'll wear the bearings out faster.
but if the wheel is wider towards the center of the axle it could compensate the offset and thus have normal wear characteristics.
Pyry Mustonen Let me explain what he meant. I for example had 18x7.5 with 45 offset. I bought aftermarket wheels 19x8.5 with 40 offset. Due to the wheels being 1 inch wider but only 5mm less in offset, my wheels stick out around 18mm more. Therefore my wheels are also around 8mm wider on the inside, which results in less space between my suspension and my wheels, but also less leverage on my bearings
Very true but in the case of spacers not wheel offset the wheel doesn’t get wider. If you do spacers and wider wheels the wheel is still push outward more which still moves the center of the wheel out further from the car.
The major issue with wheel spacers is the safety factor....bearing, scrub radius change, loading of springs, etc ALL negatively contribute to possible problems that can result in an unsafe car. A wider wheel can give the same issues but often those wheels are wider both on inside and outside so yield the same tire position relative to stock. In many countries use of wheel spacers is illegal. If you think you are a better engineer than the people that designed your car...go ahead and mess with spacers but I would never use them on my SCCA race car or my street cars. Just get a PROPERLY specd set of wider wheels and tires.
Years ago when I was about 8, I can remember helping ( more likely hindering) my father to jack the family car up and put wheel spacers on it. He did this every summer just before we hitched the caravan on it to go on our holidays. Only more recently did he explain, that he did this to add more stability to the rear of the car whilst towing the caravan. As soon as we returned home we would jack it up again and take the spacers back off. Even back then I recall the car looked skinnier once they were off again, but, for him, that was their purpose. I came here for information and I got plenty! Guess I will leave my car as the designers intended now, as there seems to be less advantages for and more against doing it.
bro...you've just explained something i've had in my head for a while that's been buggin me and now that i've seen the effects of wheel spacers ...not gona consider them ...at all ...thank you ...
Holy crap that 4k looks good. I can see your gray hairs much better, thank you.
+JDMricist Just for you!
+Engineering Explained can I have some money
DieselPower Gotta earn that UA-cam money brah.
pffft nah
The biggest threat of wheel spacers is indeed the change in Scrub Radius and in Kingpin offset. In short: you could be altering your NEGATIVE scrub radius to a POSITIVE radius, with the result being you slipping all over the place when one wheel is on a surface with less friction (Icy spots, gravel, etc.). The other problem lies with your increased kingpin offset and having a lot of power driven to the front wheels, which results in massive torque steer.
Hope it's any help!
Remember that adding a wheel spacer is the equivalent to going to a wheel with a different offset.
Also, the wider track allows more stability during those off-camber situations when you are out wheeling.
The cheaper wheel spacers are often not hub centric, so they can potentially put undesirable loads on the lug studs and result in more radial runout.
Say you have an OEM size of 18x8 +50 and you want to upgrade to 19x8.5 +35 - because you've added a half inch of width does that counter the .6 inch wheel offset increase and now the center line of the tire has not moved out as much? 8.5 +35 is optimal vs 8 +35?
@@banimanFJ that is a very good question. I do not have an answer, but your mode of the thinking sounds correct.
I never bothered to figure it out to be sure, but I believe that per the original design of vehicles, the steering axis is intended to be right in the center of the wheel/tire and you want to stay in that vicinity as much as possible. Why? How? That's for the engineers to determine. I am not smart enough to know stuff like that.
He is young with grey hair, you can tell how much knowledge that brain is packing. Sensei, please take my bow of respect, you just gained a new subscriber from petroleum engineering
Still one of my favorite channels. I rewatch a lot of videos to refresh my knowledge of things. No, it’s not as entertaining as some other channels, but the information is plentiful, accurate, precise, and explained well. You don’t often find that here on UA-cam.
I added .80" spacers to my 2018 impreza due to its softer suspension and the reduction in body roll while cornering was immediately noticeable.
You sir are a dumbass. The overall spring rate is reduced when using spacers so the body roll will increase all things equal and if you added more rubber then the body roll is increased further. You think you are feeling something which is wrong which is why listening to retards on youtube is pointless
What I found out over the past 60 years of my life is that Engineers can only make thing look right on PAPER not what happens in real life situations. I have been running 2" spacers on my 2008 GMC 2500 HD Duramax Truck for the past 7 years. With a V-Plow, salt spreader and 2,450# of salt in the bed of the truck. Still have not had any problems with suspension or wheels.
Having hub-centric spacers is the same as having low offset wheels. Most people say they are bad but I have personally seen some of the fastest race cars in the world use them to great effect. Some of these cars generate in excess of 1000kg of downforce and i have spoken to the engineers and they have not seen a single bearing failure. Porsche even supplies them as an option on some of their models.
Guess it depends on how much the car weights, and also the quality of the bearings themselves.
The fastest race cars in the world are also usually rebuilt with completely new bearings (not to mention valves, spark plugs, pistons, shocks etc) so frequently that it isn't allowed to become an issue -- in some cases after every single race. They never see failures because the components that could fail are never ran long enough to even come *close* to failure let alone performance-degrading wear -- unlike your average "tuned daily driver" that will see 15,000 street miles a year but only ever have the wheels off when it's time to put new brakes or rubber on.
Pretty solid advice. As a member of several auto forums, guys are always talking about bigger wheels, tires and brakes, etc. without any consideration of these facts.
I don't mind certain aftermarket improvements, but I am very aware that they all come at a price of some sort.
Thanks good video
Another great video, as ever! How about a video explaining torque steer? Very little info on YT. I think it'd be popular.
+stoppsi it's caused by unequal length halfshafts. A longer halfshaft will have more deflection (twist) under the same torque input, causing the vehicle to pull slightly in one direction.
+Bryant Rosato Well put mate
it can also be caused by worn out, or unequally worn out, lower control arm bushings.
+Fenriz Wulf
That would cause bad alignment so it would be going in its on direction anyways
Bryant Rosato Surely the simple fix is to tune the diameter of the longer halfshaft up a bit to reduce the angle of twist to match the other shaft. Why don't they do that?
So thinking of a set of wheels on my 135i. 18x9.5 with 255 tires. The only people I've seen with this setup at running -3 degree camber in the front with 35 offset wheels with a 5 mm spacer. So in order to not run a spacer, I think I should get a 30 offset wheel?? I'm pretty confused on offsets and also spacers, just looking for advice really. Or is it 40 offset that will be the same at 35 w/ a 5 mm spacer?
Any help on this topic would be awesome!
I was considering to put 1.25 spacers to my tacoma, luckily on my reasearch I came across your video. I love how my truck rides is perfect to me, and adding those might change it. I don't want to do that want to keep this baby bone stock as possible. So thanks for the info and will definitely consider your points. Will support you on you helpful videos.
This is the best video on the internet explaining spacers. It's a must-watch for anyone considering adding spacers
Thank you for doing a pros and cons video about this. I've been going back and forth trying to figure out whether I want to add these to my Silverado or not, and this was very informative.
I love coming back to these old EE videos. They have shaped a lot of my understanding of automotive engineering and continue to be a great resource.
Any supporting evidence as to how much #3 and #4 are affected? Just as how a spacers add wider track and lessen lateral load, but so minimally, I am wondering how detrimental the affects are on the suspension geometry as well as wheel bearing load/life.
Great video, btw.
Unfortunately it's really a case by case scenario, different cars will have different outcomes. I haven't seen data or testing done to know how detrimental the effects could be, just looking at it from a logical standpoint of what physically changes.
Engineering Explained Makes sense, thanks for responding as always.
+Engineering Explained So, if I put 15 mm spacers on an R35 GT-R just to make it look a bit meaner and give it that more muscular presence, how bad will it affect the performance? I'm asking because I know the level of engeneering that was put into that car and everything was developed in order to deliver max performance.
+Armando Alves if you have enough $ for a gtr why half ass with spacers. buy wider rims and tires with correct offset and backspacing. a larger traction patch is the single greatest upgrade anyone can do.
Jonathan Pham Yup, you're totally right. Didn't think of that. Thanks.
Seen a 7 year vid.. Thank you for all the real knowledge and information. congrats to your channel. Many more years to come
From an engineering point of view I agree with everything you are saying... considering the safety factor that is built into all vehicle components what is the real effect when spacers are used on vehicles that are mostly daily drivers... surely it cannot be that bad? Of course there are limits but will these limits be that easily exceeded by the ordinary motorist?
If it helps, I’m running 10mm front and 20mm rear spacers on my Fiesta for 7 years daily now and my bearings and suspension are as fine as if it had ran without spacers
@@krinkedsurface Hows the Fiesta holding up ??
Best description of benefits vs drawbacks I’ve seen about spacers.
just an FYI if you align it and fix the caster then turning won't be as difficult and the tire wear won't change. you may need to change some arms to adjustable arms so that you can get those adjustments, but then it will wear the tires properly. I run an alignment shop with 30 years of experience there, we can get tires to wear properly no matter what kind of mods you do to your car.
+Jared Weldy Thanks for sharing your insight!
You should probably do a video on caster and the importance of it, also for those who like to camber their wheels way negative, explain the issues with that. Less rubber contact, tire wear even with compensating toe for camber, easier to hydroplane the car, and many other issues for ride quality and handling.
Engineering Explained but I will say not a lot of people will catch the fact that the bearing will wear faster with the issues of spacers... another idea is the huge rims issues... I aligned a car that had 26" rims, we had to weld and reinforce both sides of the frame (the frame was broken on the right front where the lower control arm bolts on due to the wheels), replace all ball joints and tie rods due to the excessive size of the rim it was wearing it all extremely fast since the small car wasn't meant to handle that force of turning when moving with the wheels. Just trying to turn the vehicle while going 25 was extremely suprising. The centrifugal force of the rims make you slow down considerably to make turns otherwise it won't cut it. Plus the rotors were warping and needed a big brake kit or really good rotors to avoid the warping when trying to slow the car down. The bill came to about 3k due to the hours spent on it.
Jared Weldy Done and done! Too much negative camber: ua-cam.com/video/xM8jwyrdy04/v-deo.html
Caster: ua-cam.com/video/Gh7gWJAvOvs/v-deo.html
+Engineering Explained dude question. can u stack wheels spacers??? specifically 2 50mm to make 100mm. i know thats crazy but just asking. maybe make a vid about it
Thank you for this video! i was considering getting wheel spacers for better looks and stance, but didn't know that it can affect my car in so many ways. Thanks for the good explanation.
I’ve done it in all my cars to bring the tire flush with the side of the car and it makes such a big difference!!!
So how is it different to have a 10mm spacer vs changing your wheel offset by 10mm? Won't you get all of the same geometry changes? I have run a 10mm spacer on all four wheels on a car that's done track, autocross, daily driving, vmax, and never noticed any poor wear on tires bearings or suspension.
wheel spacers can also decrease the scrub radius (and everthing associated with it) as some cars have king pin geometry that puts the scrub radius to the outside of the wheel centerline. Also, the spring rates affects, and everything else mentioned in section 3 after the king pin/scrub radius part, is affected about as little as the lateral load transfer. The only affect a driver would feel from wheel spacers is the scrub radius change, everything else is too small of a change to feel from behind the wheel (although your wheel bearings may feel it).
Also worth noting is everything mentioned in this video is general wheel offset information. For example if you have a +10 offset wheel and a +20 offset wheel with a 10mm spacer (all else being equal), both wheel will have the same affect on the rest of the car and geometry. The +10 wheels with no spacers aren't gonna magically put less load on your wheel bearings. I know this part sounds simple but I've had to explain it to a surprising amount of people.
+Bob Last this vid should really be called low wheel offset basics, because there's really nothing spacer specific in it, just what the affects of the lower offset as the result of the spacers.
+Bob Last exactly. this video could be renamed "run stock wheels and tires for ultimate performance!"
lol
the negative effects on suspension geometry and bearing load would be the same whether you used a 2" spacer or simply got new wheels with 2" more offset then. Either way you're moving the the load 2" outboard so my question is, are there any negatives between using a spacer or using a wheel with the same offset that the spacer would provide?
Honda owner are watching this saying "wut" near factory offset? blasphemy
jordan rodriguez lol
as a Honda owner, I can confirm this lol
If you put a wheel with a different offset ,
Is that also bad ?
Or better ?
Does using wheels with less offset also affect the scrub radius in the same way as spacers do?
I'm thinking yes.
Thanks for the great engineering explanation. I tried some spacers for a short time and noticed some of the effects you mentioned. I removed the spacers after a few days and now that Ive seen your knowlegeable report I know that was the right move. Thanks!
well done video man. another item to cover is increased rotational weight. rotational weight has a much higher impact of the performance of a car than static weight. while wheel spacers might only add a few pounds per wheel, the impact could be much greater because it is weight added to a rotating assembly.
Yes but the rotating mass is very close to the center of the hub which has less of an impact than if it were further away from the hub center. Either way you are correct.
A few weeks ago, I installed some wheel spacer but recently I removed them. The main reason is because I just didn't trust them on my car, I felt like my wheel was going to come off when driving. I did install it properly, there were no crazy vibrations. I noticed my car performed better with the wheel spacers off vs with them on. My car drives more smoothly with the spacers off. If you look at the risks vs benefits of having wheel spacers, I personally feel the risks are far greater than the benefits.
You were very good and scientifical when u talked about the "advantage" in stability. Its there, but really small, as u said. And then u went for the disadvantages. U talked about a lot of theory, but how much of this theory is actually there? 1%?
I really wish that when talking about topics like this people would also bring up that it’s not just specific to wheel spacers. The same concept applies to aftermarket wheels that have a lower offset as well. I hear so many people talk about how you can’t use wheel spacers because the ruin your bearings; that you should just get wheels in the offset that you want but it’s the same exact thing. People just falsely believe that it’s the spacer that is bad and not the effects that it causes.
You will also generally need extended lugs with spacers. It can be dangerous when people use the stock lugs since there's less threads available for the lug nuts to grab onto. Aftermarket wheels in the offset you're trying to get with spacers don't have this problem.
For thinner spacers like 5-10mm this is true. With 15-25mm they come with their own studs though.
wheel adapters can be good if you are doing a solid axle swap on a truck. going from a 5x4.5 to a 5x5.5 bolt paturn in the front. you can put some wheel adapter on the back so that you don't have to change the rear end if you alreasy have gears and locker set up in that axle
On my evo i had hubcentric spacers so no pressure was put on the studs, i understand some spacers are not hubcentric and can result in a disaster. My opinion a good quality hubcentric spacers will be okay for daily driving i wouldnt track my car with them. Also make sure everything sits flush the spacer to the hub the studs are not pushing on the wheel etc etc
+Engineering Explained good video, I changed from 6.5Jx16" ET55 to 8Jx17" ET35 + 20mm spacers. This makes it ET15 right? How badly would the scrub radius be increased ? Been like this for 1 year, and done 1 full track day too. And spot on : I do have instability under heavy braking, however grip&handeling it's much better. A lot less understeer to be felt my wrx sti.
+18bagabooo Have you gotten an alignment and reset the specs after putting on spacers?
Not at all. I was supposed to, but most places in UK only do Toe alignment and no camber. it was one of them jobs that never really got around to do it.
18bagabooo That's the problem then. The instability isn't caused by a scrub radius change. That is a very minute change that can only be felt under hard acceleration out of corners.
Using spacers creates more leverage on control arms. More leverage means that you change your static ride height ever so slightly. If the ride height changes the alignment specs all change.
If you haven't lowered your car camber is not an issue. The change in toe is the issue. Look at what the stock specs are and adjust for that. If you like it then keep it or adjust further from there. I guarantee your toe is off by quite a huge margin.
When I did my car the rear was set to 0.05 toe out stock but then moved to 0.25 toe out after I lowered it. The car cornered very well but was way to aggressive and would lose the back end sometimes.
Get an alignment and you'll see the difference.
18bagabooo You should buy adjustable camber arms and bolts to change the full geometry. Plenty of places in the UK do this. I've had mine done for fast road driving and the difference is night and day
Been running a set on my Ford van since I bought it. They work, it puts the back wheels in line with the front wheels. Better ride, very rarely get stuck.
It seems that there are many people who do this for appearance sake alone. From the hack jobs I've seen on the street, this crowd has no clue to the engineering that is behind the design decisions they are challenging.
Great video
Tks
Can you please tell me how much more load will be on a wheel bearing with a 1.2 inch spacer ?
Is it 1or 2 percent more load
Or 20 to 30 percent more load.....
Best of tnks
Hey man! I've got a question. Could I prevent excessive wear on suspension and other components by getting a proper wheel alignment after I installed wheel spacers?
Spacer shouldn't change alignment at all
QUESTION.
May be late to the party but anyway here goes... In light of the negatives you've explained, what would be the better option between buying a wheel with a smaller offset or using spacers???? Say the aim is to increase track and\or use wider wheels and\or achieve a flush look on the fender edge with the tire.
Thanks in advance 😊
Thanks for the info , I'm going to put it in my car anyway 😁
Yeah me too.. 😅
How did it go ? I want to put some on mine but I watch videos like these and I’m like idk no more
I don't think the negative effects would be that noticeable on a daily driver with nice roads. It would look cool if you had a nice set of rims to show off.
I put the 4mm for each of my rear wheel. Im taking corner like never before
Thanks, great summary of the impacts of using wheel spacers. the additional wear on the bearings is the biggest factor for me. when the manufacturer designed the suspension geometry, the wear characteristics and lifespan of the parts would also have been a consideration.
I've been interested in spacers recently and you released the video JUST in time! Thank you EE.
Obviously, everything depends on the size (thickness) of the spacer & what vehicle.
Let's say someone wants to use a spacer on a "top heavy" SUV that does NOT have any stability control, etc. Wouldn't winding the track say 1/2"-1" (?) with a spacer technically help stability because the track is now wider?
As others have pointed out, what about adding a wider tire (I know going one size wider would not cause any "scrub").
Lastly, technically, what about the effects of both a spacer & going up one size in width? All with the goal in mind to decrease "top heaviness."
As far as spring rates, I can get basically an unlimited number of spring types, both factory & aftermarket (stiffer &/or stock-3" lift). The vehicle in question is an old Land Rover.
Thanks & keep up the Vids!
Dang really glad you made this video.
Would adding 15mm wheel spacers to a car with +50 offset wheels have the same effect as putting +35 offset wheels on?
Yes
What if you just get wheels with a different offset, rather than using spacers?
+Kuya Millefune That would be a better option, as far as bearings go. Can't really give insight as to what that would do to other suspension components though.
cuz wheels are pricy and a set of spacer can be as low as 15$. yea, 15$ I dare you put on your car. but Im cool with it on my rice rocket. cuz my insurance is even more expensive than that actual car
+Tuzz Nation Waaat? In our country a set of 5 hole 20mm spacers would cost 127$.
Blue Neck Media Im being sarcastic. Yes good spacers are expensive. but 127 is kinda on the brand name side. imo, spacers are for utility vehicle. dont ruin your nice drive with it
Then you should get slightly wider wheels so that the center line doesn't change too much... Assuming there's no clearance issues on the inner wheel side with a wider wheel trying to keep the same center
I've always wondered how much you would have to screw with suspension geometry to actually notice an effect, given that the geometry changes radically as you go over the average road surface. Great video btw.
I am considering getting 1" spacers for my truck. Am I in the safe zone with 1"?
I am considering half inch to one inch for my R170 SLK, would love to know if the increased load on the suspension is okay, or not.
I agree with most of what you said, but one thing I notice, is that adding a spacer would have the same effect as adding a lowset wheel since the actual tire is pushed out. nevertheless great video!
thanks for the info dad
Glad to see a vid on this but two problems.
1. Adding spacers does not necessarily reduce the spring rate. It increases the compression forces on the upper arm and the tension forces on the lower arm. The specifics of the geometry of the links will determine whether the effective spring rate is slightly increased or reduced. In a normal suspension the difference would be very minor.
2. The diagram showing a moment load on the bearings assumes a significant negative rim offset before the spacers are even put on. On most if not all production vehicles the standard offset is positive or significantly positive.
I enjoy watching your videos, sometimes they put me in the right general direction when looking for info! One comment I would like to make is regarding the old chestnut on how "engineers designed the car the best it could be, etc., etc.". News flash, car business is about bottom line and in 99.9% cases. The only driver is how to manufactore it the cheapest and so it doesnt fall apart before the warranty expires. Performance is the last thing on their minds, notable exception are performance models like M-series, AMG, and so on. There are some tests done by enthusiasts in Europe where they gathered together a number of fellow petrolheads owning the same car in different modification stages, perhaps best was m135i test. I write this to respond to your maths line where you claim track widening is neglidible in terms of grip increase. This might be so, I cannot be bothered to run the numbers really. On the same note have you run the numbers on how much difference would an increase of say 20mm per wheel effect on said lever arm force? You would find it negligible as well :)! That's one thing. The other is handling characteristics. Even if your mentioned physics maths calcs prove the theoretical grip increase is low I am pretty confident you would struggle in the handling characteristics department. This is where a driver gets the confidence to push from and times on track drop massively. To sum up the lowest times were recorded by cars with widened track and lowered suspension, not the ones with more power or better brakes. Tyres were if not the same then all of the performance variety. Driver and passenger were the same. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to knock you and your vids can only be so long. It is worth to perhaps get out from behind the (in front of?) a white board (and you do need a bigger one and perhaps somebody to do the drawings for you ;)) and check stuff in real life. If you are planning to keep driving your car for over 100k miles then do not modify it at all, just service religiously and tune it from time to time. Otherwise stop worrying and slap on those (high quality hub centric) spacers and take great pleasure from better stance and (disputably) improved handling characteristics.
Keep up the good work!
Was thinking of lowering my MK7 GTI but after watching this my decision to stay as it is, is a good thing. Thanks bro u have save me some money and time.
shoot :( but they look so cool! do small ones really effect it that much? say 5-10mm?
Following
I used to have a Jeep Patriot (too broke to get a real jeep). I wanted to increase my clearance, so I went from 215's to 235's. This definitely gave me better clearance, but had a couple of issues, such as the tranny overheating at high speeds uphill, slower acceleration (but I actually saw an increase in gas mileage when on the highway), but the main issue was my tires rubbing against the wheel well.
To prevent the rub, I installed 1-3/8" spacers (had to have them custom cut in order for the hubcentric ring to fit in the wheel). Not only did this prevent the wheels from rubbing, it also allowed me to take corners faster than I could previously. Corners that I would normally take at 45 I could now take at 50. I'm guessing this is because the wider track gave me a lower center of gravity. So the pros for the wheel spacers would be to prevent tire rubbing (which extends the tire life and allows a sharper turn radius), and a way to compensate for the higher center of gravity due to oversized tires. However, this is a cheap fix that could cause issues down the road.
Both of these benefits could be achieved by purchasing wheels with a different offset. My biggest concern is premature wheel bearing failure. If you're thinking of spacers, the question to ask yourself is if you want to pay now and do it right with better wheels, or pay later by replacing bearings. If you're mechanically inclined and can replace bearings yourself, then using spacers is the cheaper option. If not, you're looking at about $200-$300 per bearing, which is about how much you would pay per wheel in the first place.
What about the wider track for an off-road car? How beneficial are they for off-road stability against flipping?
First of all, sorry if I make mistakes, english is not my first language ... I think a wider track will improve the stability for and off-road car, but just a little, and you have to consider that you will punish your axles and another parts a lot. So if you dont mind about fixing or changing something before time, you should do it.
After lifting a car, especially a relatively narrow one, having a wider track is a must , otherwise the car will roll easily. But I wanted to know hat is the best.
It's true that the spacers will put more strain on the car parts, but there's no other way to deal with this.
Wheels with a low positive offset or a negative offset and a fat tire with some sizable sidewall are an alternative
Bat5.0 lower offset wheels equal wheel spacers because the forces will change the same way, they are just more reliable.
I did a square set up on my E46 M3 and did 9.5 rear tires all the way around for my 27 off set. The fronts stick out more so I added spacers in the rear to help equal it out but they don't make spacers big enough to make it perfectly equal and with at 20mm spacer I rub when going over bumps so I leave it at 15. But going from staggered to a square set up doubles my pilot super sport tire warranty which saves me lots of money well as being able to rotate my tires. With more rubber in the front I can stop quicker and have zero body roll and under steer where I used to have it.
you earned a new subscriber
+Lego-mijn S.D Happy to hear it!
Engineering Explained 😀
Keep it up!! these are little details we never think before making a suspension "upgrade". I really appreciate your enthusiasm to maintain these terms simple to understand, obviously with a previous engineering knowledge it can be more clear.
Should I put spacers on my BRZ with the stock wheels? My friends keep telling me to get spacers. And I'm thinking of lowering it too with lowering springs, but your other video doesn't suggest doing that either haha. Coilovers are too expensive for me.
Po Russki do it buy spacers I have a subaru brz aswell with spacers check my videos
If you do decide on going with lowering springs and spacers you should install your springs first. Once you have installed your springs you need to drive it for about a week or 2. This will cause the new springs to compress and settle in. Once your new springs have settled in you can begin to measure how much room you have to install a spacer that won't rub.
Cheers
Po Russki do ask tjhunt that question, he's got a brz and it's getting mods on his channel
Akber Jafferi he never answers my questions
Po Russki tjhunt? well sorry, I'm guessing he is a lil busy tho. have you asked his friend Calvin? Calvin owns the tron BRZ, though I'm not sure if he uses spacers on his rims.
This guy speaks clearly and has great presentation skills. Keep it up.
this video doesn't tell you what to do with your car, he's just telling you what happens if you do modify your car. Yeah wheel spacers help, like a spare tire, but if you do decide to use wheel spacers on the long run, you'll get consequences. any car mods comes at a cost, you pay cheap now and break things later down the line, or spend the extra money, get a better aftermarket wheel offset and lighter wheels, and you will have that same load on the bearing as stock but with bigger, cooler looking wheels. I'm not talking about cheap China imitation wheels, but engineered wheels like BBS, HRE, or something the likes down this manufacturer lines.
Hi engineering explained, it would be great if you can speak about custom wheels for performance cars. Issues like for example what are the major specs you should consider when choosing custom wheels for performance reasons: cast/forged, size, offset, weight, tire rubbing, sidewall height. One question I have is going from a 24 lbs 18" wheel to a 24 lbs 19" wheels with the same offset and overall tire diameter, which wheel will have faster performance, or are they exactly the same?
Any updates on the integra?
+Denis Santiesteban bump
+brandoGTR48 .. integra Vtech!
+Z LedgaRRage Vtec*
+Aleek91 Vtec Yo!
When I saw the title to this video, I was wondering if the subject of wheel bearings would be covered? It did to my satisfaction.
I recall back in the 1960s being first aware of wider wheels having detrimental effects on wheel bearings. In the US Can Am race series, Bruce McLaren had a nearly invincible race car with the McLaren M6A. One of the notable features with the M6A was in its wheel hub design to use wider wheel rims/tires than what were on the Lola T70 race cars. The teams with the T70s copied the M6A with using wider wheel rims on the wheel hubs not designed for the width; where the T70s promptly had problems with wheel bearings failures.
Well thanks for shattering all my hopes and dreams...😏 lol
Rick Willard The negative effect and positive effects are not significant, it's minimal I fact, he said it himself at the beginning. I wouldn't go beyond 5 or 6 mm.
Rick Willard your delts are godly bro
The negative effects would actually be more notable than the positive ones, since the negatives are produced from a relatively larger change than the positive effects are.
To better explain, an extra 20mm on either side of the vehicle will increase stance by some incredibly small percentage over the relatively large total distance between the wheels...
However, the same 20mm added on to the hub will be a much larger change when measured against the individual suspension components, since everything is much closer inside each wheel well.
@@ek07305 a lot of 370z owners run 15, 20, and 25mm spacers. I could use 15mm spacers once I get my new rims put on to get flush w/ the fender fitment but I think i'll pass cuz of these negative effects listed
If your wanting to make them wider, check your offset of stock wheels , and see how far that takes you from 0 offset,
Another related issue with wheel spacers that didn't get mentioned - When people use wheel spacers that are thicker than the amount of length the hub center is sticking out past the flat wheel mating surface. In such cases, the wheel is not longer in contact with the OD of the hub center, and only relying on the studs for alignment. I know some wheel spacers include a secondary hub center to deal with this, but I see many flat spacers used that don't have this feature, and they seem rather unsafe, given that wheel loads no longer get transferred through the wheel center, not to mention potential alignment issues. Excellent video though, thanks!
that sniper though . . . always well centered between his eyes . . .
hahahahahah
Do you think going from a 2016 WRX stock wheel size of 17x8 +55 to 18x9 +40 will have a noticeable effect (or compromise in any way) on handling, acceleration, or braking? It's essentially like adding a 20mm spacer and slightly wider tires, correct? I'm asking you because I trust your judgement far more than that of the NASIOC community. I'm not really into modding the car or anything I just want to use the stock wheels for snow tires and thought I could go a little bit wider with the summer tires. I am a subscriber by the way.
Spacer + Rims with higher offset than original rims will not affect (3) Suspension Geometry, just saying.
Lansdrow it would because the lever arm on the bearing is still greater as the studs of the spacer bear the weight and stranger it onto the hub and that interface is farther away from the center axis of the bearing.
Hi! I have a lot of questions. The leverage is putting strain on the bearing and suspension because of weight. Will weight reduction minimize stress? Is changing to high performance suspension and high performance bearing equates to level of handling the leverage? Is there an equation to measure stress? Sorry hooked on this video
Nailed it...
just a simple question....adding spacers to the wheels will give a negative effect resulting in damaging your car? Or will it not effect much...??
jeesus I feel like I'm in math class.
Bro, I was considering getting spacers until I saw your video. Thanks for the info!!
if spacers are so bad why do they put them on 1 ton dual wheel pickups their are 6" spacers on the front of mine from the factory
If they are from factory you are at least sure that someone thought them through and the components can handle the increased load.
I also imagine pickups have tougher suspensions than say family cars.
spacers aren't intrinsically bad. the point is that the car is engineered to work as best the designers could make it with certain spacing, and if you change the spacing, the forces become different, and might be suboptimal compared to the original design.
Great video but i think one area where i dont agree on is the spacers only making a 1-2% difference in grip due to better load transfer etc... From personal experience and even professional drifters doing it making the front have a wider track is much better. Look into Tuerck Fitment :) he goes extremely wide. I on the other hand stick to 25mm spacers and it is definitely a difference you can feel... especially if you have wide tires 8.5"-9.5" (front)
+MVTTIC And he's using a kit to extend the wheels out so he can increase the steering angle.
or you could just get different offset wheels
Thank you very much before I watched this video I thought people do it for looks, I knew that they had a negative like tire wear and wider track but didn't know it could change your suspension geometry that much or cause stress to wheel bearings
god damn....thx for killing my dreams of wider tyre look....ill just stick to stock then 😔
you can always opt for wheels with shorter backspacing. it may be a better option than spacrrs, but anytime you modify a car you're always going to run into little opportunities for increased wear
Get some good offset wheels
I was thinking the same thing but, hypothetically speaking. if you went with a negative offset wheel to let's say gain 2" wouldn't it affect the geometry of the suspension just as a 2" wheel spacer?
The whole point is to not spend as much money on a new set of wheels and just giving it a wider appearance
Alejandroof I'm only doing it to fit a set of rims that don't fit on my car 4x100 to 4x114.3😂
Thank you so much for the information that you made it easy for a layman like me to understand. What if i just need 3-5 mm to ley me wheels clear the brake calipers? As long as it’s properly cnc and studs are lengthened, torqued to specs, will 3-5 mm be statistically different enough to affect the geometry? I also look at it in a different way. If i buy another exact same model of the wheel with extra 5mm offset wouldn’t it be an extra bit of material at the wheel’s face like the spacer being welded to the face of rim
So basically wheel spacers are mostly bad.
But they look good with widebody kits tho
All right but what I would add to your considerations is a confront between the moment you're gonna subject the bearing to with the spacer lever and tyre load, and the moment the bearing is subjected when you're going through a corner with relevant acceleration. Assuming the lateral load on the tyre is the same of the vertical (with a road tyre) the lever would be half of the night of your wheel, so the bearing would be subjected to a by far higher moment.I've never used to fit or advice spacers, but I'm still looking for a relevant reason to avoid doing that.
you need a graphic designer for better illustration
Ali Sami why don’t you try and do a better job. Haven’t seen your illustration on it?? Then shut up.
I put some 10 mm spacers on my BMW Chump Car and did notice some slight improved lap times. Tire wear was a problem but did not cause a safety issue. I still use them on my car for track days.