March of the Black Queen Class Tier List
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2021
- Time for another one, Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen this time, and we're covering both versions! Is it an SRPG? Is it an rts? It's something, and it's fun, that I know.
- Ігри
I'm seeing a lot of comments where people couldn't manage ALI/CHA. ALI/CHA (outside of Tarot effects) will only change from items or kills.
Alignment Formula:
Enemy's Level - Character's Level + Class Bonus + ALI Bonus = ALI change
Class Bonus is basically a number between -3 and +3 (think +3 for Wraiths/Phantoms and -3 for Monks/Seraphims) Doll Mages/Valks are -1 while Ninja/Beastman are +1
ALI Bonus is basically how far down the rabbit hole you are (if you're already evil, you will naturally push to be more evil and vice versa for holiness) for example, if you're 80+ ALI you naturally get a +3 ALI bonus for every kill you do.
So as an example. If you take a lvl 10 Cleric with 80 ALI and she kills 4x lvl 16 Phantoms with her healing... (a little unlikely though because their high level might help them dodge her "attack")
She will get 16-10+3+3 = 12 ALI per phantom that she kills. This is why Clerics can skyrocket in ALI so easily once you start meeting the ghosts squads like Pogram Forest and Shangrila
CHA Formula:
Enemy is 2 or more levels higher: +8
Enemy is 1 level higher.........: +6
Enemy is same level as character: +4
Enemy is 1 level below..........: +2
Enemy is 2 levels below.........: +0
Enemy is 3 levels below.........: -2
Enemy is 4 levels below.........: -4
Enemy is 5 levels below.........: -6
Enemy is 6 levels below.........: -8
Source: gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/588541-ogre-battle-the-march-of-the-black-queen/faqs/23631 (Brian Sulphers guide on GameFaqs) and I've confirmed most of the numbers are more/less true in my own playthroughs.
You can't have the full completion of collecting all heroes (Galf+Deneb included) unless you know how to manage your ALI/CHA
I do remember when I first played OB MotBQ I had the same problem as others with my wizards being too evil to turn into mages. The secret is to keep them same level/below the enemy levels so your CHA hits 100 easily. Now you're probably thinking "hey, won't their ALI go up then?" It won't as long as you make the wizard fight "holy things". One of the biggest misconceptions IMO is where you need a "Bully unit" to be bad. Instead what I typically did was I made half my squads evil and half my squads good. They just moved together as a buddy system (1 evil squad + 1 good squad). If the enemy was clerics/knights, I back my good squad away and let the evil squad fight/kill it. If the enemy was wizards/imps, I back my evil squad away and let the good squad kill/fight it.
For anyone that is interested in this channel, Coffee Potato is reporting news about Tactics Ogre Reborn as well as several analysis on the classes and other very interesting stuff!
As far as witch stun or cockatrice petrify ability chance goes, it depends on level. If you're higher level, your odds go up a lot, if you're lower level, the odds go down a lot. This is why witches and cockatrices are dangerous enemies and useless allies; in order to keep your reputation high you have to remain under levelled. If you purposefully overlevel a unit you can steamroll the enemy easily of course, but you'll tank your reputation if you make a bully goon squad to do that.
"If you're higher level, your odds go up a lot"
So lower chance but higher effect? Strange system for a game
@@Alianger not sure how you've interpreted what I said, but to try to make it clear, if your witch or cockatrice is a higher level than the enemy, the chances that they will successfully stun or petrify the enemy are good. A higher level witch will usually stun multiple enemies, and a higher level cockatrice will successfully petrify the enemy more than 50% of the time. If they are lower level the opposite is true, lower level witches will usually miss their stuns and lower level cockatrices will usually fail to petrify.
Since their abilities are very all-or-nothing, either they hit and have a devastating effect, or they miss and do nothing, being higher level is more important for these units than other units, who will do less damage if they are lower level, but will not do nothing at all. A well put together unit of lower level units can still reliably defeat a higher level enemy unit because the enemy units are often illogically constructed, with archers on the front line and knights in the back, only putting in 4 characters instead of 5, etc. But if your lower level unit relies on witches or cockatrices that will usually miss and do nothing at all to higher level enemies, even their illogically put together units will be able to defeat you.
Since the game has a reputation system where you will gain more benefits from having a higher reputation which relies on people seeing you as the "plucky underdog", putting together a few super units of higher level characters and using them to steamroll the enemy is tactically very strong and works very well, but it tanks your reputation. You could make a very powerful unit of witches or cockatrices by leveling them up above the enemy, but it would harm your reputation to do so, so it's discouraged.
As a result, witches and cockatrices are dangerous enemies because the enemy will, if you are managing your reputation, always have higher levels than you. However they are poor choices for your own army because in order to make them effective, you have to over level them, which tanks your reputation. Other character types which can function well even when they are a lower level are a much better choice.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, yeah that makes more sense.
I read further down about someone balancing low and high ali units for overall positive rep, maybe I'll try that on my next playthrough.@@nHautamaki
@@Alianger I strongly recommend that. If most of your units are same or under leveled compared to the enemy, but a few are overleveled, then most of your fights will end up with positive rep gain. Naturally your under-leveled units will gravitate towards high charisma, high alignment and your high level units will go evil/low charisma, so just keep that in mind as they develop and work towards class promotions.
That's what I did and honestly it made the game a bit too easy from around mid-game onwards. I forgot about how cockatrices worked though and I don't think they petrified a single unit haha. Next time I'll probably try the army rebalancing mod@@skarlock5257
A nice way to use Mermaid/Nixie and Octopus/Kraken units is to take them down rivers and park them right next to bridges that the enemy ground units are using. Since they're sitting still in the river, the moving enemy units are forced to fight them in the water, as opposed to the usual halfway point between two moving units. Also, the Imp/Demon/Devil line is actually much like Phantoms/Ghosts but without the invincibility, as they use the Nightmare attack as others have pointed out. The Devil (IIRC the name of the third upgraded unit) is especially powerful and different though because they get a hit all magic attack in the back row with the physical element like the Dollmage. Just do an Evil playthrough and pick up Galf and you'll see what I mean. I'd say they're somewhere between a Phantom and a Dollmage because they have flight and better resistance. Not criticisms by the way, just observations--loved the vid!
Very true! OB has a lot more strategy than many give it credit for.
Vampire is S Tier. Not because he is overpowered. But easily the coolest unit in the game. The Vampire completely respects the game mechanics.(day/night cycle), by turning in an almost useless coffin during the day.(know he can tank dmg, tho, but if i remember correctly the traveltime was unacceptable) This might be not as big today as it was back in the 90ies. But such details in old games are extremely rare.
Very true. Some modders were messing around in OB64 too, and made the coffin into a land boat 🤣
@@CoffeePotato Nice, in the old, but well known Polanski movie, "The Fearless Vampire Killers" there is a chasing scene with coffins used as wooden sledges!
@@zeusapollo6504 Nice!
Griffins and wyverns are essential with vampires.
Honestly I quickly learned to make 10 flying units, speed on the battlefield map is an overlooked power, with 10 flying units and minor previous knowledge of the level you can easily fully destroy each unit without an regenerating, without locking a single battle.
Complete control, damn it I’m going to have dig out my PS
Wizards promote to mages with 1 aoe, mages can promote to sorceror to get 2 aoe elemental spells with an undead book. The undead ring gives them the 3 aoe as lich.
I wonder if this possibly changed between versions, for some reason I recall the mage still being single target...but it's very likely you're right.
@@CoffeePotato I'm fairly sure the Mage already gets 1 AoE spell in every version, yeah.
I've mostly played the PS1 version of this game, though.
Ah yes the coveted Undead ring. I think you could only find via 1 treasure and the merchant item on Snes
This is correct, except it is a staff, not a book. You turned in the book(lexicon) to the guy on the first real map to get a ring from him if I recall.
The hardest part of making a wizard into a lich is keeping there ALI above 9(10 minimum) before they got to level 10, but tanking it far enough for the upgrade to mage.
Wizard
Mage
Sorcerer
Lich
Sorcerer can call skeletons and ghosts at whim. Lich does the "gold" upgraded versions at whim and is tough as nails compared to the previous classes. Liches are a lot of work but are stupid powerful.
@@jcmoney11111 staffs and rings dropped as random loot from defeated units, like any treasure including the anywhere Jack merchant card.
This is what I like about the internet. There's this old game I like and none of my friends seem to have even heard of, do a search and realise there's a metric fuckton of depth I didn't even know existed. And people making content about that. Thanks for the video.
Love that this game is still seeing some play! I have a few major disagreements though.
For starters, the Pumpkinhead has one huge advantage that you completely overlooked: they have the highest HP of all Wizard-type units, meaning you can use them as tanks in the Front Row with an Angel or Ghost to give your party Low Flying. I'd say that's enough for a B.
Base Faeries are garbage. They're actually in a unit group below Wizard-types, meaning unless you have a party that's 100% consisting of Faeries, you need something else to have Low Flying mobility. Hawkmen > Faeries for this reason. Their HP is also garbage so they can't sponge anything in the Front Row. And the less that's said about their Back Row attack Kiss, the better. The AOE Holy Damage of the Sylyph is still very good, but the grind to actually reaching Sylyphs isn't worth it when the Seraphim is barely a downgrade. E-tier at most (Sylyph can stay in A though).
Golems are also terrible. Easily the worst units in the game. Their HP is the lowest of all units making them horrible tanks, their accuracy is laughable, and they cost two whole unit slots because they're Beasts. 3 Front Row attacks might sound nice, but considering they take 2 whole slots, you could just as easily have 6 Paladin attacks, or 4 Pumpkins. Other Beasts can make up for their lack of attacks with good bulk, but Golems die to pretty much any Magic. Hard F-tier.
Nixie is admittedly the worst AOE attacker in the game, but having an AOE attack should at the very least be enough to put her above garbage like the Dragoner or Golem. D-tier feels fair, even if she is just a Mage downgrade.
Besides these things, this was a great video. Looking forward to the Mermaid run.
I have to disagree with you on a few of these but one of the biggest differences is the werewolf and vampire. The Vampire is a SOLID tank that heals itself while dealing damage at night and takes practically 0 damage during the day. Yeah, they don't attack during the day but they are almost impossible to damage as well while in their coffin. The Werewolf however does not do that great of damage, misses often, and turns into a fighter during the day and will die super fast. Also the Doll Mage is the first class you will get that hits everyone. Yes it deals PHYSICAL, (not EARTH) magic but you know what is super weak to that, Mages. It's great for taking out back row mages and just dealing lots of damage overall in the early part of the game. Don't load up on them but 1 or 2 isn't bad.
You know, I never knew Acid counted as physical and not earth, that's neat! Also explains a lot. Also, there may be more to the Vampire thing. During my last run, I somehow got 2 back to back Blood Spells early, used them on Ashe and Lans. Lans did great, Ashe became useless. No clue what the deal was there.
I agree with this, great counterpoint. Those vampire coffins are nigh untouchable which makes them a great tank!
@@dtnuh Wooden tank? *Armored Core did it too*
A fighter with only one front row attack, at that.
The blood steal moves can be boosted through attack weapons
I think skeletons should be a tier lower than ghosts. Only because ghost units fly, and skeleton ones don't.
Not if we rate them by calcium to fiber ratio 🤔
curse you, the jiggle physics line may or may not have convinced me to fire up the emulator!
Amazons trying to stay relevant in 2023 like...
Also, Princesses add 1 attack to each character, including herself, if she's the unit leader. They don't double the number of attacks. And Monks are probably S-tier, because any unit with a Monk is almost invincible.
True, and mistakes were inevitable. No matter how many years I play these, or how many videos I make, I always whiff somewhere. Just like how through all this I've never covered the absurd amount of upgrades in the Saturn version that we'll never get to play stateside.
The neat things about MotBQ is that the gameplay mechanics allow you to play in such a wide variety of different styles and your ranking of these units will be totally dependent upon your own play style.
Personally, my unit rankings would be much different but that's largely due to my own play style.
Absolutely, it's awesome like that!
welp, nobody can argue with where the princess is. once you get her, all balance gets thrown out the window. I just recently played through the snes version and found 4, four crowns from random drops. plus the guaranteed one it gives you, had 5 units led by princess. i just kept switching my healers into princesses, going princess, 2 muse, 2 paladin.
i also had 3 liches. .but only 1 dragoner, you can tell what i traded my sentoul demons for. .
@@Femaiden It does feel fantastic, though.
Vampires are strong as fuck. They are possibly the best tank in the game as unlike ghosts and skeletons they can't just be dispelled. They take 1 damage from all attacks when in their coffin, basically negating half the enemy front line. When awake at night they take about half as much damage as most other front line units, and lifesuck keeps them at full HP regardless. A unit led by vampires can be sent alone into the middle of the enemy army and be fine for days. Werewolves are very strong for similar reasons. They have excellent defense at day or night, so even though day werewolf can't do 3 hits, he's still a great tank.
Yup, definitely got a lot more appreciation for them over the years.
Ah the game that got me into the series on the Wii virtual console, glad I still have that wii also.
Also got the crown for the princess on the first map, excluding tutorial, from an enemy drop when playing recently.
The amazon doesn't have jiggle physics. I mean, the BOW does, but...
There were some version exclusives 🤣
@@CoffeePotato Ah, I see.
Fun to see this game getting more love in 2021. Great vid.
Agreed! I owned this game on the SNES and will never get tired of seeing videos/gameplay/chat about it/etc.
there's new game called unicorn overlord and it's just like ogre battle. check it out you will love it
@@helldronez I saw! Thanks man. So stoked.
@@professorretro1120 there's also symphony of war but it's made by indie gamedev so give it a try too
The issue with Samurais and Samurai Masters is they are fragile and damage themselves. But yes, they are good for defending towns. I'd say they are B-tier.
Pretty sure a Dragon Tamer/Dragoner can just recruit Dragons in the original Ogre Battle.
And then they promote to one of 3 types of Dragons depending on their Alignment.
(While a Dragon Master can just straight-up recruit the first tier promoted dragons)
Also, Dragoners being dudes in the first game definitely isn't a bug, and they don't have an exposed chest either.
I don't really know why they made the Dragoners a promotion to the Beast Master, though.
Reasons, probably. They did change that for the rest of the series, so given many other signs that point to it being an oversight, I'd still assume it was. Just like how many intended evolutions ended up being hidden due to being unavailable on the list unless you went to an earlier class. I straight up forget dark knights exist most of the time, because of how weird their promotion is.
Couple things:
At least in the SNES version, treasure is random. Including princess crowns, found as random drops from defeated units. I had a game with 3 princesses. Same with undead staff and rings and the anywhere Jack merchant card. Maybe this is different in the PSX version.
The princess crown should be used on a level one Amazon. You should have one in your reserves from the begining of the game. The unit is so powerful it is unlikely to die anyway and will level like crazy, and gain much better stat growth then if you use the crown on a leveld up amazon. Princess can recruit angels. Angels on their own are pretty meh, but it is almost as if they were designed to b with the princess to overcome their lack of attacks. Once they get their AOE, and then get to do it twice with the princess buff, you will have 6 AOE holy attacks, which is stupid broken. I like to use Eagle men or Raven men because they are solid units and getting three hits makes them more then good enough to fly as escorts to your holy nuke squad in the back.
I personally never used ghosts and skelly, they are boring, and avoiding enemy clerics was a pita IMO. I dunno again versions, in the SNES version a cleric's heal spell, single target or not, could wipe the entire party of undead in one go. The game treated it as an AOE attack when facing undead. Maybe thats different in PSX, dunno. Some people love them. A Sorcerer or lich can summon replacements at whim, so theres that too.
I always found werewolves to require to much investment from the merchant to compete with other classes, werewolf attacks carry a dark element so many units in the game resist them heavily. Tigermen are a cool alternative, but suck worse because they have less attacks for some reason. Vampires are a quirky unit and can be powerful or meh depending on investment.
Basic dragons are pretty meh in this game. Colored versions are only marginally better. However, the tier three dragons get to be stupid powerful. of special note, Tiamat. You can make them at level 14. They get a dark/physical AOE from the back row. One of my favorite units is a lich and two tiamat all in back, or one tiamat in back with the lich and your choice of body guards up front. Buff the dragon INT to see some real power. Undead rings make zombie dragons which gain retarded HP and have broken resists, but don;t do anything particulariliy special otherwise. The other two dragons, the fire dragons and ice dragons, don't see there high tiers until late in the game, and the last tier you wont see until the last level or maybe two, especially the platinum that requires high ALI so you can't grind it XP to get there. A salamanders Nova is potent, but you have beaten the game by the time you get one. I wish this game went on to have about 10 more missions, so the last tier upgrades could actually see play.
*Dragon AOE is a combo of physical and elements. Icecloud is a cold/phy attack. Tis allows them to bypass more resistances.
Dragoners are men. Use a Stone of Dragos on a Beast master, tada! I don't bother usually, but variety is the spice of life.
You should have one unit of a mermaid and two octopus. When you upgrade them, you get a Blizzard, and MAELSTROM, which is broken AF. There is enough water to keep this one unit on hand for many maps. You can skip it, but it is fun to see them absolutely MONCH enemy units when you can use them.
Giants need a few ACC from the merchant, then they become B tier. Titans get AOE from the back row that does physical dmg and like Gryphons uses the STR stat. Except they can do it twice instead of flying. If you are too lazy to work them up from low level, slap some STR from the merchant on them and use the two you get with Norn.
Golems are absolute trash and you should feel bad if you try to use one. You should probably erase your game if you wasted time running back and forth on a river to recruit an iron golem to your army. If you want a useless blocker for the front row that you will have to resurrect all the time just use a skeleton, at least they can hit with their attacks.
Uh... did you put the Dragoons in A tier? Did you use them? Did you put them in the front row? Each Dragoon can almost be a unit running solo they are so f'ing strong. The Dragoons and Generals should be in the front rows doing almost double the damage your paladins and samurai would be doing with three strikes. Give them a holy element treasure weapon for extra lulz. Put two of them in the front with a princess and the fight is over before they run out of attacks. There are three dragoons and two generals. You can recruit Prince Tristan. I make Opinion Leader a 3 strikes/Ianuki type and put them in front too, with Brunhild equipped it basically makes number 6.
This game is amazingly deep in it's customization and the amount of secrets to uncover, but places that on the player. You can also make a unit of three liches and some skellys and park next to the enemy base and nuke the entire enemy army without liberating a single town, but where's the fun in that? The game allows you to use as much strategy as you want to without forcing it, and many of the units play into that. You can make a nuke unit to blow the entire enemy away and fly around with Canopus at 100 ALI to liberate the whole map afterwards and get the best ending anyway, OR you can make a crap ton of varied units, liberate the map while fighting the enemy, manage your defensive lines with high ALI and low ALI for day/night, use water units, undead, werwolves and vamps.... niether is forced on you but the options are there. That is what makes this game so fun.
I thought I covered this stuff, though this video is definitely due for a redo at some point.
Level 1 Amazon Princess is great for early Faerie and Angel recruiting. Long-term, I usually use a Cleric. Princesses have crap for HP growth, the one in the Fireseal battle is really crap defensively.
@@orelas167 Fair enough. I like to do it based off of who it would be funniest to use. One time I got multiple crowns on the PS1 version, and it was just the rainbow princess squad of any female uniques I found.
Is the game even challenging?
@@sharebear421 It depends. It's got interesting scenarios that tend to be challenging to certain people, but couples that with sort of scattered resources, so the difficulty is kind of all over the place in a good way. You can control your team, but the rest is chaos. Kind of like FTL without Permadeath in a way.
I was annoyed at some of the earlier ones where you would switch them around but that happened much less as it progressed.
Missed Weretigers, and I think I remember a class called an Evil One or something that had the axe and a spin melee attack or back-row Evil Dead that hits everyone. I also remember Titans that Giants could turn into because they had a back-row ability that would hit everyone I used.
You didn't talk about the different paths for dragons:
Ice Dragons: Dragon->Silver Dragon->Gold Dragon->Platinum Dragon
Fire Dragons: Dragon->Red Dragon->Red Dragon II->Salamand
Black Dragons: Dragon->Black Dragon->Tiamat->Zombie Dragon (one of the best non-undead tanks but its attacks were all single-target/non-group from memory)
The main difference between those dragons was just their breath weapons/back-row abilities - the type of damage it did and top tier would hit all enemy units.
S
Ghost 3:18
Princess 5:12
Skeleton 10:37
Lich 17:31
Debonair/"The General" 23:07
Cockatrice (SNES) 26:18
Rashidi (Last Boss) 28:25
A
Samurai 2:15
Muse 7:06
Monk 8:15
Ninja 12:39
"Special Knights"/Paladin 12:23
Sylyph 15:01
"Upgraded Angel"/Seraph 18:55
Wyrm/Wyvern 21:46
Fogel/Dragoons 23:48 - IIRC they're all different though, so maybe not all rated the same.
Gryphon 24:55
Prince Adairs 27:46
Hikash 28:40
B
Witch 3:57
Valkyrie 6:12
Cleric 7:43
Imps & Demons 10:05
Knight 11:37
Faerie 14:36
"Upgraded Mage"/Sorcerer 20:29
"Upgraded Dragon" 24:39
Brawler 27:30
Hell Hound 30:32
Opinion Leader (Lord/Lady - Main Character) 29:22
C
Berserker 0:43
Dark Knight 1:30
Pumpkinhead 11:08
Werewolf 11:56
Bird Men 13:52
Angel 18:42
Basic Mage/Wizard 19:47
Cockatrice (PS) 26:18
D
Dragoner 8:45
Octopus 16:05
Vampire 16:50
Doll Master 19:24
Beast Master 21:18
Golem 22:34
Base Dragons 24:04
E
Amazon 4:38
Nixie 15:47
"Basic Fighters" 21:07
Giants 22:16
F
Mermaid 15:19
Lastly, IIRC you can equip certain items that would cause attacks to deal holy damage granting the ability to kill undead but there weren't a lot of them in the game and limited item slots to just one from memory.
my most favourite game out of all ogre game.
No doubt picked it back up yesterday and here's a fun tier list to look at
Nice vid! I have 5k hours in this game lol love it. Princess & Lich get a separate tier like 3 tiers above anything else. I wouldn’t rank Skeleton & Ghost so high cuz it’s a pain having to constantly babysit that they can’t face holy units but they are god tier early game.
Fair enough, I just put Ghost so high because they can win by default against so many things. Or just function as a free hit absorb.
My favorite kill everything team used to be 2 skeleton knights up front, 1 demon rear center for flying and 2 lich.
Nice mix of mobility and stopping power
You criminally underrate the value of Hawkmen and Imps when it pertains to movement speed. Being able to make your units low sky movement more than offsets any stat gain you lose by deploying these units
Maybe, but Gryphons and Faeries.
Faeries can’t lift an entire group of small units like a eagle/ravenman can. Gryphons have an entirely different use
"werewolves are either A . .or C, depending on the time. .they jump between A and C. . . if only there was a tier that was right in between A and C. . ."
Awesome list, should do a dark wizard one
"fight it out"
my best tool team was 2 griffins in back with one princess, canapus in the front with a knight/paladin.
useful for flying around gathering items and also useful to save teams that get pushed back.
My ultimate anti push back team obviously is a lich/princess unit with griffins :)
The beauty of this game is that every character's utility depends mostly on who is playing it. Although if there is someone who prefers to use a Zombie Dragon instead of a Lich, there is something seriously wrong going on! LOL. Love this video man and of course your analysis!
Glad to share more of this awesome game, thanks for watching!
@Tacticplayer83 I got tired of liches, and I love using zombie dragon. I even do challenge runs where only physical magic is allowed and in that case, I don't make any liches so all rings go toward making Z Dragons to spit front row physical targetable magic.
@@laertesindeed That is a really interesting idea. But making Liches is wayyyyy too tempting LOL! I do reckon that Zombie Dragons are almost unkillable. If only their abilities would match that sturdiness!
@@tacticplayer83 Not unkillable, but very tough. And unlike ghosts, the computer controlled white magic does not instantly get rid of ZD, it just tickles harder than other forms. But back to the advantage of their abilities which you may be underestimating, is that I mentioned their front row physical spit being targetable. That word is important, because they can target anybody, no matter who is in the way, or in front, or arranged far left and far right in a row....doesn't matter. The spit can pick anybody. Very few of the tanking Large units can do that.....and the few that can are not allowed in my physical magic challenge runs so I can't use them anyway, heh.
@@laertesindeed I would have considered at the very least keeping the attacks Tiamats have in the back row and then ZD would have been a very fair competition to Lichs. Since Undead Rings are still very hard to get, I don't see the issue of Zombie Dragons possessing Evil Ring in the back row as well. That is why I prefer Tiamats over Zombie Dragons. ALso, if i really feel like getting one, I just snatch a couple from Antanjyl enemies.
I like the idea of a princess to be a Booster, is one of the things i like the franchise
I have not played this game, but I am curious. Perhaps, I might give it a try!
It's weird, but if it clicks, it really clicks.
IIRC certain items will allow characters to damage/kill undead. IIRC Dark Knights were referred to as Evil Ones or something in the first rental I played.
Yup, there were like....two, I think?
I have playing games for 35 years on every platforms, this one is my lovest game ever ! I love it more than Tactics ogre or ogre battle 64. I love everything in this game, arts mechanic, story, name of maps, songs, everything ! It will be dream come true if Square enix will pick this game and remake it.
Hawkman (Canopus) + two Griffins are a great early game strike force. I agree Hawkman do fall off but early game I love having one squad of flyers.
Absolutely, plus they friggin ZOOM
For the dragons, the salamander and snow dragon (Can't remember the third tier ice dragon name) and the second tier black dragon tiamat does aoe. But using an undead ring on a tiamat makes it into a zombie dragon which does rot in the back and acid in the front which both only do damage to a single target which imo would be considered a C rank. Others pointed out the imp and such, but overall I pretty much agree with the chart with one exception that the Eagleman (and Ravenman) will always give low flying if only teamed up with small units making a great liberation squad imo. One of the most underrated games of all time. 😸👍
It's kind of nuts how it can be simple and deep at the same time.
Big agree with Eagle/Ravenmen
@808neko Technically speaking the zombie dragon doing single target attacks is not a reason to lower their ranking, it should raise their ranking higher. Because those single target attacks are targetable (it can ignore anybody in the front row and pick a leader in back row to spit physical magic or black magic) which means it is a tank that can contribute to your efforts at killing someone instead of just blocking the front row from bothering you. By all means, in the larger meta for the vanilla game you would be advised to use all your undead rings on making Liches, but if you are playing the game without being a slave to the meta (for example on challenge runs where you set rules for yourself to follow) then they can definitely be useful.
Man it's really cool to see a tier list for this. Love this game! Agree with a lot but some of your picks are pretty shocking.
That sums up my preferences on the series, yes.
A bit late to the party but something to add about Generals and Dragoons that I think were completely missed:
Half of what makes these units great isn't just their personal combat ability but their unique recruit options. As each individual General/Dragoon has unique recruit options (IIRC) it actually validates treating the individual Generals and Dragoons uniquely. This is particularly the case for Debonair and Tristan as their recruit options are very distinct IIRC.
The hard part with the mage line is keeping their cha from plummeting with their alignment. They kill so very nicely, which makes their cha and ali bounce around a ton depending on what they are killing.
Another cool thing about ninja, they are dirt cheap compared to most other units.
If I remember right, the doll mage's damage type is phys and it drops off super hard very quickly.
Vampires are pretty sweet, tanky as hell and make the unit they are in really hard to kill, that defense jumps up a lot during the day and as they tend to get made from knights, their high ali makes them near impossible to kill during the day. Really weird unit to use, and a pain to get the item to do so.
The pumpkin heads can kill undead which is cool.
The differences between the opinion leader's sets are quite stark. The ice aoe is really good, the phantom is very bad. The problem with the ianuki is they tend to have really low hp and have a high chance of getting squished. Thunder is average. I find the icecloud lord is the easiest to keep their ali right where you want it. Either massacring everything, as a lot of things seem to be weak or neutral to ice, and letting ali drop like a rock, along with cards, or using the holy attack to kill undead to make it max out quite quickly. The units that come with it also help keep a more balanced force with a lot of staying power as it tends to come with the most clerics and knights.
I just use the opinion leader early on, once i get Gilbert i change him to q knight qnd put his dragons with my opinion leader, then i used all the other characters to form high flying high ali groups for liberaating
If you give a pumpkin head a rotten pumpkin to hold they become a Halloween, and if you pair two with a samurai/swordmaster and stick them in a town, just set their tactics to leader and you can effectively forget about it for the rest of the encounter. Halloweens get two attacks per combat and two can absolutely cripple pretty much anything. They insta-kill undead, they're insanely powerful against bosses, and they're super easy to bring to max alignment because they don't kill. They're one of the few units that can effectively threaten zombie dragons, and their promotion item is so easy to get that you have no excuse to not promote every single pumpkin head you get. Easily S tier.
Fair point
Sorry but as far as I know, Pumpkin doesn't work on bosses. It makes fighting against beasts and dragons a lot easier though!
@@tacticplayer83they may not do damage to bosses but they can reduce the boss's team down to pathetic health levels extremely early in the fight, making it super simple to cut through to the leader.
I wish this video existed before I did my Ogre Battle run a month ago. XD
Did you run Mermaids and Berserkers?
@@CoffeePotato How rude! XD
Although to be fair, I did have a Mermaid in one of my main teams until the late-game. You know how well that turned out!
Agree almost entirely with the rankings, though sometimes for different reasons.
Wild Men are great because they have excellent HP gain and are cheap, but it's really hard to maintain their low alignment in the early game. I find Beast Men are good versatile back row characters but Wizards probably edge them out.
Halloweens are dramatically tankier than Pumpkinheads even though they do the exact same thing, but they are a little awkward to get.
Golems over Giants for accuracy??? Golems are the most inaccurate units in the game.
just finished my first run on the saturn version and killed the final boss on max hp with 2 tier 1 wizards, 2 were wolves, and a tier 3 cleric, and a fire and ice aoe taro card. I was maxed for resources at that point too it was down to the wire.
It does feel surprisingly epic for a flat map like that.
miss great old ogre battle
I like to put a hawkman in all human groups to give them low sky movement.
I've never managed to recruit Galf.. maybe I'll try with 2 Brunhilds.
Things you missed: Pumpkin attacks are considered "Holy" for some strange reason and actually kill Undead.
Shamans can sometimes be better than Monks, especially for healing Tanks (Golems, Dragons..).
Dark Knights have the highest strength gain at level up (+7 I think).
If you pair up Werewolves and Tigermen with Vampires, they become the most destructive and impenetrable units during the nighttime.
Zombie Dragons are a WALL. They have the highest HP in the game and the defense of a Golem. Not even Holy hurts them much.
True, there's certainly some bits I missed. I thought I'd given those pumpkins items to that effect, that's really handy to know. Going to have to try that beast squad next time.
@MountainMGTOW Correction to your comment. Pumpkin attacks are "NOT" Holy. I think you are mistaking how it works. The reason that pumpkin can kill single undead is because the pumpkin attack mathematically attempts to divide the current HP of the target unit by 2 and if there is a fractional leftover amount (for example if the current HP was an odd number) then it rounds up to the next highest integer and then tries to remove that much from the target. And even though the number displayed for HP on the screen for undead is 0.....the game actually keeps track of that as if there was a small fraction greater than zero and less than 1; so that the coloration filling in the HP bar can be differentiated. As such, when a pumpkin attack succeeds against an undead target, it divides that fractional amount in half and then rounds up to the next highest integer of 1 and tries to remove that from the target; which results in removal for the undead character. The pumpkin attack is in the physical magic school at all times. Having white magic vulnerabilities makes absolutely no difference to the pumpkin attack anywhere; it is physical.
@@laertesindeed Fabulous! I accept that answer because I love math and coding. Regardless of the reason, the outcome is the same. Pumpkins can kill undead, which is handy sometimes.
@@mountainmgtow5421 Yep, they can. If it makes you happy, the cockatris petrify attack can also kill undead... :D But it is still classified as physical magic so it just has its own special rules.
What makes the ghost/phantom units even more OP is their low sky movement ability. The squad will maintain their flying if you only fill out the ranks with casters or unarmored units. With a single front line ghost led by liches or princesses, you'll have a near invincible nuker squad that can outpace any enemy squad with the exception of high flyers.
It's wild, on the flip side, I never realized until the other day that getting a crown on map 1 also basically allows for an angel in every squad, and once those Jesus lasers come out..
Until they run into a cleric or paladin . . .
@@snakeeyes522 Then they just come back in the next round. A favorite team of mine last run was a vamp leader, ninja master, 3 undead out front. Ninja Snipes with an AoE, and if the wall crumbles, we run...otherwise those ghosts just act as a shield. The party was basically an FTL ship.
interesting enough i recently went back and was playing OB:MotBQ and somehow got 2 dream crown. the first one i got was a random drop in like map 3 or 4 and then another was a buried treasure on like map 11 or something. i had to look it up because i didnt even think you could get more then one. apparently you can. i guess with as many times as iv played the game its bound to happen. granted it was on a emulator (i no longer have a tv that i can play the old one on anymore.) so i dont know if that has something to do with it or not.
Oh, for sure, you can get like....6 max? I think?
Would you do this for 64? Great video
I did, and that video was really subpar, because I have only a couple playthroughs of 64. The rest I've run for years.
Dude...Pumpkinheads and Halloweens are A and S tier respectively. You also said they aren't good for defense. The reason I consider them at A and S tier is specifically for their use in a defensive role. Winners and losers of a fight are determined by total damage done by each side. If you have two Halloweens on a team and park that team on your base it will never be lost. I've played through this game many times. Every time I use this strategy for defending the base. These Halloween teams have never lost a fight thanks to their doing half the enemy's current hit point total in damage for each attack. If you lose your base you lose reputation (which admittedly you may want), but you also have to start the level over - Halloweens prevent this from happening. They remove a condition of defeat for you, allowing you to focus on other things.
Fair point. Actually, I want to do a Pumpkin only run now.
Oh for sure Pumpkins/Halloweens are awesome against undamaged units, and high HP targets. Of course the damage tapers off the lower the HP of the target, but they are still great units.
@@dtnuh They also literally can't kill anything. Kind of an interesting challenge like the Cleric Only run of OB64
@@CoffeePotato If you give them a Holy based weapon, they can kill Ghosts and Skeletons, lol. 😆
@@dtnuh Heh, figures that would work, nice! This is why I love the Ogre series' obsession with unreasonably specific interactions.
I would say the MC in this game can be as low as D tier depending on how you answer questions. I seriously remember one time where my MC felt so weak and was possibly the weakest unit in his squad the entire game and that squad was a knight a ninja and a couple valkyries. But then another game when I went for the good ending resulted in the MC being the most powerful unit by far. His AoE seemed to suddenly be effective against everything but undead and his stats were far higher overall giving him the ability to one shot enemies of equal level half the time and leave anything he didn't kill so low on HP that a noob squad of fighters could finish them. In both games I equipped him with roughly the same stuff which is to say most of the game he had nothing because it was maybe my third attempt at the game and I sucked at it.
Yeah, I love the chaos of the questions system. Just started a run last night with a MC that's basically a turbo caster. Guy may not hit hard, but he always seems to open every fight, it's been oddly useful. Of course, then we got an Angel, Princess, and Weretiger in the very first fight, so he didn't get to shine much.
@DragonEye The problem is, the Opinion Leader should not be used very much for 3/4 of all the story paths or their level is too high and their charisma/alignment start going in the wrong direction. Seemingly the only path where the effectiveness of your Opinion Leader in active battles has any meaning is the low alignment evil path for the story.....and in that case, it doesn't really matter what spell setup you got from the questions at the beginning......you could exploit whatever they have to your benefit and have an advantage based on you being higher level than what you fight and having accumulated so many tarot card draw bonuses while liberating cities throughout the campaign personally...... (as opposed to your OL standing still on the home base while your liberating units do all that work in 3/4 of the standard story paths)
Great now I gotta replay this game again....
Why yes, you should 👍
If you’re fighting at night a Vampire led Werewolf unit is PRETTY powerful. I’ve abused moon taros and fought only with Vampire/Werewolf units Just to see if I could
Presumably some Powerwolf playing in the background for maximum immersion?
@@CoffeePotato nah I play Queen when playing any of the ogre battle games. Seems fitting for obvious reasons
also you seem to have forgotten the pumpkin evolution from deneb.. the jack o (or whatever hey are named) attack 3 time per battle and you can have 5.... trick is to pair them with a slow hitting unit since they do % dammage
Are you referring to some sequel game or some mod on a different console port....? Because you can never have 5 halloweens in the same unit in normal Ogrebattle March of the Black Queen. Moreover, they get 2 attacks, not 3 (unless you have a princess as the leader...in which case she is giving them the extra turn, they don't have it on their own) . The pumpkin attack isn't technically percentage based.... rather, it just attempts to divide the current HP of the target by 2 and then rounds up to the next integer if there was any fractional remainder leftover in the calculation. For example, if the current HP was an odd number or a value of 1....it would divide that by 2 and then round up to the nearest integer and then remove that from the target. So if the HP of the target was 31 then it would try to remove 16; and if the HP of the target was 1 then it would have internally gotten to 0.5 and rounded up to the nearest integer of 1 and therefore removed 1 from the target that had 1 HP.... thus killing it. This is also the reason why a pumpkin attack can kill an undead if it does not miss.
@@laertesindeed I must've changed her to a princess or another one to it... been a while I dint replay it on playstation one I'll admit
4 halloweens and a princess is something beautiful to behold. the randomizer will feed enemy squads like that to you like it's candy, highly recommend
So, I don't agree with about half your list...but instead of explaining why, I'm just going to say that every unit is viable. Every unit is worth trying. With the exception of "certain strategies" (*cough* princess *cough*) this game is so varied and the units so unique that I think every single one is worth a try. If only to see people come up with new combinations that others haven't that work well. Or to see if that new combination holds a strategic advantage that people haven't thought about. I dunno man, this game is great. Thanks for taking the time to make the list.
This game impressed me how the usually terrible Clerics are godlike as it is a sustain.
Plus their ability to hard counter one of the most busted passives.
Some snafus here but fun to watch anyway. You should do a list for named playable characters like lars, canopus, etc.
Also I love clerics but its worth mentioning that its sometimes hard to win on technicalities with them since healing gives no credit.
Yes to both of those !
15:03 "They are firing Jesus lasers everywhere" LOL
The irony is that the attack being mentioned is named Jihad, which comes from a totally opposite category of mythologies..... lol
Wish they'd make this downloadable on a modern system. This video caused a quick look, and an original snes cartridge is on sale for $1200.
Yeah, it's insane how much it runs for. I hope to get a functional copy of the Limited Edition someday.
@Chris I still have my physical cartridge for the original SNES. :D I wouldn't sell it even for $2000 to be honest.
Uhhh dollmaster dont Buff the golems?
I had the same problem with dragoners, I thought they were female.
Apparently they're just really big fans of 80s metal.
I just got the crown in chapter 2. I didn't use it yet because I didn't know that the princess is busted. WTF is this game. I love it.
It's bizarre like that 🤣
I would put the ghosts and skeletons much lower. Immortality is good but you need revives and heal are less expensives anyways on your usual units. I mean as an early game crutch nothing destroy as much as ghosts on the back row and later on wraiths but they should not be part of your main army. Nixie should be much higher, an early character that gets an hit all attack is good and she can even remain good up to middle game.
Werewolfs are as good as ninja and you can get them really early, Vampires are extremely underrated, basically invincibles tanks if they are in the front row since they are tanky AND can heal a lot. Since both these units have no need for ALI you do not need to have a lot of them but you can overfeed them with XP so they are even stronger anyways.
Apart from this I agree with most very good tier list. Maybe put the hawkman slighty higher since they are your first source of Low sky unit until you can replace them with the good ones like the Devils and Angels. Both gryphon and cockatrice should be B tier if you want high sky just get wyverns that are A tier.
I see them as the equivalent of giving the party a rechargeable shield at the cost of offense.
Using the debuger on the snes version, theres a dead bahumut class, dont know if its used on the game or not, i play it only once fully, and started thinkering with the hex value for units...
Yeah, there's some crazy stuff hex editing has shoveled up. The Randomizer discord is pretty fun to read. Like how the game was always supposed to have the PS1 Limited Edition AI, but the SNES just didn't have the ram to run it or something.
It's the zombie dragon, you use an undead ring on a tiamat to get it. It has insane defense, but isn't very good otherwise.
i love princess they awsome i manage to turn a lot of amazon to princess. in fact i still have proof on my snes emulator. also got the lich abour 4 i think very powerful
Princesses do not give "double moves" they give an *additional* move. So Slice x2 would become Slicex3 not Slice x4.
Fair, though admittedly there were bigger mistakes in here. Mostly it comes down to details getting garbled after ranting for a while.
What are the differences between snes and ps1 versions?
Some units changed, the PS1 version has unique looks for unique characters, has better item descriptions, more save slots, and less jank. Also a few view angle and a better feel overall.
i didnt actually know in the lap of gods was finished! i know zombero as a modder from nocturne hardtype so i gotta get that going soon smh. trust that man with my life
edit: also I am CHOOSING to believe ninjas equipped with melee weapons simply throw them on attack to get the damage. it's my god given right to toss the rune axe around like a football
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't!
My problem with Seraphim and Sylphs is that they only have one attack on the back, I preffer to have a Muse or a dollmaster attacking twice, and besides, sorcerers and Mages should be higher in the score by the standards you are using, since they deal elemental damage, using the most effective one to attack.
My tier among those classes would be:
S: Lich
A: Sorcerer
B: Muse, Dollmaster
C: Mage, Sylph, Seraphim
And I don't like to use Undeads at all, so I don't use ghosts or Skeletons, since they deal nearly no damage.
Fair, though there's more to it, like everything in this series. Liches lose a little just on account of being quite a thing to even get ahold of. They're great, but making a unit with low Ali and high Chr is just a Paradox. Then you're up to RNG for the promotion items needed for this. Faeries and angels just show up and Pokemon their way up to hyper beams. The dollmasters are good, but they also strangely count as physical attacks through magic for some reason. Plus, the flappy squad don't get blocked by undead. Sure, there's other exorcism methods, but once you get rolling, it's nice to know that the odds of them just completing their orders without any extra steps against almost any squad they hit feels nice.
maybe i am lucky but fire and ice giant tend to always hit when in my games on my side... might be why I see hem higher....
What about the red coated cleric??
Too British
@@CoffeePotato They're the backbone of your army!
i think dollmage can be acid mage '__') if i'm not mistaken
ah it was doll master, attack area twice on back
Over the years of playing OB, I've found that the "best" strategies once you get past the first few maps, are quite often the simplest ones:
1). Don't take ANY towns or temples (yes, you heard me) at first.
2). Deploy your units near your base that you want to levelup (if you're going for the 'best' ending, you don't want any single unit getting too strong), rotate them as needed.
3). Keep a "chaser" unit (anything with High Sky movement) sitting behind the front line. This unit will chase down skulls (units that you killed the leader but left something else alive) before it is able to get back to its base and regenerate.
4). Once you get to the shop that sells them, BUY JOKERS. Once I have the money, I always go into a map with 200 of them (2 stacks of 99).
5). DO NOT kill enemies with Tarot Cards. Doing so will cause your leader to levelup. But, just wounding enemies with cards, is okay. it takes awhile to get the feel of what a card will, and won't kill. For this reason, never use the Death Card, ever.
6). Always keep 2 FOOL cards; these make some boss battles a joke. You want 2 of them, in case you fail to kill the boss on the first try (he will instantly get his troops back).
7). Just sit around your base and wait for the enemy to come to you. In all maps except the secret map and the final map, the enemy has a finite number of units (mid to late game, it's 3 of each unit). Once they are all dead, you have free reign over the map.
8). Liberate towns in the correct order as needed for special character/quests.
9). Liberate everything with your Leader's unit.
10). Once everything is liberated, place any special characters needed for special boss interactions in the leader's unit (use the switch character between unit function). Simply having a unique character in the Leader's group is enough; they don't have to be the unit leader to get special cutscenes and such.
11). Before you fight the boss, though, return all of your units to base and wait for tributes, until you lose 2 pixels off the reputation gauge about 6 or so days worth).
12). You can use Moonbeams and Sunbeams to make this fast once you get to maps that sell these.
13). Use Moonbeams to prevent tributes from happening while you fight the enemy's units to further increase how many days you can collect.
14). Always keep lots of heal and revive items on you, though once you get a few clerics (and their upgrades), you shouldn't need them much.
15). _Don't_ use the Termites in the map with the walls. Use a High Sky unit to fly over the walls instead.
Do this, and the entire game becomes cakewalk. No "strategy" needed.
Thanks for the tips. Why to not use the Termites?
@@vasilas432 If you use the termites, all the ground units will come flooding out of the enemy castle. If you don't use the termites, the enemy can ONLY send Air Units. Even if you fly over the walls and attack their castle once all the air units have been dealt with, he still won't send out ground units. And, unless you're going the evil route, you don't want to kill any more than necessary.
Now, you can use the termites AFTER you defeat the boss, with no consequence, but this doesn't really do anything for you.
@@Dhalin I played this stage today and as I didn’t know about, I used them. Then I killed more than necessary. It’s difficult to manipulate alignment and reputation in my first playthrough. I try though. Still I am forced to use Gilbert with his Wyrms in order to control enemy bundles faster. He already has a zero alignment. Thanks for answering 🍺
@Dhalin The one thing I would totally disagree with is the claim to not liberate any towns and then purposefully waiting 6 days of tribute at the end. That is just unnecessary punishment. By all means, don't liberate all the cities too fast; but the vast majority of maps you can liberate 3 or 4 towns and then center the fighting all on a focus area until you have eliminated the finite number of enemy allotments; all while being at neutral tribute versus cost ratio. And then the rest of the towns can be liberated while waiting the 3 days of tribute after sending your own units back to base (3 days is the duration of time after which the reputation meter will begin to take notice if there is nobody fighting you and you haven't engaged the boss)
@@laertesindeed Yeah, but my method gives you way, way more money. Waiting for 6 will take two pixels off of your rep meter, but liberating all of the towns in the next map will fill them back up, and there are no events that I am aware of that require a 100% meter. 98% will easily do, and you'll be just fine (I've gotten the ending with the World card many times).
And I usually have way more money than I need, BUT, if you happen to get one of those rare trader items? You can max out the stats on your Leader's group to all 999 if you have enough money. Also, being able to buy 300 jokers every map really helps the game go smoother too. Just don't *kill* anybody with those tarot cards; only wound them and let your people finish them off.
Main character should probably be divided up by version. Ice cloud, sonic strike, thunder flare, phantom. These all yield different power levels. Note ice Cloud used banish in the front row and can kill undead. Only sonic strike gets 3 front row attacks. Thunder flare only gets 2 in the front row. Phantom has high intelligence but not much else and uses only dark attacks.
Phantom also has better odds of getting damage boosting gear, allegedly...I guess based off personal experience, too, but still.
Phantom Lord was my first. Loved the HP. Hey, he's my highest HP guy and I wanna see some Poison action.
Frighteningly high chance of random Game Overs.
@AlexMillar Careful, there.... as when you say things like "sonic strike" and "thunder flare" that tips me off to the fact you played a port on a different console, or maybe even a mod which changed the underlying programming of the game. As those were not the attacks in the original SNES cartridge version of this game. In the original, the versions of Opinion Leader were Phantom, Ice Cloud, Thunder, and Iainuki.
Lol first time play this long ago
Got dream crown randomly from deneb mission
I love the random board game logic, it just makes runs so different.
I’m 100% convinced this guy either didn’t play the game or played the game once and didn’t even use half the units so allow me, a person who beat the game at least a dozen times correct these embarrassing mistakes. You should also be embarrassed if you agree with this video in 90% of the choices. You’ll also have to excuse me, after I seen phantom put into S tier, I just skimmed the video and made my comments on the final picture and then I watched the video and found even more errors to correct.
First off, how dare you.
Dragoons are S tier, it’s not even an argument. ALL of their stats are absolutely incredibly high. Easy decision.
Phantoms are B tier at best simply because they can be 1 shot and you would likely have to be switching between the unit they’re in and another unit if you want their party to remain in the fight when you encounter an enemy unit with light magic. And what game were you playing exactly? Because no unit in this game comes back to life automatically. Seriously, did you play this game.
Ghosts would be about D tier simply because of their invulnerability to physical attacks and because nightmare can hit pretty good. You didn’t even put them in the list though but I’m sure if you did, they’d be S tier.
Skeletons/Wraiths are trash. F tier at best and it’s really ridiculous you have them in fucking S.
Princess, Lich and General are about the only thing on this list that makes sense. It’s called Royal Crown by the way, not Dream Crown and her attack is Starlite.
Bosses. Why. But ok. All S tier, obviously because they’re fucking bosses. If you had any of the bosses in any of your units they would instantly become unbeatable. Bosses as their boss units also take everything you have to beat so it’s an obvious ranking.
Samurai Master, Muse and Paladin are acceptable at A tier. Good solid units for what are expected of them.
The fairies are all trash. F. I’d give Sylphs C at best, missile is pretty shitty.
Shaman goes to B. Cleric C. Nice job including Monk which would be A. Heal All is amazing against enemies that hit your entire party especially with a princess as leader.
Seraphim would be A, cherubim C and angel D. Seraphim destroy undead. Amazing in a party with a princess leader.
Ninja. Why. They’re not exceptional at anything they do and they’re super weak at what they do do. Ninja Master would barely be B tier. Ninja would be no more than D simply because of their high agility.
Wyrm, Wyvern, Gryphon and Cockatrice could be thrown into A-B because of they’re the only units in the game that give high sky. The birds are debatable because of how they’d be utilized, petrify is hit or miss and gale can hit hard. Wyrm and wyvern can hit hard. So actually accurate on this one. I got my eye on you.
Witch at B? Ok. Stun can really turn the tide.
Valkyrie at B? Not hardly. Valkyrie at D. Thunder isn’t strong against every enemy.
Devil at B - this makes me ill. Meteor is devastating hit-all black magic that no other class can use. A tier easily. IMPS DONT USE SLEEP!
Knight in B? Try C. They can get wrecked if you’re not prepared.
Mage (not Kapella) is alright in B. Wizard belongs here too and Sorcerer in A because of that additional all-magic.
Salamander in B is alright considering they don’t give a ridiculous terrain bonus like the other tier 3 dragons (which aren’t listed). Platinum would be about C and I’d go as far as to throw Zombie in B. I’d put them in D if they weren’t such great tanks.
Wild Man in C. Sure.
Evil one as well. Yeah.
Pumpkin. No, D. They’re amazing when they hit but they can literally be 1 shot by certain attacks like iainuki because of their low health and defense.
I’d say Halloween would barely make it to C because of that extra damage but you’ll find yourself reviving them often.
Werewolf would be an easy B. They’re savage at night in front and in a low ali party. Were Tiger (unlisted, surprise) would be A because of their additional attack. 3 of these in front with a lich and a devil or vampire in back and you have an unbeatable night unit. Devil would make this unit low sky.
Hawk Man. Come on, really? Tell me you used hawk men and you’re putting them in C? E at best and they would be F hadn’t it been for their low sky terrain. You’d probably put Canopus in C too wouldn’t you?
Angel, C, alright.
Dragoner and Master would be F, trash, as a unit, they’re only advantage is that they give an ever so slight buff to dragons in their unit. Almost unnoticeable. The only thing they’re better than is a front wizard. Their dragon recruitments are neat though if you lack dragons which if you actually played the game unlike this guy, you may know you can get dragons from the mountains at the bottom of the map in level 2.
Kraken, literally what the hell. B tier easily, maybe A. The best water unit. Dock them in a stream and they’re almost invincible especially with a nixie and additional kraken. Front or back works with these leviathans.
This is probably the biggest shock on this list because of how low Vampire is. This is what makes me think this guy did not use half the classes in this game. Vampires are the best tank and can literally. LITERALLY stand alone in a unit against an entire enemy unit except MAYBE a unit of light magic users. They even self-heal what damage they DO take! Literally S tier, anything else is a disgrace.
Doll Master should be B. 2 acids can be pretty mean at times.
Beast Masters are savage and can be put in front or back with the same amount of attacks. B tier. Other top tier classes like paladins gain an additional attack that slightly outrank them even though they have a bonus with and against beasts.
Clay and rock golems F. Absolute garbage. Iron golems could be E just cause they really smack but I wouldn’t recommend using any of them ever.
Dragons and tier 1 colored dragons C. Good tanks and hit moderately good when they do hit. Colored dragons get some shitty terrain bonuses like snow and swamp that you’re unlikely to use often though.
Tier 2 dragons would be B cause they’re more tanky.
Amazon at E, that’s about right.
Nixie is definitely not E. As I said, with Octopuses and Krakens, they’re savage. C at least, maybe B.
Fighters should be at least C, they’re not so bad for being a starting unit. Ever had a level 20 fighter that just didn’t want to promote to what you wanted? He wasn’t so bad was he?
Giants, C-D. They can really take down humanoid units when they land their hits. Their back row attacks aren’t the best though.
Mermaids, like nixies but with 2 individual attacks. C at least, maybe B as well.
I’d have made my own tier list but I’ve been out of the video-making game for months and haven’t had time to do it but if I’d have made a list this shitty, I’d rather not have made any video at all.
Fair enough on most, though no, the crown is the PS1 version naming, a few things switched around. Either way, thank you for the corrections, I did address some of the stuff that was off, since a few folks pointed out that I likely had a modded rom that was labelled as original for the gremlins, at least, because they did have a sleep attack on stream. I did note that this one will be redone when I have time, but after several runs, this list was requested at the time.
That said, mistakes happen, and I still disagree on many of the points. Like ghosts. Sure, they can be one shot. Then they come back. They're a recharging shield with other benefits, that's got absurd amounts of potential in my book. Anyhow, thanks again for the reply, I hope the info in it helps other folks.
@@CoffeePotato you got me on the crown. Though ghosts and skeletons do not come back after they’re killed. You have to revive them. Later on, most enemy groups have units that can hit behind them and for how strong they are, you’d find yourself dealing less damage than them and losing fights. I’ll agree to disagree though, not every playthrough is the same.
@@undeadshagames9489 Hold up, was that also a PS1 difference? I know with absolute certainty that they do come back as long as their squad leader is alive. On about half the teams I run one front angled ghost shield with a flier in the back to make an FTL situation. Ghost+Witch+almost any damage tends to stun counter a hell of a lot. It's definitely hard to nail down stuff for this game, but that's Matsuno's design seemingly every time. A couple meta options, and the rest is as good as you can make it.
A few things you got wrong about the princess.
In march of the black queen you can reliably farm crowns from undead neutrals. Without using and cheat codes I had about halfway through the game 8 teams led by princesses.
Also they don't double your attacks they add one to each one of your attacks.
Also monks are fantastic.
Princess/Lich/Monk is an xtremely solid back line.
Also while good both ghosts and wraiths are not even remotely comparable to something like the Lich
Lich and Princess are the only S tier classes imo. Especially since Lich can recruit both ghosts and wraiths.
Fair, though I feel like Princess definitely has to be above the Lich in many ways due to the rng needed to get that guy. I didn't really count oddly specific exploits into this list, though how does this crown farm work? I haven't heard of that one yet.
@@CoffeePotato ever since I posted previous message and the one I'm posting now I casually got 3 more crowns without farming just playing through the campaign but making sure I kill everyone in every stage I currently have 11 groups led by a princess + OL group.
I obtained I think 1 crown through a quest which seems to be 100% non rng related so that crown is definitely there
Got about 5 as random drops from undead in Pogrom Forest. Wasn't really farming for crowns, was farming for Cleric and future muse Ali on undead but given how many I got is safe to say you have a decent chance of a drop against the undead.
A few more crowns dropped from random enemies during the campaign (with the most recent drop being in Fort Alamoot which is the last stage I completed in my current run)
I have gotten more Princesses than I have liches, I only have i think 7 liches compared to 11 princesses (tho I still have a undead staff and undead ring in storage just don't have another mage to make another lich gonna have to manipulate the Ali killing some neutrals)
Again I have done 0 farming for neither the liches not the crowns they just dropped from enemies (but again in pogrom forest clearly hey can be farmed)
2 of the liches I made were done by trading lexicons to Badtista.
PS: I also remember that on my previous runs in this game I always had 5 or more crowns with one of the games getting really lucky and getting 2 or 3 crowns extremely early.
@@eternalchamp3882 Which version are you playing?
@@CoffeePotato I'm playing the snes version of the game. Didn't even know there was a PS version of this game until 2 days ago :)
I tried getting into let us cling together recently but sadly I can't find the game on my psp anymore :(
@@eternalchamp3882 You can always hack the thing and get most of the series on there. That's what I did. The whole series is ridiculously annoying to get in one place. PSP/Vita/PC are generally the best, though.
You forgot Dragon Lich, they get a hit all from the back row. Any units with Hit All are S tier because you stack them together and get lich like killing efficiency without the need for getting a lich. Also the Vampire defense is ridiculous, he can win any match if you stick virtually and class behind him. Even during the day the coffin blocks just about everything. I usually make a monster mash group, but the Vampire is always front row by himself. Undead units are not S tier, as they die instantly if you run into a cleric or paladin, plus they do terrible damage on average and even worse during the day time. My Vampire was easily the most powerful unit, it never lost, ever, because of the defense. It also does not have the vulnerability of the other undead units that instantly die to clerics an paladins. And after you level up the Vampire a lot it turns beastly as the damage creeps upwards, which also heals itself with.
So yes, hit all's are S Tier in general, but many can still get sniped when they can't overwhelm early...like Mages or Nixies. I rate generic undead highly because they're easy to get get, they'll either wholesale reduce incoming damage to 0 or just tank a hit and Regen for next round, and tend to have pretty decent coverage if you give them random elemental items. If a Paladin heals to scare away a ghost, I'd still take that over 3 attacks coming in.
You are insane! The biggest error in the video is probably vampires. During the day, their defense is so high that nothing can get through. And at night they heal themselves as they damage any enemy, including the back row. There's nothing more satisfying than having your vampire knights Lans and Gilbert in the front row with princess Deneb and Litch Warren by your Leaders sides in the back.
Literally was talking about redoing this for this exact reason during the Gryphon stream XD
Demons..."either hit stuff or they put stuff to sleep."
Have you actually played this game?
This one needs to be redone. I could have sworn they had a sleep move, but apparently that's a LOTG mod thing.
Basic dragons are pretty good too because all dragon breath attacks are attack boosted attacks
I have boosted my mouth attack with fire, you see. What do you mean spicy curry isn't fire elemental, and I can't just bite my neighbor?
@MrClaive23 Not sure what you meant by "attacks are attack boosted" .....but I do remember that the SNES version of this game had the green dragon back row fire breath attack actually calculated as physical magic using the strength stat to determine magnitude. Meaning even though the name of the attack on the screen was the word "Fire" it was not fire magic. Whereas the red dragons and hellhound fire was actually fire magic. However, I think the playstation port (or the sega saturn port, etc) of this game changed that green dragon back row breath to be treated as fire magic (thus making it stronger or weaker based on the fire resistance of the enemy target instead of the physical magic resistance) . And I have to be careful talking to people who played this game on an Emulator or a mod somewhere.....because then even though they think they are playing the same version as my original SNES cartridge...there are some minor differences like this one.
@@laertesindeed dragon breaths aren't magic attacks so anything that boosts attack dmg will boost their breath attacks too. The only breath attacks that magic is their AOE attacks
@@laertesindeed i play the PS port. All single target breath attacks are non magic.
@@MrClaive23 If you look back at what I typed......you will note that I specifically said I'm talking about the SNES cartridge and that the ports to other consoles (as well as the people who emulated the snes but put mods in to change it away from the normal version) don't behave the same as the original SNES does. In the SNES original.... "some" Large character attacks use Strength to determine their magnitude, while some other attacks use Intellect to determine their magnitudes. Moreover, some of those attacks are calculated based on a school of magic. Physical is one of the schools of magic, like maelstrom and gale, but the red dragon back row fire is literally calculated as fire...with all the vulnerabilities and resistances that fire entails. Likewise, the back row cold from silver dragons and gold dragons and platinum dragons is literally calculated as cold magic with all the vulnerabilities and resistances that entails. The green dragon, on the other hand.....and by that I mean the starting version of dragons recruited from neutral encounters with green skin....has a back row attack that is named fire but actually gets calculated as the Physical school of magic. Any enemy target that is vulnerable or resistant to fire doesn't matter for them, it calculates the damage based on the physical vulnerability and resistance. That green dragon fire is also not blocked by a World card. The black dragon back row attack is an acid spit using the Physical magic school. Whereas the Tiamat back row attack is calculated using the Black Magic school.
Good effort, but you said a lot of stuff that was incorrect. I think you may be getting some things mixed up with OB64. Imps don’t use a sleep attack, for example. Vampyres are also one of the best melee units in the game. Debonair’s accuracy isn’t “terrible.” He has some of the highest AGI in the game…
That all already got covered in the comments. Except for the Debonair thing. His Agi may be good, but he always misses during speedruns, and I find that mess hilarious.
@@CoffeePotato it’s probably because of the enemies he’s trying to hit. He’ll always have a normal hit rate against the Ninja, Gryphon, Hawkman, and Faerie class trees because they have super high AGI, which pretty much cancels it out. Against most other units he’ll have a very high hit rate - comparable to a Gryphon or Cockatris in the front row. This game just does a really good job at making AGI actually matter. That’s why Knights and Samurai suck.
@@georgeasimakos1744 Fair enough, I still like using Samurai for their underdog status, though. Even the worst units are just fun to keep around. I'll redo the two Ogre Battle ones at some point, folks really wanted them that week, for some reason.
Is this I'm any way related to queen?????
Allegedly the idea for the series came from trying to design an SRPG while listening to Ogre Battle from Queen. How? No idea.
@@CoffeePotato interesting. I wonder if they met any legal issues with this
@@benjaminwatson9778 Nope.
I think you need to split the tiers for Day/Night, low ALI like the Dark Knight clean up the units at night where the high ALI take a dive in effectiveness. I take it that you do most of your fighting in the day as most of your lower ranks are really night fighters (beasts in particular). You do want to have a couple of low ALI Night units to do the dirty work. But yeah, Lich is broken even in the day, and with Princess with the +1 turn, almost always kills a unit outright. Someone else pointed out the Vampire as a day tank and a night killer as well.
Fair, but it gets too complicated at that point. I was thinking to redo it, but like the idea of ranking them based on your likely scenarios. I've been doing a run just focussing on night units this time, and many still stayed where they are. It'll be worth taking a second look at, though.
@@CoffeePotato It's a nuanced point for sure. But yeah, the dark versions and the light versions balance out depending on time of day. Since almost all maps start in the day, one should favor a day blitz team for overall including one devoted capture team, but have at least 3-4 night terror units (Lich is especially more powerful at night though it's scary in the day).
I mean hey, people like jiggle physics. That's normal.
If you don't like it and you hate other people who do like it, then you're a prude.
My wife would probably never call me a prude 🤣. It's super oddly specific to see that in this context, though.
Berserker and evil one, good if you like gambling they hit harder than knights especially at night miss more often than knights higher HP, knights and paladins more accurate better in daylight lower hp slightly less potential damage than Evil one line, samurai line lowest hp lowest defense highest attack highest accuracy the squish is real late game back row attack can be used to cheese certain bosses and enemy formations.
Pixie is junk, buff is random and attack is only really nice to kill undead, Sylph upgrade is Ok-ish. Ninja is garbage, front line attacks miss more than anything in the game, master attacks make you wish they were a Mage/Sorceror/Lich instead. Werewolves are A tier, although they only get one attack during the day, at night they're a force to be reckoned with. Vampyres are one of the best units, basically impervious during the day as a coffin (with a 0 weight, making ANY flying unit able to carry them) and a real pain at night. Hawk men are about as bad as a Mermaid, only they have a good weight which can make a unit fly for the cost of only one slot (as long as you're not trying to carry that Thunder Lord!)
Dragoon are s class period.
They call it Opinion Leader because you have those game changing moments where you get to choose your path which is based on the Opinion of the Leader... YOU!
Lead by Opinion is a bizarrely modern view 🤔
Thanks.
Why? You know.
don't remember the imp class having sleep in vanilla, I remember cerberus would switch between fire and sleep in the back row
shame petrify is bugged in psx, as it can kill undead in a pinch
Oh, I didn't know they could kill undead, that's cool! I'm positive about the imps, though, since their animation for it is on the sheet I pulled the sprites off of.
@@CoffeePotato I'm gonna have to use some imps in my next playthrough, and train a fairy to sylph
@@CoffeePotato The imps definitely 100% do not charm or sleep enemies, the cerberus do however.
@@jeremyparsons2944 Coffee was mistaken, the Imps do not have any charm or sleep abilities.
@@warmastergibbon4732 I'll need to double check if that's a PSX version thing or if I'm crazy.
Bit disappointed, for someone taking the time to make a ranking video, you didn't really know your units very well. called the units by the wrong name. the first Samurai you put on rank A is the Master version (gold color), the yellow "ghost" is the phantom, the ranked up ghost. ghosts are white. imps use nightmare, not sleep. dragoneers are blue, dragon masters are green. princess adds 1 extra attack to everyone, not doubles them. 2 becomes 3, 3, becomes, 4.
as much as i love watching ogre battle videos because its one of my favorite games, i couldn't finish.
I kind of agree with this. I think if you're going to make a tier list/best of/worst of/etc, it's crucial that you know your subject matter pretty much from top to bottom. A couple of mishaps here and there is understandable, but beyond that it dilutes the quality of the video. Of course opinions on ranking is inevitable, but one must do their homework before pulling something like this off!
Agreed, very disappointed in the lack of knowledge regarding mechanics and unit types/abilities.
Fair enough, but hey, maybe someone better at BQ will be annoyed enough to make their own. It'll be remade later after a dozen more runs, I'm sure.
Some interesting takes but you're way off on giants. They're better than golems. And hellhounds are way too high
I'm sure they can be, and this might be a version difference thing. I usually play PS1, and I know there's a lot of subtle nerfs. I feel like giants are just super inconsistent with their hits, meanwhile a couple of hellhounds can shred really well before being retired to the back row for status roles. Again, this might just be a difference in versions.
Lich king alert.
Vampires go in the front row, and either heal themselves while attacking, or take 1 damage. They are the best melee in the game, that you can raise from level 1.
They also act as a sentinel in the front row by often absorbing physical attacks during daytime.
Hola
Howdy
The hell? Undead are hard f. No group attacks and die immediately to healings and virtue attacks which come more common as the game goes on.
Wow you tier unplayable bosses. Thats useful.
And large units arnt worth sacrificing 2 small units. Itd make them f by default.
Opinion leader should just get high ali and cha and stay out of battles. When they die its game over. F here too.
This list is a joke.
Take a breather, we don't need a serious list, this game is an easy sandbox to fiddle around with.
That said, Undead also straight up ignore any other damage .. so no. S tier. When a unit forces another to have a counter for any chance, that's the definition of an S tier. You don't need a team of them. One Skelly up front is basically a forcefield for the team.
Hell yeah we tier unplayable stuff in a world where Randomizer mods exist.
Opinion leader can do what they want, they're the boss, my dude.
Ninja's are awful, I had always avoided them, their damage output is among the worst in the game.
Like the rest of the series, though, they're still potentially awesome. They tend to act first, and a quick, moderate damage burst unit can be really handy for opening things up, whether for their own hit and runs, or for a follow up squad
@@CoffeePotato the funny part about Ninja's is that they have very low requirements that are easy to meet. I remember the first time playing the game, by alignments were all sorts of messed up and the only master classes they could be were Ninja Masters, it was an awful experience, where I ended up using a very small group of units.
@@takarahayashi4124 It also might come down to random stats. I had a couple really strong ninjas that just moved around parties in one of my early runs, and I've always tried to have a few since. They just made excellent back row casters.
@@CoffeePotato that is true, good point the original OB had random stats (though not as random as Fire Emblem) it was random enough that you can feel the difference.
Ninjas have the same strength as knights/samurai and their upgraded classes. They also have better agility which means they miss less, and they get 3 attacks in their first form. Their damage output is amongst the highest in the game, and significantly higher than any of the other initial male classes, with the possible exception of the doll mage. Their weaknesses are low HP, and they can't lead units.