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I was just talking with my daughter about forgetting Christmas altogether this year. I have a prelit tree sitting undecorated, naked, empty in my living room. I have to choose between generating appointments to work in January or celebrating Christmas. There’s just not time for both. And I haven’t seen anything that suggests the meaning is still there, that it’s nothing more than a ridiculous , stressful celebration of excess by those who feel obligated to spend when they have nothing spend. I needed to hear this. I will celebrate. I will trust that January will be okay. There’s time to hang some evergreen and at least put a star on top of the tree. I have my nativity set up. And I will be in church for the midnight mass. I’ll light a candle and say a prayer. And I’ll do what I can to help those who need it. And this year, we’ll call that Christmas.
“The more we are proud that the Bethlehem story is plain enough to be understood by the shepherds, and almost by the sheep, the more do we let ourselves go, in dark and gorgeous imaginative frescoes or pageants about the mystery and majesty of the Three Magian Kings.” G.K. Chesterton
The Orthodox Christmases are so glorious and joyful! This will be our third. And we have a lovely Christmas tree in our nave, and the joy of so many children in attendance during the Divine Liturgy is worth more than gold. Our parish has nearly quadrupled in new members and young families in the past three years; Glory to God!
I normally get nervous when "the Christmas episode" appears in a series, but these Universal History episodes just keep getting better and better. Having heard this will make our family's Christmas so much richer. Thank you!!
Atheist seeker here 🙏❤ Living in Texas. I grew up Baptist until 12, and then my mom started going to Methodist Church. Her attitude changed and it really turned me off to religion. 40 now seeking the higher purpose
Get a Rosary pray it daily. It is often very difficult to wrap your head around Christianity and the world view that comes along with it. Doing something with your hands singing/praying with your mouth will let you understand it on something more than a cerebral manner. You might want to look at it like cosplay/meditation/yoga wherein people also perform a ritual to form a community albeit that those rituals lead to death. In the end you should be able to see The World for what it is and your own state will be revealed. In my experience Catholocism is good for that maybe because unlike Orthodoxy it doesn't try to get everything right and doesn't run the risk of getting everything wrong.
Do a search for "confessional LCMS Lutheran church" in your area. That way you won't get a rock n roll church. If they have a choice between traditional or family service, go to the traditional service. Just sit and observe the first time. But it will be quite different from typical Baptist. It will seem formal. But the doctrines and hymns align with the old church fathers and hymn writers. God bless.
My favorite piece of Christmas music is For Unto Us A Child is Born from Handel’s Messiah. Not sure if that qualifies as a hymn or is strictly sacred oratorio, but it moves me tremendously. God bless you both!
This is a wonderful and much-needed podcast. Bless you for it, Richard, and you, Jonathan, for hosting. We need to recapture this nexus of joy, especially as the world is suffering so much right now. I’ve been sharing the link to this ‘cast with family and friends. Let the Celebrations begin, let hope reign!
On his youtube channel called "Richard Rohlin", he has a playlist called "A Very Medieval Advent". That is likely the song list being referenced, and I enjoyed listing to it last Christmas. Hope that helps.
Around 36:00 Richard talks about giving in person being superior to giving from a distance. I understand his point, but one of my saddest experiences in recent years in my own city has been the increasing numbers of distressed people living outdoors, in various states of addiction and/or mental illness. It breaks my heart to see this, but also many of these people are potentially dangerous, and I'm a physically small older woman. One day I was driving home from grocery shopping and passing by one of the usual sad spots, and there were a couple men from the local United Gospel Mission with a van full of food, water, socks and underwear, all sorts of helpful stuff, along with an invitation to the shelter and the programs they have to lift people up. I realized that I don't feel safe walking into that camp, but I can give money every month to the men who can actually do that. There is some kind of comfort in being able to help someone even indirectly.
There is a difference between what you're describing and giving via the internet. You are actually being present/in close proximity, just unseen. Great honor should be given both to the seen and to the unseen who are righteous.
Early English carols- The Holy and the Ivy, Sans Day Carol, Coventry Carol ("Lullay"), Past Three O'Clock (although verses were written later apparently), Boar's Head Carol, Good Christian Men Rejoice These are ones I think people may recognize, but there are lots of others that are less known.
I have listened to this conversation twice at least. Just realised what a schizoid world I lived in a catholic region of the 70''s Transylvania, Romania.The communist regime tried to replace Christmas with an unsuccessful attempt to rename it to the celebration of the Winter Tree. It was a little bit confusing for us children to have Father Winter as an officially recognised figure while privately everyone seemed to agree on, favour and practice the Mikulás who put small gifts in our shoes on the eve of December the 5th. And for us the Angel brought the Christmas tree no matter what they said. My mother told me stories about our versions of sniffers too. Women were reported because they cooked the traditional meals for the Christmas Eve's dinner. In a way those isms looked like distorted religion. Nothing in its proper place. Thanks for Jonathan and Richard for this great conversation.
Watching from a bright, if slightly drizzly, Friday in NZ - where the temperature is climbing to 27°C. It's a pretty disjointed affair in NZ. We have traditional Christmas meals, fake snow in the malls, and Christmas lights on houses that only get switched on after 9pm. Thanks for the fascinating discussion. I'll live vicariously through you, as I listen to King's College's beautiful rendition of In The Bleak Midwinter. God bless you all
Some years back I read that the reason we all drag an evergreen tree indoors every December is that when Queen Victoria married Albert he brought his German tradition with him, and Victoria loved him to pieces (nine pregnancies' worth), so whatever he wanted was what happened. Then all the blue bloods started bringing Christmas trees indoors and it trickled down to the lower classes and then all over the empire (which meant all over the world at the time). I'm interested to know whether or not this story is widely considered to be true.
I grew up in a Roman Catholic church, and now serve at a non-denominational Christian church that focuses on people in recovery, and other marginalized folks. I am blessed with a richness of celebration, and the “permission” to enjoy it all. Thanks for this beautiful episode. I’ll be listening to it more than once.
You need to come to Romania, we have some of the craziest and most beautiful carols, boistrous caroling, dancing bears, pig killing, greenery, customs galore....
Thank you! I so agree with you on Christmas! I am always scared when people are dismissing Christmas as non Christian...I love it way to much and it is so deeply ingrained in us to want to do something important at that time of the year. I even asked my daughter to quit her (horeca) job to come home for Cristmas! She did quit and wil come this year (she lives in Spain we in Holland)! She will be looking for a new job next year...hahaha. What do we live for and work for if we can't even come home for Christmas?!
I have to put this out there- I’ve always known and understood that I am a Protestant and have never given it too much thought. Watching more and more of Jonathan and other catholic/orthodox content has led me to the understanding that my own conservative Lutheran faith is FARRRRR from other Protestants. 😂 Way way closer to catholicism or orthodoxy than some absolutely BaNanAs denominations hollering about Christmas trees.
Yeah. Anglicans and Lutherans stuck quite close to traditional Christianity. I'm Anglican and all the fundamentalist American evangelicals worry about Easter and Christmas and All Saints Day being pagan and about whether everything is "Biblical" drives me a bit nuts.
Of course we say The South. We locate the whole world in our lived locality. Isn’t that what Universal History & ancient thinking is about? It can’t be both ways: we can’t be post-modern globalists and tradition-informed natural humans. And this has to inform minute thinking, like validating our common forms of thought & speech that arise from natural humanness vs. ideology. Not all “Americentrism” is evil. If Alaskan First Peoples can call themselves the Real People, I can refer to the south-eastern US former Confederacy as The South. Looking forward to the rest of the episode!
I know Christians who don’t celebrate Christmas because they think its roots are pagan. I don’t care. I love Christmas. It’s magical. You can actually feel it. And you have to be an active participant in it to make it feel magical. It’s a requirement if you have children. It’s not about the presents but the jolly feeling everyone has. Spending time with family. Blasting Christmas carols. Watching Christmas movies. Making cookies. Decorating the tree. Putting up lights. Every time I see the Christmas tree I smile. We have a fake one we’ve been using for 20 years. But when it’s all done up and we turn on the lights, everyone in the house smiles. It’s such a magical holiday. I don’t know why Christians refuse to celebrate it. It’s not just about Christ but also celebrating Western culture and history. It is a very important ritual. To not celebrate Christmas is to reject Western civilization.
Funny you note that it’s big in the South. I currently live in Tennessee and ppl here do NOT like to celebrate the “pagan” holidays like Easter, Halloween, and Christmas. I think it’s madness. Very left wing where they throw tradition out assuming they know better. That’s why I consider myself a traditionalist and NOT a conservative.
@ drag0nfury1008 that is an example of word-concept fallacy. You’re seeing the word, and assuming the concept, or meaning, of the word; when in actuality, it has multiple meanings and manners of interpretation. So in this case, it may also be an example of “uncharitable”, as you are probably aware of these other meanings and interpretations; and you either choose or feel compelled to ignore those others in favor of the one that supports your already established world view. It ~may be~ that the problem with people’s celebration of Christmas is that it is a “counterfeit spirit”, but your reply does not actually demonstrate that.
@@drag0nfury1008- I’m not talking about witchcraft. 🙄 It’s the feeling you get when everyone around you is feeling something special. It’s not describable except in the long paragraph I gave about the feeling of the time. It’s the only time of year that everyone tells you to have a Merry Christmas. Meaning that they hope you have a great time spending time with loved ones, enjoying the festivities, celebrating Christ, and being happy in the darkest time of the year. I repeat, the DARKEST time of the year. There’s lots of studies showing that ppl who live in gloomy and dark areas get depressed easily. So imagine a ritual that incentivizes you to spend time with loved ones and where they put up lights to counter the darkness. The ritual of Christmas is there to stop ppl from getting too depressed in the middle of winter when everyone typically stays indoors and there isn’t enough sunlight. Also, there’s planning gifts to give and in the past, ppl would spend their free time making gifts for their loved ones to give on Christmas. The thought of thinking someone as you make something is the act of service and the attention of love. And that’s happening as you make or think of a gift for ppl you love. I just don’t understand why you would hate a holiday that celebrates loving each other during the darkest part of the year.
I would really like to hear your thoughts on Yule log. We have it in Serbia, Iraqi christians burn some wood in church yard. What would be the connection? Surely, pagan traditions of England, France and Iraq couldn't be the connection.
29:44 We call them scoptic songs here (Greece), from the Ancient Greek verb σκώπτω (skṓptō = to mock, scoff at) and are exactly that, songs about one's manly parts or -ahem- his good use of them, but in the Greek tradition these Bacchic songs are sung during the triodion period, especially on the last Sunday before Clean Monday and the beginning of Great Lent
On his youtube channel "Richard Rohlin", there is a playlist called "A Very Medieval Advent." This is the Christmas playlist that I am familiar with, and I believe was mentioned last Christmas on the podcast. Hope that helps.
You mention in the pod that you'll share Richard Rohlin''s medieval Christmas playlist. @Jonathanpageau, mind sharing that with us? I don't see it in the show notes.
On his youtube channel "Richard Rohlin", there is a playlist called "A Very Medieval Advent." This is the Christmas playlist that I am familiar with, and I believe was mentioned last Christmas on the podcast. Hope that helps.
Christians being Ebenezer Scrooge and saying “bah hum bug” to Christmas is definitely something I didn’t expect. I grew up in Los Angeles where the Christians definitely celebrate Christmas. And now get persecuted for doing so. =\
"The Man Who Invented Christmas" wasn't bad. I think liberties were likely taken ... but they didn't try to turn it into any of the post-modern cr*p-fest. I liked it. "A Christmas Carol" is my favorite Christmas story, hands down.
Look up odin's wild hunt for some interesting parallels with Santa Claus The wild hunt is a chase lead by a mythological figure (usually odin) riding through the thunderous skies during the winter storms with his hunting party consisting of elves or spirits or other beings
Here is an advent playlist Richard made (not sure if it’s the one he mentioned, but it’s still cool): ua-cam.com/play/PLaa3YkThO1y4OwaXUX-tQoUd8PkBSfmYk.html&feature=shared
Can I get some sources to read on Puritan anti-celebration? ~55:00 I've already read William Bradford's brief anecdote on Christmas from "Of Plymouth Plantation." Currently, I am in the middle of Iain Murray's "The Puritan Hope," and listening to Postmillennial people like Doug Wilson (shame on me; oh, the scandal!) who is all about "feasting and drinking," this anti-celebration disposition of Puritans is both remarkable and unsurprising. If we're going to talk about Apostolic tradition, then I would say that I believe in the Apostolic Hope (emphasized by developments among Puritans, hence Murray's term, "Puritan hope"). It seems pretty obvious that we should take hints from previous errors and correct them. ~59:00 I don't know about the rest of you, but in my experience, those who want to get rid of Christmas don't do it for moral reasons. They do it because they think it would somehow make worship "purer" (a la, Puritanism). They say things like, "It's a nice thought, but we know better now." I think we all know exactly what to think of that sentiment. Oddly enough, many of the proponents of banishing Christmas in my life have had little knowledge of Puritan teaching and were very much Dispensationalists.
One of the saddest things you don't realize when you're obsessed with Eastern Orthodoxy and don't pay attention to the rest of the world that was catechized by the Catholic Church of Rome is that Latin America celebrates Christmas as intensely as Europe. We barely have harsh winters, but we have harsh lives. Our context was one of human sacrifice and conquest. The Christmas season starts with the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which starts on Dec 9 (Gregorian) but fell on Dec 21 (Julian). We have the posadas and many other things worth noting. Here the Aztec would celebrate the birth of their god of the Sun, Huitzilopochtli, on the soltice, a warrior God who destroyed the moon to save his mother, the Earth. Our countries are as Orthodox with a Latin flavor as many in Europe which the Eastern Church seems to over romanticize and the story of Christ keeps getting whitewashed into European lore as opposed to finding it across all cultures in the world, especially how it was adopted across the indigenous populations of the Americas through the intercession of the Theotokos of Guadalupe. I think if both the Roman and Eastern churches are to survive, they need to start paying attention at how Christ has manifested across cultural dimensions alien to Europe and European art.
I have to disagree with the theory of there being more cristmas traditions in the colder, more northern countries. I'm from Mexico and I don't know of another country with more cristmas traditions and parties. We celebrate the anglo-saxon way, due to our influence from the US (cristmas tree, Santa Claus, yule log, gingerbread, mistletoe, hot wine with spices, advent wreath, advent calendar with chocolates, etc.) But we also celebrate the latin-Spanish way with villancicos, the Three Kings Festivity, Spanish Advent treats and dishes like turrón and Spanish cod, belenes/nacimientos, etc. And, if that wasn't enough, we also have Cristmas traditions that are the result of our syncretism between Spanish and pre-Hispanic religious practices like the 9 "posada" parties before xmas eve, the pastorelas, and the Candelaria Festivity. So all in all, Cristmas in Mexico starts with Advent and the celebration of our Lady of Guadalupe, and actually ends until February 2nd! We call it the "xmas marathon".
I literally just had the Zion Church patrons here sharing the inauthenticity of Christmas as a celebration of Jesus's birthday 🤦🏽♀️... I know that, but your not taking my Sun God Rā away! hmmpt
What detours me from celebrating Christmas goes back to what is talked about in the tanakh. The Lord says do not cut down the trees and drag them into your homes and ornament them. To me we are still doing the same thing He told us not to we just call it something different. The Lord shows us these patterns of mistakes we make over and over through history and the Christmas tree is one of those. The festivals we are to celebrate are simply the ones He gave us, not the Jewish holidays but the 7 (I think) festivals of the Lord that we do to remember and they are not burdensome, they are wholesale and bring the people together ❤. We were never to celebrate any man made festivities, we can say we do this for Him but it just takes us back to how He showed us we messed up worshipping Him how we see fit instead of how He says He wants worship. He never told us to celebrate Christmas so we don't. Why? Because He has a beautiful and perfect design for our lives and a worldly festivity throws our routine off and distracts us from the stewardship we've been given. It's a choice that I believe only the Lord gives us the conviction to act on. If you're not receiving the conviction to move away from Christmas id suggest rereading the tanakh and then deciding for yourself. I'm so looking forward to the return of the people to the Lord because it's after that He returns to us and removes the curses and replaces them with blessings!
@@silouanlane319 yes, and nothing in it convinced me to trespass the Word of the Lord by celebrating a manmade holiday. The Lord's festivals are wholesome and good.
Christmas in Holy Russia is on 7th January. This is old calendar which all genuine Orthodox follow. Thankfully received Russian citizenship just last year. Escaped from the corrupt West.
It amazes me the influences that you guys try to create some Christianized day. When doesn't exist and it might be more accurately. To call it just for the 20 fifth, his day of been conceived. Not his birth that's all fine. Well but you're trying to turn something into a magical christian day and it's
In the Soviet atheist Russia Christmas was not celebrated, so there appeared a substitute. The New Year took the role of Christmas celebration, the 🌲, presents and families and friends getting together. All bells and whistles. Now that the Orthodox Christmas is celebrated on the 7th of January,we get to have 2 Christmases, one on the middle of winter lent. Not very convenient, actually.
We have the same problem in the West if you follow the Old Calendar, as most people around here celebrate Christmas Dec 25. You can choose which to put more emphasis on, after all, the Church New Year is Sept 14 (Sept 1 Old Calendar)
@@leondbleondb- yes. If there’s propaganda that tries to push you to be a better person is that a bad thing? Propaganda is a tool. It’s just that ppl focus more on the bad instances of its use. It’s why ppl are rejecting the woke propaganda in advertising whereas in the past when it showed more wholesome things (propaganda to promote wholesomeness) ppl liked or at least tolerated the advertisements. Same with movies, music and other forms of media and art. There is a narrative being portrayed whether you like it or not. Every artist is biased and they might not be actively pushing “propaganda” but they are showing their bias to a narrative and someone might consider that propaganda. Note that the wholesome content ppl like is considered propaganda by the wokists. It’s in the eye of the beholder whether you think a narrative is propaganda or not.
Wouldn't you think that the letters to the gentiles would have directions for celebrating the feast days? You're robbing, the place of feast days is time. Markers for the jewish calendar in the coming of messiah
As much as I admire Richard and am deeply appreciative of the entire Universal History series, it is somewhat unsettling to see the naivety both he and Jonathan display towards the occult and how things of the occult work. No doubt they are far more familiar with it than either one of them let on. Yet the fact that they rarely address issues with any seriousness which should be central to their discussion, and instead dismiss concerns of pagan origins or occult influence as "fundamentalist" or as Protestantism taken to extremes, is simply poor scholarship. This is one of the key reasons I have difficulty crossing over into Orthodoxy. Among the Orthodox, the naivety about the kingdom of darkness and how it works is astounding -- and tragic. There seems to be no boundary to what they will not Christianize with the most facile of justifications. For example, Richard's explanation of Dickens' A Christmas Carol was a case in point. A story dripping with the occult, one must be especially oblivious of it, or willfully deceptive, to call this story, much less Dickens himself, Christian in any way. True, deception is the stock in trade of the occult but to be unable to recognize even the most evident signs of it, and instead throw virtually every single word, ritual, or belief of humankind into the bucket of Christianity in the name of Universal History does no favors to the faith the Apostles established. It makes it difficult to accept that this has much at all to do with "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" but is instead an intellectual game to justify the rampant but camouflaged idolatry that has infested Orthodoxy.
The idea of Christianizing pagan things goes all the way back to Acts 17:22-28. The poets St. Paul quotes in v.28 were talking about Zeus. They were true statements, just made about the wrong person. So ancient Christians still read Homer. St. Basil explains this in his Address to Young Men on the Right Use of Greek Literature. The fact pagans were capable of looking around and discerning truth makes them culpable for getting things wrong (Romans 1:20) but suggests they got some things right, and this is what Christians are free to mine from pagan sources. St. Justin also asserts this in his Second Apology: “Whatever things were rightly said among all men, are the property of us Christians.” This is because we worship the God who is the source of all truth. Likewise pagan traditions are not evil except for the part where they offer things to demons. If we burn a Yule log in the fireplace giving thanks to God for the light and warmth it provides, that isn’t accidental Odin-worship, it’s how a log is supposed to be used.
@@huntz0r You misread what I am saying. I realize Paul is quoting Greek poets who are referencing Zeus. And the altar inscription to the "unknown god" he references in v. 23 is certainly not the God of Israel. I get that. Even today the "unknown god" is used in the occult to reference "the god of this world". Further, I also love reading Hesiod, Homer, and Virgil. I am not sure how you construe from my post that Christians ought to stay away from pagan literature. No literature, pagan or secular, will be properly understood without the spirit of truth -- which is all the more reason we should engage with it. With respect, I don't find anything in your reply that counters my argument. Just as Christians can view pagan literature, customs, and beliefs in the light of the gospel of Christ, understand there is a spiritual war in which the kingdom of darkness takes Christian things and corrupts them. Being naive to this is nothing to be commended. It is with reason John describes the ancient dragon in Revelation 12 as he "who deceives the whole world" -- and that regrettably does not exclude today's Christians.
@@renrichardson6517 Compare the ancient Hebrew sacrifices to ancient pagan ones. They were similar in many ways. But the pagans were offering theirs to demons, and their rituals involved drunkenness, sexual immorality, divination, sometimes even murder and cannibalism. Obviously we would never offer God such detestable things. But there is nothing detestable about observing a solstice, or decorating your house with evergreens. If you are doing those things to honor a demon, then it’s sinful. If you’re doing them to honor God, who actually made the planets and the evergreens, it is a good thing. The pagans who converted and repurposed their old cultural customs to express Christian meanings knew what they were doing. The people converted, and so did the customs. The “corruption” you worry about is actually going in the other direction, with Christianity taking the things that had been given to demons and offering them back to God. Which is also what we’re doing with ourselves.
Christ wasn't born on the feast of Saturnalia/Mithras. Every single tradition of Christmas without exception is from pagan worship, with catholic sticker on it. God said not to 'honor' him as the pagans do their gods. I would rather offend man than my Lord.
I have to be honest. I have issues with modern Protestantism, and I appreciate things about Orthodoxy and Catholicism. But the more I hear about those, the more clear it is to me why the Reformation happened. When you study the Bible and compare it to what those churches do, it is clear how many layers and layers of man made traditions they’ve heaped on top of the faith, obscuring it from sight. I’m not saying it’s wrong to celebrate Christmas, but it needs to be kept in proper perspective. It is too easy to worship the traditions, while being completely ignorant about what it means. It seems the thing least discussed by any churches today is the gospel itself. Sin and redemption. The thing that actually offends people. Who was Jesus?
I often get the feeling Richard likes being a cool christian so it's hard for me to watch these sometimes. He craps on America, comes off as an ally ("I love ablack Panther"), and it seems like he has a bias towards the margin. My ears perk up when people talk about racism, especially white Americans, with so much visceral reaction, and I'm Mexican. I'm not like 🫨 racism! Speaking of puritanism.
I was hoping for the pagan origins of Xmas from Europe. After 10 min of preamble, this is just another Americanization, Christinanization...not for me. Too bad for me because I know both speakers are intelligent folks. Better luck next time.
I was listening to hear foundational scripture for doing Christmas. The Holy Scriptures is my final authority. Without scripture foundation it is not legitimate.
@@patriciaparker757as an Orthodox Christian I take scriptures along with the body of Church wisdom together to understand traditions, dogma, etc. Just as the Jews were required to follow both the law and the prophets before Christ, we are blessed in the Church to have knowledge and instruction emanating from thousands of years of Saints and clergy who help guide us. Of course scripture is an important source but taken alone will leave us mere mortals with too much division as we differ in our interpretations. My humble opinion and perspective i submit, Lord have mercy on me and glory to God in the highest!
Celebrating Jesus should be every day not a government catholic mandated date. .. Plus Jesus was born in September - and there was no x Mas tree Santa elves reindeer mistletoe pagan paraphanlia etc.at the manger... God is a jealous God. He destroyed the Jews several times due to idolatry...
St. John's father, Zechariah, was the Chief Priest in the Second Temple as per Luke 1:5-8. We notice that in Luke 1:9-10 that he's in the Holiest of Holies burning incense as everybody else waits outside. That seems to indicate that as per Leviticus 16:12 that this is Yom Kippur, the one time that someone is supposed to be in there. Yom Kippur is in September or October. Luke 1:13 and 1:23-24 indicate that this is when St. John the Baptist was conceived. So what about Jesus? Luke 1:26 begins immediately following St. John's conception, and its first words are, "Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth." ("In the sixth month" means the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy with John (v. 36)) So we're in late March, aroundish, say, March 25 (the date observed as the Annunciation). A human pregnancy lasts 9 months. Nine months after March 25 is what date? Oh right, December 25. Hence Christmas.
Jesus born in September works out to conceived in December. So if a person wants to be persnickity, about what happened when, take Christmas to be the very beginning of Christ's life in earth. That's worth celebrating too!
I hope someday you see the light and escape this Puritanical brainrot. The traditions of Christmas and other feast days are more Christian than whatever flavor of Protestant you are
In the Soviet atheist Russia Christmas was not celebrated, so there appeared a substitute. The New Year took the role of Christmas celebration, the 🌲, presents and families and friends getting together. All bells and whistles. Now that the Orthodox Christmas is celebrated on the 7th of January,we get to have 2 Christmases, one in the middle of the winter lent. Not very convenient, actually.
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Hey I'd like to see that List of Medieval Christmas songs that Richard mentioned
Done, and done! Can’t wait for the Summit!
I was just talking with my daughter about forgetting Christmas altogether this year. I have a prelit tree sitting undecorated, naked, empty in my living room. I have to choose between generating appointments to work in January or celebrating Christmas. There’s just not time for both. And I haven’t seen anything that suggests the meaning is still there, that it’s nothing more than a ridiculous , stressful celebration of excess by those who feel obligated to spend when they have nothing spend. I needed to hear this. I will celebrate. I will trust that January will be okay. There’s time to hang some evergreen and at least put a star on top of the tree. I have my nativity set up. And I will be in church for the midnight mass. I’ll light a candle and say a prayer. And I’ll do what I can to help those who need it. And this year, we’ll call that Christmas.
God bless and merry Christmas
This is so beautiful! It will be a very beautiful Christmas this year ❤ Merry Christmas! Glory be to Christ our Lord!
Merry Christmas! Glory be to Christ the Lord.
Amen brother! The Lord will bless you.
May it be blessed
"In our world too, a Stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world."
-CS Lewis, The Last Battle
“The more we are proud that the Bethlehem story is plain enough to be understood by the shepherds, and almost by the sheep, the more do we let ourselves go, in dark and gorgeous imaginative frescoes or pageants about the mystery and majesty of the Three Magian Kings.”
G.K. Chesterton
@@gabrielsyme4180 "and almost by the sheep" XD
The Orthodox Christmases are so glorious and joyful! This will be our third. And we have a lovely Christmas tree in our nave, and the joy of so many children in attendance during the Divine Liturgy is worth more than gold. Our parish has nearly quadrupled in new members and young families in the past three years; Glory to God!
Iam Greek orthodox.... I know what you mean
I normally get nervous when "the Christmas episode" appears in a series, but these Universal History episodes just keep getting better and better. Having heard this will make our family's Christmas so much richer. Thank you!!
Atheist seeker here 🙏❤
Living in Texas. I grew up Baptist until 12, and then my mom started going to Methodist Church. Her attitude changed and it really turned me off to religion. 40 now seeking the higher purpose
Praying for your journey!
Get a Rosary pray it daily. It is often very difficult to wrap your head around Christianity and the world view that comes along with it. Doing something with your hands singing/praying with your mouth will let you understand it on something more than a cerebral manner.
You might want to look at it like cosplay/meditation/yoga wherein people also perform a ritual to form a community albeit that those rituals lead to death.
In the end you should be able to see The World for what it is and your own state will be revealed. In my experience Catholocism is good for that maybe because unlike Orthodoxy it doesn't try to get everything right and doesn't run the risk of getting everything wrong.
Do a search for "confessional LCMS Lutheran church" in your area. That way you won't get a rock n roll church. If they have a choice between traditional or family service, go to the traditional service. Just sit and observe the first time. But it will be quite different from typical Baptist. It will seem formal. But the doctrines and hymns align with the old church fathers and hymn writers. God bless.
My favorite piece of Christmas music is For Unto Us A Child is Born from Handel’s Messiah.
Not sure if that qualifies as a hymn or is strictly sacred oratorio, but it moves me tremendously.
God bless you both!
One of the most catchiest songs I've ever heard. The melodies rival any pop song.
This is a wonderful and much-needed podcast. Bless you for it, Richard, and you, Jonathan, for hosting. We need to recapture this nexus of joy, especially as the world is suffering so much right now. I’ve been sharing the link to this ‘cast with family and friends. Let the Celebrations begin, let hope reign!
Joyeux Noël, Merry Christmas, Buon Natale
loved this talk. clarified so much for me about Christmas.
Id like to hear the list of Medieval Christmas songs Richard mentioned!
I think this should be public. Hope you enjoy!
ua-cam.com/play/PLaa3YkThO1y4OwaXUX-tQoUd8PkBSfmYk.html&si=mcLoJfuHZLLZfo8P
Same!
@@ju_jubes looks like quite a few people want to see the list!
On his youtube channel called "Richard Rohlin", he has a playlist called "A Very Medieval Advent". That is likely the song list being referenced, and I enjoyed listing to it last Christmas. Hope that helps.
@@Jeff-vu3ml yes. I linked that playlist earlier.
Around 36:00 Richard talks about giving in person being superior to giving from a distance. I understand his point, but one of my saddest experiences in recent years in my own city has been the increasing numbers of distressed people living outdoors, in various states of addiction and/or mental illness. It breaks my heart to see this, but also many of these people are potentially dangerous, and I'm a physically small older woman.
One day I was driving home from grocery shopping and passing by one of the usual sad spots, and there were a couple men from the local United Gospel Mission with a van full of food, water, socks and underwear, all sorts of helpful stuff, along with an invitation to the shelter and the programs they have to lift people up. I realized that I don't feel safe walking into that camp, but I can give money every month to the men who can actually do that. There is some kind of comfort in being able to help someone even indirectly.
A totally valid point!
There is a difference between what you're describing and giving via the internet. You are actually being present/in close proximity, just unseen. Great honor should be given both to the seen and to the unseen who are righteous.
Early English carols- The Holy and the Ivy, Sans Day Carol, Coventry Carol ("Lullay"), Past Three O'Clock (although verses were written later apparently), Boar's Head Carol, Good Christian Men Rejoice
These are ones I think people may recognize, but there are lots of others that are less known.
I have listened to this conversation twice at least.
Just realised what a schizoid world I lived in a catholic region of the 70''s Transylvania, Romania.The communist regime tried to replace Christmas with an unsuccessful attempt to rename it to the celebration of the Winter Tree. It was a little bit confusing for us children to have Father Winter as an officially recognised figure while privately everyone seemed to agree on, favour and practice the Mikulás who put small gifts in our shoes on the eve of December the 5th. And for us the Angel brought the Christmas tree no matter what they said. My mother told me stories about our versions of sniffers too. Women were reported because they cooked the traditional meals for the Christmas Eve's dinner. In a way those isms looked like distorted religion. Nothing in its proper place.
Thanks for Jonathan and Richard for this great conversation.
You guys are awesome and a great blessing. ❤
The Man Who Invented Christmas is one of my favorite Christmas movies! It’s really quite well done. But, I guess I’ve never studied Dickens.
I very much enjoyed that movie.
Merry Christmas all. Have a great 2024.
Watching from a bright, if slightly drizzly, Friday in NZ - where the temperature is climbing to 27°C. It's a pretty disjointed affair in NZ.
We have traditional Christmas meals, fake snow in the malls, and Christmas lights on houses that only get switched on after 9pm.
Thanks for the fascinating discussion. I'll live vicariously through you, as I listen to King's College's beautiful rendition of In The Bleak Midwinter.
God bless you all
Love never expressed dies.
A really important book for understanding Christmas from a Catholic, symbolic perspective is "Greek Myths and Christian Mystery" by Hugo Rahner SJ.
Some years back I read that the reason we all drag an evergreen tree indoors every December is that when Queen Victoria married Albert he brought his German tradition with him, and Victoria loved him to pieces (nine pregnancies' worth), so whatever he wanted was what happened. Then all the blue bloods started bringing Christmas trees indoors and it trickled down to the lower classes and then all over the empire (which meant all over the world at the time). I'm interested to know whether or not this story is widely considered to be true.
Thats what I heard. I understand the ancient germanic peoples stuffed evergreens indoors over the winter and its something we kept up even to today.
Look up St. Boniface .
I grew up in a Roman Catholic church, and now serve at a non-denominational Christian church that focuses on people in recovery, and other marginalized folks. I am blessed with a richness of celebration, and the “permission” to enjoy it all. Thanks for this beautiful episode. I’ll be listening to it more than once.
Richard! The man who invented Christmas is a great movie!!! Watch it!
You need to come to Romania, we have some of the craziest and most beautiful carols, boistrous caroling, dancing bears, pig killing, greenery, customs galore....
Thank you! I so agree with you on Christmas! I am always scared when people are dismissing Christmas as non Christian...I love it way to much and it is so deeply ingrained in us to want to do something important at that time of the year. I even asked my daughter to quit her (horeca) job to come home for Cristmas! She did quit and wil come this year (she lives in Spain we in Holland)! She will be looking for a new job next year...hahaha. What do we live for and work for if we can't even come home for Christmas?!
Growing up Independent Baptist, I actually heard one preacher say that if you switch two letters in Santa you get Satan…
I have to put this out there- I’ve always known and understood that I am a Protestant and have never given it too much thought. Watching more and more of Jonathan and other catholic/orthodox content has led me to the understanding that my own conservative Lutheran faith is FARRRRR from other Protestants. 😂 Way way closer to catholicism or orthodoxy than some absolutely BaNanAs denominations hollering about Christmas trees.
Yeah. Anglicans and Lutherans stuck quite close to traditional Christianity. I'm Anglican and all the fundamentalist American evangelicals worry about Easter and Christmas and All Saints Day being pagan and about whether everything is "Biblical" drives me a bit nuts.
Who else wants to start a fundraiser to buy Richard a mic equivalent in quality to his knowledge, wisdom and voice?
So what I take from this is "Jingle Bells, Batman smells, Robin laid an egg..." is actually part of a long tradition of Christmas songs.
LOL. We were singing it back in the 70's
The Batmobile lost one wheel and the Joker got away
Of course we say The South. We locate the whole world in our lived locality. Isn’t that what Universal History & ancient thinking is about? It can’t be both ways: we can’t be post-modern globalists and tradition-informed natural humans. And this has to inform minute thinking, like validating our common forms of thought & speech that arise from natural humanness vs. ideology. Not all “Americentrism” is evil. If Alaskan First Peoples can call themselves the Real People, I can refer to the south-eastern US former Confederacy as The South. Looking forward to the rest of the episode!
Fantastic episode, Richard. Great remarks about charity!
24:30 I'm listening from Australia 🦘🌏
Very insightful conversation. Thank you both. Keep it coming.
Looking forward to the Symbolic World conference!
Thank you for the Humor!!😂👍🙏🙏🙏
Thank you so much for this video.
Here to say that I also found Pageau because I was looking for people doing work related to Charles Taylor.
Thanks
I know Christians who don’t celebrate Christmas because they think its roots are pagan. I don’t care. I love Christmas. It’s magical. You can actually feel it. And you have to be an active participant in it to make it feel magical. It’s a requirement if you have children.
It’s not about the presents but the jolly feeling everyone has. Spending time with family. Blasting Christmas carols. Watching Christmas movies. Making cookies. Decorating the tree. Putting up lights.
Every time I see the Christmas tree I smile. We have a fake one we’ve been using for 20 years. But when it’s all done up and we turn on the lights, everyone in the house smiles.
It’s such a magical holiday. I don’t know why Christians refuse to celebrate it. It’s not just about Christ but also celebrating Western culture and history. It is a very important ritual. To not celebrate Christmas is to reject Western civilization.
Funny you note that it’s big in the South. I currently live in Tennessee and ppl here do NOT like to celebrate the “pagan” holidays like Easter, Halloween, and Christmas.
I think it’s madness. Very left wing where they throw tradition out assuming they know better.
That’s why I consider myself a traditionalist and NOT a conservative.
You answered your own question. "It's magical".... it's a counterfeit spirit...
@ drag0nfury1008
that is an example of word-concept fallacy. You’re seeing the word, and assuming the concept, or meaning, of the word; when in actuality, it has multiple meanings and manners of interpretation. So in this case, it may also be an example of “uncharitable”, as you are probably aware of these other meanings and interpretations; and you either choose or feel compelled to ignore those others in favor of the one that supports your already established world view.
It ~may be~ that the problem with people’s celebration of Christmas is that it is a “counterfeit spirit”, but your reply does not actually demonstrate that.
Those are the wierd people. They tend to be the same people who hate Halloween.
@@drag0nfury1008- I’m not talking about witchcraft. 🙄
It’s the feeling you get when everyone around you is feeling something special. It’s not describable except in the long paragraph I gave about the feeling of the time.
It’s the only time of year that everyone tells you to have a Merry Christmas. Meaning that they hope you have a great time spending time with loved ones, enjoying the festivities, celebrating Christ, and being happy in the darkest time of the year. I repeat, the DARKEST time of the year.
There’s lots of studies showing that ppl who live in gloomy and dark areas get depressed easily. So imagine a ritual that incentivizes you to spend time with loved ones and where they put up lights to counter the darkness.
The ritual of Christmas is there to stop ppl from getting too depressed in the middle of winter when everyone typically stays indoors and there isn’t enough sunlight.
Also, there’s planning gifts to give and in the past, ppl would spend their free time making gifts for their loved ones to give on Christmas. The thought of thinking someone as you make something is the act of service and the attention of love. And that’s happening as you make or think of a gift for ppl you love.
I just don’t understand why you would hate a holiday that celebrates loving each other during the darkest part of the year.
I love meself a good Christmas :P
veteran of the christmas war is more respectable than being a veteran of the emu wars
Is the Christmas War one of the Thousand Psychic Wars?
@@BenjaminFeehan Nice.
This is wonderful!!
PLEASE DO AN EPISODE DEDICATED TO A CHRISTMAS CAROL!
I would really like to hear your thoughts on Yule log. We have it in Serbia, Iraqi christians burn some wood in church yard. What would be the connection? Surely, pagan traditions of England, France and Iraq couldn't be the connection.
29:44 We call them scoptic songs here (Greece), from the Ancient Greek verb σκώπτω (skṓptō = to mock, scoff at) and are exactly that, songs about one's manly parts or -ahem- his good use of them, but in the Greek tradition these Bacchic songs are sung during the triodion period, especially on the last Sunday before Clean Monday and the beginning of Great Lent
In Belgium, Saint-Nicolas and Father Noel are two different people. Both brings presents on their respective schedule 😂
The enemies of all mankind do not like Christmas. They have been trying erase Jesus Christ.
Here in the Azores we carol for Candlemas. Only here it's the homefolk that offer the drinks to warm up the carolers.
Let's go!!!
WHERE IS THE PLAYLIST ROHLIN? WHERE IS IT?
Yes, where is the playlist??
On his youtube channel "Richard Rohlin", there is a playlist called "A Very Medieval Advent." This is the Christmas playlist that I am familiar with, and I believe was mentioned last Christmas on the podcast. Hope that helps.
Love me some traditional hymns & carols. Will Richard share the playlists?
Please
The Christmas Tree was popularized by Luther, the Nativity Scene by St Francis: on the ground ecumenicism.
In Argentina, we use "Papa Noel" to refer to Father Christmas also.
1:05:00 All of those dangerous mince pies around town! 😂
Chronological time is the domain of the holy spirit
"A very bizarre moment of 'reelizing' " Richard's unconscious Dad joke!! From one fiddler to another😂
Has someone found that Italian art nouveau artist and his postcard prints?....Could you send a link?
Without celebration time becomes meaningless. Without participation there is no memory. CASE CLOSED
You mention in the pod that you'll share Richard Rohlin''s medieval Christmas playlist. @Jonathanpageau, mind sharing that with us? I don't see it in the show notes.
On his youtube channel "Richard Rohlin", there is a playlist called "A Very Medieval Advent." This is the Christmas playlist that I am familiar with, and I believe was mentioned last Christmas on the podcast. Hope that helps.
Christians being Ebenezer Scrooge and saying “bah hum bug” to Christmas is definitely something I didn’t expect.
I grew up in Los Angeles where the Christians definitely celebrate Christmas. And now get persecuted for doing so. =\
Just in time
1:28:30
Celebrate Christmas, or Christmas will celebrate you.
Even in the USSR there were different periods, some more permissive than others.
"The Man Who Invented Christmas" wasn't bad. I think liberties were likely taken ... but they didn't try to turn it into any of the post-modern cr*p-fest. I liked it. "A Christmas Carol" is my favorite Christmas story, hands down.
Look up odin's wild hunt for some interesting parallels with Santa Claus
The wild hunt is a chase lead by a mythological figure (usually odin) riding through the thunderous skies during the winter storms with his hunting party consisting of elves or spirits or other beings
Finally 🎉
Here is an advent playlist Richard made (not sure if it’s the one he mentioned, but it’s still cool):
ua-cam.com/play/PLaa3YkThO1y4OwaXUX-tQoUd8PkBSfmYk.html&feature=shared
It suddenly occurred to me Saint Nicholas and Christmas punch... I wonder if there’s a psychic connection
Ha ha
Can I get some sources to read on Puritan anti-celebration? ~55:00
I've already read William Bradford's brief anecdote on Christmas from "Of Plymouth Plantation." Currently, I am in the middle of Iain Murray's "The Puritan Hope," and listening to Postmillennial people like Doug Wilson (shame on me; oh, the scandal!) who is all about "feasting and drinking," this anti-celebration disposition of Puritans is both remarkable and unsurprising. If we're going to talk about Apostolic tradition, then I would say that I believe in the Apostolic Hope (emphasized by developments among Puritans, hence Murray's term, "Puritan hope"). It seems pretty obvious that we should take hints from previous errors and correct them.
~59:00 I don't know about the rest of you, but in my experience, those who want to get rid of Christmas don't do it for moral reasons. They do it because they think it would somehow make worship "purer" (a la, Puritanism). They say things like, "It's a nice thought, but we know better now." I think we all know exactly what to think of that sentiment. Oddly enough, many of the proponents of banishing Christmas in my life have had little knowledge of Puritan teaching and were very much Dispensationalists.
Hogmanay without Posties Jig is just New Year's Eve.
One of the saddest things you don't realize when you're obsessed with Eastern Orthodoxy and don't pay attention to the rest of the world that was catechized by the Catholic Church of Rome is that Latin America celebrates Christmas as intensely as Europe. We barely have harsh winters, but we have harsh lives. Our context was one of human sacrifice and conquest. The Christmas season starts with the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which starts on Dec 9 (Gregorian) but fell on Dec 21 (Julian). We have the posadas and many other things worth noting. Here the Aztec would celebrate the birth of their god of the Sun, Huitzilopochtli, on the soltice, a warrior God who destroyed the moon to save his mother, the Earth. Our countries are as Orthodox with a Latin flavor as many in Europe which the Eastern Church seems to over romanticize and the story of Christ keeps getting whitewashed into European lore as opposed to finding it across all cultures in the world, especially how it was adopted across the indigenous populations of the Americas through the intercession of the Theotokos of Guadalupe. I think if both the Roman and Eastern churches are to survive, they need to start paying attention at how Christ has manifested across cultural dimensions alien to Europe and European art.
Theres also oriental orthodoxy which is not european.
great content i would love to see a collab with madebyjimbob
I wonder what everyone here thinks of the Whitehouse Christmas video that just came out.
Lol.
Post... Modern...
@@Tom-sd9jb oh definitely haha!!! it was repulsive on many levels.
Verbum caro factus est.
Mistletoe is literally a parasite... symbolism happens
I have to disagree with the theory of there being more cristmas traditions in the colder, more northern countries. I'm from Mexico and I don't know of another country with more cristmas traditions and parties. We celebrate the anglo-saxon way, due to our influence from the US (cristmas tree, Santa Claus, yule log, gingerbread, mistletoe, hot wine with spices, advent wreath, advent calendar with chocolates, etc.) But we also celebrate the latin-Spanish way with villancicos, the Three Kings Festivity, Spanish Advent treats and dishes like turrón and Spanish cod, belenes/nacimientos, etc. And, if that wasn't enough, we also have Cristmas traditions that are the result of our syncretism between Spanish and pre-Hispanic religious practices like the 9 "posada" parties before xmas eve, the pastorelas, and the Candelaria Festivity. So all in all, Cristmas in Mexico starts with Advent and the celebration of our Lady of Guadalupe, and actually ends until February 2nd! We call it the "xmas marathon".
25:55 - facts. Food or not? lol
I literally just had the Zion Church patrons here sharing the inauthenticity of Christmas as a celebration of Jesus's birthday 🤦🏽♀️... I know that, but your not taking my Sun God Rā away! hmmpt
What detours me from celebrating Christmas goes back to what is talked about in the tanakh. The Lord says do not cut down the trees and drag them into your homes and ornament them. To me we are still doing the same thing He told us not to we just call it something different. The Lord shows us these patterns of mistakes we make over and over through history and the Christmas tree is one of those. The festivals we are to celebrate are simply the ones He gave us, not the Jewish holidays but the 7 (I think) festivals of the Lord that we do to remember and they are not burdensome, they are wholesale and bring the people together ❤.
We were never to celebrate any man made festivities, we can say we do this for Him but it just takes us back to how He showed us we messed up worshipping Him how we see fit instead of how He says He wants worship. He never told us to celebrate Christmas so we don't. Why? Because He has a beautiful and perfect design for our lives and a worldly festivity throws our routine off and distracts us from the stewardship we've been given.
It's a choice that I believe only the Lord gives us the conviction to act on. If you're not receiving the conviction to move away from Christmas id suggest rereading the tanakh and then deciding for yourself.
I'm so looking forward to the return of the people to the Lord because it's after that He returns to us and removes the curses and replaces them with blessings!
Did… did you listen to the show?
@@silouanlane319 yes, and nothing in it convinced me to trespass the Word of the Lord by celebrating a manmade holiday. The Lord's festivals are wholesome and good.
watch the movie leave the world behind
Christmas in Holy Russia is on 7th January. This is old calendar which all genuine Orthodox follow. Thankfully received Russian citizenship just last year. Escaped from the corrupt West.
I believe that’s the day after 12th Night here. Which starts Epiphany aka Mardi Gras Season here.
That’s interesting.
🥰😘❣
Please help people in the south hemisphere understand Christmass during Summer! 😂
It amazes me the influences that you guys try to create some Christianized day. When doesn't exist and it might be more accurately. To call it just for the 20 fifth, his day of been conceived. Not his birth that's all fine. Well but you're trying to turn something into a magical christian day and it's
In the Soviet atheist Russia Christmas was not celebrated, so there appeared a substitute. The New Year took the role of Christmas celebration, the 🌲, presents and families and friends getting together. All bells and whistles. Now that the Orthodox Christmas is celebrated on the 7th of January,we get to have 2 Christmases, one on the middle of winter lent. Not very convenient, actually.
We have the same problem in the West if you follow the Old Calendar, as most people around here celebrate Christmas Dec 25.
You can choose which to put more emphasis on, after all, the Church New Year is Sept 14 (Sept 1 Old Calendar)
1:14:11 - not all propaganda/advertising is bad. There’s too much cynicism in the way modern ppl think.
Ok
@@leondbleondb- yes. If there’s propaganda that tries to push you to be a better person is that a bad thing? Propaganda is a tool. It’s just that ppl focus more on the bad instances of its use.
It’s why ppl are rejecting the woke propaganda in advertising whereas in the past when it showed more wholesome things (propaganda to promote wholesomeness) ppl liked or at least tolerated the advertisements.
Same with movies, music and other forms of media and art. There is a narrative being portrayed whether you like it or not. Every artist is biased and they might not be actively pushing “propaganda” but they are showing their bias to a narrative and someone might consider that propaganda.
Note that the wholesome content ppl like is considered propaganda by the wokists. It’s in the eye of the beholder whether you think a narrative is propaganda or not.
Wouldn't you think that the letters to the gentiles would have directions for celebrating the feast days? You're robbing, the place of feast days is time. Markers for the jewish calendar in the coming of messiah
As much as I admire Richard and am deeply appreciative of the entire Universal History series, it is somewhat unsettling to see the naivety both he and Jonathan display towards the occult and how things of the occult work. No doubt they are far more familiar with it than either one of them let on. Yet the fact that they rarely address issues with any seriousness which should be central to their discussion, and instead dismiss concerns of pagan origins or occult influence as "fundamentalist" or as Protestantism taken to extremes, is simply poor scholarship. This is one of the key reasons I have difficulty crossing over into Orthodoxy. Among the Orthodox, the naivety about the kingdom of darkness and how it works is astounding -- and tragic. There seems to be no boundary to what they will not Christianize with the most facile of justifications. For example, Richard's explanation of Dickens' A Christmas Carol was a case in point. A story dripping with the occult, one must be especially oblivious of it, or willfully deceptive, to call this story, much less Dickens himself, Christian in any way. True, deception is the stock in trade of the occult but to be unable to recognize even the most evident signs of it, and instead throw virtually every single word, ritual, or belief of humankind into the bucket of Christianity in the name of Universal History does no favors to the faith the Apostles established. It makes it difficult to accept that this has much at all to do with "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" but is instead an intellectual game to justify the rampant but camouflaged idolatry that has infested Orthodoxy.
The idea of Christianizing pagan things goes all the way back to Acts 17:22-28. The poets St. Paul quotes in v.28 were talking about Zeus. They were true statements, just made about the wrong person.
So ancient Christians still read Homer. St. Basil explains this in his Address to Young Men on the Right Use of Greek Literature. The fact pagans were capable of looking around and discerning truth makes them culpable for getting things wrong (Romans 1:20) but suggests they got some things right, and this is what Christians are free to mine from pagan sources.
St. Justin also asserts this in his Second Apology: “Whatever things were rightly said among all men, are the property of us Christians.” This is because we worship the God who is the source of all truth. Likewise pagan traditions are not evil except for the part where they offer things to demons. If we burn a Yule log in the fireplace giving thanks to God for the light and warmth it provides, that isn’t accidental Odin-worship, it’s how a log is supposed to be used.
@@huntz0r You misread what I am saying. I realize Paul is quoting Greek poets who are referencing Zeus. And the altar inscription to the "unknown god" he references in v. 23 is certainly not the God of Israel. I get that. Even today the "unknown god" is used in the occult to reference "the god of this world".
Further, I also love reading Hesiod, Homer, and Virgil. I am not sure how you construe from my post that Christians ought to stay away from pagan literature. No literature, pagan or secular, will be properly understood without the spirit of truth -- which is all the more reason we should engage with it.
With respect, I don't find anything in your reply that counters my argument. Just as Christians can view pagan literature, customs, and beliefs in the light of the gospel of Christ, understand there is a spiritual war in which the kingdom of darkness takes Christian things and corrupts them. Being naive to this is nothing to be commended. It is with reason John describes the ancient dragon in Revelation 12 as he "who deceives the whole world" -- and that regrettably does not exclude today's Christians.
@@renrichardson6517 Compare the ancient Hebrew sacrifices to ancient pagan ones. They were similar in many ways. But the pagans were offering theirs to demons, and their rituals involved drunkenness, sexual immorality, divination, sometimes even murder and cannibalism.
Obviously we would never offer God such detestable things. But there is nothing detestable about observing a solstice, or decorating your house with evergreens. If you are doing those things to honor a demon, then it’s sinful. If you’re doing them to honor God, who actually made the planets and the evergreens, it is a good thing.
The pagans who converted and repurposed their old cultural customs to express Christian meanings knew what they were doing. The people converted, and so did the customs. The “corruption” you worry about is actually going in the other direction, with Christianity taking the things that had been given to demons and offering them back to God. Which is also what we’re doing with ourselves.
@@huntz0rexactly. Christianity is largely about rightly aiming one’s worship.
Christ wasn't born on the feast of Saturnalia/Mithras. Every single tradition of Christmas without exception is from pagan worship, with catholic sticker on it. God said not to 'honor' him as the pagans do their gods. I would rather offend man than my Lord.
I have to be honest. I have issues with modern Protestantism, and I appreciate things about Orthodoxy and Catholicism. But the more I hear about those, the more clear it is to me why the Reformation happened. When you study the Bible and compare it to what those churches do, it is clear how many layers and layers of man made traditions they’ve heaped on top of the faith, obscuring it from sight.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to celebrate Christmas, but it needs to be kept in proper perspective. It is too easy to worship the traditions, while being completely ignorant about what it means. It seems the thing least discussed by any churches today is the gospel itself. Sin and redemption. The thing that actually offends people. Who was Jesus?
This “refusal to dance” mindset in itself presupposes a man made tradition, sola scriptura.
I often get the feeling Richard likes being a cool christian so it's hard for me to watch these sometimes.
He craps on America, comes off as an ally ("I love ablack Panther"), and it seems like he has a bias towards the margin.
My ears perk up when people talk about racism, especially white Americans, with so much visceral reaction, and I'm Mexican. I'm not like 🫨 racism! Speaking of puritanism.
Phew… I thought this might be some perennialist garbage! Nooo! Praise God!
I was hoping for the pagan origins of Xmas from Europe. After 10 min of preamble, this is just another Americanization, Christinanization...not for me. Too bad for me because I know both speakers are intelligent folks. Better luck next time.
There was a video about him talking about Christmas' origin being pagan years ago. As you say, better luck next time.
I was listening to hear foundational scripture for doing Christmas. The Holy Scriptures is my final authority. Without scripture foundation it is not legitimate.
Because it’s not .
Everything about Christmas has always been about Jesus.
No other god.
@@acaydia2982 lol, that's hilarious, how blind are you? keep believing your bs
@@patriciaparker757as an Orthodox Christian I take scriptures along with the body of Church wisdom together to understand traditions, dogma, etc. Just as the Jews were required to follow both the law and the prophets before Christ, we are blessed in the Church to have knowledge and instruction emanating from thousands of years of Saints and clergy who help guide us. Of course scripture is an important source but taken alone will leave us mere mortals with too much division as we differ in our interpretations. My humble opinion and perspective i submit, Lord have mercy on me and glory to God in the highest!
Celebrating Jesus should be every day not a government catholic mandated date.
.. Plus Jesus was born in September - and there was no x Mas tree Santa elves reindeer mistletoe pagan paraphanlia etc.at the manger... God is a jealous God. He destroyed the Jews several times due to idolatry...
He sure was!!! Nice to know people are finding out about this hiding history
St. John's father, Zechariah, was the Chief Priest in the Second Temple as per Luke 1:5-8. We notice that in Luke 1:9-10 that he's in the Holiest of Holies burning incense as everybody else waits outside. That seems to indicate that as per Leviticus 16:12 that this is Yom Kippur, the one time that someone is supposed to be in there. Yom Kippur is in September or October.
Luke 1:13 and 1:23-24 indicate that this is when St. John the Baptist was conceived.
So what about Jesus?
Luke 1:26 begins immediately following St. John's conception, and its first words are, "Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth." ("In the sixth month" means the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy with John (v. 36)) So we're in late March, aroundish, say, March 25 (the date observed as the Annunciation).
A human pregnancy lasts 9 months. Nine months after March 25 is what date? Oh right, December 25. Hence Christmas.
You must be fun at parties… v.v
Jesus born in September works out to conceived in December. So if a person wants to be persnickity, about what happened when, take Christmas to be the very beginning of Christ's life in earth. That's worth celebrating too!
I hope someday you see the light and escape this Puritanical brainrot. The traditions of Christmas and other feast days are more Christian than whatever flavor of Protestant you are
Find a video of Charles after the correlation. He looks rough
PLEASE DO AN EPISODE DEDICATED TO A CHRISTMAS CAROL!
In the Soviet atheist Russia Christmas was not celebrated, so there appeared a substitute. The New Year took the role of Christmas celebration, the 🌲, presents and families and friends getting together. All bells and whistles. Now that the Orthodox Christmas is celebrated on the 7th of January,we get to have 2 Christmases, one in the middle of the winter lent. Not very convenient, actually.