Remember to like and share if you enjoyed this. And please suggest more great topics for Universal History episodes. - Learn more about our course, Universal History: Beowulf on the Symbolic World website, where we presented 6 classes covering the Beowulf epic and went into much more depth about dragons: thesymbolicworld.com/news/the-beowulf-course-by-richard-rohlin-and-jonathan-pageau - Support the God’s’Dog: Warrior Kickstarter that launched this week: www.kickstarter.com/projects/symbolicworldpress/godsdog-warrior
It would be interesting to talk about Spain, maybe their arrival to America (I'm Argentinian). There are many relations between Saint Christopher and Cristopher Columbus: the foreigner who carried Jesus to the other side of the waters. Thank you
Speaking of patterns Jonathan, I'm starting to notice one throughout these years that I've been following you: GREEK: Asclepius and Hermes ARE AND WERE GREEK. JUST WAS AND IS SAINT GEORGE! JUST AS THE BIBLE (SEPTUAGINT, NEW TESTAMENT AND APOCALYPSE) the entirety written in the GREEK. AND the iconography Jonathan. And the use of all those colors in the CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX iconography that you practice Jonathan. HISTORICAL FACTS: Asclepius (/æsˈkliːpiəs/; Greek: Ἀσκληπιός Asklēpiós [asklɛːpiós]; Latin: Aesculapius) is a hero and god of medicine in ancient Greek religion and mythology. He is the son of Apollo and Coronis, or Arsinoe, or of Apollo alone. Asclepius represents the healing aspect of the medical arts; his daughters, the "Asclepiades", are: Hygieia ("Health, Healthiness"), Iaso (from ἴασις "healing, recovering, recuperation", the goddess of recuperation from illness), Aceso (from ἄκεσις "healing", the goddess of the healing process), Aegle (the goddess of good health) and Panacea (the goddess of universal remedy). He has several sons as well. He was. LATER associated with the Roman/Etruscan god Vediovis and the Egyptian Imhotep.He shared with Apollo the epithet Paean ("the Healer").] The rod of Asclepius, a snake-entwined staff, (similar to the caduceus) remains a symbol of medicine today. Those physicians and attendants who served this god were known as the Therapeutae of Asclepius.
GREEK: Asclepius (/æsˈkliːpiəs/; Greek: Ἀσκληπιός Asklēpiós [asklɛːpiós]; Latin: Aesculapius) is a hero and god of medicine in ancient Greek religion and mythology. He is the son of Apollo and Coronis, or Arsinoe, or of Apollo alone. Asclepius represents the healing aspect of the medical arts; his daughters, the "Asclepiades", are: Hygieia ("Health, Healthiness"), Iaso (from ἴασις "healing, recovering, recuperation", the goddess of recuperation from illness), Aceso (from ἄκεσις "healing", the goddess of the healing process), Aegle (the goddess of good health) and Panacea (the goddess of universal remedy). He has several sons as well. He was LATER associated with the Roman/Etruscan god Vediovis and the Egyptian Imhotep.[1] He shared with Apollo the epithet Paean ("the Healer").[2] The rod of Asclepius, a snake-entwined staff, (similar to the caduceus) remains a symbol of medicine today. Those physicians and attendants who served this god were known as the Therapeutae of Asclepius.
Sorry, gentlemen, but I'm going to have to be the first to request another video on the symbolism of the dragon! What is the sinificance of the dragon protecting water, yet breathing fire? What is the significance of the dragon protecting water, as in the primordial waters in Gensis on which Christ walks? What is the significance of the dragon protecting water, but not inhabiting the water, or having any aquqatic features, but instead having the ability to fly? What is the relationship between the dragon and the mountain? Here in Wales, these are particularly interlinked. What is the significance of the dragon often being able to talk? And how does that differ from other beasts in its ability to formulate reason in speech? What is the significance of dragons, not just being killed by men, but being ridden? How do dragons manifest themselves in the world? As inteligences, as principalities, as demons? Even as Longaevi? I'm overflowing with questions! I know much of this was touched upon, but with the focus on the universal history of dragons, I got the feeling there was a lot more to discuss symbolically Thanks for your hard work; absolutely loving the content!
Dragons are associated with water and mountains; many have been thought to live in the ocean, Leviathan being just one. Maybe they like mountains because that's where many natural resources are i.e precious stones and metals, and there are caves to live in. The reason they would be able to communicate differently than animals is because they're angels (fallen or not). Or maybe the other A word. Not from here. The only lore I've been able to find so far about riding dragons is the Solomonari. Wizards who ride dragons and control the weather. The lore associates them as evil because they were taught magic in a school in Transylvania by the devil. But their name suggests roots in Solomonic teachings. All secret societies stem from Kabbalah teachings which includes secret teachings of Solomon. I think there is an apocryphal book that talks about a ring Solomon has that he controlled demons with to build the temple. I'm very convinced the Vatican has suppressed a lot of "magical" things associated with scriptures and hidden some things in plain site. I think, and it sounds as if they agree, that seraphims are literal dragons, some of which were fallen angels who bred with human women. I believe they established secret societies and usurped the earthly throne of kings.
Studying folklore in Japan (specifically one story of the 8 headed dragon in the Kojiki) really was huge in my developing into an Orthodox Christian. Peterson Pageau pipeline and living in the Far East helped me to face east.
Gött o se en Göteborgare här :) . Vi har en rätt så stor församling här i Götet om du vill besöka nån gång förresten (du kanske redan besöker? Hallvard här :P)
@@pastverb1 And now that I think about it, while it may be accidental, I do see similarities between him and leviathan. I wonder if the reason that movie monster has continued on is because it is drawing on some old universal patterns.
Yes, Godzilla only awakens when nuclear radiation disturbs (that is, poisons) the ocean. And he targets the technological society that produced the nuclear radiation. So, Godzilla is a defender of Feminine Nature against the Masculine thunder god of technology. In fact, a nuclear strike is much akin to a thunder bolt striking the earth.
Among the Slavs there is actually a word difference between a good & evil serpent/dragon. In Poland 'żmij' was used for a positive serpent while 'smok' was used for a negative serpent. Nowadays the word smok is much more popular is generally used as the Polish equivalent of 'dragon'. Żmijs were associated with weather, water bodies & crops and were set to be fighting the bad smoks in the sky. The European adder snake that lives also in Poland is called 'żmija' here, which is the feminine of 'żmij'. The most famous dragon story in Poland is the story of Smok Wawelski (the Wawel Dragon) who is said to live under the Royal Hill in Cracow and terrorized the local people. It is said it was slained by the founder of the city king Krak (Grakh). It was tricked into eating a cattle skin filled with sulflur and died from it or from overdrkinking from the Vistula river to quench the fire in the stomach from the sulflur. There are also different versions where it is his sons that kill the dragon, or a Cracovian shoemaker called Skuba or Dratewka. The Polish region of Masovia (where the current capital of Warsaw is located) had traditionally a dragon, next to an eagle, in their coat of arms. There is actually a theory that it comes from the Wessex dragon that was brought there by Magnus, son of the last Anglo-Saxon king of England Harold, who left England & became a count in Silesia & Masovia in the 11th century. Although it may be also just an adoption of a universal dragon symbolism by the Masovians.
Fascinating thanks. I'm English and grew up in the Soviet era, eastern Europe was just a blank spot in my mind. I moved to Australia in the 1990s and feel I have a very poor grasp on the Baltic/Volga relationship - we are linked by the water between us -something modern scholars appear to understand estimate.
@@AndyJarman Thank You. Other fun fact I could add is that there is also a predator dinosaur fossils found in Poland in 2008, which were later named as 'Smok wawelski' which is now the official scientific name for the species. And when speaking about medieval connections between England & Poland, there was a Polish princess Świętosława (Sigrid), daughter of the first historical ruler of Poland Mieszko, who married Sweyn Forkbeard & was the mother of the Danish king of England, Cnut the Great.
In Serbia we also have differences between the "good" dragons :Zmaj and the "evil" dragon 'Ala. Dragons are called Zmaj even today. Ala is derived from greek Hala, which means hail(Indo European origin of the word). Zmaj are protectors of farms while Ala the personification of bad weather destroys them. Ala has fairy tales that are quite similar to Russian tales of Baba Yaga.
This is my favorite series in UA-cam. I'm learning so much about familiar stories that I've never been able to make the connections on my own. Each episode is a treat and I never want it to end. I could listen to this for months, and I still wouldn't possess the knowledge that these two men have in their heads.
Was just going to post the same thing. I would love for Tim Mackie to speak with Pageau and Rohlin about Dragons and quite honestly a 100 other things:)
@@RobbRheinlander I completely agree with you! I absolutely loved the dragon series Tim and John did! Tim is amazing and I love the questions John asks and how he will ask it over and over until he gets an answer he understands! It’s really interesting listening to what these guys have to say and what Tim and John have to say! I’ve learned so much from both of them!
I grew up Catholic and inexplicably I went through a phase in 2nd-4th grade where I become enamored with drawing a Griffon. I never really recall seeing an image of one but have vague memories of Alexander the Great imagery in a school lesson, general Catholic religious education etc…but I could draw it, no problem. It was definitely a hybrid creature in my mind and somehow akin to the Seraphim, I was fascinated by it. On my first communion banner I made a felt Griffon to adorn the side of my pew. Somehow this made perfect sense to me as a child. There’s no way I could have explained why this was universal and makes perfect symbolic sense, yet somehow I knew it intuitively. Fascinating discussion.
Amazing how these deep things play out in our imagination if their given space. Has the griffon started in your imagination over the years? I'm grateful to be shown the value in this "mode of cognition" in time to hopefully help my children respect and cultivate it as they grow.
@@pastverb1 it has. I have type 1 diabetes going on 30 years now. I have always been in good control but until I truly confronted how I would have to live with it my adult life, I developed what I would call a shadow or dragon on my back. I started going into this dark wood and confronting it and with the help of Christ about 7-8 years ago. When I would have breakthroughs on this journey pointing to what I must cut off or add to my being in order to not let the disease have control of me, it would inevitably involve a sort of dragon like or griffin like hybrid video game style boss that I had to contend with and confront or slay in crazy dream.
Dragons created this world, and every culture that interacts with the other side eventually gets this info. It's pretty amazing for me going through Jonathan's videos and seeing how much he gets right abought dragons, just stories and knowledge of symbolism. As an atheist in 2022, I accidentally entered the spirit world for the first time, met the dragon god Tiamat, and learned that I'm a dragon myself. From first hand experience and knowledge, I now know that dragons are everywhere and are doing a lot in the world today.
I haven't seen any of the class on Dante's Divine Comedy, but after taking a (phenomenal) class on it in college, I highly recommend learning more about the story. Underrated in a way.
For those wondering about what he said about ferrets and weasels, look up "Weasel War Dance". I find mention of this amusing also because of ferret's hording proclivities. I called my ferrets "little dragons" for how they obsessively amass piles of things pilfered from around the house and then spend their time sleeping/protecting the them. My albino would get REALLY offended if we liberated her stash of stolen toothbrushes, combs, and anything else rubbery and wouldn't rest until she'd reclaimed enough of it to appease her nesting instinct. Ferrets and weasels are also notorious little tricksters and the former love to tease and provoke both humans and other pets.
If you guys could make things like the Beowulf course with some kind of kid friendly material for homeschool families I could totally justify the expense as part of my curriculum budget! It’s tricky to go through all your material and try to pull out the things that I can use for my 4 elementary-age boys, but worth the effort. Y’all are incredible and I’ve learned a TON from you, so thank you!
*Homelessness is a subtle form of genocide.* What do you think? Have you taken in, or personally funded the meals of homeless people in your community?
In my city, all of the free food programs except one are run out of or by churches, including mine. They use the tithes given by members to fund these operations. My old church prior to moving operated a shelter for abused women and children as well. This is quite common among evangelical churches. Churches used to be the main benefactor if orphans before the state decided to stop that practice.
@@privatecitizen4001In addition to that, it is quite obvious to say that Jesus paid the tithe, as commanded by the Law, of which goes to the Priests, Levites, and . . . The Poor!
AAAGH!!! This conversation just blew open a story stuck in my head for two years now but would never quite come together. THANK YOU! There were pieces of the system of symbols I had in the story not even realizing they were such (the uncle / nephew being the slayers, and even a dramatic confrontation between the dragon and the storm) yet other elements I was missing or had inverted. Thank you for this!
JBP described dragons as an amalgam of primate/hominid ur-fears: fire, serpent, large cat and perhaps large hunting bird. So that all fits with the idea of mixture/hybridity… whether it’s cause or effect is neither here nor there. Amazing video. Interesting connections.
Growing up on the west coast around indigenous culture, I’ve known about the Thunderbird mythology for pretty much my whole life and this is the first time I’ve made the connection that the THUNDERbird is a dragon!! It was a kind of epiphany but it’s so obviously a dragon myth. The thing has horns and teeth!!
Symbolism and metaphor spark our imaginations, and we can fit these symbols like jigsaw puzzles into our beliefs and assumptions. Empirical evidence, though, is far more frightening and not so conducive to our narrative. We are heros and damsels in our fantasies; yet true reality--- well, maybe these don't fit so snuggly.
At 19:00 going off the snake theory. Then snakes would have a certain power, a monkey will stare at it for hours taking away some of it's freedom. They can kill with one bite and easily down people even. Just from that snakes in some sense represent power in something, or someone. At 25:00 the garden with the four rivers reminds me of a similar distant myth that was popular in older Buddhism. Lake Anavatapta, which also had a dragon who was free from the worries other dragons had by becoming wise. The lake could only be found by a bodhisattva (person who's becoming enlightened) and it would help metaphorically "wash away their sins". Usually done by a wise guardian spirit of some sorts on the other side of the lake and the bodhisattva having to cross it to get to him. Lastly, four mythical rivers are sometimes identified with the Ganges (east), the Indus (south), the Amu Darya (west), and the Tarim (north) flowed from this lake.
I'm pretty sure this is the first universal history episode that I've watched, and it was epic. Just epic. 😅 The one thing that it would have been nice to hear more about is dragons' connection to the air, and a "composite" like was mentioned at the beginning and how it relates to hybridity.
I was reading that part of the Persian Dragon tradition is the idea that when snakes become massive (like over 30 m), they're thrown into the sea where they keep growing larger, grow wings, and become sea monsters. And then the waves of the ocean are attributed to the flapping of their wings.
Loved this video! On point with everything said. I belong to an ancient Chinese ethnic group and our mythology has a dragon dog who slays a king and wins the princess.
Wow. This video shocked me. I had a dream a few years ago where I encountered a dragon and it's consort? Anyway it told me it's name which I didn't remember, but it also told me it's title. "I am the eternal guardian of the divine realm". This helped me a lot with understanding that.
I had a weird "dragon" dream when I was about 12/13 years old. This was right about the time I was being confirmed and my confirmation saint that I chose (and still is) is st raphael. Anyways, during this period I had a number of strange dreams. The dragon one being where I was in world that was consumed by fire. The sky was purple, orange and red from the fires coming from the ground...and I was falling down (or running towards) a huge lake that's waters looked incredibly dark. In the middle of the lake was a dragon, and instead of feeling scared, I knew in my heart that this dragon was my friend. Like, when people describe their "ayuhuasca" experiences of feeling pure light and love, was similar to how I felt when I approached the dragon. I also had another dream where I was in my childhood home, and in the back door there were a bunch of black, angry dogs. I remember my sister opening the back door and these dogs jumped on us. I felt the dogs clamping down on my arms and my legs. I wasn't scared in this dream, but rather, determined to escape. I'm 26 now and these dreams have always stayed with me
This was one of the most fascinating discussions I have heard in a long time. I truly appreciated the engagement and the veering off topic. I find that when the most passionate teachers do this the students often receive more than they ever expected. I appreciate you both Jonathan and Richard. @Jonathan I believe you mentioned Christ becoming the snake but didn't get too in-depth on that concept can you divulge further? Is there a video you have taught on this? @Richard I believe that you mention that God describes himself as a dragon. I found that intriguing when I heard this live yesterday. This morning I randomly open my Bible to Isaiah 26-28, and the first thing I read in 27:1-5, it seems that God is not only the Dragon Slayer but the true and righteous dragon. I don't believe that's the point of the passage (to determine God to be a dragon), but I find the symbology very fascinating, given the descriptions of dragons being protectors of certain things, especially water and gardens. Isaiah 27 seems to have subtle language of God as a dragon. I would like to see both your thoughts on this. Isaiah 27:1-5; 8 (ESV): 1 In that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. 2 In that day, “A pleasant vineyard, sing of it! 3 I, the Lord, am its keeper; every moment I water it. Lest anyone punish it, I keep it night and day; 4 I have no wrath. Would that I had thorns and briers to battle! I would march against them, I would burn them up together. 5 Or let them lay hold of my protection, let them make peace with me, let them make peace with me. 8 Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them; he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind. Thank you again for the content and discussion. God bless you.
I never thought of Jesus’ admonition to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves being symbolized by a winged dragon. Also, any thoughts on the strange thing that in February we literally ‘eat hearts’ for Valentine’s Day?!!!
In the Brazilian folklore we also have a dragon, though it is a good one: Boitatá, a gigantic serpent that breathes fire (or have eyes of fire or its body is on fire [sometimes it's all of them at the same time]), lives on the waters and protects the forests (especially against hunters and human fires). "Boitatá" is the junction of the tupi words "mba'e" (thing) and "tatá" (fire), thus meaning "thing of fire". The Boitatá is also conected with the will-o'-wisp, being that if you are seeing them you are seeing Boitatá's eyes. Normally depicted as masculine, sometimes the Boitatá is also depicted as a feminine being [though this one is generally more recent]. One of the first registers of Boitatá was by Father José de Anchieta in 1560 (Brazil was found in 1500). Besides Boitatá, we have another, much less known, evil dragon: Boiuna, a giant snake from the North Region (especially the Amazonian Region). "Boiuna" comes from the tupi "mbóiuna", that is the junction of the words "mbói" (snake) and "una" (black), thus meaning "black snake". Boiuna is also called big-snake, mother-of-the-river or lady-of-the-waters. So while Boitatá is generally depicted as a male serpent, Boiuna is a female one. It is said that Boiuna lives among the rocks of rivers and lakes, from where it comes to sink boats. When it comes out, it thunders, throws lightning and makes rain; though if the rain is too heavy and threatens a flood, Boiuna turns into a rainbow and calms the waters. It is also said that the Moon is its head, the stars its eyes and the rainbow its blood. Boiuna can also imitate the shapes of boats, attracting castaways to the bottom of the river, or take the form of a woman.
It's very interesting to learn that the snake is associated with salmon in Finland to dragons considering that salmon return to their spawning place to reproduce. But, it may also refer to the colour of salmon as well as, or instead of.
I love this discussion. Fascinating. I’ve always thought dragons were so cool since I was a little boy. I’d would pretend to ride them with my friends as we played with wooden sticks and swords in our awesome fantasy backyard worlds.
Just watched Prince of Egypt again the other day with my son, this talk of dragons and serpents made me think of the staff turning into a serpent in Exodus and Gods serpent devoured the pharaohs sorcerers serpents . Pretty cool
I recently had a transformative experience: I wrote a letter to a girl with whom I had been friends for 5 years and had fallen in love with her and told her that in all honesty I could muster, and got her answer back, which was in a sense a rejection, but because it was written with so much love and pure, brutal honesty, I actually felt incredibly empowered by it, like a was suddenly freed from things I didn't even know had been chaining me. My imagination processed that by coming up with the image of myelf as a DRAGON-RIDER, and I the way I interpret that is that if I truly have my full act together (which means, I harmonize and integrate my inner archetypal Warrior, Magician, Lover, and King, and serve truth & love) I can actually use the most powerful, emotionally challenging experiences as a chance to grow (like the Dragon taking me upwards to the next level). So I'm curious what you think about the symbol of the Dragonrider (and I pray they don't mess up the new Eragon movies).
Sir Michael Tippet’s ‘The Mask of Time’ features the serpent as the guardian of paradise, in the 5th scene at end of part one called ‘Dream of the Paradise Garden’.
Richard, also a Sharknado fan?! 😂🤣😂🤣 That‘s such a relief! I can’t wait for you to get into other shark hybrid B movies! 😂 Nachustan was the Serpent Moses put on the staff.
First of all, congratulations on this amazing talk, just as always incredibly illuminating, I am very thankful for this. Second thing, are you aware of the work by Galahad Eridanus? You talking about snakes, mostly the figure of the two snakes facing eachother down the Cross is very reminiscent of his Abraxian Cosmogram and his way of representing the struggle of Ahriman and Lucifer. His way of positioning and understanding the symbol of the Ouroboros as the two snakes at once and naming it the Artifex is just exactly what you're talking about here. In time, I'll try to be more clear and I'll try to write about this here more eloquently, but I can't help but recognise a very deep resonance on this.
My favoeite modern dragon is Godzilla. His last two Japanese films- 2016's Shin Godzilla and last year's Godzilla Minus One- are both excellent and display a lot of the characteristics that you two discussed here. Feels worthy if a video, especially for Shin Godzilla.
@davidking2215 it's a very different film but also excellent. Just make sure you watch with subtitles. The English dub is terrible. Also try not to see anything else but the main trailer. It's the first one that pops up and UA-cam.
46:30 I go to a Presbyterian church lol that's not gonna happen there lol. Presbyterians perform and see baptism more as a Christening or blessing which reflects in its form, being a sprinkling of water from above. I don't necessarily agree with calling at baptism but its still a valuable ritual. I suppose its not completely disassociated wit dragons bc it still involves water, but its more of a post slaying of the dragon that produces living useful water rather than chaotic salt water that kills you.
Thinking of the sereph's role as a gaurd at the edge of the garden reminds me of Prometheus reaching up for fire when the the serpent is encountered in the middle of paradise by Eve.
Speaking of dragons, I would love to get an explanation of The Symbolic World's new logo. I'm a bit confused as to why there's no apparent symbol of order. Also wondering what the three birds stand for.
Has anyone been struck by the different recent dragon stories wherein people ride/train/tame dragons as being a kind of reflection of current hubris of people controlling the forces of nature to suit human aims? This theme seems very recent. Maybe 50 years or so. Something to ponder
maybe northern european cultures had less dependence on water scarcity? Not as agrarian? Maybe the guarding of precious water sources was less a thing in Celtic lands where it rained every other day. However, holy wells were important. Were holy wells a thing in drier climates?
I thought this was a very informative video. & I’m happy you guys did it. But this video begs a very important question. A question whose answer I believe may prove pivotal in the undoing of modern simplistic materialism. That question is: “How do disparate cultures all come up with the same myths symbols (especially if those cultures have no communication) If the universe is meaningless or unintelligible it would be impossible to create true myth, narrative or symbol. If knowledge or meaning structures were not preexistent (exist before man discovered them) it would be impossible for all cultures to describe the same thing. Perhaps you two can tackle this idea. I think it has enormous power. It also resolves the atheist attacks you discussed in the video that Christianity is a mere retelling of other narratives. Also a side note. One of my favorite proofs for Christianity is it answers every universal pagan myths with an inversion. And thought it seems impossible to comprehend the inversion contains true practical utility (loving enemies etc)
One theory is that these myths spread with human migration. Another is that they all experienced similar things, the latter being more plausible in my mind. The Noah story is seen globally. Giants are in the lore globally, as are dragons. Kulkulkan/Quetzalcoatl are basically dragon gods of the Mayans and Aztecs. Their lore from their ancestors said those gods built their pyramids and taught them their culture. The Book of Enoch describes good and bad watchers who were seraphim (fiery flying serpents). They were the watchers of humanity. If the fallen angels taught forbidden things, it insinuates they were keepers of knowledge so it's entirely plausible they taught humans and gave them laws to live by before they fell, and perhaps the good watchers continued to do this after the flood as the lore of the Mayan states they were brought to mesoamerica after a catastrophic flood but this insinuates that Noah and his family weren't the only survivors.
I have been curious for over a decade now, the symbolism of the ancestor soul in the Maori culture in New Zealand and how close they come to the image of the dragon, because like you said hard to define, but you know when you see one. We lived there for 10 years, now in the USA, and I think someone from in the Maori culture might say I’m wrong to consider it a symbol because it’s an image of their ancestors. There’s no disrespect or coldness intended. I think I will search myself and the various cultures for meaning and understanding for a long time before I’m satisfied with an understanding of the imagery that was chosen there, however, the sense of guardianship by these images it’s very clear now after listening to this conversation. You don’t get the feeling that these images were chosen by humans when you’re living inside that culture, but rather the images chose to manifest themselves there.
Smaug has become the ur-dragon for me. Serpent-like, red, winged, spewing fire and hoarding goal and treasure. He's intelligent but proud. He's eventually killed by being struck from below by an arrow.
"In the West, dragons hoard gold and not water" Even there, you have a sort of a bridging-tale -- Fafnir takes the Rhine=gold away from the Rhine-maidens, the Rhine of course being a river.
Since you asked, I'll share my ideas about what dragons might be. First, let's distinguish between natural dragons (dinosaurs) and spirit dragons (fallen seraphim). The natural dragons may have in some instances become receptacles for the demons in a way similar to the Gardarene swine, and in these cases the two overlap. It also seems possible to imagine that the fall of Lucifer was "before the foundation of the world," and hence the dinosaurs may have been created as receptacles for their souls from the outset, but that is pure speculation. When we look at the Welsh story of the red dragon and white dragon fighting with one another, taken from the "Vita Merlini," or Life of Merlin by Geoffery of Monmouth, c. 12th century, we see an interesting pattern revealed; each dragon here represents a race. There is a red one for the Welsh and a white one for the Saxons. This has led me to speculate about an association between dragons and the supposed seventy "cosmokrators," the Watchers who preside over each of the seventy races of mankind established after the Flood and subsequent confusion of the languages at Babel. These fallen angels each have as their principality, a created race of mankind. And if they are also spirit dragons, then they are each the dragon of a particual race, like we see in the 'Vita.' That would accord with the dual function of protection and hoarding, making them the spirit which jealously guards the racial lands, giving strength in battle to warriors who fight to police their boundaries. They both protect their sovereign lands and hoard the souls of the damned which thereby belong to them in Lucifer's kingdom and in hell
@@MichaelK.-xl2qk 1. What books, documentaries, or other sources have led you to your current conclusion? 2. Are there other books for other races discussing their dragons? 3. Are these watchers present in the conscious/subconscious of their people? 4. What of mixed raced people? Those are just some questions that I thought of. I think you are introducing me to worldviews that I haven't heard yet so I just want to know more about them. Thanks!
@@Sterkop3 The Book of Enoch and the commentaries on it have a lot to say about the Watchers. The Zohar decribes the 70 Angels of the Nations, and the Book of Daniel portrays the archangel Michael, the guardian of the nation of Israel (the 71st nation btw) fighting against the angel of Persia, which leads to the conclusion that these national angels are indeed of the fallen variety. And this is consistent with the theological tenet that Satan is the lord of the world. I draw the conclusion speculatively that spiritual dragons are fallen seraphim, because the world seraphim means snake or shining one, even though it is also applied to angels. Mostly the sources are Jewish lore, which should be taken with caution. As far as mixed races of people, one might imagine that their different bloodlines create inner conflict, as the fallen racial consciousness of Man is draconic in character. One will usually win out, making that the identity. It might even compel a type of multiple personality to occur in sick people, and where the mix comes from a conflict. Note that the shatteredness of Man's fallen personality and inner racial conflict are never resolved. Only through Christ is Man set free. On the diabolical side is the pagan obsession with the purity of the blood, which is a false way of resolving the issue created by mixed race. And yes, demonic influences are always present in the life of Man. They manifest themselves as intrusive and demanding thoughts, obsessions and demands regarding the fallen flesh and blood. Possession is the ordinary state of Man, as are ancestral curses.
The ambiguity of good vs bad dragons made me think of lions (e.g. the Lion of Judah vs. the one who prowls like a lion seeking who to devour), I wonder what other similarities and differences there are with myths and traditions involving lions, in comparison to those of dragons spoken of here.
In Chosun(previous kingdom before Korean Republic) dynasty, when you see a face of a king you say " I see a face of dragon" the custom which comes from China. And as a korean myself, everytime I see the imperial symbol of dragon of Chosun, I cannot help thinking but Satan since kings of Chosun suppressed catholic which led to a huge martyrdom of ten thousand faithful in 19th c.
One of my favorite subjects are Dragons. Have you noticed that a description of a 'Dragon' that Yahweh fought , but the description is almost identical to the Description of Yahweh when he is housed in the tabernacle?? I'm from the UK and Dragons are part of the folk lore across Britain... but when you get properly into the original folk lore, they say the dragons weren't physical beings but they revealed themselves to those who connected with the spiritual realm, and so could be described... some of the ancient texts say that when they spoke to them for help or knowledge, they would find out about other dragons from different lands which are destructive, all dragons are purely elemental, and each element had a polar divide, so a good fire dragon may be in Britain.. but in Iceland and Denmark, they had the destructive water dragon. In Germany Earth dragons were the main kind and lived in the Germanic castles in the mountains...Asia had both polarities of the Air dragon. The medieval documents we have in britain are incredible and people talk about this stuff like it's perfectly normal, there are many accounts between 900-1200 which say on the similar lines that the spiritual realm is getting more and more distant, to what their ancestors knew and taught about, and when the sensory connection between the physical sacred land and the spiritual realm is severed, then Dragons will no longer be seen by humans, except through ritualistic means, with closed eye visions, when before they spoke. Humans will need to reconnect that severed bond when the time comes and spirit is felt and known by people once again (one letter in the archives says 800-1000 years, going by the family oral history), with persistent interaction with the playful spirits of nature builds this important connection to the non physical realm, and in time a Dragon will make itself known, and to quote the 1000 year old woman, "He will introduce Himself, and teach you the highest mix of agriculture & Magick, and once you bond, then you can speak anytime because the Dragon gives you a piece of it's heart!! Magickal!!
I thought we don’t have any dragon legends in South Africa but after a quick search I found the Grootslang (the Big snake) living in a deep cave in Rightersveld. Thanks for the great video!
Remember to like and share if you enjoyed this. And please suggest more great topics for Universal History episodes.
- Learn more about our course, Universal History: Beowulf on the Symbolic World website, where we presented 6 classes covering the Beowulf epic and went into much more depth about dragons: thesymbolicworld.com/news/the-beowulf-course-by-richard-rohlin-and-jonathan-pageau
- Support the God’s’Dog: Warrior Kickstarter that launched this week: www.kickstarter.com/projects/symbolicworldpress/godsdog-warrior
It would be interesting to talk about Spain, maybe their arrival to America (I'm Argentinian).
There are many relations between Saint Christopher and Cristopher Columbus: the foreigner who carried Jesus to the other side of the waters.
Thank you
SAINT GEORGE, Ιωναθαν. SAINT GEORGE!
Speaking of patterns Jonathan, I'm starting to notice one throughout these years that I've been following you:
GREEK: Asclepius and Hermes ARE AND WERE GREEK. JUST WAS AND IS SAINT GEORGE! JUST AS THE BIBLE (SEPTUAGINT, NEW TESTAMENT AND APOCALYPSE) the entirety written in the GREEK. AND the iconography Jonathan. And the use of all those colors in the CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX iconography that you practice Jonathan.
HISTORICAL FACTS:
Asclepius (/æsˈkliːpiəs/; Greek: Ἀσκληπιός Asklēpiós [asklɛːpiós]; Latin: Aesculapius) is a hero and god of medicine in ancient Greek religion and mythology. He is the son of Apollo and Coronis, or Arsinoe, or of Apollo alone. Asclepius represents the healing aspect of the medical arts; his daughters, the "Asclepiades", are: Hygieia ("Health, Healthiness"), Iaso (from ἴασις "healing, recovering, recuperation", the goddess of recuperation from illness), Aceso (from ἄκεσις "healing", the goddess of the healing process), Aegle (the goddess of good health) and Panacea (the goddess of universal remedy). He has several sons as well. He was. LATER associated with the Roman/Etruscan god Vediovis and the Egyptian Imhotep.He shared with Apollo the epithet Paean ("the Healer").] The rod of Asclepius, a snake-entwined staff, (similar to the caduceus) remains a symbol of medicine today. Those physicians and attendants who served this god were known as the Therapeutae of Asclepius.
GRECO-BUDHISM. Hello?!
GREEK: Asclepius (/æsˈkliːpiəs/; Greek: Ἀσκληπιός Asklēpiós [asklɛːpiós]; Latin: Aesculapius) is a hero and god of medicine in ancient Greek religion and mythology. He is the son of Apollo and Coronis, or Arsinoe, or of Apollo alone. Asclepius represents the healing aspect of the medical arts; his daughters, the "Asclepiades", are: Hygieia ("Health, Healthiness"), Iaso (from ἴασις "healing, recovering, recuperation", the goddess of recuperation from illness), Aceso (from ἄκεσις "healing", the goddess of the healing process), Aegle (the goddess of good health) and Panacea (the goddess of universal remedy). He has several sons as well. He was LATER associated with the Roman/Etruscan god Vediovis and the Egyptian Imhotep.[1] He shared with Apollo the epithet Paean ("the Healer").[2] The rod of Asclepius, a snake-entwined staff, (similar to the caduceus) remains a symbol of medicine today. Those physicians and attendants who served this god were known as the Therapeutae of Asclepius.
Sorry, gentlemen, but I'm going to have to be the first to request another video on the symbolism of the dragon!
What is the sinificance of the dragon protecting water, yet breathing fire?
What is the significance of the dragon protecting water, as in the primordial waters in Gensis on which Christ walks?
What is the significance of the dragon protecting water, but not inhabiting the water, or having any aquqatic features, but instead having the ability to fly?
What is the relationship between the dragon and the mountain? Here in Wales, these are particularly interlinked.
What is the significance of the dragon often being able to talk? And how does that differ from other beasts in its ability to formulate reason in speech?
What is the significance of dragons, not just being killed by men, but being ridden?
How do dragons manifest themselves in the world? As inteligences, as principalities, as demons? Even as Longaevi?
I'm overflowing with questions!
I know much of this was touched upon, but with the focus on the universal history of dragons, I got the feeling there was a lot more to discuss symbolically
Thanks for your hard work; absolutely loving the content!
Dragons are associated with water and mountains; many have been thought to live in the ocean, Leviathan being just one. Maybe they like mountains because that's where many natural resources are i.e precious stones and metals, and there are caves to live in.
The reason they would be able to communicate differently than animals is because they're angels (fallen or not). Or maybe the other A word. Not from here.
The only lore I've been able to find so far about riding dragons is the Solomonari. Wizards who ride dragons and control the weather. The lore associates them as evil because they were taught magic in a school in Transylvania by the devil. But their name suggests roots in Solomonic teachings. All secret societies stem from Kabbalah teachings which includes secret teachings of Solomon. I think there is an apocryphal book that talks about a ring Solomon has that he controlled demons with to build the temple. I'm very convinced the Vatican has suppressed a lot of "magical" things associated with scriptures and hidden some things in plain site. I think, and it sounds as if they agree, that seraphims are literal dragons, some of which were fallen angels who bred with human women. I believe they established secret societies and usurped the earthly throne of kings.
Can’t click fast enough on a Richard vid
Studying folklore in Japan (specifically one story of the 8 headed dragon in the Kojiki) really was huge in my developing into an Orthodox Christian. Peterson Pageau pipeline and living in the Far East helped me to face east.
ua-cam.com/video/IrwrOguqyj8/v-deo.htmlsi=CqYuY49fMl19mdxv
Can you elaborate please?
My comment was erased
Gött o se en Göteborgare här :) . Vi har en rätt så stor församling här i Götet om du vill besöka nån gång förresten (du kanske redan besöker? Hallvard här :P)
@@vesper9198 ^glömde snabela:et
Stangely enough, I see the idea of Dragons guarding water carries on into this day with Godzilla of all things.
Ok that is a cool connection I didn't see. Love it. And when as his movies unfold the two sidedness of him comes gets explored.
@@pastverb1 And now that I think about it, while it may be accidental, I do see similarities between him and leviathan. I wonder if the reason that movie monster has continued on is because it is drawing on some old universal patterns.
And protecting the edge of the world-the extreme east.
Yes, Godzilla only awakens when nuclear radiation disturbs (that is, poisons) the ocean. And he targets the technological society that produced the nuclear radiation. So, Godzilla is a defender of Feminine Nature against the Masculine thunder god of technology. In fact, a nuclear strike is much akin to a thunder bolt striking the earth.
Yup, Godzilla is definitely a dragon
Among the Slavs there is actually a word difference between a good & evil serpent/dragon. In Poland 'żmij' was used for a positive serpent while 'smok' was used for a negative serpent. Nowadays the word smok is much more popular is generally used as the Polish equivalent of 'dragon'. Żmijs were associated with weather, water bodies & crops and were set to be fighting the bad smoks in the sky. The European adder snake that lives also in Poland is called 'żmija' here, which is the feminine of 'żmij'.
The most famous dragon story in Poland is the story of Smok Wawelski (the Wawel Dragon) who is said to live under the Royal Hill in Cracow and terrorized the local people. It is said it was slained by the founder of the city king Krak (Grakh). It was tricked into eating a cattle skin filled with sulflur and died from it or from overdrkinking from the Vistula river to quench the fire in the stomach from the sulflur. There are also different versions where it is his sons that kill the dragon, or a Cracovian shoemaker called Skuba or Dratewka.
The Polish region of Masovia (where the current capital of Warsaw is located) had traditionally a dragon, next to an eagle, in their coat of arms. There is actually a theory that it comes from the Wessex dragon that was brought there by Magnus, son of the last Anglo-Saxon king of England Harold, who left England & became a count in Silesia & Masovia in the 11th century. Although it may be also just an adoption of a universal dragon symbolism by the Masovians.
Fascinating thanks. I'm English and grew up in the Soviet era, eastern Europe was just a blank spot in my mind. I moved to Australia in the 1990s and feel I have a very poor grasp on the Baltic/Volga relationship - we are linked by the water between us -something modern scholars appear to understand estimate.
@@AndyJarman Thank You. Other fun fact I could add is that there is also a predator dinosaur fossils found in Poland in 2008, which were later named as 'Smok wawelski' which is now the official scientific name for the species. And when speaking about medieval connections between England & Poland, there was a Polish princess Świętosława (Sigrid), daughter of the first historical ruler of Poland Mieszko, who married Sweyn Forkbeard & was the mother of the Danish king of England, Cnut the Great.
Awesome stuff.
In Serbia we also have differences between the "good" dragons :Zmaj and the "evil" dragon 'Ala. Dragons are called Zmaj even today. Ala is derived from greek Hala, which means hail(Indo European origin of the word). Zmaj are protectors of farms while Ala the personification of bad weather destroys them. Ala has fairy tales that are quite similar to Russian tales of Baba Yaga.
Very interesting, thank you. I need to look up about Magnus. I know one of King Harold's daughters wed Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Prince of the Rus.
This is my favorite series in UA-cam. I'm learning so much about familiar stories that I've never been able to make the connections on my own.
Each episode is a treat and I never want it to end. I could listen to this for months, and I still wouldn't possess the knowledge that these two men have in their heads.
Mr. Rohlin’s vids are the best on your channel.
Blessed feast of the Presentation
Man that new symbolic world intro text and symbol is really well done. The little sound gave me chills. Love that the graphics are moving forward!
The Bible Project does a great podcast series on the Dragon throughout the whole Bible!
Was just going to post the same thing. I would love for Tim Mackie to speak with Pageau and Rohlin about Dragons and quite honestly a 100 other things:)
ua-cam.com/video/IrwrOguqyj8/v-deo.htmlsi=CqYuY49fMl19mdxv
@@RobbRheinlander I completely agree with you! I absolutely loved the dragon series Tim and John did! Tim is amazing and I love the questions John asks and how he will ask it over and over until he gets an answer he understands! It’s really interesting listening to what these guys have to say and what Tim and John have to say! I’ve learned so much from both of them!
@@justicebjorke2790 How do you know they "know orthodoxy is the true church"?
Dante's Bizarre Adventure would be a great video topic, YES YES YES
Is this a Jojo reference?
I'm glad someone said it hahaha@@accuset
I grew up Catholic and inexplicably I went through a phase in 2nd-4th grade where I become enamored with drawing a Griffon. I never really recall seeing an image of one but have vague memories of Alexander the Great imagery in a school lesson, general Catholic religious education etc…but I could draw it, no problem. It was definitely a hybrid creature in my mind and somehow akin to the Seraphim, I was fascinated by it.
On my first communion banner I made a felt Griffon to adorn the side of my pew. Somehow this made perfect sense to me as a child. There’s no way I could have explained why this was universal and makes perfect symbolic sense, yet somehow I knew it intuitively.
Fascinating discussion.
Have you read the short story about the Griffen and the Minor Canon?
Amazing how these deep things play out in our imagination if their given space. Has the griffon started in your imagination over the years?
I'm grateful to be shown the value in this "mode of cognition" in time to hopefully help my children respect and cultivate it as they grow.
@@chrishoward8473 I haven’t. I will though, thank you.
@@pastverb1 it has. I have type 1 diabetes going on 30 years now. I have always been in good control but until I truly confronted how I would have to live with it my adult life, I developed what I would call a shadow or dragon on my back. I started going into this dark wood and confronting it and with the help of Christ about 7-8 years ago.
When I would have breakthroughs on this journey pointing to what I must cut off or add to my being in order to not let the disease have control of me, it would inevitably involve a sort of dragon like or griffin like hybrid video game style boss that I had to contend with and confront or slay in crazy dream.
@@jakevannoy1630 That is a lot to process / accept. That's a blessing to have Christ to walk through that with you.
Dragons created this world, and every culture that interacts with the other side eventually gets this info.
It's pretty amazing for me going through Jonathan's videos and seeing how much he gets right abought dragons, just stories and knowledge of symbolism.
As an atheist in 2022, I accidentally entered the spirit world for the first time, met the dragon god Tiamat, and learned that I'm a dragon myself. From first hand experience and knowledge, I now know that dragons are everywhere and are doing a lot in the world today.
Wow! So cool that people are waking up to this from all walks of life ❤❤❤❤
The episode we've all been waiting for...
🐉
Love your interview with Mattheu!
@@warmcoffee226 thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Great timing I was just searching for new JP videos and these are some of the best
I haven't seen any of the class on Dante's Divine Comedy, but after taking a (phenomenal) class on it in college, I highly recommend learning more about the story. Underrated in a way.
For those wondering about what he said about ferrets and weasels, look up "Weasel War Dance".
I find mention of this amusing also because of ferret's hording proclivities.
I called my ferrets "little dragons" for how they obsessively amass piles of things pilfered from around the house and then spend their time sleeping/protecting the them.
My albino would get REALLY offended if we liberated her stash of stolen toothbrushes, combs, and anything else rubbery and wouldn't rest until she'd reclaimed enough of it to appease her nesting instinct.
Ferrets and weasels are also notorious little tricksters and the former love to tease and provoke both humans and other pets.
I feel like a kid watching this. So fun and exciting. Thank you guys 🙏🏻
Yay, what a treat!
If you guys could make things like the Beowulf course with some kind of kid friendly material for homeschool families I could totally justify the expense as part of my curriculum budget! It’s tricky to go through all your material and try to pull out the things that I can use for my 4 elementary-age boys, but worth the effort. Y’all are incredible and I’ve learned a TON from you, so thank you!
Brothers and sisters in Christ. The “Household” as a living unit encompassing more than immediate family and blood needs to be talked about more.
*Homelessness is a subtle form of genocide.*
What do you think?
Have you taken in, or personally funded the meals of homeless people in your community?
In my city, all of the free food programs except one are run out of or by churches, including mine. They use the tithes given by members to fund these operations. My old church prior to moving operated a shelter for abused women and children as well. This is quite common among evangelical churches. Churches used to be the main benefactor if orphans before the state decided to stop that practice.
@@privatecitizen4001 What church did Christ donate to that fed the homeless?
Jesus Christ was homeless my friend, and he fed them by the thousands. These miracles are written in the new testament.
@@privatecitizen4001In addition to that, it is quite obvious to say that Jesus paid the tithe, as commanded by the Law, of which goes to the Priests, Levites, and . . . The Poor!
Seeing this video in my notifications made me so happy!
So true.
AAAGH!!! This conversation just blew open a story stuck in my head for two years now but would never quite come together. THANK YOU!
There were pieces of the system of symbols I had in the story not even realizing they were such (the uncle / nephew being the slayers, and even a dramatic confrontation between the dragon and the storm) yet other elements I was missing or had inverted.
Thank you for this!
JBP described dragons as an amalgam of primate/hominid ur-fears: fire, serpent, large cat and perhaps large hunting bird. So that all fits with the idea of mixture/hybridity… whether it’s cause or effect is neither here nor there.
Amazing video. Interesting connections.
Wow! ❤ I’m glad to finally be tuning into one of these Universal History conversations while it’s happening! ♾😎🖖🏻🙏🏻♾ Lol- the Sharknado movies 😂
Just finished the BibleProject's podcast series on the Chaos Dragon and been wanting more! This discussion makes an excellent followup to that series.
Growing up on the west coast around indigenous culture, I’ve known about the Thunderbird mythology for pretty much my whole life and this is the first time I’ve made the connection that the THUNDERbird is a dragon!! It was a kind of epiphany but it’s so obviously a dragon myth. The thing has horns and teeth!!
Well, that was one of the most fascinating hours I've ever spent listening on UA-cam. Thank you.
Brilliant as always gentlemen. Thank you and God bless.
Darn, this might just be your best episode, god bless! ✝️
This is an awesome discussion,
Thank You for great video about the dragons! Always an interesting topic. 🐉 ♥
Symbolism and metaphor spark our imaginations, and we can fit these symbols like jigsaw puzzles into our beliefs and assumptions. Empirical evidence, though, is far more frightening and not so conducive to our narrative. We are heros and damsels in our fantasies; yet true reality--- well, maybe these don't fit so snuggly.
You do love us!
THE ONE I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!
Ill sign up for Dante. Looking forward to it.
If i sign up for the beowulf class via the website do i get access to the recordings?
1:13:15 what was he referring to here?
So looking forward to the Dante course!
Would love to hear a discussion about Mother Mary's role in defeating the dragon/crushing the head of the serpent with her feet.
At 19:00 going off the snake theory. Then snakes would have a certain power, a monkey will stare at it for hours taking away some of it's freedom. They can kill with one bite and easily down people even. Just from that snakes in some sense represent power in something, or someone.
At 25:00 the garden with the four rivers reminds me of a similar distant myth that was popular in older Buddhism. Lake Anavatapta, which also had a dragon who was free from the worries other dragons had by becoming wise. The lake could only be found by a bodhisattva (person who's becoming enlightened) and it would help metaphorically "wash away their sins". Usually done by a wise guardian spirit of some sorts on the other side of the lake and the bodhisattva having to cross it to get to him. Lastly, four mythical rivers are sometimes identified with the Ganges (east), the Indus (south), the Amu Darya (west), and the Tarim (north) flowed from this lake.
You two are BOTH brilliant and achingly engaging!
"Sharknado" was a great movie! The following continuations were even better! 🤣
I'm pretty sure this is the first universal history episode that I've watched, and it was epic. Just epic. 😅 The one thing that it would have been nice to hear more about is dragons' connection to the air, and a "composite" like was mentioned at the beginning and how it relates to hybridity.
I was reading that part of the Persian Dragon tradition is the idea that when snakes become massive (like over 30 m), they're thrown into the sea where they keep growing larger, grow wings, and become sea monsters. And then the waves of the ocean are attributed to the flapping of their wings.
Loved this video! On point with everything said. I belong to an ancient Chinese ethnic group and our mythology has a dragon dog who slays a king and wins the princess.
Wow. This video shocked me. I had a dream a few years ago where I encountered a dragon and it's consort? Anyway it told me it's name which I didn't remember, but it also told me it's title. "I am the eternal guardian of the divine realm". This helped me a lot with understanding that.
Well, are you ready for seeing them petrified? ua-cam.com/video/IrwrOguqyj8/v-deo.htmlsi=CqYuY49fMl19mdxv btw don’t believe that he is a guardian.
Great conversation. The only thing that would make it better is if Richard's audio was a bit little louder. Thanks!
Rholin rollin with the new Mic
Nice
Will there be a recorded version of the Beowulf course available for purchase at a later date?
Thanks
I had a weird "dragon" dream when I was about 12/13 years old. This was right about the time I was being confirmed and my confirmation saint that I chose (and still is) is st raphael. Anyways, during this period I had a number of strange dreams. The dragon one being where I was in world that was consumed by fire. The sky was purple, orange and red from the fires coming from the ground...and I was falling down (or running towards) a huge lake that's waters looked incredibly dark. In the middle of the lake was a dragon, and instead of feeling scared, I knew in my heart that this dragon was my friend. Like, when people describe their "ayuhuasca" experiences of feeling pure light and love, was similar to how I felt when I approached the dragon. I also had another dream where I was in my childhood home, and in the back door there were a bunch of black, angry dogs. I remember my sister opening the back door and these dogs jumped on us. I felt the dogs clamping down on my arms and my legs. I wasn't scared in this dream, but rather, determined to escape. I'm 26 now and these dreams have always stayed with me
I'd be fascinated to hear what you guys would make of the Jay Williams / Mercer Mayer story, _Everyone Knows What a Dragon Looks Like._
This was one of the most fascinating discussions I have heard in a long time. I truly appreciated the engagement and the veering off topic. I find that when the most passionate teachers do this the students often receive more than they ever expected. I appreciate you both Jonathan and Richard.
@Jonathan I believe you mentioned Christ becoming the snake but didn't get too in-depth on that concept can you divulge further? Is there a video you have taught on this?
@Richard I believe that you mention that God describes himself as a dragon. I found that intriguing when I heard this live yesterday. This morning I randomly open my Bible to Isaiah 26-28, and the first thing I read in 27:1-5, it seems that God is not only the Dragon Slayer but the true and righteous dragon. I don't believe that's the point of the passage (to determine God to be a dragon), but I find the symbology very fascinating, given the descriptions of dragons being protectors of certain things, especially water and gardens. Isaiah 27 seems to have subtle language of God as a dragon.
I would like to see both your thoughts on this.
Isaiah 27:1-5; 8 (ESV):
1 In that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.
2 In that day,
“A pleasant vineyard, sing of it!
3 I, the Lord, am its keeper;
every moment I water it.
Lest anyone punish it,
I keep it night and day;
4 I have no wrath.
Would that I had thorns and briers to battle!
I would march against them,
I would burn them up together.
5 Or let them lay hold of my protection,
let them make peace with me,
let them make peace with me.
8 Measure by measure, by exile you contended with them;
he removed them with his fierce breath in the day of the east wind.
Thank you again for the content and discussion. God bless you.
So excited for this!
How bout making us a symbolic world beastiary? We need that
hell yeah, dude!
Does Jonathan expand on this idea of the serpent being in two places in once (11:17) anywhere else?
I never thought of Jesus’ admonition to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves being symbolized by a winged dragon.
Also, any thoughts on the strange thing that in February we literally ‘eat hearts’ for Valentine’s Day?!!!
Oh! That’s a good point about Valentine’s Day!
Could you do a commentary on the symbology in the vision of St Perpetua?
I LOVE Sharknado! Especially with the Rifftrax.
In the Brazilian folklore we also have a dragon, though it is a good one:
Boitatá, a gigantic serpent that breathes fire (or have eyes of fire or its body is on fire [sometimes it's all of them at the same time]), lives on the waters and protects the forests (especially against hunters and human fires). "Boitatá" is the junction of the tupi words "mba'e" (thing) and "tatá" (fire), thus meaning "thing of fire". The Boitatá is also conected with the will-o'-wisp, being that if you are seeing them you are seeing Boitatá's eyes. Normally depicted as masculine, sometimes the Boitatá is also depicted as a feminine being [though this one is generally more recent]. One of the first registers of Boitatá was by Father José de Anchieta in 1560 (Brazil was found in 1500).
Besides Boitatá, we have another, much less known, evil dragon:
Boiuna, a giant snake from the North Region (especially the Amazonian Region). "Boiuna" comes from the tupi "mbóiuna", that is the junction of the words "mbói" (snake) and "una" (black), thus meaning "black snake". Boiuna is also called big-snake, mother-of-the-river or lady-of-the-waters. So while Boitatá is generally depicted as a male serpent, Boiuna is a female one. It is said that Boiuna lives among the rocks of rivers and lakes, from where it comes to sink boats. When it comes out, it thunders, throws lightning and makes rain; though if the rain is too heavy and threatens a flood, Boiuna turns into a rainbow and calms the waters. It is also said that the Moon is its head, the stars its eyes and the rainbow its blood. Boiuna can also imitate the shapes of boats, attracting castaways to the bottom of the river, or take the form of a woman.
Does anyone know what Jonathan and Richard are talking about at 1:13:23?
Thank you for helping me understand StarCraft better: hydralisks are dragons, but they're weak to psionic storm
So when Turin dispatches Glaurung from below, Tolkien is recapitulating the western tradition of dragon slaying.
Love that context, thanks guys!
Re: Tridents as Lightning Bolt!!! Now I can’t help but picture the Zeus-Poseidon-Hades trio as a three-headed dragon.
In Finnish language a dragon is "lohikäärme", in which lohi=salmon and käärme=snake, so it's salmon-snake.
It's very interesting to learn that the snake is associated with salmon in Finland to dragons considering that salmon return to their spawning place to reproduce.
But, it may also refer to the colour of salmon as well as, or instead of.
I love this discussion. Fascinating. I’ve always thought dragons were so cool since I was a little boy. I’d would pretend to ride them with my friends as we played with wooden sticks and swords in our awesome fantasy backyard worlds.
I'm curious if Jonathan and Richard would consider Capital a dragon. I remain entirely convinced that it is. Definitely would love a part two.
"Christmas shopping at Lindesfarm" is exactly the kind of awful joke I would also make and I love it! 😂
Just watched Prince of Egypt again the other day with my son, this talk of dragons and serpents made me think of the staff turning into a serpent in Exodus and Gods serpent devoured the pharaohs sorcerers serpents . Pretty cool
Wasn’t available for the live performance. How do I record it on my VCR?
What's a VCR?
@@gwan_git
*Viking*
*Communication*
*Rock*
I recently had a transformative experience: I wrote a letter to a girl with whom I had been friends for 5 years and had fallen in love with her and told her that in all honesty I could muster, and got her answer back, which was in a sense a rejection, but because it was written with so much love and pure, brutal honesty, I actually felt incredibly empowered by it, like a was suddenly freed from things I didn't even know had been chaining me.
My imagination processed that by coming up with the image of myelf as a DRAGON-RIDER, and I the way I interpret that is that if I truly have my full act together (which means, I harmonize and integrate my inner archetypal Warrior, Magician, Lover, and King, and serve truth & love) I can actually use the most powerful, emotionally challenging experiences as a chance to grow (like the Dragon taking me upwards to the next level).
So I'm curious what you think about the symbol of the Dragonrider (and I pray they don't mess up the new Eragon movies).
Where can I get that Dragon symbol plate behind Jonathan? It’s awesome
Sir Michael Tippet’s ‘The Mask of Time’ features the serpent as the guardian of paradise, in the 5th scene at end of part one called ‘Dream of the Paradise Garden’.
Richard, also a Sharknado fan?! 😂🤣😂🤣 That‘s such a relief! I can’t wait for you to get into other shark hybrid B movies! 😂
Nachustan was the Serpent Moses put on the staff.
I'm not sure if you mentioned it, but in Shinto rivers ARE dragons. It obviously fits the same schema.
First of all, congratulations on this amazing talk, just as always incredibly illuminating, I am very thankful for this. Second thing, are you aware of the work by Galahad Eridanus? You talking about snakes, mostly the figure of the two snakes facing eachother down the Cross is very reminiscent of his Abraxian Cosmogram and his way of representing the struggle of Ahriman and Lucifer. His way of positioning and understanding the symbol of the Ouroboros as the two snakes at once and naming it the Artifex is just exactly what you're talking about here. In time, I'll try to be more clear and I'll try to write about this here more eloquently, but I can't help but recognise a very deep resonance on this.
My favoeite modern dragon is Godzilla. His last two Japanese films- 2016's Shin Godzilla and last year's Godzilla Minus One- are both excellent and display a lot of the characteristics that you two discussed here. Feels worthy if a video, especially for Shin Godzilla.
@davidking2215 it's a very different film but also excellent. Just make sure you watch with subtitles. The English dub is terrible. Also try not to see anything else but the main trailer. It's the first one that pops up and UA-cam.
46:30 I go to a Presbyterian church lol that's not gonna happen there lol. Presbyterians perform and see baptism more as a Christening or blessing which reflects in its form, being a sprinkling of water from above. I don't necessarily agree with calling at baptism but its still a valuable ritual.
I suppose its not completely disassociated wit dragons bc it still involves water, but its more of a post slaying of the dragon that produces living useful water rather than chaotic salt water that kills you.
Thinking of the sereph's role as a gaurd at the edge of the garden reminds me of Prometheus reaching up for fire when the the serpent is encountered in the middle of paradise by Eve.
Speaking of dragons, I would love to get an explanation of The Symbolic World's new logo. I'm a bit confused as to why there's no apparent symbol of order. Also wondering what the three birds stand for.
Has anyone been struck by the different recent dragon stories wherein people ride/train/tame dragons as being a kind of reflection of current hubris of people controlling the forces of nature to suit human aims? This theme seems very recent. Maybe 50 years or so. Something to ponder
Wizards have been riding dragons in lore for much longer than 50 years.
Guys paid to study Dragons. Child hood dream ❤
How do we sign up for the Dante’s Inferno class?
Book of Job has one description of a fire Breathing Dragon as one of God's creatures.
Only halfway in, but I really hope Glaurung and the Wyrms get a shout out!
maybe northern european cultures had less dependence on water scarcity? Not as agrarian? Maybe the guarding of precious water sources was less a thing in Celtic lands where it rained every other day. However, holy wells were important. Were holy wells a thing in drier climates?
I thought this was a very informative video. & I’m happy you guys did it.
But this video begs a very important question. A question whose answer I believe may prove pivotal in the undoing of modern simplistic materialism.
That question is:
“How do disparate cultures all come up with the same myths symbols (especially if those cultures have no communication)
If the universe is meaningless or unintelligible it would be impossible to create true myth, narrative or symbol. If knowledge or meaning structures were not preexistent (exist before man discovered them) it would be impossible for all cultures to describe the same thing.
Perhaps you two can tackle this idea. I think it has enormous power. It also resolves the atheist attacks you discussed in the video that Christianity is a mere retelling of other narratives.
Also a side note. One of my favorite proofs for Christianity is it answers every universal pagan myths with an inversion. And thought it seems impossible to comprehend the inversion contains true practical utility (loving enemies etc)
One theory is that these myths spread with human migration. Another is that they all experienced similar things, the latter being more plausible in my mind. The Noah story is seen globally. Giants are in the lore globally, as are dragons.
Kulkulkan/Quetzalcoatl are basically dragon gods of the Mayans and Aztecs. Their lore from their ancestors said those gods built their pyramids and taught them their culture. The Book of Enoch describes good and bad watchers who were seraphim (fiery flying serpents). They were the watchers of humanity. If the fallen angels taught forbidden things, it insinuates they were keepers of knowledge so it's entirely plausible they taught humans and gave them laws to live by before they fell, and perhaps the good watchers continued to do this after the flood as the lore of the Mayan states they were brought to mesoamerica after a catastrophic flood but this insinuates that Noah and his family weren't the only survivors.
I have been curious for over a decade now, the symbolism of the ancestor soul in the Maori culture in New Zealand and how close they come to the image of the dragon, because like you said hard to define, but you know when you see one. We lived there for 10 years, now in the USA, and I think someone from in the Maori culture might say I’m wrong to consider it a symbol because it’s an image of their ancestors. There’s no disrespect or coldness intended. I think I will search myself and the various cultures for meaning and understanding for a long time before I’m satisfied with an understanding of the imagery that was chosen there, however, the sense of guardianship by these images it’s very clear now after listening to this conversation. You don’t get the feeling that these images were chosen by humans when you’re living inside that culture, but rather the images chose to manifest themselves there.
Wow!
I find it interesting that dragons seem to break a boundary in their existence and create a boundary in their role.
Smaug has become the ur-dragon for me. Serpent-like, red, winged, spewing fire and hoarding goal and treasure. He's intelligent but proud. He's eventually killed by being struck from below by an arrow.
"In the West, dragons hoard gold and not water"
Even there, you have a sort of a bridging-tale -- Fafnir takes the Rhine=gold away from the Rhine-maidens, the Rhine of course being a river.
Since you asked, I'll share my ideas about what dragons might be. First, let's distinguish between natural dragons (dinosaurs) and spirit dragons (fallen seraphim). The natural dragons may have in some instances become receptacles for the demons in a way similar to the Gardarene swine, and in these cases the two overlap. It also seems possible to imagine that the fall of Lucifer was "before the foundation of the world," and hence the dinosaurs may have been created as receptacles for their souls from the outset, but that is pure speculation. When we look at the Welsh story of the red dragon and white dragon fighting with one another, taken from the "Vita Merlini," or Life of Merlin by Geoffery of Monmouth, c. 12th century, we see an interesting pattern revealed; each dragon here represents a race. There is a red one for the Welsh and a white one for the Saxons. This has led me to speculate about an association between dragons and the supposed seventy "cosmokrators," the Watchers who preside over each of the seventy races of mankind established after the Flood and subsequent confusion of the languages at Babel. These fallen angels each have as their principality, a created race of mankind. And if they are also spirit dragons, then they are each the dragon of a particual race, like we see in the 'Vita.' That would accord with the dual function of protection and hoarding, making them the spirit which jealously guards the racial lands, giving strength in battle to warriors who fight to police their boundaries. They both protect their sovereign lands and hoard the souls of the damned which thereby belong to them in Lucifer's kingdom and in hell
I'd be interested to hear you elaborate more on this. Really interesting thoughts.
@@Sterkop3 In the interests of time, could you put that as a question?
@@MichaelK.-xl2qk 1. What books, documentaries, or other sources have led you to your current conclusion?
2. Are there other books for other races discussing their dragons?
3. Are these watchers present in the conscious/subconscious of their people?
4. What of mixed raced people?
Those are just some questions that I thought of. I think you are introducing me to worldviews that I haven't heard yet so I just want to know more about them.
Thanks!
@@Sterkop3 The Book of Enoch and the commentaries on it have a lot to say about the Watchers. The Zohar decribes the 70 Angels of the Nations, and the Book of Daniel portrays the archangel Michael, the guardian of the nation of Israel (the 71st nation btw) fighting against the angel of Persia, which leads to the conclusion that these national angels are indeed of the fallen variety. And this is consistent with the theological tenet that Satan is the lord of the world. I draw the conclusion speculatively that spiritual dragons are fallen seraphim, because the world seraphim means snake or shining one, even though it is also applied to angels. Mostly the sources are Jewish lore, which should be taken with caution. As far as mixed races of people, one might imagine that their different bloodlines create inner conflict, as the fallen racial consciousness of Man is draconic in character. One will usually win out, making that the identity. It might even compel a type of multiple personality to occur in sick people, and where the mix comes from a conflict. Note that the shatteredness of Man's fallen personality and inner racial conflict are never resolved. Only through Christ is Man set free. On the diabolical side is the pagan obsession with the purity of the blood, which is a false way of resolving the issue created by mixed race. And yes, demonic influences are always present in the life of Man. They manifest themselves as intrusive and demanding thoughts, obsessions and demands regarding the fallen flesh and blood. Possession is the ordinary state of Man, as are ancestral curses.
@@MichaelK.-xl2qk very interesting. Thank you for explaining!
1:04:33
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
The ambiguity of good vs bad dragons made me think of lions (e.g. the Lion of Judah vs. the one who prowls like a lion seeking who to devour), I wonder what other similarities and differences there are with myths and traditions involving lions, in comparison to those of dragons spoken of here.
55:11 Chiron/Kyron the Centaur
In Chosun(previous kingdom before Korean Republic) dynasty, when you see a face of a king you say " I see a face of dragon" the custom which comes from China. And as a korean myself, everytime I see the imperial symbol of dragon of Chosun, I cannot help thinking but Satan since kings of Chosun suppressed catholic which led to a huge martyrdom of ten thousand faithful in 19th c.
One of my favorite subjects are Dragons. Have you noticed that a description of a 'Dragon' that Yahweh fought , but the description is almost identical to the Description of Yahweh when he is housed in the tabernacle?? I'm from the UK and Dragons are part of the folk lore across Britain... but when you get properly into the original folk lore, they say the dragons weren't physical beings but they revealed themselves to those who connected with the spiritual realm, and so could be described... some of the ancient texts say that when they spoke to them for help or knowledge, they would find out about other dragons from different lands which are destructive, all dragons are purely elemental, and each element had a polar divide, so a good fire dragon may be in Britain.. but in Iceland and Denmark, they had the destructive water dragon. In Germany Earth dragons were the main kind and lived in the Germanic castles in the mountains...Asia had both polarities of the Air dragon.
The medieval documents we have in britain are incredible and people talk about this stuff like it's perfectly normal, there are many accounts between 900-1200 which say on the similar lines that the spiritual realm is getting more and more distant, to what their ancestors knew and taught about, and when the sensory connection between the physical sacred land and the spiritual realm is severed, then Dragons will no longer be seen by humans, except through ritualistic means, with closed eye visions, when before they spoke.
Humans will need to reconnect that severed bond when the time comes and spirit is felt and known by people once again (one letter in the archives says 800-1000 years, going by the family oral history), with persistent interaction with the playful spirits of nature builds this important connection to the non physical realm, and in time a Dragon will make itself known, and to quote the 1000 year old woman, "He will introduce Himself, and teach you the highest mix of agriculture & Magick, and once you bond, then you can speak anytime because the Dragon gives you a piece of it's heart!!
Magickal!!
I thought we don’t have any dragon legends in South Africa but after a quick search I found the Grootslang (the Big snake) living in a deep cave in Rightersveld.
Thanks for the great video!
1:15:14 what was Richard alluding to? Aliens?
Le Demon