Greeting! I would like to refer you to one of the most beautiful Orthodox works in my opinion, namely the book "Prayers by the Lake" by Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic. I hope that the translator managed to express the Orthodox symbols expressed in the Serbian language in which the book was originally written. It is my great desire to present to the Western world Bishop Nikolai as one of the greatest clergymen of my people and of general Christianity. Since the channel itself is related to symbolism, I think that the works of Bishop Nikolaj are a great addition to the Symbol of Life, and also to this channel. I wish you the Love of God and the Blessing of God in the hope that you will not ignore my proposal. Peace to all!
in my humble opinion the most beautiful music for the introduction was from the early clips :). i miss that sound! but these are less important things. I would like to thank Jonathan for his dedicated work and wish you much of God's wisdom and God's Blessing in the future. Thank you for sharing knowledge and effort. May God keep your heart and eyes clean so that you do not sin, but teach in the light those who ask you to do so!
I have read a wonderful explanation for the folded "napkin" that was placed over Christ's face in the tomb. It comes from Jewish table manners 1st century AD. If the person eating had finished, he would throw away the napkin scrunched up as a signal to the servers to clear his plate. If however he intended to return to the meal, he folded it. Anyone from this culture would have instantly understood Christ's message "I'm not done here, I'll be back. "
My lifelong protestant father, who became a pastor a few years back, mentioned this in his Easter sermon. I had never heard it before and am always impressed at the depth of layers of Christ's symbolism in Jewish culture & law.
In keeping with the marriage theme of this video, the newly baptized/chrismated are processed in a circle. If I understand correctly, only at this sacrament and at weddings and ordination does this circle procession occur. This is very timely for me, because this Holy Saturday is my day to process in a circle and it all started with my first Pageau video a little over a year ago.
I used to love your videos, Bob! 4 years ago I, my husband and our sons were Chrismated. It has been the greatest blessing of our lives. God's blessings to you!
Around 37:45 "If there is a true pattern you will find it in the story of Christ... there is no pattern that is true that will not be in His story" That is very useful in understanding the correspondences that one may find between Christianity and other religions.
To answer what you were saying around 51:20 with regards to veiling in the Catholic Church, we continue to veil statuary and icons, especially the crucifix behind the altar. We do it at the novus ordo parish we usually go to.
Also yeah we still do adoration of the cross on Good Friday where the priest says exactly what you described and the cross is unveiled after which we kiss it. I'll stop posting as I'm watching now lol
I thank the both of you wise men deeply. I was just catechized three weeks ago into a Russian Parish and attended my first Resurrection Liturgy Saturday Night. It was an astonishing and beautiful, transformative service. It was truly beyond words. Thank you for pulling me in gentlemen.
51:40 we still unveil the cross with this exact invocation in the Roman Catholic rite. Most of the practices you describe as being in Late Mideval England are still practiced today.
Girard, jung, Weinstein etc and a lot of modern thinkers give us real insight into the world view of fallen humanity and not humanity meant for glory. Marriage over murder
26:36 there is a beautiful line in the Dao te ching where it says something like: if an inferior man encounters the Dao he will surely mock it. If he hadn't it wouldn't have been the Dao.
Hi Jonathan, Just noticed the second talk about the Quest of the Holy Grail is missing from the "Universal History" Playlist, the video named "The Search for the Holy Grail | pt.2 | with Richard Rohlin" Could you also include it later on the playlist?
The folded linen napkin left in the Christ’s tomb was interpreted as he’s coming back. Also, our Catholic Church has a night watch on Good Friday after our service at a portable altar in the rear of the church.
@50:56 for us Western Rite Orthodox, we continue the veiling of icons and the cross. Some parishes do all their icons, others may just only cover the cross and crucifixes and other symbols, especially ones on the altar.
The face cloth in which he had been buried was “folded up in a place by itself.” Could this be a symbol of how Jesus was often not recognized *by his face but by other means* in his post-Resurrection appearances?
Romam Catholic Churches still do the veiling of all the statues and the slow unveiling of the Cross on Good Friday, with that exact hymn you mentioned. We kiss the crucifix at the end, too. The veiling in our diocese actually began on Passion Sunday (Palm Sunday) and ended @ Easter Vigil. ETA: The Medieval custom about building a "tomb" for Jesus might be also the origin of the Catholic custom of carrying the Blessed Sacrament in a solemn procession to the "Place of Repose" (sometimes called "Monument"), which is a place especially built for it, similar to a Tabernacle, but portable, and located outside of the church. The Tabernacle at the church remains empty until Easter Vigil.
@Vince Perri Yeah that's a real problem how they just refer to the West, but their "West" is pretty much just North America (Americentrism much?) and so they talk like it's all protestantism, forgetting the other half of the West that is in Europe and is mostly Catholic and so, liturgical.
@Vince Perri interesting, intellectually I haven't come across any Catholics in the anglosphere that could compare to what's coming out of these Orthobros, besides Bishop Baron I guess, would you include him in that liturgical resurgence?
@@AugustasKunc Dr Brant Pitre would be a good guest to discuss (not debate) liturgy and symbolism in the Bible from the Catholic side. The Meaning of Catholic channel is interesting too
That very thing is discussed in The Lord of Spirits podcast, episode "The Gods of the Nations". It sounds to me like Richard was referencing that episode. It is a good listen!
Thank you gentlemen, I was just baptized this Palm Sunday, and this is my first Holy Week where I can fully attend every service, so this is very timely! God is with us! By the way, I wouldn't have been baptized without Johnathans work, truly he is calling many of us to the church with a clear voice. Thank you! God is with us!
I read that another aspect of the cursing of the fig tree has to do with the fruiting habits of the fig trees of that area. The text states that the fig tree had leaves, but no fruit; according to what I read, this is abnormal, as the fig tree should have begun producing fruit at the same time it started leafing. So for it to have leaves but no fruit was akin to the fig tree putting on a show but having nothing to offer, a lie of outward appearances covering up an inward lacking.
51:00 I'm a Catholic from Costa Rica and here we do veil images for lent (at least at The Metropolitan Cathedral of San José and at my parish we do) and on Holy Friday we do un-vail the Cross and we venerate it and we kiss it (it's called the Adoration of the Cross). God bless you all brothers in Christ and ¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Actually, in traditional Catholicism (pre-Vatican II) we move the Blessed Sacrament to a side altar on Holy Thursday. On Good Friday we celebrate the Adoration of the Cross (unveiling and kissing it, just as Richard described), and at Easter Vigil on Holy Saturday all icons are unveiled for the first time in Lent.
In regards to the napkin being folded. There is a story that, traditionally, when the master of the house was finished with his meal, he would crumple his napkin when he left. This would signify the end of the meal to the servants. If he left it folded, it meant he would return.
"Thy Bridal chamber I see adorned, O my Savior, And I have no wedding garment that I may enter, O Giver of light, enlighten The vesture of my soul, and save me." Have a blessed Holy Week everyone!
I am unconvinced that Girard is wrong and I think it’s really important and helpful to gain the insight the pattern he identifies offers. Girard’s scapegoat theory is not about the reasons a group comes together in the first place … its about the founding myths and sacrifice that enable a primitive group to hold together and grow beyond a certain size after the mimetic desire and conflict has threatened to tear it apart. Your guest also doesn’t explain why human sacrifice was so central and common which is where Girard started. It offers an alternative interpretation of the myths but not the necessity of violent rites that are within them. I really find your thoughts on technology and civilization so fascinating and relevant. I would like to hear you talk to someone who applies Girard rather than argues against it. The patterns he pulls out of the bible and new testament really deepened my faith and helped me so much in identifying how mimetic desire affects me and leads me to sin.
Jonathan and Richard start to tie the whole thing together by the end, though I'm not sure that Richard recognized the full implications when he said, "Self-sacrifice is the kind of sacrifice that is the basis of marriage." What I'd argue is that marriage, /in its fullest Christian context/, is the answer to the problem the scapegoat was intended to solve, while ancient marriage was often simply one more expression of the scapegoat principle. At its heart, the scapegoat principle is based in the intuition that it's possible to derive group unity from the sacrifice of a single individual. Tribal concepts of marriage still sort of did that -- one family would effectively sacrifice their daughter to another to unite the two families together, and the ceremony in which that was done would have almost certainly involved some sort of sacrifice to bring about the formation of a covenant relationship. The Roman concept of the king consummating a relationship to the city, as represented by a Vestal virgin -- a woman who was supposed to be killed if she lost her virginity -- suggests a scapegoating influence to that, too. And it would make perfect sense if the prevalence of rape in the ancient myths of city formation reflected the intuition that marriage was, in a sense, the sacrifice of a virgin. Christianity, in its ancient context, /rewrote marriage/. Christ as Bridegroom sacrifices himself to call forth a dynamic of mutual self-sacrifice, where unity is derived not from the sacrifice of the physical life of one for the group, but rather from the sacrifice of the whole self of each for the other. Marriage was reconfigured from a sacrifice where two /groups/ sacrifice one (regardless of how she felt about the matter) to produce unity into a sacrifice where two /individuals/ willingly sacrifice /themselves/ to become one. And in that sense, the pattern and counter-pattern discussed by Girard seems to hold perfectly.
Greeting! I would like to refer you to one of the most beautiful Orthodox works in my opinion, namely the book "Prayers by the Lake" by Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic. I hope that the translator managed to express the Orthodox symbols expressed in the Serbian language in which the book was originally written. It is my great desire to present to the Western world Bishop Nikolai as one of the greatest clergymen of my people and of general Christianity. Since the channel itself is related to symbolism, I think that the works of Bishop Nikolaj are a great addition to the Symbol of Life, and also to this channel. I wish you the Love of God and the Blessing of God in the hope that you will not ignore my proposal. Peace to all!
I loved this discussion! Jonathan and Richard, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and part of the Patriarchate of Antioch still have the foot-washing ceremony on a parish level.
45:50 Another interesting layer of that story is that the person who strips naked and runs away is called a “young man,” and the only other time that Greek word for “young man” is used in St. Mark’s gospel is when a “young man dressed in a white robe” proclaims that Jesus has risen. It’s a powerful connection if you ponder it.
the folding of the shroud is a symbol of coming back for more. i've heard it said that when i am in the middle of feasting and have to leave i will fold my napkin to symbolize that "i will be coming back for more." when i was finished, the napkin would be bundle up on the empty plate. what do you think ?
When y’all talked about the removal of garments and the symbolism in it, it immediately reminded me of the stoning of St. Stephen where Saul is holding the garments of the Jews who stoned Stephen. The stoning of Stephen is meant to mirror the murder of Christ. He is the first martyr and he sets the standard for the Christian life moving forward. It struck me because it was an odd detail. It fits though.
Wow wow!!! Excellent insight. I knew it meant something; but was not sure. I think you hit the nail on the head with this observation. Thanks for taking the time to share it. !!
@@jeremybridges6015 Christ says to Saul, “Saul, why do you persecute me?” I think the fact that Our dear Paul is the man standing red handed with the garments is relevant to his chief of sinners title.
In Jewish culture it meant that the person holding the garment was actively participating in the stoning, not just a bystander. Paul was authorizing the stoning of Stephen by holding his garments.
As to the "napkin" across Christ's face as he lay in the tomb, I was told that in Jewish culture you would do one of two things with a napkin when you left the table: 1) if you were not returning, you would just wad it up and leave it on the table, but 2) if you were coming back, you would fold the napkin neatly. Thus, Christ is signaling that He will be back.
2:43 "to kill the scapegoat" WRONG (and that is where Girard is wrong, in substituting a false use of the term "scapegoat" instead of the Scriptural use. The scapegoat in Scripture was the goat which was sent into the wilderness, symbolizing Christ's taking away the sins of the world. It was the other goat which was killed, symbolizing Christ's death for our sins. In both cases, it was recognized that the goats were innocent, not the cause of societal evil, as the Girardian use of "scapegoat" errs in applying it to one who is believed to be the source of societal problems.
The Lenten veiling of the Church crucifix with purple cloth is standard in Portugal. Even outside the church, some people veil the images. They also 'buried' the Eucharist for 3 days in the Cathedral of my city.
Merci Jonathan and Richard. J'ai participé à la liturgie du Jeudi Saint a comme 'apotre" pour le rituel du lavement des pieds par le prêtre. Cette un honneur énorme. Le vendredi Saint pour la procession et l'adoration de la croix il y a un rituel selon le quelle le prêtre doit enlevez ces chaussures avant embrasser la croix, très intéressant !!
Thanks for your wisdom and insights Jonathan. Would love to hear you speak of the story of Judges 11, the idea of sacrifice and what the story tells about the daughter of Jephthah.
I'm Roman Catholic ('novus ordo') and we have always veiled the holy images with purple cloth (the penitential colour used in Lent and Advent). On Good Friday the priest processes with a cross and intones that hymn three times, consecutively at higher pitches. After the service (Mass of the pre-Sanctified), there is adoration of the cross where you venerate the cross with a kiss or some other suitable way. The veiling of the images generally begins on the fifth Sunday of Lent which starts off 'Passiontide,' the last two weeks of Lent.
The bit about unveiling and kissing the feet of Christ on the cross made me think of the story of Ruth and Boaz! She uncovers his feet at after a harvest dinner, but the marriage can’t be consummated until he has redeemed her from the one who has a close claim.
As someone who can't attend Orthodox services but wants to, I find these episodes on the liturgy to be really wonderful and wholesome Also, one of my favourite renditions of the intro music so far
i’m still at the start, but what about the nuance that murder is the Fallen cultural basis and marriage is the Kingdom/intended cultural basis? both seem to exist in juxtaposition.
😂🤣Potiphar was the captain of Pharaoh’s guard… off protecting the King, which makes his wife’s creeping behind his back all the more hilarious in a “did the Bible just throw shade?” Kinda way.
Catholic Church in Eastern Europe has kept lots of traditional rituals . You won’t see much of it in the US for example which by the way doesn’t resemble Catholic Church much, it’s more of a Protestant gathering with singing, clapping and all that crap.
My parish (Catholic) does some similar things as in your Orthodox Churches (foot washing, cross veneration (kissing of the cross, watching over the tomb). I think some the readings may be different but we go through the same moments of the Passion. The opening chant on Holy Saturday in my parish was amazing as if it we were walking into the tomb with Christ. Thank you for this video, Jonathan. Holy Week and Eastern Octave is beautiful time. I believe there is another vigil for our parish this Saturday. Also, we renewed our vows (Baptismal and Confirmation) which was beautiful furthering adding to symbolism of Christ wedding the Church.
Excellent discussion. Very insightful. Particularly the tomb also being the bridle chamber. Which I had heard before now. But never really got the fuller significance of. Also the thought of it all coalescing around the ‘Passion’. The ‘removal of garments’. For both thoughts can of course be linked to mere sex. Rather than a holy relationship higher purpose joining. As if the whole thing hinges on the ultimate transmutation of an otherwise typical ‘sexual impulse’ expressed to bring about a ‘lower order of reality’. Aka ‘mis-creation’, aka through a physical woman. A Mrs the ‘Mark’ of Perfect Spiritual Creation of God’s One Son Pattern. To ‘Drag-On’ time & delay of The Groom some more. In continuing debasement of what it was all ultimately for. To something better. A more controlled, aware & transformed. To a higher ‘miracle impulse’. A miracle mirror mind & HeArt call to His Bride to bring about a manifested from within Herself of a ‘higher order of reality’ from Christ. Namely God’s One Pattern of A Son. Now to rule as also King. Really enjoyed the conversation guys. Many thanks. Paul
Well ... re: Romulus killing Remus... I watch this for a couple of reasons, and one of them is to get more familiar with history. Now ... I was probably taught long ago that Romulus killed Remus, but at the time I was taught that, I was a kid, and most kids ... well that stuff isn't important. History, especially history tied up in myth, seems like something quite detached and playing tag at recess or getting the attention of that pretty girl three rows over take precedence over committing these things to memory. So ... yeah ... that was helpful, Jonathan.
I don't see the tomb as the marriage chamber. In Jewish betrothal, the groom offers the bride a drink (sacrament) but the Jews refused it. The Christians drank. After the offered drink is consumed, the bridegroom goes to his Father's house to prepare the a place (bridal chamber?) for them. When he returns, they (we who have accepted the cup along with Christ) return to "the place" together.
Maybe this question has been asked before; if so, my apologies for the redundancy. I've watched all the "Universal History" videos, but I certainly haven't looked at all the comments. For some reason this one especially has me wondering: how do ancient Far Eastern nations/people groups, such as those in India, China, Japan, etc., fit into the U.H. story? Is it just that, given enough time and saturation in the arc of Christendom, they would create/discover their own place in that story, and the narrative details thereof? Maybe that last question opens up a difficult subset of questions, regarding whether the "writing" of U.H. continues to the present day. For instance, is it yet to be seen what place, if any, contemporary cultures in the Americas have in the story? What about pre-Columbian cultures? Perhaps I'm trying to bring too many disparate things in relation to one another...Perhaps I'm missing the point of U. H. entirely. Any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.
Roman Catholic, Poland: we still build in a church a Christ's tomb - whe don't have an icon but there is a figure of Christ in the tomb, veiled and lots of decoration like flowers, rocks, sometimes it is beautiful sometimes a bit too much. At the end of Good Friday there is a procession which carry Blessed Sacrament to the tomb and it stays there veiled until Sunday early morning. We even have something like roman guardians of the tomb - local firefighters :) Also during Holy Thursday there is a moment when the music in the church stops - no organs, no bells, only wooden clappers, singing a cappella. It is like this up to Saturday night - Gloria if I remember correctly. And we have something like a dungeon - after Holy Thursday evening liturgy there is a procession which carry Blessed Sacrament from the Tabercle to a special place that symbolize Prison - there is an image of Christ but covered with bars. Unveiling of the Cross - that hymn is repeated three times. Then people go to adorate the Cross - they kiss pierced legs. Saturday morning - we bless our Easter breakfast - we bring baskets with food to the church. And we start celebrating ressurection during Saturday Evening and this is my favorite part of Triduum because it is so mystical and joyful at the same time. Hearing "Exultet"... I love Easter. It is so rich in symbolism and meaning. There is a lot of singing for a choir member but at least the songs are beautiful.
Speaking up for the few Anglo-Catholics remaining in the Episcopal Church, in our parish we do veil the crosses during Lent, Maundy Thursday includes a foot washing with the Institution of the Eucharist. This is followed by a Good Friday Mass with pre-sanctified Host from Thurs; the procession of the Cross "Behold the wood of the Cross on which hung the salvation of the world." and it's veneration. This Good Friday mass is not technically ended,there is no dismissal ("The Mass has ended...") the Host is transferred in a veiled ciborum to the Garden Tomb (a side chapel) for the overnight Watch, all the candles and brass candle sticks and other liturgical furniture are removed from the altar and the Tabernacle is left open and empty. The congregation leaves the church in the dark and in silence. The next day, Holy Saturday is a quiet day, no Mass, a day for personal reflection on Christ Resting and the harrowing of Hell. Saturday evening is Easter Vigil, it is a continuation of the Good Friday service; we start in the dark, light a fire, have Baptisms then share the light and the Mass begins. Christ is Risen! Thank you for you work. I have really enjoyed this Universal History series. Thank you for recommending Stripping of the Altars, I had heard of it but never read it; I'm working my way through it now. Christ is Risen!
I'd be curious to explore the correspondences between Saint Joseph (spouse of the Virgin Mary) and Mary Magdalene (close friend, but not bride) of Christ. Mary, Mother of God being the Virgin Bride and Christ being the Rejected Bridegroom made me think about the strange relationships that St. Joseph and St. Mary Magdalene have to those archetypes. They seem to act as these appropriate placeholders to what would have been typical marriages, had our heroes Mary and Jesus not required special partnerships. I wonder if monastic life is a parallel to these strange archetypal relationship positions one can hold to our Lord and Lady... Also, it seems significant that Mary Magdalene is the first person to see Christ emerge from the bridegroom chamber/tomb. Is she a kind of image of the Bride? She has always fascinated me and I've intuited there's something important about her in the symbolic story. The unmarried woman who has a special relationship to Christ that while holy, seems like it holds a treasured secret.
This is what Joseph Smith did. He built the mansion house which was a place owned by the church and used to accommodate visitors and dignitaries. He also ceremoniously married women who were 7+ months pregnant and married. Your video explains why God told him to do this. He was establishing the Kingdom of God on the earth.
It might have been said here already but during Holy Week in America all Catholic Churches veil the statues, icons and Crucifixes in the Church, but in the Novus Ordo and Latin rites.
About 51:15, I'm a Catholic who attend Novus Ordo and, at least in my country, it's a common practice to cover images at beginning of lent and uncovering the cross just as you described.
Richard Rohlin about the folded napkin, in jewish tradition this way the servants would understood that The master is not finished with his meal (his business), he will be comming back to continue (the second comming). I heard this from "One for israel" channel.
We still veil images, icons and statutes in the West, unfortunately, the Novus Ordo has done away with a lot of this. The best argument that the Orthodox have against Catholicism is not the Papacy, but the Novus Ordo.
About Joseph, and parallels, even though the brothers sold Joseph into Egypt, when the Jewish people leave Egypt they take his remains with them. They take him out of Egypt to the promise land with them.
What an eye opener. Thank you guys.. awesome! The two of you have helped greatly to ,yes Johnathan, to hold it in your mind long enough to really look at it Thank you
ua-cam.com/video/hHWcDQ8UZho/v-deo.html I think the pattern JP is talking was portrayed really clearly in an episode of family guy from several years ago. Basically Meg decides she's done with everyone abusing her, and the entire Griffin family falls to pieces. Then she decides she wants to keep the family together, so she starts accepting the abuse again and everything goes back to normal. It's an awful pattern but very true. I can't find the episode, but if someone knows what I'm talking about, share a clip link.
10:40 so the “focus” or Garth of the modern world is the TV 📺 where you watch “Stars” who are admired as gods, are watched acting out dramas. Oh, How far we have progressed.
I could be wrong here but my understanding of Girard isn’t that murder is the basis of all culture. That’s the lie being presented or believed or lived as Truth. The Truth is a radical Love.
Fr. Thomas Hopko’s teaching that Christ, like Moses, Isaac & Jacob, found His bride (as in Hosea, a woman of reputation) as a well has helped to deepen this bridegroom theme. Thanks for this. You might find an exploration of the theme of Christ the Bridegroom in Lutheran hymnody an interesting research.
Thank you to Hayden Lukas for creating this version of the intro music: soundcloud.com/user-542590843/easter-overture?
This is a personal fav.
Greeting! I would like to refer you to one of the most beautiful Orthodox works in my opinion, namely the book "Prayers by the Lake" by Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic.
I hope that the translator managed to express the Orthodox symbols expressed in the Serbian language in which the book was originally written.
It is my great desire to present to the Western world Bishop Nikolai as one of the greatest clergymen of my people and of general Christianity. Since the channel itself is related to symbolism, I think that the works of Bishop Nikolaj are a great addition to the Symbol of Life, and also to this channel. I wish you the Love of God and the Blessing of God in the hope that you will not ignore my proposal. Peace to all!
in my humble opinion the most beautiful music for the introduction was from the early clips :). i miss that sound!
but these are less important things. I would like to thank Jonathan for his dedicated work and wish you much of God's wisdom and God's Blessing in the future.
Thank you for sharing knowledge and effort.
May God keep your heart and eyes clean so that you do not sin, but teach in the light those who ask you to do so!
You went Bardcore! Thank you for transporting me
Thank you Jonathan for featuring music from your fans, I enjoy the different interpretations and the fan participation.
Thank you for your work Jonathan. Because of your videos I found the Orthodox Church and was baptized on Lazarus Saturday. God bless you.
God grant you many years!
Can you explain?
Many years!!!
Welcome to the Church, brother! Many years!
Same for me.
I have read a wonderful explanation for the folded "napkin" that was placed over Christ's face in the tomb. It comes from Jewish table manners 1st century AD.
If the person eating had finished, he would throw away the napkin scrunched up as a signal to the servers to clear his plate. If however he intended to return to the meal, he folded it. Anyone from this culture would have instantly understood Christ's message "I'm not done here, I'll be back. "
My lifelong protestant father, who became a pastor a few years back, mentioned this in his Easter sermon. I had never heard it before and am always impressed at the depth of layers of Christ's symbolism in Jewish culture & law.
Thank you. I won't forget that.
Wow, very nice detail, thank you for sharing, glory to God!
Also he is the meal
In keeping with the marriage theme of this video, the newly baptized/chrismated are processed in a circle. If I understand correctly, only at this sacrament and at weddings and ordination does this circle procession occur.
This is very timely for me, because this Holy Saturday is my day to process in a circle and it all started with my first Pageau video a little over a year ago.
May God grant you many years!
I used to love your videos, Bob! 4 years ago I, my husband and our sons were Chrismated. It has been the greatest blessing of our lives. God's blessings to you!
Around 37:45
"If there is a true pattern you will find it in the story of Christ... there is no pattern that is true that will not be in His story"
That is very useful in understanding the correspondences that one may find between Christianity and other religions.
To answer what you were saying around 51:20 with regards to veiling in the Catholic Church, we continue to veil statuary and icons, especially the crucifix behind the altar. We do it at the novus ordo parish we usually go to.
Also yeah we still do adoration of the cross on Good Friday where the priest says exactly what you described and the cross is unveiled after which we kiss it. I'll stop posting as I'm watching now lol
I thank the both of you wise men deeply. I was just catechized three weeks ago into a Russian Parish and attended my first Resurrection Liturgy Saturday Night. It was an astonishing and beautiful, transformative service. It was truly beyond words. Thank you for pulling me in gentlemen.
51:40 we still unveil the cross with this exact invocation in the Roman Catholic rite. Most of the practices you describe as being in Late Mideval England are still practiced today.
My parish also, and the statues are veiled the last couple weeks of Lent.
Girard, jung, Weinstein etc and a lot of modern thinkers give us real insight into the world view of fallen humanity and not humanity meant for glory. Marriage over murder
09:30 "every pattern that is a real pattern is found in the story of Christ."
You are on a roll in this episode!
Most Novus Ordo parishes veil images during Holy Week, but I have seen some parishes do the last two weeks of lent, as in the traditional Latin mass
This was incredible and edifying. Thank you Jonathan and Richard. Χριστός Ανέστη!
An unexpected blessing, praise God!🌹
26:36 there is a beautiful line in the Dao te ching where it says something like: if an inferior man encounters the Dao he will surely mock it. If he hadn't it wouldn't have been the Dao.
Hi Jonathan,
Just noticed the second talk about the Quest of the Holy Grail is missing from the "Universal History" Playlist, the video named "The Search for the Holy Grail | pt.2 | with Richard Rohlin"
Could you also include it later on the playlist?
The folded linen napkin left in the Christ’s tomb was interpreted as he’s coming back. Also, our Catholic Church has a night watch on Good Friday after our service at a portable altar in the rear of the church.
Does Richard ever shares what/how was his curriculum while homeschooled? Or at least what can we look for when creating one?
@50:56 for us Western Rite Orthodox, we continue the veiling of icons and the cross.
Some parishes do all their icons, others may just only cover the cross and crucifixes and other symbols, especially ones on the altar.
Thanks
The face cloth in which he had been buried was “folded up in a place by itself.”
Could this be a symbol of how Jesus was often not recognized *by his face but by other means* in his post-Resurrection appearances?
FWIW Western Rite Antiochian Churches veil the Icons and Cross. Thanks for the talk fellas, loved it!
The rite of washing of the feet is called Holy Thursday Mandatum, in the Catholic liturgy.
The people demand the full length Augustus episode lol
I’m watching because you said girard is wrong 🙂
Ooo new intro song :D
technically new arrangement.. I love this. My favourite thing is when people take existing music and re-imagine it.
@@nicolesimonealexander4639 rightly said. It would be cool to make a compilation of the various arrangements of this song.
Epitaphios
What if you loan me money to build a bakery? Isn't that money generating something new?
37:30 There you have it, folks. Atheism is officially cringe. (X
Very interesting. In Ethiopia shaking hands and kissing in greeting is forbidden during Holy Week, to remember Judas’ betrayal
Romam Catholic Churches still do the veiling of all the statues and the slow unveiling of the Cross on Good Friday, with that exact hymn you mentioned. We kiss the crucifix at the end, too. The veiling in our diocese actually began on Passion Sunday (Palm Sunday) and ended @ Easter Vigil. ETA: The Medieval custom about building a "tomb" for Jesus might be also the origin of the Catholic custom of carrying the Blessed Sacrament in a solemn procession to the "Place of Repose" (sometimes called "Monument"), which is a place especially built for it, similar to a Tabernacle, but portable, and located outside of the church. The Tabernacle at the church remains empty until Easter Vigil.
Thank you.
Same for us high-church Anglicans. (aka "Anglo-Catholics")
@Vince Perri Yeah that's a real problem how they just refer to the West, but their "West" is pretty much just North America (Americentrism much?) and so they talk like it's all protestantism, forgetting the other half of the West that is in Europe and is mostly Catholic and so, liturgical.
@Vince Perri interesting, intellectually I haven't come across any Catholics in the anglosphere that could compare to what's coming out of these Orthobros, besides Bishop Baron I guess, would you include him in that liturgical resurgence?
@@AugustasKunc Dr Brant Pitre would be a good guest to discuss (not debate) liturgy and symbolism in the Bible from the Catholic side. The Meaning of Catholic channel is interesting too
03:25 "murder is not the basis of a culture. Marriage is."
Boom! Mic drop 🎤
Interesting that the hearth today has been replaced by the TV.
That very thing is discussed in The Lord of Spirits podcast, episode "The Gods of the Nations". It sounds to me like Richard was referencing that episode. It is a good listen!
Yikes
Woe is we!
Thank you gentlemen, I was just baptized this Palm Sunday, and this is my first Holy Week where I can fully attend every service, so this is very timely! God is with us! By the way, I wouldn't have been baptized without Johnathans work, truly he is calling many of us to the church with a clear voice. Thank you! God is with us!
God grant you many years!
Many years!!!
My day is this Saturday and it was Jonathan's work that got me started too.
Many years! I’m still a catechumen and hope to be baptized fairly soon. Jonathan has been a strong pillar in my journey to Orthodoxy too.
Glory to God! Welcome home.🙏☦
I read that another aspect of the cursing of the fig tree has to do with the fruiting habits of the fig trees of that area. The text states that the fig tree had leaves, but no fruit; according to what I read, this is abnormal, as the fig tree should have begun producing fruit at the same time it started leafing. So for it to have leaves but no fruit was akin to the fig tree putting on a show but having nothing to offer, a lie of outward appearances covering up an inward lacking.
The big takeaway I got from Girard book was that Christ broke the scapegoat patten.
The last scapegoat needed.
51:00 I'm a Catholic from Costa Rica and here we do veil images for lent (at least at The Metropolitan Cathedral of San José and at my parish we do) and on Holy Friday we do un-vail the Cross and we venerate it and we kiss it (it's called the Adoration of the Cross).
God bless you all brothers in Christ and ¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Actually, in traditional Catholicism (pre-Vatican II) we move the Blessed Sacrament to a side altar on Holy Thursday. On Good Friday we celebrate the Adoration of the Cross (unveiling and kissing it, just as Richard described), and at Easter Vigil on Holy Saturday all icons are unveiled for the first time in Lent.
Thank you for sharing this. I am mainly familiar with pre-tridentine practice in medieval Europe.
In regards to the napkin being folded. There is a story that, traditionally, when the master of the house was finished with his meal, he would crumple his napkin when he left. This would signify the end of the meal to the servants. If he left it folded, it meant he would return.
"Thy Bridal chamber I see adorned, O my Savior, And I have no wedding garment that I may enter, O Giver of light, enlighten The vesture of my soul, and save me."
Have a blessed Holy Week everyone!
I am unconvinced that Girard is wrong and I think it’s really important and helpful to gain the insight the pattern he identifies offers. Girard’s scapegoat theory is not about the reasons a group comes together in the first place … its about the founding myths and sacrifice that enable a primitive group to hold together and grow beyond a certain size after the mimetic desire and conflict has threatened to tear it apart. Your guest also doesn’t explain why human sacrifice was so central and common which is where Girard started. It offers an alternative interpretation of the myths but not the necessity of violent rites that are within them.
I really find your thoughts on technology and civilization so fascinating and relevant. I would like to hear you talk to someone who applies Girard rather than argues against it. The patterns he pulls out of the bible and new testament really deepened my faith and helped me so much in identifying how mimetic desire affects me and leads me to sin.
Nevertheless that doesn't make Girard right, in fact - you just stated what Girard thinks, not what is reality
Richard was just being spicy lol. He admits later on that he doesn’t think Girard is outright wrong, but rather that the theory isn’t complete.
Jonathan and Richard start to tie the whole thing together by the end, though I'm not sure that Richard recognized the full implications when he said, "Self-sacrifice is the kind of sacrifice that is the basis of marriage."
What I'd argue is that marriage, /in its fullest Christian context/, is the answer to the problem the scapegoat was intended to solve, while ancient marriage was often simply one more expression of the scapegoat principle.
At its heart, the scapegoat principle is based in the intuition that it's possible to derive group unity from the sacrifice of a single individual. Tribal concepts of marriage still sort of did that -- one family would effectively sacrifice their daughter to another to unite the two families together, and the ceremony in which that was done would have almost certainly involved some sort of sacrifice to bring about the formation of a covenant relationship. The Roman concept of the king consummating a relationship to the city, as represented by a Vestal virgin -- a woman who was supposed to be killed if she lost her virginity -- suggests a scapegoating influence to that, too. And it would make perfect sense if the prevalence of rape in the ancient myths of city formation reflected the intuition that marriage was, in a sense, the sacrifice of a virgin.
Christianity, in its ancient context, /rewrote marriage/. Christ as Bridegroom sacrifices himself to call forth a dynamic of mutual self-sacrifice, where unity is derived not from the sacrifice of the physical life of one for the group, but rather from the sacrifice of the whole self of each for the other. Marriage was reconfigured from a sacrifice where two /groups/ sacrifice one (regardless of how she felt about the matter) to produce unity into a sacrifice where two /individuals/ willingly sacrifice /themselves/ to become one. And in that sense, the pattern and counter-pattern discussed by Girard seems to hold perfectly.
Greeting! I would like to refer you to one of the most beautiful Orthodox works in my opinion, namely the book "Prayers by the Lake" by Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic.
I hope that the translator managed to express the Orthodox symbols expressed in the Serbian language in which the book was originally written.
It is my great desire to present to the Western world Bishop Nikolai as one of the greatest clergymen of my people and of general Christianity. Since the channel itself is related to symbolism, I think that the works of Bishop Nikolaj are a great addition to the Symbol of Life, and also to this channel. I wish you the Love of God and the Blessing of God in the hope that you will not ignore my proposal. Peace to all!
Big fan.
Just 15 seconds in I know I’ll get to here Jonathan say Rene Girard a bunch of times in a way I can’t. I’ll try but I can’t do it
Girard is right in my opinion
I loved this discussion! Jonathan and Richard, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and part of the Patriarchate of Antioch still have the foot-washing ceremony on a parish level.
I didn’t know Romulus killed Remus :( you hurt my feels 😔
Same lol
Ditto
45:50 Another interesting layer of that story is that the person who strips naked and runs away is called a “young man,” and the only other time that Greek word for “young man” is used in St. Mark’s gospel is when a “young man dressed in a white robe” proclaims that Jesus has risen. It’s a powerful connection if you ponder it.
the folding of the shroud is a symbol of coming back for more. i've heard it said that when i am in the middle of feasting and have to leave i will fold my napkin to symbolize that "i will be coming back for more." when i was finished, the napkin would be bundle up on the empty plate. what do you think ?
When y’all talked about the removal of garments and the symbolism in it, it immediately reminded me of the stoning of St. Stephen where Saul is holding the garments of the Jews who stoned Stephen. The stoning of Stephen is meant to mirror the murder of Christ. He is the first martyr and he sets the standard for the Christian life moving forward. It struck me because it was an odd detail. It fits though.
Wow wow!!! Excellent insight. I knew it meant something; but was not sure. I think you hit the nail on the head with this observation. Thanks for taking the time to share it. !!
I think Pageau would elucidate in more detail ofc
@@jeremybridges6015 Christ says to Saul, “Saul, why do you persecute me?” I think the fact that Our dear Paul is the man standing red handed with the garments is relevant to his chief of sinners title.
In Jewish culture it meant that the person holding the garment was actively participating in the stoning, not just a bystander. Paul was authorizing the stoning of Stephen by holding his garments.
Jonathan, your work is incredible. Thank you for all that you do.
You guys make my life so much better.
As to the "napkin" across Christ's face as he lay in the tomb, I was told that in Jewish culture you would do one of two things with a napkin when you left the table: 1) if you were not returning, you would just wad it up and leave it on the table, but 2) if you were coming back, you would fold the napkin neatly. Thus, Christ is signaling that He will be back.
2:43 "to kill the scapegoat" WRONG (and that is where Girard is wrong, in substituting a false use of the term "scapegoat" instead of the Scriptural use. The scapegoat in Scripture was the goat which was sent into the wilderness, symbolizing Christ's taking away the sins of the world. It was the other goat which was killed, symbolizing Christ's death for our sins. In both cases, it was recognized that the goats were innocent, not the cause of societal evil, as the Girardian use of "scapegoat" errs in applying it to one who is believed to be the source of societal problems.
Love this rendition of opening musical theme
I was about to say the same thing.
Thank you. I'm glad you liked it!
Just have to say that music box version of the theme is haunting in all the right ways, love it.
The Lenten veiling of the Church crucifix with purple cloth is standard in Portugal. Even outside the church, some people veil the images. They also 'buried' the Eucharist for 3 days in the Cathedral of my city.
The Bridegroom is the Scapegoat.
This whole episode is blowing my mind 🤯🤯🤯
It complements the book by Mario Baghos about Kings and Cities quite nicely.
The different music intro creations are really special, and a cool way to feature different musicians.
Merci Jonathan and Richard. J'ai participé à la liturgie du Jeudi Saint a comme 'apotre" pour le rituel du lavement des pieds par le prêtre. Cette un honneur énorme. Le vendredi Saint pour la procession et l'adoration de la croix il y a un rituel selon le quelle le prêtre doit enlevez ces chaussures avant embrasser la croix, très intéressant !!
Thanks for your wisdom and insights Jonathan. Would love to hear you speak of the story of Judges 11, the idea of sacrifice and what the story tells about the daughter of Jephthah.
I'm Roman Catholic ('novus ordo') and we have always veiled the holy images with purple cloth (the penitential colour used in Lent and Advent). On Good Friday the priest processes with a cross and intones that hymn three times, consecutively at higher pitches. After the service (Mass of the pre-Sanctified), there is adoration of the cross where you venerate the cross with a kiss or some other suitable way.
The veiling of the images generally begins on the fifth Sunday of Lent which starts off 'Passiontide,' the last two weeks of Lent.
The folded napkin signifies He will return
The bit about unveiling and kissing the feet of Christ on the cross made me think of the story of Ruth and Boaz! She uncovers his feet at after a harvest dinner, but the marriage can’t be consummated until he has redeemed her from the one who has a close claim.
As someone who can't attend Orthodox services but wants to, I find these episodes on the liturgy to be really wonderful and wholesome
Also, one of my favourite renditions of the intro music so far
i’m still at the start, but what about the nuance that murder is the Fallen cultural basis and marriage is the Kingdom/intended cultural basis? both seem to exist in juxtaposition.
That new theme music tho...
Brilliant as always. Best series of all time, keep em coming.
😂🤣Potiphar was the captain of Pharaoh’s guard… off protecting the King, which makes his wife’s creeping behind his back all the more hilarious in a “did the Bible just throw shade?” Kinda way.
Peter puts his garments back on to swim to the shore when John points out that Jesus is the One calling!
Catholic Church in Eastern Europe has kept lots of traditional rituals . You won’t see much of it in the US for example which by the way doesn’t resemble Catholic Church much, it’s more of a Protestant gathering with singing, clapping and all that crap.
My parish (Catholic) does some similar things as in your Orthodox Churches (foot washing, cross veneration (kissing of the cross, watching over the tomb). I think some the readings may be different but we go through the same moments of the Passion. The opening chant on Holy Saturday in my parish was amazing as if it we were walking into the tomb with Christ. Thank you for this video, Jonathan. Holy Week and Eastern Octave is beautiful time. I believe there is another vigil for our parish this Saturday. Also, we renewed our vows (Baptismal and Confirmation) which was beautiful furthering adding to symbolism of Christ wedding the Church.
Excellent discussion. Very insightful. Particularly the tomb also being the bridle chamber. Which I had heard before now. But never really got the fuller significance of.
Also the thought of it all coalescing around the ‘Passion’. The ‘removal of garments’. For both thoughts can of course be linked to mere sex. Rather than a holy relationship higher purpose joining.
As if the whole thing hinges on the ultimate transmutation of an otherwise typical ‘sexual impulse’ expressed to bring about a ‘lower order of reality’.
Aka ‘mis-creation’, aka through a physical woman. A Mrs the ‘Mark’ of Perfect Spiritual Creation of God’s One Son Pattern.
To ‘Drag-On’ time & delay of The Groom some more. In continuing debasement of what it was all ultimately for.
To something better. A more controlled, aware & transformed. To a higher ‘miracle impulse’.
A miracle mirror mind & HeArt call to His Bride to bring about a manifested from within Herself of a ‘higher order of reality’ from Christ. Namely God’s One Pattern of A Son.
Now to rule as also King.
Really enjoyed the conversation guys. Many thanks. Paul
Well ... re: Romulus killing Remus... I watch this for a couple of reasons, and one of them is to get more familiar with history. Now ... I was probably taught long ago that Romulus killed Remus, but at the time I was taught that, I was a kid, and most kids ... well that stuff isn't important. History, especially history tied up in myth, seems like something quite detached and playing tag at recess or getting the attention of that pretty girl three rows over take precedence over committing these things to memory. So ... yeah ... that was helpful, Jonathan.
Bridegroom Matins is also done Christmas Eve. Because the whole of Christianity is Prefigured in the Nativity of Our Lord.
I don't see the tomb as the marriage chamber. In Jewish betrothal, the groom offers the bride a drink (sacrament) but the Jews refused it. The Christians drank. After the offered drink is consumed, the bridegroom goes to his Father's house to prepare the a place (bridal chamber?) for them. When he returns, they (we who have accepted the cup along with Christ) return to "the place" together.
Maybe this question has been asked before; if so, my apologies for the redundancy. I've watched all the "Universal History" videos, but I certainly haven't looked at all the comments. For some reason this one especially has me wondering: how do ancient Far Eastern nations/people groups, such as those in India, China, Japan, etc., fit into the U.H. story? Is it just that, given enough time and saturation in the arc of Christendom, they would create/discover their own place in that story, and the narrative details thereof? Maybe that last question opens up a difficult subset of questions, regarding whether the "writing" of U.H. continues to the present day. For instance, is it yet to be seen what place, if any, contemporary cultures in the Americas have in the story? What about pre-Columbian cultures? Perhaps I'm trying to bring too many disparate things in relation to one another...Perhaps I'm missing the point of U. H. entirely. Any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.
Roman Catholic, Poland: we still build in a church a Christ's tomb - whe don't have an icon but there is a figure of Christ in the tomb, veiled and lots of decoration like flowers, rocks, sometimes it is beautiful sometimes a bit too much. At the end of Good Friday there is a procession which carry Blessed Sacrament to the tomb and it stays there veiled until Sunday early morning. We even have something like roman guardians of the tomb - local firefighters :)
Also during Holy Thursday there is a moment when the music in the church stops - no organs, no bells, only wooden clappers, singing a cappella. It is like this up to Saturday night - Gloria if I remember correctly.
And we have something like a dungeon - after Holy Thursday evening liturgy there is a procession which carry Blessed Sacrament from the Tabercle to a special place that symbolize Prison - there is an image of Christ but covered with bars.
Unveiling of the Cross - that hymn is repeated three times. Then people go to adorate the Cross - they kiss pierced legs.
Saturday morning - we bless our Easter breakfast - we bring baskets with food to the church.
And we start celebrating ressurection during Saturday Evening and this is my favorite part of Triduum because it is so mystical and joyful at the same time. Hearing "Exultet"...
I love Easter. It is so rich in symbolism and meaning. There is a lot of singing for a choir member but at least the songs are beautiful.
Speaking up for the few Anglo-Catholics remaining in the Episcopal Church, in our parish we do veil the crosses during Lent, Maundy Thursday includes a foot washing with the Institution of the Eucharist. This is followed by a Good Friday Mass with pre-sanctified Host from Thurs; the procession of the Cross "Behold the wood of the Cross on which hung the salvation of the world." and it's veneration. This Good Friday mass is not technically ended,there is no dismissal ("The Mass has ended...") the Host is transferred in a veiled ciborum to the Garden Tomb (a side chapel) for the overnight Watch, all the candles and brass candle sticks and other liturgical furniture are removed from the altar and the Tabernacle is left open and empty. The congregation leaves the church in the dark and in silence. The next day, Holy Saturday is a quiet day, no Mass, a day for personal reflection on Christ Resting and the harrowing of Hell. Saturday evening is Easter Vigil, it is a continuation of the Good Friday service; we start in the dark, light a fire, have Baptisms then share the light and the Mass begins. Christ is Risen!
Thank you for you work. I have really enjoyed this Universal History series. Thank you for recommending Stripping of the Altars, I had heard of it but never read it; I'm working my way through it now.
Christ is Risen!
I'd be curious to explore the correspondences between Saint Joseph (spouse of the Virgin Mary) and Mary Magdalene (close friend, but not bride) of Christ. Mary, Mother of God being the Virgin Bride and Christ being the Rejected Bridegroom made me think about the strange relationships that St. Joseph and St. Mary Magdalene have to those archetypes.
They seem to act as these appropriate placeholders to what would have been typical marriages, had our heroes Mary and Jesus not required special partnerships. I wonder if monastic life is a parallel to these strange archetypal relationship positions one can hold to our Lord and Lady...
Also, it seems significant that Mary Magdalene is the first person to see Christ emerge from the bridegroom chamber/tomb. Is she a kind of image of the Bride?
She has always fascinated me and I've intuited there's something important about her in the symbolic story. The unmarried woman who has a special relationship to Christ that while holy, seems like it holds a treasured secret.
This is what Joseph Smith did. He built the mansion house which was a place owned by the church and used to accommodate visitors and dignitaries. He also ceremoniously married women who were 7+ months pregnant and married. Your video explains why God told him to do this. He was establishing the Kingdom of God on the earth.
It might have been said here already but during Holy Week in America all Catholic Churches veil the statues, icons and Crucifixes in the Church, but in the Novus Ordo and Latin rites.
About 51:15, I'm a Catholic who attend Novus Ordo and, at least in my country, it's a common practice to cover images at beginning of lent and uncovering the cross just as you described.
Richard Rohlin about the folded napkin, in jewish tradition this way the servants would understood that The master is not finished with his meal (his business), he will be comming back to continue (the second comming).
I heard this from "One for israel" channel.
These intros are beautiful, I don’t know why you stopped.
We still veil images, icons and statutes in the West, unfortunately, the Novus Ordo has done away with a lot of this. The best argument that the Orthodox have against Catholicism is not the Papacy, but the Novus Ordo.
Two orthodox trying to explicate patterns on holy week and Pascha:
It's everything, everywhere, on every level, all the time, over and over.
About Joseph, and parallels, even though the brothers sold Joseph into Egypt, when the Jewish people leave Egypt they take his remains with them. They take him out of Egypt to the promise land with them.
What an eye opener.
Thank you guys.. awesome!
The two of you have helped greatly to ,yes Johnathan, to hold it in your mind long enough to really look at it
Thank you
ua-cam.com/video/hHWcDQ8UZho/v-deo.html
I think the pattern JP is talking was portrayed really clearly in an episode of family guy from several years ago. Basically Meg decides she's done with everyone abusing her, and the entire Griffin family falls to pieces. Then she decides she wants to keep the family together, so she starts accepting the abuse again and everything goes back to normal. It's an awful pattern but very true. I can't find the episode, but if someone knows what I'm talking about, share a clip link.
10:40 so the “focus” or Garth of the modern world is the TV 📺 where you watch “Stars” who are admired as gods, are watched acting out dramas. Oh, How far we have progressed.
I could be wrong here but my understanding of Girard isn’t that murder is the basis of all culture. That’s the lie being presented or believed or lived as Truth. The Truth is a radical Love.
Great new intro music! ❤️
Glad you enjoyed it :)
some men, like Richard, don’t want to accept the fact that their beard looks like pubic hair and keep growing it, please stop
Fr. Thomas Hopko’s teaching that Christ, like Moses, Isaac & Jacob, found His bride (as in Hosea, a woman of reputation) as a well has helped to deepen this bridegroom theme. Thanks for this. You might find an exploration of the theme of Christ the Bridegroom in Lutheran hymnody an interesting research.
Imagine basing your entire culture and religion off of killing the most good person to have ever lived
Jonathan do you recommend a book to understand symbolic thinking ?
Is it possible for you to talk with Simon or Garfunkel?
Born and raised Catholic and your videos are informative. Thank you
The folded napkin signifies he will return.
We do veil the cross in Poland.