The situation is more complicated than you think. Tldr: it's all about refereeing and negotiating. I was there. What can I say. These 2 referees. They ruined the mood of many fencers and teams that day. I'm pretty sure they had some "offer from up", cause Uzbekistan cadet saber team too was blatantly sued by them in front of fans and coaches. They tried to hide but they clearly sympathized some teams, especially Kuwait, which in this video. Overall, I was the witness of many things "behind the scenes". Those 2 referees and with Tarantino. Tbh I was shocked that corruption and negotiation can be in tourney like this
I have some more footage of other matches I will be posting which involves the same referee. Tbh this match had some really bad calls which is probably why Kuwait won.
Look there is no suck thing as (offer up) you don’t have something that proves that a country did sm like this maybe the referee was making a mistake it’s fine
You deserve better - your bro is from the MENA region, yet I don't appreciate disrespectful behaviors and I admire those who try to maintain calmness and be respectful.
Yeah, definately something not right there. And no disrespect to the Kuwaits but the Korean team got robbed very clearly. On the flip side I can totally understand the frustration of the Korean team but refusing to shake hands and the massive spat that occurred was definately grounds for a black card.
I agree with this but yes the Korean team was also wrong to not shake hands and give respect to the opposing side after the match even tho there were lots of bad calls during the match where we can totally understand why the Korean team was frustrated.
@@knight6257 Korean coach should have been removed after that first question when he threw his stuff on the ground. Why do you think the Korean kids thought it was proper to throw their stuff later on?
A referee accidentally showed a black card not a red and my opponent put his hand out for a handshake - ref didn't take it back - the kid took advantage of the lack of an experienced ref. I didn't know better. Also, I got an uppercut to my chin in a close-corp battle. I got a yellow card and the other guy nothing. Sometimes we just have to pound sand. SMH.😕
The first call was definitely incorrect. Attack right all day. The second call highlighted in the video was not that disputable. From the video angle it looks like it is either attack no remise parried on the right or parry riposte left. Anyway point left for sure. I agree lately the international referees have been less than adequate, especially in the european games
@@yogohawk13 the angle and quality of the video make it hard to see where on the blade that attack was. assuming he had the intention to beat, to me, from this angle, it looked like the beat was low, therefore parry riposte point left. u might be right and the beat was high enough on the blade to qualify as atac au fer, but hard to tell without a video review
@@ZhongXinabingchilling Attaque con fer from the right is as clear as day. The Kuwaiti fencer's MOVED from the beat on the tip of his blade. You don't need HD to see that.
I saw this mach and i can say in this mach referees help to Kuwait team. Thanks of this they won. Referees didn't give lots of touch Korean team. I think if referees gave all touch correctly Korean team maybe won.
@@A-tb4ul I think Korean team more stronger than team Kuwait in Fencing and I think in next competition when Korean team fence with team Kuwait, Korean team show them what they can do
And it happened more than once too. If you're curious as well, the coach was none other than Tarantino, former member of the Italian Mens Sabre Team. They really should've policed that though.
This happened a bunch of times in the tournament from the first round all the way to the final. The interesting thing is that there was barely any stopping him until it got into the rounds that were noticed by a lot of people/ref.
So : To me the first touch is wrong The second one seems like the prise de fer is very low on the blade, so giving pary riposte to Kuwait doesn't seem absurd. Destroying the decor with your blase out of anger absolutely should be black carded
I was a fencer in that competition and the situation was definitely fishy, I definitely thought the Koreans would have won that. Nevertheless Kuwait actually went on to win the finals too
I was there too and I knew something felt fishy during this match. But for the final we had to give it to Kuwait as they made a huge comeback which is probably why they were able to catch up to HKG and take the win.
@@Grandsabre06 yeah we lost the finals, they fenced pretty well towards the end since they got the momentum back. The semis in individuals was also really suspicious the 15-14 bout between the Uzbekistan guy and my teammate was really sketchy
@@AaronLi-m2z He played really well in the match but unfortunately lost because of points that were mistaken by the ref. Also was the guys name Hugo or something?
@@craigvandevooren2341 view "fencing's biggest open secret" it's pretty widely accepted Kuwait's star Alshamlan is blatantly paying off saber refs. this isn't a contested claim at all, it's just a thing that happens that everyone knows happens
Let me get this straight, all the drama for two incorrect calls? I mean it sucks but you can’t say it’s intentional especially when there’s no video. BTW even if the referee is bad you should always respect your opponent because most of the time it’s ain’t even there fault
Can't hear blade contact in this video... but it "looks' like a prise de fer from the left handed Korean... I would have given him the touch upon hearing any blade contact. (If no blade contact, I would have said initial attack short, riposte from Kuwaiti (good), couter-riposte from Korean (irrelevant).
@@craigvandevooren2341 At this distance and frame rate you cannot make that determination. As you state it, the action is not a prise de fer it would be a parried counterattack. Sadly, you state it incorrectly.
First, it's been 30 years since I was heavily involved in fencing (and then mostly in epee). Second, this is not the perspective to be judging good and bad calls by an official (I hate the fact that they started to be called referees rather than "Director Technique"). What may be obvious to someone sitting at the end of a piste cannot necessarily be seen by an official. So I would not care to say whether the official was right or wrong. Third, how did the official describe the actions? On the first disputed call the narrator says the touch should have gone to the Koreans because there was no blade contact. But watching the video slowly it could be said that the Kuwaiti fencer attacked and missed and the Korean fencer did not counter attack allowing the Kuwaiti to restart his attack, which he did before the Korean initiated his own making, in my view: Attack from the left, no. Reprise of the attack from the left, yes, counter attack from the right. Touch to the left. For the second disputed touch: Attack from the right, no, counter attack from the left, yes, remise of the attack not in time. Touch left. As for the display of temper by the Korean fencer, he needs to work on his self control. As for not shaking hands, bad form. They should remember that it was not the other team that made questionable calls. Lastly, I miss the days when it was touches against rather than touches for (the person with the most touches lost), double defeats in epee (had a few of those), when the side judges in saber could say "No touch, the side of the blade was used", and saber fencers could fleche!
Refusal to call AIP outside of box, allowing long holding attacks with jumps and all sorts of other shit combined with the latest tendency to try and seperate every action in the middle to avoid saying simultaneous has destroyed the sport. You've got about 10-20 years until it's removed from Olympics and replaced with other forms of sword sports.
"tendency to try and seperate every action in the middle to avoid saying simultaneous has destroyed the sport." -- +1000. They have dumbed down saber so much that I have trouble watching it now without laughing at "What is this @!#$?"
So the score what 45-44 or so? So out of >80 calls, the ref (without the help of video) makes one call that is either a missed parry (or perhaps they're saying the foot landed - I'm not sure), and then another call, which to me, does look like a riposte. That's no reason to commit a black card offense. That's not even enough evidence to suggest biased refereeing on it's own. What about the other 43 touches that Kuwait scored?
Im sorry if I wasn’t able to show more evidence as I was also participating in the tournament at the time. Im not that sure but I think the score was 45 -42 to Kuwait.
One probably mistake, and one maybe not mistake out of 87 calls is not particularly bad. Your video strongly implies bias on the refs part (rather than just poor sportsmanship from the Koreans), was there other stuff that convinced you that the refs were biased other than just 2/87 calls you disagreed with?
@@JohnSmith-cx8co As I said I wasn’t able to take all the videos for the entire game. There were more than 2 of those touches that show the bias/mistake of the ref. Also about how you said I didn’t take the video of when Korean showed bad sportsmanship, I kinda already explained it in the video but also the video of the sword throwing was provided in the video. But for everyone that was witnessing the game would have seen how biased the ref was. Im very sorry for not being able to take the video of the whole 85 calls as I was also in the tournament participating. If you think their not biased its your opinion not mine.
@@Grandsabre06 Your video shows 10 of the 87 actions. One of them is probably wrong (though can you clarify, was the call "parry riposte" or "attack-no, attack touche", the Koreans foot is completely down before he hits, so I could see a case for attack-no), and the other one looks like a riposte to me. None of the other 8 actions you showed looked at all ambiguous. From this sample alone - which is 11% of the entire match, the reffing seems fine to me. Maybe you're saying that there were a bunch more bad calls in the match, but I don't get why you wouldn't include those actions rather than the 8 perfectly fine calls that you chose then.
Sabre is the fastest weapon in fencing, the flech in sabre was banned to make refereeing more "easy" . Thanks to sport science athletes are faster then ever, making refereeing even more difficult. But it is by no means an excuse to behave unsportsmanlike and damaging properties. This goes straight against the core values of the fencing sport. It seems to be a sighn of the time we live in, that it is ok to behave intolerant.
Touch was parry riposte. Korean coach gets one verbal warning, then yellow and could also get black carded if repeated offence. At the end, korean team destroy property and refuse to shake hands, black card 100%. Referee was too nice.
First question - Maybe that midget in the beginning should have made an attack rather jumping up in the air. The second question is answered by that kid should not have beat down on the blade towards the guard. That's a parry. Beats should be on the top third to make it obvious. Black card was deserved.
For the first touch the ref gave the point because he thought they found the blade which doesn’t mean he lost the point for jumping. But for that second touch Im sure there are different perspectives from different people about this touch.
The situation is more complicated than you think. Tldr: it's all about refereeing and negotiating. I was there. What can I say. These 2 referees. They ruined the mood of many fencers and teams that day. I'm pretty sure they had some "offer from up", cause Uzbekistan cadet saber team too was blatantly sued by them in front of fans and coaches. They tried to hide but they clearly sympathized some teams, especially Kuwait, which in this video. Overall, I was the witness of many things "behind the scenes". Those 2 referees and with Tarantino. Tbh I was shocked that corruption and negotiation can be in tourney like this
I have some more footage of other matches I will be posting which involves the same referee. Tbh this match had some really bad calls which is probably why Kuwait won.
Why is FIE not doing anything against these judges?
Look there is no suck thing as (offer up) you don’t have something that proves that a country did sm like this maybe the referee was making a mistake it’s fine
" . . . Uzbekistan cadet saber team too was blatantly sued by them . . ." -- What does that mean? There was a courthouse there?
@@Grandsabre06 If you are having problems with a ref it is up to the fencer to make the hits one light.
I reflect on myself every day. I'm sorry. And thank you for posting the video
선수님 힘내세요❤
너무 신경쓰여서 다시 들어왔네요. 오죽 답답했으면 그러셨을까요…ㅠㅠ 마음이 단단해지는 과정은 어릴 때 누구나 겪지요… 힘 내시길 바랍니다. 추후에 세계적인 선수로 성장하셔서 올림픽에서 뵙길 기대하겠습니다.
@@김오이-n8n 응원해주셔서 정말 감사합니다🥹
👍❤️🔥🔥🔥
You deserve better - your bro is from the MENA region, yet I don't appreciate disrespectful behaviors and I admire those who try to maintain calmness and be respectful.
Yeah, definately something not right there. And no disrespect to the Kuwaits but the Korean team got robbed very clearly. On the flip side I can totally understand the frustration of the Korean team but refusing to shake hands and the massive spat that occurred was definately grounds for a black card.
I agree with this but yes the Korean team was also wrong to not shake hands and give respect to the opposing side after the match even tho there were lots of bad calls during the match where we can totally understand why the Korean team was frustrated.
Many competition rules were violated in this championship. So why there is should be a black card "according to the rules"?🤣
@@Grandsabre06 That's exactly what I said. It was totally wrong for the Korean team to not shake hands.
@@knight6257 Korean coach should have been removed after that first question when he threw his stuff on the ground. Why do you think the Korean kids thought it was proper to throw their stuff later on?
@@craigvandevooren2341To what I heard, the Korean coach was the one who told the players not to shake hand which is giving no sign of respect at all.
Thanks for uploading!!!
No problem!!
When he threw his sword I thought it was a gun shot 😂
Well if it was that probably be very violet🎉🎉🎉
A referee accidentally showed a black card not a red and my opponent put his hand out for a handshake - ref didn't take it back - the kid took advantage of the lack of an experienced ref. I didn't know better. Also, I got an uppercut to my chin in a close-corp battle. I got a yellow card and the other guy nothing. Sometimes we just have to pound sand. SMH.😕
The first call was definitely incorrect. Attack right all day. The second call highlighted in the video was not that disputable. From the video angle it looks like it is either attack no remise parried on the right or parry riposte left. Anyway point left for sure. I agree lately the international referees have been less than adequate, especially in the european games
How can you possibly have that opinion on the second touch. It's very clearly a beat attack from the right.
@@yogohawk13 the angle and quality of the video make it hard to see where on the blade that attack was. assuming he had the intention to beat, to me, from this angle, it looked like the beat was low, therefore parry riposte point left. u might be right and the beat was high enough on the blade to qualify as atac au fer, but hard to tell without a video review
@@ZhongXinabingchilling Attaque con fer from the right is as clear as day. The Kuwaiti fencer's MOVED from the beat on the tip of his blade. You don't need HD to see that.
Dude almost hit his teammate with that swipe
I saw this mach and i can say in this mach referees help to Kuwait team. Thanks of this they won. Referees didn't give lots of touch Korean team. I think if referees gave all touch correctly Korean team maybe won.
I was present at the event and undoubtedly the match was decided in favor of Korea
@@A-tb4ul I think Korean team more stronger than team Kuwait in Fencing and I think in next competition when Korean team fence with team Kuwait, Korean team show them what they can do
The scorers wouldn’t have been this close if there weren’t all those bad calls given out. Which is why Kuwait was able to comeback and win the match.
wait why is the coach just allowed to go up to the fencers on the piste when it isn't break-time...?
And it happened more than once too. If you're curious as well, the coach was none other than Tarantino, former member of the Italian Mens Sabre Team. They really should've policed that though.
This happened a bunch of times in the tournament from the first round all the way to the final. The interesting thing is that there was barely any stopping him until it got into the rounds that were noticed by a lot of people/ref.
i have seen some coaches doing that.. it's funny bc they should know the rules.. sighh
So :
To me the first touch is wrong
The second one seems like the prise de fer is very low on the blade, so giving pary riposte to Kuwait doesn't seem absurd.
Destroying the decor with your blase out of anger absolutely should be black carded
В первую очередь это проблема связаны с организацией такого рода мероприятия. По стандарту таких соревнований видео повторы обязательны по FIE
Да должно быть но если судья такой ничего не поможет
Damn bro really went rage.😮don’t disagree on black cards.never underestimate kuwaits but Koreans are very good
I was a fencer in that competition and the situation was definitely fishy, I definitely thought the Koreans would have won that. Nevertheless Kuwait actually went on to win the finals too
I was there too and I knew something felt fishy during this match. But for the final we had to give it to Kuwait as they made a huge comeback which is probably why they were able to catch up to HKG and take the win.
@@Grandsabre06 yeah we lost the finals, they fenced pretty well towards the end since they got the momentum back. The semis in individuals was also really suspicious the 15-14 bout between the Uzbekistan guy and my teammate was really sketchy
@@AaronLi-m2z He played really well in the match but unfortunately lost because of points that were mistaken by the ref.
Also was the guys name Hugo or something?
@@Grandsabre06 yeah
What was fishy exactly? Two contentious calls out of 87 isn't very bad at all
It’s well known that the Kuwaiti have some referees in their back pocket
Apparently I heard from one of my known refs that the coach and ref actually know each other.
It should be easy for you to provide some evidence then.
@@craigvandevooren2341 view "fencing's biggest open secret" it's pretty widely accepted Kuwait's star Alshamlan is blatantly paying off saber refs. this isn't a contested claim at all, it's just a thing that happens that everyone knows happens
Let me get this straight, all the drama for two incorrect calls? I mean it sucks but you can’t say it’s intentional especially when there’s no video. BTW even if the referee is bad you should always respect your opponent because most of the time it’s ain’t even there fault
2 examples as I wasn’t able to take the video of the whole match. But yes I do agree with you.
Kuwait always bribing the referee. u know💸
And why is Kuwait's coach always on the piste to guide the fencer ?😅
Can't hear blade contact in this video... but it "looks' like a prise de fer from the left handed Korean... I would have given him the touch upon hearing any blade contact. (If no blade contact, I would have said initial attack short, riposte from Kuwaiti (good), couter-riposte from Korean (irrelevant).
Which touch are you talking about, the first or the second?
You don't "prise de fer" by beating down the length of the blade towards the guard which is what it looked like he did.
@@craigvandevooren2341 At this distance and frame rate you cannot make that determination. As you state it, the action is not a prise de fer it would be a parried counterattack. Sadly, you state it incorrectly.
@@georgegonzalez-rivas3787 Even more sadly, you are incorrectly stating what has occurred.
@@craigvandevooren2341 I should believe you instead of my lyin' eyes!
Why the Kuwait's coach getting on the piste several times? Is that legal? Why the referee didn't give any card or at least a warning?
This was one of the problems that occurred many times, and no one stopped him. Seems like he knows his ways around the refs.
Why can the coaches come to the strip after every touch 😂😂
Ikr, why is no one stoping him 😂
First, it's been 30 years since I was heavily involved in fencing (and then mostly in epee). Second, this is not the perspective to be judging good and bad calls by an official (I hate the fact that they started to be called referees rather than "Director Technique"). What may be obvious to someone sitting at the end of a piste cannot necessarily be seen by an official. So I would not care to say whether the official was right or wrong. Third, how did the official describe the actions?
On the first disputed call the narrator says the touch should have gone to the Koreans because there was no blade contact. But watching the video slowly it could be said that the Kuwaiti fencer attacked and missed and the Korean fencer did not counter attack allowing the Kuwaiti to restart his attack, which he did before the Korean initiated his own making, in my view: Attack from the left, no. Reprise of the attack from the left, yes, counter attack from the right. Touch to the left.
For the second disputed touch: Attack from the right, no, counter attack from the left, yes, remise of the attack not in time. Touch left.
As for the display of temper by the Korean fencer, he needs to work on his self control.
As for not shaking hands, bad form. They should remember that it was not the other team that made questionable calls.
Lastly, I miss the days when it was touches against rather than touches for (the person with the most touches lost), double defeats in epee (had a few of those), when the side judges in saber could say "No touch, the side of the blade was used", and saber fencers could fleche!
@@iloveprimitive1-mf8eo Why?
@@iloveprimitive1-mf8eo You made this account just to reply to me? I'm honored.
@iloveprimitive1-mf8eo I see cowardice has struck and you have deleted your post. Bad form.
What do you think about this incident?
Refusal to call AIP outside of box, allowing long holding attacks with jumps and all sorts of other shit combined with the latest tendency to try and seperate every action in the middle to avoid saying simultaneous has destroyed the sport. You've got about 10-20 years until it's removed from Olympics and replaced with other forms of sword sports.
"tendency to try and seperate every action in the middle to avoid saying simultaneous has destroyed the sport." -- +1000. They have dumbed down saber so much that I have trouble watching it now without laughing at "What is this @!#$?"
😢😢😢they should have just put videos 😅
Korean Team??No.1 in the Universe!
Frr, one of the best out there 🙌🏻
watching this one on the side was interesting........
obviously korean touch
So the score what 45-44 or so? So out of >80 calls, the ref (without the help of video) makes one call that is either a missed parry (or perhaps they're saying the foot landed - I'm not sure), and then another call, which to me, does look like a riposte. That's no reason to commit a black card offense. That's not even enough evidence to suggest biased refereeing on it's own. What about the other 43 touches that Kuwait scored?
Im sorry if I wasn’t able to show more evidence as I was also participating in the tournament at the time. Im not that sure but I think the score was 45 -42 to Kuwait.
One probably mistake, and one maybe not mistake out of 87 calls is not particularly bad. Your video strongly implies bias on the refs part (rather than just poor sportsmanship from the Koreans), was there other stuff that convinced you that the refs were biased other than just 2/87 calls you disagreed with?
@@JohnSmith-cx8co As I said I wasn’t able to take all the videos for the entire game. There were more than 2 of those touches that show the bias/mistake of the ref. Also about how you said I didn’t take the video of when Korean showed bad sportsmanship, I kinda already explained it in the video but also the video of the sword throwing was provided in the video. But for everyone that was witnessing the game would have seen how biased the ref was. Im very sorry for not being able to take the video of the whole 85 calls as I was also in the tournament participating. If you think their not biased its your opinion not mine.
@@Grandsabre06 Your video shows 10 of the 87 actions. One of them is probably wrong (though can you clarify, was the call "parry riposte" or "attack-no, attack touche", the Koreans foot is completely down before he hits, so I could see a case for attack-no), and the other one looks like a riposte to me. None of the other 8 actions you showed looked at all ambiguous. From this sample alone - which is 11% of the entire match, the reffing seems fine to me. Maybe you're saying that there were a bunch more bad calls in the match, but I don't get why you wouldn't include those actions rather than the 8 perfectly fine calls that you chose then.
@@JohnSmith-cx8co bro I clearly said this twice about how I was also participating in the tournament, could you please just understand.
i see why korea are pised i mean the match was not fair
Cheat and win. Was That the name of the game?
Sabre is the fastest weapon in fencing, the flech in sabre was banned to make refereeing more "easy" . Thanks to sport science athletes are faster then ever, making refereeing even more difficult. But it is by no means an excuse to behave unsportsmanlike and damaging properties. This goes straight against the core values of the fencing sport. It seems to be a sighn of the time we live in, that it is ok to behave intolerant.
1:36 beat attack KOREA.
한국팀
마지막선수.. 매너가 엉망이네요
펜싱이 신사스포츠라고 알고있는데..
아쉽네요!
1:37 it was a parry
Touch was parry riposte. Korean coach gets one verbal warning, then yellow and could also get black carded if repeated offence. At the end, korean team destroy property and refuse to shake hands, black card 100%. Referee was too nice.
They received a black card in the end.
And here are the results of driven & forced globalization in fencing ! 😊😊 I'm sick of time when this sport was all European made in ....
First question - Maybe that midget in the beginning should have made an attack rather jumping up in the air. The second question is answered by that kid should not have beat down on the blade towards the guard. That's a parry. Beats should be on the top third to make it obvious. Black card was deserved.
It is small segment of mach
For the first touch the ref gave the point because he thought they found the blade which doesn’t mean he lost the point for jumping. But for that second touch Im sure there are different perspectives from different people about this touch.
@@Grandsabre06 He lost the touch by not making a direct attack, but by trying to look cool.
@@craigvandevooren2341 why would jumping be an interruption of the attack?
@@jln009It isn’t, its just creativity of a continuous attack