It depends on how much they will expect Andrew to pay for the vehicle. He is notorious for wanting everything for free under the "free marketing and exposure" reason.
@@DonegalOverlanding Maybe for a marketing / publishing house that is true. AsPW is a one man show with almost no overhead, he plonks his chair down in his garage (or wherever) setup his cam and afterwards upload to YT. Where exactly is the cost?
@@mgdrivesGRY congrats captain obvious. Does not disprove my original comment. AsPW pissed off / alienated so many SA vendors / brands with his ridiculous requests and demands for free, just to "feature their product". It had nothing to do with honest journalism and everything with scoring free loot. This is first hand knowledge in the industry here in SA, not some 2nd hand he said she said. AsPW moved to Aus because he was shunned in SA by leading brands. Fact. They had enough of him, as soon as his email landed in an inbox it was politely declined or just ignored.
I honestly believe that if you made a video series converting the new 2 door Grenadier into a camping overlander, it would be your most popular video series ever! I simply can't wait! What a wonderful time we live in where vehicles like this can be produced and released. Excellent video and breakdown Andrew, I agree in all areas. I'm surprised you didn't didn't mention the aircraft overhead controls! In a totally childish way they make me incredible giddyand excited haha.
Dick BMW driver here - the B58 engine is actually a fantastic engine, reliable and very easily tune-able ! I think it would do wonders in the Grenadier.
Andrew, you have always echoed my sentiments in all thing's offroad, overland and Conservation. I have grown up in the South African Bush with a Forester and Natal Parks Board warden as a father. I drove my first 4x4 ( a Wilys CJ2A owned by Geof Gaisford) in St. Lucia at the tender age of 11. We learned to drive at St. Lucia (Landcruiser FJ45) not long after that. Your opinion on this Ineos Grenadier masterpiece is spot on, along with the classic Range Rover and the Landcruiser 78 troopy you currently own. I am the humble owner of aMahindra Pikup Karoo which feels wonderful to drive and at the price is a great value proposition. However, no live beam axle... nearly there. Thank you for your valuable work, I value each and every piece for your vast experience and great production. I also want an Ineos Grenadier with a sore heart... I use fairly hardcore 4x4's every day in my career and my lifestyle. Keep up the great work! Thank you, best regards, Craig
Sir that Mahindra wont let you down. It’s a solid car. We always had some kind of Mahindra Jeep or Tractor since the 1970’s on the Tea and Coffee Plantations where my Dad worked and I personally have continued the tradition because they are solid and easy to repair/ maintain vehicles. Ive got the new Thar now and thats been inspired by the Wrangler JK. After all Mahindra have been making Jeeps in India since 1947. This pikup karoo is called the Getaway here in India and some of my friends use them as hard working utility vehicles on their plantations and farms. These are very strong vehicles indeed and as you said, great value for money.
Unless the "van" or "2 door" is longer, why not buy the 4 door, and rip out the 2nd row seats? This way you get better access (if you want) to storage on the side there? The reason I would buy a 78 series over a 76 is the length. Now a 78 series, with 4 doors that doesn't look ugly! That would be something! Okay, would want them to add, full time 4wd and equal length axles....
@@andrewm4200 More than likely the van will have a flat floor over the 4 door. And typically the interior side of a van is ideal for storage (where doors would otherwise be on a 4-door). On the 78, besides the longer wheelbase, it also has a higher roof. Making it possible to sit up straight on a bench sit, and have a work table and enough headroom to be comfortable. But spy shots of the Grenadier van looks to have the same wheelbase and roof line as the 4-door.
agreed.. the troopy needs some competition.. it comes out in basic form and the first thing everyone wants to do is fix the inherent issues that toyota could have addressed at the design / factory stage like the rear track width different to the front etc etc. That just reeks of arrogance. Id consider a van version if it didnt need much upgrading and came pretty much ready to use out of the box.
Andrew, am I a Dick for having a Defender TD5 with it's 2.5 litre BMW diesel engine? I keep reading Defender purists prefer the TDi, but I've owned mine from nearly new, driven it 95,000 miles, mainly off-road and that engine has never, ever let me down. Starts every time and pulls like a train. And unlike earlier Defenders, it doesn't drink oil, or belch black smoke. It's tuneable, fast when it needs to be and cruises over 70mph on motorways for hour after hour. The Grenadier is an absolute beauty. It's the Defender most of us were hoping for from Landrover for the 21st Century. I'm selling my Defender and having one.
Great video as usual but a few comments on NGO vehicle use. Firstly the 70 series with front and side bars, and a spares pack can be landed in most developing countries (from TGS, depending on status) for around $45,000 AUD, probably half of the price of a similarly equipped Grenadier so on this alone I don’t believe it’s an NGO contender. INEOS has been engaging with the HALO trust but I see it as a symbiotic marketing exercise as there are very few NGO programmes that could reliably operate and justify the cost of Grenadiers in their fleet. Secondly, driver standards aren’t actually as bad as you make out, all NGO’s strive towards lowering fleet costs and one way of doing this is to have professional drivers and very seldom are vehicles actually abused as opposed to used in very challenging circumstances. If a clutch or syncro ring was damaged, it’s a very simple repair with very simple tools and not a drama which leads me to my third point: If you damage a modern automatic gearbox, invariably with the wrong oil or water ingress, it could literally write off the vehicle in a developing country. It’s just not getting repaired locally and with the best will in the world, Grenadier aren’t going to be there to bail you out. In Australia and the rest of the developed world, not an issue and there’s a chance that the repair and parts manual specific to each grenadier might actually be available not just online but actually on the screen of the car itself. Further to that, the gearbox fitted to the Grenadier is a ZF 8HP which is a fantastic and very strong gearbox but unfortunately takes an oil which is not obtainable in any countries where NGO’s work. Using regular Dexron or ATF oil will destroy it. A very typical NGO scenario might be a failed river crossing or flood rescue where the vehicle has sat all night immersed in water. With a 70 series or old defender it would be a case of change the oils and filters, pop the injectors or glow plugs and spin the engine and job’s a goodun, with the Grenadier the reliance of CAN and the specialist oil required (which is also impossible to fully drain) would see the vehicle unrepairable or undiagnosable very quickly. Another issue with automatics and NGO’s is that anybody who can turn a key can steal a vehicle, you may laugh but manual gearboxes are also a form of theft deterrent and ensure a certain minimum standard of driver before any training takes place. Automatics are also unable to be bump started when someone left the lights on or the starter fails due to dust or water ingress. Manual gearboxes and clutches don’t suddenly fail, automatic gearboxes do, the control systems on automatics are easily damaged by voltage spikes say from when jump starting from a truck or from electrical issues or from oil loss from the plastic filter housings or very thin casings or myriad of cooler pipes and radiators. This means that vital missions either don’t get completed or a team is stuck somewhere dangerous and remote in need of recovery. Additionally, driving in certain slippy conditions with wide throttle openings, especially when bogged with an automatic gearbox and untrained drivers can result in massive wheel speeds that can destroy differentials very quickly as the auto changes up the gears and the open centre diff and probably a front wheel is spinning at over 100mph. If an engine’s not running properly, for any reason, the automatic won’t allow as much progress as a manual gearbox. If you have an issue with the brakes because the traction control has been overworked then a manual gearbox is much safer in mountainous country. Gearbox programmers never get it right and the torque converter should have a button on the dash or gearstick to lock it. An admin vehicle in the city is the only role I would consider for an automatic with an NGO where for maximum availability to the beneficiaries and maximum value for the donors simply knowing that the gearbox isn’t going to be the component that stops vital medical or humanitarian assistance from getting through is reason enough for me never to deploy or advocate for an automatic in the field. Is the ZF 8HP the right gearbox for the Grenadier? Yes, it probably is, just not for an NGO rest of world specGrenadier.
Generally fleet vehicles are leased, so in a leasing plan esp for fleet/ NGO maintenance package would probably be part of the cost which is more than the base lease cost, so I think the cost of the Grenadier cost could be offset by a: size of NGO fleet requirements, models and period box’s ticked as to contract agreement.
@@maverick2242 NGO vehicles are never leased, it’s a very different scenario working in developing countries. Basically all NGO vehicles are bought with donor funding without paying local taxes or import duty and there’s almost always a clause about giving the vehicles to the local government or other aid agency as part of an end user agreement. An exception to this is where vehicles have been got through the UN but this practice is in decline now. Occasionally rental agreements are made with local companies but these aren’t new vehicles and won’t carry NGO plates or have NGO status. It’s very important for NGO’s to have complete control over their movements.
@@tracksonwednesday I wouldn’t know where to start with making videos that people would want to watch and without potentially discrediting an organisation but the guy in the link has extensive experience with NGO vehicles and also makes many valid points regarding the Grenadier. ua-cam.com/play/PLYy63QP5F3c4QWhU4eE4xMXrU7UVoslCg.html
Andrew, I really appreciate the hot/cold/hot sincerity of your review and only a hint of marketing; it's thorough and instructive, and matches real-world practicality.
Love the straight forward, direct rundown of the Grenadier. It's just like I'm sitting at the table across from you as you review the details... not listening to some salesman.
madrx2 yeah I think your right, but all those buttons make them look dated as well, I actually don’t mind the wood grain but that’s a matter of opinion I guess, I would like to see the Grenadier interior cleaned up a bit but again it’s very subjective
I have ordered my Grenadier. My clever guru mate has also designed a camper for the back... Sure, we do need exact sizes ... but a tweak or two with those and we will be in like a robbers dog! The team made some drawers, proved the design on a 2016 VW Caravelle and with a tweak or three - serious mischief is planned! I recently did 24K around Aust in the VW. My wife passed that first version with full marks. THANK YOU Andrew. Your opinions are greatly appreciated.
I was out in a 2b grenadier prototype a couple of weeks ago. I was quite impressed. Engine and gearbox were far better than I was expecting. It’ll make an excellent overlander.
That ZF 8 speed makes and engine its hooked up to shine. I’ve owned three of them and they excel in every area. But the low end torque tuning of the BMW in-line six with it is going to be killer.
Such a unbiased legend , I am pretty sure he will be bashed by marketing crappy guys . Lucky to have a legend and learn from him. Salute and respect to Andrew
Absolute truth on the quality of the BMW engine, it has also been used widely as a boat engine. Yanmar is one of the brands that used the BMW engine for this. They ran the stock engine on 300bhp, obviously because a marine engine can run bigger numbers due to less cooling issues. It's a quality engine that can easily provide the required qualities for a proper 4wd.
Loving his comments on the B58 I6 as he sits before a Buick-engined Range Rover. And Magna Steyr helping with its development. Seemed to work for the G-wagen. Can't wait to see him get his hands on one and wring its neck. Great vid, as always
Hello Andrew, I think the major reason why NGOs go for manual gearboxes is that they are more reliable in the sense that if you have a challenge with the gearbox or the clutch in a remote area in places like Africa( I am actually from Ghana) it is relatively easy for the village mechanic to do something about the vehicle to allow you to drive home and later to an accredited service station. With automatics, very few mechanics can actually help you out on the field. You mostly will have to be towed to a service centre( more inconvenience and expensive)
Listen to your videos is like listen to my own heart if it comes to offroad vehicles :-D. I really, really (really, really...) hope, that you will be one of the first in Australia Ineos will give his Grenadier for a testdrive. About 260.000 (or even more) people are just waiting to see you driving this truck!
G'day Andrew, I do understand that the Suzuki Jimny/Sierra is only a Tiny 4X4 & it is overlooked very often but when it comes to being a proper 4X4 it ticks the boxes. Solid F&R axels, separate transfer box etc, I know its only a baby in comparison to the Landcruiser but good things come in small package's, they can go most places the big boys go & a lot of places the larger 4X4 just cant fit. We have owned 5 so far buying our first in 1980 it was a LJ80V we cut our teeth with it up in the NT & heaps of black soil plans, our present one is a 2011 Jimny anyway they are just fun, fun & more fun Mate.
Help me obi wan you're my only hope! Nearly all of us off road enthusiasts want this the be a success and it's ticking a lot of boxes. Thank you Andrew for this video, excellent food for thought and I look forward to seeing more from you on this vehicle. I am seriously interested, my Hilux knows I'm up to something .. can't wait. The real test will be the Australian outback!
The Gladiator is a bit of a joke. It features everything that's bad about the Wrangler range, with nothing added to make it any good. All double-cabs have a weakness where the chassis flexes behind the cab. In the case of the Gladiator, it's catastrophically weak.
Hello Andrew, Dick here. While my overland rig is an 80 Series (its a keeper), my daily is an X5 3.0d. I've never ever thought of my X5 as a "Pretend off-road vehicle". It's an on-road SUV. Period! Anyone claiming it's an off-road vehicle (beyond driving on gravel roads), are delusional. Having said that, even with its 20" RF tyres, it did well without getting bogged tacking the Birubi Point end of Stockton Beach/Dune. Though nowhere near as easily nor effortlessly as my 80 series does. I won't even think at taking the X5 at the Stockton end (South) of the beach. The softer sand there will swallow the X5 whole.
I'm with you, nobody buys an X5 for off-roading, it's a sure-footed road/gravel car. But the M57 is an exceptional engine, light, powerful, tunable, tons of torque, relatively easy to work on etc. Will be a good choice in the Grenadier in my opinion.
@@stevep8773 Surprisingly it does. But typical German car, the stalk is on the wrong side of the steering wheel. That's probably why most BMW drivers can't find it. 😜
The B58 engine and ZF transmission are both excellent, funnily enough, the same engine and transmission ARE in a Toyota, the Supra, have a quick test drive of an X3 M40i, you will be blown away Andrew
I have set a rule for myself when assessing a car's reliability. Every car is unreliable unless proven otherwise. I can't see myself spending money on a new brand until I see how it goes for early adapters.
Great insightful video as always. When the Grenadier project was launched I was very excited about it. But then when I got used to the new defender and found out it was roughly the same price, my interest dwindled. I'm more interested again now I've heard about the van variant and had a play around on the configurator. You can get BF Goodrich tyres from the factory on 17" wheels too. True what you said about X5's, I saw one get stuck in a car park because an inch of snow fell in Vancouver.
Agreed. 100%. - Meaning, IF I had the finances I would buy a Grenadier in a heartbeat! I hope you buy one because I would love to learn what you would do to it, equip it, as well as learning your extended opinion about it. Keeping my fingers crossed it will happen.
AUD100k otr for the shell version . Just as I anticipated , it'll be nearly 140 sexed up . If it faults and has lousy support , it'll be a stillbirth in Oz . Distributors of cars in Oz don't like keeping parts or doing warranty work .
We share our concerns. Even though I am here to watch the review, every fibre of my being warns me against sinking my dough into this vehicle, at least not at this early stage.
Couldn't agree more regarding auto gearbox, all large tractors and new lorries use them now. I wouldn't go back. There is talk in the UK of them offering a 5 door VAN! With just two seats, better access, that's my pick. Double cab, all depends on rear length for me, at present it looks like it's going to be too short. Nice points of view as always, and I'd love to see you with one.👍
@@dav4x487 they could, but from what I have seen of trays, it's a bugger to hitch your trailer, and that's something I do everyday as a fencing contractor.
Thank you Andrew, looking forward to your unbiased future assessment. Special thanks also to your supporting Off Road History Museum and Sheikh Hamad bin Hamdan Al Nahyan.
I honestly love the Ineos. We are getting it here in the United States as well. I already recently picked up a new Lexus GX460 ( Land Cruiser Prado ). But feel like I should have waited for this one instead!
Andrew, I admire your enthusiasm. Mine has dwindled with each subsequent press release. It's the pragmatist in me I admit. I see many missing details glossed over with marketing BS.
Also, really enjoyed checking out your videos, which I just discovered today. If nothing else the Grenadier is a great looking vehicle, and a fresh alternative look for a land with many Jeeps.
I prefer the 5 door station wagon as overland vehicle for my family. Two rooftop tents enables sleeping places for the 4 of us. 270 awning, Engel fridge, Goalzero lithium battery and some solar panels and we are ready to go. We love to travel simple and light as this is what overlanding is about. Less stuff, more travel to nice places. Until then I crave my Lexus LX470 with 2UZ-FE V8 engine. Life is good !
This! This is your finest video mate. You have nailed it in every aspect. I could not agree more. Eg 80 series, etc. well said well done. (Im gunna forgive the coffee machine in the troopie build now ;)
Apparently they've had issue after issue with those things. From electrical to mechanical. They should have just updated the land rover isuzu combo to another in-house built dream machine such as that
This was an extremely informative and comprehensive video addressing many important points to the utilitarian/off-road vehicle owner and user, described clearly and really piqued my interest. You have a new subscriber!
Should and would are two different things. Even though I dislike most vehicles made by Toyota, due to very poor experience, the two models I would not mind owning are the LC 80 and the 70 series. However, the 70 is a very basic vehicle and it does not comply with safety or/and emission regulations in many countries, hence the reason they will not be sold worldwide. In fact if this was feasible the price of these vehicles was more affordable and the manufacturer would be interested in further developing the range and continue selling it.
@@hughmarcus1 Yep, same story with the USA. You cannot get the Landcruiser there because of emissions standards. Here in South Africa we're still busy building new coal fired power stations, so I guess pollution isn't a very important issue to our leaders. You can drive an old diesel belching black smoke with impunity here...
I would imagine NGO’s and others buy manuals because clutches and manual transmissions are cheaper to replace and repair than autos? At any rate, I cannot WAIT to see the Ineos in person!
For NGOs in Africa, it'll be a case of servicing. In Africa (outside of SA) manual transmissions are far, far more common than autos, so pretty much any bush mechanic can fix up a manual landcruiser, but will be unlikely to have the parts and expertise in autos. That's also part of the reason behind the absolute dominance of Toyota in the African NGO sector. You can go to the most remote village far in the highlands of god-knows-where and you absolutely will find someone who can fix a 70 series (same applies in Aus too, hence govt and farmers using them in remote areas). I think this is where Ineos will fall over and where the BMW engine / box in paticular could be an issue for corporate users like NGOs and remote mining ops. If I had unlimited money I'd definitely buy a 70 series troopy, but since I'm not dodging bullets in the DRC I'd give myself the luxury of having an auto fitted.
That would have been my choice too, I wish the R2.8 wasn't so expensive. But for grenadier they need a petrol variant, that's why the BWM option makes sense much higher parts sharing, I'm sure there is already good experience connecting that gearbox to that engine too.
Cummins or Isuzu would have been brilliant choices. II wouldn't trust a modern BMW engine to get me to the shops and back without shitting itself. What hope is it going to have in places like outback Australia or Africa?
Too heavy and probably does not fit the image the Grenadier is trying to achieve. It's most likely why (amongst other things) they choose a BMW engine, since Europeans tend to be brand snobs on makes outside their continent.
Hi Andrew. Please please consider meeting up with Dan Grec from "The Road Chose Me". Even if it's just the 2 of you sharing a campfire for one evening and talking about all things overlanding. A 30-45 min exchange between the 2 of you would be extremely interesting. If you can't get him on UA-cam, perhaps consider a podcast? Food for thought. I greatly appreciate your work, Andrew. Cheers
Your comment on BMW driver’s! That is surely a universally held opinion as it holds sway over here in the UK. And in SA where my numerous relatives live. Bravo for your succinct opinion 😅
The BMW engines are awesome. I have owned two B58 petrol versions (1 and 3 series, no X :) ) and have driven the diesel for two weeks in a 5 series and they are the best of the best when it comes to engines. If that makes me a dick then so be it!
I’ve driven off road here in Wales for decades, plus I also own a BMW 530d tourer and from my experience the 3 litre straight six engine mated to the ZF 8 speed auto are a great combination and I have no doubts it’ll be a big hit in the Grenadier.
I've had three BMWs, straight 6 3 series, V8 750 and Turbo V8 X5. Lots of good points but the reality is I've not once had an issue with a BMW engine. All three cars have been super reliable. Though I don't run my X5 down the bush roads, that is not the purpose of the X5. I do run it in 10" plus of snow on roads a few times a year and its perfection (with the right tires.) I do have an off roader, unlike overland trucks, my truck is a work horse (f150 Tremor). I've pulled cars out of the way with a strap when responding to a fire, used it to run down the beach in a rescue, and plow through snow when nothing else would make it. Cost is key, you have to have a tough easy to fix truck not a fancy truck if you plan to beat it up. The Grenadier is cool but will be interesting to see it becomes the new G550 or true off road truck. You will sell more off road looking street trucks though.
The thing I worry the most is post purchase servicing. If they have to ship it back to a factory from whatever dealer you pick it up from, it's gonna be a massive pain. Also how do they plan on dealing with spare parts? Can you call them up and get whatever you need? do they have any compatibility with parts already on the market? I just worry about buying into a vehicle system that doesn't have a well established parts system.
@@chanceym6000 Yeah, he mentioned Bosch would service it. Didn't mention spare parts or anything like that. If I get a dent on the door, are they going to charge a kidney to get a new one? Just because the mechanical is well established doesn't mean every other part is.
The two door version will actually have 4 doors but no rear seats. So similar to the U.K. commercial Defender. I’m testing one on the 27th of this month. I will be seriously thinking about purchasing one for Overlanding as soon as they come out. I actually can’t wait!
The main thing I find disappointing about the Grenadier (and it's not really something Ineos can be blamed for) is that it's only ever likely to be a "specialist" vehicle, which means an average person is never likely to be able to pick one up for a modest price, after it's been sold by the MOD or a utility company. In 20 year's time, if we're still allowed to drive petrol/diesel cars, all the new Defenders will be ancient history, the Grenadier will be a "unicorn" and the rest of us will still be buying and rebuilding Tdi and TD5 Defenders.
The Grenadier is not built for ‘the average person’ any more than the old Defender was. These are vehicles designed to be worked by businesses that can make use of tax reliefs and reclaim the VAT, although the initial production will split relatively equally between commercial and consumer models. The consumer/private-buyer market is fickle and sensitive to relative incomes. With an imminent recession it is likely that JLR and Grenadier non-commercials will be hit quite hard and quite soon.
@@hedydd2 I guarantee you'll never see a Utility company or a farmer buy a Grenadier - unless it's bought by a farmer or exec' who especially wants one. Grenadiers are only ever going to be the "oddball alternative" to the G-Wagon for footballers and rich soccer-moms.
@@SiCrewe Your ‘guarantee’ is worth what? Absolutely less than nothing. Once the four door pickup is launched to supplement the two existing van commercials and production capacity is ramped up, farmers and utility companies will buy a significant proportion of units, just as they did with the always premium priced LR Defender and Series models before them. The value for money proposition is compelling when you can buy three four door commercial Grenadiers, nicely equipped, for the price of one G-Class [£50k vs £150k]. Or a base model Grenadier for only £5k more than the probable price of a V6 Ford Ranger.
Good words/video Andrew, 4wds keep getting more and more expensive...i cant justify the price in most cases but if reliable and refined this is an exception
GREAT VIDEO Andrew ,well explained and i understood from watching the main videos from Ineos themselves, pricing is good for a vehicle engineered and robustly built as it is, of course time will tell, the Australian and Canadian dollar are pretty on par with each other, so I'd say it won't be to different we will have to wait a bit longer, later 2023 which allows me time to save more shekels for a down payment, i understand the work its takes in establishing dealer and service networks having worked for GM/Volvo and Komatsu industrial equipment here in Canada, things will come together in time and the buyers of these vehicles understand this in most cases, thx you very much once again 👍
@@tripleseven8361 is because North America has the highest aid quality standards in the world and if it was offered hereit would be so choked out it would be under powered compared to the rest of them globally
Excellent synopsis sir! You bring a much needed intellectualism to Overlanding. Looking forward to seeing what this will cost in USA. I also love the Troopy, so sad Toyota gave up on the solid front axle. In total agreement on the 80 Series. Prices have been rising on them here.
My two cents on NGOs and Autos, the cost of converting the likes of a 70 series to an auto is far greater than the reduced life span. Secondly, in remote areas mechanics may have a shot at fixing a manual transmission, the same can not be said for an auto.
Yeah it's a cost benefit thing for sure. The vehicle is going to kick the bucket due to other reasons long before a manual gearbox is going to die (even with all the abuse). This is especially true in many mines where increased corrosion will chew through the chassis faster than any of the internal parts will wear out. Plenty of underground mines go through LVs faster than they turn over staff.
I was a mechanic for a construction company in South Africa. Replaced many clutches, but the worst was the one guy who kept labouring an Isuzu kb 280 doing 30 km/h in fifth gear until the whole differential was destroyed. Agreed, that wouldn't be possible with an automatic. Here in South Africa, companies don't buy automatics for their staff at all. Exception, the rubbish bin trucks are auto boxes to avoid the wear and tear of constant stop starts. Golden Arrow bus company also use automatic buses in order to avoid unnecessary wear.
I don't dispute that the Zf8 isn't bullet proof, does it come out in any utility vehicles from factory though? Or are we back at square one having to convert a perfectly good manual transmission to a Zf8, achieving what in the process? A negligible longer life, the price tag of a Zf8 plus install costs? Im struggling to see the advatanges Andrew is trying to highlight....
Manual gearboxes in underground mining are preferred because there's no slip once in gear thus no running away downhill and all driving underground is up/downhill.
@@RudolfD yes lockup torque converters exist, but its not as simple as a manual gearbox in 4L. Easy towing of vehicles and push starting are also two advantages of the manual underground where the environment is often very corrosive and wiring to starter motors and relays fail fairly often.
The're a piece of mild steel plate that is screwed over the gear stick and bolted to the floor with a cutout pattern that only allows you to be able to select 1,2 gear and R
All excellent points. It’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out. Either way, (here in the U.S.) I’ll be forced to simply watch from afar. Ugh!...
I have little faith that the Grenadier will ever be an affordable platform in the U.S. It’s probably going to be even less available here than the Troopy. It will be possible to get one I suppose, but (like the Troopy) finding affordable parts and bolt-on accessories would be all but impossible.
I'm in California,.What you say is so true about IFS. My 08 3500HD Silverado will be swapped soon to a solid axle to toughen my off-road capabilities. Great insight on the Ineous
I've always love going offroad. Starting with trailbikes, then to 4WDs when old enough to get my drivers license. The first 4WD I bought (in 2001) was a 2nd hand manual NJ Pajero. I was and still am a fan of Pajeros. I'm a fan of the Pajero's Super-select 4WD system. 👌 I love that car, even though people used to tease me for it not having a solid axle front-end. 😁And as one does, the more I got into 4WDing and it's lifestyle, the more I got to meet like minded people through forums and clubs. And when it came to gearbox type recommendations, to my surprised, most recommended an auto. I was expecting, the seasoned and hardcore off-roaders will make comments like "I'm a man, only manual for me" or "autos are for sissies" or "manuals are tougher than autos", you get the picture. But no, the majority (approx 90%) recommended to go with an auto. The usual reasons are the obvious ones, like being able to keep the momentum when changing gears in a steep rock crawl, or through bog holes/deep water crossings etc. So a few years later when I traded in my NJ to the NL, I got an auto. And it definitely was a more relaxed 4WD experience all round, particularly climbing up dunes etc.
Thanks Andrew. So wish to call you Dr Andrew, but Uncle Andrew will do for now, (as I talk about you with my 4yo) but thank you for such a great and in-depth review, and sharing your deep Deep knowledge with us
Very sensible points. I've just watched a British car channel take it over some very muddy quarry and it handled very well. I suspect this car will become very popular. In terms of add-ons, you didn't mention the very clever modular system that allows for stuff to be attached to the sides of the vehicle securely. This in particular would be useful in Aus and the African continent. For example, fuel and water.
I am on the early list for deposits, and will do it just to get the option. $65k US is too expensive for what I need/want. I was hoping to get a base 4-door wagon for $50k, but that's probably wishful thinking. We'll see.
Interesting, last night my dad asked me if I have heard anything about them lately. I said as far as I know they are moving along with the vehicle. But I haven't followed the news in months. Only saw a article pop up here and there. Coincidence, I think not. Edit: Hopefully Andrew gets one. 😁
You have warmed to the grenadier Andrew,and you are right about auto v manual,fitted a mazda 3.5 turbo engine to a defender and it needed an auto to protect the drive train.It was one hell of an engine
Sadly one of the best Overland vehicles that we don't get in Australia is the Ram Power Wagon. Solid Axles, standard diff locks with Dana 60's and huge torque plus unbelievable comfort.
I have personally seen the new grenadier I was working near by and had quick sneaky look. I think these will be game changer for Oz. Very much and a cross between g-waggon and Defender but has much more cabin space.
Yeah I haven't heard of inherent issues with the bmw six, except for vanos failure and the turbos eating themselves, but the cars are still unreliable. I guess it depends on if the plumbing and electrical crap from bmw is carried over.
@@tedhibbard7110 I do hear they're fantastic when new. But they say to always lease a German vehicle because eventually the maintenance gets expensive.
Hehehe, 10-15 years. Ah, no. The Germans passed environmental laws decreeing that all auto plastics be biodegradable. Guess what happens when hot and wet? My BMW V8 needs total coolant/oil resealing every 5 years. I only drive 10k miles/year which is typical for a lifestyle 4x4.
So excited about this vehicle. Others have said it, but it’s the Defender Land Rover should have made. Will it sell - yes. Simply, there’s a market for the tough, capable, modern vehicle which delivers. Again, the Defender Land Rover could and should have made. Yes it’ll be expensive. But as you’ve said, the quality of the mechanical parts, including the solid axles cost money. Everything points to this promising to be a superb off-road vehicle dressed in unpretentious, retro clothing. I hope they make the LWB, 2-door van as well - it’ll be the perfect next-gen overlanding platform. Great video ASPW… Hope Ineos have the foresight to trust and sponsor you to showcase their vehicle..
You have seen that the cooler of the Grenadier is in front of the front axle? Unprotected. You can't protect it with a underbody protection (reduces the cooling which is already at its limit) and it will be full of mud (reducing the cooling again) when it digs into mud for the first time. You may protect it from a tree stump by a horizontal bar, but it doesn't protect you from the limb drilling into the cooler. Same at the back, where the exhaust is under the rear bar, just protected my a very thin plate. And the fuel tank lurks out of the latter frame. The space in the back is less than in a Defender or Toyota and I can't imagine how to place camping interior into it without removing the rear sets. Will it be possible to mount a pop-up-roof on it, looking at the roof dashboard? And why in the hell there are lashing bars at the doors (making more work, more cost and more holes)? What will you put there when? If something which hangs on the doors will get caught by trees, limbs, etc. while driving through the woods, what will happen with the doors? For me it is not important to see experts driving the Grenadier up the Schoeckl hill in Austria but if it forgives mistakes by normal drivers. I have doubts about that.
@@BubblesTheCat1 Hmmm...depends. Suspension, axles etc. are not limited and can be as good as others. In fact I prefer coil springs above leaf springs when it goes off road. Regarding the engine you might be right, but we should not compare engines from the 80's or 90' (which were the best engines, matured and no environmental protection technology which often causes problems today) with engines from today. You never get these old engines back, so every manufacturer has to cope with that. A Toyota and also an Ineos. And also Toyota has some weak points, if I think about some gearboxes or the wheel studs... However, the Grenadier has any chance to proof that is is robust. If you look at the suspension and the bars and the joints you see that at least the prototypes are developed with robustnes in mind. They are very strong and thick. And then you know where the (high) weight comes from (which is drawback again).
@@LRAWo Yeah, I agree with you, time will tell, but personally I would rather take my gamble with my money on the Cruiser. Maybe if the Grenade had been out for a couple of years, and proven itself. I for one wouldn't have peace of mind doing the Canning Stock road with a BMW engine and all it's crappy plastics and electronics.
Why not automatic transmission? For the same reason you don't want air suspension. This is an electronically controlled auto box. Even if it was completely mechanical, you don't want to get stuck in the middle of nowhere due to failure in your transmission. In a manual gear box even if you lost one of the gears you can, usually, manage somehow. Therefore, it is best if clients are given the option to choose. As to the BMW engine, it may be good but then again, it is loaded with electronics. For such application you need an "agriculture engine" i.e. as simple as possible.
Another great video Andrew, love ya stuff mate and the especially the term "no mechanical sympathy" that's a terminology I've been searching for, for a long time. Puts a lot of drivers/operators in a nut shell👍
I really want to take this for a test drive. I’m very excited for this 4wd, I had a gq (well 2 actually), currently have a 100 series LC and haven’t been excited about any new 4wd’s until I saw this one. Just have to wait for the dual cab. Also FYI I was told at the National 4x4 show in Brisbane that ARB are talking about supplying long range fuel tanks for them, which could potentially indicate that other add on’s may follow.
I have a few thoughts I'd like you to consider regarding automatic transmissions. when you mention its advantages of comfort, constant torque, and refined control that preserves other parts of the vehicle, I agree with you. and also that the automatic transmission, performs better than the manual, without a shadow of a doubt. in addition most automatic transmissions have manual gear control option, so basically you have a manual and automatic transmission in one, in the hands of an experienced driver, it's an unbeatable duo. but here comes my considerations, it all comes at a price, and when we put it together with inexperienced drivers, that's where it gets hazy. automatic transmissions usually need auxiliary cooling systems, sometimes have external radiators, sometimes inside the gearbox itself, and sometimes integrated into the vehicle's cooling system, which greatly increases the complexity and interdependence of systems, in fact, most of the problems with automatic transmissions is due to overheating, which is very rare in manuals. All modern automatic transmissions need a control module, and are usually integrated into the vehicle's ecu, which again increases systems dependency and complexity, your transmission may be ok but not shifting due to problems elsewhere. add these two items to a driver who doesn't know how to drive an automatic transmission: wrong gear selection, holding the car uphill with the accelerator instead of the brake etc. to heavy trail environments with constant crossing of flooded sections and you have enormous potential of failure and in case of electrical emergency, you can not make the car start in stride. there are many disadvantages for REALLY difficult terrain. Add to this the fact that automatic transmissions have a higher maintenance cost, a higher acquisition cost, and a cost per kilometer driven generally 20% higher.(here the disadvantages of torque converter, it loose energy to friction to create comfort) i think all these facts contribute to offroad people, still today, prefer manual over auto... I believe that for a touring/tourer vehicle autos it really is the best option, but for overlanding and hard long mud expeditions vehicles, manual is the choice.
Thanks for a great overview. Very interesting vehicle. My only gripe with it was the engine, but not because of BMW owners - because of reliability and parts / service costs. I've owned a couple of BMWs and they were nightmares mechanically - unreliable and expensive to fix. I have never had such experience with the Japanese cars I've owned - more reliable and cheaper to service. For an overland vehicle I think it's even more of a problem. Then there's the theory that the Euro engines don't fare so well in hot and dusty environments. I think they would have done much better to go Japanese, or even Korean..
Agreed, I’ve had some bmw products and they can be very cheaply made, overly complicated (because of emissions regs) and tightly packaged which makes working on them a nightmare.
Was watching a reliability index video just last week. Basically German and British engines are the most unreliable. It was a British video based on British warranty claims.
I've had my 2001 Defender 90 TD5 with its BMW engine since 2010. I've driven it over 40,000 miles and it currently has 97,000 miles on the clock. I bought it in the UK and drove it to Portugal, where I've lived since 2013. It's been back and forth 3 times. I live in the hot, dusty mountains of Alentejo, where I've basically used it to trek around these mountains and as a motorised wheel barrow, lugging sand, cement and concrete blocks, whilst I renovate my home. That TD5 engine has never missed a beat. It starts first time in all weather and will cruise, albeit VERY noisily, literally for hours on end along the motorways of Spain at 80 miles an hour. People who criticise BMW engined Defenders, generally have no actual experience of owning or driving one. Diehard purists with some religious attachment to their beloved, if apparently untuneable, 200 and 300 tdi's. I have no idea if my TD5 is some kind of rare anomoly. I have zero mechanical knowledge. I have it serviced annually. I get it fixed, when some crappy LR bit breaks. But it's the cheapest car I've ever had to maintain and those bits are ridiculously cheap. The majority of my fellow Defender owners have always turned your noses up at the TD5, but mine has always been an absolute beauty for me. The only car I've ever owned that makes me smile, every time I drive it. Oh, and the Grenadier is a work of art and my dream car.
@@ianworley8169 That's good to hear you've had a good experience with BMW engines. My experience with BMW was not in a 4WD or diesel, but a E90 sedan. After only 50,000 some things started to go wrong that were expensive. It was a few years ago but from memory something to do with cylinder head cover, that was about $2K to fix - the mechanic had built his business around this issue with the E90, and had a whole pile of the failed parts from other E90s when I dropped the car off. Another $1K for a failed power steering pump. At the time I was surprised as I'd always thought that with German autos like BMW and Benz you pay a premium, but you get good quality and reliability. I then did some research, and found they're actually generally a lot less reliable than Japanese cars. I then came across some articles that were of the opinion that German cars (generally), are engineering masterpieces, but often over complicated and therefore with more things to go wrong. In contrast Japanese auto engineering approach (generally) is more simple and robust (albeit less elegant) and therefore less likely to fail. And I think this certainly rings true when you look at reliability stats for Japanese (and Korean) auto brands vs. most others. I also thought about some of the other Japanese products I own, like my Seiko mechanical watch, and the Japanese quality / value rings true there too. Since then (with cars at least), I will only buy Japanese. I know my comments are quite generalized, and not specific to the engine in the Grenadier (which may indeed be very reliable) - mine was more of a general comment on Japanese vs German engineering reliability. I just got burnt once and found it difficult to trust them again. Agreed, the Grenadier does look great, and I hope it's BMW engine proves me wrong ;)
Thank u Andrew @Ineos Hope you Listen to Andrew You can never beat someone that as decade of experience. I am Only 2 years yonger the Andrew and had just as many toyota landcruiser if not more then Andrew with over 20 years living on the road here in Australia and still own a Landcruiser today My point is if you can just equal the Landcruiser It be good to see New 4wd manufacturer Here in Australia with 4wd qualitie product I feel we only have Toyota That can meet Australia outback roads form the assembly line. Thank u Again Andrew Take Care Mate.
Andrew I work with BMW's every day and all I can say is around 100,000klms timing chains, injectors, glow plugs and modules, cooling systems, water pumps, ignition systems, maniolds, EGR systems, constant major oil leaks etc etc, just name a few problems. Looking at it, it's just got the engine and gearbox out of the X5, even the gearstick is out of a BMW. They do not withstand punishment or neglect. This thing will just end up the poor man's G-wagon and be hauling kids round the city. Unortunately no "real" Aussie 4wder's will buy it. It's a shame, for a while I thought it could be the next proper Defender.
Awesome analysis I love the way you deduce the variables and arrive at such a considered conclusion. I’d buy a two door because my wife and I camp, I go off-road to rural lands and she drives to the shops!! Bingo but $80k plus hmmm 🤔
There’s a good reason why those of us in construction, ranching, farming, mining etc are a bit hard on vehicles. They work for us, we don’t work for them. They’re a tool. We love them…but we want them tough.
Of the tyres that you can spec on your Ineos Grenadier direct from the factory I believe the road going ones are Bridgestone and the off road are BF Goodrich Not sure you’ll like either, but atleast with the 17 “ or 18” wheels there will be plenty of others available in your local markets etc
It will be interesting to see how the Grenadier stacks up with real people. It's looking very promising so far for someone who wants a durable live axle vehicle and doesn't want a Toyota. Hopefully it's doesn't become know as the grenade.
Good day Sir. Just some info on the Patrols shown, it is GQ (Y60) then GU as mentioned however a GU is the Y61 and then the last two are both Y62's 2nd one just a face lift, might as well call the last one Y62 series 2 as in the GU's (Y61) Where they went from a series 1 to series 4 as they got face lifts and newer engines. Just mentioning as some of your viewers might get confused. Regards Dewald from South Africa.
![Ineos Grenadier - Why it's not the perfect 4wd! [2022]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cTDVWaLJfM8/mqdefault.jpg)
So the question Andrew is have they reached out to you for an in-depth trial to publish on your channel? They'd be fools not to!
It depends on how much they will expect Andrew to pay for the vehicle. He is notorious for wanting everything for free under the "free marketing and exposure" reason.
@@Rustie_za I think you need to reconsider what the word "free" means. Creating professional content and marketing is far from free.
@@DonegalOverlanding Maybe for a marketing / publishing house that is true. AsPW is a one man show with almost no overhead, he plonks his chair down in his garage (or wherever) setup his cam and afterwards upload to YT. Where exactly is the cost?
@@Rustie_za In having done that several years consistantly to reach the numbers he does with "only setting up his cam and uploading it" :)
@@mgdrivesGRY congrats captain obvious. Does not disprove my original comment. AsPW pissed off / alienated so many SA vendors / brands with his ridiculous requests and demands for free, just to "feature their product". It had nothing to do with honest journalism and everything with scoring free loot. This is first hand knowledge in the industry here in SA, not some 2nd hand he said she said. AsPW moved to Aus because he was shunned in SA by leading brands. Fact. They had enough of him, as soon as his email landed in an inbox it was politely declined or just ignored.
I honestly believe that if you made a video series converting the new 2 door Grenadier into a camping overlander, it would be your most popular video series ever! I simply can't wait! What a wonderful time we live in where vehicles like this can be produced and released. Excellent video and breakdown Andrew, I agree in all areas. I'm surprised you didn't didn't mention the aircraft overhead controls! In a totally childish way they make me incredible giddyand excited haha.
Dick BMW driver here - the B58 engine is actually a fantastic engine, reliable and very easily tune-able ! I think it would do wonders in the Grenadier.
Touche. Well done.
Douche. Well done.
Thanks Richard.
I agree its an epic engine
Love the B58 and the ZF 8-Speed combo.
I totally love that Rangie in the background must be one of the coolest vehicles ever made!
If he was smart it would have been an older series one. He had a defender for a while-- must have got rid of it to buy Rangie.
Andrew, you have always echoed my sentiments in all thing's offroad, overland and Conservation. I have grown up in the South African Bush with a Forester and Natal Parks Board warden as a father. I drove my first 4x4 ( a Wilys CJ2A owned by Geof Gaisford) in St. Lucia at the tender age of 11. We learned to drive at St. Lucia (Landcruiser FJ45) not long after that. Your opinion on this Ineos Grenadier masterpiece is spot on, along with the classic Range Rover and the Landcruiser 78 troopy you currently own. I am the humble owner of aMahindra Pikup Karoo which feels wonderful to drive and at the price is a great value proposition. However, no live beam axle... nearly there. Thank you for your valuable work, I value each and every piece for your vast experience and great production. I also want an Ineos Grenadier with a sore heart... I use fairly hardcore 4x4's every day in my career and my lifestyle. Keep up the great work! Thank you, best regards, Craig
Sir that Mahindra wont let you down. It’s a solid car. We always had some kind of Mahindra Jeep or Tractor since the 1970’s on the Tea and Coffee Plantations where my Dad worked and I personally have continued the tradition because they are solid and easy to repair/ maintain vehicles. Ive got the new Thar now and thats been inspired by the Wrangler JK. After all Mahindra have been making Jeeps in India since 1947. This pikup karoo is called the Getaway here in India and some of my friends use them as hard working utility vehicles on their plantations and farms. These are very strong vehicles indeed and as you said, great value for money.
I tend to agree Andrew, a 2 door van variant would be hard to pass up if everything else stacks up. Great video, thanks.
The Alu-Cab Roof Top conversation they have for the Defender might even fit on it. 😁
Unless the "van" or "2 door" is longer, why not buy the 4 door, and rip out the 2nd row seats? This way you get better access (if you want) to storage on the side there? The reason I would buy a 78 series over a 76 is the length. Now a 78 series, with 4 doors that doesn't look ugly! That would be something! Okay, would want them to add, full time 4wd and equal length axles....
@@andrewm4200 More than likely the van will have a flat floor over the 4 door. And typically the interior side of a van is ideal for storage (where doors would otherwise be on a 4-door). On the 78, besides the longer wheelbase, it also has a higher roof. Making it possible to sit up straight on a bench sit, and have a work table and enough headroom to be comfortable. But spy shots of the Grenadier van looks to have the same wheelbase and roof line as the 4-door.
agreed.. the troopy needs some competition.. it comes out in basic form and the first thing everyone wants to do is fix the inherent issues that toyota could have addressed at the design / factory stage like the rear track width different to the front etc etc. That just reeks of arrogance. Id consider a van version if it didnt need much upgrading and came pretty much ready to use out of the box.
Andrew, am I a Dick for having a Defender TD5 with it's 2.5 litre BMW diesel engine? I keep reading Defender purists prefer the TDi, but I've owned mine from nearly new, driven it 95,000 miles, mainly off-road and that engine has never, ever let me down. Starts every time and pulls like a train. And unlike earlier Defenders, it doesn't drink oil, or belch black smoke. It's tuneable, fast when it needs to be and cruises over 70mph on motorways for hour after hour. The Grenadier is an absolute beauty. It's the Defender most of us were hoping for from Landrover for the 21st Century. I'm selling my Defender and having one.
Great video as usual but a few comments on NGO vehicle use.
Firstly the 70 series with front and side bars, and a spares pack can be landed in most developing countries (from TGS, depending on status) for around $45,000 AUD, probably half of the price of a similarly equipped Grenadier so on this alone I don’t believe it’s an NGO contender. INEOS has been engaging with the HALO trust but I see it as a symbiotic marketing exercise as there are very few NGO programmes that could reliably operate and justify the cost of Grenadiers in their fleet.
Secondly, driver standards aren’t actually as bad as you make out, all NGO’s strive towards lowering fleet costs and one way of doing this is to have professional drivers and very seldom are vehicles actually abused as opposed to used in very challenging circumstances. If a clutch or syncro ring was damaged, it’s a very simple repair with very simple tools and not a drama which leads me to my third point:
If you damage a modern automatic gearbox, invariably with the wrong oil or water ingress, it could literally write off the vehicle in a developing country. It’s just not getting repaired locally and with the best will in the world, Grenadier aren’t going to be there to bail you out. In Australia and the rest of the developed world, not an issue and there’s a chance that the repair and parts manual specific to each grenadier might actually be available not just online but actually on the screen of the car itself.
Further to that, the gearbox fitted to the Grenadier is a ZF 8HP which is a fantastic and very strong gearbox but unfortunately takes an oil which is not obtainable in any countries where NGO’s work. Using regular Dexron or ATF oil will destroy it. A very typical NGO scenario might be a failed river crossing or flood rescue where the vehicle has sat all night immersed in water. With a 70 series or old defender it would be a case of change the oils and filters, pop the injectors or glow plugs and spin the engine and job’s a goodun, with the Grenadier the reliance of CAN and the specialist oil required (which is also impossible to fully drain) would see the vehicle unrepairable or undiagnosable very quickly.
Another issue with automatics and NGO’s is that anybody who can turn a key can steal a vehicle, you may laugh but manual gearboxes are also a form of theft deterrent and ensure a certain minimum standard of driver before any training takes place.
Automatics are also unable to be bump started when someone left the lights on or the starter fails due to dust or water ingress.
Manual gearboxes and clutches don’t suddenly fail, automatic gearboxes do, the control systems on automatics are easily damaged by voltage spikes say from when jump starting from a truck or from electrical issues or from oil loss from the plastic filter housings or very thin casings or myriad of cooler pipes and radiators. This means that vital missions either don’t get completed or a team is stuck somewhere dangerous and remote in need of recovery.
Additionally, driving in certain slippy conditions with wide throttle openings, especially when bogged with an automatic gearbox and untrained drivers can result in massive wheel speeds that can destroy differentials very quickly as the auto changes up the gears and the open centre diff and probably a front wheel is spinning at over 100mph.
If an engine’s not running properly, for any reason, the automatic won’t allow as much progress as a manual gearbox.
If you have an issue with the brakes because the traction control has been overworked then a manual gearbox is much safer in mountainous country. Gearbox programmers never get it right and the torque converter should have a button on the dash or gearstick to lock it.
An admin vehicle in the city is the only role I would consider for an automatic with an NGO where for maximum availability to the beneficiaries and maximum value for the donors simply knowing that the gearbox isn’t going to be the component that stops vital medical or humanitarian assistance from getting through is reason enough for me never to deploy or advocate for an automatic in the field.
Is the ZF 8HP the right gearbox for the Grenadier? Yes, it probably is, just not for an NGO rest of world specGrenadier.
Generally fleet vehicles are leased, so in a leasing plan esp for fleet/ NGO maintenance package would probably be part of the cost which is more than the base lease cost, so I think the cost of the Grenadier cost could be offset by a: size of NGO fleet requirements, models and period box’s ticked as to contract agreement.
@@maverick2242 NGO vehicles are never leased, it’s a very different scenario working in developing countries. Basically all NGO vehicles are bought with donor funding without paying local taxes or import duty and there’s almost always a clause about giving the vehicles to the local government or other aid agency as part of an end user agreement. An exception to this is where vehicles have been got through the UN but this practice is in decline now. Occasionally rental agreements are made with local companies but these aren’t new vehicles and won’t carry NGO plates or have NGO status. It’s very important for NGO’s to have complete control over their movements.
Very interesting comment, what work do you do?
Can you please do some videos of this NGO info. Do you have a blog? Man this is interesting stuff. Love it when someone can school ASPW, it’s rare.
@@tracksonwednesday
I wouldn’t know where to start with making videos that people would want to watch and without potentially discrediting an organisation but the guy in the link has extensive experience with NGO vehicles and also makes many valid points regarding the Grenadier.
ua-cam.com/play/PLYy63QP5F3c4QWhU4eE4xMXrU7UVoslCg.html
Andrew, I really appreciate the hot/cold/hot sincerity of your review and only a hint of marketing; it's thorough and instructive, and matches real-world practicality.
Love the straight forward, direct rundown of the Grenadier. It's just like I'm sitting at the table across from you as you review the details... not listening to some salesman.
I know so many BMW drivers and laughed my box off when you summarized them perfectly!
Those Grenadier are gorgeous and simple, especially the interior!
The interior is the best bit. Buttons for everything and none of that poxy touchscreen crap that's infecting almost every other vehicle these days.
@@TheKnobCalledTone. spot on mate.
Are all the buttons good?? Everyone is complaining about the y62 having a dated interior and one of the complaints is too many buttons 🤷♂️
@@Mrbeast0099 I think the main complaint with that is the imitation woodgrain
madrx2 yeah I think your right, but all those buttons make them look dated as well, I actually don’t mind the wood grain but that’s a matter of opinion I guess, I would like to see the Grenadier interior cleaned up a bit but again it’s very subjective
I have ordered my Grenadier. My clever guru mate has also designed a camper for the back... Sure, we do need exact sizes ... but a tweak or two with those and we will be in like a robbers dog! The team made some drawers, proved the design on a 2016 VW Caravelle and with a tweak or three - serious mischief is planned!
I recently did 24K around Aust in the VW. My wife passed that first version with full marks. THANK YOU Andrew. Your opinions are greatly appreciated.
I was out in a 2b grenadier prototype a couple of weeks ago. I was quite impressed. Engine and gearbox were far better than I was expecting. It’ll make an excellent overlander.
That ZF 8 speed makes and engine its hooked up to shine. I’ve owned three of them and they excel in every area. But the low end torque tuning of the BMW in-line six with it is going to be killer.
Such a unbiased legend , I am pretty sure he will be bashed by marketing crappy guys . Lucky to have a legend and learn from him. Salute and respect to Andrew
Absolute truth on the quality of the BMW engine, it has also been used widely as a boat engine. Yanmar is one of the brands that used the BMW engine for this. They ran the stock engine on 300bhp, obviously because a marine engine can run bigger numbers due to less cooling issues. It's a quality engine that can easily provide the required qualities for a proper 4wd.
Loving his comments on the B58 I6 as he sits before a Buick-engined Range Rover. And Magna Steyr helping with its development. Seemed to work for the G-wagen. Can't wait to see him get his hands on one and wring its neck. Great vid, as always
Hello Andrew, I think the major reason why NGOs go for manual gearboxes is that they are more reliable in the sense that if you have a challenge with the gearbox or the clutch in a remote area in places like Africa( I am actually from Ghana) it is relatively easy for the village mechanic to do something about the vehicle to allow you to drive home and later to an accredited service station. With automatics, very few mechanics can actually help you out on the field. You mostly will have to be towed to a service centre( more inconvenience and expensive)
Manuals are better fullstop!
Listen to your videos is like listen to my own heart if it comes to offroad vehicles :-D. I really, really (really, really...) hope, that you will be one of the first in Australia Ineos will give his Grenadier for a testdrive. About 260.000 (or even more) people are just waiting to see you driving this truck!
G'day Andrew, I do understand that the Suzuki Jimny/Sierra is only a Tiny 4X4 & it is overlooked very often but when it comes to being a proper 4X4 it
ticks the boxes. Solid F&R axels, separate transfer box etc, I know its only a baby in comparison to the Landcruiser but good things come in small package's,
they can go most places the big boys go & a lot of places the larger 4X4 just cant fit. We have owned 5 so far buying our first in 1980 it was a LJ80V we cut
our teeth with it up in the NT & heaps of black soil plans, our present one is a 2011 Jimny anyway they are just fun, fun & more fun Mate.
Great car, but for touring you need load capacity both weight and volume.
A scaled up Jimny would be a welcome choice.
@@russcattell955i By Suzuki, I might add.
Those things are TINY inside. Good for a day outing to the local dump, but not to be living in while doing the Canning Stock route 😀😀
Unavailable in the US and Canada...😒
Help me obi wan you're my only hope! Nearly all of us off road enthusiasts want this the be a success and it's ticking a lot of boxes. Thank you Andrew for this video, excellent food for thought and I look forward to seeing more from you on this vehicle. I am seriously interested, my Hilux knows I'm up to something .. can't wait. The real test will be the Australian outback!
I think Dan Grec disproved ALL of the negatives you mentioned about Jeep Wrangler / Gladiator.
The Gladiator is a bit of a joke. It features everything that's bad about the Wrangler range, with nothing added to make it any good. All double-cabs have a weakness where the chassis flexes behind the cab. In the case of the Gladiator, it's catastrophically weak.
Dan who?
@@4xoverland Huh? First time I've heard (or read) anything about it being "catastrophically" weak - care to elaborate on this?
@@RudolfD Ja, maak uitlatings wat hy nie kan bewys nie - sy geloofwaardigheid was nog altyd verdag.
@@RudolfD Where I am from we have a saying - e bua ho khahlisa lithoto! it means talking nonsense to impress the non-sensible.
The only one on UA-camI truly trust to offer critical thinking on such vehicles. Truly enjoy the content sir!
Off Topic - I'm currently reading your book "Torn Trousers" - bloody good and funny!
Please, no spoilers! My copy is on the way 😁
Andrew goes out in his 4wd, tears his trousers and comes home. The end. Great story
Can I get this book in the play store?
The book has no 4wds in it, and nobody tears their trousers.
Hello Andrew, Dick here. While my overland rig is an 80 Series (its a keeper), my daily is an X5 3.0d. I've never ever thought of my X5 as a "Pretend off-road vehicle". It's an on-road SUV. Period! Anyone claiming it's an off-road vehicle (beyond driving on gravel roads), are delusional. Having said that, even with its 20" RF tyres, it did well without getting bogged tacking the Birubi Point end of Stockton Beach/Dune. Though nowhere near as easily nor effortlessly as my 80 series does. I won't even think at taking the X5 at the Stockton end (South) of the beach. The softer sand there will swallow the X5 whole.
I'm with you, nobody buys an X5 for off-roading, it's a sure-footed road/gravel car. But the M57 is an exceptional engine, light, powerful, tunable, tons of torque, relatively easy to work on etc. Will be a good choice in the Grenadier in my opinion.
@ Hammer, so how do you switch from being a Legend in the 80 to becoming a Di#k in the X5? Does it require a change of clothes or a hat ? 😂
@@GR8Tmate Does an X5 actually even have indicators? :-)
@@GR8Tmate It's a challenge but it's doable. It just require a lot of concentration, that's all. 😁
@@stevep8773 Surprisingly it does. But typical German car, the stalk is on the wrong side of the steering wheel. That's probably why most BMW drivers can't find it. 😜
The B58 engine and ZF transmission are both excellent, funnily enough, the same engine and transmission ARE in a Toyota, the Supra, have a quick test drive of an X3 M40i, you will be blown away Andrew
This is like listening to David Attenborough talk about four wheel drives.
I have set a rule for myself when assessing a car's reliability.
Every car is unreliable unless proven otherwise.
I can't see myself spending money on a new brand until I see how it goes for early adapters.
*adopters
Driving through Africa has been the 4x4 proving ground gold standard for the last 70 years. They should do that.
Great insightful video as always. When the Grenadier project was launched I was very excited about it. But then when I got used to the new defender and found out it was roughly the same price, my interest dwindled. I'm more interested again now I've heard about the van variant and had a play around on the configurator. You can get BF Goodrich tyres from the factory on 17" wheels too. True what you said about X5's, I saw one get stuck in a car park because an inch of snow fell in Vancouver.
Agreed. 100%.
- Meaning, IF I had the finances I would buy a Grenadier in a heartbeat!
I hope you buy one because I would love to learn what you would do to it, equip it, as well as learning your extended opinion about it.
Keeping my fingers crossed it will happen.
Me too
Honest, down to earth and fair appraisal of what we know so far. Thank you
AUD100k otr for the shell version . Just as I anticipated , it'll be nearly 140 sexed up . If it faults and has lousy support , it'll be a stillbirth in Oz . Distributors of cars in Oz don't like keeping parts or doing warranty work .
We share our concerns. Even though I am here to watch the review, every fibre of my being warns me against sinking my dough into this vehicle, at least not at this early stage.
Couldn't agree more regarding auto gearbox, all large tractors and new lorries use them now.
I wouldn't go back. There is talk in the UK of them offering a 5 door VAN! With just two seats, better access, that's my pick. Double cab, all depends on rear length for me, at present it looks like it's going to be too short. Nice points of view as always, and I'd love to see you with one.👍
Could put a tray on it.
@@dav4x487 they could, but from what I have seen of trays, it's a bugger to hitch your trailer, and that's something I do everyday as a fencing contractor.
Thank you Andrew, looking forward to your unbiased future assessment.
Special thanks also to your supporting Off Road History Museum and Sheikh Hamad bin Hamdan Al Nahyan.
2:30 in the us we call those “power sports dealerships” and you can buy anything from boats to atvs and utvs
I honestly love the Ineos. We are getting it here in the United States as well. I already recently picked up a new Lexus GX460 ( Land Cruiser Prado ). But feel like I should have waited for this one instead!
Andrew, I admire your enthusiasm. Mine has dwindled with each subsequent press release. It's the pragmatist in me I admit. I see many missing details glossed over with marketing BS.
is he a salesman?, certainly sounds like
Also, really enjoyed checking out your videos, which I just discovered today. If nothing else the Grenadier is a great looking vehicle, and a fresh alternative look for a land with many Jeeps.
I prefer the 5 door station wagon as overland vehicle for my family. Two rooftop tents enables sleeping places for the 4 of us. 270 awning, Engel fridge, Goalzero lithium battery and some solar panels and we are ready to go. We love to travel simple and light as this is what overlanding is about. Less stuff, more travel to nice places.
Until then I crave my Lexus LX470 with 2UZ-FE V8 engine. Life is good !
I really love the idea that you never miss to speak of solid axle!
Really great breakdown, thanks for this. Hope I can buy it one day in the US here
US trucks coming 2023 from what I understand. My deposit is open tomorrow so I assume there will be more info.
This! This is your finest video mate. You have nailed it in every aspect. I could not agree more. Eg 80 series, etc. well said well done. (Im gunna forgive the coffee machine in the troopie build now ;)
Why do NGO's like manual transmission's? You can't push start an automatic transmission.
Lol, so true!
Not entirely true ...
some American Autoboxes with a 2nd rear mounted pump can be push started.
NGOs are probably staffed by millennials these days. Many of them can't even change a tyre let alone gears.
A jump start pack, the size of a mobile phone sorts that out pretty easily.
Yes the really old ones had an oil pump down back so that you could, but cost cutting got rid of them. [my old AP6 Valiant was the last by Chrysler].
Can't wait to watch what this channel will make of Rivian and the like when that type becomes more mainstream. Say what you will but it is the future.
I’d like to see a update on the Mercedes vehicles now that the Australian military & Parks Victoria are using.
Apparently they've had issue after issue with those things. From electrical to mechanical. They should have just updated the land rover isuzu combo to another in-house built dream machine such as that
@@pumbleclub9174 that was all rumours that were proven to be false. They are actually doing very well in both Army and CFA/Parks.
This was an extremely informative and comprehensive video addressing many important points to the utilitarian/off-road vehicle owner and user, described clearly and really piqued my interest. You have a new subscriber!
the 70 series should be made or be available in every country in the world.... at an affordable price, to all farmers...and thats that
Should and would are two different things. Even though I dislike most vehicles made by Toyota, due to very poor experience, the two models I would not mind owning are the LC 80 and the 70 series. However, the 70 is a very basic vehicle and it does not comply with safety or/and emission regulations in many countries, hence the reason they will not be sold worldwide. In fact if this was feasible the price of these vehicles was more affordable and the manufacturer would be interested in further developing the range and continue selling it.
The 70 series wouldn’t pass all the safety & emissions Stuff in Europe, that’s why we don’t get it.
@@hughmarcus1 Yep, same story with the USA. You cannot get the Landcruiser there because of emissions standards. Here in South Africa we're still busy building new coal fired power stations, so I guess pollution isn't a very important issue to our leaders. You can drive an old diesel belching black smoke with impunity here...
Affordable? they’re $80k base
Thank you. Great insights and comparisons from a seasoned user of off road vehicles. As a "newbie to be" owner this is fully appreciated.
I would imagine NGO’s and others buy manuals because clutches and manual transmissions are cheaper to replace and repair than autos? At any rate, I cannot WAIT to see the Ineos in person!
For NGOs in Africa, it'll be a case of servicing. In Africa (outside of SA) manual transmissions are far, far more common than autos, so pretty much any bush mechanic can fix up a manual landcruiser, but will be unlikely to have the parts and expertise in autos. That's also part of the reason behind the absolute dominance of Toyota in the African NGO sector. You can go to the most remote village far in the highlands of god-knows-where and you absolutely will find someone who can fix a 70 series (same applies in Aus too, hence govt and farmers using them in remote areas). I think this is where Ineos will fall over and where the BMW engine / box in paticular could be an issue for corporate users like NGOs and remote mining ops. If I had unlimited money I'd definitely buy a 70 series troopy, but since I'm not dodging bullets in the DRC I'd give myself the luxury of having an auto fitted.
I love your Honesty, the Joy of being independant.
A Cummins crate engine would have been a great choice
Agree - a small Cummins would have been brilliant
That would have been my choice too, I wish the R2.8 wasn't so expensive. But for grenadier they need a petrol variant, that's why the BWM option makes sense much higher parts sharing, I'm sure there is already good experience connecting that gearbox to that engine too.
Certainly better than a BMW motor.
Cummins or Isuzu would have been brilliant choices. II wouldn't trust a modern BMW engine to get me to the shops and back without shitting itself. What hope is it going to have in places like outback Australia or Africa?
Too heavy and probably does not fit the image the Grenadier is trying to achieve. It's most likely why (amongst other things) they choose a BMW engine, since Europeans tend to be brand snobs on makes outside their continent.
Hi Andrew. Please please consider meeting up with Dan Grec from "The Road Chose Me". Even if it's just the 2 of you sharing a campfire for one evening and talking about all things overlanding. A 30-45 min exchange between the 2 of you would be extremely interesting. If you can't get him on UA-cam, perhaps consider a podcast? Food for thought. I greatly appreciate your work, Andrew. Cheers
I like that idea. Perhaps Dan can help him conquer his Jeep phobia.
I liked it so much more when the rumor was a $35k used starting price.
Your comment on BMW driver’s! That is surely a universally held opinion as it holds sway over here in the UK. And in SA where my numerous relatives live. Bravo for your succinct opinion 😅
The BMW engines are awesome. I have owned two B58 petrol versions (1 and 3 series, no X :) ) and have driven the diesel for two weeks in a 5 series and they are the best of the best when it comes to engines. If that makes me a dick then so be it!
I’ve driven off road here in Wales for decades, plus I also own a BMW 530d tourer and from my experience the 3 litre straight six engine mated to the ZF 8 speed auto are a great combination and I have no doubts it’ll be a big hit in the Grenadier.
I've had three BMWs, straight 6 3 series, V8 750 and Turbo V8 X5. Lots of good points but the reality is I've not once had an issue with a BMW engine. All three cars have been super reliable. Though I don't run my X5 down the bush roads, that is not the purpose of the X5. I do run it in 10" plus of snow on roads a few times a year and its perfection (with the right tires.) I do have an off roader, unlike overland trucks, my truck is a work horse (f150 Tremor). I've pulled cars out of the way with a strap when responding to a fire, used it to run down the beach in a rescue, and plow through snow when nothing else would make it. Cost is key, you have to have a tough easy to fix truck not a fancy truck if you plan to beat it up. The Grenadier is cool but will be interesting to see it becomes the new G550 or true off road truck. You will sell more off road looking street trucks though.
The thing I worry the most is post purchase servicing. If they have to ship it back to a factory from whatever dealer you pick it up from, it's gonna be a massive pain. Also how do they plan on dealing with spare parts? Can you call them up and get whatever you need? do they have any compatibility with parts already on the market? I just worry about buying into a vehicle system that doesn't have a well established parts system.
Did you watch the video?
@@chanceym6000 Yeah, he mentioned Bosch would service it. Didn't mention spare parts or anything like that. If I get a dent on the door, are they going to charge a kidney to get a new one? Just because the mechanical is well established doesn't mean every other part is.
The two door version will actually have 4 doors but no rear seats. So similar to the U.K. commercial Defender.
I’m testing one on the 27th of this month. I will be seriously thinking about purchasing one for Overlanding as soon as they come out. I actually can’t wait!
The main thing I find disappointing about the Grenadier (and it's not really something Ineos can be blamed for) is that it's only ever likely to be a "specialist" vehicle, which means an average person is never likely to be able to pick one up for a modest price, after it's been sold by the MOD or a utility company.
In 20 year's time, if we're still allowed to drive petrol/diesel cars, all the new Defenders will be ancient history, the Grenadier will be a "unicorn" and the rest of us will still be buying and rebuilding Tdi and TD5 Defenders.
The Grenadier is not built for ‘the average person’ any more than the old Defender was. These are vehicles designed to be worked by businesses that can make use of tax reliefs and reclaim the VAT, although the initial production will split relatively equally between commercial and consumer models. The consumer/private-buyer market is fickle and sensitive to relative incomes. With an imminent recession it is likely that JLR and Grenadier non-commercials will be hit quite hard and quite soon.
@@hedydd2 I guarantee you'll never see a Utility company or a farmer buy a Grenadier - unless it's bought by a farmer or exec' who especially wants one.
Grenadiers are only ever going to be the "oddball alternative" to the G-Wagon for footballers and rich soccer-moms.
@@SiCrewe
Your ‘guarantee’ is worth what? Absolutely less than nothing. Once the four door pickup is launched to supplement the two existing van commercials and production capacity is ramped up, farmers and utility companies will buy a significant proportion of units, just as they did with the always premium priced LR Defender and Series models before them. The value for money proposition is compelling when you can buy three four door commercial Grenadiers, nicely equipped, for the price of one G-Class [£50k vs £150k]. Or a base model Grenadier for only £5k more than the probable price of a V6 Ford Ranger.
Good words/video Andrew, 4wds keep getting more and more expensive...i cant justify the price in most cases but if reliable and refined this is an exception
GREAT VIDEO Andrew ,well explained and i understood from watching the main videos from Ineos themselves, pricing is good for a vehicle engineered and robustly built as it is, of course time will tell, the Australian and Canadian dollar are pretty on par with each other, so I'd say it won't be to different we will have to wait a bit longer, later 2023 which allows me time to save more shekels for a down payment, i understand the work its takes in establishing dealer and service networks having worked for GM/Volvo and Komatsu industrial equipment here in Canada, things will come together in time and the buyers of these vehicles understand this in most cases, thx you very much once again 👍
According to the "Build your Grenadier", sadly, it looks like the diesel will be unavailable here...!
@@tripleseven8361 is because North America has the highest aid quality standards in the world and if it was offered hereit would be so choked out it would be under powered compared to the rest of them globally
@@99unclebob Thanks...Not sure I understand your meaning...Could you explain further?
Excellent synopsis sir! You bring a much needed intellectualism to Overlanding. Looking forward to seeing what this will cost in USA. I also love the Troopy, so sad Toyota gave up on the solid front axle. In total agreement on the 80 Series. Prices have been rising on them here.
My two cents on NGOs and Autos, the cost of converting the likes of a 70 series to an auto is far greater than the reduced life span. Secondly, in remote areas mechanics may have a shot at fixing a manual transmission, the same can not be said for an auto.
Yeah it's a cost benefit thing for sure. The vehicle is going to kick the bucket due to other reasons long before a manual gearbox is going to die (even with all the abuse). This is especially true in many mines where increased corrosion will chew through the chassis faster than any of the internal parts will wear out. Plenty of underground mines go through LVs faster than they turn over staff.
I was a mechanic for a construction company in South Africa. Replaced many clutches, but the worst was the one guy who kept labouring an Isuzu kb 280 doing 30 km/h in fifth gear until the whole differential was destroyed. Agreed, that wouldn't be possible with an automatic.
Here in South Africa, companies don't buy automatics for their staff at all. Exception, the rubbish bin trucks are auto boxes to avoid the wear and tear of constant stop starts.
Golden Arrow bus company also use automatic buses in order to avoid unnecessary wear.
Zf8 spd is near on bullet proof. Change the oil and filter every 60k and you won’t have an issue
I don't dispute that the Zf8 isn't bullet proof, does it come out in any utility vehicles from factory though? Or are we back at square one having to convert a perfectly good manual transmission to a Zf8, achieving what in the process? A negligible longer life, the price tag of a Zf8 plus install costs? Im struggling to see the advatanges Andrew is trying to highlight....
Well said , well said
I Preordered one in July 2020 mate. Looking forward to more information from you cheers 🍻
Manual gearboxes in underground mining are preferred because there's no slip once in gear thus no running away downhill and all driving underground is up/downhill.
@@RudolfD yes lockup torque converters exist, but its not as simple as a manual gearbox in 4L.
Easy towing of vehicles and push starting are also two advantages of the manual underground where the environment is often very corrosive and wiring to starter motors and relays fail fairly often.
and you can put lock out plates over the gear select so the morons cant go rally driving up and down the drive bouncing of the walls.
@@inkpink9860 charge up love a sneaky high range.
@@inkpink9860 What are lock out plates? I've never heard of it. I'm a diesel technician in South Africa.
The're a piece of mild steel plate that is screwed over the gear stick and bolted to the floor with a cutout pattern that only allows you to be able to select 1,2 gear and R
Curious to know if you will participate in the pre-booking of this vehicle!?? Thanks for keeping us up to date on this vehicle. Seems promising!
All excellent points.
It’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out. Either way, (here in the U.S.) I’ll be forced to simply watch from afar.
Ugh!...
I have little faith that the Grenadier will ever be an affordable platform in the U.S.
It’s probably going to be even less available here than the Troopy. It will be possible to get one I suppose, but (like the Troopy) finding affordable parts and bolt-on accessories would be all but impossible.
I'm in California,.What you say is so true about IFS. My 08 3500HD Silverado will be swapped soon to a solid axle to toughen my off-road capabilities. Great insight on the Ineous
I've always love going offroad. Starting with trailbikes, then to 4WDs when old enough to get my drivers license. The first 4WD I bought (in 2001) was a 2nd hand manual NJ Pajero. I was and still am a fan of Pajeros. I'm a fan of the Pajero's Super-select 4WD system. 👌 I love that car, even though people used to tease me for it not having a solid axle front-end. 😁And as one does, the more I got into 4WDing and it's lifestyle, the more I got to meet like minded people through forums and clubs. And when it came to gearbox type recommendations, to my surprised, most recommended an auto. I was expecting, the seasoned and hardcore off-roaders will make comments like "I'm a man, only manual for me" or "autos are for sissies" or "manuals are tougher than autos", you get the picture. But no, the majority (approx 90%) recommended to go with an auto. The usual reasons are the obvious ones, like being able to keep the momentum when changing gears in a steep rock crawl, or through bog holes/deep water crossings etc. So a few years later when I traded in my NJ to the NL, I got an auto. And it definitely was a more relaxed 4WD experience all round, particularly climbing up dunes etc.
Learning to drive will resolve those issues about a manual said by them that cant drive a manual properly.
Ink pink, when you try it you will understand.
Were you ever accused of being a wanker? Pajero is Spanish for wanker.
@@seanworkman431 😂
@@seanworkman431 This is well known is the Hispanic community in the Americas---- that why "Bits are missing" give it different name in USA.
Thanks Andrew. So wish to call you Dr Andrew, but Uncle Andrew will do for now, (as I talk about you with my 4yo) but thank you for such a great and in-depth review, and sharing your deep Deep knowledge with us
Really like the look of these Grenadiers. Can't wait for your review once you test drive one Andrew!
Very sensible points. I've just watched a British car channel take it over some very muddy quarry and it handled very well. I suspect this car will become very popular. In terms of add-ons, you didn't mention the very clever modular system that allows for stuff to be attached to the sides of the vehicle securely. This in particular would be useful in Aus and the African continent. For example, fuel and water.
You really should give Jeep another chance, their new Wrangler JLs are super refined and well engineered machines.
Cracked up at your BMW comments and especially the X5... My ex wife and her husband drive one and you are very accurate!!!🤣🤣🤣
I am on the early list for deposits, and will do it just to get the option. $65k US is too expensive for what I need/want. I was hoping to get a base 4-door wagon for $50k, but that's probably wishful thinking. We'll see.
Yeah there is a reason I went back to an 80 series. best car you can have for overlanding in my opinion.
Interesting, last night my dad asked me if I have heard anything about them lately.
I said as far as I know they are moving along with the vehicle. But I haven't followed the news in months. Only saw a article pop up here and there.
Coincidence, I think not.
Edit: Hopefully Andrew gets one. 😁
You have warmed to the grenadier Andrew,and you are right about auto v manual,fitted a mazda 3.5 turbo engine to a defender and it needed an auto to protect the drive train.It was one hell of an engine
Sadly one of the best Overland vehicles that we don't get in Australia is the Ram Power Wagon. Solid Axles, standard diff locks with Dana 60's and huge torque plus unbelievable comfort.
I have personally seen the new grenadier I was working near by and had quick sneaky look. I think these will be game changer for Oz. Very much and a cross between g-waggon and Defender but has much more cabin space.
My biggest concern with the BMW engine is the plastic parts wearing out in fifteen or twenty years.
Yeah I haven't heard of inherent issues with the bmw six, except for vanos failure and the turbos eating themselves, but the cars are still unreliable. I guess it depends on if the plumbing and electrical crap from bmw is carried over.
@@tedhibbard7110 I do hear they're fantastic when new. But they say to always lease a German vehicle because eventually the maintenance gets expensive.
Hehehe, 10-15 years. Ah, no. The Germans passed environmental laws decreeing that all auto plastics be biodegradable. Guess what happens when hot and wet? My BMW V8 needs total coolant/oil resealing every 5 years. I only drive 10k miles/year which is typical for a lifestyle 4x4.
So excited about this vehicle. Others have said it, but it’s the Defender Land Rover should have made. Will it sell - yes. Simply, there’s a market for the tough, capable, modern vehicle which delivers. Again, the Defender Land Rover could and should have made. Yes it’ll be expensive. But as you’ve said, the quality of the mechanical parts, including the solid axles cost money. Everything points to this promising to be a superb off-road vehicle dressed in unpretentious, retro clothing. I hope they make the LWB, 2-door van as well - it’ll be the perfect next-gen overlanding platform. Great video ASPW… Hope Ineos have the foresight to trust and sponsor you to showcase their vehicle..
You have seen that the cooler of the Grenadier is in front of the front axle? Unprotected. You can't protect it with a underbody protection (reduces the cooling which is already at its limit) and it will be full of mud (reducing the cooling again) when it digs into mud for the first time. You may protect it from a tree stump by a horizontal bar, but it doesn't protect you from the limb drilling into the cooler. Same at the back, where the exhaust is under the rear bar, just protected my a very thin plate. And the fuel tank lurks out of the latter frame.
The space in the back is less than in a Defender or Toyota and I can't imagine how to place camping interior into it without removing the rear sets. Will it be possible to mount a pop-up-roof on it, looking at the roof dashboard? And why in the hell there are lashing bars at the doors (making more work, more cost and more holes)? What will you put there when? If something which hangs on the doors will get caught by trees, limbs, etc. while driving through the woods, what will happen with the doors?
For me it is not important to see experts driving the Grenadier up the Schoeckl hill in Austria but if it forgives mistakes by normal drivers. I have doubts about that.
I doubt it will come near the mighty Landcruiser, when it comes to toughness, reliability and longevity.
@@BubblesTheCat1 Hmmm...depends. Suspension, axles etc. are not limited and can be as good as others. In fact I prefer coil springs above leaf springs when it goes off road. Regarding the engine you might be right, but we should not compare engines from the 80's or 90' (which were the best engines, matured and no environmental protection technology which often causes problems today) with engines from today. You never get these old engines back, so every manufacturer has to cope with that. A Toyota and also an Ineos. And also Toyota has some weak points, if I think about some gearboxes or the wheel studs... However, the Grenadier has any chance to proof that is is robust. If you look at the suspension and the bars and the joints you see that at least the prototypes are developed with robustnes in mind. They are very strong and thick. And then you know where the (high) weight comes from (which is drawback again).
@@LRAWo Yeah, I agree with you, time will tell, but personally I would rather take my gamble with my money on the Cruiser.
Maybe if the Grenade had been out for a couple of years, and proven itself.
I for one wouldn't have peace of mind doing the Canning Stock road with a BMW engine and all it's crappy plastics and electronics.
@@BubblesTheCat1 Yes. Agree.
@@LRAWo 😊👋👍
Excellent analysis! That´s definitely food for thoughts! Thank you!!
Why not automatic transmission? For the same reason you don't want air suspension. This is an electronically controlled auto box. Even if it was completely mechanical, you don't want to get stuck in the middle of nowhere due to failure in your transmission. In a manual gear box even if you lost one of the gears you can, usually, manage somehow. Therefore, it is best if clients are given the option to choose. As to the BMW engine, it may be good but then again, it is loaded with electronics. For such application you need an "agriculture engine" i.e. as simple as possible.
I’m impressed with this guy, he certainly knows his stuff, the best review I’ve ever listened to but I can’t decide if I like the car or not.
Another great video Andrew, love ya stuff mate and the especially the term "no mechanical sympathy" that's a terminology I've been searching for, for a long time. Puts a lot of drivers/operators in a nut shell👍
I really want to take this for a test drive. I’m very excited for this 4wd, I had a gq (well 2 actually), currently have a 100 series LC and haven’t been excited about any new 4wd’s until I saw this one. Just have to wait for the dual cab.
Also FYI I was told at the National 4x4 show in Brisbane that ARB are talking about supplying long range fuel tanks for them, which could potentially indicate that other add on’s may follow.
I have a few thoughts I'd like you to consider regarding automatic transmissions.
when you mention its advantages of comfort, constant torque, and refined control that preserves other parts of the vehicle, I agree with you. and also that the automatic transmission, performs better than the manual, without a shadow of a doubt. in addition most automatic transmissions have manual gear control option, so basically you have a manual and automatic transmission in one, in the hands of an experienced driver, it's an unbeatable duo.
but here comes my considerations, it all comes at a price, and when we put it together with inexperienced drivers, that's where it gets hazy.
automatic transmissions usually need auxiliary cooling systems, sometimes have external radiators, sometimes inside the gearbox itself, and sometimes integrated into the vehicle's cooling system, which greatly increases the complexity and interdependence of systems, in fact, most of the problems with automatic transmissions is due to overheating, which is very rare in manuals.
All modern automatic transmissions need a control module, and are usually integrated into the vehicle's ecu, which again increases systems dependency and complexity, your transmission may be ok but not shifting due to problems elsewhere.
add these two items to a driver who doesn't know how to drive an automatic transmission: wrong gear selection, holding the car uphill with the accelerator instead of the brake etc. to heavy trail environments with constant crossing of flooded sections and you have enormous potential of failure and in case of electrical emergency, you can not make the car start in stride. there are many disadvantages for REALLY difficult terrain. Add to this the fact that automatic transmissions have a higher maintenance cost, a higher acquisition cost, and a cost per kilometer driven generally 20% higher.(here the disadvantages of torque converter, it loose energy to friction to create comfort)
i think all these facts contribute to offroad people, still today, prefer manual over auto...
I believe that for a touring/tourer vehicle autos it really is the best option, but for overlanding and hard long mud expeditions vehicles, manual is the choice.
thank Andrew for share this video
BMW diesel is one of the best engines in the world been use in trucks
Thanks for a great overview. Very interesting vehicle. My only gripe with it was the engine, but not because of BMW owners - because of reliability and parts / service costs. I've owned a couple of BMWs and they were nightmares mechanically - unreliable and expensive to fix. I have never had such experience with the Japanese cars I've owned - more reliable and cheaper to service. For an overland vehicle I think it's even more of a problem. Then there's the theory that the Euro engines don't fare so well in hot and dusty environments. I think they would have done much better to go Japanese, or even Korean..
Beemers break down around 48000mls. JAGUAR DIESEL new diesel they brought out late 2019 reckoned to be best on the market.
Agreed, I’ve had some bmw products and they can be very cheaply made, overly complicated (because of emissions regs) and tightly packaged which makes working on them a nightmare.
Was watching a reliability index video just last week. Basically German and British engines are the most unreliable. It was a British video based on British warranty claims.
I've had my 2001 Defender 90 TD5 with its BMW engine since 2010. I've driven it over 40,000 miles and it currently has 97,000 miles on the clock. I bought it in the UK and drove it to Portugal, where I've lived since 2013. It's been back and forth 3 times. I live in the hot, dusty mountains of Alentejo, where I've basically used it to trek around these mountains and as a motorised wheel barrow, lugging sand, cement and concrete blocks, whilst I renovate my home. That TD5 engine has never missed a beat. It starts first time in all weather and will cruise, albeit VERY noisily, literally for hours on end along the motorways of Spain at 80 miles an hour. People who criticise BMW engined Defenders, generally have no actual experience of owning or driving one. Diehard purists with some religious attachment to their beloved, if apparently untuneable, 200 and 300 tdi's. I have no idea if my TD5 is some kind of rare anomoly. I have zero mechanical knowledge. I have it serviced annually. I get it fixed, when some crappy LR bit breaks. But it's the cheapest car I've ever had to maintain and those bits are ridiculously cheap. The majority of my fellow Defender owners have always turned your noses up at the TD5, but mine has always been an absolute beauty for me. The only car I've ever owned that makes me smile, every time I drive it. Oh, and the Grenadier is a work of art and my dream car.
@@ianworley8169 That's good to hear you've had a good experience with BMW engines. My experience with BMW was not in a 4WD or diesel, but a E90 sedan. After only 50,000 some things started to go wrong that were expensive. It was a few years ago but from memory something to do with cylinder head cover, that was about $2K to fix - the mechanic had built his business around this issue with the E90, and had a whole pile of the failed parts from other E90s when I dropped the car off. Another $1K for a failed power steering pump. At the time I was surprised as I'd always thought that with German autos like BMW and Benz you pay a premium, but you get good quality and reliability. I then did some research, and found they're actually generally a lot less reliable than Japanese cars. I then came across some articles that were of the opinion that German cars (generally), are engineering masterpieces, but often over complicated and therefore with more things to go wrong. In contrast Japanese auto engineering approach (generally) is more simple and robust (albeit less elegant) and therefore less likely to fail. And I think this certainly rings true when you look at reliability stats for Japanese (and Korean) auto brands vs. most others. I also thought about some of the other Japanese products I own, like my Seiko mechanical watch, and the Japanese quality / value rings true there too. Since then (with cars at least), I will only buy Japanese. I know my comments are quite generalized, and not specific to the engine in the Grenadier (which may indeed be very reliable) - mine was more of a general comment on Japanese vs German engineering reliability. I just got burnt once and found it difficult to trust them again. Agreed, the Grenadier does look great, and I hope it's BMW engine proves me wrong ;)
Thank u Andrew @Ineos Hope you Listen to Andrew You can never beat someone that as decade of experience. I am Only 2 years yonger the Andrew and had just as many toyota landcruiser if not more then Andrew with over 20 years living on the road here in Australia and still own a Landcruiser today My point is if you can just equal the Landcruiser It be good to see New 4wd manufacturer Here in Australia with 4wd qualitie product I feel we only have Toyota That can meet Australia outback roads form the assembly line. Thank u Again Andrew Take Care Mate.
Andrew I work with BMW's every day and all I can say is around 100,000klms timing chains, injectors, glow plugs and modules, cooling systems, water pumps, ignition systems, maniolds, EGR systems, constant major oil leaks etc etc, just name a few problems. Looking at it, it's just got the engine and gearbox out of the X5, even the gearstick is out of a BMW. They do not withstand punishment or neglect.
This thing will just end up the poor man's G-wagon and be hauling kids round the city.
Unortunately no "real" Aussie 4wder's will buy it. It's a shame, for a while I thought it could be the next proper Defender.
I'd buy one, no way it would be diesel though as you say past 100k a bloody maintenance nightmare.
Awesome analysis I love the way you deduce the variables and arrive at such a considered conclusion. I’d buy a two door because my wife and I camp, I go off-road to rural lands and she drives to the shops!! Bingo but $80k plus hmmm 🤔
There’s a good reason why those of us in construction, ranching, farming, mining etc are a bit hard on vehicles. They work for us, we don’t work for them. They’re a tool. We love them…but we want them tough.
And like rental vehicles, you don't own them, so who cares how hard you treat them eh.
Drive them like you stole them. You can really learn a lot about how far you can push a 4wd when its not yours.
This Ineos is going to be the gold standard
I used to drive BMW for a long time and for a good reason - apparently that is ALL you need to know... so long guys!!!
Of the tyres that you can spec on your Ineos Grenadier direct from the factory
I believe the road going ones are Bridgestone and the off road are BF Goodrich
Not sure you’ll like either, but atleast with the 17 “ or 18” wheels there will be plenty of others available in your local markets etc
It will be interesting to see how the Grenadier stacks up with real people. It's looking very promising so far for someone who wants a durable live axle vehicle and doesn't want a Toyota. Hopefully it's doesn't become know as the grenade.
That would be a tragedy that is waiting to happen, being Australia of course.
Good day Sir.
Just some info on the Patrols shown, it is GQ (Y60) then GU as mentioned however a GU is the Y61 and then the last two are both Y62's 2nd one just a face lift, might as well call the last one Y62 series 2 as in the GU's (Y61) Where they went from a series 1 to series 4 as they got face lifts and newer engines.
Just mentioning as some of your viewers might get confused.
Regards
Dewald from South Africa.