It’s frustrating to see people act like Goodreads is a professional review space over and over again. It’s a social site for people to track their own reading and connect with others, there are plenty of highly regarded publications that have higher standards for quality and evaluation
Exactly! And the rating system asks how you feel about the book, not what the book's quality was! Four star means "I really liked it," not "this was a great book." There are plenty of great books that I dislike and plenty of trash books that I enjoy the hell out of.
the ironic thing is that the two reviewers who chose to round differently basically averaged their reviews out on Goodreads at 4.5 stars, which was their rating in the first place.
As a feminist, I hate that she is taking a personal issue (her book getting fewer stars than she thinks it should get) and trying to make it a political one. Feminism is only relevant here to the point that she should be able to publish her book and get paid (equal to male writers) for writing it. Feminism doesn't mean she is entitled to 5 star reviews or exempt from criticism. Also, PTSD/trauma is no excuse for rude and obnoxious behavior. If anything, those of us with PTSD have an obligation to get help and take precautions to ensure we don't perpetuate any cycles of abuse. If she only lashed out the first time, and then sobered up the next day and sincerely apologized with a vow to do better, I would still be cautious about engaging with her content but ultimately wouldn't pass judgment yet. But the fact that she doubled (and tripled etc.) down shows an immaturity, entitlement, and lack of responsibility that I can't respect or support.
@Corvidae it may not have been originally but I think it developed into one, especially when she started reframing the narrative to make herself out to be the victim.
Right?! Like sure if I wrote a book and someone said "hm, I liked this book, 3 stars!" I might be a little sad but at least they didn't hate it, 4/5 is really good! I do kind of wish goodreads had .5 stars or was just a 1-10 scale
Authors everywhere feel the same. Since when did 4 stars become a bad thing? Or justification for cyberbullying reviewers? As an author, I hope to reach 4 stars. Lauren Hough is the literal *facepalm* of authors everywhere. Rookie mistake. I truly hope her publishers take this into account if considering to continue working with her.
As someone who has worked in the mental health field for far too long, PTSD does not compromise a person's ability to know right from wrong. Stop hiding behind a diagnosis because it waters down mental health.
Exactly. I've dealt with PTSD since early childhood, never in my worst did I think to compare relatively trivial things that bother me to r*pe. It's not only sickening, but deeply insulting.
Right. Narcissism is a personality issue that manifests through behavior. Blaming it on PTSD is unjust to those who suffer from that disorder...as if mental illness isn't already stigmatized.
Thank you! I really hate how people, keep perpetuating this myth that further stigmatises people w mental or personality issues and paints them as abusive or dangerous.
I’m still so perplexed by this whole thing. Lauren Hough started all of this by being incredibly rude for no reason and we’re free to choose not to read her books now that we know more about her character. I don’t personally rate books I haven’t read (or DNFd) but I understand why reviewers are upset! Her reaction to the review bombing has been even more offputting than her initial behaviour and I know I won’t ever be reading her work. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this and I love your shirt 😂
Watching everything unfold on Twitter was truly a wild ride. Every time I thought it couldn't get worse, it did. Like...why aren't you celebrating your release with people? WHY ARE YOU ON GOODREADS. I cannot.
I like, never leave comments on videos but I actually did put her on a "never reading these authors" shelf so I have something of a stake in this! In my personal review, I pointed out that review spaces are not for authors and that the reason many of us were upset was less so the insults (because really, if I had a dollar for every time I've been called an asshole by someone I didn't know, I would not be a cashier lmfao) and more so that she violated the "barrier" between author space and review space. Review websites are not FOR authors. I think it was TJ Klune whose tweet I last saw who said that review spaces have always been curated by and for readers and consumers and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. It drives me crazy that this isn't even NEW, this whole grown ass authors acting like spoiled children routine. I'm damn near convinced it's a marketing tactic. Also as a side note, Lauren Hough has me blocked on Twitter... Despite my Twitter being private. Girlie either saw a reply to my tweet or went through the trouble of clicking on my Goodreads profile and following from there, and I genuinely can't decide what's funnier.
Lauren Hough is such an interesting "Twitter Villain of the Week". She captures the combination of entitlement, disconnection from reality and doubling down required to transform a minor moment into a community-wide event. Every time something like this happens I'm reminded that things I think are fairly universal ideas, 4.5 reviews are fantastic (literally an A*), can be seen in wildly different ways by others. Lindsay Ellis's recent video on cancelling has made me genuinely reflect on the schadenfreude I feel at the takedowns of characters like Hough. But the spectacle is so perfectly designed that I doubt the culture will ever move away from it. As much as I think Lauren is ridiculous I do wonder how necessary feeding the beast is. On the one hand, tools like Goodreads are the only way readers with little real institutional power can get their voices heard. On the other hand, how much will petty things like review bombing actually curb Hough's harmful behaviour? Probably not much.
I have been feeling "why are we feeding the beast by still talking about Hough" all week. On the one hand, there were a few high profile incidents of authors behaving badly right before I joined BookTube that gave me pause so the community making it clear that this is not good behavior is good. On the other hand, it feels like Hough is still going because we're still giving her individual attention??? Idk. Edit: correcting some bad autocorrect word choices
I always look forward to hearing your opinion on issues in this community, and this video was no different. There’s something particularly vile about bullying and lambasting reviewers who, in my experience are predominantly women (especially in that her “grow up” screenshot was of two women) and then attributing any valid criticism OF HER to misogyny, UGH. Deeply grateful for YOUR role in the book reader/reviewer space. I always leave with something to think about and you’ve never steered me wrong (even on Catherine House).
As a writer myself, I cannot imagine looking at a 4/4.5 star review and being angry? I don't want to call her ungrateful but that's such a glowing review.... I was honestly baffled when you said this started with 4 star reviews...... Like what... is happening........ Thank you for your commentary!! It's always a delight to see ur vids!
Seconding this! I’m still getting use to not having shelves (I think we can tag books on StoryGraph?), but I love that it spits back all this data about your own reading habits! And I think it encourages more reviews bc they prompt readers with so many questions.
Usual Existence this prompted me to fiddle with StoryGraph and figure out my tagging system! Im so excited by how many things are being added to StoryGraph 😍 I feel like either I was very clueless when I first joined in January, or that they really have added a whole bunch of new features.
@@BrokenDarkFire they truly add a bunch of features every other week 😃 I have been using The StoryGraph for the last 10 months & it improves so much since I started. Following the site update/progress on Instagram is fun & insightful too! They also have public roadmap now.
In a strange coincidence as I was driving home I was listening to Lauren Hough on NPR's Fresh Air and Terry Gross complimenting her work then asking her if it was difficult to integrate into society after leaving the cult. Hough talked about how she'd miss cues and often do things perceived as strange, but wouldn't understand what she was doing "wrong”. Then when I got home I happened to turn on your video. Such whiplash haha! Not that it is an excuse for treating people terribly, but her background made me understand the people mentioning her PTSD. I love your videos! Even when I haven't read the books you talk about or am not aware of the drama going on in the online book community, I always find you very engaging. I agree with the other people saying you should look into Storygraph. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
Yes, I feel like understanding her background gives insight into her behavior and truly, I feel some sympathy for her for sure. It's just like... take responsibility and stop and move on. She just kept GOING. I tried Storygraph but like very, very early on in the beta days. I might give it another shot, but my first impression is that it didn't quite have the forward facing/social aspect that I use GR for.
That shirt is amazing! Other than the 1 star reviews, people are behaving reasonably, and what is being asked of them is unreasonable. Lauren Hough, and her supporters, expect absurd things. She gets to insult, intimidate, and block anyone she wants, but still feels owed readers, reviewers, and praise. Perhaps most of all, we're being told she deserves understanding as she offers none. We're told we don't understand her sense of humor, or her trauma, and that if we read the book we'll get it. But read the book, understand, and do what? Can't share a nuanced opinion on it, that's for sure. The only acceptable response is to become a cheerleader. The phrase that keeps coming back to me is "one true dream." She feels we're killing her one true dream. But she's sabotaging herself. Again and again. The only thing that still makes me feel a pang of sympathy for her is the evidence that she won't let herself have this, and can't accept her role in not being able to bask in the moment. I guess in the past she's told people they're lying about their LGBTQA+ identity, and the people against her now are being accused of sexism, even though a lot of her critics are clearly liberal feminists, and members of marginalized identities. It's a lot, knowing she's targeting the pool of people who would have been her best readership.
The one true dream part is very interesting to me too because her book is still published, it's well marketed, it's still charting, and what... it has a bad Goodreads rating? It really is like she can't see the big picture of her own success and because of that is chipping away at what should at least be enjoyment of said success.
@@mynameismarines If her dream was to be a successful, published author, profiled on NPR and the major papers of record, her dream is alive, and it's hers to lose. If her dream is universal praise and love, good luck. No successful book has that, no matter how classic, or well-received, there will be reviews that say, "I didn't like it, and don't get the hype." The only books with all 5 stars are by indie authors who are begging people to read their books, and can only get friends and family to review. I think they might be willing to trade places with Lauren Hough. Those writers are hustling for the readers, the reviews, the publisher, the team supporting them, and the connections she can't seem to appreciate. They're spending every last dime on editors of varying qualifications, and for a cover that doesn't scream indie, and she's big mad because not everyone is proclaiming her book the very best of the best. I think the reason I can't look away is because I wanted to read her book. I tried to win it in a Goodreads giveaway, and it was on a list on my phone for a planned book splurge in June, my birthday month. And then the author called people a lot like me nerds, and then blocked them ... and me. It's like a butcher calling people meat-obsessed losers and getting offended when people pick another butcher. "I've always wanted to own a butcher shop, how dare you not support my dream?"
yessss thank you for talking about bias and objectivity!! One class I took totally changed the way I thought about this-- we had a whole discussion about the topic and how it's much more responsible to disclose your biases than to pretend to be completely objective. It actually, ironically, makes a piece of writing much more trustworthy & reliable, because you have an idea of the creator's perspective. Ever since then, I've always gotten really frustrated when people complain about biases and subjectivity as if these are things that can just be set aside and ignored.
I just... what kind of weird mental gymnastics do you have to go through to say "everyone is required to be 100% positive about my artwork all of the time and no one is allowed to say any bad things about what I've done ever. Anyone who says any bad thing about me is clearly an Evil Person" I think you're totally right here - people aren't obligated to read your book, actions have consequences, and bullying=bad is literally something we learn in gradeschool.
It's so wild to me that these feel like super basic things and yet we are having conversations about them... frequently? The number of Tweets I saw from authors lambasting reviews for being biased and subjective... WHAT? And honestly, there is a place for conversation about the different ways that marginalized authors receive criticism, but this wasn't it. This had nothing to do with Hough being a woman...
@@mynameismarines exactly. And so many authors who think it's appropriate to respond to specific reviewers - and it's kind of been twice in a row now where the response has been to address the singular criticism or the singular negative mention in an otherwise Glowing review - and I just want to remind them... Like, just because something exists doesn't mean it's for you to engage with. You can if you want to, but the evidence and the history suggests that its a Bad Idea and the smart thing is to not do it. Like, don't be surprised people don't wanna hang out with you anymore if you're mean to all their friends?
What gets me the most out of all of this, is that Hough called people who read "nerds" and a) I think that most of us are proud to be nerds but b) why the hell is she writing a book if she thinks readers are outsiders/uncool crowd or something ... so bizarre On a more serious note, as you mentioned in the video - marginalized folks are getting bad reviews because the "pronouns in the book are confusing" or that they are "too PC" but then you have an author like this who while yes, she is a part of LGBTQ+ and a woman, but she called TJ Klune misogynistic because he called her out when she was belittling two female reviewers; and made fun of people using trigger warnings while some defended her because she has PTSD... I'm sorry but something doesn't add up. Another thing is, how can she be upset about 4.5/5 star reviews? Imagine having such a huge ego... I heard lot of writers talking about how one always thinks their work is never perfect and at some point they have to just let it go and publish it. Her perspective was more like: this is a masterpiece and if you don't find it perfect then something is wrong with you.
I totally understand how you feel about the lack of half-stars on Goodreads and how there aren't any specific things that you can comment on for every book. That's actually one thing that I really like about StoryGraph. Pacing, character development, content warnings, etc. Those things make a big difference to me and I was satisfied enough with being able to import my GR informations. It's not the same at ALL and it's still totally missing the social aspect, but i write all of my reviews there and copy them over to GR when I feel like it. Anyways, GR is for us to track our own info as hobby readers and people who read for fun and like to share what we are reading and talk about it. I wish that once you became an author you got a "what not to do on goodreads" booklet!!!
I so appreciate the energy you put into this and love the insight you bring to these conversations! We live in such a ridiculous time in terms of who has "a voice" and who doesn't that it's always bizarre to me to see people complain about social media as if it represents the whole world. So many readers aren't on Goodreads or any other review site; so many adults aren't on Twitter. This idea that the world is fully represented by the internet we interact with is bull. My other thing about this - her book is a set of personal essays. If it's another author whose book is not reliant on their personal history or their personal story, I could see separating the author's personality from their work, but her Twitter presence and her personal history are directly related to why she had a book deal in the first place? Just seems like a "learn to say sorry" moment that she (and her publishing team) seriously fumbled.
I haven't used Goodreads since January. I switched to the Storygraph because I prefer their review set up and their built in Trigger Warning tags. Thank you for your thoughts on the 1 star reviews and I've definitely change my perspective.
Really didn’t think I needed another take on the Hough fiasco since there doesn’t seem to be any updates, but I’m SO glad I gave it a go because it’s always a treat to find new booktubers you click with. Already subscribed, can’t wait to see more ⛅️
Your video basically put into words what I've been feeling watching this go on. I completely agree that this was the kind of situation that would have fizzled out if she had just taken a break. There's a long history of Goodreads being the target of authors (back in my Tumblr days, there was a whole campaign around "Stop the Goodreads Bullies" with huge authors like Anne Rice backing it). Certainly the level of influence of authors varies, but this seemed like a pretty clear weaponizing of her following. Her sales are doing just fine, if not improved by the drama.
Mari, this whole video is brilliant as always, and that part about society putting "inherent value on putting aside our humanity"...OOF. So well-said, and especially in the context of "unbiased reporting" that you mentioned. Wait, the "star ratings are inherently less valid" thing came up again?? of course I saw the response to her initial tweets which is how I became aware of the issue, but I didn't realize she came back and made it worse until I watched Jess' video! She just...kept going. And yes, I'd love to see Goodreads keep that same energy and use it to remove 1-star review attacks from authors who are attacked because of their identity! Side note, one thing I do think is a little odd is people using this opportunity to brag about how rarely they give 5 star ratings anyway. I feel like this feeds into the weird dichotomy of "star ratings are the worst and if you use them you're not a Real Reviewer" / "if you give out a certain number of high ratings you aren't an intelligent or critical reviewer." Like yeah, if someone *only* gives 5 stars I'm happy for them but maybe not as likely to go to their reviews to help me decide if I want to pick up a book - but likewise, if someone *never* gives a 5 star review and explicitly bases their reviewer credibility on that fact, I also don't think they would be the most helpful resource for me because I don't feel l can trust their reviews. Also weird because as we read and review more, shouldn't we be happy to get better at picking things we'll enjoy??? like isn't that... one of the goals? Anyway, definitely not the main issue here, just tangentially related thing that's been bugging me lol.
I'm just tuning to all of this today and I'm just real concerned for my friends and fellow reviewers who are suddenly getting a lot of hate for saying basic things like "reviews are subjective "
5:53 thank you VERY much for making what i consider to be an absolute ESSENTIAL designation: one between authors invading reviewer spaces, and then the other side of it, where it's a CONVERSATION, which books are meant to be, in my opinion. i really thought you were putting all of those sorts of interactions under the same umbrella, but now i see that you understand that there is a VITAL difference between the two. this is very mature and responsible of you, and i appreciate it so much.
So I’m obsessed with you merch and naturally you too. I love you for doing this video. I’ve been deep in my feels over this LH “situation” since I watched her self-destruct on Twitter. But what bugged me was that she really hasn’t faced any accountability for her pretty awful behavior. When I think about it, a WOC would not have been allowed to just act a fool and get rewarded with a virtual book tour and new media bookings. So disappointing. I wanted to read this book, but now I’m a hard pass. I just don’t dig the writers getting into the reader spaces. Stephanie Land was sort of hateful. I didn’t love her snark when defending LH.
Lol! Right!?! If she said she was high it wasn’t weed. She is a lunatic. Having a hard upbringing does NOT give you a ticket to treat others like trash or to think that you are better than everyone else. A good 90% of us could be total douce bags if that were an excuse to be crappy ppl. She has shown her true colors. Be the change you want to see in the world..... and don’t go on a rant days long bc ppl gave you less than a perfect rating. I feel like a four star rating was overshooting anyway. She should have taken it happily and kept her mouth shut. Instead she called reviewers who spent money on her book assholes and nerds. She isn’t Shakespeare.....get over it and quit destroying your own career, Lauren. Anyway.. I just agreed with your reply and say it’s a bs excuse to have acted like a three year old throwin a tantrum bc they didn’t get their way.
I’m rarely on Twitter, so I didn’t know the whole scope of the story (or at least the basic rundown of it), so I appreciate the information. I think 1) the author was ridiculous because 4.5 stars, whether rated up or down on Goodreads, is still fantastic. And 2) I think if an author wants to “do the unhealthy thing” and look at reviews, that’s on them, but to take it in as just feedback. It’s like when you edit a book after it goes through an editor: you don’t have to change or accept every single thing they pointed out. As far as the 1 star bomb ratings go, I can understand why readers would do that when authors show such unnecessary and aggressive behavior toward readers (among other reasons), but is it always helpful? I’m not sure. It can be, yes, but will it be for everyone? I’m not sure. I really liked the points you made at the end, Marines! I definitely agree, especially since listening to how you explained it, that reviews are 100% subjective. I know the way I rate books (which has recently changed) will be very different from how you do, or how every other reader does. That’s kind of the beauty of reading: it’s a very personal experience.
That shirt is legit everything 🥰 Thank you as always for the food for thought! I always appreciate that you make me think about these things more deeply
So many good points here omg! I personally don't like to put reviews for books I haven't read on Goodreads. There are so many ways to tag books in meaningful ways on Goodreads that don't involve reviews (shelves, lists, etc.), so it's not really worth it. Plus I care too much about my shelves being accurate to what I have actually read/ want to read. But also, I think people can use the site however they want (as long as it's within Goodreads terms of service)
The statement that critics are lauded and applauded while mere scum of the earth 'reviewers' are reviled is just ... making me laugh. And making me think. Great vid!
Your example about not going to a restaurant makes it so clear! I sometimes understand liking a book and not looking into the author too much... especially if you’re not a big reader. You just want to read something popular or something in the genre you like. But your example here really just hits home how closely linked author attitude and their books really are. That’s a totally valid reason to not want to support somebody. We don’t want to support mean, messy, rude people.
She should've been grateful that anyone read her book in the first place, and even more grateful that she was receiving such positive reviews. I feel secondhand embarrassment from this.
My unrated good reads review got deleted (lol) and I was going to leave it alone but what you said at the end really resonated with me. Publishers, agents, authors, etc are not holding themselves accountable for their bad behavior, so I feel perfectly okay with finding alternate forms of justice, like review bombing. If no one else is going to do it, we as consumers might as well let each other know who exactly we're platforming and spending money on. I think hough's initial actions could've been redeemed to some extent, but once she started weaponizing her white womanhood, dismissing tw/cw, comparing systemic oppression (like nazism and rape culture) to twitter feuding, etc...she fucking lost any sympathy I had. I rewrote my review and also rated it one star this time around. fuck it.
Marines, this is SO good!! That restaurant metaphor, yes, that's exactly it! Of course you don't have to care about the politics or cultural background of chefs as much as authors, and excluding a book from your list has a lot of those, but that's exactly it! Why do I have to be supportive of someone I generally do not agree with just for the sake of fairness? That's intelectual dishonesty to me. You wouldn't judge someone for not going to that restaurant lol
I always bring this up when authors hate *a particular review/reviewer* 1) all books get mixed reviews no single book has EVER gotten completely panned or universal praise and 2) an author should encourage readers or potential readers to read multiple reviews. I plan to be an author one day and I, as a current bookseller, always tell folk to read multiple reviews. I always read multiple reviews. I'll read 10-15 reviews of a title. I go to NPR, NYT, LATims, booktube, GR, Blogs. I agree with you that people believe or at least talk in such a way that gives the impression that book media people especially small platform ones have a large impact on sales and reception of a work. Most of the readers/book buyers don't care. I say this as a bookseller. Most readers/buyers aren't in the bookish (social) media so have no clue and truly don't want to have a clue.
Yes!!! Even what we collectively consider the best books or even classics get mixed reviews. And I'm the same way! I have people I know read similarly to me, but even so, I just look at a bunch of reviews, high and low, and use all of that to make my best guess about whether a book will be for me. Yep. All this hooplah about getting cancelled about Book Twitter when that means next to nothing for most people.
@@mynameismarines Another thing I find interesting is when you mentioned that we all limited time and limited money (well most have limited money but that's a separate topic altogether). Often when I'm at work a customer will ask me for a recommendation and phrase it as "what have read lately" or "have you read anything You really like," and it took me some time to really figure out what that was about because it seemed strange that a stranger would inquire after another stranger's reading taste. What if we have your different tastes? That's when I realized that for many, many readers they outsource the work of finding their next good book. I say that to say that many want a high hit rate when it comes to what they read because they don't have the time or quite frankly the prioritization to develop their taste(s). These readers will read top (insert number) books of (insert year) and follow what hits bestseller lists and what gets lots of media coverage. This is absolutely fine. I think however that these readers which from my perspective are the majority of readers are what writers fear being turned away because of low ratings or bad reviews, which to be fair is NOT what happened to draw Hough's anger. What are your thoughts? Honestly, it is out of a writers control whether someone reads or enjoy their work, but they can control how they react to it and man she did a poor job handling her emotions.
You put it very well. The issue is not so much that she was annoyed or maybe even offended by those 4.5 star reviews. It was her reaction to be called out for being super rude and unnecessarily posting and replying and quote-retweeting reviewers who have differing opinions than her. It's very clear who is the one with the fragile ego. Yes, Lauren has not had an easy life, and she has PTSD, as someone pointed out, but she should not be using her platform, which for her should be a professional setting, to call online reviewers mean names. She easily could've deleted her initial thread, and this would not be a huge issue now.
One of my favourite readers is a person who gave a 1-star review to my first book...from back when I was silly enough to respond to reviews lol! 😅 I’m glad I did, though. I’ve made changes to a couple of my books based on reader feedback, but that’s the benefit to being self-published, I get to listen to readers and make changes if they suggest something I agree with. Don’t get me wrong, there are some reviews where they complain about something I’ll never change, but I do want my books to be the best stories they can be. I like to say, “There’s nothing wrong with a 1-star review. It’s only a problem if you AGREE with it.” 😉
To clarify, I messaged her after I rewrote the book based in part on things she said in her review and offered her a copy of the updated version to review. I wasn’t out here raging at her for 1-starring it. 🤣
Absolutely agree on the energy front. I can't offfhand remember many instances where review bombings happened to poc writers and Goodreads went to the lengths it seems to be with this author. Glad I moved to storygraph
Everyone keeps mentioning Storygraph! I think I tried it too early and have to go back and really commit to using it. Also though, I use Goodreads more socially and so people can find my reviews, and that element felt like it was missing on SG.
@@mynameismarines I started using it during beta and like that they're open to/actively fixing any feedback they get. You can still view profiles on it but there's a removal of the social element which I never got on with GR from all the drama it has. I like, as you said in this video, just tracking everything, posting reviews and getting on with my day!
Again, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for a reasonable evaluation of Goodreads and how it functions. I have been long frustrated with people treating Goodreads as though it's a well organized publisher, rather than a messy, fun disaster of a ball pit where everyone who joins can bring their own unique ball, no matter its size, color, or cleanliness.
This is perfect, Goodreads IS a disaster ball pit. And I totally get why people might not play in it but the people standing on the outside going "this isn't an amusement park!" Um, duh.
I love this video. You really broke down everything and explained it very clearly. I appreciate you on this platform and all that you do. Your words are wise and I agree with you.
If you spotted me a week I don’t think I could put together this video the way you did in like...3 hours. As always, you’re insightful yet the way you lay things out so logically point by point just speaks to my Virgo heart. The way I use GoodReads would probably make some people scream. And I high-fived my screen when you said “it’s owned by *Amazon*”
I love your take on this and totally agree. Pretty much any shared opinion about a piece of media is going to be subjective because people are people. It kills me that this response to Hough got people up in arms, but I read “reviews” all the time on Goodreads where people knock a book for talking about experiences they don’t personally understand or recognize as their own reality. I specifically see this a lot when white readers review books by non-white authors about non-white characters. The repeated refrain of “X, Y, Z is not believable” just hurts my soul. But even though that type of reviewing bothers me, I wouldn’t blame the platform for that. I just don’t trust reviewers who denigrate books that don’t match up with their perceived reality.
I'm a Millenial and I started "canceling" companies in the 1990s. I stopped bying Nike over their child labour issue, Nestlé over their powder milk scandal in subsaharian Africa, etc. So, unsurprisingly I have been "canceling" authors too. I'm not a "mean internet bully" attacking poor struggling clueless authors. I simply refuse to financially support people whose values arent aligned with mind.
Ok first, lip color and nail color 🔥🔥🔥. Second, buying this shirt. Third, excellent video per usual. I cackle at anyone who says their review is objective. I also like/hate goodreads, I’m honestly just too lazy to move everything to another platform 😫
Thank you!!! I tried Storygraph when it was just coming out but it didn't totally sell me enough because I use GR more socially. It sucks I'm still there tbh.
I don't think people should hate review books that they've never read but also it's absolutely her own fault and you do not get to act like a spoiled brat without repercussions. All authors should take notes
This was SUCH a good video. You brought your points across so well. I really related to the bit about subjectivity - people have different preferences for different genres??? I have found I'm not much of a fantasy person generally, for some reason I just can't make myself care and I get so lost and I don't understand what motivated the entire plot to begin with. For example The Raven Cycle - I REALLY wanted to love this series and I did read all 4 (audiobook) but I just could not for the life of me pay attention and care about the characters or plot
Wonderful video, Marines. I agree with all of your thoughts and opinions on this utterly bizarre situation. There's a very small part of me that feels some empathy for this lady... her extreme reactions to 4/4.5 star reviews is alarming. There's obviously... a lot (for lack of a better word) going on with her mentally/emotionally, but the way she's treated and spoken to others is just horrendous, and pretty much smothers any sympathy I have for her. I don't know... *sigh* Watching this "drama" play out has left me feeling shocked, disgusted, and very sad. I feel absolutely terrible for the people she's attacked, but I also really do hope she seeks help, or that the people in her life who truly love and care about her encourage her to do so (and aren't actually feeding her ego and this terrible behaviour).
I had considered writing reviews on goodreads, and after this I won't, I wouldn't feel safe doing so.I foolishly thought book reading was a peaceful endeavour.
yes to everything that you said here. bless that shirt! just gotta keep speaking our truth because that's the whole point of reading and sharing our thoughts and these authors just gotta figure their shit out or we'll continue to call out the fuckery. like the privilege and audacity and caucasity of it all.
What really gets me is the "Grow up" tweet. I don't understand what's so immature about the screenshot she posted along with it, it really doesn't make sense to me.
You always have interesting takes on things, and I completely agree. I think the main issue is that Lauren Hough doesn't realize that reviews are for the READERS, so harassing and insulting us reviewers/readers for less than a 5-star review is not a good look. Also, a five-star review is -- for a lot of us -- reserved for the créme de la créme, and a rating we don't easily hand out. I know I don't. And instead of apologizing she puts on a Victim-hoodie and tells us we should excuse her hurting words because she's hurt by the consequences of her own damn actions. People didn't give her book a 1 star because she's a woman (which she claims), but because she uses her platform against the very people who tried to praise her book. And then calling TJ KLune a "m*therf***er"?! Excuse you, Lauren, you canceled yourself.
Hi sister! Great video and awesome shirt! (Wink,wink) I’ve never heard of this lady, and didn’t have a clue of anything going on, but I’m walking away from this video feeling very enlightened. Great job explaining everything.
That shirt! 🙌🙌🙌 I love/hate goodreads but it is what it is. This whole thing has been a mess and it really put me off of ever reading one of her books in the future.
I adore storygraph so much! I never tracked my reading bc I dislike everything about goodreads. Storygraph is so fun but also never makes me feel pressured
I'm always enlightened by your discussion videos, Marinés. I agree completely about the whole "subjective/objective" issue. I don't even want to divorce my life experience from my reading. ¡Pa'lante!
Personally, I think if a book made you angry that is a factor that needs to inform the review! Other people might choose not to read it to avoid getting mad
When you tweeted about how strange it is that authors review their own books I almost commented about how its weird when their friends/spouses also review it (at least, I don't think I replied? I second guessed because I think that's a muddier territory but my memory's been awful recently). I mentioned on twitter that I think this could have led to a dialogue about applying a rating system to a memoir that explores deep personal trauma, but it just didn't. I also feel like her initial tweet was a serious misstep, but one that you can recover from. It wasn't like she said something heinous, she just said something kind of dumb and nasty. Like you said, booktwitter has a short memory and if she hadn't doubled down this probably would've just turned into "hey remember when x happened?" if it ever came up again at all
For me, my decision to support a author, person, or business comes down to where do I want my *hard earned* money to go to. I want to support people who are doing good things in the world, so if a person or company‘s behavior goes against my own morals, I wanna make sure my money doesn’t go there. I’m so sick of people acting like that’s a bad thing!!
Your thoughts and the way you express yourself are just wonderful. And that is one super-weird way of reacting to a great review. I'm more than confused. And seriously, my reviews are totally subjective. I can give four stars to a book that is not nearly as good as another four-star-book. And I only give five stars to books that are my favorites. And I review books in categories. A fantasy book that gets four stars is not rated the same way as a detective story that gets four stars. :D So yeah... It's hard. :)
Thank you so much! And yes, I feel like ratings and reviews also depend on what a book is trying to achieve! And that comparison within genre is real too. There are just so many different things that go into our ideas of if a book is good and if we enjoyed it that any call for objectivity is WILD to me.
She may have more sales right now in the short term, but people as volatile as Hough is are going to continue to create problems for themselves in the future. It will come back to bite her at some point in the future.
@@Amy-rt7br I'm inclined to agree. Her bad behavior may work as a selling point the first time around, but one can see that she's the type to keep her heels dug into the hill she'll eventually die on.
I have seen one star reviews given to Jane Eyre, Moby Dick, Heart of Darkness and The Old Man and the Sea. Sales haven't gone down, new editions are constantly published and the authors have not complained. They haven't come after the reviewers either.
I wonder what her publisher thinks of her actions. They’ve already invested money on her and her book so they can’t afford her to fail but surely her actions must have some real word consequences. 🙄
I imagine this was not a fun week to be on her team or work at the division that publishes her, honestly. Even if the book will be fine, this is some version of a worst case scenario for everyone behind the scenes.
This is the first video of yours I've ever watched and I thoroughly enjoyed your analysis of this issue. You basically vocalize all of my thoughts on the situation, you just did it way better than I ever could 😆 As for reviewing and particularly rating books you haven't read that's a huge no for me. Hough may be an asshole but that doesn't negate the fact that she can also be a brilliant writer. Ultimately, like you said, the average reader who is not immerse in this space like we are will pick up her book and never know any of this even happened 🤷🏽♀️
I only consider goodreads a source of info about books. I trust the reviews of the few I follow, but my opinions diverge sharly from the average reader on goodreads, so I don't go by the ratings for the most part. I use the site organizationally to track my reading, completed and planned. I almost never give 5 stars. I give 4 to great books I really like. And I will round up or round down based on overall (subjective) feeling about the book. The ratings are for me, and if someone else uses them, it's at their own risk.
Imagine having Roxane Gay give your debut book five stars, and then Cate Blanchett is the narrator of it and you don't celebrate just being published but you go off on 4,5 stars review... For me Goodreads is a site where I talk to fellow book readers, buddy read with them, and keep track of my reading. I can't even grasp these objective-subjective talks. Reading is subjective and so are my reviews. Great point, where are all the uproars when racists rate Michelle or Barack's book one star... I know that there are petty one-star reviews now, but does she really thinks that everyone will love her book and will not have plenty of opinions on it in the future?!
Set up for success!! And by all previous accounts, a probably above average collection of essays. Apart from not wanting to support someone who thinks I'm an idiot, I also have a feeling now that I wouldn't exactly jive with Hough's world view and so that's another reason to avoid it for me but... read by Cate Blanchett??? A SHAME.
GR: *causes catastophe because of the lack of decimal star rating system.* The Storygraph: "Excuse me. Do you have time to talk about our lord and saviour?"
Welp, I have now watched videos from you, Jess Owens, Mara (bookslikewhoa), and Mina (Mina Reads) talking in some capacity about this Lauren Hough, um, situation. It's a TRIP for sure. I admit that there was one time I reviewed and rated a book even though I had DNF'd it at 50%. I've since taken away the rating because I realized/learned a bit late that, yeah, that's not really a fair thing to do. I did leave my review, which I felt was okay because I did make it clear I had DNF'd the book and was simply commenting on what I had read.
I don't actually read Goodreads reviews, and will give a rating, but only occasionally will I give a written review, and they are not very long. I keep a reading journal, where I will write more thorough thoughts that I can decide to post or I keep just for myself.
Ha! You are so right and your T-shirt is perfection! Of course GoodReads reviews are subjective, how could they not be? That’s the whole point of the site! And even professional reviews are subjective, because reviewing books are all about this one person’s perceptions, no matter what their competence; whether they are well equipped and well read or not, ultimately the review will be influenced by their personality and experience. :D I’m on GoodReads too and I read & review books in 4 languages. I’ve had authors and their fans attack my reviews and I never engage. Why am I supposed to defend my opinions about a book? I know that that opinion might be different if I were in a different mood or if my life circumstances were different at the moment. Ehhh I will probably read this book, because it does sound interesting to me. I don’t care if the author doesn’t like my opinion. It’s fine. :) It’s not the type of problematic that would keep me from wanting to check out the book. Now on to Jess’s vid!
There are so many complex points around this whole issue--author/reader relationship, bias, weaponization of mental health, etc. But, the funniest thing to me is that when you calculate the one that rounded down with the one that rounded up, you get a 4.5 star average, which was what they were aiming for. Between the two of them they gave the rating they thought the book deserved and she caused all of this ruckus.
It’s frustrating to see people act like Goodreads is a professional review space over and over again. It’s a social site for people to track their own reading and connect with others, there are plenty of highly regarded publications that have higher standards for quality and evaluation
right?? like you've never seen an author put a goodreads review in their book but they will put smth from publishers weekly lmao
yes!! this!!!! imo goodreads has WAY too much power but since it's owned by am*zon I don't think it will ever be reined in.
Exactly! And the rating system asks how you feel about the book, not what the book's quality was! Four star means "I really liked it," not "this was a great book." There are plenty of great books that I dislike and plenty of trash books that I enjoy the hell out of.
the ironic thing is that the two reviewers who chose to round differently basically averaged their reviews out on Goodreads at 4.5 stars, which was their rating in the first place.
I legitimately cackled when I read this. THE MATH MATHED AND SHE WAS STILL MAD.
As a feminist, I hate that she is taking a personal issue (her book getting fewer stars than she thinks it should get) and trying to make it a political one. Feminism is only relevant here to the point that she should be able to publish her book and get paid (equal to male writers) for writing it. Feminism doesn't mean she is entitled to 5 star reviews or exempt from criticism.
Also, PTSD/trauma is no excuse for rude and obnoxious behavior. If anything, those of us with PTSD have an obligation to get help and take precautions to ensure we don't perpetuate any cycles of abuse. If she only lashed out the first time, and then sobered up the next day and sincerely apologized with a vow to do better, I would still be cautious about engaging with her content but ultimately wouldn't pass judgment yet. But the fact that she doubled (and tripled etc.) down shows an immaturity, entitlement, and lack of responsibility that I can't respect or support.
great points.
@Corvidae whoa, interesting..
@Corvidae it may not have been originally but I think it developed into one, especially when she started reframing the narrative to make herself out to be the victim.
pro tip : watch movies on Flixzone. Been using them for watching a lot of movies lately.
@Levi Layne Yup, have been using flixzone} for since december myself :D
This whole thing is baffling to me. If I wrote a book and got a 4.5 star review I feel like I would be overjoyed.
Right?! Like sure if I wrote a book and someone said "hm, I liked this book, 3 stars!" I might be a little sad but at least they didn't hate it, 4/5 is really good! I do kind of wish goodreads had .5 stars or was just a 1-10 scale
Authors everywhere feel the same. Since when did 4 stars become a bad thing? Or justification for cyberbullying reviewers? As an author, I hope to reach 4 stars. Lauren Hough is the literal *facepalm* of authors everywhere. Rookie mistake. I truly hope her publishers take this into account if considering to continue working with her.
As someone who has worked in the mental health field for far too long, PTSD does not compromise a person's ability to know right from wrong. Stop hiding behind a diagnosis because it waters down mental health.
Exactly. I've dealt with PTSD since early childhood, never in my worst did I think to compare relatively trivial things that bother me to r*pe. It's not only sickening, but deeply insulting.
Right. Narcissism is a personality issue that manifests through behavior. Blaming it on PTSD is unjust to those who suffer from that disorder...as if mental illness isn't already stigmatized.
THANK YOU 🙏
Thank you! I really hate how people, keep perpetuating this myth that further stigmatises people w mental or personality issues and paints them as abusive or dangerous.
This. Especially when we have diagnosed PTSD and don't behave in such an entitled, spoilt and aggressive manner.
I’m still so perplexed by this whole thing. Lauren Hough started all of this by being incredibly rude for no reason and we’re free to choose not to read her books now that we know more about her character. I don’t personally rate books I haven’t read (or DNFd) but I understand why reviewers are upset! Her reaction to the review bombing has been even more offputting than her initial behaviour and I know I won’t ever be reading her work. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this and I love your shirt 😂
I don't get it either, I would love a 4.5 rating, I would be so honoured.
Watching everything unfold on Twitter was truly a wild ride. Every time I thought it couldn't get worse, it did. Like...why aren't you celebrating your release with people? WHY ARE YOU ON GOODREADS. I cannot.
I like, never leave comments on videos but I actually did put her on a "never reading these authors" shelf so I have something of a stake in this! In my personal review, I pointed out that review spaces are not for authors and that the reason many of us were upset was less so the insults (because really, if I had a dollar for every time I've been called an asshole by someone I didn't know, I would not be a cashier lmfao) and more so that she violated the "barrier" between author space and review space. Review websites are not FOR authors. I think it was TJ Klune whose tweet I last saw who said that review spaces have always been curated by and for readers and consumers and I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. It drives me crazy that this isn't even NEW, this whole grown ass authors acting like spoiled children routine. I'm damn near convinced it's a marketing tactic.
Also as a side note, Lauren Hough has me blocked on Twitter... Despite my Twitter being private. Girlie either saw a reply to my tweet or went through the trouble of clicking on my Goodreads profile and following from there, and I genuinely can't decide what's funnier.
Lauren Hough is such an interesting "Twitter Villain of the Week". She captures the combination of entitlement, disconnection from reality and doubling down required to transform a minor moment into a community-wide event. Every time something like this happens I'm reminded that things I think are fairly universal ideas, 4.5 reviews are fantastic (literally an A*), can be seen in wildly different ways by others. Lindsay Ellis's recent video on cancelling has made me genuinely reflect on the schadenfreude I feel at the takedowns of characters like Hough. But the spectacle is so perfectly designed that I doubt the culture will ever move away from it.
As much as I think Lauren is ridiculous I do wonder how necessary feeding the beast is. On the one hand, tools like Goodreads are the only way readers with little real institutional power can get their voices heard. On the other hand, how much will petty things like review bombing actually curb Hough's harmful behaviour? Probably not much.
Lindsay Ellis’s video was an eye opener. It made me reconsider the whole nature of “cancel culture”
I have been feeling "why are we feeding the beast by still talking about Hough" all week. On the one hand, there were a few high profile incidents of authors behaving badly right before I joined BookTube that gave me pause so the community making it clear that this is not good behavior is good. On the other hand, it feels like Hough is still going because we're still giving her individual attention??? Idk.
Edit: correcting some bad autocorrect word choices
Most nuanced comment on this whole drama.
I always look forward to hearing your opinion on issues in this community, and this video was no different. There’s something particularly vile about bullying and lambasting reviewers who, in my experience are predominantly women (especially in that her “grow up” screenshot was of two women) and then attributing any valid criticism OF HER to misogyny, UGH.
Deeply grateful for YOUR role in the book reader/reviewer space. I always leave with something to think about and you’ve never steered me wrong (even on Catherine House).
As a writer myself, I cannot imagine looking at a 4/4.5 star review and being angry? I don't want to call her ungrateful but that's such a glowing review.... I was honestly baffled when you said this started with 4 star reviews...... Like what... is happening........
Thank you for your commentary!! It's always a delight to see ur vids!
An alternative to goodreads is the Storygraph!!
Seconding this! I’m still getting use to not having shelves (I think we can tag books on StoryGraph?), but I love that it spits back all this data about your own reading habits! And I think it encourages more reviews bc they prompt readers with so many questions.
@@BrokenDarkFire you can tag books, indeed! I have been using it as shelves & it works great so far.
Usual Existence this prompted me to fiddle with StoryGraph and figure out my tagging system! Im so excited by how many things are being added to StoryGraph 😍 I feel like either I was very clueless when I first joined in January, or that they really have added a whole bunch of new features.
@@BrokenDarkFire they truly add a bunch of features every other week 😃 I have been using The StoryGraph for the last 10 months & it improves so much since I started. Following the site update/progress on Instagram is fun & insightful too! They also have public roadmap now.
ALSO: love the shirt and extra points to your sister for the amazingly quick turn-around lol
In a strange coincidence as I was driving home I was listening to Lauren Hough on NPR's Fresh Air and Terry Gross complimenting her work then asking her if it was difficult to integrate into society after leaving the cult. Hough talked about how she'd miss cues and often do things perceived as strange, but wouldn't understand what she was doing "wrong”.
Then when I got home I happened to turn on your video. Such whiplash haha!
Not that it is an excuse for treating people terribly, but her background made me understand the people mentioning her PTSD.
I love your videos! Even when I haven't read the books you talk about or am not aware of the drama going on in the online book community, I always find you very engaging.
I agree with the other people saying you should look into Storygraph. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
Yes, I feel like understanding her background gives insight into her behavior and truly, I feel some sympathy for her for sure. It's just like... take responsibility and stop and move on. She just kept GOING.
I tried Storygraph but like very, very early on in the beta days. I might give it another shot, but my first impression is that it didn't quite have the forward facing/social aspect that I use GR for.
That shirt is amazing!
Other than the 1 star reviews, people are behaving reasonably, and what is being asked of them is unreasonable. Lauren Hough, and her supporters, expect absurd things. She gets to insult, intimidate, and block anyone she wants, but still feels owed readers, reviewers, and praise. Perhaps most of all, we're being told she deserves understanding as she offers none.
We're told we don't understand her sense of humor, or her trauma, and that if we read the book we'll get it. But read the book, understand, and do what? Can't share a nuanced opinion on it, that's for sure. The only acceptable response is to become a cheerleader.
The phrase that keeps coming back to me is "one true dream." She feels we're killing her one true dream. But she's sabotaging herself. Again and again. The only thing that still makes me feel a pang of sympathy for her is the evidence that she won't let herself have this, and can't accept her role in not being able to bask in the moment.
I guess in the past she's told people they're lying about their LGBTQA+ identity, and the people against her now are being accused of sexism, even though a lot of her critics are clearly liberal feminists, and members of marginalized identities. It's a lot, knowing she's targeting the pool of people who would have been her best readership.
The one true dream part is very interesting to me too because her book is still published, it's well marketed, it's still charting, and what... it has a bad Goodreads rating? It really is like she can't see the big picture of her own success and because of that is chipping away at what should at least be enjoyment of said success.
@@mynameismarines If her dream was to be a successful, published author, profiled on NPR and the major papers of record, her dream is alive, and it's hers to lose. If her dream is universal praise and love, good luck. No successful book has that, no matter how classic, or well-received, there will be reviews that say, "I didn't like it, and don't get the hype."
The only books with all 5 stars are by indie authors who are begging people to read their books, and can only get friends and family to review. I think they might be willing to trade places with Lauren Hough. Those writers are hustling for the readers, the reviews, the publisher, the team supporting them, and the connections she can't seem to appreciate. They're spending every last dime on editors of varying qualifications, and for a cover that doesn't scream indie, and she's big mad because not everyone is proclaiming her book the very best of the best.
I think the reason I can't look away is because I wanted to read her book. I tried to win it in a Goodreads giveaway, and it was on a list on my phone for a planned book splurge in June, my birthday month. And then the author called people a lot like me nerds, and then blocked them ... and me.
It's like a butcher calling people meat-obsessed losers and getting offended when people pick another butcher. "I've always wanted to own a butcher shop, how dare you not support my dream?"
yessss thank you for talking about bias and objectivity!! One class I took totally changed the way I thought about this-- we had a whole discussion about the topic and how it's much more responsible to disclose your biases than to pretend to be completely objective. It actually, ironically, makes a piece of writing much more trustworthy & reliable, because you have an idea of the creator's perspective. Ever since then, I've always gotten really frustrated when people complain about biases and subjectivity as if these are things that can just be set aside and ignored.
This is exactly it. Just acknowledging biases would got a lot further than pretending we don’t have any. 🙄
I just... what kind of weird mental gymnastics do you have to go through to say "everyone is required to be 100% positive about my artwork all of the time and no one is allowed to say any bad things about what I've done ever. Anyone who says any bad thing about me is clearly an Evil Person" I think you're totally right here - people aren't obligated to read your book, actions have consequences, and bullying=bad is literally something we learn in gradeschool.
It's so wild to me that these feel like super basic things and yet we are having conversations about them... frequently? The number of Tweets I saw from authors lambasting reviews for being biased and subjective... WHAT?
And honestly, there is a place for conversation about the different ways that marginalized authors receive criticism, but this wasn't it. This had nothing to do with Hough being a woman...
@@mynameismarines exactly. And so many authors who think it's appropriate to respond to specific reviewers - and it's kind of been twice in a row now where the response has been to address the singular criticism or the singular negative mention in an otherwise Glowing review - and I just want to remind them... Like, just because something exists doesn't mean it's for you to engage with. You can if you want to, but the evidence and the history suggests that its a Bad Idea and the smart thing is to not do it. Like, don't be surprised people don't wanna hang out with you anymore if you're mean to all their friends?
She compared a 4 out of 5 star review to rape. It's pretty despicable and I'm not sure how people can genuinely justify that.
That shirt is so fantastic 🤣 I found out about this through Mina's video and just... wow. Poster child for what not to do on your book's release day.
What gets me the most out of all of this, is that Hough called people who read "nerds" and a) I think that most of us are proud to be nerds but b) why the hell is she writing a book if she thinks readers are outsiders/uncool crowd or something ... so bizarre
On a more serious note, as you mentioned in the video - marginalized folks are getting bad reviews because the "pronouns in the book are confusing" or that they are "too PC" but then you have an author like this who while yes, she is a part of LGBTQ+ and a woman, but she called TJ Klune misogynistic because he called her out when she was belittling two female reviewers; and made fun of people using trigger warnings while some defended her because she has PTSD... I'm sorry but something doesn't add up.
Another thing is, how can she be upset about 4.5/5 star reviews? Imagine having such a huge ego... I heard lot of writers talking about how one always thinks their work is never perfect and at some point they have to just let it go and publish it. Her perspective was more like: this is a masterpiece and if you don't find it perfect then something is wrong with you.
How did you get the shirt so fast!? 🤣
I need one!!! 😅😅
She explains at the end of the video that her sister made it for her but there's also a teespring link to buy one in the description!
OMW!
I totally understand how you feel about the lack of half-stars on Goodreads and how there aren't any specific things that you can comment on for every book. That's actually one thing that I really like about StoryGraph. Pacing, character development, content warnings, etc. Those things make a big difference to me and I was satisfied enough with being able to import my GR informations. It's not the same at ALL and it's still totally missing the social aspect, but i write all of my reviews there and copy them over to GR when I feel like it.
Anyways, GR is for us to track our own info as hobby readers and people who read for fun and like to share what we are reading and talk about it. I wish that once you became an author you got a "what not to do on goodreads" booklet!!!
I so appreciate the energy you put into this and love the insight you bring to these conversations! We live in such a ridiculous time in terms of who has "a voice" and who doesn't that it's always bizarre to me to see people complain about social media as if it represents the whole world. So many readers aren't on Goodreads or any other review site; so many adults aren't on Twitter. This idea that the world is fully represented by the internet we interact with is bull.
My other thing about this - her book is a set of personal essays. If it's another author whose book is not reliant on their personal history or their personal story, I could see separating the author's personality from their work, but her Twitter presence and her personal history are directly related to why she had a book deal in the first place? Just seems like a "learn to say sorry" moment that she (and her publishing team) seriously fumbled.
“Don’t worry it’s calming tea. I don’t know if it’s working, but it’s calming tea.” 🤣 Marines you are so funny 😂
😂
I don't think the the calming tea worked, but I tried!
I haven't used Goodreads since January. I switched to the Storygraph because I prefer their review set up and their built in Trigger Warning tags.
Thank you for your thoughts on the 1 star reviews and I've definitely change my perspective.
Really didn’t think I needed another take on the Hough fiasco since there doesn’t seem to be any updates, but I’m SO glad I gave it a go because it’s always a treat to find new booktubers you click with. Already subscribed, can’t wait to see more ⛅️
What I would do to just be traditionally published 🤣🤣 like lauren, come on.
Your video basically put into words what I've been feeling watching this go on. I completely agree that this was the kind of situation that would have fizzled out if she had just taken a break. There's a long history of Goodreads being the target of authors (back in my Tumblr days, there was a whole campaign around "Stop the Goodreads Bullies" with huge authors like Anne Rice backing it). Certainly the level of influence of authors varies, but this seemed like a pretty clear weaponizing of her following. Her sales are doing just fine, if not improved by the drama.
Mari, this whole video is brilliant as always, and that part about society putting "inherent value on putting aside our humanity"...OOF. So well-said, and especially in the context of "unbiased reporting" that you mentioned.
Wait, the "star ratings are inherently less valid" thing came up again?? of course
I saw the response to her initial tweets which is how I became aware of the issue, but I didn't realize she came back and made it worse until I watched Jess' video! She just...kept going.
And yes, I'd love to see Goodreads keep that same energy and use it to remove 1-star review attacks from authors who are attacked because of their identity!
Side note, one thing I do think is a little odd is people using this opportunity to brag about how rarely they give 5 star ratings anyway. I feel like this feeds into the weird dichotomy of "star ratings are the worst and if you use them you're not a Real Reviewer" / "if you give out a certain number of high ratings you aren't an intelligent or critical reviewer." Like yeah, if someone *only* gives 5 stars I'm happy for them but maybe not as likely to go to their reviews to help me decide if I want to pick up a book - but likewise, if someone *never* gives a 5 star review and explicitly bases their reviewer credibility on that fact, I also don't think they would be the most helpful resource for me because I don't feel l can trust their reviews. Also weird because as we read and review more, shouldn't we be happy to get better at picking things we'll enjoy??? like isn't that... one of the goals?
Anyway, definitely not the main issue here, just tangentially related thing that's been bugging me lol.
I'm just tuning to all of this today and I'm just real concerned for my friends and fellow reviewers who are suddenly getting a lot of hate for saying basic things like "reviews are subjective "
5:53 thank you VERY much for making what i consider to be an absolute ESSENTIAL designation: one between authors invading reviewer spaces, and then the other side of it, where it's a CONVERSATION, which books are meant to be, in my opinion. i really thought you were putting all of those sorts of interactions under the same umbrella, but now i see that you understand that there is a VITAL difference between the two.
this is very mature and responsible of you, and i appreciate it so much.
So I’m obsessed with you merch and naturally you too. I love you for doing this video. I’ve been deep in my feels over this LH “situation” since I watched her self-destruct on Twitter.
But what bugged me was that she really hasn’t faced any accountability for her pretty awful behavior. When I think about it, a WOC would not have been allowed to just act a fool and get rewarded with a virtual book tour and new media bookings. So disappointing.
I wanted to read this book, but now I’m a hard pass. I just don’t dig the writers getting into the reader spaces.
Stephanie Land was sort of hateful. I didn’t love her snark when defending LH.
The tweeting while high thing is ridiculous. After years of thorough study on the subject, consuming marijuana does not make one “hate tweet.”
Lol! Right!?! If she said she was high it wasn’t weed. She is a lunatic. Having a hard upbringing does NOT give you a ticket to treat others like trash or to think that you are better than everyone else. A good 90% of us could be total douce bags if that were an excuse to be crappy ppl. She has shown her true colors. Be the change you want to see in the world..... and don’t go on a rant days long bc ppl gave you less than a perfect rating. I feel like a four star rating was overshooting anyway. She should have taken it happily and kept her mouth shut. Instead she called reviewers who spent money on her book assholes and nerds. She isn’t Shakespeare.....get over it and quit destroying your own career, Lauren. Anyway.. I just agreed with your reply and say it’s a bs excuse to have acted like a three year old throwin a tantrum bc they didn’t get their way.
I’m rarely on Twitter, so I didn’t know the whole scope of the story (or at least the basic rundown of it), so I appreciate the information. I think 1) the author was ridiculous because 4.5 stars, whether rated up or down on Goodreads, is still fantastic. And 2) I think if an author wants to “do the unhealthy thing” and look at reviews, that’s on them, but to take it in as just feedback. It’s like when you edit a book after it goes through an editor: you don’t have to change or accept every single thing they pointed out.
As far as the 1 star bomb ratings go, I can understand why readers would do that when authors show such unnecessary and aggressive behavior toward readers (among other reasons), but is it always helpful? I’m not sure. It can be, yes, but will it be for everyone? I’m not sure.
I really liked the points you made at the end, Marines! I definitely agree, especially since listening to how you explained it, that reviews are 100% subjective. I know the way I rate books (which has recently changed) will be very different from how you do, or how every other reader does. That’s kind of the beauty of reading: it’s a very personal experience.
That shirt is legit everything 🥰 Thank you as always for the food for thought! I always appreciate that you make me think about these things more deeply
So many good points here omg!
I personally don't like to put reviews for books I haven't read on Goodreads. There are so many ways to tag books in meaningful ways on Goodreads that don't involve reviews (shelves, lists, etc.), so it's not really worth it. Plus I care too much about my shelves being accurate to what I have actually read/ want to read. But also, I think people can use the site however they want (as long as it's within Goodreads terms of service)
Oh to have the complete confidence in your work that Lauren has!
Honestly! Have I ever been that confident in my life?
The statement that critics are lauded and applauded while mere scum of the earth 'reviewers' are reviled is just ... making me laugh. And making me think. Great vid!
Your example about not going to a restaurant makes it so clear! I sometimes understand liking a book and not looking into the author too much... especially if you’re not a big reader. You just want to read something popular or something in the genre you like. But your example here really just hits home how closely linked author attitude and their books really are. That’s a totally valid reason to not want to support somebody. We don’t want to support mean, messy, rude people.
She should've been grateful that anyone read her book in the first place, and even more grateful that she was receiving such positive reviews. I feel secondhand embarrassment from this.
The restaurant analogy is a great one! Really a good way to look at it.
Thank you! 😊
My unrated good reads review got deleted (lol) and I was going to leave it alone but what you said at the end really resonated with me. Publishers, agents, authors, etc are not holding themselves accountable for their bad behavior, so I feel perfectly okay with finding alternate forms of justice, like review bombing. If no one else is going to do it, we as consumers might as well let each other know who exactly we're platforming and spending money on. I think hough's initial actions could've been redeemed to some extent, but once she started weaponizing her white womanhood, dismissing tw/cw, comparing systemic oppression (like nazism and rape culture) to twitter feuding, etc...she fucking lost any sympathy I had. I rewrote my review and also rated it one star this time around. fuck it.
Marines, this is SO good!! That restaurant metaphor, yes, that's exactly it! Of course you don't have to care about the politics or cultural background of chefs as much as authors, and excluding a book from your list has a lot of those, but that's exactly it! Why do I have to be supportive of someone I generally do not agree with just for the sake of fairness? That's intelectual dishonesty to me. You wouldn't judge someone for not going to that restaurant lol
I always bring this up when authors hate *a particular review/reviewer* 1) all books get mixed reviews no single book has EVER gotten completely panned or universal praise and 2) an author should encourage readers or potential readers to read multiple reviews. I plan to be an author one day and I, as a current bookseller, always tell folk to read multiple reviews. I always read multiple reviews. I'll read 10-15 reviews of a title. I go to NPR, NYT, LATims, booktube, GR, Blogs.
I agree with you that people believe or at least talk in such a way that gives the impression that book media people especially small platform ones have a large impact on sales and reception of a work. Most of the readers/book buyers don't care. I say this as a bookseller. Most readers/buyers aren't in the bookish (social) media so have no clue and truly don't want to have a clue.
Yes!!! Even what we collectively consider the best books or even classics get mixed reviews. And I'm the same way! I have people I know read similarly to me, but even so, I just look at a bunch of reviews, high and low, and use all of that to make my best guess about whether a book will be for me.
Yep. All this hooplah about getting cancelled about Book Twitter when that means next to nothing for most people.
@@mynameismarines Another thing I find interesting is when you mentioned that we all limited time and limited money (well most have limited money but that's a separate topic altogether).
Often when I'm at work a customer will ask me for a recommendation and phrase it as "what have read lately" or "have you read anything You really like," and it took me some time to really figure out what that was about because it seemed strange that a stranger would inquire after another stranger's reading taste. What if we have your different tastes? That's when I realized that for many, many readers they outsource the work of finding their next good book. I say that to say that many want a high hit rate when it comes to what they read because they don't have the time or quite frankly the prioritization to develop their taste(s).
These readers will read top (insert number) books of (insert year) and follow what hits bestseller lists and what gets lots of media coverage. This is absolutely fine. I think however that these readers which from my perspective are the majority of readers are what writers fear being turned away because of low ratings or bad reviews, which to be fair is NOT what happened to draw Hough's anger. What are your thoughts?
Honestly, it is out of a writers control whether someone reads or enjoy their work, but they can control how they react to it and man she did a poor job handling her emotions.
You put it very well. The issue is not so much that she was annoyed or maybe even offended by those 4.5 star reviews. It was her reaction to be called out for being super rude and unnecessarily posting and replying and quote-retweeting reviewers who have differing opinions than her. It's very clear who is the one with the fragile ego. Yes, Lauren has not had an easy life, and she has PTSD, as someone pointed out, but she should not be using her platform, which for her should be a professional setting, to call online reviewers mean names. She easily could've deleted her initial thread, and this would not be a huge issue now.
One of my favourite readers is a person who gave a 1-star review to my first book...from back when I was silly enough to respond to reviews lol! 😅
I’m glad I did, though. I’ve made changes to a couple of my books based on reader feedback, but that’s the benefit to being self-published, I get to listen to readers and make changes if they suggest something I agree with. Don’t get me wrong, there are some reviews where they complain about something I’ll never change, but I do want my books to be the best stories they can be.
I like to say, “There’s nothing wrong with a 1-star review. It’s only a problem if you AGREE with it.” 😉
To clarify, I messaged her after I rewrote the book based in part on things she said in her review and offered her a copy of the updated version to review. I wasn’t out here raging at her for 1-starring it. 🤣
Absolutely agree on the energy front. I can't offfhand remember many instances where review bombings happened to poc writers and Goodreads went to the lengths it seems to be with this author. Glad I moved to storygraph
Everyone keeps mentioning Storygraph! I think I tried it too early and have to go back and really commit to using it. Also though, I use Goodreads more socially and so people can find my reviews, and that element felt like it was missing on SG.
@@mynameismarines I started using it during beta and like that they're open to/actively fixing any feedback they get. You can still view profiles on it but there's a removal of the social element which I never got on with GR from all the drama it has. I like, as you said in this video, just tracking everything, posting reviews and getting on with my day!
I really adore you and your channel. Keep this power trip going. 😊
Again, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for a reasonable evaluation of Goodreads and how it functions. I have been long frustrated with people treating Goodreads as though it's a well organized publisher, rather than a messy, fun disaster of a ball pit where everyone who joins can bring their own unique ball, no matter its size, color, or cleanliness.
This is perfect, Goodreads IS a disaster ball pit. And I totally get why people might not play in it but the people standing on the outside going "this isn't an amusement park!" Um, duh.
I love this video. You really broke down everything and explained it very clearly. I appreciate you on this platform and all that you do. Your words are wise and I agree with you.
If you spotted me a week I don’t think I could put together this video the way you did in like...3 hours. As always, you’re insightful yet the way you lay things out so logically point by point just speaks to my Virgo heart.
The way I use GoodReads would probably make some people scream.
And I high-fived my screen when you said “it’s owned by *Amazon*”
So true! Reviews are not objective! They are the personal opinions of the reader. Great video! And yes.. your shirt is everything ♥️
Thank you! My sister was the real MVP of this video.
I love your take on this and totally agree. Pretty much any shared opinion about a piece of media is going to be subjective because people are people. It kills me that this response to Hough got people up in arms, but I read “reviews” all the time on Goodreads where people knock a book for talking about experiences they don’t personally understand or recognize as their own reality. I specifically see this a lot when white readers review books by non-white authors about non-white characters. The repeated refrain of “X, Y, Z is not believable” just hurts my soul. But even though that type of reviewing bothers me, I wouldn’t blame the platform for that. I just don’t trust reviewers who denigrate books that don’t match up with their perceived reality.
Great video. You are so eloquent when you dissect and share your point of view. This was very much helpful.
I'm a Millenial and I started "canceling" companies in the 1990s. I stopped bying Nike over their child labour issue, Nestlé over their powder milk scandal in subsaharian Africa, etc.
So, unsurprisingly I have been "canceling" authors too. I'm not a "mean internet bully" attacking poor struggling clueless authors. I simply refuse to financially support people whose values arent aligned with mind.
I don't know what's better: the shirt or the discussion. Love both!
lol thank you!! I had fun with both.
Wonderful summary and feedback about everything going on. Thank you for this.
Ok first, lip color and nail color 🔥🔥🔥. Second, buying this shirt. Third, excellent video per usual. I cackle at anyone who says their review is objective. I also like/hate goodreads, I’m honestly just too lazy to move everything to another platform 😫
Thank you!!!
I tried Storygraph when it was just coming out but it didn't totally sell me enough because I use GR more socially. It sucks I'm still there tbh.
I don't think people should hate review books that they've never read but also it's absolutely her own fault and you do not get to act like a spoiled brat without repercussions. All authors should take notes
This was SUCH a good video. You brought your points across so well. I really related to the bit about subjectivity - people have different preferences for different genres??? I have found I'm not much of a fantasy person generally, for some reason I just can't make myself care and I get so lost and I don't understand what motivated the entire plot to begin with. For example The Raven Cycle - I REALLY wanted to love this series and I did read all 4 (audiobook) but I just could not for the life of me pay attention and care about the characters or plot
Wonderful video, Marines. I agree with all of your thoughts and opinions on this utterly bizarre situation. There's a very small part of me that feels some empathy for this lady... her extreme reactions to 4/4.5 star reviews is alarming. There's obviously... a lot (for lack of a better word) going on with her mentally/emotionally, but the way she's treated and spoken to others is just horrendous, and pretty much smothers any sympathy I have for her. I don't know... *sigh* Watching this "drama" play out has left me feeling shocked, disgusted, and very sad. I feel absolutely terrible for the people she's attacked, but I also really do hope she seeks help, or that the people in her life who truly love and care about her encourage her to do so (and aren't actually feeding her ego and this terrible behaviour).
I had considered writing reviews on goodreads, and after this I won't, I wouldn't feel safe doing so.I foolishly thought book reading was a peaceful endeavour.
marinessssss this is so funny!! thank you for your commentary and insight!
yes to everything that you said here. bless that shirt! just gotta keep speaking our truth because that's the whole point of reading and sharing our thoughts and these authors just gotta figure their shit out or we'll continue to call out the fuckery. like the privilege and audacity and caucasity of it all.
Storygraph allows quarter and half stars (and also isn't owned by amazon)!! Highly recommend to those looking for an alternative to goodreads :)
I just found your channel and this was such a fast sub for me. I feel like I’m learning so much from everything you say! You are amazing!
“I don’t really have questions about reviews being subjective” 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I mean you are 100% right but it still made me giggle
What really gets me is the "Grow up" tweet. I don't understand what's so immature about the screenshot she posted along with it, it really doesn't make sense to me.
You always have interesting takes on things, and I completely agree. I think the main issue is that Lauren Hough doesn't realize that reviews are for the READERS, so harassing and insulting us reviewers/readers for less than a 5-star review is not a good look. Also, a five-star review is -- for a lot of us -- reserved for the créme de la créme, and a rating we don't easily hand out. I know I don't. And instead of apologizing she puts on a Victim-hoodie and tells us we should excuse her hurting words because she's hurt by the consequences of her own damn actions. People didn't give her book a 1 star because she's a woman (which she claims), but because she uses her platform against the very people who tried to praise her book. And then calling TJ KLune a "m*therf***er"?! Excuse you, Lauren, you canceled yourself.
Hi sister! Great video and awesome shirt! (Wink,wink) I’ve never heard of this lady, and didn’t have a clue of anything going on, but I’m walking away from this video feeling very enlightened. Great job explaining everything.
The real MVP!
That shirt! 🙌🙌🙌 I love/hate goodreads but it is what it is. This whole thing has been a mess and it really put me off of ever reading one of her books in the future.
I had the same issue with good reads so I changed to story-graph. It's a more personal approach (imo) to reading and also DECIMAL POINTS
I adore storygraph so much! I never tracked my reading bc I dislike everything about goodreads. Storygraph is so fun but also never makes me feel pressured
YES!! Everything is subjective and all reviews/opinions will always be influenced by our biases and worldview!
I'm always enlightened by your discussion videos, Marinés. I agree completely about the whole "subjective/objective" issue. I don't even want to divorce my life experience from my reading. ¡Pa'lante!
Personally, I think if a book made you angry that is a factor that needs to inform the review! Other people might choose not to read it to avoid getting mad
When you tweeted about how strange it is that authors review their own books I almost commented about how its weird when their friends/spouses also review it (at least, I don't think I replied? I second guessed because I think that's a muddier territory but my memory's been awful recently).
I mentioned on twitter that I think this could have led to a dialogue about applying a rating system to a memoir that explores deep personal trauma, but it just didn't. I also feel like her initial tweet was a serious misstep, but one that you can recover from. It wasn't like she said something heinous, she just said something kind of dumb and nasty. Like you said, booktwitter has a short memory and if she hadn't doubled down this probably would've just turned into "hey remember when x happened?" if it ever came up again at all
Im sorry if this is rude or inappropriate, but you are absolutely stunning. You glow in these videos.
No this is so sweet and flattering! Thank you for the kind words and for watching ❤️
That restaurant comparison was just logic we don't deserve in this world lol
Great video as usual Marines!
For me, my decision to support a author, person, or business comes down to where do I want my *hard earned* money to go to. I want to support people who are doing good things in the world, so if a person or company‘s behavior goes against my own morals, I wanna make sure my money doesn’t go there. I’m so sick of people acting like that’s a bad thing!!
Yes on the shirt!!
Oh my gosh! Bought a shirt mid-video watching. Thank you!!!! 💕💕
Your thoughts and the way you express yourself are just wonderful. And that is one super-weird way of reacting to a great review. I'm more than confused. And seriously, my reviews are totally subjective. I can give four stars to a book that is not nearly as good as another four-star-book. And I only give five stars to books that are my favorites. And I review books in categories. A fantasy book that gets four stars is not rated the same way as a detective story that gets four stars. :D So yeah... It's hard. :)
Thank you so much! And yes, I feel like ratings and reviews also depend on what a book is trying to achieve! And that comparison within genre is real too. There are just so many different things that go into our ideas of if a book is good and if we enjoyed it that any call for objectivity is WILD to me.
Wow. Hough is a hot-ass mess. All she had to do was write the book, sit back, and receive the accolades. Instead, she threw it all into the trash.
@@80sCanadian So, she's gotten her 15 minutes. At what cost in the long run, though?
She may have more sales right now in the short term, but people as volatile as Hough is are going to continue to create problems for themselves in the future. It will come back to bite her at some point in the future.
@@Amy-rt7br I'm inclined to agree. Her bad behavior may work as a selling point the first time around, but one can see that she's the type to keep her heels dug into the hill she'll eventually die on.
Only just noticed the shirt halfway through the video 😂😍
I'm just beginning the video, but dropping a comment to tell you I love your channel
This is exactly it!!! Thank you for putting this so perfectly 😍
Thank you for watching! 🥰
can i just say those nails are on point. Also i love the dialogue!
I have seen one star reviews given to Jane Eyre, Moby Dick, Heart of Darkness and The Old Man and the Sea. Sales haven't gone down, new editions are constantly published and the authors have not complained. They haven't come after the reviewers either.
well those specific authors can’t on the account that they’re dead 🧍🏽♀️
I wonder what her publisher thinks of her actions. They’ve already invested money on her and her book so they can’t afford her to fail but surely her actions must have some real word consequences. 🙄
I imagine this was not a fun week to be on her team or work at the division that publishes her, honestly. Even if the book will be fine, this is some version of a worst case scenario for everyone behind the scenes.
this whole video is so good & i just love you so much
This is the first video of yours I've ever watched and I thoroughly enjoyed your analysis of this issue. You basically vocalize all of my thoughts on the situation, you just did it way better than I ever could 😆 As for reviewing and particularly rating books you haven't read that's a huge no for me. Hough may be an asshole but that doesn't negate the fact that she can also be a brilliant writer. Ultimately, like you said, the average reader who is not immerse in this space like we are will pick up her book and never know any of this even happened 🤷🏽♀️
What is absurd is that she freaked out over a 4 star review. OUT IF FIVE!!! That's like a near perfect score lmao.
She could’ve taken her W and ran.
@@mynameismarines For real. Like you're a best seller, ma'am. C'mon. It's just not healthy for anyone to engage like this.
I only consider goodreads a source of info about books. I trust the reviews of the few I follow, but my opinions diverge sharly from the average reader on goodreads, so I don't go by the ratings for the most part. I use the site organizationally to track my reading, completed and planned.
I almost never give 5 stars. I give 4 to great books I really like. And I will round up or round down based on overall (subjective) feeling about the book. The ratings are for me, and if someone else uses them, it's at their own risk.
Imagine having Roxane Gay give your debut book five stars, and then Cate Blanchett is the narrator of it and you don't celebrate just being published but you go off on 4,5 stars review... For me Goodreads is a site where I talk to fellow book readers, buddy read with them, and keep track of my reading. I can't even grasp these objective-subjective talks. Reading is subjective and so are my reviews. Great point, where are all the uproars when racists rate Michelle or Barack's book one star... I know that there are petty one-star reviews now, but does she really thinks that everyone will love her book and will not have plenty of opinions on it in the future?!
Set up for success!! And by all previous accounts, a probably above average collection of essays. Apart from not wanting to support someone who thinks I'm an idiot, I also have a feeling now that I wouldn't exactly jive with Hough's world view and so that's another reason to avoid it for me but... read by Cate Blanchett??? A SHAME.
Very classy and well stated response to an issue. Just subscribed.
GR: *causes catastophe because of the lack of decimal star rating system.*
The Storygraph: "Excuse me. Do you have time to talk about our lord and saviour?"
The Storygraph love in these comments is strong!
Welp, I have now watched videos from you, Jess Owens, Mara (bookslikewhoa), and Mina (Mina Reads) talking in some capacity about this Lauren Hough, um, situation. It's a TRIP for sure.
I admit that there was one time I reviewed and rated a book even though I had DNF'd it at 50%. I've since taken away the rating because I realized/learned a bit late that, yeah, that's not really a fair thing to do. I did leave my review, which I felt was okay because I did make it clear I had DNF'd the book and was simply commenting on what I had read.
I don't actually read Goodreads reviews, and will give a rating, but only occasionally will I give a written review, and they are not very long. I keep a reading journal, where I will write more thorough thoughts that I can decide to post or I keep just for myself.
I bought the shirt already. ♥️🌿
Ha! You are so right and your T-shirt is perfection!
Of course GoodReads reviews are subjective, how could they not be? That’s the whole point of the site! And even professional reviews are subjective, because reviewing books are all about this one person’s perceptions, no matter what their competence; whether they are well equipped and well read or not, ultimately the review will be influenced by their personality and experience. :D
I’m on GoodReads too and I read & review books in 4 languages. I’ve had authors and their fans attack my reviews and I never engage. Why am I supposed to defend my opinions about a book? I know that that opinion might be different if I were in a different mood or if my life circumstances were different at the moment. Ehhh
I will probably read this book, because it does sound interesting to me. I don’t care if the author doesn’t like my opinion. It’s fine. :) It’s not the type of problematic that would keep me from wanting to check out the book.
Now on to Jess’s vid!
There are so many complex points around this whole issue--author/reader relationship, bias, weaponization of mental health, etc. But, the funniest thing to me is that when you calculate the one that rounded down with the one that rounded up, you get a 4.5 star average, which was what they were aiming for. Between the two of them they gave the rating they thought the book deserved and she caused all of this ruckus.