This isn't related to this review, but some of your comments about abolition made me think of Lacy M. Johnson's Reckonings. To be fair, I think about Johnson's story a lot when I think about what justice might look like in certain situations. Johnson was kidnapped and assaulted by an abusive ex who fled to his mother's home in Venezuela after she escaped and alerted authorities. The US does not have an extradition treaty with Venezuela, so Johnson does not have any kind of legal recourse. Johnson writes in the beginning of Reckonings (which has a perfect title btw) that often at speaking events people make comments to her along the lines of how injust her situation is; but she questions what justice would be for her and her ex. Hearing what he did makes it easy to want vengeance, but vengeance does not restore people or make the public safe. It's driven by hate and a fear of identifying with perpetrators, feelings that center the people commenting instead of victims. It is easy for me to look at Cait Corrain's review-bombing with disdain because I have not done those specific actions. I didn't try to hurt others out of insecurity with no care to whether I was perpetuating marginalization in the process in her specific way. I don't have to deal with myself if I look at Corrain and say, "Yeah, that was abusive." But if I zoomed out and nitpicked all my own habits and behaviors, there's bound to be some unexamined prejudices in there. Corrain is accountable for the things she's done, but the (hopefully) unconscious bias that drove her behavior is probably easier to identify with than most of us who condemn her are comfortable with admitting to ourselves. I'm not claiming to know exactly the most ethical way to discuss Corrain or the authors she targeted, but I do think it's fair to pause and point out that condemning Corrain on its own is not enough for the reading community to engage honestly with the systemic problems in publishing this kerfuffle called attention to. The issue is bigger than her, but making her the problem is a convenient way to distract from the fact that there are many more people in publishing more powerful than Corrain who aren't publicly being held to account for their behavior. Those conversations aside, I think engaging honestly with the titles Corrain targeted is the kindest thing you can do as a reviewer for those authors and their books. They deserve to have their work taken seriously after Corrain tried to make them the football in the little game she tried to play.
Thank you so much for such a thoughtful comment. It really captured exactly what I was trying to have a discussion about, though probably trying to have it in the heat of everyone's anger at Corrain wasn't the best. It felt like it was easy at that moment to make Corrain the fall guy for lots of larger frustrations with publishing and the kinds of biases that make navigating it even more difficult for authors of color. And it felt like I, as a member of that community, was being asked to say that Corrain had earned it and all of the punishment the community saw fit to dole out afterward. It felt like everyone turned into a cop and, with almost gleeful joy, jumped at the chance to finally catch a bad one. And thank you for saying that about engaging honestly with these works. The comments are great so far, but should this turn south on me, I'll keep your words in mind that I respect these authors by taking their work seriously. ♥
@@mynameismarines Thank you for your kind reply, marines. I think when situations like reviewbombgate arise, it's sort of like turning on the light to your basement, realizing you have rats, and then putting all your energy into catching only one rat. Like, yes you don't want that rat there, but if you pay attention to only the one, you're still living with the others. But doing it that way avoids the hassle of calling an exterminator and figuring out why the rats got in their in the first place. And if you don't really mind having rats in your basement, you can still feel good about how you really stuck it to the one rat. I do sympathize with people who might have seen this situation unfold on the sidelines feeling a bit protective of the authors targeted by review bombs because they have always seemed to have the least amount of agency in this situation. They have been subjected to tangible harm AND had to navigate collectively how to respond in a way the minimized the distraction caused by the drama. An unfortunate side effect is that someone who rightfully sympathizes with these specific authors might be quicker to interpret honest criticism as an attack. It's good not to want to see these authors and their debuts be harmed further by the spectacle, but "I didn't like these aspects of the book" is not "Don't read this book." Whatever a person's feelings about Corrain, she clearly wrote those abusive reviews in the hopes other people would form an opinion of these books WITHOUT READING THEM. It's the same reason she gave her own book five stars. But it's not the star rating that communicates to other readers "This book is worth reading and discussing." Reading and discussing the books is what does that.
Truly! I think if I was in the shoes of these debut authors, I'd be kind of thrown off if no one negatively reviewed my book on launch. Every book put to print has lovers and haters, whether those reasons are genuine or not matters little. If I published my debut after being talked about as one of the "authors targeted by Cait Corrain" and all of my reviews were nothing but positive? I'd know it was because of pity, and I'd have to ask "how many of these positive reviews were left out of pity?" An author deserves your honest opinion. Honesty isn't being rude in the reviewing world, and it's a shame that so many people have to fear honestly reviewing books for fear of hurting the author's feelings or upsetting the author or their fanbase. Honest reviews tell other readers, hopeful authors, and publishers, what we like and what we don't.
It is ironic that Cait Corrain is one of the reasons Molly Chang and a lot of the targeted authors will become bestsellers, even if just for a few weeks. Now it’s to be seen which of them can carry on that momentum into lasting and impactful careers. Given this book I don’t think Chang is one of them, but who knows, she may grow with her next series. But it is unfortunate that her book is getting all this attention since it’s so poorly written. A quieter debut experience might have benefited her.
@@ingridfitz5677 I agree, but I think some readers feel protective of the books and authors targeted in reviewbombgate. Intentional or not, Corrain made these titles personal to many people besides the authors themselves. I don't think it hurts to remind readers before beginning a review that the fact that this book has been subjected to a personal attack does not mean any criticism is in bad faith.
Jade is also a special gem in Chinese culture and it’s a fantastical story so I think that was the bigger part there. Not everyone is just idolizing white features or rather what y’all assume are white features(my non white self has green eyes)it’s a genetic mutation so...white people knowing y’all are who y’all are and then trying to ride a high horse in this conversation or similar ones is wild to me lol.
@@Nothereforit174 i am taking asian art and the class is currently discussing ancient china and the amount of jade artifacts that was discussed in that portion is wild.
@Nothereforit174 genuine question: can you explain how the significance of Jade in real life Chinese culture is still an important symbol in this book, when the book is fantasy and the author is using different real world inspirations in ways that are subversive and don't retain their original meaning? I don't understand how we are meant to assume or understand that Jade is an important element in this book when the book itself never tells us that Jade is important to Ruying's culture.
@@Nothereforit174You are coming into this conversation trying to change the subject to being about 'well jade exists and was considered valuable' instead of the obvious joke about the ancient trend of 'but it's not war crimes when pretty people do it' in fiction. And your effort is TRANSPARENTLY for the purpose of exploiting the idea of racism and its victims to deflect writing criticism. I get that you got real excited when you saw DeSantis and his ilk continue to use the idea of CSA to attempt to crush social progress and thought 'hey, I can wave the specter of serious issues in the air to get away with crap too!' but do you think people can't observe you in the other reply threads on this video yelling about how actually, authors are justified in harassing reviewers because authors are INCAPABLE of ignoring randoms on the internet and also, some people don't like Colleen Hoover books and that makes you angry. Do you think no one can recognize that your argument has as much ideological or intellectual integrity as millionaire instagram scammers whining that criticizing them is just sexism and is setting back women's rights.
@@YesHelloHiGoodbye dang now we don’t believe her because she’s an author of Manchurian descent. That’s basically it. You would never tell someone their great grandfather was allegedly a Holocaust victim. People really show their ass-I mean true colors, on booktube. You just told her and her grandfather his life is a lie
I’m ready to read this book. Manchurian authors really need support as a marginalized group from her home country. I’m okay with actually getting my own interpretation and not just leaving her to drown in the rape and death threats she’s getting for even daring to be an author. Kind of disappointed to see a campaign to take her down this early though but I believe in Molly. I think there’s more to this(and it doesn’t even meet the requirements for a romance nor is it officially marketed as one) and I want to see more women of color and youth be uplifted. I’m sad to see us getting shot down before we take off. Even if we call it romantic, his name is Antony, I think it’s a reference to cleopatra‘s political love affairs and also palace dramas. She watches c dramas all the time. She knows concubine history and how they sacrificed to save their clans. Stories can be complex and challenging
@Nothereforit174 except chang is marketing it as romantic explicity. If you go to her TT page you will see "enemies to lovers" & "when he's the enemy prince" & "Zutara on steroids." I agree that WOC authors should be uplifted! But the very first complex negative reviews of this book were also from WOC who rightfully pointed out that they felt this was handled so so poorly. She absolutely doesn't deserve threats and harassment. But I couldn't believe she actively put a letter stating the book was inspires by Unit 731 and then still thought readers would sympathize with that kind of love interest. It's too jarring.
@@Nothereforit174 Rape and death threats are disgusting and I don't condone harassment of the author but acting as if the majority of us aren't just giving her book valid criticisms is wid. A campaign to take her down? Most people are just stating how poorly she handled something EXTREMELY traumatic to a large group of people. She also literally called it zutara on steroids so what do you mean not officially marketed as romance? It was called an enemies to romance romantasy. Also btw the majority of her critics are also poc but ok uplift her book at the expense of the rest of us. Hope you enjoy your Unit 731 inspired coloniser romance, I mean that sincerely.
Please, in going back through Chang's social media, someone in my discord found a Tweet where Molly said that young Snow (from Ballad) gives big Antony energy. YOU WERE SO RIGHT.
I hope you never let the ignorance of the world let you stop your long form discourse on books. I absolutely love listening to your deep dives and find your discussions so wonderful to listen to.
Ignorance of the world? I would like yte people to stop painting their ignorance and it’s trickle down in the States(and places they’ve interfered via the government) to some people, as world ignorance. It’s very uncomfortable, American centered, and insulting
This comment was literally referring to comments I receive calling me negative. Your response has nothing to do with what they said. Please, find somewhere else to jump to conclusions in order to defend this book.
I had so many questions left about what was happening on Earth. All we learn is that something something pollution. Antony references Romeo and Juliet and quotes Taylor Swift, but we have no other idea of what it means that the Roman empire advanced into the space age. It made everything feel hollow.
@@mynameismarinesyes it would be so interesting to get all the details about this alternate Roman Empire! It’s millennia of alternate history that could be great if it was actually explored.
Everything is mediocre nowadays. Big budget movies, a lot of traditionally published books, mainstream pop music. It's about making as much profit as possible in as little time as possible and with the least possible amount of effort. This is why pop music all sounds bloodless and Computer-generated these days.
The fact that the book went viral in China and Korea for the Unit 731 aspect says a lot. Basing a book off of a real life genocide means the topic needs to be handled with care and sensitivity. The Japanese Occupation didn't just happen to the author's family but to the family of others as well
@@sarahtonin646 Hey there. I can't link to these posts for some reason. But from my observation, they seem to be mostly confused and disgusted? Both Koreans and Chinese were mocking her "American ignorance". There were also quite a few comparisons to the Holocaust from both sides. EDIT: I just realized how vague my words sounded. I mean to say netizens were comparing the romance to a Holocaust prisoner falling in love with a Nazi officer.
I'm a Chinese diaspora person who has been following the discourse closely before the doxxing allegations began, before Molly got sent death threats. Frankly, I'm not upset about the book as much as I'm upset about Molly backtracking and painting every Chinese person who's critical as mere ethnonationalists and incels. "Fiction is just fiction" people defended Molly on the basis that she's POC, that it's her history to tell but what about those who felt differently about the ARC AND shared that culture or/and history? There were other Asians colonized by Japan opposing the book as well and a good portion of Chinese people mad typically tweet fandom stuff, not even involved in campist politics. I followed this trans guy from China who wrote polite, nuanced replies to her thread denying Unit 731 influences and she hid his comments that made her book look bad and privated straight after. That really soured my opinion of her. How the discourse was framed made us look heartless, a hivemind and simply lack media literacy. It, weirdly enough, felt akin to western perceptions of asian countries.
@@sarahtonin646 A lot of Chinese people disliked the book from what I've read, calling it a "colonizer romance". I don't condone Cait Corraine's behavior one bit, though I do understand it--which are totally different things. I saw Molly's original post, BTW, asking if the one star reviews were "review bombing" and I posted they weren't. I spent 3 hours of my time sorting it for her, putting up screenshots to show they were genuinely 1 star reviews from legit people, and one 3 star review from a legit UA-camr. The verdict was that several of the reviews came from people who were genuinely affected by the experiments through generational trauma and were annoyed at the book. But they didn't like it for legit reasons, though another reviewer (the UA-camr) said maybe the love interest would change and was wrong (the childhood friend). I also mentioned that the reviews were from Chinese people as well--some of them Chinese Americans, not just Chinese. I put up receipts such as the profiles to prove they were there for a long time, that they showed they had read the reviews. She attempted to delete/hide all of my replies to her thread about that, though, to be fair I'd done it in kindness so she would know they were legit reviews and she should not worry about people pouring in with fake accounts. The kerfuffle, though, came at her expense after that... when someone white decided to label it "Dark Romance" (which isn't what Molly labeled it as) who tried to argue against any Asian women being negatively reviewed. This then led them to try to doxx the Asian reviewers, who then got harassed and Molly didn't try to defend them, which made things worse. Then the Chinese community became raging upset that Molly was willing to let negative reviewers be doxxed and yadda yadda. (Personally, mostly I wanted to keep the record straight). I'm not about all that drama. I dislike it. But I also dislike lying too. She kept up a post that effectively had them hunt the reviewers down, heard about the doxxing, didn't do anything, and let one of her white fans chase after them instead of saying no, leave my reviewers alone... but also that one white "defender" was freaking weird in a fetishist way and willing to outright lie. But yeah, the Chinese community is upset at this point about the whole thing. Personally, I'm hands off. Don't doxx people. Wrong. Don't send death threats. Also wrong. But also don't lie about reviewers. Also wrong. And don't keep up a post where you know it's not true where it will allow others to be doxxed. Also wrong. And don't sit back when you know someone is being wrong and asking others to hound down your reviewers, no matter what star rating they give. (But I also understand that asking people to do PR is hard) BTW, My Korean family was also affected by the Japanese occupation in living memory. My mother's side of the family were forced to use the names from that occupation. Despite that, I think centering Chinese voices is more important and they dislike the contents of the book as they've read it by and large. And also dislike a gentile white person invading their space saying But But Nazi romance gets published. (The person who spoke isn't Jewish).
I love (ironically ofc) that not only is the love interest, well, a colonizer, he's literally THE colonizer !!! Literally one of the most powerful people that uphold oppression and genocide
And the whole this is that his grandfather and brother and maybe father are WORSE!!! And we are also supposed to see that he was idk raised a colonizer, which is a fine starting point for an ARC but a less fine starting point for a ROMANCE. To me at least…
And the author calling it Zutara when the entire point of Zuko is that he is the Least Colonizer, he was purposefully isolated from radicalization and demoted to a completely powerless fleet captain, which is why he fell into the cycles of violence and backslid so violently; he was a good kid, but because he was coddled by the propaganda, he couldn't engage with what the very real pain of being taken over by an empire looked like. What kind of reading comprehension you have to have to compare it to an adult man actively participating from one of the greatest positions of power in the empire ???!!
@@necrofish00even if Zuko was the best of them, even then I could not handle the Zutara ship by virtue of the colonizer-colonized dynamic. this book sounds like a nightmare
@@necrofish00even if zuko may be leagues better than the love interest on molly and chang's novel, in the end zuko still participated and contributed to the war in favor of fire nation makes zutara fanfics problematic, mainly because a lot of the zutara writers romanticize the "spiciness" of the problematic tension between zuko and katara while completely leaving out zuko's character development that made him redeemable. They just want zuko to stay as a book 1 jerk in order to maintain that "spiciness" because that is coded as "hot" in their books rather than make zuko progress for the better for the sake of himself, for everyone, and for katara. And if a lot of zutara writers are like these, then i wouldn't be surprise why molly and chang's novel went down like this considering they hinted zutara as one of their influences.
I firmly believe that having a personal connection (cultural, ethnic, familial, or a combination of these) to a historical atrocity does not automatically entitle someone to write fictional work about that atrocity, especially if they are going to make money off it. They must also do the work to make sure that their depiction respects the experiences of those who lived through it: this means doing a significant amount of historical research, listening to or reading first-hand accounts of survivors, and hiring MULTIPLE sensitivity readers. They must be willing to accept criticism about how they talk about and/or depict that atrocity. It seems clear that Molly Chang did not do such work.
I think this also works with writing mental illnesses and physical disabilities. Just because you experienced it doesn’t mean you're properly equipped to tell a story about it. I have depression and anxiety, and I quickly realised, while writing a character with the same mental disorders, that I am perpetuating the stigmas and stereotypes of those disorders. I had to pause and just unravel what I had internalised because what I wrote was problematic and definitely not written in a way I wanted. All I'm saying just because you have these illnesses ect doesn't automatically make you an expert when it comes to writing characters with them. Sensitivity readers are important and you have to be aware that even with best intentions you could write something offensive without meaning to. These are just my two cents on this topic.
i also think it has to do with how far removed someone is from the issue itself too. i am in the same spot as Molly- financially comfortable American Chinese with family ties to traumatic Chinese historical events (though mine are related to the cultural revolution). Even though our families and culture are Chinese, we don't personally experience the effects of these events the way our parents, grandparents did. SHE has never personally seen or experienced anything remotely close to what happened to Chinese ppl during imperial Japan. There are only 2 more comfort women still alive from during that time, at the very least having someone related closely to the events + historians + sensitivity readers give feedback would be the minimum. theres a whole other talk to be had with her privilege as a upper middle-upper class asian american absolutely changes her perspectives compared to families in China who still feel the emotional and financial effects of japanese imperialism. also she has an American school education, which is certainly different than those in Korea and China in how they approach the analysis of the atrocity. She (and I) have an unconscious american bias towards these events, and a western way of thinking (not inherently a bad thing but given the events are from Asia.. its is definitely different than those growing up/living in Asia)
Incredibly alarming. It's been an ongoing trend, and on top of that, I feel like the Cait Corrain situation emboldened authors to step into review spaces for this kind of "investigation."
@@MJSpiceyou affect their career so no. You don’t get to benefit from their work nor engage with it like they don’t exist once it’s out there. Now if you had a book club in private that’s your business but when you take it online and it can affect them on a large scale, they can’t ignore it. Partially for feedback and because some of you are genuinely silly or bad people and they need to put the breaks on it when someone trashes a book arcs aren’t even out for or starts review bombing because they thought something was bad and it was just personal interpretation. I mean Hoover is a perfect example. Critics regularly applaud how she handles real life situations but a whole campaign exists in reader spaces to stop a woman’s career, as if publishing isn’t already male ran enough, because people think books are supposed to set an example when that was never a thing until randoms online started getting pissy over irrelevant stuff that essentially boiled down to they didn’t read the trigger warning and they didn’t like her writing style so now she’s a bad author to warn everyone away from 🙄and half of them are kids who don’t know much of anything yet(they’re just offended by a comment about big balls and conflated that with violation of a baby because they can’t first understand the baby isn’t real, writers will write detestable characters as a norm(hello Lolita), and that’s it’s not saying do it to have something in a book but also parents can see and I bet they do have silly thoughts changing diapers at 4 am) .That’s the thing people haven’t learned yet. They literally have to market to you lol. You’ll always be in the same spaces. And they’re also readers. They just create too.
The distinction between depiction and endorsement is SO important. I saw someone on TikTok calling The Green Bone Saga by Fonda Lee and The Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang misogynist. The female characters in these books DO experience misogyny but it’s being depicted, not endorsed as far as I could tell.
Right! I remember reading a Reddit post complaining that Fonda Lee was engaging in some #menwritingwomen because she has the narration neutrally note that a secretary is wearing a translucent top. The intent isn’t titillation or a gratuitous description of every female character’s appearance, it’s a clue that the character we’re here to meet-this woman’s boss-is a creep in a position of power. This isn’t deep symbolism: it’s an example of “show, don’t tell.”
@@---ul9eq Which characters and why? I read the Green Bone Saga and Untethered Sky and thought the female characters were well written. They experience misogyny but this is depiction rather than endorsement.
Can someone please explain to me why anyone thinks taking REAL LIFE human experimentation, eugenics, genocide, etc and using it as inspiration for enemies to lovers this way is ok??? I think enemies to lover romance in a war setting is ok but why would anyone think this specific variety is romantic or a good idea? How about we just have the love interests be on equal footing like reluctant spies or soldiers from opposing sides and actually treat war with appropriate nuance?
- white and/or imperialist guilt and the apologetics it produces - the failure to do the work to actually humanize another person who has been historically and/or is still being currently subjugated and dehumanized by the ruling class you are a part of, so fetishization is where the dust settles. - tendency of creators with dogshit media literacy to think they can write functionally the next Lolita level critique of topic - I genuinely don’t know either why people who invoke this sort of evil don’t at least try to mitigate it by creating the sorts of complex relationships that still have the burden of that horrific power imbalance but may have been feasibly more real- settlers who have basically no power to alter their empire, settlers who were already waking up to the propaganda of their empires, those born by occupant parents who have no value or use to a fascist empire like the disabled, the queer, the lowest socioeconomic groups, who would actually have a concept of their empire’s evils to connect to an indigenous population over. Even these aren’t great, I don’t enjoy reading fiction about these because I am tired of the sexual and romantic invasions of indigenous people’s lives and bodies by any colonial group being served up as the perfect food for my little white eyes. I don’t have an interest in uncritically consuming the watering down of human atrocities to have my little drenched basement over The Notebook moment. - it might just be ghoul shit. And I don’t know why that happens to people or why they seem to enjoy an imperial self wank position.
Referencing real life events is not necessarily a complete Taboo, as long as it is done with a lot of care. The Poppy War references many real life events of Japanese Imperialism (if ykyk) and British colonialisation, but I had never seen it been be under same scrutiny as this book since The Poppy War portrays these events as horrific, traumatising and afronts to humanity. I also feel referencing the king to be similar to Zuko is just disingenious. I don't mind Zutara, but in canon, Zuko's whole redemption arc would be cheapened if it was viewed from a romantic lens. It's much more satisfying to have a character completely deconstruct the long-held beliefs and rebuild their ownself from the ground up based in a fundamental change in their own thinking/morals. Having a change of heart because he was in love with the protag and she inspired the colonising to be exorcised from his body just feels much more cheaper.
Yeah and even atla fumbled its incredibly well handled bag when it made Zuko the next fire lord of a genocidal monarchy that needed to be dissolved instead of continuing to be framed as a system that could work just fine in the right hands; tbh same with the earth kingdom in regards to its bureaucracy and monarchical structures creating a system that was incredibly susceptible to fascist control. We don’t know what the air nomad temple societies needed to revise within their systems of power because they are destroyed before media res. The only society wide change seen is in the southern water tribe’s nation, regarding their stances on gender roles and women’s rights. For as well as it did truly humanizing Zuko, atla is not perfect and has a lot of colonialist flaws- and it’s often an impossible standard for newer media that attempts to discuss and frame stories within imperial regimes and colonial fascism :( I woke up from a piece of media that in large part portrayed a mixed relationship between the heir of a monarchic, theocratic, ethnonationalist colonial empire, stating multiple times in its canon that the creator and world itself both believe intimate relationships between the direct oppressor and their immediate victims are “proof” the colonizers’ racism is unreasonable and will fail. And yes, it is cheap and shallow and vile. The question, “how can you think of your partner as dehumanized when you form romantic and/or sexual relationships with them?!” is literally answered by misogyny in heterosexual relationships. That this creator could understand just fine that a patriarchal man’s desires for romantic, emotional, and sexual intimacy from women he completely dehumanizes is never going to be what stops patriarchal dehumanization but the second she realizes she’s more aligned with the oppressor and attacker than the marginalized and victimized, suddenly her white imperial love MUST be the solution to race relations that were created by her empire alone. Incredible.
I don't understand why, 9 times out of 10, it's about pairing an FMC with her abuser or colonizer. And then the way it's all sanitized as "enemies" or "morally gray" makes me just mad.
@@mynameismarines ikr? It's like the erotica trope of the bad boy is infecting everything now and each bad boy must one up the last one in badness. My favorite enemies to lovers construction is competitors to lovers. It's in Anne of Green gables as an example (although mostly in Anne's head haha)!
That’s you if you read bad books. Anyway. Concubines were often enemies of their lovers. I guess we have to not reference Chinese history now. It’s too mean and women have never had to do things to protect their their people(or try like cleopatra). Let’s sanitize everything. But seriously nobody made you read abusive literature lol. The last enemies to romance books I saw were chess players and actors😂
History student here focusing on Chinese/East Asian history...a romance where the love interest is SOMEONE WHO COMMITS FANTASY WORLD UNIT 731 was not on my wild card for 2024, but here we are. I am nauseated. Also, space Romans...? This is what happens when all of literature is "trope"-ified. I am starting to worry that many authors think they can write about history and abide by selling tropes, but that simply doesn't work - these are really serious, still-relevant historical events, one can't simply just apply modern romance tropes over the story. I had similar problems with Song like Silver, Flame Like Night; it feels like "discussing important historical/political events" is becoming a trope in and of itself which is...not so great. Romance ropes and historical discourse do NOT work together. Anyways, great review! Thank you for addressing the nuances of depiction vs endorsement; this book may not have been intended to endorese, still was completely tactless in execution.
it's so bizarre how many 'enemies to lovers' books recently are depicting genocide/eugenics without ever actually engaging with it. This is exactly how I felt about Powerless when I read it. Unfortunately, the author is local to my area and I work at a local bookstore so I really wanted to like it! But the love interest being actively involved in a genocide against the main character was just sickening. And so few reviews were pointing it out. I love all the points you make here. It's refreshing to hear.
That book is languishing on my Kindle. I came across it while looking at 2023 debut works because it had SUCH a high rating. I had no idea it was at all about these topics.
@@mynameismarines I would love to hear what your thought are if and when you get around to it! It was so disappointingly unoriginal and misogynistic even without the love interest being the right hand of the oppressive state. I read the whole thing and wrote a review because I do think that these conversations are important, but it was not an enjoyable read.
That's a bit how I felt about An Ember in the Ashes. 😬 It was my first attempt at reading contemporary YA back in the day and made me too scared to touch the genre since (except for six of crows, which was pretty good)
Basically this is Blood Trials and Blood Gift. Seems like the publishers told her to write like this. The black girl is fighting for a nation that hates her and she loves a mixed guy who dogs her out. It's trauma corn.
@@emmadasilva1794oh you can read the white book but let some Chinese author talk about a common political position women were put in and you drawn the line. Probably same thing with Ember of Ashes. People not understanding much history and applying their own understanding to subjects beyond them but can they read a heist crow novel with less important topics by white people? All dang day 😮
I have a pet theory about why the culture around feedback and reviewer spaces is getting muddled. See, in fanfiction spaces it is seen as rude to leave ratings or unasked for criticism, even if it is constructive, on a fanfic. Yes, even if it is on a bookmark or a reccomendation list meant for other fanfiction readers. Now, I actually agree with this: fanfiction authors do not make any money from sharing their stories, the only thing keeping them going is the positive feedback they get from the community. If they got too discouraged they would stop sharing and the community could do nothing to bring them back. If the writers want to improve, they can ask for constructive criticism in the notes, but many just share their little stories for fun, and have no ambition to venture outside of fanfic. And that is 100% fine. It's a hobby like any other. My theory is that, as fanfiction communities are bleeding into the mainstream, they are dragging some of that culture with them and author that may have experienced fanfic spaces are maybe not used to the harsher reception. But the relationship between published authors and readers buying their books and fanfiction writers and fanfiction readers are very very different. I 100% agree that published authors should not mix themselves into reviewing spaces since the reviews are not for them, but for other readers deciding whether they want to buy the product they are selling. It is nothing like the community vibes within (healthy) fanfiction spaces where everyone's creativity is just for fun and is only feeding upon the positive hype within it. [Full disclosure: im a ff writer who loves concrit and has ambitions to maybe publish something original one day]
I’ve had conversations about this too and honestly in a lot of ways I blame agents and the people who are acquiring these works from fanfiction authors and simply not preparing them for the difference in a publishing career. I mean, to be far, you are just as likely to see a statement from these authors say “my agents said not to say this…” but I do think there is something to what your idea. It’s a different interaction when you are a fan fiction writer to when you are a published author and people make the transition and keep treating it all the same!
yeah, it definitely existed before - I'm thinking Anne Rice, Laurel K Hamilton - but I don't know if there just wasn't the freedom to rally silencing mobs before or if it's various elements of industry indifference putting authors in the content grist mill with little prep, or a mix.
I was so busy still processing this was an alternate universe where the ancient roman empire never ended, apparently colonized the whole world, and then went on to colonize other universes, that the "secret lab of human experiments" just hit me like a truck.
Nothereforit174 has to be Molly’s sock puppet, ‘cause no way someone would be dedicated enough to drop 19+ comment, which are several paragraphs long, just 'cause they like the author 😂 somebody come get them 💀
The only thing I could think of is that if I wanna give the upmost benefit of the doubt is that it's a friend/supporter of Molly; however, that would be really bad because that's literally how Molly got into drama in the first freaking place so even in my most benefit of the doubt "excuse" I could give, even so it's like, have you learned nothing????🤦🏽♀️
I don’t like to make assumptions like this but it has to be Molly or maybe someone in her camp like a friend. There’s no way anyone would be defending a book that wasn’t released and allegedly haven’t read this hard
HIGH KEY. She just is like, "Free, my friend, okay?" and Prince Colonizer is like, "Sure!" and that's pretty much that until SHOCK, we find out Prince Colonizer was lying. Whomst could have foreseen.
Just to counter any "why are you such a hater" vibes for one star reviews a tiny bit, I actually found your account because I could not stand a very popular booktok book and was feeling like I was missing something, and then one of your videos ripped it apart point by point and added several things I hadn't considered! It was so appreciated after feeling like I was the crazy one. Thanks for your reviews, they are appreciated! It definitely makes me trust your recs more too, knowing we dislike the same things. :)
I studied this topic in university and I can't believe someone with family experience would give this issue this kind of treatment. I was so excited to read this book before I started seeing all the reviews about how these issues interacted with the romance plot. If I were the author, I would be mortified if my family read or interacted with this book in any way. I feel like this should've been a writing experiment/exercise that never saw the light of day.
If the author themself compared the relationship to “zutara on steroids”, I don’t understand why they would be confused by backlash. Zutara gets backlash to this day and it’s not even a canon relationship. I say this as someone who liked zutara as a kid and still has a soft spot for it now. Anyone who likes zutara is well aware of the backlash. I don’t know why she thought there would be no backlash.
I have so many examples of the author talking about this book as, essentially, a colonizer romance. I really hated the part where the defense of this work became a backtracking on that. Like, the tweets are still up! The screenshots exist! We can see it!!
@@dania7989 Right. Comp titles are YA, a lot of the blurbs were from YA authors, and it's published as YA outside of the US, and yet everyone was like, "How dare you assume this was YA." WHAT.
Also the lady literally said on social media multiple times it was inspired by unit 731 and other Chinese people are saying she’s making little sense by calling herself “Manchu” which apparently isn’t a thing.
@@ladygrey4113 Manchu is a recognized minority in China. The contention is that Mainland Chinese people do not use the term Manchuria to refer to that region anymore. That region is now just known as the Northeast. The term Manchuria is closely associated to Manchukuo which was a Japanese imperial puppet state during their invasion and colonization. That alone isn’t the reason though, Manchu people are not the only minorities in that region so it isn’t an accurate or inclusive term for that area. However, the English language still uses Manchuria/Manchurian regularly.
Yes! If they do not want to read negative reviews, they can actively avoid reading reviews in general. But they must be aware that readers have the right to dislike and explain why they dislike a book! Any artist putting their art out in the world may face critique, such a basic thing
She’s receiving death and rape threats and was review bombed I believe so...kind of a lot to “critique” a young woman this way but also I don’t Fckin care what white people think of a Manchurian writing about their own oppression. They are the last ones who get to determine correct way to handle anything
Excellent review, and nuanced! One thing I don’t see enough is that Japan’s crime in 731 have been attributed to Rome. I agree that Ancient Rome did its fair share of problematic things but you can’t pin Japanese crimes on them. These are real countries with real histories so either make a fully fictional world or keep it Japan instead of Rome.
@lovelove-cs7zh i know that one. I'm Filipino and the big bookstore chain here in the PH promotes it a lot. I am not into Reylo either, so it's a no for me. Gorgeous covers though.
@lovelove-cs7zhI DNFd this one halfway. If you want an Asian YA fantasy with colonizer themes done well, The Last Bloodcarver is stunningly excellent. And from your photo if you like Naruto I suggest another Asian YA Fantasy called Spin of Fate. Both are 2024 debuts and far better than this book.
This is my first comment, but as someone who would like to be a published author one day, I love your videos so much, they make things clearer for me, even as a black female writer. Thank you so much!
It definitely doesn't negate criticism, but it's very good to keep that context in mind WHILE giving critique on a book. 'Dark romance' recognises that the contents are not aspirational; it provides the fantasy of that questinable romance anyway, on purpose. Questioning the whole validity of 'negative' or 'humiliating' romantic fantasies is another conversation entirely, but one that we always brush against if we actually want to discuss these things based on some deeper review and not just 'bad things are bad'.
Oh Jesus Christ thank you for the review and thank you for such a transparent and honest reading of the book. As a Chinese person myself, me and other CN ppl in Twitter were constantly being shut down when the discourse was going on and being told by white people that we didn’t read the book or that it was a “dark romance” that has nothing to do with Japanese war crimes or their colonial history when the author VERY EXPLICITLY SAID that it was based off of unit 731 and that it was a romance. It was so fucking frustrating to watch people run circles to defend it on the basis that people who criticised it fairly were “puritans” or “antis” 🫠🫠
I'm also Chinese and I definitely saw what you are describing too. Love being put under the bus just so the Western audience can get their E2L or Reylo fix /sarcasm. There isn't anything wrong with liking E2L or Reylo or whatever, but I think those folks, many of whom are white and never read the book, are taking it too far all for the sake of defending the sanctity of their fandom enjoyment at the expense of Chinese people who have genuine issues with how Molly has handled certain topics in her book. Honestly Anti/proshipping has nothing to do with the original issues people brought up, especially concerning Antony's fictional Unit 731. It shouldn't suck up all the air in the room because uninformed people think that "uwu CN people are trying to take away our dark romance!!"
I find it wild that (as much as I understand it from Reddit) the "friend" that ppl say is most likely Xiran orchestrated this whole drama by being overcautious and misrepresenting things heard in private and yet no one is really talking about it.
I saw those text messages, and that part 100% stood out to me. I didn’t want to deep dive into alla that here because truly this is all interpersonal he said she said that leaked. But when I saw what was basically oops I must’ve misrepresented how much and how badly we talked about you!!!! I about lost it…
@@mynameismarinesI don't have any ill feelings towards them and I understand that it was from the heat of the Cait situation that they were key player in but with the amount of vicious HATE Molly has gotten I think it's just fair to publicly take responsibility for the misunderstanding that started it all. Bc when it was time to take credit for uncovering the review bombing they were everywhere but now... silence. I was so disappointed.
it was so sick it was marketed at enemies to lovers romance and she basically proved she did do what she did do bc she posted her critics mixed w rabid responses to make it seem like all the criticism were coming out of no where
As someone who reads a lot of manwha and manga in the fantasy romance genre, I am really concerned with how many stories thay depict a woman being forced in a romantic relationship with their abuser or person who legitimately cause their demise, and it always gives me such an ick that women getting abused and hurt by men, but suddenly go back to them even all the pain they have caused is so popular. People would often give an exuse of "it is just a story, so let people read what they want to read." I know it is fiction. I am not forcing you to stop reading them, as long as you don't relate it to your real life. But that also won't stop me from calling out on how toxic and abusive romance is being romanticized these days, and that we should really stop romanticizing women getting hurt by their abusers in stories.
(A quick heads up, Molly’s surname rhymes with ‘lung’ the ‘aye’ sound doesn’t exist within Mandarin) I was an early ARC reviewer for this book who rated it 2 stars, and does think it’s a colonizer romance, but I didn’t really think it endorsed colonialism. Just that it didn’t handle the conversation about colonialism well. The most annoying part of this was all the people who hadn’t read the book from both sides then misconstruing what I had said. Like I could tell who’d seen my review and then just… missed the point.
Thank you for the correction! I'll be sure to say it correctly next time. I feel like one of the things that I forgot to talk about where the weird things that inadvertently confirmed colonialist sentiments, like the fact that Rome had SCIENCE and Er-Lang had MAGIC. And apparently, Er-Lang was so science-less that she was like, "We don't even have medicine or surgery!!!" which is just the kind of thinking that colonialists use as excuses. Same goes with Prince Colonizer talking about how Er-Lang needs to progress and let their magic users evolve and the fact that the didn't let Rome conquer them because might equals right. And while you could argue that the work doesn't confirm that, the fact that Ruying will have to use and evolve and use her magic to defeat Rome. I hope you didn't get too much backlash on your review!
Well maybe you should’ve waited until it came out because it pisses some of us off when you discourage marginalized women from being read and use sentiments only you can understand as criticism. You created your own problem. And I don’t think you get to determine that. Chinese people have said it handled it well so maybe some people need to ask if they’re relevant to this because colonization isn’t universal in how it happens nor is literary approach and style. So maybe you’re looking for a western story and western approach to colonization
@@Nothereforit174 What do you think ARC copies are for? Review. And I’ve seen Chinese readers say that it was handled poorly. There is no objective truth here and you getting pissed off at people because you don’t know how to handle differing opinions is not actually convincing anyone that this book is worth a try. Perhaps use your time writing up your own review of how this handle anti-colonialist message so well you’ve dedicated all this time in my comments.
@@mynameismarinesI managed to escape the worst of it thank god. But that was genuinely something that annoyed me, because it felt like a lazy reiteration of the “mr magoo” or “noble savage” stereotypes where we have some mystical knowledge that allowed us to go on that long. When in reality like… China invented guns? And gunpowder? And rockets? Like i get that it’s not earth, but it’s wild to be trying to tell a story abt decolonization and then take your fantasy chinese ppl and go ‘no, but they’re mystical and have ZERO TECHNOLOGY.’ Like no, China had technology, and it wasn’t even a thing of differing priorities in technology, where like a lot of Indigenous technologies just weren’t focused on warfare. China had warfare technology, and liked to use it, and for the book to just… skip over that felt really gross. Also like… up until the 20th century most of china didn’t use western medicine bc it was more likely to get you killed than chinese medicine which is a whole other discussion.
Prince Colonizer is literally taking me out 😭😭😭 Also feel free to tag me in any comment thread that is giving you trouble about your review. I could never be a booktuber because I feel yall are too nice to other reviewers and authors who come to harass you. I would be dragging people left and right. Negative reviews are necessary and crucial to critical discourse. How can we develop media literacy without critical reviews?!? Help me understand pls The art is already out and published. Authors can’t take it back so they might as well focus on the next project and move on. You can’t unring a bell so everyone should just engage respectfully and then move on to the next work.
We get it. You have an attitude, it’s not wrong to question a reviewer. The work isn’t published and using a popular platform to paint a very negative idea during the most crucial period(pre order tells the publisher if readers want more from a writer so imagine if it’s as good as some Chinese people have said and handles decolonization well from their perspective, but it got tanked and then no more Manchurian fantasy sci fi which is already...non existent). I will always question the need to be overzealous about criticism of women from marginalized backgrounds, especially in this case because Marines is not Manchurian. I don’t like it when anyone isn’t from a group nor a country but tells the people how they must handle their story. Even the way the Chinese wrote literature is different and Marines isn’t even Chinese. The author is. It’s her peoples story she is basing this off of. I want to see more people who relate get their hands on the book before the narrative becomes it’s a bad colonizer romance(which we could get in Chinese history and why that’s not necessarily bad but honest about tough choices women were often forced to make to protect their clans when China was split into kingdoms). It’s one thing to Pan a book by a privileged person early because it’s spreading hate or something. But when it’s other marginalized people and we don’t know enough about their situation to be their jury, then we can let them have some benefit of the doubt until more people buy so that we don’t become the reason there’s less of POC overall being published. Asian hate is still a problem, I’m not gonna pretend it’s not imperative to be responsible about how we handle each other’s futures and get into more informed conversation beyond ourselves. Chang is experiencing high rates of sinophobia, including death and rape threats right now for even writing this book or standing up for herself. I’m not gonna say “don’t support her everyone” before we read it because I already saw a bunch of easily influenced people say they wouldn’t buy it based off this review or seeing in on romantasy list(she doesn’t pick those and that’s not the primary marketing, it’s not listed at all on Penguin as romance, just she mentions it now but it doesn’t even meet the genre rules so...but that’s another topic) point is people are easily influenced so there’s no reason even criticism can’t be challenged so that people are thoughtful is all. And personally as an artist...I don’t really care if a bell is rung. plus writers market before during and after release for a period so they literally can’t just move on. Readers don’t understand how involved they have to be to sustain a career
@@Nothereforit174 genre Romance is not the only type of book that can contain romance or romantic elements. Plenty of books have romantic elements but don't fit the genre definition of Romance. The more I see fans of a book aggressively going after reviewers who are posting their honest opinion after reading the book the less I want to pick that book up. Please consider channeling your love for this book into a review of your own instead of continuing to go after other reviews. And hey, according to Publisher's Weekly Molly sold this book in a three-book major deal so Del Rey is probably throwing significant money and resources into marketing which is something that moves the needle on pre-orders more than a couple influencer reviews.
I haven’t been watching Booktube in so long and don’t have TikTok so I’m out of the loop when it comes to what’s going on out in the world. I really enjoy your insight on these things.
I meant to watch this earlier and didn't get around to it until now. I was also someone who had followed and wanted to support TGUWG and Molly after the Cait Corrain incident, but the critical reviews (the actual critical reviews) had put me off, especially when I kept hearing mention of Unit 731. So I looked it up, because I had never heard about this before, and I was left nauseated at what I had read. I couldn't imagine using this as the backdrop for a romance, let alone this particular tragedy that affected her own family and people. Getting to the last part in your review really cemented that disgust for me. And this is SO common in media - where the main character feeling betrayed stems from them being lied to and deceived and not anything of the other issues that come from that betrayal. If the character was supposed to be written as selfish, if that was a trait they had, then that's one thing. But these protagonists never are. They're supposed to be seen as pinnacles of selflessness, the good-est of the good, yet they consistently act out in these selfish ways, they'll take moments like this and make it about them, and I genuinely do not think this MC would care if it hadn't been her best friend and she hadn't been so directly lied to. Anyway, immediate follow from me. You explained all of this so well and you seem like a very eloquent, thoughtful, and respectful person.
molly x chang was caught tracking down the social handles of critical reviewers, screenshotting reviews, and asking "this you?" and then turning that whole debacle into an "i'm getting harassed on twitter" and absolve herself of answering to reviewers who'd never been in drama before her who tried reasoning with her privately. sure it's wrong what happened on twitter, but she needs to apologize for invading reader spaces like it's not hard. it's upsetting she didn't learn anything from cait corrain sabotaging her own debut. take care of yourself and thank you for an in depth review.
That's not even what happened tho? Someone sent Molly a review, she complained to a friend in private, and it got back to the reviewer (whose sister also happens to be a debut). The reviewer kept claiming they were "doxxed" when literally their review link led back to their GR private profile.
So many of these "enemies to lovers" romances get comped to the Zutara pairing, and I've been thinking about it a lot as I rewatch AtLA. The reason Zuko is such a compelling character (and therefore a compelling love interest) is that he has a messy but very earned redemption arc. Like.... he spends the vast majority of the series figuring out how to reconcile his upbringing with his lived experience, and then even when he figures out what kind of person he wants to be, other characters do not automatically forgive and trust him! He has to work hard to earn it! But when it comes to all these books that are using Zutara as a comp, I don't know that I've ever read one that puts the same amount of care into a redemption arc. Too many of these "enemies to lovers" books just boil down to, "Well isn't forbidden love kind of hot?" Part of me thinks this is the endgame of trope-specific publishing, but it's so disappointing.
It's also important to note that Zuko's redemption arc doesn't stem from him falling in love with Katara or any other person that Fire Nation colonized.This internal change is completely separate from his love life. He sees that his country was wrong, so he changes on the inside and than becomes the Firelord and changes his country. And that's why most colonizer romances don't work, in my opinion. In most cases the colonizer changes because he falls in love with the victim of colonization. Also marketing colonizer romance as enemies-to-lovers is a bit icky, in my opinion. When your characters are enemies, it sort of implies that they are equals. The oppressor and the oppressed can not be equals by default.
It boils down to fandoms taking guys and infantilizing them to be “cute angry bois.” Zuko especially is faced with learning how the fire nation has hurt other people and it shakes him to his core. I think one of the most powerful things in the show is when he’s trying to fire bend and he realizes he can’t because he’s not as angry anymore so he has to learn a new method. He had to unlearn everything and relearn it. But that’s the problem fandoms don’t care about that, they want cute boys. It’s a shame because we’re expected as readers to excuse horrible things a MALE (bc they’re always men) LI’s crimes because they’re hot. I’m just not interested in that.
Zuko is kind of coddled for most of the series and only really makes one serious mistake at the end of book 2 I honestly find his redemption arc the most over-rated one in fiction. I mean its ok but I'm just sick of it being brought up as perfect when he's barely a villain more of a rival. Zuko doesn't work hard to be trusted Aang just gets forced to put up with him because he needs a Firebending teacher for plot reasons. Zuko isn't a love interest for Katara at all so he's not compelling as one. Shipping isn't the show there's no love triangles even in it. If making an untended pairing canon is all you want from a romance arc then of course the romance writing is going to be garbage.
despite Zuko’s good character arc, Zutara is still a colonizer x colonized ship :p i think the only thing preventing this from being undeniable is that zutara isn’t canon. but if it WAS canon, you can bet that his redemption absolutely would’ve been intertwined with a love for Katara. it always plays out that way. and even if it didn’t, it wouldn’t really make a difference. if the romance comes after redemption instead of during, it just means Katara becomes the reward for redemption instead of the vehicle for it.
@@cuddlewuffleI agree with this and also it’s non canon. Canonically she ends up with Aang who is not a colonizer. I’m not sure why zutaras fight so hard for a ship that doesn’t exist. I think in the show Katara and Zuko had like one scene together before he finally joined.
We should talk about how this author is going after and/or sending friends after reviewers who leave low star reveiws. She's doing almost the same thing as Cait Corrain, except she's not hiding it, and people are just brushing it aside. I don't understand.
How do books like this get picked up by an agent, go through rounds of editing, bought by an editor, go through more rounds of editing and still come out poorly edited, nonsensical 1 star reads? 🤨
I'm becoming very confident they just aren't willing to pay editors anymore and they are just running manuscripts through an algorithm to see if they have the "right" buzzy elements to fit what the algorithm thinks is successful. They then just put enough marketing and special editions into the book to ensure it will be. Haven't read this book yet but I'm getting that vibe from quite a few "bestsellers" these days
Have you read it? Because this review thinks it’s odd that it’s set up like a Chinese fantasy drama but that’s normal for Chinese YA writers. Molly is a Chinese immigrant. Antony is an obvious reference to cleopatra and Antony, she doesn’t just love her colonizer, no she’s terrified but using her skills to see if she can hopefully bring about peace during an inevitable course. It’s a political decision many women were forced to make throughout history, just not as assassins obviously(that we know of, someone poisoned some folks here and there and everyone had same sex servants) And the book is a set up for more so who knows how it’ll end considering it didn’t end well for cleopatra.
@@Nothereforit174I read it. Ruying falls into his arms willingly just after she kills for him for the first time. She does it for comfort. It's written like she falls for him very nearly instantly. And she falls HARD, she has opportunities to let him be killed! She actively stands in between him and the resistance! It literally takes her seeing Unit 731 warcrimes to FINALLY drop her defenses of him and "realize" he's a colonizer
After just one more crappy romantacy that completely fails at saying something despite all the dark themes, I'm starting to form the conspiracy theory that publishers choose these lower tier manuscripts on purpose because the buzz, hate reading, bashing and discourse is free publicity and easy money in comparinson to something that is actually good that they had to market themselves and will take a while in getting known from mouth to mouth. If they completely destroy the author's chances of an actual career because of the horrible debut, then it's all the same to them, there's always new mediocre manuscripts out there. Corporate greed is everywhere after all -_-
A lot of authors these days are found on AO3 and TikTok. A lot of these guys aren’t good writers but there is a sizable frothing at the mouth audience that’ll inhale this book. And that audience tends to buy books and maybe even multiple copies of it
@@nootnewt9323 tbh some of the stuff I've seen in Ao3 is far superior to many of these new romantacy novels. And that's exactly my point, publishers know they are going to make a quick buck from the rabid audience, but it will not withstand the scrutiny of people outside the juvenile niche, nor will it remain once the trend dies out. Publishers don't care anymore about good stuff that will leave a mark for years to come, they just want something that will sell fast. They don't care about the author either because they threw them out in the world when they were not ready and possibly ruined their reputation having their name already tied to a mediocre product
So is everyone actually Chinese who said this was a takedown of colonization irrelevant because everyone non Chinese didn’t get it....I just want to know when we start telling people who they are and what they’re qualified to speak on and how. Because maybe you all have pretty histories. But I do recall some of us have mixed up ones and maybe she didn’t want to run from that but if you read the very beginning she quite literally call them colonizers and speaks about their destruction. So we’re planning this Chinese immigrants book before it’s out...cool. Not like they would know anything. I mean a stolen indigenous woman had to work for the conquistadors and be his sexual slave. Some call her a traitor. A whole fantasy book about it reimagining her is coming out. I guess that’s gonna be panned too.
@@Nothereforit174I really don’t understand what your comment is getting at. I read the book. I shared my opinion on the book with examples. A book can claim to be about something, and I don’t have to think it was done well. I’m happy for everyone who read this and did think it was done well, but that’s not me, and using my opinion to make assumptions and leaps is kind of wild.
@@miscalotastuff733 not the 'things were better in the good old days' argument. When I mean lately I mean the last two years, not the last 6 decades, and I'm not happy to disparage a modern book written by a WOC by comparing it unfavorably to a book from 1965 written by a white man. 'ooh the classics are just superior' nope. Not doing it.
Hard truth is a lot of agents/publishers are fanfic readers these days. For example: There is a certain agent who seeks out reylos and publishes them. They are not the only one who does this.
I can't really speak about the book since I haven't read, and TBH I don't think I will. I've sort of been put off by what I've heard about it and the author. I follow the private reviewer that was accused of review bombing Molly X Chang's book online, so I was watching the discourse kind of unfolding in real time. I do sympathize with MXC for what they went through with the Cait Corrain situation. Obviously, NONE of the authors who were CC's victims of her racist review bombing deserved that. So I can understand that coming off that situation, MXC's feelings probably on high alert, not knowing which reviews are genuine reviews vs which is another case of review bombing. And I've seen people say that the Private Reviewer who MXC went after should cut MXC some slack for what they went through with CC, but in my opinion, its exactly for that reason why we shouldn't cut MXC slack. I feel that MXC should have known better. To automatically accuse a review you don't like as a review bomb is not the way an author should behave. I mean, the book community has already had this conversation on the subject of author's in reviewer spaces to the point of becoming a broken record. Obvi, we can't stop authors from reading reviews, but the reviewers shouldn't be punished for their interpretation, feelings and opinions on a book simply because the author chose to have their feelings hurt, right? Not to mention, MXC doxxed the private reviewer's goodreads account, which she had deleted once before due previous harassment as well. And then (ALLEGEDLY), to use your publishing influence to go after the sister of the private reviewer who is a fellow POC 2024 Debut as well, even though she had nothing to do with the review, feels like a re-ignition of the previous situation. IDK sorry for the ramble. i'm just typing my feelings.
It feels like this author was too immature a writer to tackle these complex themes. Also to pretend the prince wasn't the love interest makes no sense if she has any type of romance with him regardless of how it ends. I saw that commented all over Twitter and I was confused on why people thought if they don't end up together he's not a love interest. 🙄
This. They've been gaslighting the reviewers by saying they don't understand who the love interest is. The oppressor/colonizer is the love interest for 90% of this book (a book that is on many of the current "most anticipated romantasy releases" lists btw) - why would it matter who she ends up with in the end? How is that relevant to what this book is about? Just incredible the amount of backtracking & gaslighting that has been going on.
@@youisabumyou know she didn’t pick those lists right. She doesn’t call it a romance. And stop thinking complex feelings about someone you’re in forced proximity with must be romantic...this girl has already been harassed for being Manchuria and kept her name on the book because she’s proud of her heritage and her people for surviving genocide. Read the damn book or leave her alone. Stop defining shit by everyone but the person. A lot of misinformed people who think romance is implied in everything where oh idk other Chinese people don’t see it don’t make something a romantasy. I don’t care what white editor is anticipating her romantic blah blah😢unless you’re saying Chinese people are less educated about their own lives. Be my guest
Seems out of line to make the immigrant who grew up being told to hide her name because her people experienced a genocide the immature one when you’re going off information from online and she’s being told to die right now for being Manchurian and Chinese. Its not a romance and editors and her, maybe, would know. But go ahead and tell them not read her book. Don’t support Manchurians and stunt her early on top of the harassment she’s receiving from racists. Also that’s the whole major plot point that’s needed for a romance to count as romance in the modern genre. No happily ever after= not a romance, it’s not debatable. It’s genre rules. Non romance readers or those who haven’t studied it from a critical standpoint will not change that to criticize her work. I hate to sound rude but the comments are increasingly frustrating for a book that isn’t out yet from a marginalized author from the people who experienced the genocide! And stop acting like youth is a barrier to writing like that hasn’t been disproven for centuries, it’s just insulting at this point. And maybe a romance isn’t romance because you found something romantic. There is a difference. If I know people I bet she had conflicting feelings about his personality and that was taken as “romantic”, when really that’s a common thing I deal with myself when I know I love certain people but I have to hold them accountable for something or they have a belief I won’t tolerate because naturally you see more of a person’s “good” side if you’re forced to spend time with them. Or maybe they think her doing an obvious political decision(acting as an assassin for him) to protect her people(women did compromising things in Chinese and global history with and without choice for their people) is romantic because she isn’t spitting at him and getting herself killed. Idk how much here though because I refuse to trash it or praise it before I read it but I do see some themes off the bat that I recognize that were dismissed by people who could’ve used some historical context, a Shakespeare reading, and I do support other marginalized women until they give ME a reason not to. And I don’t mean a booktuber and overzealous white people said a lot of things
@@mynameismarinesSeriously, this is unhinged. The gaslighting has been really ugly but this is just disturbing... Telling ARC readers (many of them POC) that they didn't understand what they read or who the love interest was or what the supposedly nuanced depiction of colonialism & imperialism was actually trying to say is a choice... Like are they going to redo this whole book now?🤦♀️
For me, this (ETA: response to the ARC reviewers) felt like the culminating example of the 'we said it was dark content! if you didn't like it that means you just can't handle it and aren't the target audience!' reductive anti-intellectual dismissal of critique that I've seen trotted out for e.g. dark romance even towards criticisms FROM dark romance readers. (And there are other versions of this excuse for other genres.) It deliberately blurs the lines, removes all complexity to media discussion and tries to create a....not quite Strawman, but a dumbed-down position they can insist the 'opponent' is always taking. And this is the nadir: an author insisting that lengthy and specific criticism is simply bad faith hate-mobbing because it....exists. People are more than allowed to criticize execution and handling of dark concepts. When I write dark fiction, I am well aware that it may see backlash from people simply for whom it crossed a personal line or who weren't expecting/prepared for the content! For some people the execution may not land! If you purposefully write something transgressive, you should be prepared for it to touch nerves and not throw a Gabbie Hanna tantrum over it! Sometimes those criticisms of execution are subjective. Sometimes those criticisms may be clickbait from someone who's not your target audience and is just going to repeat how weirded out they are. Sometimes the criticism may be good but difficult for you to hear, or geared towards a style and direction you're not aiming for. That is how criticism works. That is how reviews work. Reviews are for readers. I have read negative reviews that convinced me I would LIKE the book because I could see where their tastes divulged from mine. That is why as a reader you should mindfully engage with reviews. People who try to not only vilify but outright ignore the idea of critiquing the execution of a dark theme or concept are IMO ineptly - and in bad faith - misusing the valid discussion point that sometimes people do come to a genre they don't like and complain that it is that genre. A reviewer talking in-depth about how they personally feel an author mishandled evoking a real life atrocity is not actually equivalent to complaining a musical has people break into songs or complaining a children's show doesn't go harshly gritty with a discussion of war crimes. Saying 'it's dark romance' is not a coherent response to someone saying 'you handled this with all the nuance and skill of a buffalo trying to re-shelve plates in a china shop with its forehead.'
You are one of the few reviewers that I truly consider when reading and engaging with books and the discourse that surrounds them. Your thoughts continue to make me think about reading differently and help me challenge myself as a reader as well as a writer. I don't always agree with your ratings (haven't read this one yet so no thoughts there), but I always appreciate your thoughtfulness when discussing books. I definitely think that when it came to this book, the marketing was all over the place. The way the tropes were advertised gave it such YA vibes but also the heavy emphasis on Zutara made me think that the prince would be endgame (although the title of her sequel may suggest otherwise idk). So when I started to see conflicting reviews about the content, I felt like the book marketing was a lot of false promises to pull in a bigger audience.
I remember the anonymous reviewer, who has a 2024 debut sister, was being harassed for a review before so she had to delete her goodreads and some of her socials. Its sad if she has to delete again because of this
Me and my husband have a running joke that in American media the whole conflict usually is : BUT YOU LIED TO ME ! (And then it’s instantly resolved ) I find it hilarious when in situations like this is like : can we focus on the important part, please ?
Missed your videos. Am glad you talked about this. The whole 'colonizer romance' aside, the author handled the situation so badly that I wont be reading anything from them anytime soon.
So there’s someone who has incredible accuracy of guessing the Illumicrate monthly books and *POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR SUBSCRIBERS* this book is likely the April book. As someone who really has a distaste for colonizer romance, I decided to skip Aprils box. Soooo thanks for your review!!!
FYI-- Illumicrate also has a discord where they regularly mention these sorts of things. I think they confirmed after Cait Corrain that they already had 4 of the affected authors in their 2024 monthly box line-up. January and April were the first two. And they confirmed this book in particular there. There are also google sheets for both Fairyloot and Illumicrate that are community sourced and I've only seen 100% accuracy from them in the past >2 years that I've been watching.
@@MeMyshelfAndI I honestly didn’t know that there was a discord with this information. Thanks for the confirmation. I decided to skip the month after I found out it was this book because, like I said, colonizer romance is icky and this book honestly sounds really poorly written even outside of that.
@@ninjakat26 I didn't care for the synopsis, but picked up the arc because I was curious about the discourse back at the end of last year. I wanted to DNF after page 2 (I'd already sent my friend 6 annoyed screenshots on discord, lol) and forced myself to finish chapter 1, but I unfortunately hated the writing style so much that I couldn't even engage with it on a story level or continue on. The whole situation is so messy, starting with Cait Corrain and devolving into all the harassment and personal attacks. But solely as a book divorced from all that? It's just not one I can recommend.
28:46 I wish you could see my face. I’m cringing so hard. I also just hate the “Roman empire but it never fell” because people are often too lazy to describe how this happened. And also this makes no sense at all? So it’s basically 2024 with planes and portals in the sky? What happened to editors who actually pushed back on these nonsensical things? Also idk why so many people insist on dark romance being about a man harming a woman. Like why can’t we have a man and a woman who are equally as manipulative and evil. That’s what I want to see in a dark romance.
you are so right about dark romance being too much about a man harming a woman, like I want them to be equals and evil as each other, or at least the woman not being the victim all the time at least!
@@SteamCyberGothPunkI’m more compelled by female characters but it seems like a lot of books have a female protagonist who just exists to tell us how hot and mysterious the male LI is. Give me a morally gray woman, give me an evil woman, give me a manipulator. But I guess a lot of writers just see women as vessels for men to drag around. It’s a shame too.
@@nootnewt9323 Oh god I need more complex female characters in books, give me all sorts, well meaning cringe fails, fucked up evil gals, etc. Pleasseee I'm starving! Like they can have a love interest but I want them to be more bold and in charge and have more going on than what authors give us
@@lovelove-cs7zh oh yeah Ive heard great things about Dungeon Meshi so I'd like to check it out and I'll look in those other books too, thanks for the suggestions!
I agree with your wholeheartedly about the editing - i finished it because i had the arc and honestly once i heard about all the drama i was hoping to love it. But i told myself two things can be true - a human can go through something terrible and have an awesome concept … and not implement it that was a way I loved.
I relate so hard to the beginning of this vid when you talk about trying to bring nuance and a different mindset to hate (or love) trains on the internet. Unfortunately, I think I've just come to the conclusion that no matter how much of an 'ally' people want to believe they are, when they get the serotonin boost from either hating (or enjoying) something, all that allyship becomes performative and they are unwilling to examine the deeper harm their shallow sense of 'justice' is. Some might come around once the heat of the moment dies down, but it's a long, hard road to deconstructing the worldview that makes us feel good and many times, places like Twitter are just completely ineffectual in starting that change.
Characterization shouldn't be done in the author's note. Death of the Author shouldn't just be a critical framework, we need to let books stand on their own. No bullying authors for bad books, no stanning authors and harassing their critics, and authors themselves need to not take reviews personally or assume their good intentions somehow came across telepathically. Obviously we can still criticize and boycott authors who choose to use their wealth and platforms for evil, like JKR with her transphobia and Crichton with his climate denial.
@lovelove-cs7zh I agree, books reflect the biases of their authors and often perpetuate harmful norms. But that's still a discussion that's centered on the text of the book, which can and should be addressed by a critical review of the book. And conversely, authors shouldn't get defensive about people pointing out problematic messages in their work. Take Stephenie Meyer. There are important discussions that we can have about how Twilight romanticizes relationships with power imbalances, reduces women to nurturing/supportive roles, and endorses purity culture. But that whole discussion can center on the books, not Meyer as a person. And maybe it's not 100% death of the author, because you can see Mormon themes throughout Meyer's work, and that's also a good discussion. But we don't know Meyer as a person because she is thankfully private about her views (jkr could take note), and so the focus is on the words on the page. And for her part, Stephenie Meyer doesn't call critical reviews "bullying," and she doesn't send her fans into the comments and DMs of reviewers. She doesn't go on Twitter getting mad at the woke mob or write blog posts calling trans men mentally ill. And likewise, no one should be harassing Meyer, even if she did write a romance about a war criminal falling for a man she tortured. We can and should give that book 1 star and thoroughly rip it to shreds in our critiques. And I, for one, will not buying any more of her books because I don't want to financially support that worldview. But no one should be accusing Meyer herself of being a war criminal, and no one should be calling Twilight fans evil for liking a problematic series.
It's a very alarming trend that any sort of critical review is seen as attacking an author (cf. that thing going around where anything less than a 4 star rating is being mean or something like that). Reviews on blogs, YT, Goodreads, Storygraph, etc. are not for authors. Even reviews in trade publications for libraries and the industry are not "for" authors. Once that book is out in the world in any way it no longer belongs to the author and readers are going to read and interpret as they wish. This is an excellent review, Marines, and a review that engages honestly with the work. (I did enjoy that you got more and more animated the more and more unhinged the plot started to sound LOL) I wonder if this book is also a result of so many publishing houses losing experienced and qualified acquisitions and development editors through being siphoned up by conglomerates or hedge funds or whatever to where either it doesn't exist or is being run through freelancers - I can see a kernel of something in this plot, that really could have developed into something interesting and really worth engaging with had it gone through some really tough edits.
Sort of makes me think about the development of even tradpub houses requiring more social media marketability from their authors. Writers have become a product or a part of the product in themselves, and that might hit some debut people pretty hard.
@@mynameismarinesthat sounds like references to Chinese lure if you’ve ever watched Chinese fantasy dramas. I think you may have missing some needed context here because this was intentionally written as a takedown of colonization and it has had at least one major Chinese author who is serious about the subject applaud how she handled the topic. And it is true that many women throughout history had to sacrifice to work for colonizing men for political purposes or force...cleopatra(she named the character Antony, it feels like a reference but also famous indigenous women had to do the same for the English and conquistadors). Why can’t she reference that in her story?
@@Nothereforit174Science fantasy is an established sub-genre but if you listened to the review I actually gave, you would’ve heard me mentioned that the way the elements of the story were fed to us caused confusion. I’d also add that the marketing did the book no favors. I also talked about the gaps in worldbuilding to help the reader understand the scope of the world. I’m very confused what you think you are achieving with these comments. If there is another reviewer who applauded this book, go listen to them. This reviewer thinks this was a bad book that was ineffective at what it attempted to do.
I haven't got anything new to add that hasn't been said already in the video and the comments but I really appreciate this video as someone who had this on their to read list. There were so many things you described that happened in this book made me furious and extremely baffled, so thanks a million for reading it and putting together this eloquent review (and consider me a new subscriber!)
No the moment you write about any possible context related to actual WW2 war crimes and the colonizers aren’t the “clear villains” you've crossed the line. If you’re writing from an entitlement to the story and history in the context of American identity politics rather than out of a genuine desire to engage with and explore the history of the people (whether you belong to the group or not) who the event that is alluded to “happened to”, you are writing for the oppressor and not for the oppressed.
The drugs thing is an actual event that British colonizers did to China- I can’t believe I have to say this but the atrocities suffered by your people isn’t a convenient background for your hot dark fantasy romance
Its crazy how the opium introduction was a real thing, multiple authors have done at least something constructive or tasteful with it, and yet its a backdrop for a enemies to lovers fanfic Its not even an event alluding to it, no, its beat for beat the same thing but they changed Opium by a single letter
Gods bless you, Marines, for attempting to get your way through this confusing disaster of a mess. Thank you so so much for this review, the conversation - the WHOLE conversation - is necessary.
I took this off my TBR after seeing ReadswithRachel say it was disappointing so I really appreciated this deep dive. You always make really interesting points
Thank you so much for the thorough review of this book! I appreciate the thoughtful handling of topics such as colonization and war crimes, as these traumatic events still weigh heavy on the minds of many Chinese people, hence the unfortunate heavy backlash received by the author from Chinese users. I see a tendency to reduce these historical inspirations to be part of fiction or outright deny the historical connections, and as a Chinese person it pains me to see many people don’t understand the Chinese attitude towards Japanese invasion. You have my gratitude for taking the time to read through this book and being critical of its portrayal of the subject matter. I am so glad you mentioned the way the author portrayed the book on social media as it is a large part of my concern as well. Besides the romance being marketed as “enemies to lovers” and “Zutara on steroids”, the prince oppressor (having literally done Unit 731) is labeled as morally gray which is strange to me. Nothing should be gray about that! The author’s backtracking on the identity of the book’s colonizers on Twitter was also disappointing; she had clearly stated the story was inspired by the colonization of the Northeast and stories of Unit 731 but later said her story was completely fictional and the colonizers were white, when the only notable colonizer of Northeast China was Imperial Japan. For a book that was marketed as anti-colonial it should not be so ahistorical and backtrack on its inspirations, especially if it is marketed towards an audience that doesn’t have background knowledge on the Japanese invasion of China. The author’s research on the colonization of Northeast China came off as really substandard. It seemed to me this book leaned in too far on trope marketing and the author just did not have the skill or knowledge to handle this type of story yet. BTW, I responded to her with these concerns on Twitter and had my comments hidden and my account blocked. Authors don’t have to look at negative reviews of course, but I had Chinese friends who were interested in the book and these questions about the content went unanswered. There is a lot of talk on social media about how the attacks on the book were either from sensitive white people or Chinese nationalists/chauvinists, and as someone who has been following Chinese social media this is not true as far as I can see. To clarify, I don’t know if the author’s claims of the link being posted on nationalist forums is true (I did not find any of these forums or screenshots of the post), but I would give her the benefit of the doubt. However, it’s easy to dismiss Chinese opinions as simply outraged nationalists due to rampant sinophobia, and people tend to not read the actual content of Chinese comments. It’s sad that people are saying most Chinese people like Molly’s book and those who don’t are nationalists, because you can tell they only care about Chinese opinions when it aligns with theirs. But I digress. I have only seen two posts about Molly on Chinese social media, one on Xiaohongshu with 10k likes that was later deleted within the same day, and one on Weibo that garnered around 1500 likes at time of writing, posted after Molly’s thread about being attacked by nationalists. Neither of these are nationalist forums, and are probably as mainstream Chinese social media can get. Most of the responses were just criticism regarding the usage of Unit 731 and Japanese war crimes as a plot device (as I mentioned, Chinese people take this much more seriously), and there was even some banter about how Harbin doesn’t claim her. The comments referencing her ethnicity (even made by Manchus themselves) were reframed to be attacks on her Manchu identity. I don’t deny that there are discriminatory comments, but they were so scarce and are not representative of the reason for Chinese criticism. It is so sad to see the author leverage sinophobia against criticism. That’s just some thoughts I had after following the development of the debacle. Again, thank you Mari so much for your time and sensitivity. Hope the nothereforit commenter doesn’t pick a huge fight with me haha, but I’d be happy to answer any questions!
@lovelove-cs7zh You see, the use of buzzwords like “nationalist” and “incels” create this whole world of negating what others reasonably and critically think making the opinions of others seem like a bad critique thus making people sympathize even more with the victim. Not saying those type of people exist though. All of this dilemma and “witch hunt” partially turned in favor for the author by using buzzwords like those and sell or have more pre-orders for such book. Now I wonder if people will have more consciousness when they read her book 😂.
yeah, i scarcely saw any comments that were ethnonationalist or incel-like. i think there was definitely misogyny unfortunately but it wasn't representative. A lot of sinophobia has political origins so accusing critics of being Chinese far-right is an easy way to discredit them, and the author's audience would just assume Chinese ethnic dynamics are similar to American racial ones. Instead of just responding to the most pressing questions the author just indiscriminately blocked all Chinese responses to her and denied her book's historical ties (while using the wrong adjective for Manchu). It's sad seeing someone whose book was largely advertised as being anti-colonial and representative of Chinese culture acting like this
It's troubling to me that this is marketed towards a mainly western audience that has nothing to do with the real world atrocities she was "inspired" by. She is inviting a western audience to enjoy this book, which from the marketing, is intended to be enjoyed as an "enemies to lovers romance", while making wild amounts of money from it. And the audience feels extremely entitled to that enjoyment. If this was handled with more care, if this was a serious exploration of its themes and had something to say about colonialism etc, this would be fine-- but instead it seems like the themes of colonialism/war crimes/genocide are mere set dressing or only there to drive the emotion of the story You mention the dichotomy of depiction vs endorsement, but I don't think it goes deep enough. I'm not sure if I can explain this well, but have you heard of stalag novels? It was a short lived genre of erotica that became popular in Israel following the Holocaust. It depicted Nazi women torturing male captives, and would end with the heroes breaking free and taking their revenge. Ostensibly this was certainly not endorsement, but it's not as innocent as mere depiction, no?
I missed the discourse on this entirely, then got it in a book subscription box. Made it through chapter 3 before I gave up because of the writing. Thank you for confirming I'm not missing anything.
Look, I'm not against "I can fix him" romances, even though I deeply DESPISE that line of thinking, even in fiction, but it'd probably help authors if they didn't make said male love interests the actual scum of the earth.
I had 0 plans on ever reading this book (and i still doubt i ever will) but I think youre one of the most throrough and well formulated book reviewers ive seen yet. I liked that you went into detail with stuff like the marketing and how undermining one aspect of the plot (eg. the FMC’s family) ended up putting the colonizer into focus instead, it gives the person watching your videos a very solid understand of the specific narrative issues within the book. Edited to add: if anyone sees this comment, do you have any genuinly good enemies-to-lovers books youd recommend? im not sure ive ever read a proper one (and im not sure its even my thing), but id be interested if well done
Just saw your comment. You might try Hawksong by Amelia Atwater-Rhodes. It's an older book and short but it's about an arranged marriage between two enemy shape-shifting nations. My opinion of it is definitely colored by nostalgia but if the synopsis sounds interesting I'd recommend giving it a try!
enemies-to-lovers is one of those story tropes that are actually good when done really well and executed with justice. Sadly a lot of authors failed to do so. the whole point of enemies-to-lovers is when unlikely characters who are at odds with each other, gets to know each other, self reflects their own personal biases, unlearning their faults, and redeems themselves for their sake, for everybody, for the greater good, and for their love interest. The romance in the trope is supposed to align on the character's development (esp. from the villain's side) to achieve redemption, compensation, and compromise not just for the sake of love but for the sake of the common good; a better ending. if their enemies-to-lovers only focusing on romanticizing problematic and manipulative red flag relationships without meeting any redemption or middle ground, as well as disregarding the dire consequences of their mistakes/crimes/flaws that affects not just the couple but also the people around them, then they truly fail what the trope really is all about. unfortunately a lot of authors seem to fall for the latter quite a lot. add it with their choice of characters to play as the love interest, their stories are definitely bound to be problematic af.
i thought the "colonizer romance" would maybe be a case of people blowing things out of proportion but then i heard unit 731 and my jaw dropped to the floor. like theres no way.
I really appreciate this video because I was interested in her book even before the Cait Corrain stuff. But after that all went down, I especially wanted to preorder it and support her. It didn’t help that the 1st printing copy looking so nice with all the details and there is a lovely art print for preordering. But from what I’ve heard from her Instagram and then here, just sounds like a lot. I don’t think I’m gonna pre order, but I think this is a book currently slated for one of my book subscriptions so I may end up with a copy anyway.
I feel like soooo many authors get the core relationship in an enemies to lovers trope wrong. They want to go as dramatic as possible with the idea of enemies in a weak attempt to expand the conflict in the story, so it can very easily become a "colonizer romance" or at least have the dynamic of oppressor and oppressed, bully and the bullied. In reality, enemies to lovers works best when the characters are PEERS. Think two captains of rival sports teams! Literally why aren't any of them taking notes from Beatrice and Benedict in Much Ado About Nothing, arguably one of the best depictions of enemies to lovers?
I'd say Benedict and Beatrice are rivals and not enemies, but otherwise I agree - the best versions of enemies-to-lovers is when they're on fairly equal ground (especially in their conflicts), like two unstoppable forces put against each other.
This sounds like a clusterf, badly written and explored. I'll say that Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay is a much more nuanced take on this because one of the MCs is a concubine to the conqueror and she knows she won't leave even if given the chance because she loves this man even with all he's done. He is a butcher of her conquered people and she understands this and that he is evil, there's no, "Oh, he's a grey character because _I_ love him." She also knows her brother is in the rebellion and he is working actively against her lover conqueror. And she doesn't tell her lover this either because she loves her brother and wabts him and the rebellion to succeed for all her people. Bleak end but much, much better than this! Thanks for this excellent review Marines!❤
From the summary, it sounds like the childhood friend who was a spy would have made a better main character. You would probably get a truer reaction to what is going on on the ground, especially from the (presumed) perspective of someone without magic. The MC honestly sounds more like a secondary character who is an obstacle for the hero to confront as the story progresses. A former friend turned assassin who is a traitor to their own people who could be redeemed before the close of the story. At least that way the "enemies-to-lovers/colonizer romance" trope would be in the background rather than front and center...
i have been binging all of your content, and i love your honesty and genuine opinions! you’re one of the only booktubers i trust when it comes to book reviews/critiques. so glad you’re back :)
In the author's note, Chang wrote: "In my desperation to cling to my grandparents and home, I stumbled across articles of Unit 731, a place that existed in Harbin during WWII, just twenty minutes from where I grew up. I realized those ghost stories that haunted my childhood were never just stories. They were memories, rooted in reality. They were a piece of history, forgotten by too many. So while To Gaze Upon Wicked Gods is fictional, its inspirations were very much real."
@MJSpice yeah, it definitely seems that way. I think the author wasn't anticipating or prepared for any negative backlash or discussion around her choices so instead of knowing how to defend herself, she argues that it was never based off of what it was so obviously based off of.
I always love your commentary and discussion! Sucks this book turned out to be such a disappointment. I read So Let Them Burn and had a really good time with it though and I hope you do as well! Also, the discourse around reviews has truly gone off the rails in the last couple years. Like it’s truly wild the repercussions people are facing for the grievous crime of reviewing a book.
Thank you! And yes, I had hoped this book would be much, much better. I'm hoping So Let Them Burn is that for me! And I agree. The number of people who were like, "Of course reviewers can review," but then went on to add addendums that equated any sort of criticism to bullying or harassment was too many. TOO MANY.
Anyone who says that you dont love books just isn't paying attention! (P&P? Fairyland?) Thanks for the thoughtful review, always appreciate your insights.
i just randomly rmbrd the drama around this book on twt n decided to look up reviews n these descriptions r killing me 😭😭😭 the way ppl were defending it i assumed it was at least written well or that molly was a master storyteller n thats why ppl didnt mind the colonizer thing
I absolutely love listening to your reviews, even for books that I plan on never touching, and hope you keep making them. You always put so much thought and care into your discussions that it’s easy to see that you go into reading each of these books in good faith. Since I left academia, I don’t get to talk about books with people like I used to, so your videos help fill that space, which I greatly appreciate.
The premise of the story and how she became involved with the Romans (sp?) is not well constructed. It would have been so interesting to see this truly dive into the uncomfortable discussions and exposure of being oppressed and how that affects the MC’s motives. But it feels like the author just wanted a dark/bully romance and didn’t unravel the issues, and just said it’s fine, because love. 😅
Seconding the Traitor Baru Cormorant rec! Another would be A Memory Called Empire and its sequel, A Desolation Called Peace---the romance doesn't really kick off until the colonizer has had to reckon with their prejudices against the oppressed
I've felt like the last year of "book world controversies" has had two main issues, the first being that the situations have a lot of crossover in their areas of concern, and the second that the people reacting to the situations don't feel like dealing with shades of gray and quickly repaint the problem as an absolute. Cait Corrain's situation could have sparked conversation about book marketing, the burden on authors, the platforms we have given unregulated and unreviewed power to. Instead, all of the evil was packed into her name and none of it seemed to spill over to the areas where changes and improvement could have spared us from reliving the same hell down the line. Books like this one, where the failings belong to multiple parts of the process, are repainted as just "colonizer romance book" instead of looking at why one would feel so self-secure in linking something like Unit 731 with a novel that features romance (at any age level). The most concerning thing to me from the reviews and the analyses I've consumed of this book are that this summarizes a trend of borrowing notoriety from world tragedies to seemingly market a book on morbid curiosity, and gain more readers not because of the story's inherent elements, but instead just because this awful thing will eventually come up, you guys, you will be so surprised! Like a clickbait title. I thought the same back with the discussions of T.J. Klune, and think the CoHo thing may be similar: the books end up having the appeal of a true crime podcast where the title is like: Her country people viciously experimented on! You will never believe what she did next. It almost feels like CoHo does not trust that she would still sell if she was honest about the themes of her books, if she pursued to publish the kind of book that can't be given a flowery pastel-tone cover and a tie-in set of nail polish. While this can be a failure on the concept building phase on behalf of the authors, I also wonder if there's any books conceived one way, then forced to market themselves by exaggerating these tropes or themes once publication approaches. Are all interactiona between a hero and a villain now grounds enough to market a book as enemies to lovers, regardless of the outcome? This concerns me greatly too. Love your work as always!
Honestly as soon as I heard this was written by a Reylo my opinion of it plummeted. You've already shown you're willing to excuse a hot male character committing atrocities, so I just assume you're gonna be doing the same with your MMC.
@@jasminv8653no but it’s annoying though 🤷♀️ but I guess your logic is “as long as it’s fiction it’s ok” I’m not someone who cares but people have opinions. Throwing the “it’s just fiction” but then engaging in it means that it means something to you right? So I don’t think the way people resonate with fiction should be just ignored because you don’t like criticism
@@jasminv8653the author herself said that the book was in part inspired by Unit 731, a real life Japanese research unit wherein some of the most horrifying and notorious war crimes by Japan were committed during WW2. 200,000-300,000 people are estimated to have been killed. the majority of these people being Chinese or Russian. men, women, and children (born from the systematic rapes that took place) were heavily experimented on. this experimentation included hypobaric pressure chamber testing, LIVE ORGAN HARVESTING, amputation, weapons testing, disease injections, and more. there was not a single survivor. the same author, inspired by that REAL LIFE atrocity, marketed _this book_ as something that fans of Reylo would enjoy. so, what kind of impression do you think that gives people?
@@cuddlewuffle im not saying this book specifically doesnt suck ass, i just think the arguments should have some basis in reality - like yours do. Just 'excusing male characters for [insert x toxic trait] in fiction' isnt it.
I think in my review of this arc I literally used the phrase "hello, surprise sci-fi! I thought I was getting epic fantasy! My bad!" The marketing made this so much worse.
I just finished this book and my thoughts are that I could see (some of) what Chang was attempting to do and that she isn't a talented enough writer to pull it off. There were a lot of times where I wasn't sure if Ruying was being an unreliable narrator or if the narrative was trying to absolve Antony of his crimes/actions. I feel like as much as oppression is highlighted, it sometimes isn't taken seriously enough, like the /human experimentation/. That in particular felt very glossed over---and like you said sanitized---especially when the author brought attention to unit 731 and how her own family had been personally affected by it. I don't want a long and graphic section dedicated to it, but it really should have been more than a chapter or two long and focused more on actual experimentation. In the end, it came off feeling (to me at the very least) like shock value.
I can’t get over the fact that when it came depicting a fictional version of that unit, the import and weight given to it is….but this person mattered to ME. The only thing I can think is that depicting a grueling large-scale glimpse of what was happening would have made a transition to a scene where his ~conflict is one of the primary focuses very difficult to handle. Don’t get me wrong, I think a horrifying confrontation of the fact that people can be very nice and genuinely care about a select few and turn around and be obscenely vile to masses of others they’ve dehumanized can be impactful. I’m just not sure I can imagine this author pulling it off
This isn't related to this review, but some of your comments about abolition made me think of Lacy M. Johnson's Reckonings. To be fair, I think about Johnson's story a lot when I think about what justice might look like in certain situations.
Johnson was kidnapped and assaulted by an abusive ex who fled to his mother's home in Venezuela after she escaped and alerted authorities. The US does not have an extradition treaty with Venezuela, so Johnson does not have any kind of legal recourse. Johnson writes in the beginning of Reckonings (which has a perfect title btw) that often at speaking events people make comments to her along the lines of how injust her situation is; but she questions what justice would be for her and her ex. Hearing what he did makes it easy to want vengeance, but vengeance does not restore people or make the public safe. It's driven by hate and a fear of identifying with perpetrators, feelings that center the people commenting instead of victims.
It is easy for me to look at Cait Corrain's review-bombing with disdain because I have not done those specific actions. I didn't try to hurt others out of insecurity with no care to whether I was perpetuating marginalization in the process in her specific way. I don't have to deal with myself if I look at Corrain and say, "Yeah, that was abusive." But if I zoomed out and nitpicked all my own habits and behaviors, there's bound to be some unexamined prejudices in there. Corrain is accountable for the things she's done, but the (hopefully) unconscious bias that drove her behavior is probably easier to identify with than most of us who condemn her are comfortable with admitting to ourselves. I'm not claiming to know exactly the most ethical way to discuss Corrain or the authors she targeted, but I do think it's fair to pause and point out that condemning Corrain on its own is not enough for the reading community to engage honestly with the systemic problems in publishing this kerfuffle called attention to. The issue is bigger than her, but making her the problem is a convenient way to distract from the fact that there are many more people in publishing more powerful than Corrain who aren't publicly being held to account for their behavior.
Those conversations aside, I think engaging honestly with the titles Corrain targeted is the kindest thing you can do as a reviewer for those authors and their books. They deserve to have their work taken seriously after Corrain tried to make them the football in the little game she tried to play.
Thank you so much for such a thoughtful comment. It really captured exactly what I was trying to have a discussion about, though probably trying to have it in the heat of everyone's anger at Corrain wasn't the best. It felt like it was easy at that moment to make Corrain the fall guy for lots of larger frustrations with publishing and the kinds of biases that make navigating it even more difficult for authors of color. And it felt like I, as a member of that community, was being asked to say that Corrain had earned it and all of the punishment the community saw fit to dole out afterward. It felt like everyone turned into a cop and, with almost gleeful joy, jumped at the chance to finally catch a bad one.
And thank you for saying that about engaging honestly with these works. The comments are great so far, but should this turn south on me, I'll keep your words in mind that I respect these authors by taking their work seriously. ♥
@@mynameismarines Thank you for your kind reply, marines. I think when situations like reviewbombgate arise, it's sort of like turning on the light to your basement, realizing you have rats, and then putting all your energy into catching only one rat. Like, yes you don't want that rat there, but if you pay attention to only the one, you're still living with the others. But doing it that way avoids the hassle of calling an exterminator and figuring out why the rats got in their in the first place. And if you don't really mind having rats in your basement, you can still feel good about how you really stuck it to the one rat.
I do sympathize with people who might have seen this situation unfold on the sidelines feeling a bit protective of the authors targeted by review bombs because they have always seemed to have the least amount of agency in this situation. They have been subjected to tangible harm AND had to navigate collectively how to respond in a way the minimized the distraction caused by the drama. An unfortunate side effect is that someone who rightfully sympathizes with these specific authors might be quicker to interpret honest criticism as an attack. It's good not to want to see these authors and their debuts be harmed further by the spectacle, but "I didn't like these aspects of the book" is not "Don't read this book." Whatever a person's feelings about Corrain, she clearly wrote those abusive reviews in the hopes other people would form an opinion of these books WITHOUT READING THEM. It's the same reason she gave her own book five stars. But it's not the star rating that communicates to other readers "This book is worth reading and discussing." Reading and discussing the books is what does that.
Truly! I think if I was in the shoes of these debut authors, I'd be kind of thrown off if no one negatively reviewed my book on launch. Every book put to print has lovers and haters, whether those reasons are genuine or not matters little. If I published my debut after being talked about as one of the "authors targeted by Cait Corrain" and all of my reviews were nothing but positive? I'd know it was because of pity, and I'd have to ask "how many of these positive reviews were left out of pity?" An author deserves your honest opinion. Honesty isn't being rude in the reviewing world, and it's a shame that so many people have to fear honestly reviewing books for fear of hurting the author's feelings or upsetting the author or their fanbase. Honest reviews tell other readers, hopeful authors, and publishers, what we like and what we don't.
It is ironic that Cait Corrain is one of the reasons Molly Chang and a lot of the targeted authors will become bestsellers, even if just for a few weeks. Now it’s to be seen which of them can carry on that momentum into lasting and impactful careers. Given this book I don’t think Chang is one of them, but who knows, she may grow with her next series. But it is unfortunate that her book is getting all this attention since it’s so poorly written. A quieter debut experience might have benefited her.
@@ingridfitz5677 I agree, but I think some readers feel protective of the books and authors targeted in reviewbombgate. Intentional or not, Corrain made these titles personal to many people besides the authors themselves. I don't think it hurts to remind readers before beginning a review that the fact that this book has been subjected to a personal attack does not mean any criticism is in bad faith.
Yeah he did war crimes, but Mari… his eyes were green 🥺 like jade 🥺
The gaze of a thousand atrocities to swoon some random protagonist’s heart
Jade is also a special gem in Chinese culture and it’s a fantastical story so I think that was the bigger part there. Not everyone is just idolizing white features or rather what y’all assume are white features(my non white self has green eyes)it’s a genetic mutation so...white people knowing y’all are who y’all are and then trying to ride a high horse in this conversation or similar ones is wild to me lol.
@@Nothereforit174 i am taking asian art and the class is currently discussing ancient china and the amount of jade artifacts that was discussed in that portion is wild.
@Nothereforit174 genuine question: can you explain how the significance of Jade in real life Chinese culture is still an important symbol in this book, when the book is fantasy and the author is using different real world inspirations in ways that are subversive and don't retain their original meaning?
I don't understand how we are meant to assume or understand that Jade is an important element in this book when the book itself never tells us that Jade is important to Ruying's culture.
@@Nothereforit174You are coming into this conversation trying to change the subject to being about 'well jade exists and was considered valuable' instead of the obvious joke about the ancient trend of 'but it's not war crimes when pretty people do it' in fiction. And your effort is TRANSPARENTLY for the purpose of exploiting the idea of racism and its victims to deflect writing criticism.
I get that you got real excited when you saw DeSantis and his ilk continue to use the idea of CSA to attempt to crush social progress and thought 'hey, I can wave the specter of serious issues in the air to get away with crap too!' but do you think people can't observe you in the other reply threads on this video yelling about how actually, authors are justified in harassing reviewers because authors are INCAPABLE of ignoring randoms on the internet and also, some people don't like Colleen Hoover books and that makes you angry. Do you think no one can recognize that your argument has as much ideological or intellectual integrity as millionaire instagram scammers whining that criticizing them is just sexism and is setting back women's rights.
I'm a WWII Historian and my jaw DROPPED when you said it was alluding to Unit 731
based on her grandfathers personal experiences ALLEGEDLY
@@YesHelloHiGoodbye dang now we don’t believe her because she’s an author of Manchurian descent. That’s basically it. You would never tell someone their great grandfather was allegedly a Holocaust victim. People really show their ass-I mean true colors, on booktube. You just told her and her grandfather his life is a lie
I’m ready to read this book. Manchurian authors really need support as a marginalized group from her home country. I’m okay with actually getting my own interpretation and not just leaving her to drown in the rape and death threats she’s getting for even daring to be an author. Kind of disappointed to see a campaign to take her down this early though but I believe in Molly. I think there’s more to this(and it doesn’t even meet the requirements for a romance nor is it officially marketed as one) and I want to see more women of color and youth be uplifted. I’m sad to see us getting shot down before we take off. Even if we call it romantic, his name is Antony, I think it’s a reference to cleopatra‘s political love affairs and also palace dramas. She watches c dramas all the time. She knows concubine history and how they sacrificed to save their clans. Stories can be complex and challenging
@Nothereforit174 except chang is marketing it as romantic explicity. If you go to her TT page you will see "enemies to lovers" & "when he's the enemy prince" & "Zutara on steroids."
I agree that WOC authors should be uplifted! But the very first complex negative reviews of this book were also from WOC who rightfully pointed out that they felt this was handled so so poorly.
She absolutely doesn't deserve threats and harassment. But I couldn't believe she actively put a letter stating the book was inspires by Unit 731 and then still thought readers would sympathize with that kind of love interest. It's too jarring.
@@Nothereforit174 Rape and death threats are disgusting and I don't condone harassment of the author but acting as if the majority of us aren't just giving her book valid criticisms is wid. A campaign to take her down? Most people are just stating how poorly she handled something EXTREMELY traumatic to a large group of people. She also literally called it zutara on steroids so what do you mean not officially marketed as romance? It was called an enemies to romance romantasy. Also btw the majority of her critics are also poc but ok uplift her book at the expense of the rest of us. Hope you enjoy your Unit 731 inspired coloniser romance, I mean that sincerely.
This sounds like a Katniss/Gale/President Snow love triangle
The only thing wrong with this is that I’m MAD I didn’t think of it 😂
Please, in going back through Chang's social media, someone in my discord found a Tweet where Molly said that young Snow (from Ballad) gives big Antony energy. YOU WERE SO RIGHT.
Signs that
- this is going to be an amazing video
- the critiqued media in question will defeat me spiritually
I hope you never let the ignorance of the world let you stop your long form discourse on books. I absolutely love listening to your deep dives and find your discussions so wonderful to listen to.
Same, love the deep dives!!
Same
Ignorance of the world? I would like yte people to stop painting their ignorance and it’s trickle down in the States(and places they’ve interfered via the government) to some people, as world ignorance. It’s very uncomfortable, American centered, and insulting
This comment was literally referring to comments I receive calling me negative. Your response has nothing to do with what they said. Please, find somewhere else to jump to conclusions in order to defend this book.
@@mynameismarines wait, sorry, I think there's a misunderstanding? I'm not defending this book at all. 🤔
"What if the Roman empire never dissolved and advanced into the space age" is a pretty fascinating idea too. Pity.
I had so many questions left about what was happening on Earth. All we learn is that something something pollution. Antony references Romeo and Juliet and quotes Taylor Swift, but we have no other idea of what it means that the Roman empire advanced into the space age. It made everything feel hollow.
@@mynameismarines A Roman guy quoting Taylor Swift could have been such comedic gold though...
@@mynameismarinesyes it would be so interesting to get all the details about this alternate Roman Empire! It’s millennia of alternate history that could be great if it was actually explored.
“why? i don’t know, for romantasy reasons for enemies-to-lovers reasons” FREE US FREE US FROM THESE SHACKLES WHY ARENT WE TELLING GOOD STORIES ANYMORE
Everything is mediocre nowadays. Big budget movies, a lot of traditionally published books, mainstream pop music. It's about making as much profit as possible in as little time as possible and with the least possible amount of effort. This is why pop music all sounds bloodless and Computer-generated these days.
there are still a lot of good stories being published. in all genres.
The fact that the book went viral in China and Korea for the Unit 731 aspect says a lot. Basing a book off of a real life genocide means the topic needs to be handled with care and sensitivity. The Japanese Occupation didn't just happen to the author's family but to the family of others as well
do you know what's the nature of the virality of the book over there? as in what kind of tone did netizens reacted, sorry just curious^^
@@sarahtonin646 Hey there. I can't link to these posts for some reason. But from my observation, they seem to be mostly confused and disgusted? Both Koreans and Chinese were mocking her "American ignorance". There were also quite a few comparisons to the Holocaust from both sides.
EDIT: I just realized how vague my words sounded. I mean to say netizens were comparing the romance to a Holocaust prisoner falling in love with a Nazi officer.
I'm a Chinese diaspora person who has been following the discourse closely before the doxxing allegations began, before Molly got sent death threats. Frankly, I'm not upset about the book as much as I'm upset about Molly backtracking and painting every Chinese person who's critical as mere ethnonationalists and incels. "Fiction is just fiction" people defended Molly on the basis that she's POC, that it's her history to tell but what about those who felt differently about the ARC AND shared that culture or/and history? There were other Asians colonized by Japan opposing the book as well and a good portion of Chinese people mad typically tweet fandom stuff, not even involved in campist politics. I followed this trans guy from China who wrote polite, nuanced replies to her thread denying Unit 731 influences and she hid his comments that made her book look bad and privated straight after. That really soured my opinion of her. How the discourse was framed made us look heartless, a hivemind and simply lack media literacy. It, weirdly enough, felt akin to western perceptions of asian countries.
@@sarahtonin646 A lot of Chinese people disliked the book from what I've read, calling it a "colonizer romance".
I don't condone Cait Corraine's behavior one bit, though I do understand it--which are totally different things.
I saw Molly's original post, BTW, asking if the one star reviews were "review bombing" and I posted they weren't. I spent 3 hours of my time sorting it for her, putting up screenshots to show they were genuinely 1 star reviews from legit people, and one 3 star review from a legit UA-camr.
The verdict was that several of the reviews came from people who were genuinely affected by the experiments through generational trauma and were annoyed at the book. But they didn't like it for legit reasons, though another reviewer (the UA-camr) said maybe the love interest would change and was wrong (the childhood friend). I also mentioned that the reviews were from Chinese people as well--some of them Chinese Americans, not just Chinese. I put up receipts such as the profiles to prove they were there for a long time, that they showed they had read the reviews. She attempted to delete/hide all of my replies to her thread about that, though, to be fair I'd done it in kindness so she would know they were legit reviews and she should not worry about people pouring in with fake accounts.
The kerfuffle, though, came at her expense after that... when someone white decided to label it "Dark Romance" (which isn't what Molly labeled it as) who tried to argue against any Asian women being negatively reviewed. This then led them to try to doxx the Asian reviewers, who then got harassed and Molly didn't try to defend them, which made things worse. Then the Chinese community became raging upset that Molly was willing to let negative reviewers be doxxed and yadda yadda. (Personally, mostly I wanted to keep the record straight).
I'm not about all that drama. I dislike it. But I also dislike lying too. She kept up a post that effectively had them hunt the reviewers down, heard about the doxxing, didn't do anything, and let one of her white fans chase after them instead of saying no, leave my reviewers alone... but also that one white "defender" was freaking weird in a fetishist way and willing to outright lie.
But yeah, the Chinese community is upset at this point about the whole thing. Personally, I'm hands off. Don't doxx people. Wrong. Don't send death threats. Also wrong. But also don't lie about reviewers. Also wrong. And don't keep up a post where you know it's not true where it will allow others to be doxxed. Also wrong. And don't sit back when you know someone is being wrong and asking others to hound down your reviewers, no matter what star rating they give. (But I also understand that asking people to do PR is hard)
BTW, My Korean family was also affected by the Japanese occupation in living memory. My mother's side of the family were forced to use the names from that occupation. Despite that, I think centering Chinese voices is more important and they dislike the contents of the book as they've read it by and large. And also dislike a gentile white person invading their space saying But But Nazi romance gets published. (The person who spoke isn't Jewish).
It did? I never heard of it. Would yoi happen to know what either Chinese or Korean name of this book is? I can't find it just using its English name
I love (ironically ofc) that not only is the love interest, well, a colonizer, he's literally THE colonizer !!! Literally one of the most powerful people that uphold oppression and genocide
And the whole this is that his grandfather and brother and maybe father are WORSE!!! And we are also supposed to see that he was idk raised a colonizer, which is a fine starting point for an ARC but a less fine starting point for a ROMANCE. To me at least…
@@mynameismarines Exactly, I mean, he cannot be THAT bad considering the rest of his family is worse, right........ RIGHT !???!?! /s
And the author calling it Zutara when the entire point of Zuko is that he is the Least Colonizer, he was purposefully isolated from radicalization and demoted to a completely powerless fleet captain, which is why he fell into the cycles of violence and backslid so violently; he was a good kid, but because he was coddled by the propaganda, he couldn't engage with what the very real pain of being taken over by an empire looked like. What kind of reading comprehension you have to have to compare it to an adult man actively participating from one of the greatest positions of power in the empire ???!!
@@necrofish00even if Zuko was the best of them, even then I could not handle the Zutara ship by virtue of the colonizer-colonized dynamic. this book sounds like a nightmare
@@necrofish00even if zuko may be leagues better than the love interest on molly and chang's novel, in the end zuko still participated and contributed to the war in favor of fire nation makes zutara fanfics problematic, mainly because a lot of the zutara writers romanticize the "spiciness" of the problematic tension between zuko and katara while completely leaving out zuko's character development that made him redeemable. They just want zuko to stay as a book 1 jerk in order to maintain that "spiciness" because that is coded as "hot" in their books rather than make zuko progress for the better for the sake of himself, for everyone, and for katara.
And if a lot of zutara writers are like these, then i wouldn't be surprise why molly and chang's novel went down like this considering they hinted zutara as one of their influences.
I firmly believe that having a personal connection (cultural, ethnic, familial, or a combination of these) to a historical atrocity does not automatically entitle someone to write fictional work about that atrocity, especially if they are going to make money off it. They must also do the work to make sure that their depiction respects the experiences of those who lived through it: this means doing a significant amount of historical research, listening to or reading first-hand accounts of survivors, and hiring MULTIPLE sensitivity readers. They must be willing to accept criticism about how they talk about and/or depict that atrocity. It seems clear that Molly Chang did not do such work.
@lovelove-cs7zhand i doubt those white folks dead set on defending TGUWG have even read the book
THIS, 1000%!
I think this also works with writing mental illnesses and physical disabilities.
Just because you experienced it doesn’t mean you're properly equipped to tell a story about it.
I have depression and anxiety, and I quickly realised, while writing a character with the same mental disorders, that I am perpetuating the stigmas and stereotypes of those disorders. I had to pause and just unravel what I had internalised because what I wrote was problematic and definitely not written in a way I wanted.
All I'm saying just because you have these illnesses ect doesn't automatically make you an expert when it comes to writing characters with them.
Sensitivity readers are important and you have to be aware that even with best intentions you could write something offensive without meaning to.
These are just my two cents on this topic.
i also think it has to do with how far removed someone is from the issue itself too. i am in the same spot as Molly- financially comfortable American Chinese with family ties to traumatic Chinese historical events (though mine are related to the cultural revolution). Even though our families and culture are Chinese, we don't personally experience the effects of these events the way our parents, grandparents did. SHE has never personally seen or experienced anything remotely close to what happened to Chinese ppl during imperial Japan. There are only 2 more comfort women still alive from during that time, at the very least having someone related closely to the events + historians + sensitivity readers give feedback would be the minimum.
theres a whole other talk to be had with her privilege as a upper middle-upper class asian american absolutely changes her perspectives compared to families in China who still feel the emotional and financial effects of japanese imperialism.
also she has an American school education, which is certainly different than those in Korea and China in how they approach the analysis of the atrocity. She (and I) have an unconscious american bias towards these events, and a western way of thinking (not inherently a bad thing but given the events are from Asia.. its is definitely different than those growing up/living in Asia)
am i the only one who find it alarming the growing number of authors equating reviewing with harassment. it's embarrassing to be honest.
Incredibly alarming. It's been an ongoing trend, and on top of that, I feel like the Cait Corrain situation emboldened authors to step into review spaces for this kind of "investigation."
And an even larger number of readers equating fiction with reality
For real. Authors really need to stay out of reader's spaces
When authora are now asked to market their own books on tiktok, i think it also has to be the blurring of the lines between authors and readers
@@MJSpiceyou affect their career so no. You don’t get to benefit from their work nor engage with it like they don’t exist once it’s out there. Now if you had a book club in private that’s your business but when you take it online and it can affect them on a large scale, they can’t ignore it. Partially for feedback and because some of you are genuinely silly or bad people and they need to put the breaks on it when someone trashes a book arcs aren’t even out for or starts review bombing because they thought something was bad and it was just personal interpretation. I mean Hoover is a perfect example. Critics regularly applaud how she handles real life situations but a whole campaign exists in reader spaces to stop a woman’s career, as if publishing isn’t already male ran enough, because people think books are supposed to set an example when that was never a thing until randoms online started getting pissy over irrelevant stuff that essentially boiled down to they didn’t read the trigger warning and they didn’t like her writing style so now she’s a bad author to warn everyone away from 🙄and half of them are kids who don’t know much of anything yet(they’re just offended by a comment about big balls and conflated that with violation of a baby because they can’t first understand the baby isn’t real, writers will write detestable characters as a norm(hello Lolita), and that’s it’s not saying do it to have something in a book but also parents can see and I bet they do have silly thoughts changing diapers at 4 am) .That’s the thing people haven’t learned yet. They literally have to market to you lol. You’ll always be in the same spaces. And they’re also readers. They just create too.
when will authors learn that NOT EVERY STORY NEEDS A ROMANCE AT ALL.
When will you learn artists write what they want to read and that’s how it’s supposed to be. It’s not about you
My god, you don’t even know how reviews and being the consumer works.
I say this as an avid romantasy reader, but I prefer no romance over poorly written ones.
@@Nothereforit174just because you want to write it doesn’t mean it’s always the best choice for your story. Like… that’s just the way it is
@@Nothereforit174 Then why would they publish it, if it's just for themselves and what they want to read?
The distinction between depiction and endorsement is SO important. I saw someone on TikTok calling The Green Bone Saga by Fonda Lee and The Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang misogynist. The female characters in these books DO experience misogyny but it’s being depicted, not endorsed as far as I could tell.
Right! I remember reading a Reddit post complaining that Fonda Lee was engaging in some #menwritingwomen because she has the narration neutrally note that a secretary is wearing a translucent top. The intent isn’t titillation or a gratuitous description of every female character’s appearance, it’s a clue that the character we’re here to meet-this woman’s boss-is a creep in a position of power. This isn’t deep symbolism: it’s an example of “show, don’t tell.”
There are some valid criticisms of how Fonda Lee writes her female characters in my opinion.
@@---ul9eq Which characters and why? I read the Green Bone Saga and Untethered Sky and thought the female characters were well written. They experience misogyny but this is depiction rather than endorsement.
Can someone please explain to me why anyone thinks taking REAL LIFE human experimentation, eugenics, genocide, etc and using it as inspiration for enemies to lovers this way is ok??? I think enemies to lover romance in a war setting is ok but why would anyone think this specific variety is romantic or a good idea? How about we just have the love interests be on equal footing like reluctant spies or soldiers from opposing sides and actually treat war with appropriate nuance?
- white and/or imperialist guilt and the apologetics it produces
- the failure to do the work to actually humanize another person who has been historically and/or is still being currently subjugated and dehumanized by the ruling class you are a part of, so fetishization is where the dust settles.
- tendency of creators with dogshit media literacy to think they can write functionally the next Lolita level critique of topic
- I genuinely don’t know either why people who invoke this sort of evil don’t at least try to mitigate it by creating the sorts of complex relationships that still have the burden of that horrific power imbalance but may have been feasibly more real- settlers who have basically no power to alter their empire, settlers who were already waking up to the propaganda of their empires, those born by occupant parents who have no value or use to a fascist empire like the disabled, the queer, the lowest socioeconomic groups, who would actually have a concept of their empire’s evils to connect to an indigenous population over. Even these aren’t great, I don’t enjoy reading fiction about these because I am tired of the sexual and romantic invasions of indigenous people’s lives and bodies by any colonial group being served up as the perfect food for my little white eyes. I don’t have an interest in uncritically consuming the watering down of human atrocities to have my little drenched basement over The Notebook moment.
- it might just be ghoul shit. And I don’t know why that happens to people or why they seem to enjoy an imperial self wank position.
Referencing real life events is not necessarily a complete Taboo, as long as it is done with a lot of care. The Poppy War references many real life events of Japanese Imperialism (if ykyk) and British colonialisation, but I had never seen it been be under same scrutiny as this book since The Poppy War portrays these events as horrific, traumatising and afronts to humanity.
I also feel referencing the king to be similar to Zuko is just disingenious. I don't mind Zutara, but in canon, Zuko's whole redemption arc would be cheapened if it was viewed from a romantic lens. It's much more satisfying to have a character completely deconstruct the long-held beliefs and rebuild their ownself from the ground up based in a fundamental change in their own thinking/morals. Having a change of heart because he was in love with the protag and she inspired the colonising to be exorcised from his body just feels much more cheaper.
Yeah and even atla fumbled its incredibly well handled bag when it made Zuko the next fire lord of a genocidal monarchy that needed to be dissolved instead of continuing to be framed as a system that could work just fine in the right hands; tbh same with the earth kingdom in regards to its bureaucracy and monarchical structures creating a system that was incredibly susceptible to fascist control. We don’t know what the air nomad temple societies needed to revise within their systems of power because they are destroyed before media res. The only society wide change seen is in the southern water tribe’s nation, regarding their stances on gender roles and women’s rights.
For as well as it did truly humanizing Zuko, atla is not perfect and has a lot of colonialist flaws- and it’s often an impossible standard for newer media that attempts to discuss and frame stories within imperial regimes and colonial fascism :(
I woke up from a piece of media that in large part portrayed a mixed relationship between the heir of a monarchic, theocratic, ethnonationalist colonial empire, stating multiple times in its canon that the creator and world itself both believe intimate relationships between the direct oppressor and their immediate victims are “proof” the colonizers’ racism is unreasonable and will fail. And yes, it is cheap and shallow and vile.
The question, “how can you think of your partner as dehumanized when you form romantic and/or sexual relationships with them?!” is literally answered by misogyny in heterosexual relationships. That this creator could understand just fine that a patriarchal man’s desires for romantic, emotional, and sexual intimacy from women he completely dehumanizes is never going to be what stops patriarchal dehumanization but the second she realizes she’s more aligned with the oppressor and attacker than the marginalized and victimized, suddenly her white imperial love MUST be the solution to race relations that were created by her empire alone. Incredible.
I think this book hit the final nail for me. I am so done with enemies to lovers romance, I'm tired.
I don't understand why, 9 times out of 10, it's about pairing an FMC with her abuser or colonizer. And then the way it's all sanitized as "enemies" or "morally gray" makes me just mad.
@@mynameismarines ikr? It's like the erotica trope of the bad boy is infecting everything now and each bad boy must one up the last one in badness.
My favorite enemies to lovers construction is competitors to lovers. It's in Anne of Green gables as an example (although mostly in Anne's head haha)!
This! The current trends are like super unhealthy variations of enemies to lovers and like that is not what I'm here for please.
As someone who adores the trope of enemy to lovers, while only encountering few actually well written books with the trope lol, I 100% agree.
That’s you if you read bad books. Anyway. Concubines were often enemies of their lovers. I guess we have to not reference Chinese history now. It’s too mean and women have never had to do things to protect their their people(or try like cleopatra). Let’s sanitize everything. But seriously nobody made you read abusive literature lol. The last enemies to romance books I saw were chess players and actors😂
History student here focusing on Chinese/East Asian history...a romance where the love interest is SOMEONE WHO COMMITS FANTASY WORLD UNIT 731 was not on my wild card for 2024, but here we are. I am nauseated. Also, space Romans...?
This is what happens when all of literature is "trope"-ified. I am starting to worry that many authors think they can write about history and abide by selling tropes, but that simply doesn't work - these are really serious, still-relevant historical events, one can't simply just apply modern romance tropes over the story. I had similar problems with Song like Silver, Flame Like Night; it feels like "discussing important historical/political events" is becoming a trope in and of itself which is...not so great. Romance ropes and historical discourse do NOT work together.
Anyways, great review! Thank you for addressing the nuances of depiction vs endorsement; this book may not have been intended to endorese, still was completely tactless in execution.
it's so bizarre how many 'enemies to lovers' books recently are depicting genocide/eugenics without ever actually engaging with it. This is exactly how I felt about Powerless when I read it. Unfortunately, the author is local to my area and I work at a local bookstore so I really wanted to like it! But the love interest being actively involved in a genocide against the main character was just sickening. And so few reviews were pointing it out.
I love all the points you make here. It's refreshing to hear.
That book is languishing on my Kindle. I came across it while looking at 2023 debut works because it had SUCH a high rating. I had no idea it was at all about these topics.
@@mynameismarines I would love to hear what your thought are if and when you get around to it! It was so disappointingly unoriginal and misogynistic even without the love interest being the right hand of the oppressive state. I read the whole thing and wrote a review because I do think that these conversations are important, but it was not an enjoyable read.
That's a bit how I felt about An Ember in the Ashes. 😬 It was my first attempt at reading contemporary YA back in the day and made me too scared to touch the genre since (except for six of crows, which was pretty good)
Basically this is Blood Trials and Blood Gift. Seems like the publishers told her to write like this. The black girl is fighting for a nation that hates her and she loves a mixed guy who dogs her out. It's trauma corn.
@@emmadasilva1794oh you can read the white book but let some Chinese author talk about a common political position women were put in and you drawn the line. Probably same thing with Ember of Ashes. People not understanding much history and applying their own understanding to subjects beyond them but can they read a heist crow novel with less important topics by white people? All dang day 😮
I have a pet theory about why the culture around feedback and reviewer spaces is getting muddled.
See, in fanfiction spaces it is seen as rude to leave ratings or unasked for criticism, even if it is constructive, on a fanfic. Yes, even if it is on a bookmark or a reccomendation list meant for other fanfiction readers.
Now, I actually agree with this: fanfiction authors do not make any money from sharing their stories, the only thing keeping them going is the positive feedback they get from the community. If they got too discouraged they would stop sharing and the community could do nothing to bring them back. If the writers want to improve, they can ask for constructive criticism in the notes, but many just share their little stories for fun, and have no ambition to venture outside of fanfic. And that is 100% fine. It's a hobby like any other.
My theory is that, as fanfiction communities are bleeding into the mainstream, they are dragging some of that culture with them and author that may have experienced fanfic spaces are maybe not used to the harsher reception. But the relationship between published authors and readers buying their books and fanfiction writers and fanfiction readers are very very different.
I 100% agree that published authors should not mix themselves into reviewing spaces since the reviews are not for them, but for other readers deciding whether they want to buy the product they are selling. It is nothing like the community vibes within (healthy) fanfiction spaces where everyone's creativity is just for fun and is only feeding upon the positive hype within it.
[Full disclosure: im a ff writer who loves concrit and has ambitions to maybe publish something original one day]
I’ve had conversations about this too and honestly in a lot of ways I blame agents and the people who are acquiring these works from fanfiction authors and simply not preparing them for the difference in a publishing career. I mean, to be far, you are just as likely to see a statement from these authors say “my agents said not to say this…” but I do think there is something to what your idea. It’s a different interaction when you are a fan fiction writer to when you are a published author and people make the transition and keep treating it all the same!
yeah, it definitely existed before - I'm thinking Anne Rice, Laurel K Hamilton - but I don't know if there just wasn't the freedom to rally silencing mobs before or if it's various elements of industry indifference putting authors in the content grist mill with little prep, or a mix.
I was so busy still processing this was an alternate universe where the ancient roman empire never ended, apparently colonized the whole world, and then went on to colonize other universes, that the "secret lab of human experiments" just hit me like a truck.
Nothereforit174 has to be Molly’s sock puppet, ‘cause no way someone would be dedicated enough to drop 19+ comment, which are several paragraphs long, just 'cause they like the author 😂 somebody come get them 💀
Especially since they claim they haven’t read the book yet….yet are defending it this much on a random video
The only thing I could think of is that if I wanna give the upmost benefit of the doubt is that it's a friend/supporter of Molly; however, that would be really bad because that's literally how Molly got into drama in the first freaking place so even in my most benefit of the doubt "excuse" I could give, even so it's like, have you learned nothing????🤦🏽♀️
@@ofthewilderwoods worse, in some comments they haven't read it and in others they have 😭
I don’t like to make assumptions like this but it has to be Molly or maybe someone in her camp like a friend. There’s no way anyone would be defending a book that wasn’t released and allegedly haven’t read this hard
so she lowkey forgot to check on her best friend all that time.....
HIGH KEY. She just is like, "Free, my friend, okay?" and Prince Colonizer is like, "Sure!" and that's pretty much that until SHOCK, we find out Prince Colonizer was lying. Whomst could have foreseen.
Just to counter any "why are you such a hater" vibes for one star reviews a tiny bit, I actually found your account because I could not stand a very popular booktok book and was feeling like I was missing something, and then one of your videos ripped it apart point by point and added several things I hadn't considered! It was so appreciated after feeling like I was the crazy one. Thanks for your reviews, they are appreciated! It definitely makes me trust your recs more too, knowing we dislike the same things. :)
which one was it? :o
I studied this topic in university and I can't believe someone with family experience would give this issue this kind of treatment. I was so excited to read this book before I started seeing all the reviews about how these issues interacted with the romance plot. If I were the author, I would be mortified if my family read or interacted with this book in any way. I feel like this should've been a writing experiment/exercise that never saw the light of day.
If the author themself compared the relationship to “zutara on steroids”, I don’t understand why they would be confused by backlash. Zutara gets backlash to this day and it’s not even a canon relationship. I say this as someone who liked zutara as a kid and still has a soft spot for it now. Anyone who likes zutara is well aware of the backlash. I don’t know why she thought there would be no backlash.
I also wonder why people compare their adult media to kids shows and then get surprised when others treat it like ya 😂
I have so many examples of the author talking about this book as, essentially, a colonizer romance. I really hated the part where the defense of this work became a backtracking on that. Like, the tweets are still up! The screenshots exist! We can see it!!
@@dania7989 Right. Comp titles are YA, a lot of the blurbs were from YA authors, and it's published as YA outside of the US, and yet everyone was like, "How dare you assume this was YA." WHAT.
Also the lady literally said on social media multiple times it was inspired by unit 731 and other Chinese people are saying she’s making little sense by calling herself “Manchu” which apparently isn’t a thing.
@@ladygrey4113 Manchu is a recognized minority in China. The contention is that Mainland Chinese people do not use the term Manchuria to refer to that region anymore. That region is now just known as the Northeast. The term Manchuria is closely associated to Manchukuo which was a Japanese imperial puppet state during their invasion and colonization. That alone isn’t the reason though, Manchu people are not the only minorities in that region so it isn’t an accurate or inclusive term for that area. However, the English language still uses Manchuria/Manchurian regularly.
When authors confuse reviews with harassment, I usually end up deciding that they’re too unintelligent for their books to be any good.
Yes! If they do not want to read negative reviews, they can actively avoid reading reviews in general. But they must be aware that readers have the right to dislike and explain why they dislike a book! Any artist putting their art out in the world may face critique, such a basic thing
This!!
She’s receiving death and rape threats and was review bombed I believe so...kind of a lot to “critique” a young woman this way but also I don’t Fckin care what white people think of a Manchurian writing about their own oppression. They are the last ones who get to determine correct way to handle anything
Someone who thinks like that doesn't try to see things objectively. In order to improve, you probably need to do that sometimes.
You would think this author would have learned something when the Cait Corrain thing blew up. Guess she wasn't paying attention.
Excellent review, and nuanced! One thing I don’t see enough is that Japan’s crime in 731 have been attributed to Rome. I agree that Ancient Rome did its fair share of problematic things but you can’t pin Japanese crimes on them. These are real countries with real histories so either make a fully fictional world or keep it Japan instead of Rome.
My country has had two white man colonizers, on top of being occupied by Japan. This book will be a no for me.
@lovelove-cs7zh i know that one. I'm Filipino and the big bookstore chain here in the PH promotes it a lot. I am not into Reylo either, so it's a no for me. Gorgeous covers though.
@lovelove-cs7zhI DNFd this one halfway. If you want an Asian YA fantasy with colonizer themes done well, The Last Bloodcarver is stunningly excellent. And from your photo if you like Naruto I suggest another Asian YA Fantasy called Spin of Fate. Both are 2024 debuts and far better than this book.
This is my first comment, but as someone who would like to be a published author one day, I love your videos so much, they make things clearer for me, even as a black female writer. Thank you so much!
I love that, thank you! And thank you for watching and commenting. It means a lot ❤️
I love how you call the LI "prince oppressor" practically the whole time 😂😂😂
Right!!! I'm like we need make this a thing. Lol.
I like to call him ‘colonizer prince’ or ‘white shiro ishii’ because god gave me a bad sense of humour.
He doesn't need an actual name. He's just Prince Oppressor
It’s killing me 😂😂😂😂
Saw some supporters of this book claim it's dark romance. Um, that doesn't negate the criticism though😅
Yep, hearing dark romance from these people I’m also like…you keep using that word but it doesn’t seem to mean what you think it does
It definitely doesn't negate criticism, but it's very good to keep that context in mind WHILE giving critique on a book. 'Dark romance' recognises that the contents are not aspirational; it provides the fantasy of that questinable romance anyway, on purpose. Questioning the whole validity of 'negative' or 'humiliating' romantic fantasies is another conversation entirely, but one that we always brush against if we actually want to discuss these things based on some deeper review and not just 'bad things are bad'.
I think these people exist in an echo chamber and don’t really understand that these things won’t fly with a lot of folks
@@nootnewt9323 Truth!
Oh Jesus Christ thank you for the review and thank you for such a transparent and honest reading of the book. As a Chinese person myself, me and other CN ppl in Twitter were constantly being shut down when the discourse was going on and being told by white people that we didn’t read the book or that it was a “dark romance” that has nothing to do with Japanese war crimes or their colonial history when the author VERY EXPLICITLY SAID that it was based off of unit 731 and that it was a romance. It was so fucking frustrating to watch people run circles to defend it on the basis that people who criticised it fairly were “puritans” or “antis” 🫠🫠
I'm also Chinese and I definitely saw what you are describing too. Love being put under the bus just so the Western audience can get their E2L or Reylo fix /sarcasm. There isn't anything wrong with liking E2L or Reylo or whatever, but I think those folks, many of whom are white and never read the book, are taking it too far all for the sake of defending the sanctity of their fandom enjoyment at the expense of Chinese people who have genuine issues with how Molly has handled certain topics in her book. Honestly Anti/proshipping has nothing to do with the original issues people brought up, especially concerning Antony's fictional Unit 731. It shouldn't suck up all the air in the room because uninformed people think that "uwu CN people are trying to take away our dark romance!!"
I find it wild that (as much as I understand it from Reddit) the "friend" that ppl say is most likely Xiran orchestrated this whole drama by being overcautious and misrepresenting things heard in private and yet no one is really talking about it.
I saw those text messages, and that part 100% stood out to me. I didn’t want to deep dive into alla that here because truly this is all interpersonal he said she said that leaked. But when I saw what was basically oops I must’ve misrepresented how much and how badly we talked about you!!!! I about lost it…
@@mynameismarinesI don't have any ill feelings towards them and I understand that it was from the heat of the Cait situation that they were key player in but with the amount of vicious HATE Molly has gotten I think it's just fair to publicly take responsibility for the misunderstanding that started it all. Bc when it was time to take credit for uncovering the review bombing they were everywhere but now... silence. I was so disappointed.
I’m way behind, what happened?
it was so sick it was marketed at enemies to lovers romance and she basically proved she did do what she did do bc she posted her critics mixed w rabid responses to make it seem like all the criticism were coming out of no where
As someone who reads a lot of manwha and manga in the fantasy romance genre, I am really concerned with how many stories thay depict a woman being forced in a romantic relationship with their abuser or person who legitimately cause their demise, and it always gives me such an ick that women getting abused and hurt by men, but suddenly go back to them even all the pain they have caused is so popular. People would often give an exuse of "it is just a story, so let people read what they want to read." I know it is fiction. I am not forcing you to stop reading them, as long as you don't relate it to your real life. But that also won't stop me from calling out on how toxic and abusive romance is being romanticized these days, and that we should really stop romanticizing women getting hurt by their abusers in stories.
(A quick heads up, Molly’s surname rhymes with ‘lung’ the ‘aye’ sound doesn’t exist within Mandarin)
I was an early ARC reviewer for this book who rated it 2 stars, and does think it’s a colonizer romance, but I didn’t really think it endorsed colonialism. Just that it didn’t handle the conversation about colonialism well. The most annoying part of this was all the people who hadn’t read the book from both sides then misconstruing what I had said. Like I could tell who’d seen my review and then just… missed the point.
Thank you for the correction! I'll be sure to say it correctly next time.
I feel like one of the things that I forgot to talk about where the weird things that inadvertently confirmed colonialist sentiments, like the fact that Rome had SCIENCE and Er-Lang had MAGIC. And apparently, Er-Lang was so science-less that she was like, "We don't even have medicine or surgery!!!" which is just the kind of thinking that colonialists use as excuses. Same goes with Prince Colonizer talking about how Er-Lang needs to progress and let their magic users evolve and the fact that the didn't let Rome conquer them because might equals right. And while you could argue that the work doesn't confirm that, the fact that Ruying will have to use and evolve and use her magic to defeat Rome.
I hope you didn't get too much backlash on your review!
Well maybe you should’ve waited until it came out because it pisses some of us off when you discourage marginalized women from being read and use sentiments only you can understand as criticism. You created your own problem. And I don’t think you get to determine that. Chinese people have said it handled it well so maybe some people need to ask if they’re relevant to this because colonization isn’t universal in how it happens nor is literary approach and style. So maybe you’re looking for a western story and western approach to colonization
@@Nothereforit174 What do you think ARC copies are for? Review. And I’ve seen Chinese readers say that it was handled poorly. There is no objective truth here and you getting pissed off at people because you don’t know how to handle differing opinions is not actually convincing anyone that this book is worth a try. Perhaps use your time writing up your own review of how this handle anti-colonialist message so well you’ve dedicated all this time in my comments.
@@mynameismarinesI managed to escape the worst of it thank god. But that was genuinely something that annoyed me, because it felt like a lazy reiteration of the “mr magoo” or “noble savage” stereotypes where we have some mystical knowledge that allowed us to go on that long. When in reality like… China invented guns? And gunpowder? And rockets? Like i get that it’s not earth, but it’s wild to be trying to tell a story abt decolonization and then take your fantasy chinese ppl and go ‘no, but they’re mystical and have ZERO TECHNOLOGY.’ Like no, China had technology, and it wasn’t even a thing of differing priorities in technology, where like a lot of Indigenous technologies just weren’t focused on warfare. China had warfare technology, and liked to use it, and for the book to just… skip over that felt really gross. Also like… up until the 20th century most of china didn’t use western medicine bc it was more likely to get you killed than chinese medicine which is a whole other discussion.
Prince Colonizer is literally taking me out 😭😭😭
Also feel free to tag me in any comment thread that is giving you trouble about your review. I could never be a booktuber because I feel yall are too nice to other reviewers and authors who come to harass you. I would be dragging people left and right.
Negative reviews are necessary and crucial to critical discourse. How can we develop media literacy without critical reviews?!? Help me understand pls
The art is already out and published. Authors can’t take it back so they might as well focus on the next project and move on. You can’t unring a bell so everyone should just engage respectfully and then move on to the next work.
We get it. You have an attitude, it’s not wrong to question a reviewer. The work isn’t published and using a popular platform to paint a very negative idea during the most crucial period(pre order tells the publisher if readers want more from a writer so imagine if it’s as good as some Chinese people have said and handles decolonization well from their perspective, but it got tanked and then no more Manchurian fantasy sci fi which is already...non existent). I will always question the need to be overzealous about criticism of women from marginalized backgrounds, especially in this case because Marines is not Manchurian. I don’t like it when anyone isn’t from a group nor a country but tells the people how they must handle their story. Even the way the Chinese wrote literature is different and Marines isn’t even Chinese. The author is. It’s her peoples story she is basing this off of. I want to see more people who relate get their hands on the book before the narrative becomes it’s a bad colonizer romance(which we could get in Chinese history and why that’s not necessarily bad but honest about tough choices women were often forced to make to protect their clans when China was split into kingdoms). It’s one thing to Pan a book by a privileged person early because it’s spreading hate or something. But when it’s other marginalized people and we don’t know enough about their situation to be their jury, then we can let them have some benefit of the doubt until more people buy so that we don’t become the reason there’s less of POC overall being published. Asian hate is still a problem, I’m not gonna pretend it’s not imperative to be responsible about how we handle each other’s futures and get into more informed conversation beyond ourselves. Chang is experiencing high rates of sinophobia, including death and rape threats right now for even writing this book or standing up for herself. I’m not gonna say “don’t support her everyone” before we read it because I already saw a bunch of easily influenced people say they wouldn’t buy it based off this review or seeing in on romantasy list(she doesn’t pick those and that’s not the primary marketing, it’s not listed at all on Penguin as romance, just she mentions it now but it doesn’t even meet the genre rules so...but that’s another topic) point is people are easily influenced so there’s no reason even criticism can’t be challenged so that people are thoughtful is all. And personally as an artist...I don’t really care if a bell is rung. plus writers market before during and after release for a period so they literally can’t just move on. Readers don’t understand how involved they have to be to sustain a career
@@Nothereforit174 genre Romance is not the only type of book that can contain romance or romantic elements. Plenty of books have romantic elements but don't fit the genre definition of Romance.
The more I see fans of a book aggressively going after reviewers who are posting their honest opinion after reading the book the less I want to pick that book up.
Please consider channeling your love for this book into a review of your own instead of continuing to go after other reviews.
And hey, according to Publisher's Weekly Molly sold this book in a three-book major deal so Del Rey is probably throwing significant money and resources into marketing which is something that moves the needle on pre-orders more than a couple influencer reviews.
@Nothereforit174 You're not fooling anyone lol
@@Nothereforit174girl relax and sit down. you won't get paid for all that bootlicking
I haven’t been watching Booktube in so long and don’t have TikTok so I’m out of the loop when it comes to what’s going on out in the world. I really enjoy your insight on these things.
I meant to watch this earlier and didn't get around to it until now. I was also someone who had followed and wanted to support TGUWG and Molly after the Cait Corrain incident, but the critical reviews (the actual critical reviews) had put me off, especially when I kept hearing mention of Unit 731. So I looked it up, because I had never heard about this before, and I was left nauseated at what I had read. I couldn't imagine using this as the backdrop for a romance, let alone this particular tragedy that affected her own family and people.
Getting to the last part in your review really cemented that disgust for me. And this is SO common in media - where the main character feeling betrayed stems from them being lied to and deceived and not anything of the other issues that come from that betrayal. If the character was supposed to be written as selfish, if that was a trait they had, then that's one thing. But these protagonists never are. They're supposed to be seen as pinnacles of selflessness, the good-est of the good, yet they consistently act out in these selfish ways, they'll take moments like this and make it about them, and I genuinely do not think this MC would care if it hadn't been her best friend and she hadn't been so directly lied to.
Anyway, immediate follow from me. You explained all of this so well and you seem like a very eloquent, thoughtful, and respectful person.
molly x chang was caught tracking down the social handles of critical reviewers, screenshotting reviews, and asking "this you?" and then turning that whole debacle into an "i'm getting harassed on twitter" and absolve herself of answering to reviewers who'd never been in drama before her who tried reasoning with her privately. sure it's wrong what happened on twitter, but she needs to apologize for invading reader spaces like it's not hard. it's upsetting she didn't learn anything from cait corrain sabotaging her own debut. take care of yourself and thank you for an in depth review.
If this is true then Cait Corrain must be growing on her like a symbiote 💀💀💀
That's not even what happened tho? Someone sent Molly a review, she complained to a friend in private, and it got back to the reviewer (whose sister also happens to be a debut). The reviewer kept claiming they were "doxxed" when literally their review link led back to their GR private profile.
So many of these "enemies to lovers" romances get comped to the Zutara pairing, and I've been thinking about it a lot as I rewatch AtLA. The reason Zuko is such a compelling character (and therefore a compelling love interest) is that he has a messy but very earned redemption arc. Like.... he spends the vast majority of the series figuring out how to reconcile his upbringing with his lived experience, and then even when he figures out what kind of person he wants to be, other characters do not automatically forgive and trust him! He has to work hard to earn it!
But when it comes to all these books that are using Zutara as a comp, I don't know that I've ever read one that puts the same amount of care into a redemption arc. Too many of these "enemies to lovers" books just boil down to, "Well isn't forbidden love kind of hot?" Part of me thinks this is the endgame of trope-specific publishing, but it's so disappointing.
It's also important to note that Zuko's redemption arc doesn't stem from him falling in love with Katara or any other person that Fire Nation colonized.This internal change is completely separate from his love life. He sees that his country was wrong, so he changes on the inside and than becomes the Firelord and changes his country.
And that's why most colonizer romances don't work, in my opinion. In most cases the colonizer changes because he falls in love with the victim of colonization. Also marketing colonizer romance as enemies-to-lovers is a bit icky, in my opinion. When your characters are enemies, it sort of implies that they are equals. The oppressor and the oppressed can not be equals by default.
It boils down to fandoms taking guys and infantilizing them
to be “cute angry bois.” Zuko especially is faced with learning how the fire nation has hurt other people and it shakes him to his core. I think one of the most powerful things in the show is when he’s trying to fire bend and he realizes he can’t because he’s not as angry anymore so he has to learn a new method. He had to unlearn everything and relearn it. But that’s the problem fandoms don’t care about that, they want cute boys.
It’s a shame because we’re expected as readers to excuse horrible things a MALE (bc they’re always men) LI’s crimes because they’re hot. I’m just not interested in that.
Zuko is kind of coddled for most of the series and only really makes one serious mistake at the end of book 2 I honestly find his redemption arc the most over-rated one in fiction. I mean its ok but I'm just sick of it being brought up as perfect when he's barely a villain more of a rival.
Zuko doesn't work hard to be trusted Aang just gets forced to put up with him because he needs a Firebending teacher for plot reasons.
Zuko isn't a love interest for Katara at all so he's not compelling as one. Shipping isn't the show there's no love triangles even in it. If making an untended pairing canon is all you want from a romance arc then of course the romance writing is going to be garbage.
despite Zuko’s good character arc, Zutara is still a colonizer x colonized ship :p
i think the only thing preventing this from being undeniable is that zutara isn’t canon. but if it WAS canon, you can bet that his redemption absolutely would’ve been intertwined with a love for Katara.
it always plays out that way. and even if it didn’t, it wouldn’t really make a difference. if the romance comes after redemption instead of during, it just means Katara becomes the reward for redemption instead of the vehicle for it.
@@cuddlewuffleI agree with this and also it’s non canon. Canonically she ends up with Aang who is not a colonizer. I’m not sure why zutaras fight so hard for a ship that doesn’t exist. I think in the show Katara and Zuko had like one scene together before he finally joined.
We should talk about how this author is going after and/or sending friends after reviewers who leave low star reveiws. She's doing almost the same thing as Cait Corrain, except she's not hiding it, and people are just brushing it aside. I don't understand.
It's hilarious how you went into all of this with the intention of defending the author and now you're roasting the book 😂
How do books like this get picked up by an agent, go through rounds of editing, bought by an editor, go through more rounds of editing and still come out poorly edited, nonsensical 1 star reads? 🤨
I'm becoming very confident they just aren't willing to pay editors anymore and they are just running manuscripts through an algorithm to see if they have the "right" buzzy elements to fit what the algorithm thinks is successful. They then just put enough marketing and special editions into the book to ensure it will be. Haven't read this book yet but I'm getting that vibe from quite a few "bestsellers" these days
I am shooketh. I read books that were all 4 star ranked on Good reads and they have a lot of men abusing women etc. It's crazy.
@@ellys106 As someone training to be an editor...probably. This stuff is the Shein of the book world.
Have you read it? Because this review thinks it’s odd that it’s set up like a Chinese fantasy drama but that’s normal for Chinese YA writers. Molly is a Chinese immigrant. Antony is an obvious reference to cleopatra and Antony, she doesn’t just love her colonizer, no she’s terrified but using her skills to see if she can hopefully bring about peace during an inevitable course. It’s a political decision many women were forced to make throughout history, just not as assassins obviously(that we know of, someone poisoned some folks here and there and everyone had same sex servants) And the book is a set up for more so who knows how it’ll end considering it didn’t end well for cleopatra.
@@Nothereforit174I read it. Ruying falls into his arms willingly just after she kills for him for the first time. She does it for comfort. It's written like she falls for him very nearly instantly. And she falls HARD, she has opportunities to let him be killed! She actively stands in between him and the resistance! It literally takes her seeing Unit 731 warcrimes to FINALLY drop her defenses of him and "realize" he's a colonizer
After just one more crappy romantacy that completely fails at saying something despite all the dark themes, I'm starting to form the conspiracy theory that publishers choose these lower tier manuscripts on purpose because the buzz, hate reading, bashing and discourse is free publicity and easy money in comparinson to something that is actually good that they had to market themselves and will take a while in getting known from mouth to mouth.
If they completely destroy the author's chances of an actual career because of the horrible debut, then it's all the same to them, there's always new mediocre manuscripts out there.
Corporate greed is everywhere after all -_-
A lot of authors these days are found on AO3 and TikTok. A lot of these guys aren’t good writers but there is a sizable frothing at the mouth audience that’ll inhale this book. And that audience tends to buy books and maybe even multiple copies of it
@@nootnewt9323 tbh some of the stuff I've seen in Ao3 is far superior to many of these new romantacy novels. And that's exactly my point, publishers know they are going to make a quick buck from the rabid audience, but it will not withstand the scrutiny of people outside the juvenile niche, nor will it remain once the trend dies out. Publishers don't care anymore about good stuff that will leave a mark for years to come, they just want something that will sell fast. They don't care about the author either because they threw them out in the world when they were not ready and possibly ruined their reputation having their name already tied to a mediocre product
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a colonizer!
Honestly, we spend the majority of the book watching the interaction between our main character and the love interest, who is a colonizer... 😬
Exactly. They can say it's not a colonizer romance but... I'd direct them back to my original comment@@mynameismarines
So is everyone actually Chinese who said this was a takedown of colonization irrelevant because everyone non Chinese didn’t get it....I just want to know when we start telling people who they are and what they’re qualified to speak on and how. Because maybe you all have pretty histories. But I do recall some of us have mixed up ones and maybe she didn’t want to run from that but if you read the very beginning she quite literally call them colonizers and speaks about their destruction. So we’re planning this Chinese immigrants book before it’s out...cool. Not like they would know anything. I mean a stolen indigenous woman had to work for the conquistadors and be his sexual slave. Some call her a traitor. A whole fantasy book about it reimagining her is coming out. I guess that’s gonna be panned too.
@@Nothereforit174I really don’t understand what your comment is getting at. I read the book. I shared my opinion on the book with examples. A book can claim to be about something, and I don’t have to think it was done well. I’m happy for everyone who read this and did think it was done well, but that’s not me, and using my opinion to make assumptions and leaps is kind of wild.
@@Nothereforit174did you really just suggest that a bipoc woman might have a pretty history while talking about colonisation? 💀
I genuinely do not understand what's going on with editing in tradpub books lately - the quality of books these publishers are putting out is shocking
its the fanfiction/fandomification
That is why dune and books written by our grand parents and great grand parents are starting to do well again.
@@miscalotastuff733 not the 'things were better in the good old days' argument. When I mean lately I mean the last two years, not the last 6 decades, and I'm not happy to disparage a modern book written by a WOC by comparing it unfavorably to a book from 1965 written by a white man. 'ooh the classics are just superior' nope. Not doing it.
@TheNamariel No just pointing out many young people are reading older titles and ignoring the new ones even if they good.
Hard truth is a lot of agents/publishers are fanfic readers these days. For example: There is a certain agent who seeks out reylos and publishes them. They are not the only one who does this.
I can't really speak about the book since I haven't read, and TBH I don't think I will. I've sort of been put off by what I've heard about it and the author. I follow the private reviewer that was accused of review bombing Molly X Chang's book online, so I was watching the discourse kind of unfolding in real time.
I do sympathize with MXC for what they went through with the Cait Corrain situation. Obviously, NONE of the authors who were CC's victims of her racist review bombing deserved that. So I can understand that coming off that situation, MXC's feelings probably on high alert, not knowing which reviews are genuine reviews vs which is another case of review bombing. And I've seen people say that the Private Reviewer who MXC went after should cut MXC some slack for what they went through with CC, but in my opinion, its exactly for that reason why we shouldn't cut MXC slack. I feel that MXC should have known better.
To automatically accuse a review you don't like as a review bomb is not the way an author should behave. I mean, the book community has already had this conversation on the subject of author's in reviewer spaces to the point of becoming a broken record. Obvi, we can't stop authors from reading reviews, but the reviewers shouldn't be punished for their interpretation, feelings and opinions on a book simply because the author chose to have their feelings hurt, right? Not to mention, MXC doxxed the private reviewer's goodreads account, which she had deleted once before due previous harassment as well. And then (ALLEGEDLY), to use your publishing influence to go after the sister of the private reviewer who is a fellow POC 2024 Debut as well, even though she had nothing to do with the review, feels like a re-ignition of the previous situation.
IDK sorry for the ramble. i'm just typing my feelings.
It feels like this author was too immature a writer to tackle these complex themes. Also to pretend the prince wasn't the love interest makes no sense if she has any type of romance with him regardless of how it ends. I saw that commented all over Twitter and I was confused on why people thought if they don't end up together he's not a love interest. 🙄
This. They've been gaslighting the reviewers by saying they don't understand who the love interest is. The oppressor/colonizer is the love interest for 90% of this book (a book that is on many of the current "most anticipated romantasy releases" lists btw) - why would it matter who she ends up with in the end? How is that relevant to what this book is about? Just incredible the amount of backtracking & gaslighting that has been going on.
@@youisabumyou know she didn’t pick those lists right. She doesn’t call it a romance. And stop thinking complex feelings about someone you’re in forced proximity with must be romantic...this girl has already been harassed for being Manchuria and kept her name on the book because she’s proud of her heritage and her people for surviving genocide. Read the damn book or leave her alone. Stop defining shit by everyone but the person. A lot of misinformed people who think romance is implied in everything where oh idk other Chinese people don’t see it don’t make something a romantasy. I don’t care what white editor is anticipating her romantic blah blah😢unless you’re saying Chinese people are less educated about their own lives. Be my guest
Seems out of line to make the immigrant who grew up being told to hide her name because her people experienced a genocide the immature one when you’re going off information from online and she’s being told to die right now for being Manchurian and Chinese. Its not a romance and editors and her, maybe, would know. But go ahead and tell them not read her book. Don’t support Manchurians and stunt her early on top of the harassment she’s receiving from racists. Also that’s the whole major plot point that’s needed for a romance to count as romance in the modern genre. No happily ever after= not a romance, it’s not debatable. It’s genre rules. Non romance readers or those who haven’t studied it from a critical standpoint will not change that to criticize her work. I hate to sound rude but the comments are increasingly frustrating for a book that isn’t out yet from a marginalized author from the people who experienced the genocide! And stop acting like youth is a barrier to writing like that hasn’t been disproven for centuries, it’s just insulting at this point. And maybe a romance isn’t romance because you found something romantic. There is a difference. If I know people I bet she had conflicting feelings about his personality and that was taken as “romantic”, when really that’s a common thing I deal with myself when I know I love certain people but I have to hold them accountable for something or they have a belief I won’t tolerate because naturally you see more of a person’s “good” side if you’re forced to spend time with them. Or maybe they think her doing an obvious political decision(acting as an assassin for him) to protect her people(women did compromising things in Chinese and global history with and without choice for their people) is romantic because she isn’t spitting at him and getting herself killed. Idk how much here though because I refuse to trash it or praise it before I read it but I do see some themes off the bat that I recognize that were dismissed by people who could’ve used some historical context, a Shakespeare reading, and I do support other marginalized women until they give ME a reason not to. And I don’t mean a booktuber and overzealous white people said a lot of things
Genuinely. I wonder if no one ever stops to think about how this is actually giving the author an even worse look…
@@mynameismarinesSeriously, this is unhinged. The gaslighting has been really ugly but this is just disturbing... Telling ARC readers (many of them POC) that they didn't understand what they read or who the love interest was or what the supposedly nuanced depiction of colonialism & imperialism was actually trying to say is a choice... Like are they going to redo this whole book now?🤦♀️
I love your spoiler-filled reviews the most! They’re always so thoughtful, with some mix of funny and infuriating!
Thank you for the kind words and for watching ❤
For me, this (ETA: response to the ARC reviewers) felt like the culminating example of the 'we said it was dark content! if you didn't like it that means you just can't handle it and aren't the target audience!' reductive anti-intellectual dismissal of critique that I've seen trotted out for e.g. dark romance even towards criticisms FROM dark romance readers. (And there are other versions of this excuse for other genres.) It deliberately blurs the lines, removes all complexity to media discussion and tries to create a....not quite Strawman, but a dumbed-down position they can insist the 'opponent' is always taking. And this is the nadir: an author insisting that lengthy and specific criticism is simply bad faith hate-mobbing because it....exists.
People are more than allowed to criticize execution and handling of dark concepts. When I write dark fiction, I am well aware that it may see backlash from people simply for whom it crossed a personal line or who weren't expecting/prepared for the content! For some people the execution may not land! If you purposefully write something transgressive, you should be prepared for it to touch nerves and not throw a Gabbie Hanna tantrum over it!
Sometimes those criticisms of execution are subjective. Sometimes those criticisms may be clickbait from someone who's not your target audience and is just going to repeat how weirded out they are. Sometimes the criticism may be good but difficult for you to hear, or geared towards a style and direction you're not aiming for. That is how criticism works. That is how reviews work. Reviews are for readers. I have read negative reviews that convinced me I would LIKE the book because I could see where their tastes divulged from mine. That is why as a reader you should mindfully engage with reviews.
People who try to not only vilify but outright ignore the idea of critiquing the execution of a dark theme or concept are IMO ineptly - and in bad faith - misusing the valid discussion point that sometimes people do come to a genre they don't like and complain that it is that genre. A reviewer talking in-depth about how they personally feel an author mishandled evoking a real life atrocity is not actually equivalent to complaining a musical has people break into songs or complaining a children's show doesn't go harshly gritty with a discussion of war crimes. Saying 'it's dark romance' is not a coherent response to someone saying 'you handled this with all the nuance and skill of a buffalo trying to re-shelve plates in a china shop with its forehead.'
You are one of the few reviewers that I truly consider when reading and engaging with books and the discourse that surrounds them. Your thoughts continue to make me think about reading differently and help me challenge myself as a reader as well as a writer. I don't always agree with your ratings (haven't read this one yet so no thoughts there), but I always appreciate your thoughtfulness when discussing books.
I definitely think that when it came to this book, the marketing was all over the place. The way the tropes were advertised gave it such YA vibes but also the heavy emphasis on Zutara made me think that the prince would be endgame (although the title of her sequel may suggest otherwise idk). So when I started to see conflicting reviews about the content, I felt like the book marketing was a lot of false promises to pull in a bigger audience.
I remember the anonymous reviewer, who has a 2024 debut sister, was being harassed for a review before so she had to delete her goodreads and some of her socials. Its sad if she has to delete again because of this
The author in question doxxed her so I wouldn't be surprised
The author did d o x x them so I wouldn't be surprised :(
Me and my husband have a running joke that in American media the whole conflict usually is : BUT YOU LIED TO ME ! (And then it’s instantly resolved )
I find it hilarious when in situations like this is like : can we focus on the important part, please ?
I knew something bad had to come out about Antony because we need drama for the cliffhanger so people will buy book 2!
Missed your videos. Am glad you talked about this. The whole 'colonizer romance' aside, the author handled the situation so badly that I wont be reading anything from them anytime soon.
So there’s someone who has incredible accuracy of guessing the Illumicrate monthly books and
*POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR SUBSCRIBERS* this book is likely the April book. As someone who really has a distaste for colonizer romance, I decided to skip Aprils box. Soooo thanks for your review!!!
FYI-- Illumicrate also has a discord where they regularly mention these sorts of things. I think they confirmed after Cait Corrain that they already had 4 of the affected authors in their 2024 monthly box line-up. January and April were the first two. And they confirmed this book in particular there.
There are also google sheets for both Fairyloot and Illumicrate that are community sourced and I've only seen 100% accuracy from them in the past >2 years that I've been watching.
@@MeMyshelfAndI I honestly didn’t know that there was a discord with this information. Thanks for the confirmation. I decided to skip the month after I found out it was this book because, like I said, colonizer romance is icky and this book honestly sounds really poorly written even outside of that.
@@ninjakat26 I didn't care for the synopsis, but picked up the arc because I was curious about the discourse back at the end of last year. I wanted to DNF after page 2 (I'd already sent my friend 6 annoyed screenshots on discord, lol) and forced myself to finish chapter 1, but I unfortunately hated the writing style so much that I couldn't even engage with it on a story level or continue on.
The whole situation is so messy, starting with Cait Corrain and devolving into all the harassment and personal attacks. But solely as a book divorced from all that? It's just not one I can recommend.
28:46 I wish you could see my face. I’m cringing so hard. I also just hate the “Roman empire but it never fell” because people are often too lazy to describe how this happened. And also this makes no sense at all? So it’s basically 2024 with planes and portals in the sky? What happened to editors who actually pushed back on these nonsensical things?
Also idk why so many people insist on dark romance being about a man harming a woman. Like why can’t we have a man and a woman who are equally as manipulative and evil. That’s what I want to see in a dark romance.
you are so right about dark romance being too much about a man harming a woman, like I want them to be equals and evil as each other, or at least the woman not being the victim all the time at least!
@@SteamCyberGothPunkI’m more compelled by female characters but it seems like a lot of books have a female protagonist who just exists to tell us how hot and mysterious the male LI is. Give me a morally gray woman, give me an evil woman, give me a manipulator. But I guess a lot of writers just see women as vessels for men to drag around. It’s a shame too.
@@nootnewt9323 Oh god I need more complex female characters in books, give me all sorts, well meaning cringe fails, fucked up evil gals, etc. Pleasseee I'm starving! Like they can have a love interest but I want them to be more bold and in charge and have more going on than what authors give us
@@lovelove-cs7zh oh yeah Ive heard great things about Dungeon Meshi so I'd like to check it out and I'll look in those other books too, thanks for the suggestions!
I agree with your wholeheartedly about the editing - i finished it because i had the arc and honestly once i heard about all the drama i was hoping to love it. But i told myself two things can be true - a human can go through something terrible and have an awesome concept … and not implement it that was a way I loved.
i missed you don't disappear for months again!!
"He lied to me!"
"Yep he's a liar."
"He's a liar?!"
dead
that time jump bit....skipping over the most meaty, complicated part of the story and character evolution....that bugs me as a reader
I relate so hard to the beginning of this vid when you talk about trying to bring nuance and a different mindset to hate (or love) trains on the internet. Unfortunately, I think I've just come to the conclusion that no matter how much of an 'ally' people want to believe they are, when they get the serotonin boost from either hating (or enjoying) something, all that allyship becomes performative and they are unwilling to examine the deeper harm their shallow sense of 'justice' is. Some might come around once the heat of the moment dies down, but it's a long, hard road to deconstructing the worldview that makes us feel good and many times, places like Twitter are just completely ineffectual in starting that change.
One thing is true for sure: the cover is BEAUTIFUL. Such a shame that the artwork is being used for this book, but I wish the artist all the best 😊
I loved the title too, that’s what made me interested in it.
I'm about a third into this video and this is how I feel about Hurricane Wars, which I just started 🥴
@@lovelove-cs7zh interesting!
Characterization shouldn't be done in the author's note. Death of the Author shouldn't just be a critical framework, we need to let books stand on their own. No bullying authors for bad books, no stanning authors and harassing their critics, and authors themselves need to not take reviews personally or assume their good intentions somehow came across telepathically.
Obviously we can still criticize and boycott authors who choose to use their wealth and platforms for evil, like JKR with her transphobia and Crichton with his climate denial.
@lovelove-cs7zh I agree, books reflect the biases of their authors and often perpetuate harmful norms. But that's still a discussion that's centered on the text of the book, which can and should be addressed by a critical review of the book. And conversely, authors shouldn't get defensive about people pointing out problematic messages in their work.
Take Stephenie Meyer. There are important discussions that we can have about how Twilight romanticizes relationships with power imbalances, reduces women to nurturing/supportive roles, and endorses purity culture. But that whole discussion can center on the books, not Meyer as a person. And maybe it's not 100% death of the author, because you can see Mormon themes throughout Meyer's work, and that's also a good discussion. But we don't know Meyer as a person because she is thankfully private about her views (jkr could take note), and so the focus is on the words on the page.
And for her part, Stephenie Meyer doesn't call critical reviews "bullying," and she doesn't send her fans into the comments and DMs of reviewers. She doesn't go on Twitter getting mad at the woke mob or write blog posts calling trans men mentally ill. And likewise, no one should be harassing Meyer, even if she did write a romance about a war criminal falling for a man she tortured. We can and should give that book 1 star and thoroughly rip it to shreds in our critiques. And I, for one, will not buying any more of her books because I don't want to financially support that worldview. But no one should be accusing Meyer herself of being a war criminal, and no one should be calling Twilight fans evil for liking a problematic series.
It's a very alarming trend that any sort of critical review is seen as attacking an author (cf. that thing going around where anything less than a 4 star rating is being mean or something like that). Reviews on blogs, YT, Goodreads, Storygraph, etc. are not for authors. Even reviews in trade publications for libraries and the industry are not "for" authors. Once that book is out in the world in any way it no longer belongs to the author and readers are going to read and interpret as they wish. This is an excellent review, Marines, and a review that engages honestly with the work. (I did enjoy that you got more and more animated the more and more unhinged the plot started to sound LOL) I wonder if this book is also a result of so many publishing houses losing experienced and qualified acquisitions and development editors through being siphoned up by conglomerates or hedge funds or whatever to where either it doesn't exist or is being run through freelancers - I can see a kernel of something in this plot, that really could have developed into something interesting and really worth engaging with had it gone through some really tough edits.
Sort of makes me think about the development of even tradpub houses requiring more social media marketability from their authors. Writers have become a product or a part of the product in themselves, and that might hit some debut people pretty hard.
Ok, so not only is this a colonizer romance, it’s also an alien romance?! /j
When I tell you I screeched when the MC casually mentioned the PORTAL IN THE SKY
@@mynameismarinesthat sounds like references to Chinese lure if you’ve ever watched Chinese fantasy dramas. I think you may have missing some needed context here because this was intentionally written as a takedown of colonization and it has had at least one major Chinese author who is serious about the subject applaud how she handled the topic. And it is true that many women throughout history had to sacrifice to work for colonizing men for political purposes or force...cleopatra(she named the character Antony, it feels like a reference but also famous indigenous women had to do the same for the English and conquistadors). Why can’t she reference that in her story?
That’s just Chinese fantasy and lure. It’s also a sci fi but like if you know Chinese pop culture it’s not strange to have a mix.
@@Nothereforit174Science fantasy is an established sub-genre but if you listened to the review I actually gave, you would’ve heard me mentioned that the way the elements of the story were fed to us caused confusion. I’d also add that the marketing did the book no favors. I also talked about the gaps in worldbuilding to help the reader understand the scope of the world. I’m very confused what you think you are achieving with these comments. If there is another reviewer who applauded this book, go listen to them. This reviewer thinks this was a bad book that was ineffective at what it attempted to do.
I haven't got anything new to add that hasn't been said already in the video and the comments but I really appreciate this video as someone who had this on their to read list. There were so many things you described that happened in this book made me furious and extremely baffled, so thanks a million for reading it and putting together this eloquent review (and consider me a new subscriber!)
No the moment you write about any possible context related to actual WW2 war crimes and the colonizers aren’t the “clear villains” you've crossed the line. If you’re writing from an entitlement to the story and history in the context of American identity politics rather than out of a genuine desire to engage with and explore the history of the people (whether you belong to the group or not) who the event that is alluded to “happened to”, you are writing for the oppressor and not for the oppressed.
The drugs thing is an actual event that British colonizers did to China- I can’t believe I have to say this but the atrocities suffered by your people isn’t a convenient background for your hot dark fantasy romance
Its crazy how the opium introduction was a real thing, multiple authors have done at least something constructive or tasteful with it, and yet its a backdrop for a enemies to lovers fanfic
Its not even an event alluding to it, no, its beat for beat the same thing but they changed Opium by a single letter
Gods bless you, Marines, for attempting to get your way through this confusing disaster of a mess. Thank you so so much for this review, the conversation - the WHOLE conversation - is necessary.
I took this off my TBR after seeing ReadswithRachel say it was disappointing so I really appreciated this deep dive. You always make really interesting points
Wait, Rachel already reviewed this book?
@@Frea_ On Goodreads not an official video. She was disappointed and gave it like a three
I know this was 1% of the whole video, but your laugh was very heartwarming lol
Thank you so much for the thorough review of this book! I appreciate the thoughtful handling of topics such as colonization and war crimes, as these traumatic events still weigh heavy on the minds of many Chinese people, hence the unfortunate heavy backlash received by the author from Chinese users. I see a tendency to reduce these historical inspirations to be part of fiction or outright deny the historical connections, and as a Chinese person it pains me to see many people don’t understand the Chinese attitude towards Japanese invasion. You have my gratitude for taking the time to read through this book and being critical of its portrayal of the subject matter.
I am so glad you mentioned the way the author portrayed the book on social media as it is a large part of my concern as well. Besides the romance being marketed as “enemies to lovers” and “Zutara on steroids”, the prince oppressor (having literally done Unit 731) is labeled as morally gray which is strange to me. Nothing should be gray about that! The author’s backtracking on the identity of the book’s colonizers on Twitter was also disappointing; she had clearly stated the story was inspired by the colonization of the Northeast and stories of Unit 731 but later said her story was completely fictional and the colonizers were white, when the only notable colonizer of Northeast China was Imperial Japan. For a book that was marketed as anti-colonial it should not be so ahistorical and backtrack on its inspirations, especially if it is marketed towards an audience that doesn’t have background knowledge on the Japanese invasion of China. The author’s research on the colonization of Northeast China came off as really substandard. It seemed to me this book leaned in too far on trope marketing and the author just did not have the skill or knowledge to handle this type of story yet. BTW, I responded to her with these concerns on Twitter and had my comments hidden and my account blocked. Authors don’t have to look at negative reviews of course, but I had Chinese friends who were interested in the book and these questions about the content went unanswered.
There is a lot of talk on social media about how the attacks on the book were either from sensitive white people or Chinese nationalists/chauvinists, and as someone who has been following Chinese social media this is not true as far as I can see. To clarify, I don’t know if the author’s claims of the link being posted on nationalist forums is true (I did not find any of these forums or screenshots of the post), but I would give her the benefit of the doubt. However, it’s easy to dismiss Chinese opinions as simply outraged nationalists due to rampant sinophobia, and people tend to not read the actual content of Chinese comments. It’s sad that people are saying most Chinese people like Molly’s book and those who don’t are nationalists, because you can tell they only care about Chinese opinions when it aligns with theirs. But I digress. I have only seen two posts about Molly on Chinese social media, one on Xiaohongshu with 10k likes that was later deleted within the same day, and one on Weibo that garnered around 1500 likes at time of writing, posted after Molly’s thread about being attacked by nationalists. Neither of these are nationalist forums, and are probably as mainstream Chinese social media can get. Most of the responses were just criticism regarding the usage of Unit 731 and Japanese war crimes as a plot device (as I mentioned, Chinese people take this much more seriously), and there was even some banter about how Harbin doesn’t claim her. The comments referencing her ethnicity (even made by Manchus themselves) were reframed to be attacks on her Manchu identity. I don’t deny that there are discriminatory comments, but they were so scarce and are not representative of the reason for Chinese criticism. It is so sad to see the author leverage sinophobia against criticism.
That’s just some thoughts I had after following the development of the debacle. Again, thank you Mari so much for your time and sensitivity. Hope the nothereforit commenter doesn’t pick a huge fight with me haha, but I’d be happy to answer any questions!
@lovelove-cs7zh You see, the use of buzzwords like “nationalist” and “incels” create this whole world of negating what others reasonably and critically think making the opinions of others seem like a bad critique thus making people sympathize even more with the victim.
Not saying those type of people exist though.
All of this dilemma and “witch hunt” partially turned in favor for the author by using buzzwords like those and sell or have more pre-orders for such book.
Now I wonder if people will have more consciousness when they read her book 😂.
yeah, i scarcely saw any comments that were ethnonationalist or incel-like. i think there was definitely misogyny unfortunately but it wasn't representative. A lot of sinophobia has political origins so accusing critics of being Chinese far-right is an easy way to discredit them, and the author's audience would just assume Chinese ethnic dynamics are similar to American racial ones. Instead of just responding to the most pressing questions the author just indiscriminately blocked all Chinese responses to her and denied her book's historical ties (while using the wrong adjective for Manchu). It's sad seeing someone whose book was largely advertised as being anti-colonial and representative of Chinese culture acting like this
It's troubling to me that this is marketed towards a mainly western audience that has nothing to do with the real world atrocities she was "inspired" by. She is inviting a western audience to enjoy this book, which from the marketing, is intended to be enjoyed as an "enemies to lovers romance", while making wild amounts of money from it. And the audience feels extremely entitled to that enjoyment. If this was handled with more care, if this was a serious exploration of its themes and had something to say about colonialism etc, this would be fine-- but instead it seems like the themes of colonialism/war crimes/genocide are mere set dressing or only there to drive the emotion of the story
You mention the dichotomy of depiction vs endorsement, but I don't think it goes deep enough. I'm not sure if I can explain this well, but have you heard of stalag novels? It was a short lived genre of erotica that became popular in Israel following the Holocaust. It depicted Nazi women torturing male captives, and would end with the heroes breaking free and taking their revenge. Ostensibly this was certainly not endorsement, but it's not as innocent as mere depiction, no?
I missed the discourse on this entirely, then got it in a book subscription box. Made it through chapter 3 before I gave up because of the writing. Thank you for confirming I'm not missing anything.
Look, I'm not against "I can fix him" romances, even though I deeply DESPISE that line of thinking, even in fiction, but it'd probably help authors if they didn't make said male love interests the actual scum of the earth.
I had 0 plans on ever reading this book (and i still doubt i ever will) but I think youre one of the most throrough and well formulated book reviewers ive seen yet. I liked that you went into detail with stuff like the marketing and how undermining one aspect of the plot (eg. the FMC’s family) ended up putting the colonizer into focus instead, it gives the person watching your videos a very solid understand of the specific narrative issues within the book.
Edited to add: if anyone sees this comment, do you have any genuinly good enemies-to-lovers books youd recommend? im not sure ive ever read a proper one (and im not sure its even my thing), but id be interested if well done
Just saw your comment. You might try Hawksong by Amelia Atwater-Rhodes. It's an older book and short but it's about an arranged marriage between two enemy shape-shifting nations. My opinion of it is definitely colored by nostalgia but if the synopsis sounds interesting I'd recommend giving it a try!
enemies-to-lovers is one of those story tropes that are actually good when done really well and executed with justice. Sadly a lot of authors failed to do so.
the whole point of enemies-to-lovers is when unlikely characters who are at odds with each other, gets to know each other, self reflects their own personal biases, unlearning their faults, and redeems themselves for their sake, for everybody, for the greater good, and for their love interest. The romance in the trope is supposed to align on the character's development (esp. from the villain's side) to achieve redemption, compensation, and compromise not just for the sake of love but for the sake of the common good; a better ending.
if their enemies-to-lovers only focusing on romanticizing problematic and manipulative red flag relationships without meeting any redemption or middle ground, as well as disregarding the dire consequences of their mistakes/crimes/flaws that affects not just the couple but also the people around them, then they truly fail what the trope really is all about.
unfortunately a lot of authors seem to fall for the latter quite a lot.
add it with their choice of characters to play as the love interest, their stories are definitely bound to be problematic af.
So happy to see you on UA-cam!! ❤
i thought the "colonizer romance" would maybe be a case of people blowing things out of proportion but then i heard unit 731 and my jaw dropped to the floor. like theres no way.
I really appreciate this video because I was interested in her book even before the Cait Corrain stuff. But after that all went down, I especially wanted to preorder it and support her. It didn’t help that the 1st printing copy looking so nice with all the details and there is a lovely art print for preordering. But from what I’ve heard from her Instagram and then here, just sounds like a lot. I don’t think I’m gonna pre order, but I think this is a book currently slated for one of my book subscriptions so I may end up with a copy anyway.
I came for the book review and subscribed because your laugh is just the best. Thank you for such a detailed review!
I feel like soooo many authors get the core relationship in an enemies to lovers trope wrong. They want to go as dramatic as possible with the idea of enemies in a weak attempt to expand the conflict in the story, so it can very easily become a "colonizer romance" or at least have the dynamic of oppressor and oppressed, bully and the bullied. In reality, enemies to lovers works best when the characters are PEERS. Think two captains of rival sports teams! Literally why aren't any of them taking notes from Beatrice and Benedict in Much Ado About Nothing, arguably one of the best depictions of enemies to lovers?
I'd say Benedict and Beatrice are rivals and not enemies, but otherwise I agree - the best versions of enemies-to-lovers is when they're on fairly equal ground (especially in their conflicts), like two unstoppable forces put against each other.
This sounds like a clusterf, badly written and explored.
I'll say that Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay is a much more nuanced take on this because one of the MCs is a concubine to the conqueror and she knows she won't leave even if given the chance because she loves this man even with all he's done. He is a butcher of her conquered people and she understands this and that he is evil, there's no, "Oh, he's a grey character because _I_ love him."
She also knows her brother is in the rebellion and he is working actively against her lover conqueror. And she doesn't tell her lover this either because she loves her brother and wabts him and the rebellion to succeed for all her people.
Bleak end but much, much better than this!
Thanks for this excellent review Marines!❤
From the summary, it sounds like the childhood friend who was a spy would have made a better main character. You would probably get a truer reaction to what is going on on the ground, especially from the (presumed) perspective of someone without magic.
The MC honestly sounds more like a secondary character who is an obstacle for the hero to confront as the story progresses. A former friend turned assassin who is a traitor to their own people who could be redeemed before the close of the story. At least that way the "enemies-to-lovers/colonizer romance" trope would be in the background rather than front and center...
i have been binging all of your content, and i love your honesty and genuine opinions! you’re one of the only booktubers i trust when it comes to book reviews/critiques. so glad you’re back :)
idk what i was expecting but i certainly was not expecting a unit 731 expy
Apparently the author said it's not that but idk how it could not be considering several people said it likely was....
In the author's note, Chang wrote: "In my desperation to cling to my grandparents and home, I stumbled across articles of Unit 731, a place that existed in Harbin during WWII, just twenty minutes from where I grew up. I realized those ghost stories that haunted my childhood were never just stories. They were memories, rooted in reality. They were a piece of history, forgotten by too many. So while To Gaze Upon Wicked Gods is fictional, its inspirations were very much real."
@MJSpice yeah, it definitely seems that way. I think the author wasn't anticipating or prepared for any negative backlash or discussion around her choices so instead of knowing how to defend herself, she argues that it was never based off of what it was so obviously based off of.
I always love your commentary and discussion! Sucks this book turned out to be such a disappointment. I read So Let Them Burn and had a really good time with it though and I hope you do as well!
Also, the discourse around reviews has truly gone off the rails in the last couple years. Like it’s truly wild the repercussions people are facing for the grievous crime of reviewing a book.
Thank you! And yes, I had hoped this book would be much, much better. I'm hoping So Let Them Burn is that for me!
And I agree. The number of people who were like, "Of course reviewers can review," but then went on to add addendums that equated any sort of criticism to bullying or harassment was too many. TOO MANY.
Anyone who says that you dont love books just isn't paying attention! (P&P? Fairyland?) Thanks for the thoughtful review, always appreciate your insights.
i just randomly rmbrd the drama around this book on twt n decided to look up reviews n these descriptions r killing me 😭😭😭 the way ppl were defending it i assumed it was at least written well or that molly was a master storyteller n thats why ppl didnt mind the colonizer thing
I absolutely love listening to your reviews, even for books that I plan on never touching, and hope you keep making them. You always put so much thought and care into your discussions that it’s easy to see that you go into reading each of these books in good faith. Since I left academia, I don’t get to talk about books with people like I used to, so your videos help fill that space, which I greatly appreciate.
The premise of the story and how she became involved with the Romans (sp?) is not well constructed. It would have been so interesting to see this truly dive into the uncomfortable discussions and exposure of being oppressed and how that affects the MC’s motives. But it feels like the author just wanted a dark/bully romance and didn’t unravel the issues, and just said it’s fine, because love. 😅
You might like The Traitor Baru Cormorant. That's it's exact premise and I feel like Baru Cormorant handles the subject with a lot more nuance
Seconding the Traitor Baru Cormorant rec! Another would be A Memory Called Empire and its sequel, A Desolation Called Peace---the romance doesn't really kick off until the colonizer has had to reckon with their prejudices against the oppressed
I've felt like the last year of "book world controversies" has had two main issues, the first being that the situations have a lot of crossover in their areas of concern, and the second that the people reacting to the situations don't feel like dealing with shades of gray and quickly repaint the problem as an absolute.
Cait Corrain's situation could have sparked conversation about book marketing, the burden on authors, the platforms we have given unregulated and unreviewed power to. Instead, all of the evil was packed into her name and none of it seemed to spill over to the areas where changes and improvement could have spared us from reliving the same hell down the line. Books like this one, where the failings belong to multiple parts of the process, are repainted as just "colonizer romance book" instead of looking at why one would feel so self-secure in linking something like Unit 731 with a novel that features romance (at any age level). The most concerning thing to me from the reviews and the analyses I've consumed of this book are that this summarizes a trend of borrowing notoriety from world tragedies to seemingly market a book on morbid curiosity, and gain more readers not because of the story's inherent elements, but instead just because this awful thing will eventually come up, you guys, you will be so surprised! Like a clickbait title.
I thought the same back with the discussions of T.J. Klune, and think the CoHo thing may be similar: the books end up having the appeal of a true crime podcast where the title is like: Her country people viciously experimented on! You will never believe what she did next. It almost feels like CoHo does not trust that she would still sell if she was honest about the themes of her books, if she pursued to publish the kind of book that can't be given a flowery pastel-tone cover and a tie-in set of nail polish.
While this can be a failure on the concept building phase on behalf of the authors, I also wonder if there's any books conceived one way, then forced to market themselves by exaggerating these tropes or themes once publication approaches. Are all interactiona between a hero and a villain now grounds enough to market a book as enemies to lovers, regardless of the outcome? This concerns me greatly too.
Love your work as always!
Honestly as soon as I heard this was written by a Reylo my opinion of it plummeted. You've already shown you're willing to excuse a hot male character committing atrocities, so I just assume you're gonna be doing the same with your MMC.
'excusing a hot male character' for something in entertainment is not a real life moral failing though?
@@jasminv8653no but it’s annoying though 🤷♀️ but I guess your logic is “as long as it’s fiction it’s ok”
I’m not someone who cares but people have opinions. Throwing the “it’s just fiction” but then engaging in it means that it means something to you right? So I don’t think the way people resonate with fiction should be just ignored because you don’t like criticism
@@jasminv8653the author herself said that the book was in part inspired by Unit 731, a real life Japanese research unit wherein some of the most horrifying and notorious war crimes by Japan were committed during WW2. 200,000-300,000 people are estimated to have been killed. the majority of these people being Chinese or Russian. men, women, and children (born from the systematic rapes that took place) were heavily experimented on. this experimentation included hypobaric pressure chamber testing, LIVE ORGAN HARVESTING, amputation, weapons testing, disease injections, and more. there was not a single survivor.
the same author, inspired by that REAL LIFE atrocity, marketed _this book_ as something that fans of Reylo would enjoy.
so, what kind of impression do you think that gives people?
oh of course she's a reylo.
@@cuddlewuffle im not saying this book specifically doesnt suck ass, i just think the arguments should have some basis in reality - like yours do. Just 'excusing male characters for [insert x toxic trait] in fiction' isnt it.
I think in my review of this arc I literally used the phrase "hello, surprise sci-fi! I thought I was getting epic fantasy! My bad!"
The marketing made this so much worse.
ur laugh is so warm and joyful, i love watching ur vids thank you for being such a bright and beautiful person
I just finished this book and my thoughts are that I could see (some of) what Chang was attempting to do and that she isn't a talented enough writer to pull it off. There were a lot of times where I wasn't sure if Ruying was being an unreliable narrator or if the narrative was trying to absolve Antony of his crimes/actions. I feel like as much as oppression is highlighted, it sometimes isn't taken seriously enough, like the /human experimentation/. That in particular felt very glossed over---and like you said sanitized---especially when the author brought attention to unit 731 and how her own family had been personally affected by it. I don't want a long and graphic section dedicated to it, but it really should have been more than a chapter or two long and focused more on actual experimentation. In the end, it came off feeling (to me at the very least) like shock value.
Missed hearing your little giggles as you read these books to filth
I can’t get over the fact that when it came depicting a fictional version of that unit, the import and weight given to it is….but this person mattered to ME. The only thing I can think is that depicting a grueling large-scale glimpse of what was happening would have made a transition to a scene where his ~conflict is one of the primary focuses very difficult to handle.
Don’t get me wrong, I think a horrifying confrontation of the fact that people can be very nice and genuinely care about a select few and turn around and be obscenely vile to masses of others they’ve dehumanized can be impactful. I’m just not sure I can imagine this author pulling it off
“The Romans” girl no
You wrote the fucking opiate crisis into this, girl you’re kidding 🥲
I love watching your reviews!
Speaking of drama, will you be talking about how the SJM Fandom harassed an artist who did a commission for Fairyloot?