I like the idea that it’s helpful to highlight why something is not ok rather than simply assuming someone should know. My ignorance is not a choice, my understanding of the wider world is limited by the resources available. This is especially true with regards to issues faced by those in the USA. The media and public culture shapes my understanding because that is all that is available to me. So the more people who help shape the media to reflect reality the better. One more voice may be all it takes to make the truth louder than the noise.
I love when you giggle about Twitter. You’re so good-natured about the absurdity of arguing, discussing, disagreeing on the internet. 😅 thank you for the discussion and the great video.
Thank you so much for this video, and for bringing such nuance to this topic! I like that you acknowledge that there's a spectrum of "problematic" in media, and that some cases aren't so cut and dry like JKR. For me, I've spent the past few months grappling with my consumption of Chinese media (incl. novels and C dramas) and promoting it on my channel. On the one hand, as a Hongkonger-American, I went through a lot of collective trauma because of what the Chinese government is doing to my ancestral homeland, and don't want to enrich their economy and the companies in it. In addition, a lot of actors in these shows have shown support for "Xinjiang Cotton," making them (by their will or not) complicit in enabling Uighur mass internment and genocide. On the other hand, I also really think some of this media, especially the more subtley subversive works, has some really valuable things to say, and I would like to bring my audience's attention to the ideas of their creators and support those people. I also think it's really important to understand where Chinese people's heads are at in a time like this, and not to see them as one collective "enemy." I guess right now, my rationale is to talk about C dramas and such, while continuing to call out the problematic issues around them - that way, maybe my audience will be introduced to interesting new media and also informed about less-discussed issues at the same time? My stance could evolve, but this is where I stand right now.
I hate how "cancel culture" has morphed from "running someone off the platform" into "voicing hypothetical criticism about a hypothetical situation." Choosing not to read a book from a certain author is NOT "cancelling." Next, I'll be told I'm cancelling James S A Corey because I'm not interested in finishing The Expanse series because it didn't vibe with me lol
Yes, I agree. "Cancel culture" is whipped out now as a counter argument to every bit of trying to talk about making decisions about how we read. In that Twitter thread, someone was basically questioning if we should be able to make decisions about what to read based on what we know about the book and the author. I was like ......literally yes???? If I can't make those decisions for myself based on that and other information, WHO IS GOING TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR ME? You don't owe any single book, or media, or piece of art your audience. And using outside context to decide what media to consume is not cancel culture.
It’s one thing to inform someone about an Authors views, opinions and actions. It’s another thing entirely to shame and harass someone for buying certain media.
"Twighlight is racist, buy second hand!" 🥴 Your points are perfectly clear. Twitter is the place where nuance and critical thinking go to die. Dunno if you watch Ashley at Bookish Realm but as a youth librarian she chose to reread the Twighlight series and do critical analysis of the first one and live video discussions for the others. The way I see it she is not helping to promote the series. She is providing a different perspective for people who may have not considered the harmful elements of the book. Thank you for another engaging video!
I do watch Ashley, but I haven't seen that analysis! After years of doing my own project through the Twilight Saga, I tend to not really consume more analysis lol. I've seen enough.
I don’t know who Ashley is, but that is still unfortunately promoting the series to me. By now, I think we all know how harmful the books are. And new readers wouldn’t exist if everyone didn’t continue posting about it and giving it more airtime in 2021
@@forbiddencave She is a youth librarian and she said the books are in very high circulation among teens. Most teens are not on BookTube and most readers are not on BookTube, we are a small community compared to the number of readers around the world . Many people actually don't know how harmful Twilight is and plenty of adults who loved the series ran out to buy Midnight Sun. People can read what they want, of course, but of some stumble upon her channel and watch the videos and still choose to read the books at least they are going into it with the understanding that maybe the relationships and the portrayal of the Quileute Tribe are damaging.
Honestly, I wish people would stop using the terms 'cancelling' and 'cancel culture'. They've become overused, they're often misnomers, they're used as dog whistles. I'm just tried of those terms at this point, they don't help propel the conversation.
I'm at the point that when "cancel culture" is introduced into conversations where I didn't use them, it puts me on the defensive. It's been one too many times of using "cancel culture" (in whatever weird, watered down, more like decisions and consequences than cancelling way people mean that) to derail conversations.
I will be the first to say that HP still holds a special place in my heart and I honestly think it’s a masterpiece. But JKR is still causing damage and shows no signs of ever changing. I’m glad I’m just a rando on the internet so me reading these books that I already own in the privacy of my own home isn’t promoting her. But if I was an influencer I still don’t think I’d discuss that online. I do still participate in my pre-existing fan communities (I’ve been a mega fan a long time lol) but I make a point to only associate with other fans who oppose JKR and support trans rights (some online HP creators donate part of their proceeds to trans activism which I think is a step in the right direction and kind of hilarious that they’re using JKR’s IP to help a cause she is bigoted against). It sucks to love something your whole life and then have the creator betray you by going against one of the things you thought you loved about her (ie, I thought she cared about human rights).
I don't think it matters if people eat those nuggets IF they are not using money, their platform, or their voice to uplift the LGBT community. If I eat at Popeyes instead of Chikfila, am I doing anything better for the world? I'm still giving money to a capitalistic organization either way. This does NOT mean I still eat the nuggets, btw. It just begs the question. Similarly, when it comes to boycotting authors...Okay, we boycott some books but let's also pour all our time and energy into these other authors who deserve it. I would love to see more positive solutions. Honestly, I think I know the names of every single "problematic" author than I do the dozens of marginalized authors who publish every year. I still do my own research but I don't hear their names enough.
Yes, and this is the round and round of those damn nuggets. (I've been wanting nuggets all day thanks to this video.) I've seen so many things saying they do use their money for evil and then some things that say actually they only used to use their money for evil and other things that say that actually employ a large LGBTQIA+ workforce and on and on and on. It isn't as simple as I present in the video, but because of the factors at play and because we continue to get new information. But! That's sort of the case for all of the consumer decisions we make.
During this video I kept thinking: du slår huvudet på spiken (swedish expression, direct translation: you bang the head on the nail), IE. I think you make very good points and that you're really getting to the roots of the discussion. I can't really say much more than I agreed with all you had to say.
You are so well spoken! I never really gave much thought to this topic, but I agree with you completely. Very informative video that I hope sparks discussion and reflection!
Partially is the time and place, partially the internet, but people feel this need to share everything all the time and that’s just not healthy. Do I have problematic tastes? P L E N T Y. Do I justify them or even admit to consuming these types of media? No to everyone, no. People, take your poison in the privacy of your own home.
I feel like there is some thought that this is disingenuous to keep some things private but like... you don't owe the internet anything and especially not everything. It's okay to enjoy some things quietly.
I love your discussion videos like this! This is a really important topic, and I think it can apply even to people who don’t have a platform, but are maybe the biggest reader/consumer of a certain media in their social circle. Often, I feel like that “I don’t care” response is actually indicative of the opposite feeling😂. Like a lot of those people really DO care what some people think, which is why they are signaling to certain people that they “don’t care” about others’ feelings or experiences. If you were drawing a Venn diagram of people who say they “don’t care” what people think, but also bought a bunch of Dr. Seuss books earlier this year because “censorship,” I think it would basically be a circle, lol
Yes, for sure! I had a friend reply on Twitter and mention that she doesn't have a platform, but her son has a lot of gender nonconforming friends, and she thinks about what it would feel like to them if they walked into her house and she had HP plastered everywhere. It definitely isn't only about platform, but in a lot of ways, we are building spaces we want friends to inhabit. And you are dead on. The people who "don't care" the most are the ones who will spend hours trying to convince me they don't care. I'm like "please, I know why I keep replying. I CARE A HECK TON. WHY ARE YOU HERE?" 😂
i think that i've definitely been more careful around not sharing books that i think are problematic, like i think with books that i own i want to make sure i read them and make my own opinion and sometimes i do let the research i do once hearing that a author is racist, homophobic, transphobic etc means i won't continue on with their books and have donate adichie's books, snicket's books and things like that. the point about having any kind of platform means you do have a responsibility to know what you're sharing is crucial.
The argument that people often make about their individual decisions not making a difference can really frustrate me sometimes. I've also heard people say it with respect to things like recycling or even voting and to me it implies this fatalistic attitude as if nothing ever changes. Things may not move at the speed we want them to, but if you look at history, they can change at least a little at a time. I get that it's a very human bias to only think about ourselves and our immediate surroundings and that can lead people to see themselves as not having any impact on anything beyond that, but it is a human bias and they are one of so so many people thinking the same exact thing. So when I make a decision to put a larger issue over my immediate gratification (at no major expense to myself, I might add. I haven't died from denying myself chik-fil-a's very delicious nuggets) I just try to hope that I am part of a larger group of people doing the same and fighting against that instinct to see ourselves as some unique but ineffectual/consequence-free snowflake and maybe someday that will add up to a larger difference being made. Did that make any sense? Probably not. Thanks for another great and thoughtful video!
I see the same thing every day about recycling. :/ It’s a bummer when people assume they can’t do anything so they don’t do anything instead of thinking, “maybe I should do this and then as a ripple effect me friends and family will and I can lead by example and then things can get better.” or at least, “I feel good about what I’m doing.” Same with voting. Just like you said. It’s just a defeated mindset.
It sounds like people want to have their cake and eat it too. At one point, privileged people used to be able to enjoy their problematic media without anyone saying a peep about it and now that people feel empowered to speak up about how certain media is offensive and hurtful to them, those who felt privileged enough to enjoy things without being affected by the harmful creators are enraged that they can't continue to do so without criticism. No one is cancelling anything by critically analyzing creators, it's in everyone's right to discuss things and/or not consume certain media they don't enjoy or find offensive. I personally have no trouble not reading books by authors who have done/do messed up things because once I know it I can't even enjoy their books. I know not everyone is like that so I understand some people still wanting to read those authors' books. But if you promote them, understand that some people will criticize you and possibly choose to no longer consume your content because they can't enjoy or don't want to consume or support the kind of environment/culture that you are creating/supporting. There are no actions without consequences.
I really appreciate your breakdown of how support works (monetary, promotion, etc.). I'm still figuring out where I land on a lot of things (nuance-wise) and I rather suspect that this decision-making process will be an ongoing element of my life :D Keeping certain things private (or offline) makes sense to me from an avoiding promotion perspective, but a part of me wonders if I'm being disingenuous when/if I do that (on bookstagram for myself specifically). Where do we draw the line of public vs. private when it comes to problematic content? Something I'm still internally debating :) And what you say about people collectively struggling to understand the negative impacts of media - it really speaks to we don't like to be told that our limited perspectives, privilege, and/or personal enjoyment can be a problem.
It is 100% an ongoing thing. And also we keep receiving new information. A year or more ago, I posted a video in which I make a comment about how HP has bad elements, but the story still kind of holds up to me. And then JKR just really showed us what she stands for and we've seen the implications of that trickle into politics and policy and... my mind is changed. Nothing has changed about HP, but that is not a statement I would make today. That's.... living lol. Our tolerances and measures change, our ability to carve out the art away from artist, etc. I do not think I'm being disingenuous at all! The internet is not owed all of me, and that goes for everything, even including the thing I came to the internet to talk about. I try to be my most genuine self here, but I also have to set boundaries and that means that the Internet doesn't get sort of unfiltered access to my thoughts, habits or decisions. I think this is especially true because my message is never "you are not allowed to read problematic work." That seems silly to me, to take that stance. My stance is that we should be mindful of how we spend time, money, and how we use our platform. And in that case, it makes sense that we would then choose to consume, but not necessarily report certain things. Does that make sense? It is definitely difficult to contend with how something formative or well loved can also be harmful. The knee-jerk is always to be defensive. I've definitely been there.
@@mynameismarines I love your perspective about not allowing the internet unfiltered access to your thoughts etc... definitely something I'm trying to work towards accepting in myself! (I do keep much of my life private but these thoughts especially re: reading still hold sway in my mind!)
I enjoy your thoughtful discussions and am glad that you care. And no one is trying to say no one is allowed to read anything. But there is a difference between reading something for your personal curiosity or entertainment or whatever and choosing not to talk about it online and deciding that you just don't care and talking about it to everyone who will listen. I also get frustrated and shut down when people say that they don't care. OK, fine. I can't make you care. End of discussion. If you want me to react and fight with you about caring, I won't.
Really great video. I especially liked that you mentioned that we may not have all the information in a situation. This is a worry I struggle with and why I'm not willing to burn somebody because their favourite book is by an author I find problematic. I see a lot of infighting in that regard where we all expect everyone else to have the information we do, when that's often not the case. I also have to raise a guilty hand because I love watching people trash problematic books for being crap. I'll sometimes even watch those videos when I've no interest in ever buying or reading the book.
Yes, something about this conversation has turned into a huge gotcha game. I think it comes from the defensiveness. You talked about something I loved critically and so now I'm going to watch you like a hawk and catch you slipping. It's unfortunate because that really isn't helping anyone. It can put a lot of pressure on people to feel like they have to know all the things always, and we just can't. We can't. I think that is certainly different than people who are saying "I know this is problematic but why can't I read it and promote it in peace?" lol You already know I LOVE a good takedown.
@@mynameismarines Thanks for the reply :) Yes I think defensiveness plays a large part in it, and if I'm honest, a large amount of negative interactions online. Sometimes it's as bad as people openly waiting for someone to slip up so they could 'cancel' them. Like, you already made your mind up... I'm just happy if we all try our best and promote lesser known/minority authors. Rant videos can be so therapeutic xD
in regards to what you said about feeling like it's a personal fault for shutting down when people say they don't care: i don't think it's a fault at all. as a marginalized person, especially for poc/bipoc, it's an unrealistic expectation that all of us to have the energy for constant debate as to why people SHOULD care. i can't speak for anyone but myself, but as a lgbt poc i *personally* do not have the energy, patience, or nature in my heart to engage in constant debate for the sake of education. it's not a flaw, it's a boundary and a self preservation tactic. your mental health and well-being comes before anything else. never feel like you have to expend that to change someone's mind, especially when you actively get nothing out of it by stress. wonderful and insightful video as always! ❤️
I don’t think it’s a fault either, for the same reasons you mentioned as well! I’ve learned the hard way when I get into “debates,” 99% of the time I was talking to someone that didn’t want their mind changed in the first place. And it made me more stressed on my part because I’d waste my time formulating a well-articulated reply to someone who’s real intent was to be a bigot, and replying to them fed their satisfaction that they were actually hurting me.
I think I agreed w a lot of what you said here! I approach “problematic” content on a case by case basis, on what I’m willing to accept and what I’m not. I don’t have much of a platform so I feel occasionally that the “buy second hand” works for me bc no one see’s me doing that….. If that makes sense. Have you seen the other Twitter-ism? “Dnf if you watch/enjoy x-Irredeemable Content”? I see it on anime twit a lot and it baffles me bc everyone puts different things in their own” irredeemable” content list. Irredeemable is such a bug and broad word!
I've not seen quite this, but I have seen things like unfollowing people who follow JKR. I think it's a way to kind of curate your Twitter experience, but also to kind of exert an itty bitty bit of power in a situation where individual consumers don't in fact have a lot of power. What I'm saying is that I understand the impulse to curate your followers/ing this way, but you are also right, that we get back down into this question of what exactly is problematic, irredeemable, etc. The best way I know how to deal with it is a little more case by case as well.
I don't support the word problematic for one. but I think it depends on where you would draw the line, for example, I will keep the book this person wrote that I like because I already own it but I will not be buying anymore of their work. [the term "problematic" can be slapped against a brick wall and never be scraped off though] Good vid.
I'm sick of that word. It's automatically problematic if an author chooses to use heavy topics in their story based on their real life. It's automatically problematic if characters are flawed and make mistakes just like in real life.
The word problematic is so widely used that it has no meaning anymore but at the same time I wish there was a better or different word to use, I can't think of many
I'm going to start this comment by saying that I hate the term, "problematic author" because it's too vague but, for the sake of my own laziness, I'm just going to use that term. I wish conversations about problematic authors were cut and dry, but they aren't. J.K. Rowling is the perfect example since so much merchandise was made from her world. I get why people don't want to buy things that explicitly related to HP, but some artists use popular series like that to build a following. I'm especially not going to villainize any marginalized person who still holds onto HP, and even tries to reclaim space for themselves in that world. I truly don't understand the weird policing of other people's bookshelves. If you're a booktuber and you have your shelves behind you in your videos, make sure any authors that have been deemed problematic are not in frame. No one should be twisting your arm to get rid of books. That money has already been spent. I get it if you, personally, feel uncomfortable with certain authors on your shelves. But no one should tell you to get rid of certain books. The other issue with problematic authors is that people are so damn nosy. Even negative reviews about a book will entice people to read just so they can understand the full context of what people are shitting on. I was talking with a friend about some author that did something stupid, I can't remember which author, and she said that people can just "check the book out from the library." I told her that wasn't necessarily a good idea because, for the library I work at, we look at which books are being circulated and we buy multiple copies of books based on these numbers. Sure buying 1 extra copy of a book is a smaller number than 20 people buying this same garbage book, but we are still putting money into an author's hands who, realistically, doesn't deserve it. We could also do a black market style library system, but people don't like piracy so... I would be super interested in understanding how sites like Scribd, or how subscription boxes, impact publishing. I understand that companies like Owlcrate, Illumicrate, and Fairyloot all have to make deals in advance to make sure they can get special editions of the new hotness. I just want to understand that dynamic better. I'm sure Scribd has to pay for licenses like libraries do, but they also have PDFS that, I'm assuming, any user can upload which...smells a little like piracy. I'm going to go, but those are my general thoughts when it comes to problematic authors. I hope this makes sense. My brain is struggling constantly.
Great video! 😊 I think this a very interesting topic and that it can be hard sometimes to do "the right thing". The only problematic book that I can think of that I've read and talked about on my channel is Nevernight by Jay Kristoff. And that was before I knew he was problematic. Then people talked about him being problematic, which then led to me not reading the sequel at that time even though I had planned to. The book is still on my shelf, though, and want to read it eventually. But I don't know yet, if I will talk about it on my channel. The thing is that I (as a gay white woman) will probably be able to identify sexism or homophobia in a story, but will struggle when it comes to things like racism if it's not really obvious. I also don't think it's my place to comment on those topics in detail, because I'm not the one experiencing them. (I don't want to say that I wouldn't mention a book being racist, if I knew about it.) In the end I think it's like you said. If you talk about certain books (or whatever) on your channel or elsewhere, you have to consider how the way you talk about it reflects on you as a person. And maybe gushing about something that has red flags all over it is not the reasonable thing to do.
We can always educate ourselves on things that are prejudice in ways that we can't relate to, but we can't possibly know everything that is problematic to another person and I think that's okay. We can call it when we see it and listen when others do, too! :)
Thank you! This has happened to me too. Interestingly, HP has been really easy for me to sort of yeet from my shelves and experience because I didn't read it growing up. I was, however, in the middle of reading the Cormoran Strike novels by JKR and was pretty invested in them. I was on the fence about reading the 5th book and was definitely not going to buy a copy. And then a free copy came my way and I was like well what now? lol. I did end up reading it, and while I made an update on Goodreads, I never talked about it here and I don't think I'll ever talk about that series again. We are all kind of feeling our way around here, trying to make the best decisions. I think being thoughtful about it in the first place goes a really long way. We all miss things! We are all going to miss things outside of our experience. I think there is also a bunch of shame associated with missing things, when really, we should normalize and promote receiving new information and course correcting accordingly. I read Eleanor and Park years ago and gave it like 3 or 3.5 stars. I thought it was cute! Since then, I've read a lot about the racism and fatphobia in the story, things I didn't catch, and so that means that I don't recommend or promote that book on my channel any more. Not that I was ever its #1 fan, but I think it's reasonable to not actively recommend it when there has been a significant amount of conversation about the harm it can cause. So, yeah. This isn't simple and easy, we all miss things, we all make mistakes, but I don't think those are reasons to not TRY to be mindful of how we spend our time, money, and platform.
Anyone who knows me knows I’m a huge Twilight fan LMAOOOO but I also acknowledge the major issues that this series has, not only with the relationships but with the indigenous people. Stephenie Meyer could have made everybody in this series white and I would have been fine 😂 but since it is harmful to a certain demographic of people. This series was a huge part of my teen years, gave me my best friend since high school, and other close online friendships. I think as long as you recognize the issues within your fave book or series and actively work to keep doing that, then that’s all you can do. Burning copies, DVDs, buying secondhand, is useless because to still money leaving your pocket.
I totally understand this. And I appreciate anyone who can acknowledge the problematic things they like. Two things remain: 1- this is a privileged position to take as ultimately it doesn’t seem like the media harms you. And 2- if you have public platforms and use them to continue positively promoting Twilight, well then, your audience will see that. It’s ultimately all our own choices to make about what we prioritize, but that extends a little bit beyond ourselves when we do that publicly!
@@mynameismarines Of course! It is a place of privilege to say that I can enjoy a piece of content and still recognize its issues because I'm not of the community being harmed. I don't have a youtube channel, but I do have a book blog where I sometimes talked about Twilight before in the past, but since my rebrand, I haven't. But it's still a series I love, and there's privilege in still having that. And yes, it's all about prioritizing what's more important: your problematic fave or reality.
Awesome video as usual! Everything is political, and everyone has to make a choice as to what their limits are when it comes to consuming/promoting things, even if that choice is not caring at all, and it irks me when people don't seem to realise that. Completely agree with your points, and the original tweet.
Not even the main point of this video but I related HARD when you said you hate trying to convince people to care!! 😅 it's just exhausting and feels like it never works and makes it feel like you're just pouring all your empathy into a bottomless pit of "nope still don't care and you can't make me". Like okay, fine! I mean it's not fine, but I can't make you do something about it and it's really not fun or useful to try? okay YES - people understand this concept perfectly in other aspects, but when it comes to engaging critically with content suddenly it's like 'hey they're just stories' - uh, yeah, stories that we know matter? that's literally why we're here on this platform? -In my head it's kind of like how some people get mad about content warnings even EXISTING, or people needing/wanting to use them - we ALL plan our choices and activities to some extent, based on what we can deal with that day. How many times have we delayed a difficult project because we're exhausted, or an important but draining conversation when we're emotionally wrung out? but suddenly when it comes to media, we need to suck it up and force ourselves to experience it no matter what the subject matter is or what else is going on with us because...Art?? the inconsistency is infuriating Wonderful discussion!! yes, money is not the only way we support content or ideas. And yes, a platform absolutely affects the decision process for me. Like if we're talking about continuing to read things after we find out something problematic about the author, there is a world of difference between me as an individual consumer rereading a thing I already spent money on in the privacy of my own home, vs. me publicly discussing and promoting it - even if that promotion is just "I reread this because I like it", that is still a kind of implicit promotion My friend Taylor from PageScreenTaylor was talking about this after one of our Passed-It Classics liveshows and she brought up a great point - she talked about how being a reader and enjoy-er of classics kind of forces you to come up with these critical tools (at least, if you're doing it right) much sooner because hello, classics! lol. And I honestly do think being exposed early to works that we expect to need that kind of nuanced discussion can be really beneficial because it gets us used to bringing that nuance to the media we consume. ANYWAY, wonderful video as always, sorry for my rambly essay of a comment, you're just so thoughtful and always make me want to talk even more than usual! 😂
Recently returned Ari and Dante (unchecked transphobia) before even reading it. Im honestly upset that the book community has come to a point where no one feels like just bc they didn't care about something harmful or problematic that they shouldn't inform other people about what's in the book. When people say Idc I usually feel like its from a place of privilege bc the topic hasn't emotionally or mentally exhausted them. I love this conversation and hopefully hope to see more of it.
I believe you’re right. Supporting an author’s works is supporting an author, monetarily or not. We should let problematic authors go and popularize better works when other authors have done awful things. Once we find out an author is racist, transphobic, anything else, it isn’t that hard to let things go at least on a public basis (and yes, this is coming from a neurodivergent person with hyperfixations, before anyone might reply to me using that as an excuse). Do you have to throw away a book? It’s up to you. I personally chose to burn my Marion Zimmer Bradley books when I found out what she did to her children, and I never owned books from other problematic authors, but I would do the same instead of donate where someone else could idolize an awful person. As far as JKR goes, many of her ideals are stolen from better works. I would never buy another book from her.
I'm a consumer, not a media creator, so the issue of promoting isn't as critical. I don't tweet "anti" reviews, but I will give a poor rating on goodreads if I am feeling moved to do so, and I might note issues in a review I write. (I dont write reviews for all books I read). Many books and shows I just avoid, like Game of Thrones. I can see why it's popular, but it's just too rapey and mean spirited for me to want to be in that fictional world by choice. No matter how hot Jason Momoa makes Khal Drogo, I don't want to watch. Same for the series Oz; I was given that entire DVD set, and I am torn. I don't want to give to anyone else because who would I want to pass that on to? I don't want to sell it, or donate it. I guess I could throw it out, but it was a gift. So it's just in a box I haven't unpacked since my last move. Many books and shows I just avoid, like Game of Thrones. I can see why it's popular, but it's just too rapey and mean spirited for me to want to be in that fictional world by choice. No matter how hot Jason Momoa makes Khal Drogo, I don't want to watch. Same for the series Oz; I was given that entire DVD set, and I am torn. I don't want to give to anyone else because who would I want to pass that on to? I don't want to sell it, or donate it I guess I could throw it out, but it was a gift. So it's just in a box I haven't unpacked since my last move. I'm a consumer, not a media creator, so the issue of promoting isn't as critical.
The fact that I accompanied your tweet exchange with the person who Just Didn't Care as it was happening and was cracking up when you rehashed it... thank you so much for this lol
I agree that someone supports books and movies and every piece of media in multiple ways and not just monetarily. Talking about it, sharing photos of it, etc. are still a form of support. And we all read books that are 'problematic', but that's not the issue, esp. not when it comes to JKR. I honestly think that people who conflate reading books that are not morally correct or 'problematic' to some degree, whatever that means now, are purposefully misleading the conversation.There's a difference between reading books that are not overtly harmful but still bad/'problematic', and giving a platform to books that are by a violent TERF who's using the social currency she earns (by even mentions and discussions of her and her books) to directly impact legislation that's going to harm trans people within and outside of her country. People seem to ignore or forget just _how_ influential JKR is. Whether or not you like her books or her as a person, she has an immense amount of influence. She gets paid for so many things; ads, merch, even mentions of her indirectly affect her bank account which she uses to affect legislation. She has an unfathomable amount of social currency, which often goes unchecked because there's very few checks and balances to using the Internet and weaponizing your platform. And she's an author. She knows how to disguise hate speech as free speech. And it's made easy because Free speech has been manipulated to make people believe that harmful speech serves a purpose greater than causing _harm_.
This video is everything I have been trying to be as a reviewer as someone who posts about books on TikTok/Instagram etc. My Best Friend is of the mindset of she reads for herself and she doesn't care whether an author is problematic or not to which I've told she can do what she wants but to keep in mind that there are certain authors she should not bring up in front of me because I will be critical and I will be honest as to why I continue to not support these authors. I found that when it's been known for a while an author is harmful to a specific community and that community has spoken out on numerous occasions. To then delete those comments, pretend the harm doesn't exist and promoting those books anyway then it's a red flag for me not to follow them. People can absolutely choose to promote and read what they want that is their choice to do so, as is my choice to not follow or support accounts who promote authors actively causing harm.
Glad to hear you're feeling better Mari 😊 Hope you'll continue to have time for self care girl ✨ sending you positive vibes and love to both you and your nails - I am loving that colour!! Ultimately, we all have the right to decide who, and how, we support. If (like that person on twitter) you're okay with promoting things that could hurt others with your content because you don't care, then you do you 🤷🏻♀️ We then also have the right to stay away from said content. Yes, we should be mindful of the content we consume, but it's just as important to be mindful of what we put out there, virtually or physically, within your social circle/community.
Dang girl, keep us woke, we can't sleep more than we should! This is why I come back to your channel each time. I don't go on to on Twitter or tic tok but I appreciate you taking time on alll avenues.
My hot take is that people have a warped concept of morality? It seems like people can’t accept the concept of all humans doing both bad and good things. They will say that “all people are flawed” but they are also very defensive if their flaws are pointed out. There is moral nuance to everything, and you do have to decide what you are going to care about and what corners you have to cut, because society sucks etc etc. But promoting something is an active decision, you are spending time on it. Idk. JKR controversy has really annoyed me as a trans person, it hurts especially coming from cis queer people. I’m not demanding you burn all your books but talking about liking HP as a core aspect of your personality and then being like “but they were written by professor Mcgonigal tee hee” Like you either care or you don’t lol but you can’t have it both ways. Similarly to your point about twilight. Idk, that is my personal opinion, I don’t consider an objective moral judgment of everyone in the world, there is so much nuance. People want to turn morality into rules and it simply is not that way. This is a great video, thank you for discussing this and also for making me think! I love your nails as well ❤
I have no bookish platform with any audience, however I am the go-to person in my friend group and with family when it comes to book recommendations, so even on that small scale I am aware of the risk of promoting material that may be harmful, if not to the reader, than to the people they come into contact with. I wouldn't want to recommend a book with, say, really harmful racial stereotypes to a family member who is less likely to pick up on them because they're not as critical a reader and aren't involved in bookish discussions online, and have that family member subconsciously take on those beliefs. But if I really loved a book that maybe had some issues, I will always point them out to the person I'm recommending to. When it comes to defining my own limits when it comes to problematic content and figuring out which books I should buy and which books I can skip, I try to go with a positive-based approach - I know I have limited time and money, so do I want to spend that on a book with many problematic elements/a book by a problematic author, or should I pick up a book by an author that I know isn't problematic (problematic, to me, meaning perpetuating harmful thought/harming others without any genuine remorse, without taking responsibility for the harm they've caused, and without taking action to combat the harm they've caused) and has books that I am just as interested in? I'm not losing anything in this scenario - I am simply swapping one book for another. And because publishing still mostly promotes an overwhelming amount of white/straight/cis/able-bodied-focused stories, I know if I seek out works by diverse authors (works that I'm really interested in, just wouldn't have known about if I hadn't actually sought them out) I'm putting money in the pockets of people who get less opportunities in publishing and really need readers to spend the cash and promote their work.
To your last point regarding people understanding the positive impact of stories, I think there's a big "for me but not for thee" kind of attitude when people bring up hurtful elements. I've encountered it a lot in fandom: people gong on and on about just letting people enjoy things when that only really applies to a small subset of people. I remember during the shitshow when a bunch of ya authors were gushing about an incest couple some people were genuinely arguing with me that "fiction doesn't affect reality" and "good rep is important" are not exclusive statements??? Theres just a whole air of people not really wanting to consider that something they enjoy is, perhaps, extremely harmful and don't want to listen to impacted communities.
I have mentioned JKR on my blog maybe once or twice and I always start it with something about how I don't support her. I feel guilty even mentioning people like her.
Same, but I don't automatically throw every one under the bus who still likes the HP series. People on social media are going around like, "How dare you have a Hogwarts house in your bio."
@@thewolfandherbooks I do think there is a clear difference between loving HP and supporting the author. I do still love HP and it was a HUGE part of my life from a young age. However, I just don't talk about it online anymore.
personally for me, it's really easy for me to let go of problematic authors. i was a diehard harry potter fan and i grew up with the series! i was 11 like the characters when it was released and loved the movies, fandom, everything. it was surprisingly easy for me to let go because all the criticisms about her racism, antisemitism, fatphobia, homophobia, and transphobia are all true. i think it was also easy for me because it was such a white fandom, white series, and just very white-i never truly felt welcome anyway. had it been a bipoc author today who i absolutely love and follow, i don't know if it'd be as easy for me to do that. i think i'd be a lot more lenient and give the author room to grow because bipoc creatives are so rarely afforded that-we're often judged a lot more harshly than our white peers. now if it's something like chimamanda ngozi adichie, who is found consistently to be transphobic and targets trans people like akwaeke emezi, ezpz byebye.
"On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good and not quite all the time" - George Orwell. IDK Mari, I think some people are just looking for permission to be unchallenged or irresponsible, even when no one is denying them that permission in the first place. They just want to be able to have a one-sided conversation. People seem to forget that no one knows what you read ✨unless you tell them ✨. Side note, I guess I have to get TikTok now, if that’s where your content has gone!
It always sort of boggles my mind when I see people purposefully reading books by authors they know are being problematic. I just cannot separate the work from the artist… and I’m not sure I’d want to anyway. I enjoy researching these people but I don’t go looking obsessively in their past hoping to find problems. And yet if some serious issues are brought to my attention for sure I’ll question whether I feel comfortable continuing supporting them or not. How you can simply say “I don’t care” is just beyond me really.
When I hear people say this stuff. What comes to mind other a nice side...and squant eyes...is like? What if one day you began care for say a transgender person? Right? So then for most of your life? You've supported Johanne? Then this friend, lover, what have you? Beloved family member? Dad? Mom? Has to reckon with that you made Johannes life easier and able to harm trans peoples? Like that seem's a aweful a lot convince? just reek's of...it's not my problem until...It is? You know? Like someone else reality isn't real until I say it is? And that my feeling's of utter apathy are more important then...(legitimentally) peoples lives? Hmm? This can naturally apply to anything. Ounce heard some guy say he didn't understand why people learned history.
But it's just so funny to me. I can't. If you even walk close to Harry Potter books, you're the enemy of the state. But when people promote the Sarah J.Mass books about abuse and sexism and sexual exploitation that's fine! So I walk close to Harry Potter book, I am the enemy, I say SJM books are awful, I am also the enemy :D I guess Neil Gaiman it is :D
As a rule, I am able to separate the book (movie/ painting/ song etc) from the author. Otherwise we would not read or listen to anything or burn most paintings in this world. Genius is sometimes (most times?) troubled. Am I against drug use? Certainly, but banning all books/ songs etc written by drug users would mean banning most of the world's culture. A lot of amazing books were written under the influence of some drug or another. And then, there's the word "problematic". What does it mean, exactly? What is problematic to me may not be problematic to someone else, and vice versa. For instance, I don't see Rowling's statements as problematic and I think they have been taken out of context and inflamed because some topics are fashionable and all the rage at the moment. Sorry not sorry. I hate where the world is heading, cancel culture is a deadly virus. The catholic church used cancel culture and look where it lead us - we lost precious works of art that are impossible to recover because they were "problematic" in a certain era. Hit ler did the same, with banning and burning books. I agree that talking about "problematic" issues should be done, but I don't agree with cancelling a whole person for things they might have said or did at a certain point in their life. We rehabilitate criminals, but we kill the reputation of perfectly great authors just because of this trend. People who read books should be above such things, but apparently some are still wearing horse glasses despite calling themselves "readers". Reading should open the mind, not close it.
Conflating drug use with hate speech is ridiculous. And conflating individuals choosing not to read a book with actual book burning is also ridiculous. Hitler burned books in order to erase undesirable minority groups (poc, disabled people, gay and trans people, communists, anarchists, etc), which is fundamentally different from not wanting to read a book by someone who is transphobic or racist. If you're so big on readers being logical, you should be able to recognize a logical false equivalency.
Also: Rowling is a transphobic garbage can and bad writer, so the fact you're going to bat for her makes me think you don't have good taste in literature and just don't like trans people
@@maia_gaia Rowling was merely an example, I mentioned her because this video specifically pointed her out. I do enjoy HP, I don't think she's a genius. Those are two separate things. One can enjoy fun literature that is not exactly a masterpiece, can they not? Or are we supposed to only read Shakespeare? But ok, since you're an elitist who only reads "good literature", is Garcia Marquez trash because he was a communist? Nevermind, don't answer, you are exactly what I was talking about. Books are supposed to open minds, not close them. Oh and as I said in my comment, I am able to differentiate between an author as a private person and their work. My views on transgenderism or any other issue are not the views of each particular author that I read. That would mean I would have to change views every single day. But apparently you are unable to understand a written text.
@@maia_gaia I was not talking about choosing not to read a book. I could care less what people choose to read or not. Everyone has their own tastes and interests. What I was talking about - and maybe you would have understood had you actually read my comment with a clear head and not prejudice - is that I will never agree to CANCEL CULTURE. That is simply different from choosing not to read a book for whatever reason.
@@nonabgo You kind of do, otherwise you wouldn't have called out a whole sect for something that happened in the past. Read what you want, but don't try to pretend like you aren't selective about what you choose to give your attention. See straw man fallacy.
I like the idea that it’s helpful to highlight why something is not ok rather than simply assuming someone should know. My ignorance is not a choice, my understanding of the wider world is limited by the resources available. This is especially true with regards to issues faced by those in the USA. The media and public culture shapes my understanding because that is all that is available to me. So the more people who help shape the media to reflect reality the better. One more voice may be all it takes to make the truth louder than the noise.
I love when you giggle about Twitter. You’re so good-natured about the absurdity of arguing, discussing, disagreeing on the internet. 😅 thank you for the discussion and the great video.
Thank you so much for this video, and for bringing such nuance to this topic! I like that you acknowledge that there's a spectrum of "problematic" in media, and that some cases aren't so cut and dry like JKR. For me, I've spent the past few months grappling with my consumption of Chinese media (incl. novels and C dramas) and promoting it on my channel.
On the one hand, as a Hongkonger-American, I went through a lot of collective trauma because of what the Chinese government is doing to my ancestral homeland, and don't want to enrich their economy and the companies in it. In addition, a lot of actors in these shows have shown support for "Xinjiang Cotton," making them (by their will or not) complicit in enabling Uighur mass internment and genocide. On the other hand, I also really think some of this media, especially the more subtley subversive works, has some really valuable things to say, and I would like to bring my audience's attention to the ideas of their creators and support those people. I also think it's really important to understand where Chinese people's heads are at in a time like this, and not to see them as one collective "enemy." I guess right now, my rationale is to talk about C dramas and such, while continuing to call out the problematic issues around them - that way, maybe my audience will be introduced to interesting new media and also informed about less-discussed issues at the same time? My stance could evolve, but this is where I stand right now.
I hate how "cancel culture" has morphed from "running someone off the platform" into "voicing hypothetical criticism about a hypothetical situation." Choosing not to read a book from a certain author is NOT "cancelling." Next, I'll be told I'm cancelling James S A Corey because I'm not interested in finishing The Expanse series because it didn't vibe with me lol
Yes, I agree. "Cancel culture" is whipped out now as a counter argument to every bit of trying to talk about making decisions about how we read. In that Twitter thread, someone was basically questioning if we should be able to make decisions about what to read based on what we know about the book and the author. I was like ......literally yes???? If I can't make those decisions for myself based on that and other information, WHO IS GOING TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR ME?
You don't owe any single book, or media, or piece of art your audience. And using outside context to decide what media to consume is not cancel culture.
It’s one thing to inform someone about an Authors views, opinions and actions. It’s another thing entirely to shame and harass someone for buying certain media.
"Twighlight is racist, buy second hand!" 🥴 Your points are perfectly clear. Twitter is the place where nuance and critical thinking go to die.
Dunno if you watch Ashley at Bookish Realm but as a youth librarian she chose to reread the Twighlight series and do critical analysis of the first one and live video discussions for the others. The way I see it she is not helping to promote the series. She is providing a different perspective for people who may have not considered the harmful elements of the book.
Thank you for another engaging video!
I watch Ashley too I really like her!! 🥰
I do watch Ashley, but I haven't seen that analysis! After years of doing my own project through the Twilight Saga, I tend to not really consume more analysis lol. I've seen enough.
I don’t know who Ashley is, but that is still unfortunately promoting the series to me. By now, I think we all know how harmful the books are. And new readers wouldn’t exist if everyone didn’t continue posting about it and giving it more airtime in 2021
@@forbiddencave She is a youth librarian and she said the books are in very high circulation among teens. Most teens are not on BookTube and most readers are not on BookTube, we are a small community compared to the number of readers around the world . Many people actually don't know how harmful Twilight is and plenty of adults who loved the series ran out to buy Midnight Sun.
People can read what they want, of course, but of some stumble upon her channel and watch the videos and still choose to read the books at least they are going into it with the understanding that maybe the relationships and the portrayal of the Quileute Tribe are damaging.
Honestly, I wish people would stop using the terms 'cancelling' and 'cancel culture'. They've become overused, they're often misnomers, they're used as dog whistles. I'm just tried of those terms at this point, they don't help propel the conversation.
I'm at the point that when "cancel culture" is introduced into conversations where I didn't use them, it puts me on the defensive. It's been one too many times of using "cancel culture" (in whatever weird, watered down, more like decisions and consequences than cancelling way people mean that) to derail conversations.
I will be the first to say that HP still holds a special place in my heart and I honestly think it’s a masterpiece. But JKR is still causing damage and shows no signs of ever changing. I’m glad I’m just a rando on the internet so me reading these books that I already own in the privacy of my own home isn’t promoting her. But if I was an influencer I still don’t think I’d discuss that online. I do still participate in my pre-existing fan communities (I’ve been a mega fan a long time lol) but I make a point to only associate with other fans who oppose JKR and support trans rights (some online HP creators donate part of their proceeds to trans activism which I think is a step in the right direction and kind of hilarious that they’re using JKR’s IP to help a cause she is bigoted against). It sucks to love something your whole life and then have the creator betray you by going against one of the things you thought you loved about her (ie, I thought she cared about human rights).
I don't think it matters if people eat those nuggets IF they are not using money, their platform, or their voice to uplift the LGBT community. If I eat at Popeyes instead of Chikfila, am I doing anything better for the world? I'm still giving money to a capitalistic organization either way. This does NOT mean I still eat the nuggets, btw. It just begs the question.
Similarly, when it comes to boycotting authors...Okay, we boycott some books but let's also pour all our time and energy into these other authors who deserve it. I would love to see more positive solutions. Honestly, I think I know the names of every single "problematic" author than I do the dozens of marginalized authors who publish every year. I still do my own research but I don't hear their names enough.
Yes, and this is the round and round of those damn nuggets. (I've been wanting nuggets all day thanks to this video.) I've seen so many things saying they do use their money for evil and then some things that say actually they only used to use their money for evil and other things that say that actually employ a large LGBTQIA+ workforce and on and on and on. It isn't as simple as I present in the video, but because of the factors at play and because we continue to get new information. But! That's sort of the case for all of the consumer decisions we make.
You are an amazing speaker. So incredibly eloquent and cohesive
During this video I kept thinking: du slår huvudet på spiken (swedish expression, direct translation: you bang the head on the nail), IE. I think you make very good points and that you're really getting to the roots of the discussion. I can't really say much more than I agreed with all you had to say.
You are so well spoken! I never really gave much thought to this topic, but I agree with you completely. Very informative video that I hope sparks discussion and reflection!
Thanks for watching!
Partially is the time and place, partially the internet, but people feel this need to share everything all the time and that’s just not healthy.
Do I have problematic tastes? P L E N T Y. Do I justify them or even admit to consuming these types of media? No to everyone, no.
People, take your poison in the privacy of your own home.
I feel like there is some thought that this is disingenuous to keep some things private but like... you don't owe the internet anything and especially not everything. It's okay to enjoy some things quietly.
"I don't care about marginalized communities!!" 🤦♀️ at least some ppl are living their truth... even if they're ugly truths lol
When that person replied "yes, correct, I don't care" or whatever I was a little impressed, not gonna lie. Gotta be at that kind of self-awareness.
I love your discussion videos like this! This is a really important topic, and I think it can apply even to people who don’t have a platform, but are maybe the biggest reader/consumer of a certain media in their social circle. Often, I feel like that “I don’t care” response is actually indicative of the opposite feeling😂. Like a lot of those people really DO care what some people think, which is why they are signaling to certain people that they “don’t care” about others’ feelings or experiences. If you were drawing a Venn diagram of people who say they “don’t care” what people think, but also bought a bunch of Dr. Seuss books earlier this year because “censorship,” I think it would basically be a circle, lol
Yes, for sure! I had a friend reply on Twitter and mention that she doesn't have a platform, but her son has a lot of gender nonconforming friends, and she thinks about what it would feel like to them if they walked into her house and she had HP plastered everywhere. It definitely isn't only about platform, but in a lot of ways, we are building spaces we want friends to inhabit.
And you are dead on. The people who "don't care" the most are the ones who will spend hours trying to convince me they don't care. I'm like "please, I know why I keep replying. I CARE A HECK TON. WHY ARE YOU HERE?" 😂
@Lorraine Rain I also have a friend who is fascinated by conspiracy theories, so I'm going to send this to her.
i think that i've definitely been more careful around not sharing books that i think are problematic, like i think with books that i own i want to make sure i read them and make my own opinion and sometimes i do let the research i do once hearing that a author is racist, homophobic, transphobic etc means i won't continue on with their books and have donate adichie's books, snicket's books and things like that. the point about having any kind of platform means you do have a responsibility to know what you're sharing is crucial.
The argument that people often make about their individual decisions not making a difference can really frustrate me sometimes. I've also heard people say it with respect to things like recycling or even voting and to me it implies this fatalistic attitude as if nothing ever changes. Things may not move at the speed we want them to, but if you look at history, they can change at least a little at a time. I get that it's a very human bias to only think about ourselves and our immediate surroundings and that can lead people to see themselves as not having any impact on anything beyond that, but it is a human bias and they are one of so so many people thinking the same exact thing. So when I make a decision to put a larger issue over my immediate gratification (at no major expense to myself, I might add. I haven't died from denying myself chik-fil-a's very delicious nuggets) I just try to hope that I am part of a larger group of people doing the same and fighting against that instinct to see ourselves as some unique but ineffectual/consequence-free snowflake and maybe someday that will add up to a larger difference being made. Did that make any sense? Probably not. Thanks for another great and thoughtful video!
I see the same thing every day about recycling. :/ It’s a bummer when people assume they can’t do anything so they don’t do anything instead of thinking, “maybe I should do this and then as a ripple effect me friends and family will and I can lead by example and then things can get better.” or at least, “I feel good about what I’m doing.” Same with voting. Just like you said. It’s just a defeated mindset.
It sounds like people want to have their cake and eat it too. At one point, privileged people used to be able to enjoy their problematic media without anyone saying a peep about it and now that people feel empowered to speak up about how certain media is offensive and hurtful to them, those who felt privileged enough to enjoy things without being affected by the harmful creators are enraged that they can't continue to do so without criticism. No one is cancelling anything by critically analyzing creators, it's in everyone's right to discuss things and/or not consume certain media they don't enjoy or find offensive. I personally have no trouble not reading books by authors who have done/do messed up things because once I know it I can't even enjoy their books. I know not everyone is like that so I understand some people still wanting to read those authors' books. But if you promote them, understand that some people will criticize you and possibly choose to no longer consume your content because they can't enjoy or don't want to consume or support the kind of environment/culture that you are creating/supporting. There are no actions without consequences.
Well said!
THIS!
I really appreciate your breakdown of how support works (monetary, promotion, etc.).
I'm still figuring out where I land on a lot of things (nuance-wise) and I rather suspect that this decision-making process will be an ongoing element of my life :D
Keeping certain things private (or offline) makes sense to me from an avoiding promotion perspective, but a part of me wonders if I'm being disingenuous when/if I do that (on bookstagram for myself specifically). Where do we draw the line of public vs. private when it comes to problematic content? Something I'm still internally debating :)
And what you say about people collectively struggling to understand the negative impacts of media - it really speaks to we don't like to be told that our limited perspectives, privilege, and/or personal enjoyment can be a problem.
It is 100% an ongoing thing. And also we keep receiving new information. A year or more ago, I posted a video in which I make a comment about how HP has bad elements, but the story still kind of holds up to me. And then JKR just really showed us what she stands for and we've seen the implications of that trickle into politics and policy and... my mind is changed. Nothing has changed about HP, but that is not a statement I would make today. That's.... living lol. Our tolerances and measures change, our ability to carve out the art away from artist, etc.
I do not think I'm being disingenuous at all! The internet is not owed all of me, and that goes for everything, even including the thing I came to the internet to talk about. I try to be my most genuine self here, but I also have to set boundaries and that means that the Internet doesn't get sort of unfiltered access to my thoughts, habits or decisions. I think this is especially true because my message is never "you are not allowed to read problematic work." That seems silly to me, to take that stance. My stance is that we should be mindful of how we spend time, money, and how we use our platform. And in that case, it makes sense that we would then choose to consume, but not necessarily report certain things. Does that make sense?
It is definitely difficult to contend with how something formative or well loved can also be harmful. The knee-jerk is always to be defensive. I've definitely been there.
@@mynameismarines I love your perspective about not allowing the internet unfiltered access to your thoughts etc... definitely something I'm trying to work towards accepting in myself! (I do keep much of my life private but these thoughts especially re: reading still hold sway in my mind!)
I enjoy your thoughtful discussions and am glad that you care. And no one is trying to say no one is allowed to read anything. But there is a difference between reading something for your personal curiosity or entertainment or whatever and choosing not to talk about it online and deciding that you just don't care and talking about it to everyone who will listen. I also get frustrated and shut down when people say that they don't care. OK, fine. I can't make you care. End of discussion. If you want me to react and fight with you about caring, I won't.
Really great video. I especially liked that you mentioned that we may not have all the information in a situation. This is a worry I struggle with and why I'm not willing to burn somebody because their favourite book is by an author I find problematic. I see a lot of infighting in that regard where we all expect everyone else to have the information we do, when that's often not the case.
I also have to raise a guilty hand because I love watching people trash problematic books for being crap. I'll sometimes even watch those videos when I've no interest in ever buying or reading the book.
Yes, something about this conversation has turned into a huge gotcha game. I think it comes from the defensiveness. You talked about something I loved critically and so now I'm going to watch you like a hawk and catch you slipping. It's unfortunate because that really isn't helping anyone. It can put a lot of pressure on people to feel like they have to know all the things always, and we just can't. We can't.
I think that is certainly different than people who are saying "I know this is problematic but why can't I read it and promote it in peace?" lol
You already know I LOVE a good takedown.
@@mynameismarines Thanks for the reply :) Yes I think defensiveness plays a large part in it, and if I'm honest, a large amount of negative interactions online. Sometimes it's as bad as people openly waiting for someone to slip up so they could 'cancel' them. Like, you already made your mind up...
I'm just happy if we all try our best and promote lesser known/minority authors.
Rant videos can be so therapeutic xD
in regards to what you said about feeling like it's a personal fault for shutting down when people say they don't care: i don't think it's a fault at all. as a marginalized person, especially for poc/bipoc, it's an unrealistic expectation that all of us to have the energy for constant debate as to why people SHOULD care. i can't speak for anyone but myself, but as a lgbt poc i *personally* do not have the energy, patience, or nature in my heart to engage in constant debate for the sake of education. it's not a flaw, it's a boundary and a self preservation tactic. your mental health and well-being comes before anything else. never feel like you have to expend that to change someone's mind, especially when you actively get nothing out of it by stress.
wonderful and insightful video as always! ❤️
I don’t think it’s a fault either, for the same reasons you mentioned as well! I’ve learned the hard way when I get into “debates,” 99% of the time I was talking to someone that didn’t want their mind changed in the first place. And it made me more stressed on my part because I’d waste my time formulating a well-articulated reply to someone who’s real intent was to be a bigot, and replying to them fed their satisfaction that they were actually hurting me.
When I hear about the problematic authors. I may read some of them to say that I've read them, but I'm probably going to avoid the rest of them.
I think I agreed w a lot of what you said here! I approach “problematic” content on a case by case basis, on what I’m willing to accept and what I’m not. I don’t have much of a platform so I feel occasionally that the “buy second hand” works for me bc no one see’s me doing that….. If that makes sense.
Have you seen the other Twitter-ism? “Dnf if you watch/enjoy x-Irredeemable Content”? I see it on anime twit a lot and it baffles me bc everyone puts different things in their own” irredeemable” content list. Irredeemable is such a bug and broad word!
I've not seen quite this, but I have seen things like unfollowing people who follow JKR. I think it's a way to kind of curate your Twitter experience, but also to kind of exert an itty bitty bit of power in a situation where individual consumers don't in fact have a lot of power. What I'm saying is that I understand the impulse to curate your followers/ing this way, but you are also right, that we get back down into this question of what exactly is problematic, irredeemable, etc. The best way I know how to deal with it is a little more case by case as well.
u literally put into words all of my thoughts
I don't support the word problematic for one.
but I think it depends on where you would draw the line, for example, I will keep the book this person wrote that I like because I already own it but I will not be buying anymore of their work.
[the term "problematic" can be slapped against a brick wall and never be scraped off though]
Good vid.
I'm sick of that word. It's automatically problematic if an author chooses to use heavy topics in their story based on their real life.
It's automatically problematic if characters are flawed and make mistakes just like in real life.
The word problematic is so widely used that it has no meaning anymore but at the same time I wish there was a better or different word to use, I can't think of many
Particularly excellent outtakes/end stuff this video 🥰
I'm going to start this comment by saying that I hate the term, "problematic author" because it's too vague but, for the sake of my own laziness, I'm just going to use that term. I wish conversations about problematic authors were cut and dry, but they aren't. J.K. Rowling is the perfect example since so much merchandise was made from her world. I get why people don't want to buy things that explicitly related to HP, but some artists use popular series like that to build a following. I'm especially not going to villainize any marginalized person who still holds onto HP, and even tries to reclaim space for themselves in that world. I truly don't understand the weird policing of other people's bookshelves. If you're a booktuber and you have your shelves behind you in your videos, make sure any authors that have been deemed problematic are not in frame. No one should be twisting your arm to get rid of books. That money has already been spent. I get it if you, personally, feel uncomfortable with certain authors on your shelves. But no one should tell you to get rid of certain books.
The other issue with problematic authors is that people are so damn nosy. Even negative reviews about a book will entice people to read just so they can understand the full context of what people are shitting on. I was talking with a friend about some author that did something stupid, I can't remember which author, and she said that people can just "check the book out from the library." I told her that wasn't necessarily a good idea because, for the library I work at, we look at which books are being circulated and we buy multiple copies of books based on these numbers. Sure buying 1 extra copy of a book is a smaller number than 20 people buying this same garbage book, but we are still putting money into an author's hands who, realistically, doesn't deserve it. We could also do a black market style library system, but people don't like piracy so...
I would be super interested in understanding how sites like Scribd, or how subscription boxes, impact publishing. I understand that companies like Owlcrate, Illumicrate, and Fairyloot all have to make deals in advance to make sure they can get special editions of the new hotness. I just want to understand that dynamic better. I'm sure Scribd has to pay for licenses like libraries do, but they also have PDFS that, I'm assuming, any user can upload which...smells a little like piracy.
I'm going to go, but those are my general thoughts when it comes to problematic authors. I hope this makes sense. My brain is struggling constantly.
Great video! 😊
I think this a very interesting topic and that it can be hard sometimes to do "the right thing".
The only problematic book that I can think of that I've read and talked about on my channel is Nevernight by Jay Kristoff. And that was before I knew he was problematic. Then people talked about him being problematic, which then led to me not reading the sequel at that time even though I had planned to. The book is still on my shelf, though, and want to read it eventually. But I don't know yet, if I will talk about it on my channel.
The thing is that I (as a gay white woman) will probably be able to identify sexism or homophobia in a story, but will struggle when it comes to things like racism if it's not really obvious. I also don't think it's my place to comment on those topics in detail, because I'm not the one experiencing them. (I don't want to say that I wouldn't mention a book being racist, if I knew about it.)
In the end I think it's like you said. If you talk about certain books (or whatever) on your channel or elsewhere, you have to consider how the way you talk about it reflects on you as a person. And maybe gushing about something that has red flags all over it is not the reasonable thing to do.
We can always educate ourselves on things that are prejudice in ways that we can't relate to, but we can't possibly know everything that is problematic to another person and I think that's okay. We can call it when we see it and listen when others do, too! :)
Thank you!
This has happened to me too. Interestingly, HP has been really easy for me to sort of yeet from my shelves and experience because I didn't read it growing up. I was, however, in the middle of reading the Cormoran Strike novels by JKR and was pretty invested in them. I was on the fence about reading the 5th book and was definitely not going to buy a copy. And then a free copy came my way and I was like well what now? lol. I did end up reading it, and while I made an update on Goodreads, I never talked about it here and I don't think I'll ever talk about that series again. We are all kind of feeling our way around here, trying to make the best decisions. I think being thoughtful about it in the first place goes a really long way.
We all miss things! We are all going to miss things outside of our experience. I think there is also a bunch of shame associated with missing things, when really, we should normalize and promote receiving new information and course correcting accordingly. I read Eleanor and Park years ago and gave it like 3 or 3.5 stars. I thought it was cute! Since then, I've read a lot about the racism and fatphobia in the story, things I didn't catch, and so that means that I don't recommend or promote that book on my channel any more. Not that I was ever its #1 fan, but I think it's reasonable to not actively recommend it when there has been a significant amount of conversation about the harm it can cause.
So, yeah. This isn't simple and easy, we all miss things, we all make mistakes, but I don't think those are reasons to not TRY to be mindful of how we spend our time, money, and platform.
Anyone who knows me knows I’m a huge Twilight fan LMAOOOO but I also acknowledge the major issues that this series has, not only with the relationships but with the indigenous people. Stephenie Meyer could have made everybody in this series white and I would have been fine 😂 but since it is harmful to a certain demographic of people. This series was a huge part of my teen years, gave me my best friend since high school, and other close online friendships. I think as long as you recognize the issues within your fave book or series and actively work to keep doing that, then that’s all you can do. Burning copies, DVDs, buying secondhand, is useless because to still money leaving your pocket.
I totally understand this. And I appreciate anyone who can acknowledge the problematic things they like. Two things remain: 1- this is a privileged position to take as ultimately it doesn’t seem like the media harms you. And 2- if you have public platforms and use them to continue positively promoting Twilight, well then, your audience will see that. It’s ultimately all our own choices to make about what we prioritize, but that extends a little bit beyond ourselves when we do that publicly!
@@mynameismarines Of course! It is a place of privilege to say that I can enjoy a piece of content and still recognize its issues because I'm not of the community being harmed. I don't have a youtube channel, but I do have a book blog where I sometimes talked about Twilight before in the past, but since my rebrand, I haven't. But it's still a series I love, and there's privilege in still having that. And yes, it's all about prioritizing what's more important: your problematic fave or reality.
Awesome video as usual! Everything is political, and everyone has to make a choice as to what their limits are when it comes to consuming/promoting things, even if that choice is not caring at all, and it irks me when people don't seem to realise that. Completely agree with your points, and the original tweet.
Not even the main point of this video but I related HARD when you said you hate trying to convince people to care!! 😅 it's just exhausting and feels like it never works and makes it feel like you're just pouring all your empathy into a bottomless pit of "nope still don't care and you can't make me". Like okay, fine! I mean it's not fine, but I can't make you do something about it and it's really not fun or useful to try?
okay YES - people understand this concept perfectly in other aspects, but when it comes to engaging critically with content suddenly it's like 'hey they're just stories' - uh, yeah, stories that we know matter? that's literally why we're here on this platform?
-In my head it's kind of like how some people get mad about content warnings even EXISTING, or people needing/wanting to use them - we ALL plan our choices and activities to some extent, based on what we can deal with that day. How many times have we delayed a difficult project because we're exhausted, or an important but draining conversation when we're emotionally wrung out? but suddenly when it comes to media, we need to suck it up and force ourselves to experience it no matter what the subject matter is or what else is going on with us because...Art?? the inconsistency is infuriating
Wonderful discussion!! yes, money is not the only way we support content or ideas. And yes, a platform absolutely affects the decision process for me. Like if we're talking about continuing to read things after we find out something problematic about the author, there is a world of difference between me as an individual consumer rereading a thing I already spent money on in the privacy of my own home, vs. me publicly discussing and promoting it - even if that promotion is just "I reread this because I like it", that is still a kind of implicit promotion
My friend Taylor from PageScreenTaylor was talking about this after one of our Passed-It Classics liveshows and she brought up a great point - she talked about how being a reader and enjoy-er of classics kind of forces you to come up with these critical tools (at least, if you're doing it right) much sooner because hello, classics! lol. And I honestly do think being exposed early to works that we expect to need that kind of nuanced discussion can be really beneficial because it gets us used to bringing that nuance to the media we consume.
ANYWAY, wonderful video as always, sorry for my rambly essay of a comment, you're just so thoughtful and always make me want to talk even more than usual! 😂
Recently returned Ari and Dante (unchecked transphobia) before even reading it. Im honestly upset that the book community has come to a point where no one feels like just bc they didn't care about something harmful or problematic that they shouldn't inform other people about what's in the book.
When people say Idc I usually feel like its from a place of privilege bc the topic hasn't emotionally or mentally exhausted them.
I love this conversation and hopefully hope to see more of it.
I actually saw this one! I usually miss everything as I am not on Twitter everyday.
lol this never used to be me but now I'm missing things on Twitter too! It's kind of... nice...
I believe you’re right. Supporting an author’s works is supporting an author, monetarily or not. We should let problematic authors go and popularize better works when other authors have done awful things. Once we find out an author is racist, transphobic, anything else, it isn’t that hard to let things go at least on a public basis (and yes, this is coming from a neurodivergent person with hyperfixations, before anyone might reply to me using that as an excuse). Do you have to throw away a book? It’s up to you. I personally chose to burn my Marion Zimmer Bradley books when I found out what she did to her children, and I never owned books from other problematic authors, but I would do the same instead of donate where someone else could idolize an awful person.
As far as JKR goes, many of her ideals are stolen from better works. I would never buy another book from her.
Thank you gor sharing your thoughts. I really can't imagine a world where I was like 'I just don't care to engage in this critically'
Hello, just popping up to say your laugh is so infectious and I really love your content!
Thank you! Half my editing room floor is me, giggling at myself. Quality content.
I'm a consumer, not a media creator, so the issue of promoting isn't as critical. I don't tweet "anti" reviews, but I will give a poor rating on goodreads if I am feeling moved to do so, and I might note issues in a review I write. (I dont write reviews for all books I read).
Many books and shows I just avoid, like Game of Thrones. I can see why it's popular, but it's just too rapey and mean spirited for me to want to be in that fictional world by choice. No matter how hot Jason Momoa makes Khal Drogo, I don't want to watch.
Same for the series Oz; I was given that entire DVD set, and I am torn. I don't want to give to anyone else because who would I want to pass that on to? I don't want to sell it, or donate it. I guess I could throw it out, but it was a gift. So it's just in a box I haven't unpacked since my last move. Many books and shows I just avoid, like Game of Thrones. I can see why it's popular, but it's just too rapey and mean spirited for me to want to be in that fictional world by choice. No matter how hot Jason Momoa makes Khal Drogo, I don't want to watch. Same for the series Oz; I was given that entire DVD set, and I am torn. I don't want to give to anyone else because who would I want to pass that on to? I don't want to sell it, or donate it I guess I could throw it out, but it was a gift. So it's just in a box I haven't unpacked since my last move. I'm a consumer, not a media creator, so the issue of promoting isn't as critical.
The fact that I accompanied your tweet exchange with the person who Just Didn't Care as it was happening and was cracking up when you rehashed it... thank you so much for this lol
I agree that someone supports books and movies and every piece of media in multiple ways and not just monetarily. Talking about it, sharing photos of it, etc. are still a form of support. And we all read books that are 'problematic', but that's not the issue, esp. not when it comes to JKR. I honestly think that people who conflate reading books that are not morally correct or 'problematic' to some degree, whatever that means now, are purposefully misleading the conversation.There's a difference between reading books that are not overtly harmful but still bad/'problematic', and giving a platform to books that are by a violent TERF who's using the social currency she earns (by even mentions and discussions of her and her books) to directly impact legislation that's going to harm trans people within and outside of her country. People seem to ignore or forget just _how_ influential JKR is. Whether or not you like her books or her as a person, she has an immense amount of influence. She gets paid for so many things; ads, merch, even mentions of her indirectly affect her bank account which she uses to affect legislation. She has an unfathomable amount of social currency, which often goes unchecked because there's very few checks and balances to using the Internet and weaponizing your platform. And she's an author. She knows how to disguise hate speech as free speech. And it's made easy because Free speech has been manipulated to make people believe that harmful speech serves a purpose greater than causing _harm_.
This video is everything I have been trying to be as a reviewer as someone who posts about books on TikTok/Instagram etc. My Best Friend is of the mindset of she reads for herself and she doesn't care whether an author is problematic or not to which I've told she can do what she wants but to keep in mind that there are certain authors she should not bring up in front of me because I will be critical and I will be honest as to why I continue to not support these authors.
I found that when it's been known for a while an author is harmful to a specific community and that community has spoken out on numerous occasions. To then delete those comments, pretend the harm doesn't exist and promoting those books anyway then it's a red flag for me not to follow them. People can absolutely choose to promote and read what they want that is their choice to do so, as is my choice to not follow or support accounts who promote authors actively causing harm.
Glad to hear you're feeling better Mari 😊 Hope you'll continue to have time for self care girl ✨ sending you positive vibes and love to both you and your nails - I am loving that colour!!
Ultimately, we all have the right to decide who, and how, we support. If (like that person on twitter) you're okay with promoting things that could hurt others with your content because you don't care, then you do you 🤷🏻♀️ We then also have the right to stay away from said content. Yes, we should be mindful of the content we consume, but it's just as important to be mindful of what we put out there, virtually or physically, within your social circle/community.
Loved this video. So accurate.
This is such an interesting topic which can have some really nuanced discussions, as long as other people are kept in mind
Dang girl, keep us woke, we can't sleep more than we should! This is why I come back to your channel each time. I don't go on to on Twitter or tic tok but I appreciate you taking time on alll avenues.
My hot take is that people have a warped concept of morality? It seems like people can’t accept the concept of all humans doing both bad and good things. They will say that “all people are flawed” but they are also very defensive if their flaws are pointed out.
There is moral nuance to everything, and you do have to decide what you are going to care about and what corners you have to cut, because society sucks etc etc.
But promoting something is an active decision, you are spending time on it. Idk. JKR controversy has really annoyed me as a trans person, it hurts especially coming from cis queer people. I’m not demanding you burn all your books but talking about liking HP as a core aspect of your personality and then being like “but they were written by professor Mcgonigal tee hee”
Like you either care or you don’t lol but you can’t have it both ways. Similarly to your point about twilight.
Idk, that is my personal opinion, I don’t consider an objective moral judgment of everyone in the world, there is so much nuance. People want to turn morality into rules and it simply is not that way.
This is a great video, thank you for discussing this and also for making me think! I love your nails as well ❤
I have no bookish platform with any audience, however I am the go-to person in my friend group and with family when it comes to book recommendations, so even on that small scale I am aware of the risk of promoting material that may be harmful, if not to the reader, than to the people they come into contact with. I wouldn't want to recommend a book with, say, really harmful racial stereotypes to a family member who is less likely to pick up on them because they're not as critical a reader and aren't involved in bookish discussions online, and have that family member subconsciously take on those beliefs. But if I really loved a book that maybe had some issues, I will always point them out to the person I'm recommending to.
When it comes to defining my own limits when it comes to problematic content and figuring out which books I should buy and which books I can skip, I try to go with a positive-based approach - I know I have limited time and money, so do I want to spend that on a book with many problematic elements/a book by a problematic author, or should I pick up a book by an author that I know isn't problematic (problematic, to me, meaning perpetuating harmful thought/harming others without any genuine remorse, without taking responsibility for the harm they've caused, and without taking action to combat the harm they've caused) and has books that I am just as interested in? I'm not losing anything in this scenario - I am simply swapping one book for another. And because publishing still mostly promotes an overwhelming amount of white/straight/cis/able-bodied-focused stories, I know if I seek out works by diverse authors (works that I'm really interested in, just wouldn't have known about if I hadn't actually sought them out) I'm putting money in the pockets of people who get less opportunities in publishing and really need readers to spend the cash and promote their work.
To your last point regarding people understanding the positive impact of stories, I think there's a big "for me but not for thee" kind of attitude when people bring up hurtful elements. I've encountered it a lot in fandom: people gong on and on about just letting people enjoy things when that only really applies to a small subset of people. I remember during the shitshow when a bunch of ya authors were gushing about an incest couple some people were genuinely arguing with me that "fiction doesn't affect reality" and "good rep is important" are not exclusive statements???
Theres just a whole air of people not really wanting to consider that something they enjoy is, perhaps, extremely harmful and don't want to listen to impacted communities.
I have mentioned JKR on my blog maybe once or twice and I always start it with something about how I don't support her. I feel guilty even mentioning people like her.
Same, but I don't automatically throw every one under the bus who still likes the HP series. People on social media are going around like, "How dare you have a Hogwarts house in your bio."
Why?
@@thewolfandherbooks I do think there is a clear difference between loving HP and supporting the author. I do still love HP and it was a HUGE part of my life from a young age. However, I just don't talk about it online anymore.
personally for me, it's really easy for me to let go of problematic authors. i was a diehard harry potter fan and i grew up with the series! i was 11 like the characters when it was released and loved the movies, fandom, everything. it was surprisingly easy for me to let go because all the criticisms about her racism, antisemitism, fatphobia, homophobia, and transphobia are all true. i think it was also easy for me because it was such a white fandom, white series, and just very white-i never truly felt welcome anyway. had it been a bipoc author today who i absolutely love and follow, i don't know if it'd be as easy for me to do that. i think i'd be a lot more lenient and give the author room to grow because bipoc creatives are so rarely afforded that-we're often judged a lot more harshly than our white peers. now if it's something like chimamanda ngozi adichie, who is found consistently to be transphobic and targets trans people like akwaeke emezi, ezpz byebye.
"On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good and not quite all the time" - George Orwell.
IDK Mari, I think some people are just looking for permission to be unchallenged or irresponsible, even when no one is denying them that permission in the first place. They just want to be able to have a one-sided conversation.
People seem to forget that no one knows what you read ✨unless you tell them ✨.
Side note, I guess I have to get TikTok now, if that’s where your content has gone!
It always sort of boggles my mind when I see people purposefully reading books by authors they know are being problematic. I just cannot separate the work from the artist… and I’m not sure I’d want to anyway. I enjoy researching these people but I don’t go looking obsessively in their past hoping to find problems. And yet if some serious issues are brought to my attention for sure I’ll question whether I feel comfortable continuing supporting them or not. How you can simply say “I don’t care” is just beyond me really.
When I hear people say this stuff. What comes to mind other a nice side...and squant eyes...is like? What if one day you began care for say a transgender person? Right?
So then for most of your life? You've supported Johanne? Then this friend, lover, what have you? Beloved family member? Dad? Mom?
Has to reckon with that you made Johannes life easier and able to harm trans peoples?
Like that seem's a aweful a lot convince?
just reek's of...it's not my problem until...It is? You know? Like someone else reality isn't real until I say it is? And that my feeling's of utter apathy are more important then...(legitimentally) peoples lives? Hmm?
This can naturally apply to anything. Ounce heard some guy say he didn't understand why people learned history.
Well I just don't care, some people including myself feel that way
*cough, cough* owlcrate *cough, cough*
But it's just so funny to me. I can't. If you even walk close to Harry Potter books, you're the enemy of the state. But when people promote the Sarah J.Mass books about abuse and sexism and sexual exploitation that's fine! So I walk close to Harry Potter book, I am the enemy, I say SJM books are awful, I am also the enemy :D I guess Neil Gaiman it is :D
As a rule, I am able to separate the book (movie/ painting/ song etc) from the author. Otherwise we would not read or listen to anything or burn most paintings in this world. Genius is sometimes (most times?) troubled. Am I against drug use? Certainly, but banning all books/ songs etc written by drug users would mean banning most of the world's culture. A lot of amazing books were written under the influence of some drug or another. And then, there's the word "problematic". What does it mean, exactly? What is problematic to me may not be problematic to someone else, and vice versa. For instance, I don't see Rowling's statements as problematic and I think they have been taken out of context and inflamed because some topics are fashionable and all the rage at the moment. Sorry not sorry. I hate where the world is heading, cancel culture is a deadly virus. The catholic church used cancel culture and look where it lead us - we lost precious works of art that are impossible to recover because they were "problematic" in a certain era. Hit ler did the same, with banning and burning books.
I agree that talking about "problematic" issues should be done, but I don't agree with cancelling a whole person for things they might have said or did at a certain point in their life. We rehabilitate criminals, but we kill the reputation of perfectly great authors just because of this trend. People who read books should be above such things, but apparently some are still wearing horse glasses despite calling themselves "readers". Reading should open the mind, not close it.
Conflating drug use with hate speech is ridiculous. And conflating individuals choosing not to read a book with actual book burning is also ridiculous. Hitler burned books in order to erase undesirable minority groups (poc, disabled people, gay and trans people, communists, anarchists, etc), which is fundamentally different from not wanting to read a book by someone who is transphobic or racist. If you're so big on readers being logical, you should be able to recognize a logical false equivalency.
Also: Rowling is a transphobic garbage can and bad writer, so the fact you're going to bat for her makes me think you don't have good taste in literature and just don't like trans people
@@maia_gaia Rowling was merely an example, I mentioned her because this video specifically pointed her out. I do enjoy HP, I don't think she's a genius. Those are two separate things. One can enjoy fun literature that is not exactly a masterpiece, can they not? Or are we supposed to only read Shakespeare?
But ok, since you're an elitist who only reads "good literature", is Garcia Marquez trash because he was a communist? Nevermind, don't answer, you are exactly what I was talking about. Books are supposed to open minds, not close them.
Oh and as I said in my comment, I am able to differentiate between an author as a private person and their work. My views on transgenderism or any other issue are not the views of each particular author that I read. That would mean I would have to change views every single day. But apparently you are unable to understand a written text.
@@maia_gaia I was not talking about choosing not to read a book. I could care less what people choose to read or not. Everyone has their own tastes and interests. What I was talking about - and maybe you would have understood had you actually read my comment with a clear head and not prejudice - is that I will never agree to CANCEL CULTURE. That is simply different from choosing not to read a book for whatever reason.
@@nonabgo You kind of do, otherwise you wouldn't have called out a whole sect for something that happened in the past. Read what you want, but don't try to pretend like you aren't selective about what you choose to give your attention. See straw man fallacy.