Chapter 27 Pathological Demand Avoidance - what is it and do I have it?
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2023
- Chapter 27 recapping my unexpected Autism and ADHD year: this week I'm looking at Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), my discovery of this profile on the autism spectrum, and assessment of whether it might be a profile I have or not.
I look at why there are some disagreements about the status of PDA and share some of Sally Cat PDA's content, as well as links and signposts to a range of other sources for people who might be interested in exploring this profile for themselves.
Please do like and share this video and subscribe to my channel if you find any of it useful, or message me to get in touch and connect.
Contact email: amineurodivergent@gmail.com
Some useful links:
National Autistic Society PDA Guide for Autistic Adults:
www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-...
PDA Society: What Is PDA:
www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is...
Sally Cat PDA: www.sallycatpda.co.uk
Sally Cat's Guide to Internalised PDA: • Sally Cat's Guide to I...
Riko's Blog: PDA and More: dragonriko.wordpress.com
PDA Test for Adults: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FA...
Self-help, coping strategies and therapies for adult PDAers:
www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-wi...
Workplace adjustments for PDA:
www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-wi...
AQ Autism Self-Test:
I'm going to keep posting the link to the AQ Self Test for autism every Sunday in case this is the first video in the series people come across. Take the self test (remember it's JUST a self-test) and see how you score. You may have been on the autism spectrum all along and just had no idea, like I was:
psychology-tools.com/test/aut...
ADHD Self-Test:
(with all the same caveats as above) an ADHD self-test. ADHD is even MORE common than autism (and many of us will have both); the vast majority of ADHDers just struggle through from childhood through adulthood having no idea that they even HAVE ADHD, let alone working out strategies to cope and deal with it all better to be happier and less frustrated with ourselves and others.
psychology-tools.com/test/adu...
![Unpacking "Pathological Demand Avoidance" [CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g8RqHnatiNg/mqdefault.jpg)
Having demand free time is so important to me. I call them my "days off."
just completed the linked "PDA Test for Adults" and got a 53/90, looked at the ranges and saw "A score of 33-40 indicates very likely to be autism" ... yeah, i figured.
Did the ADHD test too aaaand:
"Your score on Part A was 6 out of a possible 6. Your score on Part B was 9 out of a possible 12. Scores in the 4-6 range are indicative symptoms consistent with ADHD in adults."
I've been doing a bunch of tests for autism, ADHD, etc over the years, and as much as i'm trying not to self-diagnose, by being honest with my answers, it's as i've suspected for quite a while, now i think i need to get formally tested :)
Thanks for the great videos, and the guidance, keep going on your journey, and any part of it that involves sharing, such as these videos, is appreciated :)
Been on the fence about PDA for a while until you described Internalized PDA which describes me exactly. First time I've heard a separation of the 2. Thanks for sharing!
Yeah, it's definitely the aspect I relate most to. Have a closer look at Sally Cat PDA's website and facebook stuff, she describes it really well.
My best argument for your not having PDA is the fact that you've been able to regularly produce and upload these videos. End of story.
And you can see why I stopped trying after the Predator noise.
PDA was first suggested to me about 6 years ago by an online therapist I had. I joined some Facebook groups, but at that time it was all parents complaining about their children who would burn down the house if they were asked to take out the garbage. I didn't think it fit me then, but having come back around to it in the last year, it's incredibly clear that this is what's going on with me, and it also would explain the paradoxes in my presentation of autism, wherein I can fake eye contact, have a sense of humor, use superficial charm to get out of doing things, etc.
Yet, at the same time, I can fall into something that feels like a demand I'm tethered to, except, and will not let go of. Like, sometimes, I become a completionist about watching every episode of something, or I used to have a bad Facebook habit, and I would feel compelled to comment on _everything_ and wood indulge it.
This is fun times.
Yeah, that's a very solid point thank you. As much as I find it absolutely exhausting prepping notes for and recording these videos some weeks, apart from once when I was super-overwhelmed, I always make time for them because the sense of accomplishment at building up the chapters and ticking them off towards 52 gives me a BIG dopamine hit strong enough to overcome the demand avoidance and difficulties with task initiation. I do have to go back through my old journals and write up almost all my notes in one hours-long burst because it takes me so long to psych myself up to sit down and do it and not feel overwhelmed. But (almost) every week for the last six months I've done it.
I'm actually really f***ing proud of myself when I think about it like that, but yeah, that's probably not PDA even if there's a lot of bleed-across with other aspects. That's a helpful marker. For you, I can totally see how something you'd really enjoyed previously there was suddenly an expectation that you do more of it and that just killed it for you. That really sucks, I'm sorry. I do recognise feeling tethered to demands like you describe and that completionist episode watching is something I do. I can't NOT finish a series once I've started, even if I've stopped enjoying it. At least I don't summarise and rate every episode of shows I like, like I used to do when I was a teenager. God, that was fun, Imma start doing that again!
thank you for doing this - finally a more 'sober' (not somber!) male voice I can identify with :)
Thank you! An enticing rabbit hole, indeed. Looking forward to learning more about my own baffling behaviors and those of others.
I found it absolutely shocking at a child protection meeting last year that no social worker knew about pda. I had to explain and because of my own autism, adhd communication difficulties, they were not convinced what I said about it.
It continually shocks me how people who should know about all this as part of their professional qualifications just simply don't. It's quite upsetting actually. We're getting there but we've got a long way to go. EDIT: Sometimes when I need to make a point or points to people but don't feel I can rely on my brain to remember all the right points, I'll print out some bullet points I've gathered from websites etc to take along with me as a reminder.
Very interesting. We've got BPD in our family along with my ADHD / autism. I can see how these profiles overlap and diverge. I've come to the conclusion that while fitting a profile and receiving a diagnosis is extremely important for most of us, day to day, it's finding ways to feel comfortable in our own skin's that matter.
Love this attitude, thank you for expressing it so concisely. I think that's the correct response. I for one spent way too long obsessing over which were the right 'bits' for me and trying to use (constantly shifting) diagnostic criteria to intellectualise the 'what' and the 'why', rather than focusing on the 'how' which is by far the most important aspect - how we can feel better and more comfortable in our skin!
This was very informative.
I inherently questioned this profile type prior to knowing it was possibly controversial within the community. However I kept an open mind knowing that my lack of experience with something doesn't invalidate it's existence. I will continue to remain neutral about it because I am just smart enough to know how little knowledge I have about everything.
I incorrectly thought PDA was simply being boss level contrarian. I am quite contrarian myself but knew it wasn't to an extreme clinical level.
Very interesting how closely this resembles AuDhD or common symptoms of autism. Almost feels like distinctions to be picked apart with tweezers and a magnifying glass, but there are some distinctive differences I see.
Anyway funny that the misconception of lack of humor was something that made you initially question the possibility of being autistic because... same.
The very first video I watched talked about people with autism not having the ability to understand sarcasm or lacking a sense of humor and I was like "nope that's not me"
Jealous that the UK has an autism show. I wonder if we have something similar here in the US...
Thanks Jenn - so interesting about the humour, I wonder if a lot of us discount ourselves or feel like we're somehow not this because of the humour line in the sand. I wonder if it might eventually be consigned to the dustbin of traits (or at least heavily caveated), like lack of empathy is in the process of becoming.
Thank you so much for the tech tutorial again - I tried to edit in some of Sally Cat's animations to this but I just don't have the patience and just got frustrated and gave up and did one long single monotonous straight-to-camera take again ... 🤣
Oooh! On US autism show! December road trip to Colorado?? Temple Grandin's speaking! worldautismconference.org (EDIT: just explored further. It's very expensive. Because...America. No road trip. 😞)
@@amineurodivergent I too have hoped this would follow the backseat the empathy trope is beginning to take
And damnit that would have been a blast to see you here! Maybe I'll have to make my way to the UK for the autism fair next time
I definitely went down the PDA rabbit hole when I first suspected I was ASD as part of my imposter syndrome but ultimately ASD is a better fit for me. I'm glad you mentioned the alternate descriptor 'Persistent Drive for Autonomy ', I was hoping you would, that I identify with more.
I will acknowledge PDA as its own thing, if that's what PDA'ers say who am I to deny that. Maybe it's an ASD co-morbidity. And maybe we should think of it like the commonality of executive function issues between ASD and ADHD and similar areas of overlap. Because you are ASD and have EF issues doesn't mean your are ADHD and vice versa, the same could probably be said about having demand avoidance issues but not meeting the full criteria of PDA.
Regardless, I think I'll try to put into use some of the techniques described in the resources as a way to cope with the demands placed on me.
Yes, I'm increasingly seeing it all as one big messy Venn Diagram with lots of blurred lines and bleed-across between areas. There's a lot of 'bits' each of us have from other 'bits', everyone really is their own unique version of this and can cherry-pick the techniques and resources that work for their specific circumstances.
thank you for this video. I've been trying to work out whether I have inertia or PDA. Can I have both. It's really annoying to 'want' to do something but I just can't start it. For example I've been waiting for a CAL (crochet along) to start. I quickly bought the yarn for it. Everything is ready to start and ............ yep it started last weekend. I've now stopped doing any crochet at all. I'm aware that I'm not even looking at the balls of wool............... I'm physically and psychologically avoiding them.................. It's nuts!!!! So many excuses not to start. So much anxiety building about not starting. I've already failed in my mind and haven't even tried to do it. Bonkers. It sums up my life.
You can have both as far as I'm aware. Autistic inertia is a very common aspect of autism, struggling to shift gears or transition between tasks. I definitely struggle with that. PDA, as I understand it, is 'sort of' like that but the more demand or pressure to shift gears or transition into a new task, either from yourself or from others, the more you resist it, not to be contrary but as an unconscious adrenaline response that can produce lots of anxiety, and with lots of additional aspects that fit that profile too - which others (Sally Cat or Kristy Forbes, for example, explain better than I do - I'm definitely not a PDA expert here!).
This second bit is the bit I'm struggling to work out whether I have or not. Some days I feel I do, others not. So probably not on balance. But it's very hard to parse them or determine where the line is. I'd encourage you to go check out Kristy's No Pressure PDA facebook page or reach out to her, your struggles do sound pretty PDA-ish (and worse than mine, as much as I feel the resistance I can usually kind of painfully push myself through a transition eventually after much procrastination and anguish), but as I say I'm definitely not an expert on this. Good luck!
I'm finding your videos very interesting and helpful.
I scored 43/50 on the pda test for adults. (I score high on the aq and low on the adhd tests).
I guess that explains a lot about my life. 😏
Interesting - and puts paid to the argument a PDA profile could just be the combination of autism and ADHD. It does definitely seem to be its own distinct and unique autism profile!
@@amineurodivergent yes. Definitely it's own sub type. 🙂👍👍
And love this vid too. As much as the other 26.
Weird experience to listen to those questions you listed. So many yeses and a perfect snapshot of my past couple of months in work delivery hell. I’ve even been officially on leave since Wednesday, but still working. Bcuz that’s the way I never stopped rolling…
KMN 😣
Oh yes, the taking leave to catch up on work without the demands of more coming in. Been there, done that, had the burnout. Hope you're doing alright...
Ah no my very long comment has disappeared … hope it wasn’t inappropriate 😢
Anyway interesting video and Sally cat animation on PDA is great !
Oh no, sorry - I've had a couple of emails about this recently that people have posted comments on my videos and they haven't appeared! Can I ask, did you post a link in your previous comment? UA-cam algorithms seem to remove comments with links in them that weren't posted by the author. It's really frustrating because I'd like these comments to be a space where people can share resources 😞
Hi yes I did, it disappeared after I edited and added a link !
It was just a comment about co-morbidities and how they can muddy the waters regarding diagnosis . I added names of others who like me have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome or HSD and have also been diagnosed as neurodivergent and a link to some research.
@@janhillier2463 Gah, how frustrating - so sorry you (and I) lost what your wrote 😞
Wonder if PDA is stopping me from starting art work? Thinking overthinking & overthinking at any one time, it does feel like a pathological avoidance & have procrastinated for thirty years...
Have a look at the procrastination video I did as well if you get the chance, I think it was the one I did immediately after this one. I know the feeling of having procrastinated for thirty years; I'm feeling a little like I want to go back to school and start everything again with the right user manual lately.
And, just a quick note-- I'm 27 episodes in.. and I don't know your name. I'm sure you've said it at some point, but I didn't retain it. Perhaps give your name after your welcome, as in "Welcome to 'Am I Neurodivergent?'-- I'm your host and tour guide, six-time Grammy winner and lead singer of the Replacements, ."
Yeah, it was a choice at the beginning, and it's now become a thing. I was nervous about being proper 'me' and giving my name at the beginning, so just didn't. It already felt exposing enough sharing so much of what I'd been through, I'd never 'put myself out there' like that before. Then I decided I was going to just start saying my name in my videos, it's not like it matters or anything. Then I decided I'd start intro'ing with my name if I ever got up to 1000 subscribers (I'm on like 945 at time of writing) so now I've got a bit superstitious about doing it before then, even though I use my name fine with people who have emailed me.
Anyway, in the next week or two, I'm going to do just that, just be me, not me behind a mask of anonymity, say my name, and probably start super-over-sharing about my whole life's history actually for a few episodes. All or nothing, baby! Cheers - Struan
@@amineurodivergent It's a little like how "Hello, The UA-cam" became my thing. I think people would be upset if I didn't start a video with that greeting.
I'm sure you'll hit 1,000 and it will snowball from there. But I do understand the superstition-- you made a rule; you can't just break it!
Uh oh. 19:56
🤣
Look, if you’re gonna start over sharing, then best come clean about the Nobel too. Time to stop hiding your light under a bushel.
🤣