This man just helped me answer what I’ve been trying to figure out my entire life. I felt like there was a darkness to me and that deep down I was a horrible human being. A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and I now I can research and get help to learn how to be more one with it. I don’t know if he’ll read this but if he does- you changed my life. Thank you. ❤️
I just found out about this archetype today and I literally texted my sister “There’s like tons of resources for me which makes me sad cus I thought I wasn’t a nice person when push really came to shove” 😭😭
This is brilliant. Should be compulsory viewing for doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers and teachers and of course families who need it. Thank you so much.
Today is the first day I am hearing this term. I want to fucking SCREAM. I am 41 and I won’t even wear makeup because of the expectation. Nothing in my life is untouched by this. My finances, relationships, money management- all of it. I need it to stop!!!!!
This is the best video I've ever seen on the internet to help me understand my own internal processes that sometimes worry me b/c they're so automatic yet so enigmatic. Thank you so much.
My brother was diagnosed with this at the very beginning of lockdown. it's really difficult for us as a family to handle his instability but having a label now, i can find helpful videos like these and they help so much
I am so jealous of your ability and willingness to be there for your brother and to research and gain an understanding of this… my family doesn’t believe in PDA, has refused to research it, and has refused to offer help - financial and emotional support are terrible things to lack as a PDA person, and I feel completely out of control having begged for and received next to no understanding or assistance in my daily, maddening struggles to do the “simplest” things.
@@caitlinroseblaney226 Yeah, when I tell my mother I might need help, cause I'm missing deadlines beyond my control, she thinks I should deal with it on my own (which I've been saying to myself as well, but things are getting out of control). She was always adverse to the idea that there might be something different with me and ignored the hints of other people. But I don't blame her, her life has been very hard too. I hope I'll get official diagnose soon, now at 39...
I have PDA, and have tested the “I can’t” concept with demands thoroughly. They aren’t kidding, the body actually shuts down physically. For me, if I willpower myself brutally hard enough to follow through with a demand I really don’t want to do, I can reach a point where I will uncontrollably start laughing hysterically. It is so bad and constant that my entire body convulses like I’m having a seizure, and I will keep laughing hysterically for potentially hours, with no successful way to stop it myself. Sometimes, I faint from hypoxia, because I literally can’t breath. Also, once I hit that breaking point, nothing can be done. Taking away the demand does nothing. It is as if something snaps. There is no anxiety of dying, or a conscious desire for control. It is just a not wanting to do something so intensely brutally badly, and it being just so uncomfortable (but not painful), that it makes you laugh, convulse, and faint if pushed to hard. They aren’t kidding about “I can’t”. I have not solved this either, it is as fundamental as a physiological pathology, like an autoimmune disease, or a severe mental illness. Your body just does what it does, it just functions the way you expect, or it doesn’t.
Thank you for raising awareness of PDA because it's so hard to deal with. I'm on a two week sleep study which is supposed to be monitoring how much I sleep, which is usually 16-18 hours a day... During the study, I've achieved more in the garden, crafting, and tidying the house, than I have in the last two months, and my average sleep during the study is about 10 hours a day because I'm *supposed* to be letting myself sleep, so obviously I have to do anything BUT sleep! I'm now watching this, instead of sleeping! #facepalm
Wow, I had a very similar issue! Towards the end of college (2018), I started sleeping about 16 hours a day and would even have days once or twice a year where I would sleep more than 24 hours straight with the exception of using the bathroom (but even that would happen in a stupor that I didn't remember). I've been struggling ever since and have been seeing sleep neurologists and various other doctors. They think it's either idiopathic hypersomnia or type 2 narcolepsy, but when I had an overnight sleep study, they had to end it early (without the daytime MSLT portion) because I barely slept at all during the nighttime portion. Of course when I got home I crashed and slept for 20 hours. Unfortunately, I lost my insurance shortly after cause I aged out of my parents plan, and I'm going on two years without approval for my disability application, so I can't redo the sleep study at this point (I should mention that I live in the US where my country would rather I die than give me healthcare so long as I cannot give them immediate profit). I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to find someone experiencing similar things. I wonder if there could be a relationship between PDA and whatever sleep issue(s) we have. Do you mind if I ask how you are doing now 9 months later? Particularly with the excessive sleeping?
My son was diagnosed with autism at age 4, but as he's gotten older (he's 8 now) autism seems to describe his challenges less and less. Finally a therapist suggested PDA to us, which was an epiphany. Everything with him is a negotiation; he NEEDS to feel like he is getting a fair deal out of any situation. It can never just be "because I told you so." Also, softening demand is such a huge thing. When we get ready for school I don't tell him it's time to put on clothes. Instead I tell him his clothes are sitting on the floor and I'm going upstairs (he will not put them on if I'm in the room because then it's like I won). It can certainly be a huge challenge and what I describe as mental warfare to some people lol.
My child is the same with dressing for school. Plus he has to hide once dressed and jump out and scare me when I come into the room. PDA has finally explained his behaviours.
Yes! My 8 year old will not wear the socks I matched, even though he is looking for matcged socks, because I told him where they are or I tried to hand them to him. He will instead wear unmatched dirty socks and even clothes that are dirty when there are clean ones available simpky because I pointed out that there are clean clothes available. It is so difficult. I purposefully ignore him just so he will get ready(in some form) in the morning. I can tell his siblings to get their shoes on as a que that we are going to leave, but not him.
@@melinapeartree I totally feel what you're going through. It often feels like my son is trying to spite me when he does things like your son is doing with the socks. He just HAS to do it differently than I want him to. And when his mind is set on something it's almost like it's stuck. I hope you're able to get some sort of help with your son. Here in the US we basically have no support for PDA and we're going through a really rough patch right now in our house.
If you are neurotypical yourself, or subconsciously aligning your actions and speech to conform with a neurotypical environment over a significant portion of your life unrecognised, the information you present in the initial request may not fulfill that which the autistic individual you're interacting with requires to make decisions. When questions follow, that can be genuinely trying to find out enough for the task to be completed as intended, and for the motives behind it and the logic of said course of action to be understood. "Because I told you so" doesn't convey any valuable information to the situation or elaborate on what is needed for complete understanding in both parties for the situation. Autistic individuals can approach, or simply not see, hierarchy in completing tasks, so there may not be any understanding of the neurotypical parent child relationship where the parent dictates the actions most of the time, and this extends to teachers, older pupils in hall monitor or prefect positions, bosses and more experienced/older colleagues in work places, etc. There's a natural instinct to negotiate at the same level regardless of who they're interacting with, and this can extend to very young children too. A PDA-esk appearance could result from the autistic individual observing decisions being made that don't make sense to them or don't seem logical or the best way to do the task(s) to them. If this repeats enough, without clarification on the decision making process followed at the time, the autistic individual could then resist the individual presenting the demand/requirements to them if they don't explain thoroughly their reasoning, the purposes, etc behind that decision. Presenting the information that leads to you concluding 'clothes need to be put on to go to xxxxx' so they can conclude the same may lead to better understanding. I'm going to try to logic through why school uniforms are important now. Unspoken socially accepted/expected stuff should be avoided when asking 'why' leads to 'that's just how it is'. Leaving the house without any clothes on is inappropriate, why, because people see it as indecent, why....(circling a vague point with nothing to really pinpoint). Instead, set out logical stuff that can be more commonly accepted across different brain types. Why wear clothes to leave the house? To regulate temperature, prevent sun burn, keep dry, etc, be generally prepared for varying predictable weather and temperature conditions throughout the day. Why wear specific clothing, aka, a uniform? So that staff at the school can quickly identify you as a student form a distance, people you interact with can know where you're going to in the morning if you were to get lost (my overthinking might be the reasoning behind that one). Why are there non-uniform days if the uniform is important? They understand the uniform can be more uncomfortable than other clothing types so occasionally, on a day with more predictable student movement, they enable students to have a more comfortable day. Why are uniforms not just made of the comfortable clothes? To be harder wearing for regular use and to be worn for hours at a time up to 5 days a week for almost a full year at a time, and to ensure their design stands out from the more common comfortable designs of clothing. Why wear clean clothes? To prevent illness over time, make enclosed gathering spaces more habitable than dirty and potentially smelly clothing would make them. I understand this isn't your comment (I'm just replying to the main comment in the hope the other replies see it too), but the reply mentioning pairing socks. Although it might take more time, perhaps involve them in the decision for you to pair them on their behalf, or leave the unpaired socks in a basket for them to choose from, or involve them in the process so they can gain their own understanding of how it works and how accepting help from others to complete tasks is a good thing/logical decision. If they feel they've been involved in delegating you to pair socks like they like, then they could potentially experience that as them making the decision. Like mentioned before, have a discussion on why clean clothes are better to wear, but ask the questions and enable them to discover the reasons themselves, then lead into asking if they'd prefer you to wash their clothes, or offer the option for them to wash their clothes themselves, and you can help if they decide they need it type thing. Also talk through the steps, by asking them to fill them in, of why clean clothes should be stored in a wardrobe, drawers, etc, they're relatively sealed to keep them cleaner for longer, they'd get dirtier much quicker if on the floor, would be a trip hazard, would take up space they could use for other things if just piled next to/on the bed, etc. The only thing with clothing, choosing dirty stuff over clean and similar. Ensure they aren't avoiding certain things due to the sensation of the clothing, how it feels. Does a tag itch their neck, does a seem in socks or other clothing rub their skin in an uncomfortable way, do clean clothes have a different texture or overwhelming scent to them that make them less appealing? I've watched some other videos that suggest children can find it difficult to explain this type of thing, so you'd need to give them the words in the questions to be able to answer them. If they observe that no one else appears to have issues with clothing, they may assume it's normal to be very uncomfortable, until they get overwhelmed by it and then simply can't deal with it anymore. Certain things can be amplified for autisitc individuals, so were you might think you feel a seem or label and think it's bearable, but to an autistic individual that same degree of contact is overwhelming. You could place a lego piece or similar on a table your sitting at and lean your hand on it, potentially with a good portion of your seated upper body weight on it, not comfortably, but you could stay like that for minutes, in a way you couldn't if you stood up then leaned on it with your whole bodyweight. To an autistic individual placing their hand on that lego piece while sitting at the table could be experienced at the same level as you standing and placing your full weight on it, even though there isn't the same physical affects of putting a lot of weight on something that shape, so things that are simply noticeable by a neurotypical or other individual with a lower/average/'normal' level of sensitivity (not excluding other autistic individuals) could already be being experienced at an unbearable level for an autistic individual. The more I look into autism, the crazier the complexity of it gets. A recent video describes how it's like an iceberg, and even what one autistic person can relate to or see in another autistic person is a second iceberg in itself. I find just navigating what various autistic individuals prefer to refer to it as as a constantly moving minefield, and I feel the titles, etc, depending on their experiences, can have an amplified significance, positive and negative by the nature of some autistic characteristics.
the description of the defense system and how it drives the PDA part to mute all empathetic behavior and then once the threat is over, empathy comes back is so on point.
Wow, this explains much. I was a peculiar/odd child. When my child was diagnosed with PDD/NOS it let to my Autism Diagnosis which explained a lot. But this is a game changer. After 56 years of hating myself for my inability to do what I needed to do (even when I really wanted to do it) here is an explanation. Thank you so much for posting this. Not much is known about PDA here in the USA, my mental health professional and I will have to learn about this together.
Fascinating. This is a cogent presentation with concise explanations. You have made this information so much more relatable by speaking from personal experience. I relate to your decision-making process in your youth pretty much in its entirety. "What authority? Show me..." =D I realized recently that my PDA used to manifest when I played competitive tennis in my youth. I was known to "choke" or throw away my lead when I was ahead, thereby sabotaging my own progress. During this time, as a reaction to my frustration at losing what looked like an unassailable lead, I would start smashing my tennis rackets; by the end of the match my racket(s) would be eviscerated, and I would have lost, often just 'giving up' when I lost my cool, not being able to commit my mind to focus on winning, and putting in a half-assed performance before my opponent even caught up to my score, let alone take the lead - I would practically hand the win to them by self-destructing on court. Interestingly enough, this only happened in critical, final-stage matches, or in earlier rounds if/when I was faced with an opponent I was expected to defeat easily. In hindsight, the phenomenon they call "choking", for me, was simply a manifestation of PDA. Understanding even just this one instance of its manifestation has changed my life; it has enabled me give answer to some of my most perplexing (mis)behaviour in my youth and young adulthood. Thank you for writing your book!
I realised recently that I might have PDA, this video is highly relatable aside from the precise way it's described. Like the 'other side' of you that appears for example, I don't see that side of me as lacking empathy or cruel. I'd rather describe it as a fight response within the system where you suddenly stop seeing a person you love as a person but rather a threat. I haven't responded in that way for a long time, most likely due to the fact that I have harbored good self control/regulation skills and since I'm good at hiding negative aspects due to abuse I experienced in the past, which was triggered by my responses. Going to school has been a huge barrier in my life. As a kid I would have fits when woken up and I'd refuse to clothe myself or get put of bed. Back then I would use any strategy possible to not go including faking sick, yelling, refusing to move or speak, guilt tripping, etc. But I don't recall any abusive behaviour from myself for a long time since I worked on myself. Most of my demand avoidance today is subconscious and something which causes psychological damage to myself, like I often wait until the last moment to go which makes me late or I'll lie to myself that I'm sick. It's extremely difficult to cope with, but knowing what causes this helps a lot. I know to not push myself since I'll only end up stuck, I've noticed that following instinct like hunger helps me wake up early rather than forcing myself out of bed. Okay rant over bye lol
Yup, that's me. Took me more than 40 years to clock it. I wish I had that framework to understand my behaviour earlier, would've spared me a lot of grief.
This guy has educated me. As a result 4 little humans may just grow up with less trauma and an ounce of self esteem. I hope he sees this commebt one dayeven though he'll be cringed out!
I relate really strongly to the anxious demand avoidance thing, and yes I need to be in control, because the prospect of being unable to meet a demand, the prospect of failure, is *terrifying* , but I would never dream of attempting to manipulate or control others. I absolutely don't keep lists of people's weaknesses. I'd never ever ever ever use something like that against people. There is no 'dark center' to my personality. Christ I'm not evil. Honestly I think this is a p!ss-poor attempt at showing people the insides of PDA'ers minds. It's accurate to some people, probably, but this weird evil sh!t can't be everyone with PDA. To me it seems like all this does is increase villification, not actual understanding. You didn't even manage to convey that this is about fear, anxiety and a lack of confidence in one's ability to function as expected first and foremost. No I haven't somehow mastered neurotypical empathy in order to manipulate? What? That's not something you can just choose to do. I have heaps of empathy and care for the people of the world, it's just hard for me to instinctively relate to and understand neurotypicals. That is how most aut!stic people's empathy works. When a demand that is too much for me persists, all that happens is that I get a panic attack/meltdown (=uncontrollable sobbing for me)/su!cidal intent, probably all at once. It all turns inwards, not outwards. I wouldn't harm a fly. My ability to love and care does not go anywhere. That is always there. I'll probably just feel extreme amounts of guilt and shame and hopelessness for letting you down and being a burden and not being able to explain why. I feel guilty, because falling apart *feels* like manipulation because it does get people to give me a break, even though I'm not in control of it happening. But no holy heck I've never made another person cry in one of these instances, all that happens is that they want to hug me until I'm better, without immediately asking what's wrong, and while I'm not a fan of hugging, this is pretty close to what I need in a moment like that. Yes I mask (A LOT) and I show different people different true aspects of myself, shards, but that's because I don't want to be rejected, and not because I'm looking to misrepresent what I am or to manipulate the people around me. I'm just intimately familiar with what it's like to be rejected by everyone around you, and not willing to go through that again, so I'll sacrifice my personhood for your comfort around me. When someone asks me to do something, yes the first thing I do is say 'no', but then I still do it. Maybe I'll wait half an hour, so that it's MY choice, maybe I hand over the butter at the same moment as the word 'no' leaves my mouth, but I do it. Unless it's a big thing that's too overwhelming, like finding a job or finishing a thesis, then I try as hard as I can but anxiety overtakes me and I have to stop to bring the anxiety back down to non-su!cidal levels. Yes I'm more comfortable in roleplaying and fantasy than in life, and yes the extent to which I obsess over D&D and stories (both ones I make in my head and external ones) is a problem. My special interests are pretty typical for an aut!stic person I'd say. I'm as resistant to change as your average aut!stic. I've never been boisterous or difficult or anything ADHD-adjacent, no disrespecting authority (outwardly anyways). I just feel like this guy is generalizing his own experiences to a group of people that is probably a lot more diverse than is presented here. Maybe this whole PDA thing just isn't as applicable to myself as I thought, but then again, the demand avoidance part resonates so hard that it's probably the biggest problem in my life. Why else would I be unable to meet demands to do things that I desperately want to do? Maybe the darkness only develops when PDA'ers get pushed too hard, don't get listened to, don't get granted agency, and so they need to develop these defense mechanisms that I didn't need. As a counter-anecdote to the 'time to put your coat on' line, my parents deliberately always phrased things like 'do you want to put your coat on inside out or upside down?' (that's an actual example) and then the answer would be a stubborn 'inside out!' Everyone wins. If my answer was 'no', my parents would be like 'okay well I'll let you bang your head into a wall then, you'll see for yourself.' My parents never did the 'because I said so' thing, because that didn't work. They learned really quickly that explaining precise reasoning as to why things had to happen was the way to go. Then I could make the decision of whether I agreed they should happen.
One thing to consider is that you may be unaware how much pain you cause other people, and how subconsciously to manipulate people, finding their weaknesses to avoid demands.
@@intersection5664 Are you for real right now? You know nothing about me and you accuse me of that sh!t? The assumption that PDA'ers are evil is that strong huh? Hey have you heard of Freud, Karl Popper and falsification theory? Freud was also convinced that if his theories didn't fit someone, then that person must just either be lying, or the effect must be subconscious. Either way, no matter what his patients said or did, the theories he cooked up were always correct. They were not falsifiable. And that's why his theory was horse-sh!t, according to Popper and then the entire scientific community. You'll learn this if you go to any university, any major. Philosophy of science is a mandatory subject for everyone. At least it is where I'm from.
I didn’t read your whole comment, but I ABSOLUTELY agree that while I have an inner protector that becomes “big” when I am made to feel insignificant, abused, and small / bad by constant demands, I definitely DO NOT keep an inner list of people’s weaknesses or “Achilles’ heels”. So I agree that while that might very well apply to SOME people with PDA, nobody should assume that it is anywhere near true of all of us. If anything, it seems more like everyone knows MY weaknesses and uses them against me, but I don’t use theirs and wouldn’t want to even if I could spot them and use them. Nothing against Harry - as I know how difficult survival is in this world for PDA people like us - but that is absolutely not me at all, and I’m sure by logical extension that many others with PDA don’t do that as well.
@@intersection5664 Honestly, as an autistic person I find that a huge difficulty of mine is with reading people at all - never mind being able to look for or pinpoint their weaknesses, so I don’t think that I’m subconsciously or consciously using their weaknesses against them - nevermind doing that intentionally when I’m triggered by their demands.
@24:30 my son refused to put on trousers when I was thick with snow outside, so I caved and let him stubbornly stand outside in it (for almost a solid minute, because I'd told him he definitely needed trousers and he was adamant he did NOT 😅) until he chose to ask for them. That whole thing makes sense now
This is so painfully *not* the universal PDA experience. The way he’s generalizing “we” and “our” is extremely dangerous for those of us who need neurotypicals to stop stigmatizing, othering, and vilifying us. I thought this might teach me how to describe it better, instead now I’m terrified for any young PDAers whose parents find this and take it as objective truth.
I strongly agree. As with autism there isn't a "universal experience" of PDA. It effects individuals differently depending on their personalities and circumstances.
Time stamps for myself 10:59 - social obsessions over topics 11:30 hyper vigilance in case there’s a demand 12:39 behaving in “psychopathic” ways 15:09 the emotional empathy goes away, explaining why i stop seeing people as people i love and care about, and i’m not myself anymore, using any means necessary to regain my sense of control … damn. yep. 17:45 feels as thought we didn’t do it. god damn. this explains so much of my life. 31:33 needing to actually experience why we can or can’t do something. my dad has complained about me being like this my whole life
This person describes PDAers as Machiavellians. I just discover that I have this profile, but this Dark Passenger that he mentions, that is simply not me. That doesn't exist. I rationalize everything.
@@ConnoisseurOfExistenceyes but I wouldn't call that evil if anything its a sense of control, or a fight and flight reaction to having your autonomy taking away.. at the very least you may think they are understanding how you are feeling at that time to make them empathetic.. just answering for him in my experience.. the one thing I was good at was getting people mad at me even if I wasn't trying too.. but I can see why 1 would think that
Control of what or who? Is it control of oneself? That makes sense. Control of one’s environment? That makes sense if the environment intrudes on one’s own control of self. Control of others? Only if others might interfere or are interfering with one’s own environment and self. Others are part of the environment and the environment is part of the embryonic fluid one is in. Or is it that one wants to control others for the fun of it regardless of the interference on one’s own autonomy. There may be different types of PDAers.
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! We need more training on pda. I need it and the professionals and behavioral health world needs to know more. My 8 year old needs better services and strategies that will actually help him. When I try talking about pda with professionals I get a vague sort of dismissal. Please respond to this post if anyone can give me an idea of where to start. The 10min mark on to about 20min mark describe my sons episodes exactly.
My 4yo is sleeping next to me and I'd like to (but not going to) wake him.up ans hug him bc all the traits you deacribed are within him and he's been jokingly described to "either become.a lawyer or a bouncer" when he's grown bc he either bargains or just scolds us and tries to get his way with us. But then again there're SO many instances each day when he complies to live's and parents' demandes which visibly costs him so much effort. And I love him for trying to fit in and "be good". And he loves us for getting out of his way when his "troll persona" is at the helm. It'll be a good excercise for us parents not to have any expectations but to enjoy what his inherent motivation will give us.
Amazing. I'm now going own a rabbit hole for info on differences between PDA ers who are socialized female vs male and also late diagnosed. I believe the presentations can be significantly different.
Great talk! I just saw a doctor today and I'm about to fill a form (at home) about autism assessment. I think I have PDA and I recognize in myself many of the behaviors mentioned here. It's also helpful, even though a bit distrurbing, to learn that it isn't yet universaly recognized condition. I better focus more on my other autistic traits, like routines, counting things, difficulties in communication and sicial enxiety, and less (but not avoid) on delays, missing deadlines, avoidance and excuses, to describe in the form.
He sounds like he is talking about ODD under the guise of PDA, and mixing ODD and PDA - not PDA alone in and of itself, because he does not mention the anxiety, fear, pain and negative emotions component.
same. i cried when he said the child feels like " i cant go to that horrible place (school) or I will die" that really hit home because I decided to homeschool my 5 year old and that is basically what she told me when I asked her why she didn't want to go to the local school. she said " I don't want to go because I'm I want to stay with you and *sibling* because I love you and I will be sad and cry all day and I will miss you".
This is a really helpful presentation, but would be even more helpful if the slides were available somewhere. If someone knows of a link to them, I would be so appreciative if they could post it. Thank you.
My brother owns his ADHD, though isn't treated, but in reality this PDA is much, much closer to how life with him is. My therapist says its bipolar, but that is based on nothing. This describes my brother so perfectly I don't even know what to do with myself. I am so full of hatred for how this destroys our family. I work very hard not to feel this, and to always come fresh to him with acceptance and carefulness. But honestly? How can this be? It's so abusive to others. Are you just not responsible for your actions then? Then how do others begin to process that a person is not responsible for their behavior? All the things, therapists Alanon, say you have to expect people to be responsible for their own behavior. Sorry for ranting. He's again made up total delusions that are so destructive just to not make one phone call. It's beyond. Like the phone call would take five minutes and instead he's causing literally generations of harm.
@@desireegreen653”generations” of any thing is such a lengthy and heavy responsibility to put on a single individual no matter what they “own” or identify as. How exactly is he the sole cause of “literal harm?” Ask your therapist to answer that too then type that out since you rely on another person who then relies on a made-up system to make your reality make sense to you.
@@Maris222 you should meet him. I hear you're mad, but humans rely on each other, it's called being social. The decisions of parents do affect generations of people. That's is how reality works. Sorry to broadcast my pain on the internet it's totally inappropriate. To hear the speaker's inner requirements/demands of others is just really hard. Hard for him, and very hard for others. I haven't found any therapist who really understand this PDA thing, like people don't believe it. I don't think it's in DSM, but it perfectly is the thing it is.
@@desireegreen653its from a childhood of not being able to have any choice or say in anything you do, even little things are demanded of you no matter how you feel or want. It is very hard to deal with it specially being misdiagnosed or if physical force is introduced..
22:45 I have learned to explain to my friends, that actively caring for me in one of these situations is a way of asking for my attention. And that it comes across as insensitive, and even rude. Some people just don't know how to be invisible, as an act of love or respect. I am really getting a lot out of this.
I always felt so bad "gathering" all the info, reading people and knowing how I can talk to them and "control" what not to bring up, how to manipulate the conversation so I don't end up being asked to do something, etc. Especially the times of breakdowns... I still feel bad, but in the end I can't stop because I HAVE to be vigilant. All this time I didn't even want to think because of all the "psychopath" stories, and how badly it's portrayed, and how even "manipulation" is always viewed as bad. Now I actually can see it as a part of me that just protects me. A fairy godmother I didn't really expect to work this way.
Wow! This guy doesn’t sound like any PDAs I know, including myself. We literally hate rejection and will go out of our way to “please.” This guy sounds like he has some psychopathy.
This guy is talking about a more externalised presentation of PDA, and it sounds like it was safe for him to do so. He might not of mentioned in the video, but a PDAer will feel so much empathy after a trigger caused them to behave in such ways. There is also internalised PDA with more flight, freeze and fawn behaviours. People pleasing is a trauma response. If a PDAer also suffers from RSD, that may also affect what type of avoidance it triggered.
you don't sound like any PDA I know. You probably just have autism classic with some demand avoidance and are conflating that wiht the pda-profile. also the pleasing sounds like it could be c-ptsd. PDA would much rather be rejected for being themselves, then comply with demands in order to fit in.
Important to point out that if you've met one PDAer you've met one PDAer. I dispute the use of the word "we" here especially in the context of the "cuddly psychopath" theory - not all PDAers will employ these strategies, there are other strategies
Man this gave me answers which I was looking for my whole life... I always thought why even if I love my gf soo much but when she asks me to do something I can never say yes but do that thing in slight difference that why for me I feel in control and make her somewhat happy also.😢
11:25 that doesn't sound like love.. i'm not sure if this is a self aware charming joke or not tbh . My mother is textbook and culturally enabled PDA.. the irrational need for control that she obviously cannot change is terrifying for a child who has to depend on that person
Myself and my eldest daughter have PDA and my youngest has classic autism with some demand avoidance, our house is a riot 🤣 we love one another, as granted me being the adult has to not be reactive where I wish to be, but there is real love, I can’t say it’s the same as a neurotypical persons ideation of love though.
@jantelopez5626 I imagine it was. So sorry you had to go through that. Hope you have someone (friend or professional) to process that with. I'm just learning about PDA and I'm still pretty skeptical about it if it's what is described here. What's described in this talk sounds more like sociopathy or narcissism...which both are due to a need for control, sometimes because of abuse as children and sometimes not. People are complicated. It's not that I don't feel for those struggling with these issues, but I wonder if talks like these might be confusing for those who are dealing with possible sociopathic behaviors from family members.
665th like. someone like this vid quick. seriosuly though we PDA'ers are true children of Satan. and I mean that in a positive way. , like in the Miltonian/Blakean/Death Metal sense of Satan as the ur-symbol of demand avoidance. "Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" As a pda'er i've come to the realization i can't work a regular job and have to freelance.
Hi urgent question to anyone out there. Do you ALSO avoid demanding /asking things of others? This could be a missing piece in my jigsaw. Why I can be a rebel without a cause or even a clue.
> Do you ALSO avoid demanding /asking things of others? I do. I feel sick to my stomach when I think about asking someone for help, even in life-threatening situations (e.g. being homeless). The destructiveness of competition teaches us to think of everyone as potential obstacles to our own success. > Why I can be a rebel without a cause or even a clue. I sometimes wonder if what we call 'rebellion' is nature's way of fighting back. I speculate that the so-called rise of 'autism' is nature's expression that something is terrible wrong on Earth, and needs to change. Try thinking of 'being a rebel' as a pool of energy, and begin looking for a structure (mental framework) for expressing that energy. I can recommend Alfie Kohn's "No Contest" as a start. And if you want to be a hardcore rebel, try Alfred Korzybski's "Science and Sanity".
There is crossover. A term Subacute Secondary Narcissim could apply. There are health issues that does not allow the individual to develop and grow naturally, leaving them stuck at a younger developmental age neuro physiologically. Hence secondary narcissism.
That's what I was feeling. It seems really hard to find the line, as I've seen people exploring the concept of autism and NPD and how they can be confused.
it sounds like elements of many cluster b personality disorders, because it shares them. but nah, its not. Actually just was dealing with a fellow autist who is a comorbid covert narc, and they are very unlike PDA profile. He has some demand avoidance, but definitely definitely not the all pervasive need for autonomy that pda profile autists have. And he has no real interest in other people, and he doesn't have much ability to manipulate because he doesn't understand people very well. When I realized that his speech patterns weren't just a lack of social ability but genuinely identical with those of a narcissist (only responds or even processes information that is relevant to him - like talking to a wall), it was pretty easy to level him into a state of narcissistic mortification by pointing out those speech patterns to him, to the point where he blocked me on all social media channels. PDA autists are not that emotionally fragile, nor do we have the absymal emptiness inside of a true narcissist. Though we can absolutely act in a way that seems very much like a psychopath or other cluster-b personality disorder during a meltdown when our sense of autonomy is under severe threat. But otherwise we feel genuine empath, and often a tremendous sense of guilt for our actions during the meltdown.
@@adrianopper9472 I felt that way too for a while. You can't always tell immediately, its really a pattern. Sometimes autism/adhd speech patterns may resemble those of a narcissist, but only sometimes. When you have dealt with someone awhile and they never stray from the pattern of only responding to information that is somehow relevant to them, and you constantly feel like they haven't actually heard anything you said, or even try/care to listen, you can pretty much rest assured they are a narcissist and not just autistic. It took me literally calling this person a narcissist once, then apologizing and backtracking cause I excused the behavior as a facet of his autism, only to have enough conversations with them to realize, nah, i was right the first time. He had demand avoidance, but not the true pda profile, much less socially skilled than I am so I was more inclined to interpret his behavior through the lens of autism, whereas with a true pda profile we are generally more skillful in social situations but there is a lack of depth to many of our skills, hence so when we do cause hurt or offense through a breech of some social protocol you might be more likely to assume that we actually were capable of doing better in that instance and just chose not to.
But he doesn't explain how to team up with the PDA. He just said you find success through doing it, and gives us dozens of methods that don't work. But never told us of a method that does. He just said team up with it so you're both saying yes
Sorry, but I am really struggling to understand the point you are trying to make in this presentation. Basically, what you are saying is: "Unless the person who has a PDA is determining the agenda and controlling the choices and not having to comply with social expectations, their parents and everyone else around them should expect resistance and defiance". However, where does this leave the caregiver of a child who does not want to comply with demands that are essential for the safety and maintenance of their health? For example, how do you support a child who refuses to shower, brush their feet, wear a seatbelt, to take medicine for severe diabetes? Should you just let them go ahead and do whatever they want? What are you suggesting that should be done in such situations? In other words, in your presentation, you explained what a PDA is. However, you did not provide any clear guidance about what caregivers and parents should do to support children with PDA. Has any intervention been helpful to you? By the way, you did a very good job at complying with the demands and expectations related to being a speaker at this event, which tells me you have learned how to cope with demands throughout your development. Has anything helped in this process?
Hi PDAer here. I recommend researching the low demand / low arousal approach. Neurodivergent Insights has a good write up on low demand / arousal. The essentials like teeth brushing and medication are much easier for us PDAers when the majority of the barriers to our well being needs are removed or minimailized. Unschooling or a democratic (student led) Learning environment makes the biggest difference in my experience.
Does anyone have a pda kid, with dangerous behavior towards animals, and how do you deal with that? Does anyone know what a good school program would be for a child like that? He’s currently in a specialized environment, but is highly of in social skills, or rather highly “manipulative” in a concerning matter… He has atypical development, high functioning in some areas and low in others.. he is regulated daily as good as possible with balanced stimuli… what more can be done?
the bit about role playing being a stim.. i see some weird attention seeking comments on youtube that obviously are someone pretending they are someone else over inconsequential stuff and i wonder if its a stim too? also some catfishing makes no sense at all and on that catfish programme.. sometimes the catfish shows no remorse nor reason .. maybe its PDA ?
This man just helped me answer what I’ve been trying to figure out my entire life. I felt like there was a darkness to me and that deep down I was a horrible human being. A huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and I now I can research and get help to learn how to be more one with it. I don’t know if he’ll read this but if he does- you changed my life. Thank you. ❤️
This, this, and so much this.
I just found out about this archetype today and I literally texted my sister “There’s like tons of resources for me which makes me sad cus I thought I wasn’t a nice person when push really came to shove” 😭😭
Me too, at age 49 1/2. We should come with instruction manuals. ❤ 🫂
I thought this darkness was my bpd😅 im not even sure if i have bpd but i know i have pda
You're still lazy, though.
This is an absolutely fantastic personal perspective of PDA. Thank you so much!
This is brilliant. Should be compulsory viewing for doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers and teachers and of course families who need it.
Thank you so much.
Today is the first day I am hearing this term. I want to fucking SCREAM. I am 41 and I won’t even wear makeup because of the expectation. Nothing in my life is untouched by this. My finances, relationships, money management- all of it. I need it to stop!!!!!
This is the best video I've ever seen on the internet to help me understand my own internal processes that sometimes worry me b/c they're so automatic yet so enigmatic. Thank you so much.
My brother was diagnosed with this at the very beginning of lockdown. it's really difficult for us as a family to handle his instability but having a label now, i can find helpful videos like these and they help so much
I am so jealous of your ability and willingness to be there for your brother and to research and gain an understanding of this… my family doesn’t believe in PDA, has refused to research it, and has refused to offer help - financial and emotional support are terrible things to lack as a PDA person, and I feel completely out of control having begged for and received next to no understanding or assistance in my daily, maddening struggles to do the “simplest” things.
@@caitlinroseblaney226 Yeah, when I tell my mother I might need help, cause I'm missing deadlines beyond my control, she thinks I should deal with it on my own (which I've been saying to myself as well, but things are getting out of control). She was always adverse to the idea that there might be something different with me and ignored the hints of other people. But I don't blame her, her life has been very hard too. I hope I'll get official diagnose soon, now at 39...
Accomodating his needs will have a profound effect on him.
I have PDA, and have tested the “I can’t” concept with demands thoroughly. They aren’t kidding, the body actually shuts down physically. For me, if I willpower myself brutally hard enough to follow through with a demand I really don’t want to do, I can reach a point where I will uncontrollably start laughing hysterically. It is so bad and constant that my entire body convulses like I’m having a seizure, and I will keep laughing hysterically for potentially hours, with no successful way to stop it myself. Sometimes, I faint from hypoxia, because I literally can’t breath. Also, once I hit that breaking point, nothing can be done. Taking away the demand does nothing. It is as if something snaps. There is no anxiety of dying, or a conscious desire for control. It is just a not wanting to do something so intensely brutally badly, and it being just so uncomfortable (but not painful), that it makes you laugh, convulse, and faint if pushed to hard. They aren’t kidding about “I can’t”. I have not solved this either, it is as fundamental as a physiological pathology, like an autoimmune disease, or a severe mental illness. Your body just does what it does, it just functions the way you expect, or it doesn’t.
This has given me goosebumps as a mother to a PDA child and finally getting the aha moment
Thank you for raising awareness of PDA because it's so hard to deal with. I'm on a two week sleep study which is supposed to be monitoring how much I sleep, which is usually 16-18 hours a day... During the study, I've achieved more in the garden, crafting, and tidying the house, than I have in the last two months, and my average sleep during the study is about 10 hours a day because I'm *supposed* to be letting myself sleep, so obviously I have to do anything BUT sleep! I'm now watching this, instead of sleeping! #facepalm
Wow, I had a very similar issue! Towards the end of college (2018), I started sleeping about 16 hours a day and would even have days once or twice a year where I would sleep more than 24 hours straight with the exception of using the bathroom (but even that would happen in a stupor that I didn't remember). I've been struggling ever since and have been seeing sleep neurologists and various other doctors. They think it's either idiopathic hypersomnia or type 2 narcolepsy, but when I had an overnight sleep study, they had to end it early (without the daytime MSLT portion) because I barely slept at all during the nighttime portion. Of course when I got home I crashed and slept for 20 hours.
Unfortunately, I lost my insurance shortly after cause I aged out of my parents plan, and I'm going on two years without approval for my disability application, so I can't redo the sleep study at this point (I should mention that I live in the US where my country would rather I die than give me healthcare so long as I cannot give them immediate profit).
I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to find someone experiencing similar things. I wonder if there could be a relationship between PDA and whatever sleep issue(s) we have. Do you mind if I ask how you are doing now 9 months later? Particularly with the excessive sleeping?
My son was diagnosed with autism at age 4, but as he's gotten older (he's 8 now) autism seems to describe his challenges less and less. Finally a therapist suggested PDA to us, which was an epiphany. Everything with him is a negotiation; he NEEDS to feel like he is getting a fair deal out of any situation. It can never just be "because I told you so." Also, softening demand is such a huge thing. When we get ready for school I don't tell him it's time to put on clothes. Instead I tell him his clothes are sitting on the floor and I'm going upstairs (he will not put them on if I'm in the room because then it's like I won). It can certainly be a huge challenge and what I describe as mental warfare to some people lol.
My child is the same with dressing for school. Plus he has to hide once dressed and jump out and scare me when I come into the room. PDA has finally explained his behaviours.
Yes! My 8 year old will not wear the socks I matched, even though he is looking for matcged socks, because I told him where they are or I tried to hand them to him. He will instead wear unmatched dirty socks and even clothes that are dirty when there are clean ones available simpky because I pointed out that there are clean clothes available. It is so difficult. I purposefully ignore him just so he will get ready(in some form) in the morning. I can tell his siblings to get their shoes on as a que that we are going to leave, but not him.
@@melinapeartree I totally feel what you're going through. It often feels like my son is trying to spite me when he does things like your son is doing with the socks. He just HAS to do it differently than I want him to. And when his mind is set on something it's almost like it's stuck. I hope you're able to get some sort of help with your son. Here in the US we basically have no support for PDA and we're going through a really rough patch right now in our house.
If you are neurotypical yourself, or subconsciously aligning your actions and speech to conform with a neurotypical environment over a significant portion of your life unrecognised, the information you present in the initial request may not fulfill that which the autistic individual you're interacting with requires to make decisions. When questions follow, that can be genuinely trying to find out enough for the task to be completed as intended, and for the motives behind it and the logic of said course of action to be understood. "Because I told you so" doesn't convey any valuable information to the situation or elaborate on what is needed for complete understanding in both parties for the situation. Autistic individuals can approach, or simply not see, hierarchy in completing tasks, so there may not be any understanding of the neurotypical parent child relationship where the parent dictates the actions most of the time, and this extends to teachers, older pupils in hall monitor or prefect positions, bosses and more experienced/older colleagues in work places, etc. There's a natural instinct to negotiate at the same level regardless of who they're interacting with, and this can extend to very young children too.
A PDA-esk appearance could result from the autistic individual observing decisions being made that don't make sense to them or don't seem logical or the best way to do the task(s) to them. If this repeats enough, without clarification on the decision making process followed at the time, the autistic individual could then resist the individual presenting the demand/requirements to them if they don't explain thoroughly their reasoning, the purposes, etc behind that decision. Presenting the information that leads to you concluding 'clothes need to be put on to go to xxxxx' so they can conclude the same may lead to better understanding.
I'm going to try to logic through why school uniforms are important now. Unspoken socially accepted/expected stuff should be avoided when asking 'why' leads to 'that's just how it is'. Leaving the house without any clothes on is inappropriate, why, because people see it as indecent, why....(circling a vague point with nothing to really pinpoint). Instead, set out logical stuff that can be more commonly accepted across different brain types. Why wear clothes to leave the house? To regulate temperature, prevent sun burn, keep dry, etc, be generally prepared for varying predictable weather and temperature conditions throughout the day. Why wear specific clothing, aka, a uniform? So that staff at the school can quickly identify you as a student form a distance, people you interact with can know where you're going to in the morning if you were to get lost (my overthinking might be the reasoning behind that one). Why are there non-uniform days if the uniform is important? They understand the uniform can be more uncomfortable than other clothing types so occasionally, on a day with more predictable student movement, they enable students to have a more comfortable day. Why are uniforms not just made of the comfortable clothes? To be harder wearing for regular use and to be worn for hours at a time up to 5 days a week for almost a full year at a time, and to ensure their design stands out from the more common comfortable designs of clothing. Why wear clean clothes? To prevent illness over time, make enclosed gathering spaces more habitable than dirty and potentially smelly clothing would make them.
I understand this isn't your comment (I'm just replying to the main comment in the hope the other replies see it too), but the reply mentioning pairing socks. Although it might take more time, perhaps involve them in the decision for you to pair them on their behalf, or leave the unpaired socks in a basket for them to choose from, or involve them in the process so they can gain their own understanding of how it works and how accepting help from others to complete tasks is a good thing/logical decision. If they feel they've been involved in delegating you to pair socks like they like, then they could potentially experience that as them making the decision. Like mentioned before, have a discussion on why clean clothes are better to wear, but ask the questions and enable them to discover the reasons themselves, then lead into asking if they'd prefer you to wash their clothes, or offer the option for them to wash their clothes themselves, and you can help if they decide they need it type thing. Also talk through the steps, by asking them to fill them in, of why clean clothes should be stored in a wardrobe, drawers, etc, they're relatively sealed to keep them cleaner for longer, they'd get dirtier much quicker if on the floor, would be a trip hazard, would take up space they could use for other things if just piled next to/on the bed, etc.
The only thing with clothing, choosing dirty stuff over clean and similar. Ensure they aren't avoiding certain things due to the sensation of the clothing, how it feels. Does a tag itch their neck, does a seem in socks or other clothing rub their skin in an uncomfortable way, do clean clothes have a different texture or overwhelming scent to them that make them less appealing? I've watched some other videos that suggest children can find it difficult to explain this type of thing, so you'd need to give them the words in the questions to be able to answer them. If they observe that no one else appears to have issues with clothing, they may assume it's normal to be very uncomfortable, until they get overwhelmed by it and then simply can't deal with it anymore. Certain things can be amplified for autisitc individuals, so were you might think you feel a seem or label and think it's bearable, but to an autistic individual that same degree of contact is overwhelming. You could place a lego piece or similar on a table your sitting at and lean your hand on it, potentially with a good portion of your seated upper body weight on it, not comfortably, but you could stay like that for minutes, in a way you couldn't if you stood up then leaned on it with your whole bodyweight. To an autistic individual placing their hand on that lego piece while sitting at the table could be experienced at the same level as you standing and placing your full weight on it, even though there isn't the same physical affects of putting a lot of weight on something that shape, so things that are simply noticeable by a neurotypical or other individual with a lower/average/'normal' level of sensitivity (not excluding other autistic individuals) could already be being experienced at an unbearable level for an autistic individual.
The more I look into autism, the crazier the complexity of it gets. A recent video describes how it's like an iceberg, and even what one autistic person can relate to or see in another autistic person is a second iceberg in itself. I find just navigating what various autistic individuals prefer to refer to it as as a constantly moving minefield, and I feel the titles, etc, depending on their experiences, can have an amplified significance, positive and negative by the nature of some autistic characteristics.
I paused very early, he covered a lot of my other reply.
the description of the defense system and how it drives the PDA part to mute all empathetic behavior and then once the threat is over, empathy comes back is so on point.
Where have you seen this? I think I know someone who does this
Demands of self care... omg
This has helped so much to understand four generations of our family. Thank you!
Wow, this explains much. I was a peculiar/odd child. When my child was diagnosed with PDD/NOS it let to my Autism Diagnosis which explained a lot. But this is a game changer. After 56 years of hating myself for my inability to do what I needed to do (even when I really wanted to do it) here is an explanation. Thank you so much for posting this. Not much is known about PDA here in the USA, my mental health professional and I will have to learn about this together.
This was magnificent, truly!! My son is autistic with a pda profile...this has been so helpful!!
Fascinating. This is a cogent presentation with concise explanations. You have made this information so much more relatable by speaking from personal experience. I relate to your decision-making process in your youth pretty much in its entirety. "What authority? Show me..." =D
I realized recently that my PDA used to manifest when I played competitive tennis in my youth. I was known to "choke" or throw away my lead when I was ahead, thereby sabotaging my own progress. During this time, as a reaction to my frustration at losing what looked like an unassailable lead, I would start smashing my tennis rackets; by the end of the match my racket(s) would be eviscerated, and I would have lost, often just 'giving up' when I lost my cool, not being able to commit my mind to focus on winning, and putting in a half-assed performance before my opponent even caught up to my score, let alone take the lead - I would practically hand the win to them by self-destructing on court.
Interestingly enough, this only happened in critical, final-stage matches, or in earlier rounds if/when I was faced with an opponent I was expected to defeat easily.
In hindsight, the phenomenon they call "choking", for me, was simply a manifestation of PDA. Understanding even just this one instance of its manifestation has changed my life; it has enabled me give answer to some of my most perplexing (mis)behaviour in my youth and young adulthood.
Thank you for writing your book!
No one in my area of the US even knows this exists. How in the world can I get help for my son when it doesn’t even exist in my part of the world.
I realised recently that I might have PDA, this video is highly relatable aside from the precise way it's described. Like the 'other side' of you that appears for example, I don't see that side of me as lacking empathy or cruel. I'd rather describe it as a fight response within the system where you suddenly stop seeing a person you love as a person but rather a threat. I haven't responded in that way for a long time, most likely due to the fact that I have harbored good self control/regulation skills and since I'm good at hiding negative aspects due to abuse I experienced in the past, which was triggered by my responses. Going to school has been a huge barrier in my life. As a kid I would have fits when woken up and I'd refuse to clothe myself or get put of bed. Back then I would use any strategy possible to not go including faking sick, yelling, refusing to move or speak, guilt tripping, etc. But I don't recall any abusive behaviour from myself for a long time since I worked on myself. Most of my demand avoidance today is subconscious and something which causes psychological damage to myself, like I often wait until the last moment to go which makes me late or I'll lie to myself that I'm sick. It's extremely difficult to cope with, but knowing what causes this helps a lot. I know to not push myself since I'll only end up stuck, I've noticed that following instinct like hunger helps me wake up early rather than forcing myself out of bed. Okay rant over bye lol
I’m a last minute person too. To me that wasn’t a rant but really helpful thanks.
Yup, that's me. Took me more than 40 years to clock it. I wish I had that framework to understand my behaviour earlier, would've spared me a lot of grief.
This guy has educated me. As a result 4 little humans may just grow up with less trauma and an ounce of self esteem. I hope he sees this commebt one dayeven though he'll be cringed out!
I relate really strongly to the anxious demand avoidance thing, and yes I need to be in control, because the prospect of being unable to meet a demand, the prospect of failure, is *terrifying* , but I would never dream of attempting to manipulate or control others. I absolutely don't keep lists of people's weaknesses. I'd never ever ever ever use something like that against people. There is no 'dark center' to my personality. Christ I'm not evil.
Honestly I think this is a p!ss-poor attempt at showing people the insides of PDA'ers minds. It's accurate to some people, probably, but this weird evil sh!t can't be everyone with PDA. To me it seems like all this does is increase villification, not actual understanding. You didn't even manage to convey that this is about fear, anxiety and a lack of confidence in one's ability to function as expected first and foremost.
No I haven't somehow mastered neurotypical empathy in order to manipulate? What? That's not something you can just choose to do. I have heaps of empathy and care for the people of the world, it's just hard for me to instinctively relate to and understand neurotypicals. That is how most aut!stic people's empathy works.
When a demand that is too much for me persists, all that happens is that I get a panic attack/meltdown (=uncontrollable sobbing for me)/su!cidal intent, probably all at once. It all turns inwards, not outwards. I wouldn't harm a fly. My ability to love and care does not go anywhere. That is always there. I'll probably just feel extreme amounts of guilt and shame and hopelessness for letting you down and being a burden and not being able to explain why. I feel guilty, because falling apart *feels* like manipulation because it does get people to give me a break, even though I'm not in control of it happening. But no holy heck I've never made another person cry in one of these instances, all that happens is that they want to hug me until I'm better, without immediately asking what's wrong, and while I'm not a fan of hugging, this is pretty close to what I need in a moment like that.
Yes I mask (A LOT) and I show different people different true aspects of myself, shards, but that's because I don't want to be rejected, and not because I'm looking to misrepresent what I am or to manipulate the people around me. I'm just intimately familiar with what it's like to be rejected by everyone around you, and not willing to go through that again, so I'll sacrifice my personhood for your comfort around me.
When someone asks me to do something, yes the first thing I do is say 'no', but then I still do it. Maybe I'll wait half an hour, so that it's MY choice, maybe I hand over the butter at the same moment as the word 'no' leaves my mouth, but I do it. Unless it's a big thing that's too overwhelming, like finding a job or finishing a thesis, then I try as hard as I can but anxiety overtakes me and I have to stop to bring the anxiety back down to non-su!cidal levels.
Yes I'm more comfortable in roleplaying and fantasy than in life, and yes the extent to which I obsess over D&D and stories (both ones I make in my head and external ones) is a problem. My special interests are pretty typical for an aut!stic person I'd say. I'm as resistant to change as your average aut!stic. I've never been boisterous or difficult or anything ADHD-adjacent, no disrespecting authority (outwardly anyways). I just feel like this guy is generalizing his own experiences to a group of people that is probably a lot more diverse than is presented here.
Maybe this whole PDA thing just isn't as applicable to myself as I thought, but then again, the demand avoidance part resonates so hard that it's probably the biggest problem in my life. Why else would I be unable to meet demands to do things that I desperately want to do?
Maybe the darkness only develops when PDA'ers get pushed too hard, don't get listened to, don't get granted agency, and so they need to develop these defense mechanisms that I didn't need.
As a counter-anecdote to the 'time to put your coat on' line, my parents deliberately always phrased things like 'do you want to put your coat on inside out or upside down?' (that's an actual example) and then the answer would be a stubborn 'inside out!' Everyone wins. If my answer was 'no', my parents would be like 'okay well I'll let you bang your head into a wall then, you'll see for yourself.' My parents never did the 'because I said so' thing, because that didn't work. They learned really quickly that explaining precise reasoning as to why things had to happen was the way to go. Then I could make the decision of whether I agreed they should happen.
Thank you! The agonising about offending/upsetting/confusing others is so intense.
One thing to consider is that you may be unaware how much pain you cause other people, and how subconsciously to manipulate people, finding their weaknesses to avoid demands.
@@intersection5664 Are you for real right now? You know nothing about me and you accuse me of that sh!t? The assumption that PDA'ers are evil is that strong huh?
Hey have you heard of Freud, Karl Popper and falsification theory? Freud was also convinced that if his theories didn't fit someone, then that person must just either be lying, or the effect must be subconscious. Either way, no matter what his patients said or did, the theories he cooked up were always correct. They were not falsifiable.
And that's why his theory was horse-sh!t, according to Popper and then the entire scientific community. You'll learn this if you go to any university, any major. Philosophy of science is a mandatory subject for everyone. At least it is where I'm from.
I didn’t read your whole comment, but I ABSOLUTELY agree that while I have an inner protector that becomes “big” when I am made to feel insignificant, abused, and small / bad by constant demands, I definitely DO NOT keep an inner list of people’s weaknesses or “Achilles’ heels”.
So I agree that while that might very well apply to SOME people with PDA, nobody should assume that it is anywhere near true of all of us.
If anything, it seems more like everyone knows MY weaknesses and uses them against me, but I don’t use theirs and wouldn’t want to even if I could spot them and use them. Nothing against Harry - as I know how difficult survival is in this world for PDA people like us - but that is absolutely not me at all, and I’m sure by logical extension that many others with PDA don’t do that as well.
@@intersection5664 Honestly, as an autistic person I find that a huge difficulty of mine is with reading people at all - never mind being able to look for or pinpoint their weaknesses, so I don’t think that I’m subconsciously or consciously using their weaknesses against them - nevermind doing that intentionally when I’m triggered by their demands.
@24:30 my son refused to put on trousers when I was thick with snow outside, so I caved and let him stubbornly stand outside in it (for almost a solid minute, because I'd told him he definitely needed trousers and he was adamant he did NOT 😅) until he chose to ask for them. That whole thing makes sense now
This is so painfully *not* the universal PDA experience. The way he’s generalizing “we” and “our” is extremely dangerous for those of us who need neurotypicals to stop stigmatizing, othering, and vilifying us. I thought this might teach me how to describe it better, instead now I’m terrified for any young PDAers whose parents find this and take it as objective truth.
or maybe you don't have pda-profile? just PDA as a trait.
I thought that perhaps a child with a parent who is aware of the PDA and accommodates for that may struggle less as an adult. Maybe.
I strongly agree. As with autism there isn't a "universal experience" of PDA. It effects individuals differently depending on their personalities and circumstances.
Omg he's just completely described my youngest. This has made everything just fall into place.
Time stamps for myself
10:59 - social obsessions over topics
11:30 hyper vigilance in case there’s a demand
12:39 behaving in “psychopathic” ways
15:09 the emotional empathy goes away, explaining why i stop seeing people as people i love and care about, and i’m not myself anymore, using any means necessary to regain my sense of control … damn. yep.
17:45 feels as thought we didn’t do it. god damn. this explains so much of my life.
31:33 needing to actually experience why we can or can’t do something. my dad has complained about me being like this my whole life
This person describes PDAers as Machiavellians. I just discover that I have this profile, but this Dark Passenger that he mentions, that is simply not me. That doesn't exist. I rationalize everything.
Wouldn't you do things as kid, which you know will annoy your parents, just to see them being annoyed?
@@ConnoisseurOfExistenceyes but I wouldn't call that evil if anything its a sense of control, or a fight and flight reaction to having your autonomy taking away.. at the very least you may think they are understanding how you are feeling at that time to make them empathetic.. just answering for him in my experience.. the one thing I was good at was getting people mad at me even if I wasn't trying too.. but I can see why 1 would think that
This was brilliant Thankyou
Control of what or who? Is it control of oneself? That makes sense. Control of one’s environment? That makes sense if the environment intrudes on one’s own control of self. Control of others? Only if others might interfere or are interfering with one’s own environment and self. Others are part of the environment and the environment is part of the embryonic fluid one is in. Or is it that one wants to control others for the fun of it regardless of the interference on one’s own autonomy. There may be different types of PDAers.
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!
We need more training on pda. I need it and the professionals and behavioral health world needs to know more. My 8 year old needs better services and strategies that will actually help him. When I try talking about pda with professionals I get a vague sort of dismissal. Please respond to this post if anyone can give me an idea of where to start. The 10min mark on to about 20min mark describe my sons episodes exactly.
My 4yo is sleeping next to me and I'd like to (but not going to) wake him.up ans hug him bc all the traits you deacribed are within him and he's been jokingly described to "either become.a lawyer or a bouncer" when he's grown bc he either bargains or just scolds us and tries to get his way with us. But then again there're SO many instances each day when he complies to live's and parents' demandes which visibly costs him so much effort. And I love him for trying to fit in and "be good". And he loves us for getting out of his way when his "troll persona" is at the helm.
It'll be a good excercise for us parents not to have any expectations but to enjoy what his inherent motivation will give us.
Amazing. I'm now going own a rabbit hole for info on differences between PDA ers who are socialized female vs male and also late diagnosed. I believe the presentations can be significantly different.
Bravo! This man explained my trisomy flavored Asperger's. I bet a lot of us 47,XXY men have PDA!!
Great talk! I just saw a doctor today and I'm about to fill a form (at home) about autism assessment. I think I have PDA and I recognize in myself many of the behaviors mentioned here. It's also helpful, even though a bit distrurbing, to learn that it isn't yet universaly recognized condition. I better focus more on my other autistic traits, like routines, counting things, difficulties in communication and sicial enxiety, and less (but not avoid) on delays, missing deadlines, avoidance and excuses, to describe in the form.
Great use of imagery within Harry's spoken delivery.
He sounds like he is talking about ODD under the guise of PDA, and mixing ODD and PDA - not PDA alone in and of itself, because he does not mention the anxiety, fear, pain and negative emotions component.
Ah, I was thinking the same
This made me cry because I understand even more how much internal struggle my child has.
same. i cried when he said the child feels like " i cant go to that horrible place (school) or I will die" that really hit home because I decided to homeschool my 5 year old and that is basically what she told me when I asked her why she didn't want to go to the local school. she said " I don't want to go because I'm I want to stay with you and *sibling* because I love you and I will be sad and cry all day and I will miss you".
This is a really helpful presentation, but would be even more helpful if the slides were available somewhere. If someone knows of a link to them, I would be so appreciative if they could post it. Thank you.
Contact harry, he has his own youtube channel.
Harry Thompson
Thank you.
💯 relate. I bought the book for my parents and myself. I never thought that anyone could explain me.
such a good presentation
I've seen this in my son that deals with CPTSD due to spending many years in an orphanage.
I think trauma and trauma reactions play a huge part in the lives of PDAers.
Amazing explanations and I'm now getting your book on audible
When i force myself to follow through on demands i “can’t” do, i depersonalize and and go crazy basically. Very uncomfortable and dehumanizing
Has anyone considered whether PDA could be a result of/vendiagram/crossover of Autism x ADHD? Not saying thats the cause always. Just curious
Yes actually. It's a somewhat common theory that Harry has brought up before.
My brother owns his ADHD, though isn't treated, but in reality this PDA is much, much closer to how life with him is. My therapist says its bipolar, but that is based on nothing. This describes my brother so perfectly I don't even know what to do with myself. I am so full of hatred for how this destroys our family. I work very hard not to feel this, and to always come fresh to him with acceptance and carefulness. But honestly? How can this be? It's so abusive to others. Are you just not responsible for your actions then? Then how do others begin to process that a person is not responsible for their behavior? All the things, therapists Alanon, say you have to expect people to be responsible for their own behavior. Sorry for ranting. He's again made up total delusions that are so destructive just to not make one phone call. It's beyond. Like the phone call would take five minutes and instead he's causing literally generations of harm.
@@desireegreen653”generations” of any thing is such a lengthy and heavy responsibility to put on a single individual no matter what they “own” or identify as. How exactly is he the sole cause of “literal harm?” Ask your therapist to answer that too then type that out since you rely on another person who then relies on a made-up system to make your reality make sense to you.
@@Maris222 you should meet him. I hear you're mad, but humans rely on each other, it's called being social. The decisions of parents do affect generations of people. That's is how reality works. Sorry to broadcast my pain on the internet it's totally inappropriate. To hear the speaker's inner requirements/demands of others is just really hard. Hard for him, and very hard for others. I haven't found any therapist who really understand this PDA thing, like people don't believe it. I don't think it's in DSM, but it perfectly is the thing it is.
@@desireegreen653its from a childhood of not being able to have any choice or say in anything you do, even little things are demanded of you no matter how you feel or want. It is very hard to deal with it specially being misdiagnosed or if physical force is introduced..
omg lightbulb
My adult son needs to know where I am and what I am doing at all times, but I am the same way. I find mindfulness practice has transformed me.
22:45 I have learned to explain to my friends, that actively caring for me in one of these situations is a way of asking for my attention. And that it comes across as insensitive, and even rude. Some people just don't know how to be invisible, as an act of love or respect.
I am really getting a lot out of this.
"No mother, I prefer room service" lmaoooo I don't know how the audience didn't erupt into laughter there xD
Amazing talk! Thanks! 🎉
I always felt so bad "gathering" all the info, reading people and knowing how I can talk to them and "control" what not to bring up, how to manipulate the conversation so I don't end up being asked to do something, etc. Especially the times of breakdowns... I still feel bad, but in the end I can't stop because I HAVE to be vigilant.
All this time I didn't even want to think because of all the "psychopath" stories, and how badly it's portrayed, and how even "manipulation" is always viewed as bad.
Now I actually can see it as a part of me that just protects me. A fairy godmother I didn't really expect to work this way.
THANK YOU for this!
Wow! This guy doesn’t sound like any PDAs I know, including myself.
We literally hate rejection and will go out of our way to “please.”
This guy sounds like he has some psychopathy.
This guy is talking about a more externalised presentation of PDA, and it sounds like it was safe for him to do so. He might not of mentioned in the video, but a PDAer will feel so much empathy after a trigger caused them to behave in such ways.
There is also internalised PDA with more flight, freeze and fawn behaviours. People pleasing is a trauma response.
If a PDAer also suffers from RSD, that may also affect what type of avoidance it triggered.
He described my 6 yr old Autistic/ADHD/PDA son perfectly. I guess some experience it differently?
you don't sound like any PDA I know. You probably just have autism classic with some demand avoidance and are conflating that wiht the pda-profile. also the pleasing sounds like it could be c-ptsd. PDA would much rather be rejected for being themselves, then comply with demands in order to fit in.
Important to point out that if you've met one PDAer you've met one PDAer. I dispute the use of the word "we" here especially in the context of the "cuddly psychopath" theory - not all PDAers will employ these strategies, there are other strategies
Holy crap!!! This is me to the T. This feels good and bad figuring this out.
18:44 OMG no it wasnt a bit depressing.... You just telled me in every detail what happens with me the last 2 Years ......... I thank you so much
This does not describe my Pda, so do not think this is what all pdaers are like
Just curious, have you received a PDA diagnosis? I personally find it hard to imagine that nothing HT has said is relatable.
This is so me, I'm 49 and finally on the list for an asd assessment, I've suspected for about 15 years and tried to get a referral for the last 7
Man this gave me answers which I was looking for my whole life... I always thought why even if I love my gf soo much but when she asks me to do something I can never say yes but do that thing in slight difference that why for me I feel in control and make her somewhat happy also.😢
11:25 that doesn't sound like love.. i'm not sure if this is a self aware charming joke or not tbh . My mother is textbook and culturally enabled PDA.. the irrational need for control that she obviously cannot change is terrifying for a child who has to depend on that person
Myself and my eldest daughter have PDA and my youngest has classic autism with some demand avoidance, our house is a riot 🤣 we love one another, as granted me being the adult has to not be reactive where I wish to be, but there is real love, I can’t say it’s the same as a neurotypical persons ideation of love though.
@jantelopez5626 I imagine it was. So sorry you had to go through that. Hope you have someone (friend or professional) to process that with. I'm just learning about PDA and I'm still pretty skeptical about it if it's what is described here. What's described in this talk sounds more like sociopathy or narcissism...which both are due to a need for control, sometimes because of abuse as children and sometimes not. People are complicated. It's not that I don't feel for those struggling with these issues, but I wonder if talks like these might be confusing for those who are dealing with possible sociopathic behaviors from family members.
24:18 Re: intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, see Alfie Kohn's "No Contest".
I believe I have this. It is paralyzing sometimes.
Very informative
Cool very cool 😊😊😊
665th like. someone like this vid quick. seriosuly though we PDA'ers are true children of Satan. and I mean that in a positive way. , like in the Miltonian/Blakean/Death Metal sense of Satan as the ur-symbol of demand avoidance. "Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" As a pda'er i've come to the realization i can't work a regular job and have to freelance.
Great video 😊😊😊
Speaker sounds Machiavellian
Yes it is😊😊😊
It all makes sense now.
Hi urgent question to anyone out there. Do you ALSO avoid demanding /asking things of others? This could be a missing piece in my jigsaw. Why I can be a rebel without a cause or even a clue.
> Do you ALSO avoid demanding /asking things of others?
I do. I feel sick to my stomach when I think about asking someone for help, even in life-threatening situations (e.g. being homeless). The destructiveness of competition teaches us to think of everyone as potential obstacles to our own success.
> Why I can be a rebel without a cause or even a clue.
I sometimes wonder if what we call 'rebellion' is nature's way of fighting back. I speculate that the so-called rise of 'autism' is nature's expression that something is terrible wrong on Earth, and needs to change.
Try thinking of 'being a rebel' as a pool of energy, and begin looking for a structure (mental framework) for expressing that energy. I can recommend Alfie Kohn's "No Contest" as a start. And if you want to be a hardcore rebel, try Alfred Korzybski's "Science and Sanity".
@theautismdirectory where can I watch the PowerPoint slides??? And who is this chap? He’s very good!
I’m sorry, but what he is describing sounds a lot like narcissism to me. Tell me I’m wrong?
There is crossover. A term Subacute Secondary Narcissim could apply. There are health issues that does not allow the individual to develop and grow naturally, leaving them stuck at a younger developmental age neuro physiologically. Hence secondary narcissism.
That's what I was feeling. It seems really hard to find the line, as I've seen people exploring the concept of autism and NPD and how they can be confused.
it sounds like elements of many cluster b personality disorders, because it shares them. but nah, its not. Actually just was dealing with a fellow autist who is a comorbid covert narc, and they are very unlike PDA profile. He has some demand avoidance, but definitely definitely not the all pervasive need for autonomy that pda profile autists have. And he has no real interest in other people, and he doesn't have much ability to manipulate because he doesn't understand people very well. When I realized that his speech patterns weren't just a lack of social ability but genuinely identical with those of a narcissist (only responds or even processes information that is relevant to him - like talking to a wall), it was pretty easy to level him into a state of narcissistic mortification by pointing out those speech patterns to him, to the point where he blocked me on all social media channels. PDA autists are not that emotionally fragile, nor do we have the absymal emptiness inside of a true narcissist. Though we can absolutely act in a way that seems very much like a psychopath or other cluster-b personality disorder during a meltdown when our sense of autonomy is under severe threat. But otherwise we feel genuine empath, and often a tremendous sense of guilt for our actions during the meltdown.
@@adrianopper9472 I felt that way too for a while. You can't always tell immediately, its really a pattern. Sometimes autism/adhd speech patterns may resemble those of a narcissist, but only sometimes. When you have dealt with someone awhile and they never stray from the pattern of only responding to information that is somehow relevant to them, and you constantly feel like they haven't actually heard anything you said, or even try/care to listen, you can pretty much rest assured they are a narcissist and not just autistic.
It took me literally calling this person a narcissist once, then apologizing and backtracking cause I excused the behavior as a facet of his autism, only to have enough conversations with them to realize, nah, i was right the first time. He had demand avoidance, but not the true pda profile, much less socially skilled than I am so I was more inclined to interpret his behavior through the lens of autism, whereas with a true pda profile we are generally more skillful in social situations but there is a lack of depth to many of our skills, hence so when we do cause hurt or offense through a breech of some social protocol you might be more likely to assume that we actually were capable of doing better in that instance and just chose not to.
Precisely exactly my daughter.
I have it
Holly fucking polly….. thank you
But he doesn't explain how to team up with the PDA. He just said you find success through doing it, and gives us dozens of methods that don't work. But never told us of a method that does. He just said team up with it so you're both saying yes
Sorry, but I am really struggling to understand the point you are trying to make in this presentation. Basically, what you are saying is: "Unless the person who has a PDA is determining the agenda and controlling the choices and not having to comply with social expectations, their parents and everyone else around them should expect resistance and defiance". However, where does this leave the caregiver of a child who does not want to comply with demands that are essential for the safety and maintenance of their health? For example, how do you support a child who refuses to shower, brush their feet, wear a seatbelt, to take medicine for severe diabetes? Should you just let them go ahead and do whatever they want? What are you suggesting that should be done in such situations? In other words, in your presentation, you explained what a PDA is. However, you did not provide any clear guidance about what caregivers and parents should do to support children with PDA. Has any intervention been helpful to you? By the way, you did a very good job at complying with the demands and expectations related to being a speaker at this event, which tells me you have learned how to cope with demands throughout your development. Has anything helped in this process?
Hi PDAer here. I recommend researching the low demand / low arousal approach. Neurodivergent Insights has a good write up on low demand / arousal. The essentials like teeth brushing and medication are much easier for us PDAers when the majority of the barriers to our well being needs are removed or minimailized. Unschooling or a democratic (student led) Learning environment makes the biggest difference in my experience.
how can i get the powerpoint ?
Fascinating
7:46
Does anyone have a pda kid, with dangerous behavior towards animals, and how do you deal with that?
Does anyone know what a good school program would be for a child like that? He’s currently in a specialized environment, but is highly of in social skills, or rather highly “manipulative” in a concerning matter…
He has atypical development, high functioning in some areas and low in others.. he is regulated daily as good as possible with balanced stimuli… what more can be done?
Deliberate cruelty to animals is not an autism thing. Could be psychopathy. Many serial killers exhibited cruelty to animals as children.
5:57 - you reading this?
LOL, so were basically Batman.
the bit about role playing being a stim.. i see some weird attention seeking comments on youtube that obviously are someone pretending they are someone else over inconsequential stuff and i wonder if its a stim too? also some catfishing makes no sense at all and on that catfish programme.. sometimes the catfish shows no remorse nor reason .. maybe its PDA ?
What about PDA along with an intellectual disability. How does that look?
❤🫂
PDA looks n sounds so closely related to Sociopothy. Its the manipulation for self preservation. The selfish gene! Lol 😂❤❤❤