Destiny 2 Lore - Is the 15th wish a trap that we just walked into? What's in the Fine Print?
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- Опубліковано 16 лип 2024
- Start your new year right with Geologie! Use code BYF100 or head to geolog.ie/BYF100 Destiny 2's Lore and Story from the Season of the Wish tells us how the 15th Wish is going to let us access the Pale Heart of the Traveller. But the 15th Wish was made by Savathun, which means that there's a possibility for all this to be a bit of a trap. Today we're going to examine the possibility for Savathun gaining something from the 15th Wish.
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My personal thought about the Pale Heart is that it's basically the afterlife for guardians and ghosts.I should mention that I also believe it's the Traveler's consciousness, because the Veil was used to enter it.
explains why cayde is there..
but maybe we will be able to walk the land of dead without consequence
@@roobeedooo cayde is there because crow wished he could talk to cayde and apologize. So riven willed cayde into existence
Why is the Witness seeking the afterlife?
@@Rhapsody_ My personal theory is that the Witness wants an absolute end instead of an afterlife. Better question imo is what the Witness has been doing the whole time while we tried to get in.
That’s what I’ve theorized. But, Cayde could just be there because Crow accidentally wished him to come back so he could apologize to Cayde, and say goodbye to the Hunter Vanguard. But, I do love the idea of meeting old Guardian legends, like Radagast, Liu Feng, Fellwinter, the Sunbreakers, Six Cyotes, and other long dead legends. Meeting beside the Coalition in battle, as an army, to confront the Witness. The Traveler could’ve meant for the Garden within it to be their final resting place, but was forced to wake them all to defend the Pale Heart. This would give Giardians hope that they will find each other again after their final deaths, and will always stand guard to protect the Lights and the universe. But, I don’t think Bungie is going that route. Time will tell.
Osiris said that the ley lines don't touch the Veil or Traveler. I can't help but think the bending them to do so, even if for a moment, could have some lasting effects we aren't aware of.
True
I actually dont believe theres any issue with the wish because the wish was never intended for us. Savathuun never expected to lose to us, she expected to win, and to follow the witness herself.
Hence why the portal is only intended for 1, 1 Savathuun
Us using the wish was just 1 of many contingency plans for savathuun.
Yeah, Mara and Osiris have a conversation this season about how so much of their "plan" over the last few years has been improvised on the spot from what information they *did* have, and while Savathun certainly had more information, she's also clearly had at least two instances where things have gone resoundingly off of her rails and she's had to improvise: Her death after the removal of her worm (She was planning on getting the Light at some point, I'm sure, but I don't think she planned for the shard of crystal to the guts), and her defeat at our hands.
She had contingencies in place for the latter (somehow, despite having to make those contingencies without her memories and over the course of, like, a week) but her Wish with Riven was planned *years* in advance. Unless Wish 15 in its entirety was some flavor of contingency, I imagine Savathun's initial plan was to follow the Witness herself and link her Throne World to the Pale Heart as a beachhead essentially.
15th wish is 100% a contingency, if things went her way, the traveler would have been sealed off in the throne world
Not only that, but Savathun wants the witness stopped just as much as we do.
I highly doubt she intended to use the portal herself *to follow the Witness*. She might have intended to be the only one to use the portal IF the Witness was somehow stopped, but I feel she would have planned to have someone else go through and stop the Witness -- why dirty her own hands, why risk herself?
@@The5lacker it would definitely be kinda cheesy for them to go "oh yeah she's sooooooo clever that it was her plan all along!!1!!11!"
I wonder if Savathûn just wants a portal to come and go inside The Traveler. Maybe she knew Riven couldn't do it, but we would be able to. So she crafted the wish for us to steal and do what we were going to do anyway, and then she would just use the new portal that we're making
I was thinking somewhat the same: what if the way can only be travelled if someone holds it open, and Crow can therefore not return unless someone else holds it open from within the Traveler? Someone with a connection to the Light and the power to substitute their will for Mara's connection with Crow? Someone like Savathun?
I agree. Savathun knows how resourceful we can be and limiting the portal to one person forced us to come up with a creative solution to overcome this dilemma. While we are busy stopping the witness in the Pale Heart Savathun could enter and take whatever she wanted without us knowing.
@@ivegonefishing482 or perhaps she is planning to bargain with Mara: allow me to remain inside and you get your brother back
I agree, Savathun is trying to figure out the bridge via us Guardians. She has light and dark knowledge and hinted at strand use in lore. She's using us again to forge a path for her understanding and tactic. Who knows what the end goal would be though.
Possible but surely the vanguard and coalition would have the portal heavily defended. Though savathun can be sneaky
The line from Riven that concerned me is what she said to the Guardian while entering the Last Wish raid area: "May it bring you everything you deserve." This sounds too similar to the Chinese curse :"May you live through in times."
Riven treats the guardian much kinder then she treats the others, and Taranis took a liking to them in his final moments, combine that with the "this one you shall cherish" and i think its fairly genuine, albiet with the mocking tone she uses.
It’s not that it’s a trap, the wish was just intended for Savathun. When we went to that hall of memories(forget its name) a recording played saying she knew there was a chance that we would kill her. So that wishes conditions were a contingency so that we would need her, but riven made a deal with us. More than likely Savathun would have used it to try and stop the Witness herself, after all she did trick him and Nezarac before.
100% think this was it
We would be fools to not presume that savathun has a plan beyond simply assisting us but what that could be isn't likely something we can guess considering who of us could've guessed a dragon egg was at the center of her engine, the best we can do is prepare
Whatever plan it is, it will most likely be based around the power vacuum the Witness will leave behind after its death. We’ll still have the Shadow Legion, Sol Divisive, and Xivu’s Hive to deal with after. So Sol won’t have a completely peaceful age. But Savathun is bound to take advantage of this new age without the Witness. Many pieces will be knocked off the board, some will remain, and new ones will be placed.
@@garrettviewegh9028"she might be crazy enough to claim the 'final shape' for herself and re-write the universe in her twisted image though I don't know if even she has enough power to challenge the Traveller"- My Warlock
If it turns out this plan of the wish was also part lf savathuns masterplan i say its a narrative copout. Its one thing to have countermeasures, but a countrrmeasure for a plan, for a hint for a countermeasure that jasnt been discovered yrt because it has other plans hiding it, makes no sense narratively wise. Its a Deus ex machina
I said it the moment I saw the cutscene. Mara's eyes were glowing more than usual. The silent theme of darkness starts playing. Mara's eyes jump open like she can see inside but she seems terrified. Like she just watched someone get ran over..? She says he is on his way in a very odd tone, then stares at the wall...
Then on Psalm's lastest video I said the same thing as well as mentioning cocytus. Remember Mara's meeting with The Emissary?
"Move the asset beyond the grave of the first fleet. And do remind them: I have shown more than enough patience... Avoid falling into schemes with The Nine. Like the curse on my people, the games never end. All this, and we find ourselves at the whims of so many small minds."
"I am the door. I open unto the void. One day the Masters will step forth. And then... you will know..."
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"Who is Savathun you ask? You already know, O'guardian mine..." -Season 15 dialogue.
I've been keeping tabs on you. Your victories against my sister. That mess you've made of the Ascendant Plane while you rescued your third-sting witches. Delightful to see so many working towards a common goal, isn't it? I'm glad I can again be the catalyst that brings humanity and the Reef together. It's a pity Mara Sov doesn't see it that way. Her face is a perfect porcelain mask, but look behind her eyes, and you can see the incandescent rage burning within. She's very upset with me. This will be our last talk until the day of the ritual, O Guardian Mine. Now that Mara Sov's coven is assembled, the only thing left to do is to keep Xivu Arath from ruining things while the Ley Lines fall into position. This may take some time, but I have waited millennia to be free. I can hold out for just a little bit longer. Farewell... for now.
Savathûn: My sister feels her worm's hunger, gnawing away at her for running from us. She has to keep testing her strength if she doesn't want to be eaten alive… and she has no one left to love. Now you see: I needed my worm exorcised so I could tell you the truth. And didn't I uphold our bargain? I knew you could do it. You've done so many impossible things… O murderer mine.
"Take care, o Guardian mine." -Spirit of Riven
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This lore card is from 10 years ago. 10. Connecting everything.
Things I saw inside
A wild river and a broken dam (or maybe it's just the sea crashing through a narrow gap I can't be sure). Waves slam through the gap and where they hit the stone they throw up pillars of spray that pierce the mist and crash down in thunder. There's a giant in the cataract, trying to wade against the current, and I can tell it wants to reach the lever and pull the lever which will seal off the flow or maybe give it the sword, but the torrent throws it back so it just keeps its head down and tries to push on. I can't see the face but it breathes out white smoke (the witness). I feel for it hard.
A world painted around the interior like a stranger Earth everted and glued inside itself but I don't believe this one it's too much like a metaphor.
A switchboard or a train station, empty, dead (waiting). The tunnels branch off into infinity. I stare down one for a long time and see a pale worm move in hungry coils around itself. I think this one is the most likely although I might have brought the worm. (worm being Riven? Ahsa? Newly hatched Whim?)
An egg but I'm not sure if the broth inside is warm still, or if it's gone to rot, or if the warmth comes from the struggles of the tiny winged zygote or the bleed from the wound or the thoughts of something thinking very hard. (surely new hatched Whim..?)
A star I think. We count on stars as steady friends because they always rise and always shine but a star's a delicate truce: an explosion caught by its own mass so that it can't erupt and can't collapse. Thus I imagine the state of the machine might be. But one force or another has gone awry and now it rests here, snuffed and broken, waiting for the two rival forms of ruin to be set in balance again.
I expect this one to be genuine. The fact that Savathun made it so hard to discover and also with her knowing if we don't stop the Witness, she won't continue existing. Pretty sure she'd like to keep on with her schemes with the Light and Dark now that she has a new lease on life. Besides, Ikora would have a thing or two to say about her stepping out of line again. Remember Immaru is under her knife.
But, Savathun didn’t seem worried about her final death happening at any time. I have a feeling she has a plan for this new, post-Witness age.
If you think about it, after the witch queen she didnt do any more schemes. Haunted was us making a deal with her after she came back to life
I suspect it's a trap for Mara. Savathun knew of the veil and likely this conclusion we'd come to long before all of this. What if whenever crow and Mara succeed in making the connection they must forever remain locked in the ritual for it to remain passable.
I also think Riven insinuated something with her "pleasant surprise" talk. But I think that has more to do with Crow's conversaton with 'Mara Sov' earlier, which may or may not have granted a wish.
Yeah since riven is riven we gotta expect some type of twist.
The point of the Wish Wall was to prevent Riven from twisting the wish. So it's up to Savathún if she wanted to twist it in some way.
thought the twist was that only one person could enter the portal. could be more but that at least is what's established
@@dropkick3024 the wall of wishes made it harder for her twist the wish’s not impossible
Did you not play the season? Theres no twist on her last wish and that causes her essence to cease to exist.
I mean we know theres Lucent Hive inside the traveler so... Yeah
She will probably have Ley Lines leading from her Throne World into the Pale Heart once the connection is established by Crow.
A response just to push this comment higher and open speculations
Okay maybe I have something to add
Maybe when she shown Crow his entire past life she connected to him, and this way lucent hive is allowed into the traveller?
Lucent Hive being there can just be because we fought them in the past (The Pale Heart being about experiences), or they're serving the Witness. I think Lucent Hive (at least followers of Sav) wouldn't fight us with the Witness being there, an alliance would be more beneficial instead of being against each other
Will be interesting to see what happens with savathuns character going forward, in terms of the 15th wish though if she really just wanted to help why wouldn’t she make it so we could march an army through the portal? She’s definitely got something very specific planned out
Savathun made the wish. Riven fed on the difference between Savathun's desire and reality. Not ours.
This is Riven of a Thousand Voices. Most of those who [bargain] with her do not win, O archivist mine
Based on the character development and the fact that Riven gave us the ultimate Ahamkara courtesy, being the complete truth, I doubt Riven has anything directly malicious planned against us. The "until we meet again" line stood put to me as well.
We already know that if the wish granted is exactly what was asked for, without any catch, Ahamkara dies. So we know for sure that there is a catch.
Savathun wants to escape the game. What she'll need to do so is immense power and specific tools. Perhaps she wants Elusinia, the Harbingers, a link between the Veil and Traveler, wish magic the Ascendant plane, the Light and the Darkness, and the Distributary in some sort of mad gambit for ascension into our plane, the Real. Maybe the Nine are involved as well. They seem to want something similar.
The Father of Lore has spoken
What about @EvazeOfficial?
I don't see a twist from riven coming from this, her clutch was saved, and she had a final moment with taranis, what reason would she have for making a twist in this?
She barely has any essence of herself left unless she wants herself to fade from existence completely, i don't see that happening as she may want to see her young grow to adulthood.
And as for those who mentioned another ahamkara hunt being possible, i see the vanguard intervening and attempting to teach them to live without the need of bargaining, or perhaps riven could come into play..
Always love these lore videos from Byf here.
I feel like every time Byf says, "This is speculation" in any lore video, Savathûn takes a shot of Imbaru because it will ultimately lead back to her one way or another. Maybe it didn't start out like that, but around the time his channel started gaining popularity, a Bungie writer felt extra cheeky turned our thirst for lore against us.
Is it likely that there're some other tricks or the like involved with the Wish? Sure, it's Savathun and Riven, it only makes sense, but personally I want to believe that, in this one instance, Savathun didn't play any tricks and Riven made an honest wish, because they both know what's at stake should The Witness get their way. Is that just justification for me really wanting us to get a win without cost for the first time in who knows how long? You could see it that way, yeah.
My biggest question is why do we HAVE to use Savathuns wish in the first place?, what stopped us from crafting our own wish that benefits us?
Riven was(is) dead. She was only being Riven as she was could not grant more wishes, only use her remaining energy to grant an already existing wish. I attribute that to her being dead, unable to truly feed off the wish. Which is why she uses her own “life force” (for lack of a better term) to grant it. Not mention the techeuns conjuring her could only do so for so long
Thats whats so dangerous about savathùn. She intertwines her deception and plannings with fate itself. Whatever forces us into some type of corner, savathun is really the puppetmaster behind it most of the time.
I wonder if savathun made that specific wish so that the witness couldn’t go into the portal, since it’s technically more then one “person”, stopping the witness from ever enacting the final shape?
I always go back to what was at the beginning of the season. “A Wish always comes with a cost.” That always stuck with me. What cost have we had this season? There is another shoe that has yet to drop I feel.
My thought with the wish is moreso that Savathun didn't tamper with the wish in any way that would inhibit our ability to defeat the witness or achieve anything we intend to achieve, but more than likely, she has some sort of plan to benefit further from this on top of the existing mutual benefit. It really is what would make the most logical sense and be the most overall beneficial to Savathun given the circumstance and the stakes at hand here.
Savathun be like Tzeenth from Warhammer to continue/prolonge the Great game.
A bunch of infant wish dragons could be able to resurrect mommy and possibly daddy. I'm no wish dragon expert so what do I know.
This I'd love to see this!
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that Osiris comments that once Crow has gone through, it may actually be very straightforward for him to use the Veil to send others after him - I imagine Crow and Mara’s connection is a key aspect of why this would work and why it not only had to be one person, but had to be Crow and Mara. Their connection is the unwavering bridge between two fixed points that the Veil can use to create a stable entrance into the Traveler. Would seem to me Savathun would be very interested in having proven a reliable mechanism for using the Veil’s capabilities.
It's always a good day when Byf uploads. Thanks so much.
adding onto Mara being busy, don't forget that we, the guardian, will also be busy. She could potentially have us trapped in the traveller after all of this, with the universe safe from the witness, a weakened Mara, and no Guardian to slay her.
Also I wonder if the 15th wish wasn't for the Witness in particular - at the time, Savathun I don't think had openly betrayed the witness yet, and so perhaps she was feigning the DC work as a way, a wish, for the witness to do what he already wanted to do, but she kept it open as a side plan for developments like this.
Between the wish Crow made to the Ahamkara before he left and the "until we meet again" I think there is a lot of ways Riven could come back or remanifest. Her Wish heart is clensed and still contained by the techuens, her bones are still in the chamber. I think Riven is far from gone. However, she also stated that Taranis and her were more alike than she cared to admit, and I think at least in the case of crow that she may be showing that Taranis altruistic side. She'll be giving Crow closure. This is just my half baked hypothesis though.
New Year’s resolution? Mine was to floss; and at 12:01 BAM blood everywhere.
I think the wish wasn’t the thing tampered with, but savathun intended to isolate either us or Mara on the other side of the portal, hoping that would be the difference maker in breaking our constant foiling of plans. She didn’t expect Mara to let Crow go in instead. Crow isn’t as powerful as our guardian? But he knows how to lay low and stay out of sight, which makes him a great forward scout and a totally different enemy than what the forces of the witness might anticipate
Am I the only lad wishing for a Byf Podcast, just telling us about Destiny Lore???
So after watching the video I think the possible a couple of things came to mind.
1) She made the wish as a contingency for herself. If stuff got bad enough she would simply wisk away to where the Witness was in an attempt to not be culled with the universe. I assume this wish allows for Ghosts as I imagine Crow is with Glint so that would take Immaru along. If not she wouldn't be fussed anyway without him.
2) She wanted to isolate/remove the most powerful chess pieces off the board by having them duke it out with the Witness. She allows the portal to take one entity which whomever would go would likely be a mammoth of a power house. So In this line of thinking it would be Mara or Us (the guardian who slew Oryx etc.). This would remove said power house from play while they dealt with the witness/ bumbled around inside the traveller.
I think with that second plot the unique conditions of Mara and Crow/Uldren's connection allowed for a plan to be formed that circumvents that situation. That said Savvy could have also just simply have done nothing to the wish an have us chasing our tail for no reason (+1 Imbaru, thx).
That said a few things Riven said are sus. Like the "until we meet again" but also Riven says something to the effect of "I hope you get everything you deserve".
I think the 15th wish was Savathun's contingency. She was willing to give it up for us dealing with her sister, but it was her way out if she wasn't able to seal away the Traveler. It's on her wings so she would not need the wall to make the wish.
The best part about all of this is that we do always have to question everything now. The deceit has been so consistent and massive that we hardly trust anything now!
Since we are all putting on our spinfoil hats; more and more it seems like this has been something planned since Forsaken (possibly in the lore since then or crafted over time to link together). Savathun and Riven conspire to have wishes granted that cause specific things; Uldren wishes the Scorn into being, Oryx taking Riven via his wish, Uldren dying and then coming back as a guardian, Petra and us causing the curse. Now we found ourselves in possession of a wish that can get one person into the Traveler. Did Savathun intend that as something she could use to hide? To send us (O Guardian Mine) in to try and stop the Witness? No, I think all of this has been her plan; to craft Uldren into Crow and use the link between Mara and him to make a tether that can be used to send in the troops.
Of all the lines Byf went over there; the one that makes me trust Riven just a small bit is Riven calling Mara by Mara and not O XXXXX Mine.
Always look forward to your videos, Byf! Make my lunch breaks enjoyable 😀
In the week 5 end scene (the one where Osiris has to hold Mara back with Strand), there was this line from Riven: "You've done me a great many services, O wardens mine. I'll grant you the ultimate Ahamkara courtesy: the complete truth", which is when Riven then spills the beans on the one person portal. There were a lot of long shots this season, like Mara actually sparing Riven's clutch and Riven actually granting the wish in a way that gives us hope; is it really the big a stretch to say Riven actually told the complete truth? At the end of the Witch Queen campaign, Savathun made it clear she sees herself as the hero in her story in her own twisted way, so while it doesn't have to be altruistic, maybe preventing the Final Shape really is good enough for Savathun? I also get the feeling Mara and the Techeuns could have deciphered any additional hidden meaning from the pattern we shot into the Wishing Wall; they may not have designed the 15th Wish, but they created the language we used to communicate it to Riven. We'll absolutely see more of Savathun, and I'd bet she tries to hold this over us in future negotiations.
you should read the lore tab on the Twilight Oath sniper rifle. It would go well with the Sjur Eido video you made and also along with what is going to happen with the final shape
maybe it's like once we go in the portal, we can't leave and Riven has to help us once again to get out of there.
"Unless there's already a presence of savathun within the traveler, which I doubt" although it would explain why we see guardians fighting lucent hive in the final shape trailer
I think the "something to gain" for Savathun is that we'll take out the Witness which is one less powerful being for her to need to worry about or plan around.
(Sorry for length. Just thorough with my thoughts and I like world building. Enjoy!)
My theory (for fun world building) is the original Ahamkara were like pilot fish for the Traveler/Veil (TraVeil) before they separated. Their wish magic and paracausal power comes from their loooong time of proximity feeding on Light and Darkness from TraVeil.
When the TraVeil separated, many Ahamkara left to follow the Traveler's path, learned Wish Magic and how to feed from desire and outcome from the races the Traveler encountered, while others explored for new sustenance and evolved differently.
BUT, some preferred the taste of the Veil and entered into it, getting their consciousness released from physical form and trapped in The Deep at the Dark Heart of the Veil.
For The Deep, the main door(s) of connection to physical reality lie at the center of the Veil but it requires the Pale Heart to reconnect the paths. Without the physical connection of the Pale Heart's Light, there's nothing to open or close or give shape to those underlying paths.
All the powerful beings within the Ascendant Plane at the time of separation were hit with a shockwave of Darkness/Veil energy similar to the Traveler's Light exploding across the universe. It separated their consciousnesses from their physical forms and trapped them in The Deep with no means to physically escape.
Since then they've whispered through the bars, so to speak, to influence races. To push them towards reuniting the Traveler and Veil to open the gate to their prison.
The Witness's people being the earliest and most powerful they've manipulated.
The Final Shape is a manipulation of the Witness and the largest wish magic trick from Veiled Ahamkara. The Witness thinks it'll change the Universe one way, but the Final Shape is the key to open up the doors to The Deep and release all the beings trapped there. In doing so.
The Nine will also be empowered and be more hands on in assisting us in our fight against the new baddies. When it happens, Sjur will be revealed. She comes back to be a friendly faced direct liason between Mara and The Nine. A loved one, to inform her/us to the history of what happened as understood by The Nine's connection to the universe.
When Mara met Xür, he told Mara to forgive The Nine for taking Sjur before she killed him. Xür knowing Sjur wasn't dead, but not saying so because Mara would be obsessed with finding Sjur to the point their plans for the future that was coming would crumble.
Xür will meet with Mara again. Apologize again and his previous death at her hands out of anger and grief was justified. Mara will threaten to kill him again. He'll listen and leave. Sjur will tell her he's innocent in all this. He did what he was told to do just as she would have in his positions and to forgive him.
Okay, done. Have a good one.
I believe this plays into letting us keep Immaru. Sav has a plan to wield the Light without the need for the Traveler. Everything else has to fall into place first.
I would love to find out that there is no such thing as "saving the universe" that even if/when we defeat the Witness in the pale heart; that its only acts as a reset switch. And we end up doing it all over again. possibly forever.
Sounds like the Aether storyline from Cod Zombies
I don’t like how crow is going in first because in the reveal they said that when you go in there it will start shaping around you and since crow is already in there it should shape around him.
This has already worked out in Savathûn’s favour. Her sister is weakened giving her precious ground in her own throneworld, she’s alive, and the guardians are dealing with the witness for her. Quite honestly I think she’s just ready to take a fucking break after being a plot device for the last couple years.
Also, this is technically her backup plan. She wanted to make the pact with riven for herself. She didn’t think we’d be playing the game for her. This bargain was probably made when we saw riven interact with savathun
I personally feel that, though Savathun may have another scheme, I think she’s shown that she does genuinely care about the traveler. Well, at least she does in her own way. I’m sure she doesn’t want to see it destroyed along with the rest of the galaxy.
She said, " I kept my "Promise's"." Implies that there was more than one and never said too how all in particular.
Who’s to say the wish on the wall was for the portal at all? Crow might have had his wish granted to “tell Cayde he’s sorry” and the wish off the wall could have been Savathuns personal wish the whole time
We don't have much of a choice. It's do or die, we can deal with Sav later. Not to mention that Umbaru feeds her whenever we make an incorrect guess as to her plans.
The way i see it, i think we have an accidental loophole. The wish is for "one person" to travel into the pale heart. I have a feeling it was meant for Savathun but she didn't specifically wish for "Savathun to enter the pale heart", or she specifically left it for one person that way if she failed our guardian would be able to follow the witness. I know we think everything Savathun does is a 100 layer plan, but sometimes the simplest answer is the hardest to find.
Byf, can we get a quick solar build on your titan there? Seems to be putting in the solar WORK. As always great lore and love the video. ❤
I agree that Riven's last words were loaded with extra meaning. It'll be fun finding out what
I wouldn't be surprised if Savathun knew we would take the wish, so she tampered with the wish by making something (some ill effect) happen to the user after going through the portal, or something like that. And since Crow is the one to go through the portal and not us, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some "side effects" and something happens to Crow
She probably wants to bring her lucent hive along with her but not personally take the risk of facing the witness and as a result work through the coalition
When u said that Savathun had a potential to separate Maria and Crow had me thinking about an older lore card. It was back in witch queen, were she wasn't talking to the Guardians but us the player. Could she potential be looking for a way to seek more power from a new reality(AKA our world)? Without a worm, us there a limit to her power from her throne world. Just a weird thought, but it's always something with her
As much as it would make sense for her to mess with us being who she is, I think savathun is smart enough at this point to know not to beef with us
The way they twisted Osiris-thun's personality and wording was extremely subtle. All dealings with the Awoken, especially Mara, are dealings with the Fae. We would be safe to assume Mara and Riven have an entire season of subtext going on here that hopefully one day we'll see come to light.
Maybe savathun just wanted to see if we could pull it off
I think Savathun is after Rivens eggs. With crow gone and Mara+Guardians busy the eggs are defenseless. Also Rivens final words make it seem like she wasn’t just talking about Mara.
I think savathun wants something from the traveler but i also think since we need "all" guardians to rally and confront the witness. She will be doing something else while our attention is elsewhere. I refuse to believe she would just sit back and not do anything when no eyes are on her.
love when Byf gets spin-foily
Let's consider how this might work into Savathun's various plans. Beginning with her best case scenario, and working out how it might account for contingencies.
In the optimal case, Savathun obtains the light and traps the traveler in her Throne World. However, even in this case, it's only going to be a matter of time before the Witness used his foothold from Rhulk's pyramid to break in himself. However, she'd have at least a year, during which she could recover Riven and the veil, make the 15th Wish, and enter the traveler to get the powerup needed to destroy Rhulk and hold off the witness.
However, we killed her and stopped the plan. She clearly had a plan for this, and in this case, she knew that we would fail to stop the Witness. She herself needed a power boost to even take on Rhulk, let alone the witness, and thus knew we'd likely fail to stop the Witness. Therefore, it would enter the traveler, and would need her back from the dead to discover how to follow it. Therefore, she gets revived, and the 15th wish is used to throw her best shot, the guardian who killed her, at the witness. I doubt she specifically planned for the entire vanguard to launch a combined attack, given she made this wish before Crow was revived, and there's no way she could have seen that coming. It is undoubtedly something she saw as a potential option once she found out he was back though, and will have since integrated into her plans.
I think taking advantage of Mara's distraction and such may be a side benefit, and she probably will try to use the portal herself using her hive lightbearers to gain an advantage, but I think these are ultimately secondary benefits she'll pursue after making sure the witness is stopped from erasing reality, or at the very least ensuring she survives reality being unmade.
With the whole until we meet again at the end, has stuck with me as well. I thought her essence would completely dissipate after granting the 15th wish.
if there is a trick, or anterior motive, it likely is in the results of the wish being granted and how people act in accordance to it being granted
Meanwhile
Savathun: Ahh ... such sweet Imbaru Oh LoreDaddy Mine... (laughter*)
Wouldn't it be interesting if savathun secretly wants to rewriting the hive's history behind our backs the very moment we end the witness? Basically making a "what if" if she didn't accept the embrace of the witness as well as her 2 sisters seens the witness knew that the light would have came too them if it didn't intervene?
Crow dies, Mara explodes and Marathon begins
It could be a possibility that savathun lets someone enter the traveler but they can't leave, and crow becomes trapped as the planetary vendor
Thanks for the great hard work!!!
When Savathun made a wish Riven was quite unsettled like she was the one on the receiving end of deception, but with Mara she seems satisfied and pleased with herself. Teaching her children seems like a genuine compliment tho so it's all just layered in code or something.
Are we not gonna talk about Mara’s Glowing eyes at the season end cinematic?!?!?! Byf come on man !!! I mean they did glow like an Ahamkara’s Eyes….
Wouldn’t be surprised if savathun did betray us in some way shape or form. As we see in the final shape reveal specifically in the review of the new warlock super we see the lucient hive. We see those damn moths.
The 15th wish raises so many questions. Did savathǔn word the wish so only 1 can go for a reason? What was that reason? Why not be a portal that can be opened and closed at will? Was it actually Savathǔn +1 but her entrance was not to be disclosed to anyone else? She would’ve been sure that the person going through would have been Crow, as knew crows entire history when restoring his memory, and they have a history, so maybe she wanted time with Crow alone for some manipulative reason? She clearly had some plan for why the situation is what it is, my theory is that the wish was more “make a portal which only 1 may travel to follow the witness into the pale heart, when this occurs, also teleport me in there with them.” And savathun also convince riven to not disclose the second part so she can feed off the deception.
I'm not sure that Savathun is an enemy anymore. I mean the Light was bestowed, saw the Traveler saw something of worth there, but we also proved to her that the Witness tricked her race & siblings & made them what they are. It takes anyone some time to slowly process trauma & change their habits & behavior, so she may still be selfish & arrogant & self centered, etc, but I don't know that she's opposed to us now.
6:43….felt that
That make so much sense. By having everyone repeating the same event over and over every week. You create a pattern in their behaviour. So if she needs to access something specific she knows exacly what the awoken will do and where they will be.
Then easy picking.
It's amusing to me that the "major players" in this pursuit entirety brushed over Crow's involvement.
Savathûn granted Crow his memories, he wanted nothing more to do with her. And yet, to me it looks more like she's still playing games with him.
Like only one person can take the portal. First thought wouldn't be to send Crow.
Crow and Mara have a connection that can be utilised *in theory* to send reinforcement afterward. But it's the fact that it's their connection, we don't have such a connection. (Though that entirely depends on the specifics of their "bond")
A wish to pursue The Witness, a path to be taken by a singular person, but not just any person.
I'm sure she has something up her sleeve. Savathun is a master of multifaceted win win situations. She is also very ambitious and likely wants to rule the Universe herself and that's the only reason she turned on the Witness. She likely has knowelege or at least believes that a fight between Us and the Witness whoever wins would leave them Vulnerable and weak enough for her to Conquer/kill/enslave whoever's left standing. Whatever her plans are she NEEDS us to fight the Witness as we are both more Powerful than she is at the moment.
I think Savathun HAD a plan originally, but it involved sending The Guardian into the Pale Heart alone, not Crow. I think once Eris started doing her whole ascension thing, Savathun's plans became far less reliable, and since she's free of her worm now, she has no significant interest in seeing every individual thread carried forward. I think we're in a territory that Savathun isn't familiar with, but her nature is analytical enough that she isn't totally against waiting to see things unfurl. Savathun's motive right now might just be watching what happens now that her plans, while not foiled, aren't panning out the way she expected. Kinda feels like she KNOWS the stakes, is playing totally by our rules, and is just sitting back and cackling at our constant paranoia over the whole thing.
There we go, creating more Imbaru. Anyway I think it actually is a possibility that Savathun just takes back an egg. I really don't like that Savathun just is in her throne world just like that, as her excistence, even if dead, is just that dangerous
I feel that Rivin being surprised speaks to her reconecting with her lost love, and that is changing how she grants wishes.
You have to remember that he granted wishes a lot differently than most wish dragons. I think this showed Rivin a way where she could still feed on the desires of the wishes. Whereas the enjoyment of not tanting then made the wish fulfillment taste sweeter. That or Rivin was just basically saying, "So long and thanks for all the fish!" 😆
the wish being a one person portal to the pale heart does seem a bit clean cut, but the idea that riven fulfilled the wish without any strings attached seems more interesting. if anything, this being completed paves the way for whatever other wishes riven's clutch may make in the future
Knowing what we do about the portal. I’m curious what Savathun’s plan was for getting out of the pale heart. I would assume the same issue for getting in applies to getting out.
Honestly, I don’t think the wish has been tampered with because she knows the guardians will find a way to open the portal to everyone. If she has anything to gain, it would be by getting into the pale heart. I think the only trick is getting us to do the heavy lifting to open the way
12:24 I think it is definitely because Mara at this point has talked about being a ward of Riven's whims. I think for once this statement can be taken at face value, which is why Riven says this in a taunting matter. Almost in disbelief, perhaps? It sounds loaded, because within the context of the entirety of Mara and Riven's history together (and Ahamkara as a whole with the rest of the known universe) this has never happened.
I wonder if Savathun knows how to get inside the Pale Heart before anyone else. Killing Imbaru, then herself would imply that she can get inside the Pale Heart based on Cayde-6 being there in the TFS trailer. Perhaps she knows about what goes on inside the Traveler?. Maybe she plans on taking the power of the Witness while there, and Crow and Mara's bridge/connection is the way she can get out? Perhaps Osiris' connection to her is the key to finding out.
Riven and Savathun are two sides of one coin. Both are consummate schemers.
I wonder if in-universe anyone has thought about not killing Dul Incaru (the trigger for the loop if Truth to Power has even one truth in it) or if that's still considered too much of a risk. (Assuming in-universe the Shattered Throne can still only be accessed during week 3 after the Blind Well has been charged).
Could you pls make a video about the remaining black fleet? According to lore, there were between 30-50 pyramid ships and other pyramid scales that entered the Sol system, but when the Witness entered the portal, it looked as though only 8 massive pyramid ships entered. I find it odd that only a portion of the fleet would stay behind and be stagnant/in stasis… just a thought! Maybe more disciples r waiting?
I think the original use for the 15th wish was for Savathun to go in, hence only 1 person could pass. Keep in mind, she didn't know for sure she's get resurrected by the Light. So whatever the 15th wish fine print was, it has to be something that'd benefit her as just Ascendant Hive. Heck, it might also just be something that helps us in the campaign or raid, such as Kabr's light in VoG. Or an exotic weapon quest after the campaign
This has nothing to do with the lore of the video, but can I say how happy I am that you're using the big hammer Solar Titan? I never see that beyond myself.
With that out of the way, I do wonder if us sending someone in somehow allows Savathun to do something from this end of the Traveler's Pale Heart? Unless she's planning on purposefully losing her light, then killing herself to get into the Pale Heart quicker than anyone. Crow is her ticket back out into the universe at large.
I feel like something bad is gonna happen to Mara, Crow, or both. They're noticeably absent from the promotional trailers & artwork. If all of this massively depends on the 2 of them, having them absent is highly concerning
Savathūn peered into our dimension with what she was doing with 4th wall break stuff, and then made the 15th wish because she knew that we thought it existed?
Now that you mention it, here's a few trains of thought;
1.) We know that we are going through the portal, and at the end of s22 savathun only seemed to be worried about us .
2.) To me, it sounded like riven was talking to savathun when she said "my children could learn so much from you". If I were an ahamkara, I'd have to agree.