The Blooming Deep | Caiatl: "Where is Her Sister, Xivu Arath?" | The Final Shape
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- The Coalition members talk to Luzaku.
**
Luzaku: The Sky greets you.
Caiatl: You will address me as Empress, and you will answer my questions. What is the Witch Queen planning here? Where is her sister, Xivu Arath?
Luzaku: This one knows not the answers you seek, but... understands your anger.
Caiatl: Do not presume to understand my anger, you disgusting creature. My homeworld lays in ruin because of your kind!
Luzaku: No.
Caiatl: What did you just say?
Luzaku: The Hive were a sword wielded by the Witness. It was the Witness' hand that cleaved your world in twain. It was the Witness who lied to us. Robbed us of the Sky and our homeworld. Our destiny.
Caiatl: You do not know my loss.
Luzaku: Then perhaps we can both learn?
Caiatl: No.
**
The Pale Heart Lost Sectors:
• The Pale Heart Lost Se...
#Destiny2 #Luzaku #TheFinalShape #Caiatl #Savathun #XivuArath #Torobatl #TheWitness
God the balls on her for telling Caitel that she was wrong.
Of course, coz she's a Guardian (Lucent) and we make our own fate! lol
I mean what can Caital do? Kill her? She's a Lightbearer with a ghost.
@@zachialadams9279 I mean she can do the same thing we do and crush her ghost.
@@airsoul366 is caital paracausal?
@@burgergang418Technically no but she's killed plenty of paracausal beings. Being paracausal doesn't nearly mean invincible, and Caital is the leader of the cabal.
That was rather well handled by Luzsku. She didn’t antagonize Caiatl and while still angry, she left the conversation without an outburst.
I appreciate the... brutal honesty. The Hive are changing, but they are still responsible for the deaths of countless lives and the destruction of countless worlds. You don't just drop that.
Could say the same for guardians :) prisoners dilemma and village war from the hidden dossier.
The most important thing we can do, the most formidable blow we can strike against our true enemy, is to offer irrational grace: to choose unreasonable hope and unreasoning compassion even if it goes against calculated advantage.
It is only by disregarding the logic of mere survival that we can create a possibility of existence outside that logic.
The only way out is a moment of grace. Cooperation, spontaneously and for no reason, after 20 years of war. Forgiveness without cause. Unilateral mercy. Declaring peace.
This is the value of forgetting. Forget they hurt you. Forget what's rational. Do what's right.
Now, if the other village takes advantage of your disarmament, you will look like a damn fool. But if the other side stops fighting too, both of you can go back to the maximum global good.
Imagine that those bushels of grain are peoples' lives, and you understand the urgency of grace. You feel the need to forget the past.
@@yhellohYou could play whataboutism all day. It is not me who needs convincing. But it is unrealistic for the characters to go all Kumbaya at the drop of a hat.
They fought a common enemy together. Now that enemy is gone. What happens next remains to be seen.
@@yhelloh No, I couldn’t say the same for Guardians. There’s a vast ocean of difference between a people who fought a defense war for survival and a people who gladly fought a million offensive wars of genocide. Take your bs whataboutisms and hypotheticals somewhere else.
@@akaj2013 i’m quoting in game text you can call it whateveryouwantism, doesn’t make it any less true. warlords had the light yet terrorized innocent children. you have the choice to give grace, like the traveler did to many species, or you can carve the universe to your liking, like the witness attempted. :)
edit:
You can wield a knife, or you can wield a ploughshare, it’s what you do with the tool that matters. Do you wish to garden or cut away what lives in the garden?
@@yhelloh It's not about forgetting, its about forgiving. We do not forget the Holocaust or 9/11 or Hiroshima, but we do remember; not with hate and anger, but sorrow for each other. Sorrow that those who followed were led astray. Sorrow for those in charge who made tough decisions. And we remember we too are just as susceptible. And we forgive each other because we repent to each other and wish for the same grace for ourselves. Because it is the only way to end the pain. She is right that the Hive were deceived, that they were meant to be what we became; but the Witness took that from them. All they ever knew was the Knife edged lie, born bound to parasites that make it either kill or be killed. But now the truth is revealed, and a new path of possibilities is open. I'm certainly not going to lump Luzaku in with the rest, anymore than I would Caitail with the Red Legion or Mithrax with House Devils. You wanna act like a monster, get put down like the Witness or Savathun. Evil exists and should be stopped. But if you're like Mithrax or Luzaku, and they are capable or change, then we must tend that garden to make it grow.
Caitel is right to be mad buuuuut, also can't help but think of all the species enslaved or wiped out by the Cabal.
Right, they literally enslaved the psions 💀💀💀💀
@@Deadshot3612 That was under Calus's rule.
Under her rule, she was the one who freed the psions. And the ones who follow her do so willingly.
@@Myahster Not Calus specifically but previous rulers, remember Calus ruled with opulence
The red legion almost wiped the entire of Sol into oblivion with the almighty and when the red legion attacked they literally targeted everyone. Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if they killed civilians that helped guardians.
Almost like no one really has the moral high ground if we're going to judge individuals not for the actions they personally commit but by the crimes of their species'?
I like how Luzaku is trying her best to be a person. No tricks or sense of superiority. I know Savathun says that she’s finally picked up what she’s been trying to teach the Hive, but honestly I think Luzaku is a couple pages ahead in terms of her development compared to the Witch Queen.
Savathun still wants power. Luzaku just wants to live outside of machinations.
Sav doesn't want power for its own sake. Everything she does is an attempt to be free of restrictions. Worms, Sword Logic, Witness, Light and Dark, even life and death themselves--she's always been trying to throw off anything that chains her in any way, always trying to find what's outside the boundaries. Luzaku has a similar open mind, but she's still trying to figure out what she really wants.
This makes two people to say no to Caiatl to her face
The meme is so strong that I forgot it was twice
Does this mean she’s gonna crush on Luzaku too?
@@christopheraustin5915 Most likely in the most literal sense of that word.
We must protect the hive gf at all costs.
THREE.
_one _*_fucking_*_ guardian_
Respectfully the cabal don’t have much room to stand on considering their history before entering sol was basically the the same as the hive except they took “life long prisoners” if you know what I mean, the psions weren’t to happy
Yeah, Caiatl doesn't exactly have ground to stand on; besides, Luzaku is still relatively a New Light; she's only got like, a year and a half worth of memory. Like how Uldren's actions weren't Crow's, Luzaku's current self is new. (Note: Savathûn doesn't count, she cheated)
@@GenericName0042 Actually, its said by Luzaku that everyone in the hive were told of their past selves after resurrection. Unlike Humanity that had very few records, the Hive keep pretty good records with things like the World Grave.
yep. Caiatl is, imo, a full on hypocrite for this one. if she can throw what the Hive as a whole did against someone trying to make amends, then we can throw the Cabal from D1, Ghaul and Calus' actions against her and her ascendancy. Caiatl hasn't even tried to make amends from what i remember, just rocked up and tried to get us to join her group, net even form an alliance.
@@arbiterprime2145 not a hypocrite, but someone who was gravely wronged, and has yet to begin healing from that loss. She WAS the victim of a betrayal that led her to inadvertently cause the destruction of her homeworld. Both Sav and Xivu are directly responsible for that. And it was only a handful of years ago. It's still very much fresh
I'd argue the Cabal are worse. The Krill were tricked by the witness into becoming the hive and the nature of the hive is a symbiotic relationship of tithing violence or dying. The Cabal just chose to be violent genocidal slaver warlords.
Caiatl just not knowing how to react with completely unagressive Luzaku is amazing. "...no."
She pulled that one from Zavala's book lol
I walked into the zone where Luzaku first meets you and is like "im friend!"
I was already shooting at her and im fairly certain I said "god dammit another fucking wizard"
But she was friendly and I immediately went "oh, shes a friendly wizar-WHAT? OH MY GOSH HELLO FRIEND IM SORRY FOR SHOOTING AT YOU!"
I think most of us are like that. Luckily I was taking my time strolling thru the lost sector so by the time I heard the Hive Wizard attacking, I was told that it was friendly. So, luckily Luzaku didn’t eat any of my bullets.
But man, it’s so funny how she’s skyrocketed to one of the most beloved characters in TFS, even tho she really doesn’t have a whole lot of importance yet. I guess it’s just the potential right in front of us that we’re so excited about.
I looked at her and saw her name tag and was immediately FREN
I saw her fighting Dread and Taken and I was like: Cool your Mom tell you to provide help?
I didn't immediately warm to her, but I'm coming around. She's a very interesting character, I just have a super hard time actually justifying to myself in-game ever finding rapport with the Hive. The Fallen have been ruthless murderers and pirates, but that was mostly on a house to house basis, and even at their worst a fair sum of them were never pillaging monsters. The Cabal were expansionist warmongers through most of their own age, but at least Caiatl's forces as they are now were never really as bad as those that came before, and have since made amends pretty heartily. It's hard to hate the Vex in a meaningful way, seeing as how they're basically a sentient equation that probably doesn't even see life the same way everyone else does. They suck, but they're more like pests than monsters. The Hive...the Hive are a cult of social darwinist bugs that worship genocide almost as fervently as they do their own twisted, divine aristocracy they call their "Ascendants". They've been exterminating planet after planet, race after race, since around the time of the late cretaceous period on Earth, and they've done it merrily and without regret. The ultimate goal of the Hive as the last remaining life forms in all of existence is only slightly less insane than that of the Witness and, by my reckoning, even more unconscionable because at least the Witness truly believed it's plan was the best possible way to achieve a universe devoid of suffering. Save for this nascent sect of Lucent Brood with Luzaku that seems willing to coexist, the Hive have never been anything but zealously committed to the extermination of any opposing cultures it finds, and moreover, philosophically self-assured of their own rightness in doing so. Fuck the Hive. If I had it my way, Savvy and her rabid, sword-happy wine aunt of a sister would be immediately next in the Vanguard's crossheirs.
@@joeyberg5765small problem there, the Hive do what they do because that is what they were taught to believe. They literally handed this philosophy by Rhulk, The Witness and the Worm Gods and had their very existence become reliant on slaughter.
And later the Winnower would reaffirm this philosophy to Oryx that their philosophy was the only immutable and unchanging truth of the universe....
“You destroyed my planet!”
Luzaku:Nu uh.
Yeah, because being lied to by the Witness totally means it was all its fault and the Hive are not responsible for relentless genocide of countless other species. /s
I really like this direction they have taken and honestly it has been a long time coming. I always imagined they had to be Hive Guardian's who would want to carve their own path and make their own "Destiny" rather than being told what to do and given purpose by the Witch Queen alone. I hope Luzaku is not alone and is given a full fireteam of Hive Guardians to join her and us in the narrative. I also hope both characters in the same and players on the outside come to an understanding that we can't blame or hurt a particular Hive (Guardian) for the actions of the past brood and their race as well as what the Witch Queen is making them do. If they deflect we have an ally there and shouldn't punish them for other's actions.
Edit- I also don't like calling Luzaku or any other Hive a "disgusting creature" especially when they show comprehension and contemplation of their actions. Basically, "Empress, you're outta line" sentiment here
I agree. Luzaku better have a big role to play in Episode Heresy, where it’s teased that we’ll shake up the entire Hive hierarchy. Imagine if Luzaku ends up becoming a part of it, and becomes on the same level as Savathun and Xivu Arath.
I especially think it's silly for Caiatl to blame a Lucent Brood Hive for something that it seems was overwhelmingly undertaken by Xivu Arath. Caiatl states at some point that Savathun played a hand in the destruction of Torobatl, but I have yet to see that in the slightest.
@@billywerber9117 yeah it's reflecting the bias we have, similar to how people did and still do when talking about Crow, it wasn't easy for people to see him as anything other than Cayde's killer.
@@billywerber9117 if you know the lore of how Torobatl fell, it’s very clear Savathun was responsible for the whole thing coming to pass.
Put simply, she made one of the high Cabal generals and great confidant of Caiatl become obsessed with the Hive sword logic, so much so that this general became a public danger to the Cabal. So Caiatl had to kill her. Unfortunately, as she did so, that death is what allowed Xivu Arath to begin invading Torobatl in the first place. There’s also a lore bit where it shows Savathun talking to Xivu Arath, basically saying “Here ya go, sis. I’ve prepped the invasion for you, now go get em.”
@@twelved4983 Oh shoot, I thought that was still Xivu. My bad.
She said it! She said the name of the game!!!!
Luzaku really threaded a thin line there lol
0:55 -- So _THAT'S_ why they call it that...
To be fair, the same could’ve almost been said for the Cabal and Ghaul.
About time we got a Lucent Hive that doesn't want to just blade barrage(yes I know she's a wizard but blade barrage is annoying to me) us. She's also kind of nice, the first actually nice Hive in general that we've met.
Luzaku is a cutie patootie
When you realise your sworn nemesis was twisted and beguiled by the common enemy.. it would be hard to process
That subtle sing song tone Luz puts on when she says "Then perhaps we can both learn". She knows exactly what she's doing, stonewalling Caiatl.
The Cabal lost their homeworld. The Hive lost theirs, and millions of years of a promised future, the entire weight of their campaign is the bitter poison of being lied to about the Sky right at the start of their ascencion from Fundament.
I’VE BEEN IN THE TOWER FOR YEARS.
you were really horny during season of the deep with some of those lines you dropped on us
Luzaku is good people.
"Our destiny."
What you forget to mention, Luzaku, is that it is my Destiny Too.
Well, it was actually Savathûn who brainwashed Umun’Arath into worshipping the Hive, but still.
Yup, just to bait Xivu into accepting "a gift", which was just her way to trick Xivu into proving her own hypocrisy. Not even truly needed, just for fun.
MY SISTER HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ASSHOLE.
luzaku is right, and Caiatl are not wrong too, sigh, i only hope light will forgive...
Luzaku is dead wong. The Hive commited genocide for a millenia, it was their choice.
@@LuxintN7 well technically they were under control of the Worms which are parasites that eat them unless the feed them... the witness gave them said worms after lying to them... but yes the did destroy Caital's homeworld but most hive can't really feel emotion.
@@LuxintN7 So have Cabal. It was their choice as well
@@user-do2rq3oh4u that's true.
“Okie dokie!”
Thank you for recording these
Caital talks like that as if luzaku couldn’t vaporize her with the snap of a finger lol
Ghaul would have blown up his star to wipe out xivus forces
Lukatu: "...Our Destiny"
[dicaprio pointing meme]
Caital, Earth and the whole of Sol was about to be deleted because of your kind. Can't just flip it around.
COMMON CABLE L.
Man I love the development the Lucent Hive have been getting. No longer enslaved by worms and sword logic, Luzaku and anyone else who now has the ability to live and think freely outside of killing now shows the grip the Witness had on their kind through it's manipulation.
lo respect for Caitel or being 100% true to herself
I have never wanted to magdump Caiatl more than I did in this moment.
Why do characters time and again just not seem to get it into their thick head the hive suffered more than any other race and for countless eons longer. The whole reason the hive are what they are today is because of their suffering. They suffered so much they shaped the destiny of the universe itself and changed the cosmic landscapes across billions of years. Their entire logic, the one they spread across billions of worlds, their philosophy and values, their ideology were build upon the purpose to never ever suffer that much again, to never be that helpless ever again.
To say “you don’t understand my loss” to a hive is absolutely insane
I believe it's because, in the end, no matter how much you lost or were manipulated or corrupted, it does not undo the damage you've done to others, and others are not required to forgive you. Forgiveness is individual and comes from within, it is not something that you are inherently owed, no matter how much pain you've suffered.
Caital cannot see past her anger because the Hive's violence caused the destruction of her ENTIRE PLANET. I need you to think about our Earth, right now. How many cultures, people, languages and history we have. Our wildlife, our fauna, the unimaginable beauty our planet contains. I want you to think about human creations, cities, art, monuments, trails and legends. I want you to think about the insurmountable wealth of history and knowledge, built upon thousands of years worth of our species' existence, to the point where it has allowed me to type on a keyboard to communicate with you thousands of miles away. Now, raze it to the ground. All of it. Destroyed. Billions of lives, lost. That is what the Hive did to Torobatl. That is horrifically traumatic. We hear about cartoon villains wanting to "destroy the world", and that's always seen as amusing, because our world is unimaginably large to us. But it DID happen. Xivu Arath did that to Torobatl, and all the Hive enabled that. "But their worm - " And yet, violence under duress is still violence. If you take someone's life, even if it was in self-defense or under duress, that can permanently change you, and permanently change how others see you.
Luzaku wants to change. That's a wonderful thing. It starts with one person, just one, saying "no more", for more to follow. I'm hoping that Caital will eventually learn to respect Luzaku, in the same way she came to respect Eris Morn. But right now? I can understand why one single Hive rebelling against the grain is not enough in her eyes to redeem the entire species from the suffering its inflicted on countless aliens across the galaxy.
@@Videogamefangirl The most important thing we can do, the most formidable blow we can strike against our true enemy, is to offer irrational grace: to choose unreasonable hope and unreasoning compassion even if it goes against calculated advantage.
It is only by disregarding the logic of mere survival that we can create a possibility of existence outside that logic.
The only way out is a moment of grace. Cooperation, spontaneously and for no reason, after 20 years of war. Forgiveness without cause. Unilateral mercy. Declaring peace.
This is the value of forgetting. Forget they hurt you. Forget what's rational. Do what's right.
@@yhelloh Now I know what you're quoting, and it does tie very closely to the assessments given about the nature of Light & Dark in the Witch Queen Collector's edition. And yes, ultimately, I do believe that those will be the ultimate themes of Destiny moving forward, and I do believe that Caital will genuinely come around to understand and move past this.
But, as a narrative tool, it is very important to remember that conflict is necessary in a good story. Without conflict or people who refuse to forgive, you have an incredibly boring story with no conflicts whatsoever, we all get into a circle with all the aliens and sing kumbaya. We COULD have also truly found peace with the Witness - if the Witness chose to use a moment of grace to, spontaneously and without reason, stop its violence.
But the truth about the necessity of having the spears ringed around the gentle city, is specifically for individuals like the Witness. And, in Caital's perspective, individuals like the Hive. It's a perspective built on missing information and wrongly targeted anger. But, it is still a perspective, and it is unreasonable to assume that forgiveness, grace and letting go of trauma is "just that easy", as we've seen with Eramis' entire character thus far. Possible? Yes. The core theme of Destiny? Yes. The idea that if we all tried really hard, and were very careful, then we really could live in peace, and man, that's why I love Destiny. I'm a sucker for that stuff.
I do believe Caital will come around. But I do think it is vital to give it time, and to understand where Caital comes from. She is not being difficult or cruel for being distrusting of the Hive.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that some character's are being 'thick headed' but it could also be much simpler than that. 'We' know of the Hive's history but others within the story may not. I think it's clear that Caiatl is being ignorant of the Hive's history simply because she only sees what she's been fighting against, and when come across something that looks like her enemy but behaves and talks very differently has shaken her, yet her stoicism as both the leader of her race as well as the background she comes from of said race has, understandably, made her more bull-headed then the rest of us more rational beings that have gotten to know the Hive's background. Luzaku is a being that is so profound to give anyone that communes with it great context about the hive as well as, in Caiatl's case, herself. I have faith in the Bungie team that this is where they are going with this.
(EDIT): Actually, going back and rewatching it a second time, it seems that Luzaku doesn't, how should I say, know how to read the room. She herself is very stoic that she is right and that Caiatl is wrong, and goes on to talk, as if to herself, that she has been wronged by the Witness even though it was her people that 'made the choice' to destroy Torobatl, even though the Witness did lie to them. She's ignorant of the Empresses' own pain that her race brought to Caiatl and doesn't think she (or the Hive) should take responsibility, even though she has literally said that the Hive make their own decisions. I'm not sure if she's just being arrogant here or if Bunjie made a mistake in their writing, but she's contradicting herself.
Look, man, the last three sisters of the Osmium Dynasty had it rough growing up to be sure, but they let their rage and their pride and their ambition lead them into an aeon spanning lifetime of interstellar genocides. The Witness might have deceived them and the Worm Gods have been the carrot to that stick, but they still bit it, and they didn't stop to reconsider more than a token moment even after they started annihilating whole systems of life while they were munching on that carrot. My two cents.
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, blame someone else huh
Uh huh.
caiatl kinda forgot of the amount of races that were also extinct and enslaved by the cabal, luzaku really handled her anger quite well.
I'll admit, I was kind of hoping Caiatl would be a bit more... Understanding or open-minded I guess? Oh well
I think if there is one thing we’ve learned since Forsaken at least, it’s that forgiveness takes time and isn’t easy. We just defeated the “original” Darkness and it’s only now that the Hive are slowly starting to come around.
The Cabal blow up planets rather than fly around them. Caiatl may be a bit more lenient than typical, but is still hard headed and VERY intent on revenge.
@@79bigcatThat also means she's really got no room to judge. She can be angry, for sure, but the Cabal are certainly not innocent, regardless of who currently rules them
Yes, idealistically you are correct and it should be that way. However, we can understand why Caiatl isn't one to jump ahead on that. I do hope that she will be written to come around and understand that A) Hive Guardians aren't the same as "Hive" as they are reborn in the light B) The Lucent Brood while under Savathun can still go against her and carve their own path (free will) just like us, as the Traveler doesn't control us or our will.
For that any Lucent Hive (and I hope there are more) have to be treated differently regardless. Otherwise we can never expect the same of ourselves. When you are reborn through the traveler you are given a clean slate, you can choose what to do from there. And clearly (thankfully) someone at Bungie has taken this up and written it into the game. I hope Finch and his Guardian can also come under the same understanding. Side note- something I had imagined in Witch Queen was not just him but rather his Guardian and him both delfecting against Savathun but they chose not to write it that way.
Hoping this leads to that and more additional Hive Guardians given VAs and lines of communication.
Forgiveness takes time. Even Mara Sov in her dialogue with Luzaku admits that she needs time to put aside her emotions. And this is Mara Sov, the queen of "the line between light and dark is very thin". Out of all people, SHE should be capable of forgiving Luzaku and giving her a chance, but she doesn't, not yet. She's polite with her, but tells her that she will need time to accept her very existence as a "friendly Hive". Caital probably also needs that time - she just says it with a lot less grace and tact than the Awoken Queen does.
Blaming Savathun for Torobatl is like blaming Crow for Fikrul and blaming Luzaku for Xivu'Arath is like blaming Misraaks for Solkis.
But Savathun was responsible. Savathun is the one dragged the Hive into this.
yeah, caiatl is a hypocrite. her kind is a intergalactic conqueror, even worse without the witness/darkness influences
if not friend why friend shaped
Luzaku isn't the Osmium Court sisters, who have terrorized the universe for millions of years. She's not even the same Luzaku that was there before she stepped into the Traveler's mindscape. Holding wizards accountable for the sins of their ancestors is extremely hypocritical of Caiatl, considering she comes from a lineage of nationalist usurpers, that enslaved half of the entire galaxy and completely wiped out any trace of Psion culture from existence. All I am saying is that it's brave talk for a racist space walrus within Golden Gun range. We remember Mars and the Red War 🔫
Caiatl's first line sounds off.
LIKE TOROBATL.
No one disrespects luzaku who is best girl! I get ciatal still has revenge set out on xivu and sav for her home but she’s one to talk. How many times have the cabal caused damage to planets and civilizations? Ghaul, calus, the psions. Luzaku is different from the hive and if we were able to trust her then cital should’ve seen that she’s not like the other hive
Humanity never heard so much BS before.
Likewise... I'm surprised the narrative team came up with this dialogue but I'll consider it Luzaku's personal opinion for now.
"you disgusting creature" is expressed with such brutal honesty