The catch 22 with the numbers- is the "types" of people who want to learn more about personalities. Therefore you're going to get more Di, Oe and intuition (concept) types. And yes this applies to Sleep/Play too... you won't see the Sleep, they're at home or in the shadows lol.
Yeah, in one of their old classes on their website, they acknowledged that certain types gravitate towards personality theories. They also would use UA-cam to type a lot people, which UA-cam attracts certain types as well. 😊
Nice, I've been waiting for this video for a long time. I'd love to see a follow-up with more data or discussion. Some of this definitely tracks with my experience; when I think back to my time in school for example there were definitely more hyperactive or overly busy people (sleep last) and people that won't say a damn thing (blast last) than the opposite.
Loving your energy dom-ness here!!! Love seeing you're playing a game with the system like you're having a fun quiz!!!! Also Dave wanting to have Shan's pen because it writes better xD
Some theories. Academics: Ne/Si predominate. Need Si area of study and Ne interconnectivity between other areas of study. Especially for specific science domains. FF Ti/Ne predominate for sciences which seem more interconnected and open-world like environmental science, probably more MF for things like computer science, physics, mathematics? Closed system? Speculation (bc obv. Gates and Zuck are FF) Ni/Se is likely more common in philosophy/sociology, government type areas. Maybe not by as much though. I'd imagine that Ti is more philosophy and Te is more sociology/government. Independent theorists: you know, those who publish books about philosophy, short essays on their way of thinking, outside institutional bounds, gotta be M Ni dominated. "My way, my perspective". Likely masculine T also, because pushiness on "need to defend ideas against the world" (Kaczynski comes to mind, Wittgenstein, ) Movement leaders of new "my" ways of observing the world and acting within it: tend to be SBP/BSP and also Ni. "Burning" ideas need to be shared and enacted. Probably also observers bc they "see a pathway no one has seen before and this is the correct pathways because I don't see others that work, therefore follow me!" Soft-voiced singers (think your Jeff Buckleys, Marvin Gayes): FF Oe, blast last, feelers(?). Fluid and not feeling urge to stop the flow (Oi), so no buckling of sound. Slow build, world building of soft sounds. A consume's dream. Powerful Singers (think your Paul Robesons and Donny Hathaways): I suspect Oi because of forcing their individual voice into the discussion. Making space to be heard. What's with all these Ni-dominant rappers? I think it has to do with the control words give over a background flow of vibe information (instrumental). Words strung together stitch a pathway for the imagination, which is total freedom to the creative Ni.
challenge one thing - academics - there are multiple areas 1. ST predominance in science - people who do physics for example and prefer the experimental side to actually see results - the skepticism in the academic community around conclusions in general points to ST > N 2. Ni professor bias - I imagine people with high N blast would like academics to organize and blast concepts. Maybe if you exclude adjunct profs, high school, and community colleges 3. agree on Si-Ne otherwise but it's not predominant per se
@@Mrmonkeytoinfinity This makes sense to me. Theoretically I admire ST empiricism, but I don't often practice it. I always go to default intiutive rationalism and doubt(which helps with fluid in my skepticism)
For me, the most interesting part is the frequency of sexual modalities. It’s what you really notice as you progress in your working life and starts to become more noticeable, you can know early on what you’re responsible for as in the saviours (obviously without even knowing your type) but the more that is on the line later on the more the sexual modalities can be a pesky reality you have to deal with but can’t quite put your finger on. Especially if you’ve already chosen your career path, and there is a greater preponderance around you of a certain modality.
Would be interesting to know how many of the Ni/TI types they mentioned got switched into different types by Dave & Shan, and what they actually typed them as
It would most likely tend to be extroverted types so (S) or (C) as the most common mistype is saying your Play when your sleep and vice versa. As a typed SBP I and a bunch of others thought I was a Play saviour but it was just the BP in the middle that came of like me having Play as a savior.
Anecdote: I have a Ni Ti Sleep 15yo brother and a Ti savior (possibly lead) Sleep roommate. My brother typed himself as ENFJ the first time he got into myers briggs. This was when he was 13. Now that he’s 15 (a LOT of development happens from 13-17 it’s crazy) he’s convinced he’s a mastermind INTJ. okay I guess everyone thinks they’re NT masterminds, even I typed myself INTP at 16 but I’m actually ESFJ, but I can see why he thinks he’s MBTI INTJ because his world is about things - makes sense he’d relate to INTJ. and he’s sleep so INTJ instead of ENTJ.
MF-Ni/Ti-SC/B(P) #2 here! Being that type, it ain't all that it's hyped up to be. Sure, there's the responsibility to constantly process and refine that Ni-Ti worldview, but then you end up getting so stuck on reasons that it prevents you from accepting practical solutions in favor of unnecessarily complex logic; not to mention, there's huge sensory voids that get in the way of accurate personality typing. Also, by being (P), you end up being a square compared to the rest of your friends.
MF SiTe BP/S(C). Not the most common but not the most rare in real life. I do feel more rare in the OPS community. The vast majority are savior consume.
I can see that, but I think it’s because find your path (Ni) and find your passion (Fi) are common messages these days esp. amongst the younger generations in the US. Outside of OPS, they mean the same thing. So maybe it’s that.
Me too lol i actually don't see many reasons to prefer T over F they're both amazing and complex in their own ways. Now one thing that surprises me is the preference of OI over OE (even if i basically know that if you break down the the OI preferences it's just 90% of people who want to be the mystical all knowing third eyed NI and 10% people that typed themselves as SI lol) because if i could assign myself a type and become it the next day i'd rather be an OE than an OI due to the drive that makes them seek out new things and new perspectives - i think it's really an amazing function that enriches the mind and body.
If the most common coins, from your observations, are Observers, Di, Oe, slightly more Sensors, slightly more Feelers... then the least common coins would be Deciders, De, Oi, slightly more Intuitives, slightly more Thinkers. So that would make Te/Ni the most uncommon type. Maybe after that, because you thought Sensors & Intuitives were maybe as close as 55/45 in distribution, & also because you thought Feelers & Thinkers are pretty close as well: Te/Si, Fe/Ni & Fe/Si would be pretty uncommon. You said lead Play is more common than lead Sleep, so Sleep above Play would be more rare/uncommon. Also, when discussing Energy dominance, you ranked Sleep last as the most common & Play last as the most uncommon. You said lead Consume is more common than lead Blast, so having Blast above Consume would be more rate/uncommon. Also, when discussing Energy dominance, you ranked Blast last as the second most common & Consume last as the third most common. So, to recap, Blast above Consume, Sleep above Play, & Play last would be the most uncommon. Te/Ni, Te/Si, Fe/Ni & Fe/Si can all be BS/C(P). So...it seems that FM ENTJ Te/Ni BS/C(P) would be the most uncommon type. In order for INFJ Jumper Ni/Ti SC/B(P) to be the most uncommon type, you would have to throw out your opinions that observers with Di are the most common, since, ya know, Ni/Ti is an observer with Di. Dave seems to have a real grudge against 16 Personalities for describing INFJ as the rarest type &, since OP has Jumper types, it seems he's carried that into his own system: assuming that there are people who are choosing their types purely based on supposed rarity, & that the INFJ jumper will be seen by these people as even more rare, special & desirable than the regular INFJ, so people will start claiming to be INFJ jumpers for that reason alone. But...is that actually happening in reality or just in theory? I really have a hard time believing that people would find out about personality typology, look up what type is the rarest, & choose to claim that they're that type just to be "special", "unique", "rare", etc. Like...is anyone actually doing that? Maybe savior Di, with their need for significance, would do that. Especially first slot Fi. But I can't imagine ESTP Se/Ti Elliott Hulse discovering personality typology, Googling "rarest MBTI type" & then claiming to be an INFJ just to feel "special". Lol. I think if he or someone like him took the 16 Personalities test, he would probably get his real type, read it & be nodding along with the description. No one who is into weightlifting or sports or outdoors-y activities is really going to answer the questions in such a way that it would tell them that they're not a sensor/that they're an intuitive. But there are certain desperate-for-attention-and-special-snowflake-status types of people who might simply claim INFJ to feel special. I just can't imagine it is a lot of people though. I think INFPs Fi/Ne might legitimately confuse themselves for Ni/Fe after reading the description & typing themselves, or, after taking the 16 Personalities test, they might get INFJ & then when they read that it is the "rarest type", their Fi need for significance might like that & continue to cling to that type in spite of any later indications that they were mistyped. Maybe some particularly introverted ENFPs Ne/Fi might confuse Ne for Ni & Fi for Fe too. Whatever the case, I don't think people who mistype as INFJs picked INFJ just to be "rare". I think a lot of people who are into personality typology are genuinely trying to understand themselves & why their interactions with others have gone the way that they have. Anyway. Just some thoughts. Also, like it or not, I self-type as FF Ni/Ti SC/P(B). 😎 Lol. Observer freakouts; rage at things, more chill with people. Can roast myself & get roasted. Thinking above feeling. Self above tribe. Blast last. I "Blast" in Sleep/Consume. Energy dominant with goofy SF Play third. Double activated Se+Ti Consume (Got divorced two years ago next month & have become a recluse doing nothing but gorging myself of psychology-related content online & only leaving my apartment begrudgingly every two weeks for groceries. Double. Introvert.). Masculine Di push on self. Demon Se. Analysis paralysis. Can't stop planning to actually start doing. Thought I was in a lifelong "Ni-Ti loop" until I found OP. Downloaded Snoop Dogg as the voice for my TomTom GPS system years ago then found out he's MF Ni/Ti. Ahaha. That's relevant evidence, right? I relate a lot to Joyce Meng, especially when she said in an interview with Shan that, as a Blast laster, she never feels ready, even for the interview they were doing. Agreed. I could always consume more to be more sure. I feel like my reputation is on the line if I say something incorrect & with feminine sensory/poor memory when it comes to facts & masculine Ti...I don't want to claim something that isn't accurate. When I get around to Blasting...I want it go well, so I need a lot of advanced preparation. I've literally written out a script of what I wanted to say to someone & just read it out loud to them instead of trying to speak off the cuff. Anyway. I felt the need to prove that a bit after mentioning it. Lol. Even if no one else is convinced, that's chill. This is my type. I have cracked my own code & I'm benefitting from knowing this information. My intention for trying to understand my personality & the personalities of people I know has, from the beginning, simply been to become the best version of myself & to better relate to the people in my life. I'm not trying to identify as something I'm not in order to get attention from strangers online. I feel like now there's a bit of a stigma that's been created against anyone claiming to be INFJ or especially, in OP, a person who self-types as Ni/Ti. Like...some of us really are though. I also think savior intuitives who are double deciders & savior Sleep are more likely to be interested in personality & psychology than, say, Sleep last ESTJs in the first place, & also more likely to see themselves & self-type more accurately. Lastly, I don't think it should be automatically assumed that if a person self-typed as Ni/Ti but got officially typed as something else that they only thought they were Ni/Ti because they wanted to be a special snowflake. Give people the benefit of the doubt & try not to be so cynical & quick to make negative assumptions about other people's motives. But, I suppose it makes sense why a person who tends to make Ni guesses based on Fi feelings would gravitate toward doing that. Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edited for spelling/grammar.
@@amandesmiel3674 I struggle with that. My mom is an ESFP who describes herself as a "social butterfly" & someone who "goes with the flow" & "plays things by ear". Yesterday I was talking about my future & she remarked, "You have always been that way. I don't really think too much about the future!" Yeah, mom. I know. Everyone knows. Lol. My ex-husband was also an ESFP who said he was the "class clown" & "popular guy" in school & that he prefers to "just see how things turn out & what opportunities comes up" & he constantly complained about me projecting future outcomes, saying things like, "Tomorrow isn't even promised, so why are you planning for it?" If there are ESFPs who read the INFJ description on 16 Personalities & think it describes them better than ESFP, or who read about the cognitive functions & genuinely resonate with Ni/Fe...I think they would be few & far between, not "a lot". Wish we had more hard data on this, because otherwise it's all personal anecdotes.
Totally agree with you bro. I typed myself as a FF Ni/Ti SC/B(P). You seem like you have a firm understanding on typology. Have you found anyways to how you can discern between being a play third or blast third, when regarding the difference to our types? Also di you have any ideas to share on how you managed to crack the code. I would also like to state that I think I have humbly done the same, however it would be awesome to hear your prospective. Thank you brother
@@sullt766 Hi! When I was trying to determine whether I was Blast last or Play last, for me it didn't really take long to see that Blast last is what I'm experiencing. In a given day, I wake up & I am in my head, deep in thought already, quiet & introverted, eating breakfast & drinking coffee while reviewing things I was thinking about the day before. Sleep processing. Then I spend the majority of my day researching new info related to the main concept I am obsessed...errr, preoccupied with. Lol. Consume. Toward the end of my day, I get more energy! I've always thought I'm more of an evening person & not a morning person, & I'm realizing now that that perception is probably related to the fact that I become more extroverted & goofy around the time the sun is setting. At that point in my day, I'm like a cat that's been lounging around all day that suddenly gets the zoomies. Haha! That's the Play energy! For me, Play really does involve the Fe "ding-da-ding" music type of thing Dave & Shan talk about, in the sense that I start making ridiculous little songs off the top of my head or changing the words to known songs trying to get a rise out of other people & make them smile. I'll start (poorly, horribly, awkwardly) dancing around or saying crazy things in cartoon-y voices. I'll suddenly hop into a room like a bunny, grab something & hop back out with no explanation, fully hoping to make the other person at least mildly amused. I might enter a room like a secret agent fake-stealthily while actually being super obvious & loudly imitating the Mission Impossible music as I somersault around the house & peak around corners with my fingers pointed like a firearm. Ahahaha. What a weirdo. When I'm in that mood, I want someone to look at me smiling & chuckle while asking, "What in the world are you doing?" It's fun! Makes things interesting. I'm free entertainment when I'm in that state. Relative to how much time I spend in a day in my own head, not talking, reading articles, watching videos & imagining future scenarios, the amount of time I am goofing off like that is a fraction of my day. But it is indeed usually at least part of my day. Blast on the other hand...days or even weeks on end can pass where I don't even use it. There are often many opportunities where I should have spoken up & pointed out a pattern of behavior I've noticed in another person's treatment of me that is bothering me...but I'm so afraid of them having a chaotic, dramatic emotional reaction to that & potentially wrecking my life, seeking revenge against me, or otherwise making things more difficult for me because of it that I bite my tongue & just put up with letting people treat me like a doormat. My fear of Se chaos prevents me from speaking up for myself & telling people what's what because, in the past, I've found that emotionally immature people retaliate in the most petty & spiteful ways when their own poor behaviors are even gently pointed out. I've been punished for "Blasting" by my early caregivers & basically trying to set boundaries with them by, for example, being kicked out of their house shortly after my 18th birthday & being made to crash on people's couches & bounce from place-to-place for two years. I've been cut off financially, had a certain family member refuse to help me in a time of need, etc., all as revenge for trying to have a much-needed conversation with them about some unhealthy patterns of behavior I had noticed in our relationship. Another way Blast last has shown up for me was especially evident in school & even more so in college, where I studied Journalism. I'm particularly adept at copyediting &, man, I would continuously review my known information & keep rereading my essay or speech or whatever & keep revising it & tweaking it & perfecting it alllll the way up until I HAD to print it out/turn it in/present it/submit it online. If it wasn't for deadlines, I would just hold onto that assignment & keep editing it FOR EVAAAR! I never want to turn things in. It could be more perfect! It could be more concise! It could be more engaging! It could be more clear with even more compelling facts! I could develop a more interesting, attention-getting opening sentence! I could make it an even more fascinating read...if I just had more time to re-work it! /facepalm/ That's how I know that I'm Blast last. In any given day, I always eventually enter into Play energy & "get the zoomies" like a crazed cat & squeal & sing & do goofy dances, even whilst living alone! Ahahaha. If any of my neighbors ever hear me they will think I'm insane. 😅 But Blasting? I avoid it if I can or at least delay it until it can't be delayed anymore. I've already written a ton, but to be as brief as I can manage, regarding how I "cracked the code"...it took a lot of self-reflection & watching these videos over the span of many months & then re-watching some of them as I had more & more epiphanies as to how this stuff related to me. I also watch the channels of some other OP enthusiasts (Joyce Meng, LiJo, Binyamin, ENFP Male/Personality Trainer/Kendrick), joined various unofficial OP Facebook groups, read a bit on the subreddit, & found & studied a few Google Docs & Google Sheets made by people interested in OP. The hardest things for me were seeing & accepting that I am indeed Self above Tribe, & determining whether I was masculine or feminine Se. I think because I'm feminine Fe & I feel so aware of, attuned to & affected by other people's emotions, I felt so empathetic that I thought I must surely put others before myself. And while I am indeed very aware of Fe & do consider it a great deal when making decisions...at the end of the day, if it goes against my own Ti logic...I quietly do for myself what makes the most sense whenever I can. Realizing I often put my logic above the desires of others was a big eye-opener for me. I'm Self above Tribe! But just slightly, as I'm still a double decider. In regards to mSe or fSe, because Ni & Se are at polar extremes for me it was hard to see which one was feminine & which one was masculine. I knew I didn't force & smash the sensory because I'm actually really delicate & gentle with things...but as someone with a journalism & fact-checking background, I wanted to be able to say I "will fight you on the facts", rather than the patterns. But, in reality, I *am* more insistent on the trends, themes & connections I've noticed & I get really upset when someone scoffs at & dismisses my observations. It also really frustrates me when, on rare occasions, I make myself vulnerable enough to Blast my deeply personal Ni vision or the Ni connections I've observed & it isn't Fe well-received by others & they say, "How can you know that?" & I can't feminine Se remember how I know & really struggle to explain myself! My MM Ni/Ti gets hurt, insulted & offended when people suggest that I'm not making sense simply because I can't articulate my inner world in a way that they can easily & quickly understand. There's just too much info to go over & without my computer there to help me walk them through all of the sources I've saved (since I outsource my storing of info to my computer instead of keeping it in my brain, lol), I have a hard time "proving" my idea to them on the spot. /le sigh/ So I have come to accept that I'm feminine Se. Which makes me FF Tester/Visual. And I am indeed such a visual person! I even turn on captions when watching videos because it helps me follow along better than just hearing it alone. Yeah, there's no way I was MF Audio/Kinesthetic. Lol. I just so badly wanted to believe that I would fight people on the facts & that I was movable with my concepts/theories/ideas/observed connections/recognized patterns & willing to adjust them really easily. Ahahaha. It's funny to me now that I thought that; that was one of the areas I was most struggling to see myself. So, yeah. Sorry for so much writing! It's a lengthy subject, but I hope at least some of that was helpful for you!
I just spent years trying to narrow down my objective type and now, at the end, you're just slamming down 7/8 coins I ended up on (only difference being Observer), saying it's the type everyone wants to be. Are you seriously gonna make me go through this whole thing all over again.
don't get mad at the information bro, they're just playing around lol... You are probably info dominant like the type you think you are (or possibly are), so at least there is that!
The FM last makes sense. I've come to the conclusion that I'm Se_F Ti_M and kind of explains the feeling that I'm the oddball ESTP. My sense is that most will be MM or MF. The Ni_M always elbowing their way in to the party wanting to show their cool ideas at 4 in morning.
FM is actually masculine intuition (F) and masculine De (M), so you would actually (based on description) be an FF like the most of us 😁. Welcome to club
@@henryayanna9401Oops. No wonder their M F notation didn't make sense. lol So "M" is in relation to the extroverted function? No matter where in the stack? I could still be FM, someone observing me familiar with OP could say my Fe is M. There is that thing about not seeing yourself objectively.
@@henryayanna9401 That is indeed something to take into consideration. 1. People that are attracted to OPS, will possibly be certain types more often than others 2. People who are celebs, will likely be certain types more often than others 3. Only a percentage (whether that is high or not) of people typed by OPS will be a correct typing While all 3 of such (and others) factors will of course distort the outcomes to an uncertain degree, also them guessing the numbers instead of calculating them adds just another (fourth) distotion, which makes it even more unreliable and thus meaningless.
They probably type people all the time in their day to day, like can not not do that, and get a much better notion (even if vague) of the numbers that way, than if they were going to omg, stop to type together and put in a doc. And for the ones they do do that, they are the typings that are going to probably not be very representative of the general human population, since there would, yes, be way more selection.
The INFJ unicorn. But I agree on the process. I have come across a set of theory for nurture vs nature. Those who understood it will purposely lead you to follow your bias. But the worst part is having no direction at all. That's when the tides become a problem.
But why though? Why does everyone find value in being the same type Ni/Ti ? Theoretically, shouldn't different types be wanting to be other different types?
I had the same thought at first. But it's Play saviour, not Play lead. So that includes the CPs. Suppose CP must be the their guess at the most common saviour pair. By quite a margin if Di and Play are both most common.
Definitely more S than N. That's why there are plenty of people willing to do millions of boring repetitive jobs. Definitely more F than T. That's why deep thinking is so rare in the world.
The preference of repetitiveness is more likely associated with OI over OE rather than S over N, which already defeats your point. SE seeks variety as well. S over N instead would be more likely to engage in a job that requires attention to details rather than big picture thinking. No function is better than the other, they just excel at different things. And even thinkers, when don't respect their F, can be shallow as hell. A human without emotion who only works on logic becomes essentially a robot. No depth there. Just 2+2 figuring out and block banging for the sake of it. You have to be emotionally driven somehow to make something REALLY deep.
@@randomraccoon8 But OP says that you're bad if you stay in Townsfolkland, so can't N see the pattern of badness in staying in boring repetitive Townsfolkland jobs?
@@farisabdulhakim3112 Damn💀 How do you work on improving those functions? I've been trying to improve my Se/Si, Se I think is pretty straightforward but with Si I think I just end up doing Se things.
@@dawnriddler I have demon M-Si 4th, still struggling. I think if you have a masculine demon, you will use your demon way more intense in a swing (like when I do cleaning, I will clean my stuff beyond perfect or more like ocd. But still, I am using it rarely). I've been working on ease that function and trying to use it more often.
Witness the bleeding edge of scientific research and mathematical inference. These towering figures of statistical prowess utilize the full faculties of human intellect to produce a truly unparalleled accounting of our minds.
I’m surprised you say S and N are so close. I’m an INTJ and I’ve always felt we ideas, open-minded, abstract people are definitely in the minority. Are you guys just thinking there are equal numbers of S and N because of who you type? Wouldn’t there be far more Sensors who would never go to you so you’ll never see those large numbers?
thanks for the content, enjoyed some of it but my god you guys are so ridiculous so often, hilarious to know that you self-identify as intj/entj vs. intp/esfp, legit you guys are 🦆
The catch 22 with the numbers- is the "types" of people who want to learn more about personalities. Therefore you're going to get more Di, Oe and intuition (concept) types. And yes this applies to Sleep/Play too... you won't see the Sleep, they're at home or in the shadows lol.
Yeah, in one of their old classes on their website, they acknowledged that certain types gravitate towards personality theories. They also would use UA-cam to type a lot people, which UA-cam attracts certain types as well. 😊
Sleeps are more in their box, their afk anywhere else
Nice, I've been waiting for this video for a long time. I'd love to see a follow-up with more data or discussion. Some of this definitely tracks with my experience; when I think back to my time in school for example there were definitely more hyperactive or overly busy people (sleep last) and people that won't say a damn thing (blast last) than the opposite.
Loving your energy dom-ness here!!! Love seeing you're playing a game with the system like you're having a fun quiz!!!! Also Dave wanting to have Shan's pen because it writes better xD
Some theories.
Academics: Ne/Si predominate. Need Si area of study and Ne interconnectivity between other areas of study. Especially for specific science domains. FF Ti/Ne predominate for sciences which seem more interconnected and open-world like environmental science, probably more MF for things like computer science, physics, mathematics? Closed system? Speculation (bc obv. Gates and Zuck are FF)
Ni/Se is likely more common in philosophy/sociology, government type areas. Maybe not by as much though. I'd imagine that Ti is more philosophy and Te is more sociology/government.
Independent theorists: you know, those who publish books about philosophy, short essays on their way of thinking, outside institutional bounds, gotta be M Ni dominated. "My way, my perspective". Likely masculine T also, because pushiness on "need to defend ideas against the world" (Kaczynski comes to mind, Wittgenstein, )
Movement leaders of new "my" ways of observing the world and acting within it: tend to be SBP/BSP and also Ni. "Burning" ideas need to be shared and enacted. Probably also observers bc they "see a pathway no one has seen before and this is the correct pathways because I don't see others that work, therefore follow me!"
Soft-voiced singers (think your Jeff Buckleys, Marvin Gayes): FF Oe, blast last, feelers(?). Fluid and not feeling urge to stop the flow (Oi), so no buckling of sound. Slow build, world building of soft sounds. A consume's dream.
Powerful Singers (think your Paul Robesons and Donny Hathaways): I suspect Oi because of forcing their individual voice into the discussion. Making space to be heard.
What's with all these Ni-dominant rappers? I think it has to do with the control words give over a background flow of vibe information (instrumental). Words strung together stitch a pathway for the imagination, which is total freedom to the creative Ni.
wouldnt ni converge areas of study more so than ne, who would diverge from any points? in a way theyre two halves of the same coin but differ
challenge one thing - academics - there are multiple areas
1. ST predominance in science - people who do physics for example and prefer the experimental side to actually see results - the skepticism in the academic community around conclusions in general points to ST > N
2. Ni professor bias - I imagine people with high N blast would like academics to organize and blast concepts. Maybe if you exclude adjunct profs, high school, and community colleges
3. agree on Si-Ne otherwise but it's not predominant per se
@@Mrmonkeytoinfinity You're going to see lots of ST in engineering and applied science and technology.
@@Mrmonkeytoinfinity This makes sense to me. Theoretically I admire ST empiricism, but I don't often practice it. I always go to default intiutive rationalism and doubt(which helps with fluid in my skepticism)
Give examples on Ni dom rappers please
For me, the most interesting part is the frequency of sexual modalities. It’s what you really notice as you progress in your working life and starts to become more noticeable, you can know early on what you’re responsible for as in the saviours (obviously without even knowing your type) but the more that is on the line later on the more the sexual modalities can be a pesky reality you have to deal with but can’t quite put your finger on. Especially if you’ve already chosen your career path, and there is a greater preponderance around you of a certain modality.
Would be interesting to know how many of the Ni/TI types they mentioned got switched into different types by Dave & Shan, and what they actually typed them as
It would most likely tend to be extroverted types so (S) or (C) as the most common mistype is saying your Play when your sleep and vice versa. As a typed SBP I and a bunch of others thought I was a Play saviour but it was just the BP in the middle that came of like me having Play as a savior.
Anecdote: I have a Ni Ti Sleep 15yo brother and a Ti savior (possibly lead) Sleep roommate. My brother typed himself as ENFJ the first time he got into myers briggs. This was when he was 13. Now that he’s 15 (a LOT of development happens from 13-17 it’s crazy) he’s convinced he’s a mastermind INTJ. okay I guess everyone thinks they’re NT masterminds, even I typed myself INTP at 16 but I’m actually ESFJ, but I can see why he thinks he’s MBTI INTJ because his world is about things - makes sense he’d relate to INTJ. and he’s sleep so INTJ instead of ENTJ.
Love this content!! Keep it coming
MF-Ni/Ti-SC/B(P) #2 here! Being that type, it ain't all that it's hyped up to be. Sure, there's the responsibility to constantly process and refine that Ni-Ti worldview, but then you end up getting so stuck on reasons that it prevents you from accepting practical solutions in favor of unnecessarily complex logic; not to mention, there's huge sensory voids that get in the way of accurate personality typing. Also, by being (P), you end up being a square compared to the rest of your friends.
Please make a follow up explaining your reasoning!
Excellent demonstration of Te bias & The Grandfather Clock Effect!
Thank You!
🤓
I feel like the modalities might not be distributed evenly around the world. Like non-western cultures might have more FMs and MMs.
MF SiTe BP/S(C). Not the most common but not the most rare in real life. I do feel more rare in the OPS community. The vast majority are savior consume.
💖💖💖💖💖
As a FF SeFi CPBS, I am proud to be so common, lmao. 😂
Being common just means you're evolutionarily made for survival and efficiency 😎
Ironically it's rare to be so common
same-- FF FiSe CPSB xD
But that's great, it means you have a larger pool of people with whom you have a lot in common.
SAME
Ofc! It's them "As an INFJ" comments
"Stop talking it out!" "I'm Te, bro."
Y'all's relationship was meant to be. Omfg
YES I KNEW IT! My type is the exact opposite as the most popular one. That means I’m the rarest and bestest!
So it's Se/Fe ?
Haha... I currently think I'm PBSC Ne/Te, so does that make me the second or third bestest and rarest?
and i’m the most popular one! wanna kiss
I would think people who get typed through them would be biased toward F Di because that type would be more likely to want to work on themselves.
wow, this was fun. I only failed to guess the energy coin as I didn't even know how you were going about it. modality, I guessed FF, so that counts.
Did you have another channel around a decade ago? SuperDavePower for some reason pops in my head
It was DaveSuperPowers before Objective Personality
imagine if the world really was full of blasters.... hahaha
I too am NiTi lead sleep INFJ😂
I thought I was that too or at least lead consume 🤣
Im a bit surprised everyone "wants" to be a thinker, i thought everybody wants to be Fi or somethin...
I can see that, but I think it’s because find your path (Ni) and find your passion (Fi) are common messages these days esp. amongst the younger generations in the US. Outside of OPS, they mean the same thing. So maybe it’s that.
Really? Everyone spurts “facts over feelings” every 2 seconds.
Me too lol i actually don't see many reasons to prefer T over F they're both amazing and complex in their own ways. Now one thing that surprises me is the preference of OI over OE (even if i basically know that if you break down the the OI preferences it's just 90% of people who want to be the mystical all knowing third eyed NI and 10% people that typed themselves as SI lol) because if i could assign myself a type and become it the next day i'd rather be an OE than an OI due to the drive that makes them seek out new things and new perspectives - i think it's really an amazing function that enriches the mind and body.
cause of the ignorant community stereotype that thinkers smart, feelers dumb.
If the most common coins, from your observations, are Observers, Di, Oe, slightly more Sensors, slightly more Feelers...
then the least common coins would be Deciders, De, Oi, slightly more Intuitives, slightly more Thinkers.
So that would make Te/Ni the most uncommon type.
Maybe after that, because you thought Sensors & Intuitives were maybe as close as 55/45 in distribution, & also because you thought Feelers & Thinkers are pretty close as well:
Te/Si, Fe/Ni & Fe/Si would be pretty uncommon.
You said lead Play is more common than lead Sleep, so Sleep above Play would be more rare/uncommon. Also, when discussing Energy dominance, you ranked Sleep last as the most common & Play last as the most uncommon.
You said lead Consume is more common than lead Blast, so having Blast above Consume would be more rate/uncommon. Also, when discussing Energy dominance, you ranked Blast last as the second most common & Consume last as the third most common.
So, to recap, Blast above Consume, Sleep above Play, & Play last would be the most uncommon.
Te/Ni, Te/Si, Fe/Ni & Fe/Si can all be BS/C(P).
So...it seems that FM ENTJ Te/Ni BS/C(P) would be the most uncommon type.
In order for INFJ Jumper Ni/Ti SC/B(P) to be the most uncommon type, you would have to throw out your opinions that observers with Di are the most common, since, ya know, Ni/Ti is an observer with Di.
Dave seems to have a real grudge against 16 Personalities for describing INFJ as the rarest type &, since OP has Jumper types, it seems he's carried that into his own system: assuming that there are people who are choosing their types purely based on supposed rarity, & that the INFJ jumper will be seen by these people as even more rare, special & desirable than the regular INFJ, so people will start claiming to be INFJ jumpers for that reason alone. But...is that actually happening in reality or just in theory?
I really have a hard time believing that people would find out about personality typology, look up what type is the rarest, & choose to claim that they're that type just to be "special", "unique", "rare", etc. Like...is anyone actually doing that?
Maybe savior Di, with their need for significance, would do that. Especially first slot Fi.
But I can't imagine ESTP Se/Ti Elliott Hulse discovering personality typology, Googling "rarest MBTI type" & then claiming to be an INFJ just to feel "special". Lol.
I think if he or someone like him took the 16 Personalities test, he would probably get his real type, read it & be nodding along with the description. No one who is into weightlifting or sports or outdoors-y activities is really going to answer the questions in such a way that it would tell them that they're not a sensor/that they're an intuitive.
But there are certain desperate-for-attention-and-special-snowflake-status types of people who might simply claim INFJ to feel special. I just can't imagine it is a lot of people though.
I think INFPs Fi/Ne might legitimately confuse themselves for Ni/Fe after reading the description & typing themselves, or, after taking the 16 Personalities test, they might get INFJ & then when they read that it is the "rarest type", their Fi need for significance might like that & continue to cling to that type in spite of any later indications that they were mistyped.
Maybe some particularly introverted ENFPs Ne/Fi might confuse Ne for Ni & Fi for Fe too.
Whatever the case, I don't think people who mistype as INFJs picked INFJ just to be "rare".
I think a lot of people who are into personality typology are genuinely trying to understand themselves & why their interactions with others have gone the way that they have.
Anyway. Just some thoughts.
Also, like it or not, I self-type as FF Ni/Ti SC/P(B). 😎 Lol.
Observer freakouts; rage at things, more chill with people. Can roast myself & get roasted. Thinking above feeling. Self above tribe. Blast last. I "Blast" in Sleep/Consume. Energy dominant with goofy SF Play third. Double activated Se+Ti Consume (Got divorced two years ago next month & have become a recluse doing nothing but gorging myself of psychology-related content online & only leaving my apartment begrudgingly every two weeks for groceries. Double. Introvert.). Masculine Di push on self. Demon Se. Analysis paralysis. Can't stop planning to actually start doing. Thought I was in a lifelong "Ni-Ti loop" until I found OP. Downloaded Snoop Dogg as the voice for my TomTom GPS system years ago then found out he's MF Ni/Ti. Ahaha. That's relevant evidence, right?
I relate a lot to Joyce Meng, especially when she said in an interview with Shan that, as a Blast laster, she never feels ready, even for the interview they were doing. Agreed. I could always consume more to be more sure. I feel like my reputation is on the line if I say something incorrect & with feminine sensory/poor memory when it comes to facts & masculine Ti...I don't want to claim something that isn't accurate. When I get around to Blasting...I want it go well, so I need a lot of advanced preparation. I've literally written out a script of what I wanted to say to someone & just read it out loud to them instead of trying to speak off the cuff.
Anyway. I felt the need to prove that a bit after mentioning it. Lol. Even if no one else is convinced, that's chill. This is my type. I have cracked my own code & I'm benefitting from knowing this information. My intention for trying to understand my personality & the personalities of people I know has, from the beginning, simply been to become the best version of myself & to better relate to the people in my life. I'm not trying to identify as something I'm not in order to get attention from strangers online.
I feel like now there's a bit of a stigma that's been created against anyone claiming to be INFJ or especially, in OP, a person who self-types as Ni/Ti. Like...some of us really are though. I also think savior intuitives who are double deciders & savior Sleep are more likely to be interested in personality & psychology than, say, Sleep last ESTJs in the first place, & also more likely to see themselves & self-type more accurately.
Lastly, I don't think it should be automatically assumed that if a person self-typed as Ni/Ti but got officially typed as something else that they only thought they were Ni/Ti because they wanted to be a special snowflake. Give people the benefit of the doubt & try not to be so cynical & quick to make negative assumptions about other people's motives. But, I suppose it makes sense why a person who tends to make Ni guesses based on Fi feelings would gravitate toward doing that.
Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edited for spelling/grammar.
Actually a lot of ESFP think they are INFJ
@@amandesmiel3674 I struggle with that. My mom is an ESFP who describes herself as a "social butterfly" & someone who "goes with the flow" & "plays things by ear". Yesterday I was talking about my future & she remarked, "You have always been that way. I don't really think too much about the future!" Yeah, mom. I know. Everyone knows. Lol.
My ex-husband was also an ESFP who said he was the "class clown" & "popular guy" in school & that he prefers to "just see how things turn out & what opportunities comes up" & he constantly complained about me projecting future outcomes, saying things like, "Tomorrow isn't even promised, so why are you planning for it?"
If there are ESFPs who read the INFJ description on 16 Personalities & think it describes them better than ESFP, or who read about the cognitive functions & genuinely resonate with Ni/Fe...I think they would be few & far between, not "a lot".
Wish we had more hard data on this, because otherwise it's all personal anecdotes.
Totally agree with you bro. I typed myself as a FF Ni/Ti SC/B(P).
You seem like you have a firm understanding on typology. Have you found anyways to how you can discern between being a play third or blast third, when regarding the difference to our types? Also di you have any ideas to share on how you managed to crack the code. I would also like to state that I think I have humbly done the same, however it would be awesome to hear your prospective. Thank you brother
@@sullt766 Hi! When I was trying to determine whether I was Blast last or Play last, for me it didn't really take long to see that Blast last is what I'm experiencing.
In a given day, I wake up & I am in my head, deep in thought already, quiet & introverted, eating breakfast & drinking coffee while reviewing things I was thinking about the day before. Sleep processing.
Then I spend the majority of my day researching new info related to the main concept I am obsessed...errr, preoccupied with. Lol. Consume.
Toward the end of my day, I get more energy! I've always thought I'm more of an evening person & not a morning person, & I'm realizing now that that perception is probably related to the fact that I become more extroverted & goofy around the time the sun is setting.
At that point in my day, I'm like a cat that's been lounging around all day that suddenly gets the zoomies. Haha! That's the Play energy!
For me, Play really does involve the Fe "ding-da-ding" music type of thing Dave & Shan talk about, in the sense that I start making ridiculous little songs off the top of my head or changing the words to known songs trying to get a rise out of other people & make them smile.
I'll start (poorly, horribly, awkwardly) dancing around or saying crazy things in cartoon-y voices. I'll suddenly hop into a room like a bunny, grab something & hop back out with no explanation, fully hoping to make the other person at least mildly amused.
I might enter a room like a secret agent fake-stealthily while actually being super obvious & loudly imitating the Mission Impossible music as I somersault around the house & peak around corners with my fingers pointed like a firearm. Ahahaha. What a weirdo.
When I'm in that mood, I want someone to look at me smiling & chuckle while asking, "What in the world are you doing?" It's fun! Makes things interesting. I'm free entertainment when I'm in that state.
Relative to how much time I spend in a day in my own head, not talking, reading articles, watching videos & imagining future scenarios, the amount of time I am goofing off like that is a fraction of my day. But it is indeed usually at least part of my day.
Blast on the other hand...days or even weeks on end can pass where I don't even use it.
There are often many opportunities where I should have spoken up & pointed out a pattern of behavior I've noticed in another person's treatment of me that is bothering me...but I'm so afraid of them having a chaotic, dramatic emotional reaction to that & potentially wrecking my life, seeking revenge against me, or otherwise making things more difficult for me because of it that I bite my tongue & just put up with letting people treat me like a doormat.
My fear of Se chaos prevents me from speaking up for myself & telling people what's what because, in the past, I've found that emotionally immature people retaliate in the most petty & spiteful ways when their own poor behaviors are even gently pointed out.
I've been punished for "Blasting" by my early caregivers & basically trying to set boundaries with them by, for example, being kicked out of their house shortly after my 18th birthday & being made to crash on people's couches & bounce from place-to-place for two years.
I've been cut off financially, had a certain family member refuse to help me in a time of need, etc., all as revenge for trying to have a much-needed conversation with them about some unhealthy patterns of behavior I had noticed in our relationship.
Another way Blast last has shown up for me was especially evident in school & even more so in college, where I studied Journalism.
I'm particularly adept at copyediting &, man, I would continuously review my known information & keep rereading my essay or speech or whatever & keep revising it & tweaking it & perfecting it alllll the way up until I HAD to print it out/turn it in/present it/submit it online.
If it wasn't for deadlines, I would just hold onto that assignment & keep editing it FOR EVAAAR! I never want to turn things in. It could be more perfect! It could be more concise! It could be more engaging! It could be more clear with even more compelling facts! I could develop a more interesting, attention-getting opening sentence! I could make it an even more fascinating read...if I just had more time to re-work it! /facepalm/
That's how I know that I'm Blast last. In any given day, I always eventually enter into Play energy & "get the zoomies" like a crazed cat & squeal & sing & do goofy dances, even whilst living alone! Ahahaha. If any of my neighbors ever hear me they will think I'm insane. 😅
But Blasting? I avoid it if I can or at least delay it until it can't be delayed anymore.
I've already written a ton, but to be as brief as I can manage, regarding how I "cracked the code"...it took a lot of self-reflection & watching these videos over the span of many months & then re-watching some of them as I had more & more epiphanies as to how this stuff related to me.
I also watch the channels of some other OP enthusiasts (Joyce Meng, LiJo, Binyamin, ENFP Male/Personality Trainer/Kendrick), joined various unofficial OP Facebook groups, read a bit on the subreddit, & found & studied a few Google Docs & Google Sheets made by people interested in OP.
The hardest things for me were seeing & accepting that I am indeed Self above Tribe, & determining whether I was masculine or feminine Se.
I think because I'm feminine Fe & I feel so aware of, attuned to & affected by other people's emotions, I felt so empathetic that I thought I must surely put others before myself.
And while I am indeed very aware of Fe & do consider it a great deal when making decisions...at the end of the day, if it goes against my own Ti logic...I quietly do for myself what makes the most sense whenever I can. Realizing I often put my logic above the desires of others was a big eye-opener for me. I'm Self above Tribe! But just slightly, as I'm still a double decider.
In regards to mSe or fSe, because Ni & Se are at polar extremes for me it was hard to see which one was feminine & which one was masculine. I knew I didn't force & smash the sensory because I'm actually really delicate & gentle with things...but as someone with a journalism & fact-checking background, I wanted to be able to say I "will fight you on the facts", rather than the patterns.
But, in reality, I *am* more insistent on the trends, themes & connections I've noticed & I get really upset when someone scoffs at & dismisses my observations.
It also really frustrates me when, on rare occasions, I make myself vulnerable enough to Blast my deeply personal Ni vision or the Ni connections I've observed & it isn't Fe well-received by others & they say, "How can you know that?" & I can't feminine Se remember how I know & really struggle to explain myself!
My MM Ni/Ti gets hurt, insulted & offended when people suggest that I'm not making sense simply because I can't articulate my inner world in a way that they can easily & quickly understand. There's just too much info to go over & without my computer there to help me walk them through all of the sources I've saved (since I outsource my storing of info to my computer instead of keeping it in my brain, lol), I have a hard time "proving" my idea to them on the spot. /le sigh/
So I have come to accept that I'm feminine Se. Which makes me FF Tester/Visual. And I am indeed such a visual person! I even turn on captions when watching videos because it helps me follow along better than just hearing it alone. Yeah, there's no way I was MF Audio/Kinesthetic. Lol.
I just so badly wanted to believe that I would fight people on the facts & that I was movable with my concepts/theories/ideas/observed connections/recognized patterns & willing to adjust them really easily. Ahahaha. It's funny to me now that I thought that; that was one of the areas I was most struggling to see myself.
So, yeah. Sorry for so much writing! It's a lengthy subject, but I hope at least some of that was helpful for you!
Any ESTP who did that would be kicked out of the tribe and be forced to wander the wilderness in search of a new identity.
I just spent years trying to narrow down my objective type and now, at the end, you're just slamming down 7/8 coins I ended up on (only difference being Observer), saying it's the type everyone wants to be. Are you seriously gonna make me go through this whole thing all over again.
yes
don't get mad at the information bro, they're just playing around lol... You are probably info dominant like the type you think you are (or possibly are), so at least there is that!
The FM last makes sense. I've come to the conclusion that I'm Se_F Ti_M and kind of explains the feeling that I'm the oddball ESTP. My sense is that most will be MM or MF. The Ni_M always elbowing their way in to the party wanting to show their cool ideas at 4 in morning.
FM is actually masculine intuition (F) and masculine De (M), so you would actually (based on description) be an FF like the most of us 😁. Welcome to club
@@henryayanna9401Oops. No wonder their M F notation didn't make sense. lol
So "M" is in relation to the extroverted function? No matter where in the stack?
I could still be FM, someone observing me familiar with OP could say my Fe is M. There is that thing about not seeing yourself objectively.
If they have a database with all their typngs, then why after the guessing not actually giving the correct answers?
I was waiting for them to say- and here's the facts.... nope!
They haven't accessed a representative sample of the general population
@@henryayanna9401 That is indeed something to take into consideration.
1. People that are attracted to OPS, will possibly be certain types more often than others
2. People who are celebs, will likely be certain types more often than others
3. Only a percentage (whether that is high or not) of people typed by OPS will be a correct typing
While all 3 of such (and others) factors will of course distort the outcomes to an uncertain degree, also them guessing the numbers instead of calculating them adds just another (fourth) distotion, which makes it even more unreliable and thus meaningless.
They probably type people all the time in their day to day, like can not not do that, and get a much better notion (even if vague) of the numbers that way, than if they were going to omg, stop to type together and put in a doc. And for the ones they do do that, they are the typings that are going to probably not be very representative of the general human population, since there would, yes, be way more selection.
Because there database is not a fair representation of the general population.
The INFJ unicorn. But I agree on the process. I have come across a set of theory for nurture vs nature. Those who understood it will purposely lead you to follow your bias. But the worst part is having no direction at all. That's when the tides become a problem.
But why though? Why does everyone find value in being the same type Ni/Ti ?
Theoretically, shouldn't different types be wanting to be other different types?
If play is the most common lead animal, how the hell does Di become the most common saviour function?
I had the same thought at first. But it's Play saviour, not Play lead. So that includes the CPs. Suppose CP must be the their guess at the most common saviour pair. By quite a margin if Di and Play are both most common.
I will confirm as a MM Si/Fi SB/C(P), we are the least popular.
Bias because the intuitives like this mbti shit more
WHYD IT STOP
I definitely thought I was infj or Intj. But I now realized it’s because my relationship with sleep. Lol
2:58 coming from an entire family of Te people, it seems like everyone and their damn mother is a thinker.
OMFFFFFGGGGGGGGG SHAN IS SOO PRETTTYYYYYYYYYYY
y'all are too cute
I actually think I'm an INFJ 😂 but not sure if standard or jumper, because my degree and job require a lot of Ti so I have been favoring that function
okay, don't punch me
FM-Ni/Ti-SB/C(P)
it is not SC/B(P) 😅
D, De, Oe, N, F, Energy, E
What type am I?
Definitely more S than N. That's why there are plenty of people willing to do millions of boring repetitive jobs. Definitely more F than T. That's why deep thinking is so rare in the world.
The preference of repetitiveness is more likely associated with OI over OE rather than S over N, which already defeats your point. SE seeks variety as well. S over N instead would be more likely to engage in a job that requires attention to details rather than big picture thinking. No function is better than the other, they just excel at different things. And even thinkers, when don't respect their F, can be shallow as hell. A human without emotion who only works on logic becomes essentially a robot. No depth there. Just 2+2 figuring out and block banging for the sake of it. You have to be emotionally driven somehow to make something REALLY deep.
@@randomraccoon8 But OP says that you're bad if you stay in Townsfolkland, so can't N see the pattern of badness in staying in boring repetitive Townsfolkland jobs?
@@martingifford5415 ok deep thinker
Why everyone wants to be intuitive 🤦🏻♂️
Idk, to me it seems like only Sensors want to be Intuitive, being an Intuitive with demon Sensory is hell.
@@dawnriddler yeah, especially single observer intuitive. Reality hits like a truck 💀
@@farisabdulhakim3112 Damn💀 How do you work on improving those functions?
I've been trying to improve my Se/Si, Se I think is pretty straightforward but with Si I think I just end up doing Se things.
@@dawnriddler I have demon M-Si 4th, still struggling.
I think if you have a masculine demon, you will use your demon way more intense in a swing (like when I do cleaning, I will clean my stuff beyond perfect or more like ocd. But still, I am using it rarely).
I've been working on ease that function and trying to use it more often.
@@dawnriddler I feel this being an ENTP with Si 4th sucks sooo much...
Witness the bleeding edge of scientific research and mathematical inference. These towering figures of statistical prowess utilize the full faculties of human intellect to produce a truly unparalleled accounting of our minds.
what is shanny’s mbti? seems like enfj or infj
She's Te/Se, an ENTJ jumper.
@@someonerandom713 oh hmm i was way off
@@Brickwilliams What made you think xNFJ?
@@someonerandom713 she seems empathetic and supportive to me
@@Brickwilliams Yeah.. Those traits aren't exclusive to Fe 😅
I’m surprised you say S and N are so close. I’m an INTJ and I’ve always felt we ideas, open-minded, abstract people are definitely in the minority. Are you guys just thinking there are equal numbers of S and N because of who you type? Wouldn’t there be far more Sensors who would never go to you so you’ll never see those large numbers?
Lol that's the type I think I am
But... Where is Sensory statistics? ;)
Good question but these 2 are intj and entj.... they want the Ni general idea or pattern them can extrapolate.
thanks for the content, enjoyed some of it but my god you guys are so ridiculous so often, hilarious to know that you self-identify as intj/entj vs. intp/esfp, legit you guys are 🦆
Their marriage is failing just like my parents
Hwhat? How do you know?
@@lonelypad3993 clearly through intuitive (Ni) based deduction (Ti)
@@anartist8087 I am neither ni/se nor Ti/fe in other words I am stupid in this
So putting it together most people are FF ENFP/ESFP. consume play
Most ppl seem like aggressive jerks to me = M De