You mentioned that it's possible the metal hull messed with compass leading to a grounding is it possible that the US navy had the same problem also I remember you saying US ships had a disturbing tendency to run aground
Do you think you could do a video on the naval actions of the opium wars? I know it's rather one sided but I was genuinely curious if there was anything the Chinese could have done differently that might have changed something?
Drach, can you do a video on the East India Company's maritime ventures? Considering how long they effectively ruled international trade, and just how much power they held for so long, I feel like the Company deserves a dedicated video or series of videos.
Now that’s interesting, Nemesis’s armor performing better in warm water and encouraging earlier adoption of iron hulled ships by the British. …only to run headfirst into brittle metal issues in cold home waters, discouraging iron hulled ship construction for a time. That’s crazy, The East India trading company goofing around in warm waters affected British ship development as a whole. Connections in history like that are important to remember.
For those confused by the EIC's name choice for this ship: *Nemesis* is the name of the ancient Greek goddess of Vengence (or Retribution; same thing really); specifically toward the sin of Hubris; arrogance before the gods. She's also perhaps the most well known of the many *Oceanids* , and is typically associated with the sea & rivers. Royal Navy ships called *Revenge* & *Vengence* have been a classic staple (alongwith *Terror* , *Terrible* , *Furious* & many others), as was *Erebus* , the Greek god of darkness (and Nemesis's father). At least two of the other Oceanids have had actual RN Warships named after them; *HMS Calypso* & *HMS Acaste* . Really; it's an historical oddity that Nemesis hasn't been the name of a Royal Navy ship (yet).
I cannot forget the Neried, 'Thetis'. Oddly enough, for some reason, I was recalling a trip across Poole Harbour in the late 1950s and seeing a (possibly) T class sub at close quarters astern of our 'Ferry Neried'. I later learned that the ferry of that name had sunk, having been in collision with a sub.
^x2 Hardly. Association with a ship that obliterated an entire enemy fleet by herself is if anything a selling point for a name :P . In reality the reason is the same for why the RN didn't name more than two of her Battlecruisers after big cats: the potential name catalog was simply too vast already (royals, admirals, personal qualities, ancient gods or dieties, famous battles, abstract concepts, etc; the RN has never had a shortage of names). @@johnjephcote7636 Good point (and snippet of history). I admit I'd forgotten about Sub's, which is ironic as Thetis is one of the named Sub's I've long known of.
@@ronmaximilian6953 Agreed ^_^ . Though needless to say the RN named at least one of theirs *Vengance* , which is certainly fitting given the primary mission .
As a sacrifice to the algorithm, I’ll leave a comment. A great video! I’ve always been peripherally interested in how the Nemesis came to be. Usually, it seems to enter from stage left, towing ships and blowing up war junks like a superhero, then quickly disappears. And apparently also due to the fact that it’s not really on the books and what happens to it is a mystery.
The United Fruit Company, which is now known as Chiquita, was concerned the Guatemalan locals were getting uppity about being exploited so had the CIA orchestrate a hostile takeover that saw a brutal dictatorship put in place that killed tens of thousands. And what was it all over, BANANAS. But lets all sing the praises of capitalism like they taught us in school.
Try the history of United Fruit, and how they'd get the US Marines to fix their problem in central America. Why pay for your own military when you can borrow the USMC for cheap?
At least the East India Company didn't have access to your financial transactions and browsing history. We might come to think of it as relatively benign, unfortunately.
"Lightly armed with two 32Pounder" 😳I wish _I_ was this lightly armed? Thanks Drach! Been looking forward to hearing about this old girl. I had no idea she was such an experimental design and ultimately what amounted to a test bed run unofficially by the Navy it seems. I bet that thing was converted into a pleasure barge as a gift to some official in India.🤔
Drach: "...massive global mega-corporations occupying and running significant parts of the planet ... the wood and canvas original: The East India Company." The (Still Extant!) Hudson's Bay Company:[To themselves] "Should we correct the record or just assume that we got away with it?"
Fascinating video. I'd love to see more about the EIC and other non-state navies, small or large. Also, the Opium Wars would be a great subject for a longer form video.
For ship suggestions, how about USS _Alarm_ and her failed attempts at experimental propulsion? Kinda interesting to see a ship with a cycloidal rotor so early on.
I guessed the EIC might have been East India Company, with a bit of uncertainty so kind of pleased I was right. I was further surprised that the East India Company was as active as they were at the time whem iron-clads were becoming a thing. My rocky history would have suspected they had petered out a short while before that time.
Are there any records on the ships built in response to the success of Nemesis that were subsequently turned into the troop transports and such? What were their names? I think HMS Birkenhead might have been one
This shoulodve been preserved in a museum. What a beautiful service life she led. The chinese must've been overwhelmed with shock and despair at the sight of her.
Cyberpunk corporations having large military power and controlling vast swaths of the world began in the age of Sword and Shot. And it truly took off in the age of Steam and Sail. At a time in History that didn’t have the restrictions on companies we do today. I’d argue that Nemesis, is the biggest statement for this we’ve seen crop up in this time. The most one of the most advanced ships used during the First Opium War, and with the backing of the British Government, this ship was primed to make her play on the world stage in the East. Outclassing War Junks in size, power, speed and maneuverability, it was a statement that showed that whilst the Imperial English might be far away, they still could supply ships like her if in the event they had need for more ships was capable of building more steamships. It also doesn’t hurt I’ve always had a love for steamships and anything relating to this point in the world(at least relating to the technology), and has always captured the imagination since not many ships like Nemesis were commissioned back then. Not until it was shown what ships like this could truly do.
Is there any published material on her design process? For such a revolutionary ship (built at a time when Britain's formal navy weren't going near iron hulls) I imagine the story would be quite interesting but have never seen much info on it.
2:44 - not fully rigged. A fully rigged (or full-rigged) ship has three masts, all of which carry square sails. Nemesis was rigged as a schooner brig - square sails on the foremast and fore-and-aft on the mainmast.
Yes don't underestimate the power of commerce. I find myself these days a resident of Canada, almost the entirety of which and all the way down to Astoria in what is now Oregon used to belong to the Hudsons Bay Company.
One of the nastier chapters of the British Empire. One of. Makes current Chinese belligerence and disregard for human rights and international law completely understandable. We, the West, taught them well.
India received its first true capital ships in 1870, the Magdala and Abyssinia two 3,000 ton ironclad monitors who’s design was based on the Cerberus class monitors mentioned in a previous video.
HMVS Cerberus was hardly a capital ship. It has (or had until they fell off a few years ago), only four guns and was too feeble to leave the sheltered bay that is surrounded by Melbourne for its entire life. Still, it is the oldest semi surviving monitor in the world.
@@Dave_Sisson in the 1870’s heavy monitors weighed more that most cruisers and battleships. They were like coastal battleships with 70% to 80% the weight and fire power of a 1880’s pre-dreadnought.
@@jmantime You may be right. The *functionally* independent colony of Victoria was swimming in gold and HMVS Cerberus was built to compliment their surprisingly large navy which included a 120 gun First Rate. But that ship (I forget its name) remained flagship after Cerberus was commissioned. So perhaps it's owners didn't think it was as much of a capital ship as a First Rate?
@@Dave_Sisson i'm not saying they were " true 100% capital ships", they were like the coastal defense ships of the 1880's and 1890's like SMS Odin or Pingyuan. Considered a capital ship by weaker / smaller navies but only seen a stopgap until the real capital ships are completed. For australia that wasn't until the 1910's, also i'm surprised no one has raised the Cerberus after all these. You would think it would be easy since she is in such shallow waters.
@@Dave_Sisson It wasn't designed to be an ocean going ship, or a capital ship - its got a freeboard narrower than the average politicians forehead... It's designed as a harbour denial weapon and for that it was perfection. They had to fit up something akin to the DD tank "skin" to steam it very slowly to its operational sector and one storm on the way and it would have been on the bottom - the storms might indeed have died laughing... But park the thing just inside the harbour and paste anything that comes into range and it's job done - especially considering when it was new it was fighting against sail ships with nice explody powder magazines - yes it took three weeks to load a broadside, but a lucky hit and even a first rate is going to be so much oak plywood, long pig mince, and VTOL 32Pdrs...
I've often wondered if the British Empire would have ever grown into even a fraction of it's ultimate size, if it hadn't been the EIC paving the way and shaping the mindset of the British government.
Interesting video. I'm definitely going to have to do more study about the East India Company. (And that's a strange choice of flag in the teaser for this video) And the whole idea of corporate owned armed forces? I guess it's more honest than our unfortunate habit in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (and...arguably...even up to the present) of sending in the marines whenever our commercial interests were at stake.
Man, what a coincidence that the brittle-ductile line of iron is juuust above the temperature of tropical water- such a perfect value to throw naval engineering into chaos.
Congratulations, you win the understatement of the week award! Your prize is feeling smug for 3.4 seconds before you realize it's a pointless award! 😂👍
Been reading a history of Indonesia recently and the Dutch equivalent, the VTC, was the same deal. Because the distance was so far from Europe and the risk of disease and shipwreck was so great, it was hard to find Europeans who actually wanted to become colonial officials in South and East Asia. This meant that the men who took these jobs were generally people who would have ended up in prison or dead on the scaffold or killed in a back alley brawl had they stayed in Europe. Mostly they were thieves, pirates, and murderers whose own countrymen barely tolerated them. Ironic that the men who had pretensions of spreading the European civilization were mostly the absolute worst specimens of it.
I would love one of your longer deep dives into the East India company's ships and antics. As an American, I assumed they were just the commercial arm of the royal government. if they had their own ships to enforce their own policies, I changes a lot about what I know.
Nah, try looking up what the Belgians did in the Congo - makes the HEIC look like Anne of Green Gables... I'd be more worried about Apple or Amazon getting hold of a private army although in Amazons case the Merkava probably a bit better, all that extra space for the *cough* overpriced crap *cough* packages..
@@MrSinny For a time at least; apparently the vessels were all sold as barter, as the Soviet Ruble was non-convertable, and ships are worth a fair bit as scrap.
@@MrSinny They (Pepsi) never actually did. This was debunked quite a while ago. The deal never actually occurred- and even if it did, it would not put Pepsi in even the top 10 largest navies, in fact it would barely constitute a costal defense force.
The ‘Honourable’ East India Company indeed! What were the relations between HEIC ships and sailors and the regular Royal Navy? Integrated and convivial or animosity and rivalry?
This theme has been treated often in fiction, credible, although of course we can't rely on it totally. Both Patrick O'Brian and C.S. Forester have their characters interact with HEIC officials, and it seems the answer is both. A lot seemed to depend on the personalities involved.
A potential future analogy would be- The EU [Mughals] were a somewhat more centralized state, but in a state of rapid collapse, trying and failing to hold on to the whole subcontinent of Europe [India]; as former nations or ethnic groups or old EU regional governors broke away to form new nations or reform old ones; There had been several brief but destructive Russian [Persian] and Turkish [Afghan] invasions or raids to destabilize Europe further; Everyone was afraid of more Russian [Persian] or Turkish [Afghan] invasions to come; There were Turkish [Afghan] and maybe Russian [Persian] colonies of soldiers scattered around the Danube and Rhine basins as left-behinds; The EU authorities had little to no power outside Brussels [Delhi] and even their EU governors who controlled territories in their name operated as rulers; Independent French and German forces [Marathas] were at the door of Brussels; But then the new French and German states broke up into loosely aligned sub-states running most things separately [later Marathas] but still controlling the central belt of Europe; Competing Chinese and Indian telecoms and shipping companies long licensed to operate concessions by the EU and already significantly controlling communications could not operate safely without private security companies which by this point were better trained and equipped than any European forces, despite being mostly European recruits and being far far smaller than the European powers' armies; The Chinese and Indian companies compete through diplomacy, intelligence and military backing to rival European states to win power and influence beyond their quasi-sovereign corporate concessions. They discover that their mixed Chinese or Indian and mostly European private armies can easily defeat European armies many times their size. The Chinese defeat the Indians in a wider war, and the prize is supremacy in Europe. The Indians are permitted to retain their smaller original concessions in Europe, but now China is making a big play. First through continuing to support allied European rulers with money, advice, small troop support. Second through demanding, in return for new support, that the EU [Mughals] give the Huawei company the revenues and rule of a rich and populous province if a geographically marginal one, say Poland. The president of Poland becomes a pensioner of Huawei. Executives start really making big fortunes, and they now are a first tier territorial player in what is still nominally the EU. The PRC government is divided over all this and the most recent Huawei governor of Poland goes on trial before the Central Committee. The trial lasts 14 years and he is still acquitted, but the PRC starts partly running Huawei more directly again. More PRC regular troops are deployed to back up the Huawei armies and more PRC officials arrive. Some local rulers are still terrified of a Russian or Turkish attack. Huawei troops become their guarantor. Huawei diplomats are all over Europe as advisors and moneymen. A militant religious movement in the Balkans rises to form its own empire and scares its neighbours. Huawei troops put them down. Huawei and PRC troops wage a 20 year campaign to subjugate the various French and German states [Marathas +] and oblige all other European states to sign alliances making them protectorates of the company. A generation or so later some incident sparks a mutiny in the Company armies and a lengthy series of wars takes place in which eventually the PRC wins. But an idea of European unity and nationalism has been invented that did not exist before and the assimilation of some European elites into superior Chinese models of corporate and political administration creates a new party administrative class with ambitions. Eventually, the PRC government tires of the company and declares all the territories it rules directly to be Chinese possessions, and the protectorates to be protectorates of the PRC. This model holds for a couple of further generations, with Europe even supplying troops for China's two wars with the US. [Don't make me justify the unlikely demographics, let's just say Europeans started reproducing again]. All through that, the European commercial and political classes are developing and advocating for a People's Republic of Europe whose institutions will be along broadly Chinese lines at least in form. China is so exhausted by two major wars that it sees the writing on the wall and leaves. Europe splits a bit, perhaps with some on the fringes forming a new nation, but a "European Republic" is formed. Historically speaking, at this point reset the board and realign the players, and repeat.
I always liked the look of this ship; the most out of all the Steam era warships. Sleek, fast-looking, and busy blowing up junks they way other people scarf chips.
Prob not. climate is warm , so stuff rusts faster than in cold- and with a bottomless market for scrap iron and steel around for 130 years.... anything that not rust away would be salvaged if was accessible to the population
Great name Nemesis - if she was the first of class what were her sisters called? Devastation; Oblivion; Sacrilage; Necropolis; Doombringer all come to mind. Obviously the HEIC were not into public relations.....
*Nemesis* is the name of the ancient Greek goddess of Vengence. The most well known of the *Oceanids* . Royal Navy ships called *Revenge* & *Vengence* have also been a classic staple (alongwith *Terror* , *Terrible* , *Furious* & many others), as was *Erebus* , the Greek god of darkness (and Nemesis's father).
My great Uncle Alfred Russell fireman stoker perished on Huddart Parker ship Colliery ship SS Nemesis off Cronulla Sydney NSW July 1904 under claimed accusations of corruption greed negligence Could you look into this dreadful ship that caused fatal harbour crash amongst many other offences Thanks Russell
EIC Official: "Good day. I have come to see if you would be interested in facilitating trade with our company. We hope for the best possible relations and economic success for both our parties." Foreign Gov Official: "Welcome sir! On behalf of my ruler we wish the same. I am so happy to begin negotiating for a prosperous future. With a ship such as this your company is obviously very successful. What do you call her?" EIC Official: "Nemesis" Foreign Gov Official: "..."
@@TooLateForIeago There are options. My country had a serious heroin problem in the early 90s. We got it under controll by changing the approach. Instead of a primary repressive approach that would usually lead to addicts moving from one spot in a city to a differtent one whenever the pressure fom police increased only for police to follow - a practice derisively called "junkie jogging" by the population, we reduced police interventon. Instead of treating them as criminals, we treated them as sick. The intervention was not at first aimed at getting them off the heroin, but to stabilise them. They could get methadon as a substitute - personaly I think straight heroin would be better but that's only done in rare cases. Getting them clean is only the last step. It worked quite well. By not treating addiction as a crime but as an illnes, we changed the perception of heroin among young people. It's no longer seen as cool. Here, heroin is now THE loser drug. And so, new addiction rates went down. Thus, demand for the drug also plumeted. Dry up the market and the dealer goes out of busines...
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Which gun has had the longer active service life the British 15 inch/42 or the American 16 inch/50?
You mentioned that it's possible the metal hull messed with compass leading to a grounding is it possible that the US navy had the same problem also I remember you saying US ships had a disturbing tendency to run aground
Are the Continental Navy ships Hancock & Allegiance on the list for future videos?
Do you think you could do a video on the naval actions of the opium wars? I know it's rather one sided but I was genuinely curious if there was anything the Chinese could have done differently that might have changed something?
Drachinifel, have you ever did a Five Minute Guide on the 1850's Revenue Cutter U.S.C.G. HARRIET LANE?
Nothing says "peaceful and honest commercial enterprise" like naming you ship Nemesis!
Perhaps HEIC Mobile Oppression Palace was too on the nose so they went with Nemesis
Speaking of space-related. Let us remember the crew of the Space shuttle Challenger.. lost on this date in 1986..
So the EIC was the original narco state?!
@@lerougeau2399 and her sister ships "Exploitation", "Dehumanization" and "Violent Redistribution"
The"Honorable..." part is ironic.
Drach, can you do a video on the East India Company's maritime ventures? Considering how long they effectively ruled international trade, and just how much power they held for so long, I feel like the Company deserves a dedicated video or series of videos.
Now that’s interesting,
Nemesis’s armor performing better in warm water and encouraging earlier adoption of iron hulled ships by the British.
…only to run headfirst into brittle metal issues in cold home waters, discouraging iron hulled ship construction for a time.
That’s crazy, The East India trading company goofing around in warm waters affected British ship development as a whole.
Connections in history like that are important to remember.
The additional sound effects near the beginning were a treat. Nicely done, Drach. 😄
For those confused by the EIC's name choice for this ship: *Nemesis* is the name of the ancient Greek goddess of Vengence (or Retribution; same thing really); specifically toward the sin of Hubris; arrogance before the gods.
She's also perhaps the most well known of the many *Oceanids* , and is typically associated with the sea & rivers.
Royal Navy ships called *Revenge* & *Vengence* have been a classic staple (alongwith *Terror* , *Terrible* , *Furious* & many others), as was *Erebus* , the Greek god of darkness (and Nemesis's father).
At least two of the other Oceanids have had actual RN Warships named after them; *HMS Calypso* & *HMS Acaste* .
Really; it's an historical oddity that Nemesis hasn't been the name of a Royal Navy ship (yet).
Fear of guilt by association?
I cannot forget the Neried, 'Thetis'. Oddly enough, for some reason, I was recalling a trip across Poole Harbour in the late 1950s and seeing a (possibly) T class sub at close quarters astern of our 'Ferry Neried'. I later learned that the ferry of that name had sunk, having been in collision with a sub.
^x2 Hardly. Association with a ship that obliterated an entire enemy fleet by herself is if anything a selling point for a name :P .
In reality the reason is the same for why the RN didn't name more than two of her Battlecruisers after big cats: the potential name catalog was simply too vast already (royals, admirals, personal qualities, ancient gods or dieties, famous battles, abstract concepts, etc; the RN has never had a shortage of names).
@@johnjephcote7636 Good point (and snippet of history). I admit I'd forgotten about Sub's, which is ironic as Thetis is one of the named Sub's I've long known of.
These would be rather good names for ballistic missile submarines.
@@ronmaximilian6953 Agreed ^_^ .
Though needless to say the RN named at least one of theirs *Vengance* , which is certainly fitting given the primary mission .
Ah yes, Cyberpunk 2077's historical prequel: Steampunk 1840
The East India Company was wild
"In 1840, what makes one a criminal? Being caught sir!"
Have you read "The Difference Engine" by by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling? If not, I recommend it.
@@LukeBunyip and after you're done with The Difference Engine, go ahead and read Neuromancer by Gibson and then Snow Crash by Stephenson.
@@BishopStars Yeah read snow crash. Really wasn't a fan. Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut on the other hand is well worth your time
Ah the East India Company. Truly one of the most interesting historical companies.
“Interesting” in the same vein the Second Pacific Squadron was “hilarious”
Drug cartel with a country.
@@bkjeong4302 Very much so.
The apocryphal Chinese. Curse "may you live in interesting times"
0:34 The intro fits decently for the Hudson's bay company too. Great video Drach, interesting to see them from smaller navies.
Thanks for this Choom. This was really interesting.
The wood and canvas original example. What a wonderful way to introduce The East India Company.
As a sacrifice to the algorithm, I’ll leave a comment. A great video! I’ve always been peripherally interested in how the Nemesis came to be. Usually, it seems to enter from stage left, towing ships and blowing up war junks like a superhero, then quickly disappears. And apparently also due to the fact that it’s not really on the books and what happens to it is a mystery.
Amazon and Nestle are pretty scary, but they will never quite be as frightening as the East India Company.
Yeah, the new Nestle-Reich is not a pleasant image...
The United Fruit Company, which is now known as Chiquita, was concerned the Guatemalan locals were getting uppity about being exploited so had the CIA orchestrate a hostile takeover that saw a brutal dictatorship put in place that killed tens of thousands. And what was it all over, BANANAS. But lets all sing the praises of capitalism like they taught us in school.
Try the history of United Fruit, and how they'd get the US Marines to fix their problem in central America. Why pay for your own military when you can borrow the USMC for cheap?
At least the East India Company didn't have access to your financial transactions and browsing history. We might come to think of it as relatively benign, unfortunately.
I suddenly have this terrifying image of Bezos buying up a couple Iowa's and reactivating them. For expedited shipping, of course.
Why am I not surprised the Company fly-tipped her?
Nemesis. Best name warship. Ever.
1:18 Damn it, Drach. That voice clip caught me off guard. Got more than a chuckle cause of that!
"Lightly armed with two 32Pounder"
😳I wish _I_ was this lightly armed?
Thanks Drach! Been looking forward to hearing about this old girl. I had no idea she was such an experimental design and ultimately what amounted to a test bed run unofficially by the Navy it seems.
I bet that thing was converted into a pleasure barge as a gift to some official in India.🤔
Compared to first rates of the period that carried over 100 32 pounders thanks to Seppings improvements 2 of them is very lightly armed.
@@Ushio01 Not if you are sailing a merchant Junk it ain't!😂
Thank you.
Drach: "...massive global mega-corporations occupying and running significant parts of the planet ... the wood and canvas original: The East India Company."
The (Still Extant!) Hudson's Bay Company:[To themselves] "Should we correct the record or just assume that we got away with it?"
Fascinating video. I'd love to see more about the EIC and other non-state navies, small or large. Also, the Opium Wars would be a great subject for a longer form video.
I had no idea ... A most interesting little ship Drach. Thank you.
Good yarn...informative and entertaining. Who knew the British could be so darn much fun!?!?
Veterans of British Humour: *You must be new here*
Well I did, but then I'm Brit...
You got me on this one I was only aware of the HMS Nemisis. thanks
For ship suggestions, how about USS _Alarm_ and her failed attempts at experimental propulsion? Kinda interesting to see a ship with a cycloidal rotor so early on.
I wondered whether Drach has ever looked at the tug of war between HMS Rattler HMS Alecto-screw v. paddle.
Well that was unique. Nicely done.
I guessed the EIC might have been East India Company, with a bit of uncertainty so kind of pleased I was right. I was further surprised that the East India Company was as active as they were at the time whem iron-clads were becoming a thing. My rocky history would have suspected they had petered out a short while before that time.
Are there any records on the ships built in response to the success of Nemesis that were subsequently turned into the troop transports and such? What were their names? I think HMS Birkenhead might have been one
Correct!
Name the drill
Amazing video for an amazing ship belonging to a very peculiar company! Congratulations!
I hope you decide to cover the naval security forces of the HEIC in more detail in a future episode, they occupy a unique place in naval history.
This shoulodve been preserved in a museum. What a beautiful service life she led. The chinese must've been overwhelmed with shock and despair at the sight of her.
Excellent video! Great topic.
A great introduction to the East Indian Company navy. Thank you.
Cyberpunk corporations having large military power and controlling vast swaths of the world began in the age of Sword and Shot. And it truly took off in the age of Steam and Sail. At a time in History that didn’t have the restrictions on companies we do today. I’d argue that Nemesis, is the biggest statement for this we’ve seen crop up in this time.
The most one of the most advanced ships used during the First Opium War, and with the backing of the British Government, this ship was primed to make her play on the world stage in the East. Outclassing War Junks in size, power, speed and maneuverability, it was a statement that showed that whilst the Imperial English might be far away, they still could supply ships like her if in the event they had need for more ships was capable of building more steamships.
It also doesn’t hurt I’ve always had a love for steamships and anything relating to this point in the world(at least relating to the technology), and has always captured the imagination since not many ships like Nemesis were commissioned back then. Not until it was shown what ships like this could truly do.
Nemesis is such an awesome name
Been waiting for this. Thank you!
Is there any published material on her design process? For such a revolutionary ship (built at a time when Britain's formal navy weren't going near iron hulls) I imagine the story would be quite interesting but have never seen much info on it.
Seconded. Have wanted to build a scale model of her for a long time ^_^
Informative and quite interesting , thx.
Nice vid on something I never read about. Keep it up!
2:44 - not fully rigged. A fully rigged (or full-rigged) ship has three masts, all of which carry square sails. Nemesis was rigged as a schooner brig - square sails on the foremast and fore-and-aft on the mainmast.
took the rigging right out of my mouth
Yes don't underestimate the power of commerce. I find myself these days a resident of Canada, almost the entirety of which and all the way down to Astoria in what is now Oregon used to belong to the Hudsons Bay Company.
Just reading "Anarchy" by William Dalrymple, about the East India Company,. It's much too well written, and truly grim. This makes perfect sense.
Thanks, just ordered it. I've read his excellent "City of Djinns."
Darn. ANOTHER book for my Pile of Shame. Sigh.
Seriously, ta muchly for the recommendation.
Ah, yes, the East India Company. The largest security force in the world at the time was employed by these fellows.
The East India Company had an army of 300,000 strong, larger than the British Army.
One of the nastier chapters of the British Empire. One of. Makes current Chinese belligerence and disregard for human rights and international law completely understandable. We, the West, taught them well.
@@CorePathway One would have hoped the lesson was in what NOT to do. Alas, it appears this did not turn out to be the case.
Wagner Group for Britian?
@@notparticipataring To be fair to Wagner group (sic) I never heard them being dope pushers .
thanks
India received its first true capital ships in 1870, the Magdala and Abyssinia two 3,000 ton ironclad monitors who’s design was based on the Cerberus class monitors mentioned in a previous video.
HMVS Cerberus was hardly a capital ship. It has (or had until they fell off a few years ago), only four guns and was too feeble to leave the sheltered bay that is surrounded by Melbourne for its entire life. Still, it is the oldest semi surviving monitor in the world.
@@Dave_Sisson in the 1870’s heavy monitors weighed more that most cruisers and battleships. They were like coastal battleships with 70% to 80% the weight and fire power of a 1880’s pre-dreadnought.
@@jmantime You may be right. The *functionally* independent colony of Victoria was swimming in gold and HMVS Cerberus was built to compliment their surprisingly large navy which included a 120 gun First Rate. But that ship (I forget its name) remained flagship after Cerberus was commissioned. So perhaps it's owners didn't think it was as much of a capital ship as a First Rate?
@@Dave_Sisson i'm not saying they were " true 100% capital ships", they were like the coastal defense ships of the 1880's and 1890's like SMS Odin or Pingyuan. Considered a capital ship by weaker / smaller navies but only seen a stopgap until the real capital ships are completed. For australia that wasn't until the 1910's, also i'm surprised no one has raised the Cerberus after all these. You would think it would be easy since she is in such shallow waters.
@@Dave_Sisson It wasn't designed to be an ocean going ship, or a capital ship - its got a freeboard narrower than the average politicians forehead... It's designed as a harbour denial weapon and for that it was perfection. They had to fit up something akin to the DD tank "skin" to steam it very slowly to its operational sector and one storm on the way and it would have been on the bottom - the storms might indeed have died laughing...
But park the thing just inside the harbour and paste anything that comes into range and it's job done - especially considering when it was new it was fighting against sail ships with nice explody powder magazines - yes it took three weeks to load a broadside, but a lucky hit and even a first rate is going to be so much oak plywood, long pig mince, and VTOL 32Pdrs...
Thank you for the video
Just waiting for the WEF or Blackrock to start building it a fleet.
Doesn't need to, when it can just build itself a virus, instead.
SPECTRE, pardon me, the WEF is starting to build a "guard" force...
Why? When they can simply have one of their client states do their bidding?
@@mahbriggs Power beats influence any day.
@@luisnunes3863
Influence is power! How do you think they get permission for their own guard force.
I've often wondered if the British Empire would have ever grown into even a fraction of it's ultimate size, if it hadn't been the EIC paving the way and shaping the mindset of the British government.
Palmerston was quite jiggy with it, among other things.
Interesting video. I'm definitely going to have to do more study about the East India Company. (And that's a strange choice of flag in the teaser for this video) And the whole idea of corporate owned armed forces? I guess it's more honest than our unfortunate habit in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (and...arguably...even up to the present) of sending in the marines whenever our commercial interests were at stake.
Man, what a coincidence that the brittle-ductile line of iron is juuust above the temperature of tropical water- such a perfect value to throw naval engineering into chaos.
I like this video so much, the tea meme got me
I do believe it is safe to say that that was quite a duplicitous lot in that large company known as the East India.
Congratulations, you win the understatement of the week award!
Your prize is feeling smug for 3.4 seconds before you realize it's a pointless award! 😂👍
Been reading a history of Indonesia recently and the Dutch equivalent, the VTC, was the same deal. Because the distance was so far from Europe and the risk of disease and shipwreck was so great, it was hard to find Europeans who actually wanted to become colonial officials in South and East Asia. This meant that the men who took these jobs were generally people who would have ended up in prison or dead on the scaffold or killed in a back alley brawl had they stayed in Europe. Mostly they were thieves, pirates, and murderers whose own countrymen barely tolerated them.
Ironic that the men who had pretensions of spreading the European civilization were mostly the absolute worst specimens of it.
Imperialism at its best. I had no idea what HEIC meant until clicking the vid. Thank you!
Possibly "His East India Company"
@@spirz4557 The H is for "Honorable". Apparently at the time they picked the name it wasn't actually _intended_ to be ironic...
Companies today try to virtue signal. The EIC - as in many things - did it before it was fashionable.
I expect it will be the IJN Yubari next :P
I would love one of your longer deep dives into the East India company's ships and antics. As an American, I assumed they were just the commercial arm of the royal government. if they had their own ships to enforce their own policies, I changes a lot about what I know.
"Conquered? We don't really use that word, we prefer freedom-impaired" - East India Company spokesperson
I used to marvel at the word 'Protectorate'.
Protecting them from themselves
the EIC discovered it had a large trade imbalance with China
"Oh damn, we've done the books and we seem to be at a mild disadvantage"
The last two words should be "seriously buggered".
£29K for whole warship? In today's military, that would buy maybe 50 bolts?
Don't forget it was a private company, not a government...
Adjust for inflation and it's about £2.25million today. So still rather good value!
Believe Americans makeing Patrol ships at 8 million each and I don’t think that includes weapons just the hull
1:21 COPYRIGHT STRIKE: Amazon warehouse image under export ban. The Algorithm has been notified.
...You do find the coolest pictures, by the way.
Ooooh, I've been hoping for this for a while. Any chance of a full video of her career?
kinda shame we dont have her as a museum
Cool - Thanks ! ! !
🙂😎👍
I’ve been waiting on this one
Wow. It's as though Meta or Alphabet got Abrams tanks. The HEIC was dark.
Nah, try looking up what the Belgians did in the Congo - makes the HEIC look like Anne of Green Gables...
I'd be more worried about Apple or Amazon getting hold of a private army although in Amazons case the Merkava probably a bit better, all that extra space for the *cough* overpriced crap *cough* packages..
Never forget Pepsi held for a short time the largest fleet in the world
@@MrSinny For a time at least; apparently the vessels were all sold as barter, as the Soviet Ruble was non-convertable, and ships are worth a fair bit as scrap.
@@rosiehawtrey Should Amazon's drones be named?
@@MrSinny
They (Pepsi) never actually did. This was debunked quite a while ago. The deal never actually occurred- and even if it did, it would not put Pepsi in even the top 10 largest navies, in fact it would barely constitute a costal defense force.
*Business goals*
I can see Bezos… with his pinky at his mouth “Nemesis you say? Yes I like it” Amazon’s first ‘commercial ship’ armed with VLS.
The ‘Honourable’ East India Company indeed!
What were the relations between HEIC ships and sailors and the regular Royal Navy? Integrated and convivial or animosity and rivalry?
Good question. Can't imagine it being too pally.
But then, Nemesis's crew were ex RN. Need more data.
This theme has been treated often in fiction, credible, although of course we can't rely on it totally. Both Patrick O'Brian and C.S. Forester have their characters interact with HEIC officials, and it seems the answer is both. A lot seemed to depend on the personalities involved.
Like the British army the RN looked down at them
Next week: "Mark Felton Productions: the curios remains of an iron hull in an Indien river"
Fight this Jack Sparrow...
Drach, have you every watched the mini-series Taboo, starring Tom Hardy. A very dark look at that time period and especially the East India Company.
A potential future analogy would be-
The EU [Mughals] were a somewhat more centralized state, but in a state of rapid collapse, trying and failing to hold on to the whole subcontinent of Europe [India];
as former nations or ethnic groups or old EU regional governors broke away to form new nations or reform old ones;
There had been several brief but destructive Russian [Persian] and Turkish [Afghan] invasions or raids to destabilize Europe further;
Everyone was afraid of more Russian [Persian] or Turkish [Afghan] invasions to come;
There were Turkish [Afghan] and maybe Russian [Persian] colonies of soldiers scattered around the Danube and Rhine basins as left-behinds;
The EU authorities had little to no power outside Brussels [Delhi] and even their EU governors who controlled territories in their name operated as rulers;
Independent French and German forces [Marathas] were at the door of Brussels;
But then the new French and German states broke up into loosely aligned sub-states running most things separately [later Marathas] but still controlling the central belt of Europe;
Competing Chinese and Indian telecoms and shipping companies long licensed to operate concessions by the EU and already significantly controlling communications could not operate safely without private security companies which by this point were better trained and equipped than any European forces, despite being mostly European recruits and being far far smaller than the European powers' armies;
The Chinese and Indian companies compete through diplomacy, intelligence and military backing to rival European states to win power and influence beyond their quasi-sovereign corporate concessions.
They discover that their mixed Chinese or Indian and mostly European private armies can easily defeat European armies many times their size.
The Chinese defeat the Indians in a wider war, and the prize is supremacy in Europe.
The Indians are permitted to retain their smaller original concessions in Europe, but now China is making a big play.
First through continuing to support allied European rulers with money, advice, small troop support.
Second through demanding, in return for new support, that the EU [Mughals] give the Huawei company the revenues and rule of a rich and populous province if a geographically marginal one, say Poland. The president of Poland becomes a pensioner of Huawei. Executives start really making big fortunes, and they now are a first tier territorial player in what is still nominally the EU.
The PRC government is divided over all this and the most recent Huawei governor of Poland goes on trial before the Central Committee. The trial lasts 14 years and he is still acquitted, but the PRC starts partly running Huawei more directly again.
More PRC regular troops are deployed to back up the Huawei armies and more PRC officials arrive.
Some local rulers are still terrified of a Russian or Turkish attack. Huawei troops become their guarantor.
Huawei diplomats are all over Europe as advisors and moneymen.
A militant religious movement in the Balkans rises to form its own empire and scares its neighbours. Huawei troops put them down.
Huawei and PRC troops wage a 20 year campaign to subjugate the various French and German states [Marathas +] and oblige all other European states to sign alliances making them protectorates of the company.
A generation or so later some incident sparks a mutiny in the Company armies and a lengthy series of wars takes place in which eventually the PRC wins. But an idea of European unity and nationalism has been invented that did not exist before and the assimilation of some European elites into superior Chinese models of corporate and political administration creates a new party administrative class with ambitions.
Eventually, the PRC government tires of the company and declares all the territories it rules directly to be Chinese possessions, and the protectorates to be protectorates of the PRC.
This model holds for a couple of further generations, with Europe even supplying troops for China's two wars with the US. [Don't make me justify the unlikely demographics, let's just say Europeans started reproducing again].
All through that, the European commercial and political classes are developing and advocating for a People's Republic of Europe whose institutions will be along broadly Chinese lines at least in form.
China is so exhausted by two major wars that it sees the writing on the wall and leaves. Europe splits a bit, perhaps with some on the fringes forming a new nation, but a "European Republic" is formed.
Historically speaking, at this point reset the board and realign the players, and repeat.
I always liked the look of this ship; the most out of all the Steam era warships. Sleek, fast-looking, and busy blowing up junks they way other people scarf chips.
The Sackler Family of the seas.
The East India Company of Great Britain: A nation onto itself, the tail that dragged Britain into messes they created.
Can anyone recommend a good book about the East India Company?
Anarchy by Dalrymple.
@@alun7006 thanks
Wait, was the future city seen from destiny 2 lightfall advertising? Love when my 2 hobbies intertwine
Now you’ve got me wondering about what sort of private navy the Hudson’s Bay Company had when it owned half of North America.
have you ever done a video of the Unadilla Class gunboats of the American Civil War??
now the naming of Microsoft's new 'exploration' ship the MSFT Nuke Them From Orbit makes more sense
✌
How about a guide on Western gunboats on the Yangtse River?
Nemesis' career is a Victoria playthrough...
The VOC: "we were doing militarized global megacorporations before it was cool... posers."
I did not know that the EIC had iron hulled ships...
could birkenhead's loss have been wholly or partly due to water temperature that summer off south africa?
Could be that Nemesis was at the start of the ship breaking industry in that part of the world, still a fairly casual enterprise.
One illustration (at 2:38) clearly shows the White Ensign. By the early 1800’s wouldn’t she have worn the Red Ensign?
Sounds like some more research needed - might she turn up under a few feet of water along some riverbank somewhere, or part of a long-forgotten pier?
Prob not. climate is warm , so stuff rusts faster than in cold- and with a bottomless market for scrap iron and steel around for 130 years....
anything that not rust away would be salvaged if was accessible to the population
Great name Nemesis - if she was the first of class what were her sisters called? Devastation; Oblivion; Sacrilage; Necropolis; Doombringer all come to mind. Obviously the HEIC were not into public relations.....
It would be fitting if her sisters were named Oppressor, Conqueror and Genocide.
*Nemesis* is the name of the ancient Greek goddess of Vengence. The most well known of the *Oceanids* .
Royal Navy ships called *Revenge* & *Vengence* have also been a classic staple (alongwith *Terror* , *Terrible* , *Furious* & many others), as was *Erebus* , the Greek god of darkness (and Nemesis's father).
@@bkjeong4302 Just business, old chap- capitalism at its finest!
Stars
Only W’s
Think you'll find that Chinese junks had watertight compartments long before the Nemesis
She was her own Nemesis, I guess. That's the way things out, sometimes
My great Uncle Alfred Russell fireman stoker perished
on Huddart Parker ship Colliery ship SS Nemesis off Cronulla Sydney NSW July
1904 under claimed accusations of corruption greed negligence
Could you look into this dreadful ship
that caused fatal harbour crash amongst many other offences
Thanks
Russell
HEIC Nemesis: when your drug dealer shows up with an entire navy
EIC Official: "Good day. I have come to see if you would be interested in facilitating trade with our company. We hope for the best possible relations and economic success for both our parties."
Foreign Gov Official: "Welcome sir! On behalf of my ruler we wish the same. I am so happy to begin negotiating for a prosperous future. With a ship such as this your company is obviously very successful. What do you call her?"
EIC Official: "Nemesis"
Foreign Gov Official: "..."
The Royal Navy needs to commission another Nemesis and have it patrol the Strait of Taiwan alongside the US Navy, just to troll the ChiComs.
When Walmart returns fire....
East India Company : Corporate Commerce raiders.....with their own private militia...
The Opium War was the modern era's first war on drugs. The dealers won.
Is there one the dealers didn't win or are in the process of winning?
@@Bird_Dog00 When the rich elites who run the government are also the ones secretly buying most of the best stuff... no.
@@Bird_Dog00 no.
@@Bird_Dog00 No, we should have been paying more attention. There HAS to be a more effective way.
@@TooLateForIeago There are options.
My country had a serious heroin problem in the early 90s. We got it under controll by changing the approach.
Instead of a primary repressive approach that would usually lead to addicts moving from one spot in a city to a differtent one whenever the pressure fom police increased only for police to follow - a practice derisively called "junkie jogging" by the population, we reduced police interventon.
Instead of treating them as criminals, we treated them as sick. The intervention was not at first aimed at getting them off the heroin, but to stabilise them. They could get methadon as a substitute - personaly I think straight heroin would be better but that's only done in rare cases.
Getting them clean is only the last step.
It worked quite well. By not treating addiction as a crime but as an illnes, we changed the perception of heroin among young people. It's no longer seen as cool.
Here, heroin is now THE loser drug. And so, new addiction rates went down.
Thus, demand for the drug also plumeted. Dry up the market and the dealer goes out of busines...
Drach, not sure if everybody has this problem but it seems your volume level is down 1/2 compared to others.