Obscure Ships - Five vessels that deserve to be better known
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
- Today we look at my picks for five ships or ship types that displayed excellent traits of design or performance, but don't usually get as much notice as they should.
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
why was AX the most common main gun design on pre dreadnoughts instead of AQX? wouldn't a pre dreadnought with 3 duel main gun turrets preform better against both contemporaries and more modern foes then the much more common AX gun layout?
Why did the Germans tell everyone that the Bismarck's were Washington and London treaty compliant even though they were not a part of ether? Is it just to try and put the British at ease? I feel like they could have just said that the ships were 40 000ts and nobody could legally say or do anything about it.
Something I've noticed from looking at pictures of the Graf Spee is that on the port side between the funnel and main superstructure and just inboard of the 105mm guns there seems to be something resembling a catapult. I've also noticed that neither of the other deutschland class ships had it. What was it? What was it used for? and why didn't the other two ships have it?
What’s your opinion on Edsall’s last stand? Personally I consider it to be the single best naval last stand of WWII, as it occurred under significantly worse odds than Taffy 3, or even cases like Rawalpindi, Glowworm, Jervis Bay or Yarra (Edsall faced off against the entire Kido Butai and their escorts minus only the Shokakus, completely on her own and without a single friendly aircraft).
As an idea for another video the USS Johnston, HMS Glowworm and Jarvis Bay are examples of small ships taking on much larger vessels. But have there been other lesser known examples of that kind of story.
Glorioso deserves a movie, it's the 18th Century "Sink the Bismarck" but with 2.5 times more battles.
It really really is so similar. It blows up Dartmouth like hood when it has 2 major ships chasing it, then in the end it's finally damaged enough the slow big gun ship named Russell rather than Rodney can catch up and engage up close.
Honestly, I feel like comparing Glorioso to Bismarck is just doing Glorioso a disservice. Glorioso was superbly sailed and completed her mission successfully before giving the British, probably the most bitter naval victory they had experienced in quite some time.
Lived up to its name.
@@01ZombieMoses10 agreed. Glorioso actually accomplished her mission and bested the British multiple times before they finally defeated her.
Needs to be shot in Spanish I reckon, then dubbed to English with Spanish voice actors so the accents are right. A new Master and Commander, but a run rather than a chase.
Epic anyways.
A couple of slightly obscure oddballs from a main navy player during WW2: USS Wolverine and USS Sable. They were both side-wheel steamers, converted to "aircraft carriers" and used on the Great Lakes for training. Both did a real and valuable contribution to the allied war effort.
I second that motion 🙂 And did any other nations have purpose built training carriers?
They were chosen to be side wheel steamers in a age of screws, because *luxury*. Apparently smoother or something. And for the freshwater great lakes of the US Midwest, too. Definitely something I'd like to see more on as well.
@@gina2804 There was HMS Spurious, two buses converted for training Deck Landing Officers but that may not count.
@Philip271828 I looked up HMS Spurious and wow! That is neat little oddity :D Thanks so much for sharing that! 😊
@@nathanweitzman9531 in fairness vibrations suck.
Glorioso living up to her name. It was indeed _glorious_
For the emperor
The crew of the GLORIOSO exemplifies the words of John Paul Jones: "Give me a fast ship and a good crew . . . for I intend to go into harms way."
The overall mediocre performance of Spanish ships of the period is starkly contrasted by individual acts of incredible valor, bravery and tenacity, such as Glorioso and her crew, which any navy of the period would have been proud to lay claim to. Honor is most definitely due.
@@christopherreed4723 The Spanish Navy had (I believe) a good performance overall for most of the 18th century.
@@augustosolari7721 Perhaps, but they were already being affected as an institution by the infighting, cortuption, and general malaise that had been damaging the Spanish Empire since the 1620s (basically the time of Phillip IV and his chief minister, the Count-Duke of Olivares). This had a progressive negative effect on the overall quality and readiness of ships and crew, which was especially damaging given that the Royal Navy in the same period were progressively *improving* their ship quality, training, and professionalism. This was to reach it's low point during the Peninsular War, when the overall quality of Spanish regular land forces was so abysmal that they were more of a hindrance to British forces fighting in Spain than an asset. By that point the Spanish Navy had effectively ceased to exist as a major player, however, and would need to be rebuilt essentially from the ground up after Napoleon's withdrawal from Spain. And, in fact, the trend of building ships that were formidable on paper, then failing to maintain them or ensure the crews were properly trained continued. Theoretically, the naval force Spain sent to Cuba during the Spanish-American War should have been more than a match for the relatively small and unproven US Navy. But the ships were crippled by lack of trained crews, poor maintenance (their hulls were dragging so much seaweed it significantly affected their performance) and, in some cases, armament that only existed on paper and had never been fitted.
That Glorioso's crew were able *and willing* to fight their ship to the extraordinary degree of excellence and persistence they did is a shining testament to the quality of that crew, from the ordinary seamen up to the officers and the captain.
It's probably logical that the Spanish Navy would have assigned one of their finest to a task as vital to the national economy as transporting the treasure from the Americas. But even so...
Holy smokes the Birger Jarl sounds like something straight out of a Patrick O'Brien novel. If somebody gave Jack Aubrey a frigate with 36-pounders I believe the French navy would openly weep.
More likley Aubrey would have been sent to take her and the Xebec Frigate though the Swedes would have been more ready.
@@frosty3693 Considering Sweden and Britain were extremely friendly to each other, I see little reason for Aubrey to be stealing a Swedish ship. If anything, the Swedes would be begging him to take the ship in order to keep it out of the hands of the French. Still would have made for a great novel, though, Aubrey sneaking the Swedish vessel from under French noses.
The whole 1810-1812 "state of war" between Sweden and Great Britain was just a diplomatic technicality compelled on Sweden by the French continental system (ie, Napoleon threatened to invade Sweden if Sweden didn't declare war on Britain). Sweden complied on paper but never actually waged war on Britain, with no acts of state-sanctioned violence between the two nations during that time. Swedes and Brits continued to trade with each other and Sweden even continued to support the Royal Navy base on Hano, formally declaring that it was Swedish territory occupied by a foreign aggressor, but never sending a proper army or fleet to actually evict the British garrison. After all, it was a good place to organize friendly smuggling between Sweden and Britain!
And celebrate with soused pigs face and a boiled baby for dessert.
@@neilwilson5785 along with the tradition of getting a Sloth utterly plastered on Rum
US Navy: "Why didn't we think of that?"
Thank you for covering the Spanish Glorioso - what an incredible story. If it was written up as a novel I would not have believed it🤣.
Wonder how many Spanish warships carried her name ?
Well she lived up to her name. It's going past novel territory straight into hollywood bluster. Imagine telling the story as a former Glorioso sailer and the looks you would get. haha!
@@bcluett1697 Thats standard for sailors though, no one ever believes the stories.
I agree! It sounds like a novel or Hollywood script!
@@bcluett1697 The story sounds straight out of a Michael Bay production. 😂
Not enough.
I have an antique metal etched plate commemorating the capture of the Glorioso hanging right above my computer monitor, I had no idea she fought so many engagements before her capture! If Glorioso were a British ship she would be a household name to this day.
Thank you for another fine video Drach, I don't know where you get your energy but I am happy you are using it so productively for the benefit of naval history geeks like me. Cheers!
Interrupted a Drydock episode to watch this.
Definitely and intrigued as well.
Dock-ception?
Orgiastic levels of naval nerdery.
Happens
Drydockius interruptus 🤭
The inclusion of the Hemmemas and Turumas was certainly a nice surprise. The names live on in the Finnish Navy as Hämeenmaa and Turunmaa.
Hopefully I didn't butcher the names too badly
@@Drachinifel Well, you got the Swedish pronunciation 😁
There were another two classes: Pojama and Udema. I think Udema is interesting despite its bad reputation (bad sailor and too heavy to row) since the battery was mounted on the ships centreline on, well ..., turrets. Btw according to Wikipedia the Russians built a Häämenma as late as 1823.
@@Drachinifel The Swedes did the butchering, you just cooked the steak they gave you.
Nice to see the Swedish archipelago frigates getting well deserved attention. One detail which I do not think you mentioned was that these were not ships of the Swedish navy, rather they belonged to the army like the rest of the ships and gunboats that made up "Skärgårdsflottan" aka "Armens flotta".
My personal pick for an obscure Swedish ship that deserves to be better known is the 'Sankt Erik', a 90 gun ship that served as the flagship of the Swedish navy for mucj of 1563-70 Nordic Seven Years war. She would earn a terrifying reputation in battle as her firepower let her decimate the crews of Danish and Lubeck ships that tried to board her.
3:34 ARA La Argentina
10:21 Edgar Quinet
18:40 The Glorioso
25:45 Hemmemas
34:14 Inca cargo ship
Thank you Sir😊
thx i first tok La Argentina for Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya
Thank you for this invaluable list. I was surprised (and disappointed) that Drachinifel did not provide the names as captions in his video.
@@Sovjetski- l
The smallpox crap is fake.
The Inca vessels were (to me) incredibly fascinating and the most interesting off today's list. I couldn't imagine sailing one of those but was a very creative and economical solution. Keep up the great work Drach!
I really appreciate Drach covering the Inca rafts, interesting subject you don't hear anything about.
Read the book Kon-Tiki, by Thor Heyerdahl. It's fascinating and beautifully written.
@Crazy Pete C-130 FE I also read that book. Around 1964-65. Good book. Another one I read in high school was Half Mile Down.
There is a controversy about how sweet potatoes Kumera. Got into Polynesia before European arrival in the area
@@tomricketts7821 There are also chicken bones in South America that predate the arrival of Europeans.
To clarify about the Swedish Skärgårdsfregatter (Archipelago frigates). Both the coasts of Sweden and Southern Finland have vast archipelagos that are very difficult for sailing ships. Not only are the waters often shallow and full of rocks, but a rule of thumb states that the wind is ruined 10 times farther away from an island than the height of the island. Shallow draft and oars allow you to sneak up on your enemy (spells Russian or evil Dane) in situations where sailing just not is possible. You seldom go far from land and resupply is most often within a day or two of sailing, so you can load lots of guns and ammo.
Udema, Pojama, Turuma and Hemmema are Swedified names of Finnish region or Countys. Appropriate as those ships seems to be designed to be used in the Finnish archipelago, against Russia.
Starkodder were a nordic fairytale Hero, born by a giant and a protege of Oden. He did a lot of raiding to the East against what become Russia, therefore also a appropriate name for a ship to be used in the eastern part of the Baltic sea.
Your pronounciation of these names were pretty good by the way, and also a thank you for covering the smaller navys to.
I do recommend a visit to Sjöhistoriska museet in Stockholm next time you visit Sweden, if you haven't been there already, they do have a lot of old ship models including some of the shiptypes in this vlog.
Du var snabbare en jag. 👍
More Starkotter (which was the spelling of the ships name) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starkad
thank you for this comment, I visited the Sjohistoriska Museet twice, once in childhood and again in 1997 when I could better appreciate it. I second your recommendation, it has wonderful, detailed models (including one of an inshore frigate), but also the drawings of Hendrik Chapman, who in most English nautical literature is called the world's first naval architect. I was taught that he invented the means used to calculate hydrostatics, but more recent research shows that a French scientist, M. Bouguer (might not be spelled right) deserves the credit from a book published around 1745. Chapman's collection of drawings, Architectura Navalis Mercantoria, was published in 1760. He shows the metacenter in these drawings.
@@DonaldMcKay3768 could the Swedish ships be well suited in north America, well especially the Caribbean?
@@merafirewing6591 While the inshore warships discussed here (and portrayed in the museum model I'm remembering, I think it was a hemmema) were designed for Baltic operations, there was a Swedish merchant marine that operated almost worldwide in the Age of Sail. Part of the present-day US state of Delaware was a Swedish colony in the 17th C, and "Delaware's tall ship" Kalmar Nyckel represents a ship that brought colonists there from Sweden just a few years after the Vasa capsized in Stockholm harbour. I've visited the replica myself.
This video, and it's subject matter, really epitomises what is so great about the channel. Terrific research, excellent visuals and commentary, and you come away having learnt a lot more than you initially knew! Top work Drach!
I recommend the Wolf, a German commerce raider that served in World War 1. This ship was involved in one of the longest and most epic voyages of modern history.
So its well known.
@@sugarnads It’s not nearly as well known as it should be. There are a couple of videos on UA-cam about it, but they have fewer than 10,000 views last I checked.
@@sugarnads Doing well and performing well as shown in part by this video does not necessarily mean that the vessel in question is actually going to be known about.
I only knew about the Inca seagoing rafts because a friend gave me a copy of Heyerdahl's 'The Kon-Tiki Expedition'; so I'm glad you mention his experimental archeology expedition when covering them.
So glad you chose the Edgar Quinet ! Ive always been fascinated by the idea of the Armoured Cruiser and this without doubt one of my fav AC designs. I actually watched that segment twice 😂
A unique look, massive firepower and decent speed. What's not to like? :)
Agreed. I really like the book, "Before the Battle Cruiser" by Dodson. A great analysis of the development to the armoured cruiser.
Anyone know the length? Striking appearance. In the thumbnail it looks like two ships in tandem.
@@Ad_Valorem 157m (438') Slightly longer than HMS Minotaur, 149m, or SMS Scharnhorst 143.8m
@@Ad_Valorem almost 160meters, here's the wiki on it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Quinet-class_cruiser
This episode felt really "fresh" naturally, the same 50 odd warships keep coming up a lot on this channel and others because they're well-known. The ships here I did not know a lot about and I felt that hunger and satisfaction for fresh naval history with this list.
ARA La Argentína is my favorite 'British' cruiser. As you said, in many respects a better ship than her contemporary Royal Navy half sisters and so pretty too! Long forcastle and airy Bridge she would make a great school ship.
She was built in the long tradition of British private built warships for foreign navies. A number of Spanish ships were built in Britain that are interesting too. Also Thailand had a pair of pocket cruisers that were built by Japan before ww2 interesting.
Something to note about the Centreboards you can see on the Inca raft at 37:29 By the Spanish accounts, those boards were *moveable and interchangeable* this made them dagger boards, with the added feature that they could be moved into different slots on the hull to steer the vessel or adjust its trim. I find this interesting because these adjustable rudder-dagger-boards are a an entire feature that you *can't* do with a Old World style hull (well, not without putting lots of holes below the waterline....)
Drachinifel, you are a treasure that is to be respected. Thank you for the years of great content.
The giant ships of Zheng He's expeditions come to mind, they've fascinated me ever since I first learned about them.
I would not call those obscure.
For one, they aren't obscure; secondly, there's so little reliable information on them it would be hard to present a realistic idea of them in this format.
Idea for a video: 10 most infamous ships. Any era, any country. Pick your own your criteria for what you regard as infamous. :)
A certain Russian “carrier” still in service (sort of..) might be a good place to start the list.
Number 1 got to be Kamchatka
If you mean “infamous” as in “terrible”:
- Vasa (literally the worst warship ever, to the point she probably beats out everything else on this list combined by that alone)
- Captain (do I need to explain?)
- Hoche (ship always looks like she’s sinking)
- the Charles Martels semi-class predreadnoughts (the ultimate floating hotels)
- Kamchatka (Duh)
- the Courageous-class (worst battlecruisers ever)
- the Dusquene-class (when your heavy cruiser can be easily shredded by any destroyer with a gun around 4” or more, or even by a tank, you have a problem)
- the entire WWII generation of battleships (with the exception of the Germans they were all well-designed and top-of-the-line battleships and even the badly designed German capital ships were a notch or two above WWI-era designs. Unfortunately, they entered service right as carriers took over, making them collectively the worst military procurement disaster in history).
- Taiho (decent carrier, but ended up farting herself to death in her first engagement thanks to crew incompetence)
- The Alaska-class (another ship without a reason to exist)
Glorioso is definitely the stand-out of this video. WOW. Looking forward to her in-depth guide.
Tells us the first ship will get its own five-minute guide... and then gives us a six-minute description. Keep up the great content
1st point, I love learning about ships from Drac. 2nd point, it's nice to see Drac channel the late comedian, Don Rickles. From the *ARA La Argentína* review "an anti-aircraft battery that would actually have been useful." Yep, came for the reviews, stayed for the sarcasm.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
I would love to know more about South American warships as then were often used a a point of comparison or even a potential threat during the development of the modern US Navy, in fact the USS Maine was modeled on two Brazilian turreted ironclads from the 1880s :)
Yeah, when Brazil ordered the Minas Geraes (or Gerais in some sources) class dreadnoughts the US Executive branch was able to finally convince a cheapskate Congress that they were about to be outgunned by a country that no self-respecting superpower could ever allow themselves to fall behind 😂
@@MAGEs-of-Anarchy Well, the US was hardly a superpower at the time, it was still in the "up and coming" category then. It didn't become a true superpower until WW2,
@@drtidrow I would argue that, economically especially but also militarily it really started coming into its own in WWI as, perhaps ironically, an arms dealer on steroids. The US helped to swing WWI in favor of the Brits and French, and previously helped keep Britain in the war by preventing nasty starvations. In return for this, the Brits owed a *lot* of money and, until Germany said screw this in the 30s, the Brits were relying on them to pay war reparations to Britain so that Britain could pay the US.
@@MAGEs-of-Anarchy Geraes is the old portuguese spelling, contemporary version would be Gerais. It's the name of Brazil's second largest state.
@@RobertoGonzalez-gg3jc ah, good to know. I don’t know all that much about Brazil or Portuguese so I was kinda clueless about that distinction, so thank you 😁
Drach, I do believe, sir, that you did succeed in highlighting five obscure vessels, and including sailing ships and rafts was a stroke of genius. Thank you.
The amount of knowledge behind this series is truly amazing, the result being " strorny" (to use a Winnie the Pooh word) entertaining as well as informative. I nevertheless would like to learn more about the "Viking long ships", unique in many ways. (And certainly about how the timber used was cut - split along the fibres rather than sawed.) Also, the Swedish naval architect Af Chapman and what he did for the Royal Swedish Navy (this year celebrating its first 500 years).
Hans Strömberg, Stockholm, Sweden
i await his "guide" on the upturned umbrella
Simply excellent narrative.
Im saying this, hoping it will be seen. Drach, thank you for your hard work, and i loved your stuff with venom geek media. You are a legend.
The pre-Columbian Inca ships sound like they have a fair bit in common with Polynesian stuff (although there are certainly some differences too). Given that there is some evidence of trade and contact between the people of South America and Polynesia, I guess that makes sense, but it's certainly fascinating.
That was kind of Thor Heyerdahl was trying to prove with Kon Tiki.
I actually found them quite different. Given the similar level of technology, some similarities could be expected.
I'm not saying that trade between those people didn't happen though.
But this is not a voyaging canoe.
Look very similar to the Egyptian boats too.
So considering they only started building major cities on European arrival, and were busy inventing a form of unique writing, it's plausable that ships could have been independently developed, particularly given the abilities of the Maori to build Waka from large hollowed out trees using their own form of ship building industry.
Just add tree sap or dry rope for watertightness and wonder.
You don't need metal working for ship building.
The evidence for contact is very thin (not to say it did not happen). The Polynesian ocean-goers were large catamarans, with a platform between the hulls, and a V-shaped sail.
One of the evidence of Polynesian contact with South America are breeds of poultry. Polynesian voyaging canoes carried a good number of livestock including chickens derived from Jungle Fowl. There is evidence of domestic poultry in South America before Spanish contact. There are also the isolated oddities like the rumpless chickens of the Auruacana tribe that lays blue eggs.
Thank you, Drachinifel! . . . (RJT)
Thanks for picking up ARA La Argentina for this video, Drach.
Edit: The Spanish Glorioso deserves a movie by Peter Weir. Thanks for reminding us of the Kon-Tiki expedition. There was a similar expedition in the 1980's, called "Atlantis" and inspired by Thor Heyerdahl's voyage. It sailed from the Canary Islands to Venezuela and the documentary about it was one of the things that made me get interested in ships.
Nice selection. The Baltic and Incan ships were new to me. Really enjoyed the story of the Glorioso.
Starkotter was the name of a nordish folk tale hero. Also known as Starkad. Starkad (Old Norse: Starkaðr [ˈstɑrkɑðz̠] or Stǫrkuðr [ˈstɔrkoðz̠];[1] Latin: Starcaterus; in the Late Middle Ages also Starkodder; modern Danish: Stærkodder)[2] was either an eight-armed giant or the human grandson of the aforementioned giant in Norse mythology.
Starkad appears in numerous accounts, and the stories of his adventures relate to different Scandinavian traditions.[2] He is most fully treated in Gesta Danorum but he also appears in Icelandic sources.[1] He is portrayed as a great warrior who performed many heroic deeds but also many crimes.
From Wikipedia.
Came looking for this the comments did not disappoint, thank you sir.
Okay, fantasy fleets time!
Two La Argentina at the Battle of the River Plate...
An Edgar Quinet class ship at the Falklands as part of a combined British/French squadron...
A squadron of Hemmema frigates operating from Port Mahon in 1801/02 (imagine what Cochrane would have got up to if Speedy had been a "galley frigate" with 36 lbers!)
Notifications working ok! Hope 2023 is better than the last couple?
The way last 3 years happened, I fully expect a nuclear war to happen lol.
The best drinking game is when drach says “but…” “however…” or “ect. ect. ect…”. Always a caveat… omg he said that one too. Love u drach never stop.
As usual you amaze me with the range of your knowledge. The Thor heyerdahl expeditions were for what they accomplished and the sheer endurance of the participant's.
Speaking of alternate tech trees, I'd love to hear about Robert Fulton's Demologos with its central paddle wheel sometime.
Congrats on 400k, been around since the Channel Dash...keep up great content👍
Love the story of the voyage of the Glorioso!
Excellent, Drach, moreso because you can do more of these. All 5 are terrific selections.
A little-known ship you did a short video on, that I felt was a bit purfunctory, is the U.S. light cruiser Helena.
I think that class of light cruisers were superb.
With fifteen 6-inch/47 caliber guns and eight 5-inch/38 caliber guns, they put a lot of shells on target.
The rapid-firing 6-inch guns had a range of over 14 miles. They could each be fired every 6-8 seconds, with a round taking 77 seconds to cover that 14-mile distance.
Think about it.
At that range, when the first broadside by the Helena began to land, there would be another 135 or so incoming rounds in the air.
Those Brooklyn class light cruisers were like 6-inch machine guns, and a broadside also featured four 5-inch/38 caliber guns that could deliver 60 more rounds per minute on the target, with well-trained crews being able to fire each gun 20 times a minute.
At Cape Esperance, the USS Helena opened the action, hosing down one, perhaps 2 Japanese heavy cruisers and also savaged a destroyer.
Not long afterward, at the naval Battle of Guadalcanal, the Helena did serious damage to 5 Japanese destroyers.
Finally, at Kula Gulf in 1943 Helena's luck ran out. In the middle of a fierce fight she took 3 torpedoes after running out of flashless propellant for her main guns.
The first torpedo took her bow off, but Helena's remaining guns kept firing until 2 more torpedoes hit and she went down.
The USS Helena punched well above her weight and deserves to be better known.
Really looking forward to the Glorioso video! Also the Hemmemas are great, amazing adaption to circuimstance. Love the 'alternate tech tree' of the Inca cargo ships - I'd love to see a video of the historic ships of the Pacific, because it's a very similar concept to the 'platform over floats/outriggers/catamaran' concept of the Polynesian crafts.
You might enjoy *The Lost Raft* by Jon Hastlett. Its a story about a guy trying to study the ancient Manteño sailors of Ecuador and demonstrate that their rafts could have reached the Hawaiian islands by building a balsa raft and doing exactly that. Ultimately, the biggest problem were the shipworms - they were absolute murder on the balsa logs and the rafts simply couldn't stay bouyant once they inevitably infested them.
Was surprised but impressed you added the Inca rafts. I read about the Kon Tiki back in the early 70s in grade school. I have enjoyed your videos immensely for about 3 years now. Keep up the great work.
The liner, Duchess of Richmond, brought the cavity magnetron safely to Canada in September 1940. The trunk was labelled "Tizard Mission", and not opened by customs.
Hey! Congratulations on the big 400k Drach. That's what 10 city center size sports arenas (give or take) you could fill with your subscribers.. thank you for all the effort and excellence. I've enjoyed learning about some of thee most major naval battles , commanders, about the history and evolution of technology and strategy used during the period the channel covers all with that subtle humor you sneak in from time to time. More than once while going about my business I've found my self with a smirk on my face from your great storytelling. To you good sir "fair winds and following seas..."
Those Inca boats gave me a lot of old norse longship vibes, in the pros and cons of their construction and their use. The longships, I suppose, are the cool kids who get all the attention while the Inca did the same job just as well
Probably the Barents and North Seas were a bit more lively than the South Pacific, hence the differences in design...
Well, technologically speaking, the norse longships were still boats in the traditional sense, IE a hull that is built to keep the water out, rather than as a flat-bottomed raft. The difference being that a hull has air inside that is technically under the sea level, meaning there is a risk that water can leak into the boat, which then adds to buoyancy. The rafts the incas used apparently had no such things. No problems with leaks or waves washing over the railing and having to bail the water out.
But yes, they were both shallow draft ship meaning they could go in shallow waters and easily beach themselves etc, so they had similar uses. But construction-wise, they were very different.
I think of the Incan balsa rafts as being more like catamarans in both use and sailing properties. Whereas the knar, the Norse cargo and exploration vessel, was a true boat.
The Incan vessels were certainly capable of hauling considerable cargo and making extended sail voyages, as proven by Thor Heyerdahl.
I really wish their voyages had been recorded to know just how much if any Polynesian contact and trade occurred.
Longships are more well-known because they were used to pillage Britain. If the Inca had pillaged Britain we'd have much more detailed records. :D
@@marhawkman303 Yes, or if there were any that were preserved. But yes, you are right, if they had done anythign of historical note, then they would of course be more well-known.
That's a reason for "man bites dog" and how history can be severly skewed due to certain tings becoming far more common due to being put down in detailed records much more than ordinary, everyday things that no one at the time really cared about (because it was everywhere).
IE you only write about the stuff that it out of the ordinary, not the ordinary stuff.
I'm amazed how good a story teller you are. I've enjoyed these vessels narration even more than your usual videos. You made my morning.
Thank you for another informative video. I remember my maternal grandfather giving me a copy of Kon-Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl when I was about 10 tears old. I admired Mr. Heyerdahl. I may not have agreed with his ideas. That said, he was willing to actually put his theories to the test on the open ocean. Something that is very rare is today's world.
Great idea for a video. Here’s one more: I’d love to see some coverage of ships that were successful in their longevity while retaining a fit for purpose. That is, not a hull that was used as an accommodation or training hulk for decades, but those ships that really served usefully for a long time. Examples might be the Russian ship Volkhov/Kommuna, or USS Vulcan (AR-5). Pretty please?
Highly informative. I look forward to the future elaborations promised. The Inca rafts and the Kon Tiki expedition were an unexpected but applauded addition. I love the fact that more recent genealogical testing has proved that some human--and vegetable--communication between South America and Polynesia did occur.
I love hearing about the interesting thing that were going in in late 19th/early 20th c. South America, and I really appreciate your familiarity with the topic. So many interesting vessels outside the German/British/American/Japanese fleets we are overly familiar with.
Still the only channel that no downvotes looks proper. Just fantastic work like always Drach. Hope I get a chance to meet you on the next america tour.
Thanks for your fine history which revealed lots of amazing facts previously completely unknown. The Glorioso had no quit at all.
Glorioso (or however you spell it) was really quite a well-fought ship. Never had heard that story. Most of what I have heard about the Spanish Navy was that they were punching bags for the British and most other European countries. Thank you for adding to my knowledge and balancing my thinking.
Thanks a lot Drach for bringing that story to the surface... Well...the lack of historical research about the Spanish Armada from international sources is, let put it that way, quite "remarkable", and reduced to a list of typical old stories, mostly about the attempt to invade the British Islands in the XVI century and some Galleon, Corsairs and Pirates tales (Hollywood has its part on that)...modern Spanish bibliography tells quite a different, quite balanced perspective, but unfortunately with no translation & publishing abroad.
@@enriquecasalinsmira9795 Can you recommend any good Spanish histories that have been translated into English?
@@gregorywright4918 Sure....there are a few ones...
@@gregorywright4918 Did you gel the links to the books?
@@enriquecasalinsmira9795 No, Thanks for trying though.
I love that upgraded La Argentina idea. Now I wonder how it would do in a single ship action vs some of its contemporaries. The nine guns would make it quite a dangerous foe for other similar vessels and with the upgrades to the machinery areas out running her might not be an option.
The Birger Jarl ship looks cool. Visualizing the Ben Hur battle scene but with cannons.
Congrats on 400k Drach!
Congratulation for 400.000 subscribers ;)
I LOVE the Edgar Quinet! Yes - and for the very childish reason that she LOOKED SO AWESOME. I've always loved warships from the ramming-prow era - and the more turrets, funnels, etc. the better. (For the same reason that I adore the old Great Lakes passenger steamers Seeandbee, City of Detroit, etc.). Sorry, got gushy... LOVE the Quinet! I've collected ship postcards since I was a little kid - some of my prized possessions are old French warships (which usually had glitter on them LOL)... THANK YOU for this great vid!
Very interesting. Thank you for this video. I particularly liked the Glorioso and Inca discussions.
Very good - my 5 included La Argentina and I did know of Edgar Quinets. But the other three were new to me and doubly interesting as a result.
The other side of bias is perspective. Each of our outlooks is unique and that skews things.
We seek to minimize bias, but we also don't want to fully eliminate it. In your channels case, we come for your perspective, Drach.
The Incan vessels were fascinating! I had never heard of them before, and it's eye opening to know what they built and accomplished.
It is good to see a discussion of the balsa rafts of the Incas. One of the peculiar ironies was that Thor Heyerdahl used a mistakenly designed raft to sail to Polynesia operating the raft according "historic" myth. They only discovered part way through the voyage that the raft could be maneuvered readily without the need of a steering oar, which was not documented historically anyway. Heyerdahl actually later built a second raft and demonstrated that using the proper methods, the rafts could sail triangular course tacking against the wind. Such rafts were sailed as far off shore as the Galapagos Islands.
La Argentina is a cool one :). Glad she gets some more exposure
Yeah!
I would have to say my vessel/type of vessel that deserves to be more well known is the various types of multi-hull sailing craft of the Pacific Islands. These sailing canoes are not the most forgotten ships ever (seeing as they have inspired a number of modern designs), but this seems to take the form of vague knowledge of their existance or some traits for the most part (outside of a few examples) rather than a more complete picture on these craft.There is also the interesting navigation methods used by the Polynesians/Micronesians/Melenesians as an additional thing that makes the story of these craft very interesting to me.
A traditional navigator: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Piailug
Very interesting! My 5 might include some obvious ones:-
Väinämöinen
Thonburi
Gorgon (WW1)
Ning Hai (ROCN)
Kormoran (raider)
Great show man . . . Loved it, Bravo
Really looking forward to an expanded look at the Glorioso!
I got to this video a year late 😞 my father in law was the gunnery Sargent aboard the Roger B Tanny during WW2. He was sunk exiting the Panama canal and survived for several days or weeks with the other survivors. He was my best friend ,he was a man of great honor and patience and never spoke about it to anyone.
Hopefully you find this in your archives one day and have the time.
Thank you
The patreon crew really came up with a challenging mission for Drach. This is gonna be good! ✌️🌏☮️
Interesting. The Glorioso is certainly something else
I have always been curious about Project Habakkuk as well as concrete ships of WW1 and WW2
Excellent choices. Another well researched video. Well done.
Really excellent Rum Ration this week. Really enjoyed this one (TBF they're usually really good. I just especially liked this one). Thanks Drach.
Fascinating video, those Baltic frigates are definitely a new favorite of mine now
USS Bon Homme Richard: The Essex class carrier that Jim Morrison's Dad was Captain of.
USS Shangri-La: The carrier whose name was an entirely made up place accredited to FDR saying Doolittle's B25 must have flown from there to attack Japan.
Interesting vid. I was just reading about the BB Lorraine. Serving in WW1, joining the fight in WW2, then escaping with gold before your country fell. Being interned, unsure of your future. Then smashing the enemy's defenses with your "obsolete" guns, for the landings to free your homeland.
So many neat stories that slip through the cracks.
The Voyage of Glorioso could make a cool movie
I was wondering if Kon Tiki would be mentioned. I wonder how many younger people have even heard of it. The Pacific peoples did amazing things in seamanship and navigation especially with no metal tools to speak of. On Kon Tiki they discovered where and now many "centerboards" they used could adjust the raft's course.
How they originally discovered those islands is another question - weather patterns? bird migrations? The world wonders...
Loved the story of the Kon Tiki as a kid. It was a fond memory that came to mind as soon as the rafts were mentioned.
@@gregorywright4918 There are studies the the Polynesians navigated by birds wind and wave patterns. (waves retracting of islands out of sight) and other things. I believe that a traditional elder navigator guided a sailing ship in a circumnavigation some years ago.
From what I've learned since reading "Kon Tiki" in the 1950's, Thor Heyerdahl got it backwards. The Polynesians were the long distance voyagers who sailed from West to East, possibly reaching the Americas. Yes, you can sail East to West on a purpose-built raft, but the Polynesians navigated West to East, some on "frail, single outrigger" canoes.
@@gregorywright4918 Part of the answer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Piailug
I like the comparison of Edgar Quinet and Scharnhorst where Scharnhorst has limited range due to the lower elevation of the casemates, but even when limited to 16 degrees in the casemates the 21cm SK l/40 will still out range the maximum 15 degrees of the 194mm turrets by 1,000 yards and the French casemates are limited to 14 degrees. Blucher will out range her by almost 8,000 yards.
Yoooo you mentioned the pontoons type ships/rafts! I love those things and yet rarely can find much about them.
Odin and its mates were also cleverly designed. You did not say (but not everybody listening might not know) that turning a ship to be able to offer its broadside was a difficulty for age of sail ships. The oars would remove that problem allowing the broadside to track after an opponent as neatly as if the guns were in turrets. The heavy 36-pounders would have presented a serious threat to the hulls of all but first and 2nd rates letting the Odins fight a couple steps above their weight class. They were very reasonable designs for where they fought and I admire their thinking.
Given that last type of vessel, could you look into the polynesian vessels that were used to explore and settle the Pacific islands?
The problem there is that these vessels are mostly speculations. There aren't a lot of records or evidence about them.
@@nehcrum It would still be interesting if Drach can find the time to dig up what little is known along with perhaps some informed speculation from the relevant experts. I vaguely remember seeing a drawing some years ago of a short broad vessel with 2 side by side masts and a trapezoid sail slung (longer edge at the top) between them square rig style. That's all my memory can dig up so, given the vast areas they traversed, something more must be out there somewhere.
The Polynesian Voyaging Society: www.hokulea.com/
A traditional navigator: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Piailug
@@Otokichi786 Slightly different reconstruction than the picture I saw - that had the rather spindly masts side by side, just inboard of the vessels sides, angled slightly apart toward the top and with a trapezoid sail stretched between at the top. Can't remember if it was 2 canoes or a single hull - 2 canoes would make sense and account for the mast positions.
Thank you for the great videos esp the ones on naval armor and guns I have watched them several times
I'm wondering if a carrier pigeon turned up on the deck of the Glorioso wishing the commander a happy birthday and promising air support...
"He was very proud of that..."
Meanwhile on the English flagship... "Message sir, from Dartmouth sir, message reads "request permission, revise list of spares"."
Nab-Paclitaxel does interesting things to my mind...
Or
Ensign Skywalker on the Dartmouth... *(thought bubble)* well, we've still got half a ship...
Always nice to learnt something new in a day, this was a fascinating video.
Some 3 minutes into this ? I'm thinking Sweden's GOTLAND might be included here...
And am looking for further suggestions to proffer to 3D kit model manufacturers, hoping for a 1:700 scale rendition to be made for the marketplace.
Obscure=hard to locate plans ? We'll see.....
Thank you to those that made this suggestion & of course, Drach !!!
🚬😎
the seaplane tender/light cruiser hybrid hswms gotland isnt that unknown, kantai collection brought a lot of attention to her when they introduced her to their japanese "exclusive" web game along with bismarck and prinz eugen
The Glorioso is an obscure ship that should be much better known.
At the tome of her commissioning, the Edgar Quinet was considered quite unsightly, drawing derisive comments along the lines of "sea-going factory" for her six funnels.
SOMEHOW I had never heard of Glorioso. What an incredible story. Thanks for sharing this.
Have you done a history of Coast Guard cutters? I served on the USCG 32 Campbell back in the 1970's, A Secretary Class Cutter... It would be welcome.
I wasn't expecting the last one! I was incredibly interesting.
HSwMS Fylgia is a good one. She was the world's smallest armoured cruiser and made several international voyages. When she was decommissioned, her main guns were repurposed for use in the Kalix line fortifications.
I would add "Foundation Franklin" to this list, she was a salvage tug used in the Canadian/US North Atlantic, I read a book about the exploits oh her and her various crews years ago and it's stuck with me ever since.