Does Destiny Want to Kill All Indigenous People? Debating Destiny & Remthebathboi
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- being the host is actually super fun i should host more debates
18:50 Destiny joins in
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Intro animation credit goes to / itismekyleg & / honeybunnbadger for the visuals, and / sound_sierra for the audio! Thank you!
Destiny is like some evil spirit anytime anyone speaks his name he comes screaming
this made me quite happy
DESTINY! DESTINY! No escaping that for me!
there is an urban legend that if at 3am you wisper "Destiny" 3 times in a mirror he will appear behind you and will start a heated debate
Another legend is if you say " Hasan was right!" Destiny will be summoned!
thanks comrade this made me laugh
Destiny unironically argued in favor of government seizing private property in this debate.
Not really private property but ok
@@Jrce11 Tribal land is considered private property in the U.S., with the tribal government being the landowner.
You can't let just couple of people ruin it for everybody else! Yeah, I agree! Let's expand on that.
there are times when an eminent domain type action can be necessary,and as long as it's done with as much consideration and reparation to the owner of the property commandeered, as well as with accountability and transparency methods, it can be justified.
@@darkarchonisme can be justified for other reasons too
Destiny: It's not like Canada violently invades reservations
Oka crisis : Allow us to introduce ourselves
Yeah... not ANYMORE.
Oh wait what?
WELL NOT SINCE LAST QUARTER OKAY?
@TheEsotericZebra was the land previously Mohawk owned? Were they already fighting to expanding their land so it covered the place where the golf course was gonna be expanded?
@TheEsotericZebra
I would assert that while individual acts may not count as 'cultural genocide' or any such, when seen in the context of a series of many such acts, they certainly seem like... colonialism.
@TheEsotericZebra... wasn't it though? Yet another bit of land ceded involuntarily, taken from an allegedly sovereign people.
"The courts" have provided a legal justification for almost EVERY such act in the past couple hundred years.
Was this as egregious? No, of course not.
Was it yet another small cut, in a seemingly endless stream of material reductions? Absolutely.
TheEsotericZebra
Its not even sure if its the Mohawks who killed the officer or if it was friendly fire.
And RCMP responded peacefully my ass. They putted barbwire all around the reservation, raid multiple times the Mohawks, beating them so hard one of them almost died, forbid food entering the reservation and beaten the whole reservation when they finally surrendered (well, not really surrendered but you get it)
You are clearly not well informed on the subject.
Styxhexenhammer666 didn't debate Vaush in this debate
This is seriously my favorite comment ever since that was revealed. I need it to be on every video coming out.
It was past his bedtime.
@Squid Ink Malding rightoid
Squid Ink and?
If you put this in every debate that exists or will exist ever, it would still be true
A squatter is a person who unlawfully occupies an uninhabited building or unused land. So Destiny is just wrong on this. He used charged and load terms he should have just admitted what he said was a mistake and moved on.
Technically the state owns the land, uses it as a justification to enforce laws upon you, and decides what those laws are.
@@zeyode Land that is conquered by war is generally treated as spoils when a truce is negotiated, meaning that if anybody has survived someone is still signing a piece of paper stating "This land is now yours." Even adverse possession rights are generally resolved through the courts where a legal document will state "That land is now his." The land in question here has no such paperwork or legal backing. It's land claimed by two separate groups, and one of those groups has claimed the land much longer than the other, and can show that they exercised exclusive use of that land before it was claimed by the other.
Also his answer to everything: cash. Presupposes that the indigenous people value that money more then being able to talk to the dead grandparents and exercise their religious beliefs
@@jacksondiaz7092 he has done that, but hyperbolizing indigenous people as "savages" and "squatters" is not a good optics look when discussing colonialism - literally the same language that a white nationalist would trot out to defend ethnostates, only WNs would do it unironically.
you don't need to "pretend to be woke" to take a cheap shot and state the obvious.
EDIT: also, 4 youtube likes as of 5:45 05-22-2020, wow, they're really raking in the brownie points, rolling in the dough!
Jackson Diaz Destiny is the poster boy for lowkey liberal racism. That doesn’t take away all his great work demolishing Alt Righters and deradicalising many of them but it is what it is.
Destiny was half cuban in this debate
*esteban
Hes also a gusano
@@Rensoku611 dont say that calling him that is racist lol
Which makes sense since Cubans are the white uncle toms of the Latinos
He also was fully destroyed in this debate
Vaush was white in this debate.
Dead Ninja Storage ???
@Dead Ninja Storage How dare you not recognize Vaushs Nordic Manbun Blood
@@theindigenoushulk5427 Don't you know? There was a nude selfy pic of Vaush with a star of david on his junk. Even that NazBol kid knew that.
@Dead Ninja Storage Punassy. Learn to hold your drink.
@@theindigenoushulk5427 It is, actually. He's a really dedicated orbiter. I don't think this person has a job.
Every time I catch one of Vaush's streams I see him in UA-cam chat.
Last time I was this early indigenous people were untouched by colonialism.
If only it stayed like this
I dunno whether to laugh or cry. 😅
Destiny used the word ‘irregardless’ in this debate.
I'm relieved someone else picked up on this
Its actually a real dictionary word now. We can stop being pedantic about it.
@@BulgarianMafia It's incorrect wether its in the dictionary or not.
@@skillbopster thats not how language works lol
@@skillbopster lmao 'wether', said the language purist
Rem "first nation's peoples are still being sterilized and discriminated against" destiny "thats cool"
@TheEsotericZebra You have actually never read about Canada's first nations if you say something like this
What did he say that. How can anyone listen to destiny
@TheEsotericZebra I'm not a Rem stan but he was just straight up correct on this.
TheEsotericZebra you have no idea about what your talking about
@TheEsotericZebra Canada used to activate steralize native women dude. Please read up on what you're talking about.
Love Destiny getting triggered at Rem for not not being super knowledgeable about the issue that he himself knows absolutely nothing about.
Rem was the one who brought up said topic dummy
@@BizarrePower Destiny still made strong statements on the issue on a large platform without any knowledge whatsoever of the issue or Canadian politics in general.
@@BizarrePower no one is allowed to have a discussion about anything unless they can prove they've read at least 5 books on the subject
Lieh Tzu very true. Destiny really doesn’t know about Canadian politics. Also I’ve been researching native culture for years now. And native culture is very tied to their land. Like destiny knows jack shit
Except for the fact that Rem has hammered hard on the importance of being educated on a subject before making sweeping claims it, so it's ironic seeming him say he's "read 10 books" on the indigenous people of Canadian lands and turn around and say "oh well I don't know so much about that one"
amazing, the only way that destiny seems to be able to have an amicable debate with vaush is if he is too busy being triggered by someone else to spend effort being triggered by vaush
amazin’
Destiny's strawman attacks are hard to listen to. At one point REM said... "I know more about A group of people than B group of people", then Destiny instantly replies... "Okay so you read 10 books on this topic but know nothing about B group".
destiny is so clearly just trying to lump all indigenous people together when there are so so so many different tribes with their own values and ways of living. it’s incredibly frustrating to listen to
@Smoke Tree You've committing the same logical error as Destiny, as REM did not say he knows nothing about B, he said he knows more about A. Here's the correct analogy...
REM: I know more about the American Revolution than the French Revolution.
Destiny: Oh so you've read 10 books and no literally nothing about the French Revolution.
This is a strawman fallacy, but after thinking about it some more, I realized that it's also another logical fallacy known as.... "Affirming the Consequent" fallacy.
@@ScorpionXII Not really though. His argument is that group B is so ubiquitous in the topic that it’s really difficult to know anything significant about group A without also knowing about Group B. An example would be someone who knows a lot about multiplication should also know a lot about addition. But also Rem failed to substantiate much about either Group A or Group B when pushed on it. So even though he claims he knows more about Group A than Group B, he didn’t demonstrate much knowledge of either.
Destiny carpet bombed Mexico in this debate.
He does seem to like to destroy weaker nations
as a Mexican living in Mexico, I'd be down for that.
it was justified because they couldn't defend themselves.
Wait ... children can't defend themselves.... wow, oof.
Destiny's solution to everything: "Just move!"
Similar to Ben Shapiro's advice to moving to deal with "hypothetical" rising sea levels.
@@jstevinik3261 It's not the same at all. Shapiro said just sell your flooded house. Destiny says move *if you can.*
Which is hilarious because I don't think he felt the "just move" thing was okay when Castro made his family do it.
He’s a rich, elitist neoliberal douchebag.
@@Big-Papa-Smurf "Move if you can" works for some people. Destiny was arguing that it works for all.
Vaush is just out here playing Terraria whilst the literal slaughter of an indigenous tribe happens over the mic
Kenny langholz “literal slaughter?”
Where?
Come from Asia "indigenous people"
Comes from Europe "genocidal colonizers"
@tankiehatingsocialist678 yeah considering the indigenous people came tens of thousands of years ago. Are Irish people not indigenous to Ireland just cuz they originally came from Africa
"if big country needs monee they can invade lil country because poor people in big country ned monee" -destinee
Its all fun and games until your people are starving.
damn the rich in the big country should have paid their taxes innit
@@thebrowhodoesntlift9613 Tax the riches more
countree
wait, did Destiny just justify the quest of the German people for more Lebensraum?
I feel kind of bad talking about oil pipelines benefiting a majority, when obviosly it is kind of a bad time to expand fossil energy infastructure. Honestly Trudeau should just build a couple of wind mill parks instead or something
Of course it doesn't benefit the majority, especially not in the long run. Plus, its not like the native communities actually benefit off fossil fuels anyway, all the money is syphoned off.
@@dog-ez2nu not to mention - this pipeline is for the tar sands, which is extremely crude oil that has to be heavily refined. They basically sell it cheap overseas... it's not even used locally. it's just so some corporations can make extra money.
Distancing ourselves from fossil fuels and aggressively invest in green energy; is the forbidden third option that the CG and lobbyists don’t want you talk about...
@@TheTruthVScompliance Hence, nationalizing it.
Wind is a fucking joke though, the actual energy output of it rn is tiny
It such a shame Vaush only heard the "and you're white" thing now, that would have been amazing to see how Dankula's fans would have got so "triggered" by it 😂😂
It only works with lefties tbh, if it was said to a right winger they would say "Yeah so? I don't have white guilt like you sjw cucks"
@@ascii_9727 That's not the point. The point is that dismissing them because they're white is what pisses them off and that's what's funny. No one has white guilt, it's the trolling that sets them off lol.
Edit: To clarify, I was talking about right wingers getting set off.
@@isakbd3450 I try to leave conversations like that for the 'in-group' for sure. Gotta code-switch with the right and hit their weak spots. We can be intersectional, but it can't be forced... that comes from living and working around others.
@@isakbd3450 did u subscribe to vaush just to comment under every video? thats great, thanks for helping the channel grow my friend!
Seems like a good thread to drop the 'alt-right playbook' link again...
ua-cam.com/play/PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ.html
People made "in this debate" jokes in this debate
People made "people made 'in this debate' jokes in this debate" jokes in this debate.
@@RavenholmZombie People made "people made "people made 'in this debate' jokes in this debate" jokes in this debate."
People made "people made 'people made 'in this debate' jokes in this debate' jokes in this debate" jokes in this debate
Who the fuck took down my perfectly fine comment about wanting to be all of these people's new stepdad?...
I just want to make love to their mother's for making such amazing human beings.. :(
@@Mhinqa This thread needs more "This thread needs more meta
" comments.
Destiny disregarded the heinous mistreatment of First Nations peoples in residential schools for over 100 years and as late as 1996 in this debate.
Why is Destiny even talking about indigenous issues in Canada? It's so obvious that he is completely uneducated and is not even aware of the very basic big picture historical events on these matters...
Seriously... when I realized that native children in the states were still being kidnapped into Christian foster care in the 90's... yikes.
@Fonky Munk Not really sure what that comment has to do with Harrison1875's comment... In fact aren't you strawmanning by responding to them with a whiny fake quote criticizing Destiny and then afterwards deflecting towards Rem instead of adressing the disturbing fact that Destiny speaks like he has any authority on a topic he is so far out of his depth that it's not even funny and borders on the reactionary(like literally using squatters when referencing indigenous nations on their land...)?
For some reason I thought it was '76, but then I realized that was only my family's one.
@@cf3714 I was... 8, in 1990.
Not that they were doing it to all the kids at that late late, but still... my own age.
Destiny sounds like the bad guy from Avatar. "They'll get a new tree."
Thats actually a funny/good analogy
Retweet
No, he's just pragmatic, while you're an idiot.
@@lollll9932 Destiny fans are the most sycophantic losers of any fanbase I can imagine. Jesus christ
@@lollll9932 found the triggered Destiny fanboy, lmao
"You cant run this back very far" ... Destiny unironically making the "slavery ended 200 years ago get over it" argument
You can't go back infinitely
*Rem brings up something that happened less than a century ago*
"You can't just go back that far"
Hey you’re the book review dog guy! great videos man
@@williambidgood7373 oh cool thank you.
"Destiny unironically making the "slavery ended 200 years ago get over it" argument"
Destiny has clearly the opposit opinion about that, you must be in bad faith if you wrote that...
and yes reparations can't go too far back...it would be too dumb...
should italian ask reparation to france for the napoleonic invasion?
but wait...before that during the roman empire era the italians invaded france (Gaul) so should actually italian pay french?
ancient greek conquered the south of italy, so should italy demand payment from greece?
and btw you can say the same about the tribes in america too as they fought between eachother even before the arrival of europeans
Especially considering that residential schools only ended in the 90s and there's allegations of indigenous people being coerced into sterilization to this day. It's literally not over.
In which Destiny calls Indigenous people who are protesting for their RIGHTS and the environment “squatters” and says it’s okay for them be oppressed for the benefit of the state
So authoritarian! I wonder whether he even realises that he is arguing for an authoritarian actions here
scratch a Destiny
I'm not familiar with the entire situation regarding the wet'suwet'en people and the oil pipelines. But I think you're being disingenuous in Destiny's position. Destiny is just coming at this from a utilitarian perspective. It's really a cost benefit analysis, do we allow the natives to maintain their autonomy if overall social welfare of Canada is increased? Well, assuming that the decision affects the general population of Canada, the total population of Canada is larger than that of the native populations living on the reservations. So overall, again assuming the situation benefits most the general Canadian population substantially ( and by substantially, by measure of some metrics, the social welfare of the general population society is increased to such an extent it is greater than the decrease in social welfare experience as a result of the moving them off the resrevations), then we just choose to move them off of the reservations. I'm not sure exactly how you would quantify these types of things in this instance, but yea. That's what he's going for here. I don't sense disdain for the natives.
@Z'Q Sure you can make that argument from a utilitarian perspective. It would all depend on what you define to be "increasing the better good of society" and how harvesting liberals organs would maximize it. That justification will come from what are your axiomatic beliefs in regards to morality. I'could argue for a variety of different reasons by "moving native Americans from their reservations" and "wanting to harvest the organs of liberals" two different things from my own morals and why i would find one of them to morally justifiable and the other one isn't.
@Z'Q Based ngl
Destiny: "So anyway, I started blasting."
R. H.F. He totally got with Gail the Snail.
Destiny and Vaush almost got remarried in this debate
Vaush can do better
I don’t know. Destiny’s pretty cute.
@@zacharyknutsen8094 but that makes him a good side piece, not husband
Hi Vaush, Destiny fan here. I came here just to say that you put forward a lot of great concepts and ideas here. Destiny's ideas helped me out of the alt-right originally, and I think im gonna watch more of your content though now :) thanks buddy.
@@herec0mestheCh33f Destiny can be a wild card sometimes, I really think he has good intentions tho, he is also a bit of an entertainer lol. His stuff with Jontron, Nick, and Sargon were all my faves.
Welcome!
Welcome to the Vaush Pit buddy :)
Just know that Destiny knows absolutely nothing about indigenous peoples. I highly recommend learning from them, either directly if possible, or via anthropology texts - cultures that have survived and are much more free and egalitarian than our own have a lot to offer (without romanticizing nor ignoring the vast diversity).
skullypit so you used to be Nazi that believes in genocide now your a communist who believes in genocide
Destiny: "that's my guess" after attacking Rem all this time, his only defense for his position is based on a guess. A guess that is wrong. I find Rem really annoying but that was such bad faith
@@mausklick1635 Except Destiny has no clue what "squatter" means.
@@mausklick1635 Oh god, which one? _DestinHe_ or _Hem?_ No but seriously, I haven't heard Destiny make a good argument for this, and I'm even inclined to believe that Rem's being the more unreasonable one just from what I know about the two. And yet Rem still seems like he's making more sense.
Got any chance of a clarification?
About climate change? If so, he’s not wrong, entirely. Not building the pipeline will increase emissions. However there are other environmental concerns, such as continuing normalization if fossil fuel expansion and of course inevitable spills and leaks.
Destiny was being obnoxious to rem tho. Kept on talking over him and then giving smug one liners to make it appear like his point was “winning”.
No axioms have been grounded in this debate.
Idk dude, Rem sounds pretty fucking grounded to me.
@@KrazyKaiser Just to be sure-that's a pun, right?
Destiny Trudeau invaded indigenous territory in this debate
Every time I hear Destiny talk (usually with Vaush) he sounds like a total idiot. Am I just somehow hearing only his dumbest takes or is he all like this?
As a Mi'kmaq (Micmac) descendant watching this is nothing but pain, yes land is integral to culture how is this even a question? jeeeez
I'm Passamaquoddy and land is a big part of our culture too. Destiny is talking out of his ass
@@RavenholmZombie Aw cool a Wabanaki friend, you're completely right
Some would argue that most of the time culture is directly derived from land. A lot of what is invented and passed on is a direct result in how geography affects people. How can he not see this? It’s true for people that aren’t even indigenous
im not from the US and i know very little about native american culture and even i know that the land and environment is integral to the culture and religion of many tribes
I really enjoyed some of Destiny's other debates but it irked me so bad that he just brushed off Rem's very informed position in which Destiny simply couldn't, despite sounding Authoritarian.
"Without the pipeline a lawyer won't have a job litigating it"
Why am I listening to this?
For the terraria gameplay lol
Wtf squatters didn't 'get there first,' squatters got there after someone already built stuff there.
I mean, call me pedantic but you could say they "squatted" because they came here from somewhere else and just started living. After all, no one sprung up out of the ground in America, everyone is an immigrant. If someone sets up tents and starts living in undeveloped wildlands, could you describe that as squatting?
@@LeidenPierce I mean, to squat is to 'unlawfully occupy an uninhabited building or settle on a piece of land.' If there's no one there prior to make laws then no piece of land can be settled unlawfully.
Destiny's idea that if you don't have the pipeline people will not have jobs, is a bit silly that money doesn't just puff out of existence without the pipeline, it means all those billions will be spent elsewhere creating jobs, if put into renewable it could actually create more jobs than the pipeline. Destiny also keeps on acting like without this pipeline Canada has to import oil when Canada already has pipelines just like this one. His positions seem to be just him trying to get a rise out of Rem for annoying him earlier
Destiny has no fucking idea what's happening with Alberta and the pipeline and the Wet'suwet'en people. The oil company and gov't rejected two alternate pipeline routes proposed by the band.
@@Dinobot2 To be fair I'm pretty sure our country needs to ship the oil we produce due to a lack of refineries at home. That said, we could also address this by FINALLY building our own refineries, and I would rather invest the money in directly advancing renewable or even nuclear energy production. It's important to remember that given enough time, climate change could get fairly apocalyptic.
@@maramagnus2587 source?
Steven "The Trail of Tears was just the start" Bonnell
Where's this quoted from? I've not watched this whole thing yet if it's from this
@@joshstead6078 it's a joking exaggeration of his position in this debate
25:52 Calling indigenous people "squatters" is a big brain gamer move
That was honestly disgusting to hear considering how Canada forced them off their territory onto reserves living in poverty. It’s shit land but it’s theirs by right. To call them squatters is ignorant and frankly cruel.
Calling us squatters like we have somewhere to go.
@@davidbrobinson1995 Yup, really easy to not get back to watching Destiny
@@davidbrobinson1995 I mean, aren't you a Canadian citizen? You can move to anywhere in Canada what do you mean you have nowhere to go?
@@mckenzie.latham91 that sounds like a problem with an outdated and unmodernised culture. Europeans also used to live in Tribes with their land as their holy place and they had holy rocks and trees etc. However, they evolved because evolving past such nonsense is necessary for development and advancement. So it sounds like Native Americans nees to evolve their cultures.
This debate was so wild you should do more of these
It was a joke. Nobody even challenges the assumption that an extra oil pipeline is benefiting Canadians
L L Why would it not?
@@LL-cz5ql You chose a bad time for me to read this argument. They challenged Destiny on that point in the part I'm watching literally right now, at around 48 minutes.
Davinsky Debunks I checked out the video, aaaaand you’re a nazi.
L L this was exactly what I’ve been thinking about during the aftermath of this. What data is there to show that it’s to the benefit to the entirety of the country and not just the oil company and pipeline contractors? And that doesn’t even get into the details of
Environmental factors
Destiny's Canadian pipeline twitch debate was horrific. It was the complete opposite of Vaush's
He went full NeoLib, defended colonialism, and said all native territories should be forcibly assimilated
saw that stream live and was shocked!! Destiny was UNHINGED
It sometimes just feels like Destiny is TRYING to take the most awful position possible on some issues. Like he can't just be mildly awful about a topic, if he's awful he's AWFUL.
True.
He also debates rightwingers on trans issues more calmly and in better faith than when debating about things like colonialism or globalization. When those topics come up? Comically bad faith arguments and screeching at his opponent.
Rem was incredibly bad faith. He kept referring to the wetsuwetten first nations decision as the one of the hereditary chiefs, instead of the elected council. He literally decided the inherited positions was more valuable than the democratic one.
@@jesush.christ6184 bruh, Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy. Not that you have any power in a US Republic either
Just going to point out that Destiny's utilitarian argument could be used to justify reinstating slavery in the US. It provided an economic benefit to the majority of the nation, so following his logic, enslaving a minority would be the moral thing to do...
Does he, like, actually think about the implications of his arguments before he makes them?
Thankyou this makes a lot of sense.
To answer your question, no. He doesn't follow his arguments to their logical extremes, so more often than not you can hit him with a modest proposal and watch his house of cards collapse.
Destiny comes across to me as a narcissistic elitist American imperialist/exceptionalist so he’d probably be okay with it.
How on earth do you get an approval of slavery from a utilitarian calculation? The benefit is tiny compared to the amount of suffering.
@Andres G. Padro Utilitarianism, by definition, takes into account the feelings of everyone who is affected by an action. It sums the feelings of all individuals.
Destiny's ignorance on how Cultural Exchange works (and more specifically how it does NOT work) makes the Sociologist in me almost tear up.
Outside of literally kicking the indiginous people into generations of poverty, if you were to take them into the Canadian system (since they'd have no property and no representation in the systems of power what so ever), compensation has a few issues:
1) It would never be able to correctly value what is actually being lost be the people, especially in the long term, since cities are constantly expanding in modern civilization (due to overproduction one way or another, but doubly so in Capitalism where new living spaces are required to have more space for people, more people = more consumption = more profit) the value of their lands in increasing pretty much every day. They'd be cheated either way, especially because;
2) They don't have the ability to negotiate in a favourable way for themselves. Not because they're stupid, but because they suffer from a power imbalance in terms of what they bring to the negotiation table. There is a limit to what they could - even given a well meaning helper in terms of negotiations - even expect to get, before their opponent chooses to go with just taking the land anyway. And option they already have, and that is likely not in full force because of the public image of that move and what could result of it, but it DOES still present a power imbalance.
3) Whatever compensation they would get, would not just have to outweigh how much land and property they are losing, it would also have to finance them completely migration into a system that more or less pressured them out of their lands, and no matter what you do, till that cultural assimilation happens they are more likely to enter poverty and debt because they won't make decisions savy enough to do extremely well, at least not on a macro level, because on many levels that culture is foreign to them, and they do not even have the cultural capital to make it in Industry Nations (at least not from the get go). Again that is not low expectations, that is a result of missing a cultural capital requiring extended living in a specific habitus to acquire. (If someone doesn't understand that academic jizzing, just ask and I can explain what I mean by that)
But yeah, "compensation" isn't a Fire and Forget method to resolve this. And that is completely outside of appealing to Destiny's potential interest in keeping indiginous cultures alive. My argument moves completely outside of Imperialist critiques that could absolutely be stacked upon all that, whether or not you have a heart.
What do you think about the descendants of slaves in America?
I really appreciate this detailed reply, I'm gonna try and file these points away for later.
@The505Guys ah yes, ethnoseparatism for the win. Because I'm sure the people in Africa would totally take kindly to an influx of millions of people they have no real connection to beyond skin color, and I'm sure that people who have lived here for generations would love to up and leave for a land and society they have no major connection to beyond skin color.
The sociologist in you should tear up on the regular for being a fucking sociologist. How's that replication crisis treating you in theory-land?
The505Guys do you not know that this had already been attempted in Liberia? What happened was a lot of cultural conflict and black americans (minority) having power of the native africans there (majority) and treating them badly.
When you consider the environmental damage, then even from a full on utilitarian perspective, the pipeline is immoral
Yeah, if we invested in green energy instead, maybe. But pipelines are a more environmentally friendly way of shipping oil.
first last i mean, if they’re made well. But, they’re not...
Destiny bullied an autistic kid in this debate.
I mean...
Bro....
afrolefty he was just tired bro
Kay T i im not picking on rem, that's destiny's thing now. First Joshua4Congress now rem lol
Leafyishere
Destiny : doesn't understand the environmental ramifications of building on indigenous land
plus he's white
Squatters, hm? _Squatters, hmmm?_
I hate Destiny so much. He's so wrong in so many ways and he's still so arrogant about it.
Forgive me but I wish someone would kick his ass
The Romans were just liberating Europe from all those squatters!
Nyanx4 yeah that choice of word is very telling
@@drone124 thats pretty cringe.
When you boil it down it's not inconceivable to see the situation in that lens.
You don't want to bulldoze over the rights of individuals but when does the wellbeing of a small minority outweigh the wellbeing of a majority?
There has to be *some* point where an overwhelming benefit to the greater amount of people makes up for the discomfort of a smaller group. We already have laws to displace people when needed so this isn't too different. You can also compensate the discomfort via other means (primarily financial but possibly in some other ways as well).
Squatters is a strong term but what other word would you use in a heated moment where you had little time to prepare your language/presentation and where looking to describe a group of people you believe are placing their right to live in a very specific location over other's access to that location simply because they were there first and refuse any solution of relocation?
"Forced them to wear normal clothes." Destiny has never met a native. Do you think they still love in teepees, and wigwams? Dafuq dude?
Ok I know you said this 9 months ago but holy shit dude, Destiny is clearly referencing the cultural genocide committed by Europeans onto Indigenous Americans back in the days of Colonization.
The only way I can understand your take is a WILD predisposition to all Destiny's opinions being dog shit
I'm not a native and I got so pissed listening to that dumbass.
@@blueygooey8899 ^^^^
As least you still have culture. North African culture was wiped out a 1000 years ago by Islam.
Alternative title: Vaush vibes and plays Terraria while 2 guys are yelling
That sounds like the name of a gay porno
Vaush was doing his best to help Rem out. Rem is right in this situation I just think he's kinda bad at arguing his points.
He is. Destiny really didn’t do his research
Rem had a tough time in this one, but Destiny really refused to talk to him with any charity. Totally agree that Rem took the right larger stance.
Why would Destiny talk with any good faith towards Rem when Rem loves resort to lame wokescold exaggerations of points he disagrees with? "Oh WOOOOOOW. WOOOOOOW Soyoureallywanttokillalloftheindigenouspeopleinthis area?" Seriously fuck off with that shit. I'm sure you can tell that Destiny's conversation with Vaush in this video was much more fruitful, because Vaush knows what charitability and nuance is.
Something weird's going on with the audio setup, if Vaush or Destiny are talking Rem's audio gets completely muffled so Destiny can just completely talk over him every time.
@@Trebuchetify Except Rem was perfectly capable of talking to Vaush in a reasonable manner. It's almost as if both of them were the problem.
The incredibly dogmatic and reactionary way Destiny went about this debate was disheartening. He also lacked a lot of sympathy towards the indigenous people of Canada. He knows next to nothing about them but is incredibly quick to judge their culture and deem them as an other to fit his own needs. I’m really disappointed in his downward spiral
Same. I am just scrolling comments to get a sense of the video because the topic is so very painful, and it looks like the way it was treated would be too hard for me to listen to. I’m sad that such influential people could demonstrate such callousness and lack of understanding towards people who are still affected by genocide.
Destiny was copying Vaush’s mannerisms in this debate
Honestly they're in an ouroboros of mannerism copying at this point
Woahwoahwoahwoah as an interruption blocker is my favourite
vaush lite
He is allowed. Destiny did trailblaze Vaushs format, and he did give Vaush a platform leading to this channel. Vaush definately takes a lot of inspiration from Destiny and I found it kind of heartwarming Destiny's tone towards Vaush. Like he is happy for his success and the two are absolute gold when debating each other, and I think a big reason why is that there is a mutual respect there.
@@meaningfulnonsense9561 In an alternate universe this comment still probably wouldn't make any friggin sense. Destiny has made it very clear he doesn't like vaush lmao.
Destiny sounds a lot like an old school Neo-Con in this debate...
Liberalism is a hell of a drug
2020 libs are just 2000 neo-cons who dont hate lgbt or muslim people as much or openly.
Destiny sounded like a fucking colonialist in this debate tbh
Listening to Destiny is always fun entertainment but it's actually wild how much of a lib he is. Like he's an orthodox lib.
ngl destiny was an orthodox lib in this debate 🤔🤔🤔🤔
I consider myself a liberal. Do you have any contentions you'd like to discuss or do you just want to get on your fox news chair and whine about liberals?
B T Pretty sure the people above are leftists (nice try with the Fox News stuff tho)
If destiny wasn't white the "plus your white" thing would genuinely be so obnoxious holy fuck
Zachary Entenman he’s not white
Destiny was ignorant on Native history in this debate
"Destiny was ignorant." Fixed for ya.
Terrible, really clueless.
@Cian Abroad Dismissive of Native culture, ignorant of the cultural genocide that's been inflicted on them in Canada as recently as the 90s
@Communist Alpha Male Banging Capitalist Beta males He should always be called Manifest Destiny from now on
@@dogsauce19 I'll second that
i feel like in this Rem had very correct points, he was just awful at arguing for them.
There is a tendency among woke-left circles to conflate ideologically sound rhetoric with logically compelling rhetoric. I don't think Rem said a single thing I actually disagree with in this entire debate, but he has seemingly no ability to rephrase his arguments to appeal to people outside his ideological persuasion. Vaush has that ability, though.
@@Mrcrazy80 Vaush was trying so hard to help Rem rephrase his points, but Destiny kept interrupting them.
@Nick Fanchette literally this. The point about woke-left's having difficulty speaking outside of their ideology is true but this goes so far beyond that. Destiny strayed so far into bad faith reductionism that it's a wonder Rem even bothered to keep attacking the same points sometimes. Sad really
Destinys comments here come from a complete lack of understanding of Canada. Our government works differently then America and our relationship with firsts nations is very unique compared to America. Rem sounding triggered the whole time is bad optics but as a Canadian listening to destiny is cringe. When Rem says just look at Oka he’s right.
I don’t think there’s any other way Rem could have approached this because Destiny just had such absolute contempt for First Nations people and history. He admitted he didn’t care about them (while also mischaracterizing the severity of harm done to them vs any “harm” done for not having a pipeline).
There are a lot of battles in this Vaush story arc
I'm kind of ready for the vaush moderator arc. The omly thing working against it is that he will try to fix the arguments of whoever he agrees with.
The best debaters make the best moderators honestly
Vaush wasn’t actually moderating.
@@odst123451 Not in the pyrrhonist sense, no. I'm glad that isn't the case, honestly. Pyrrhonism presents both ideas as right from a perspective, while giving no incentive for the person in the wrong to change their ideology.
Black people invented
🎷mega future jazz🎷
in this debate
* *playing the space **_LICC_** furiously over **_GIANT STEPS_* *
[jazz music intensifies]
Committing genocide in exchange for mega future Jazz is a fair trade
Ya like JAZZZZ.
watching destiny compare the sovereignty of indigenous peoples to white nationalism has turned me into a black nationalist
Unironically, consider supporting People's movements in the Southwest if you can. There is a pretty big struggle over getting mestizo/native history taught, and 'La Raza' seems like a good movement.
They aren't nationalists, I think. mostly just about culture and civil rights.
Based on like the first minutes of destiny speaking it seems like he is arguing in bad faith
Destiny's entire MO is the motte and bailey. He'll say something retarded like that the land should be taken from the natives by the government if they want, and then he'll act indignant when people call him out on it. "What I meant is, if there was an imminent catastrophe that would destroy all of Canada and the only way to stop it was to expropriate native land and dig in it, then it'd be justified! And I don't appreciate being characterized as somebody who would just support rolling them over for no reason!"
Well, shit son, yeah, when you add that many conditioning factors long after the fact, yeah, you suddenly sound like less of a piece of shit, who'd have figured.
Lean Mantern glad we all support Israel because If we didn’t it’s cultural genocide
@@sacta he's so frustrating. why do people think he's the messiah of online debate
When is destiny *not* arguing in bad faith?
He’s a highly overrated, blustering douchbag, with an annoying brigading worshiping group of cult followers.
@@landonjacob8922 Destiny's arguments in this video are anti-Palestine, any argument that boils down to "a stronger nation is justified in taking whatever they want if the other nation can't stop them" isn't as anti-Israel as you believe.
Why does Destiny always have to talk in these massive hyperboles?
"Do you believe that this applies to every person that has ever lived in every country ever"?
Like dude, just have an ounce of charitability
He's the lib version of Ben Shapiro
Sneaky debate tactics
He lacks the education to articulate himself properly. It may sound rough, but that is what it boils down to.
He's slippery
Vaush does the same thing.
Destiny: Pretending that any Canadian Indigenous people are listening to this right now...
Me: 👁️👄👁️
The Natives we're there before the pipeline. The people funding the pipeline are the squatters. You can use that money to find other jobs in fact more jobs in other communities. The pipeline would not just destroy the land but the community that they we're apart of for year's. Destiny did not do research or even look at what happened in North Dakota and how it affected the people there and the big oil spill.
being somewhere before others isn't really the greatest argument though. Humans have always moved to different places.
@@SocialistFinn1 yes, by environmental influences, not bigger countries forcing them to. When that happens, it’s a bad thing. Yknow, like what America and Canada did with- oh, wait....
Manifest Destiny.
k destiny has no idea what he’s talking about and it is so frustrating to watch
Vaush 'moderated' this debate
Destiny has been moderated in this debate.
@@dayvie9517 Agreed. I'm not familiar with his content, but I hear people talk about him a lot, and they usually say good things, but holy shit he's completely indefensible. He honestly sounds like he's just about to be a fucking Nazi.
@@KrazyKaiser He is socially liberal usually, but is imperialist in foreign policy.
@@KrazyKaiser How is he like a nazi? I like how whenever people attack destiny or vaush its always without specific timestamps or actual points.
If vaush is a nazi, destiny is an anarcho nazbol
@@declaringpond2276 They were talking about destiny being about to be a nazi
Destiny's idea that if you don't have the pipeline people will not have jobs, is a bit silly that money doesn't just puff out of existence without the pipeline, it means all those billions will be spent elsewhere creating jobs, if put into renewable it could actually create more jobs than the pipeline. Creating further dependence on oil is a terrible idea now. Destiny also keeps on acting like without this pipeline Canada has to import oil when Canada already has pipelines just like this one. His positions seem to be just him trying to get a rise out of Rem for annoying him earlier
Ewww, did he really take that stance?
Goddamn guy can be such a shill sometimes. Its baffling.
Baffling.
100 percent correct. This pipeline would only EXPAND our capability to move oil to the coast. It's a shortsighted, short-term solution to "creating jobs" that only reinforces Canadas dependance on oil. The idea that the pipeline is for the greater good of all canadians and therefore justified is a joke. If anything this will hurt canadians long term as it is billions of taxpayer dollars that could have been invested into green energy infrastructure... that pandering pos Trudeau ran on a platform of environmentalism and then turned around and bought out the pipeline. Fuck that.
Further the reason the pipeline is being built is because it is cheaper than the existing method of transporting the oil.
What’s everybody’s honest opinion about Destiny? He went full neoliberal lately
he sounds like an angry, PMS'ing pseudointellectual in this video. Like, he sounds like a centrist ben shaprio in this video, logical fallacies abound. "what books did you read about natives" SHUT UP
I feel that ever since the n word drama, his politics are mainly based off of spite towards the left.
I used to like his content, but I grew to detest him more and more as I went further left.
He's a Neo-Liberal hack with his head stuck up his ass.
Not gonna lie I still love the guy, he becomes a spite driven shitposter whenever anyone on the left breathes at him and its fucking hilarious.
Z'Q building a pipeline is genocide imagining people so retarded than you can’t do anything about Israel because it’a Jewish culture
Rem: [says something]
Destiny: "Shut the fuck up Rem"
Vaush: [says the same exact thing]
Destiny: "Yeah okay I can agree with that"
It’s more like
Rem: [says something but with terrible optics]
Destiny: “shut the fuck up”
Vaush: [says the same thing but with better optics]
Destiny: “I can agree with that”
wym by optics
Destiny placed the interests of 'Big oil' over sovereign rights of citizens in this debate
Non-anthropologists, like Destiny, should either read up on what culture means, and how it has been conceptualized in the case of non-european societies across the decades of anthropological scholarship, or simply not engage in this debate thinking that they know how the natives won't be affected by a "little" territorial displacement.
You want that oil pipeline to further desires which should not come at the cost of displacing people who are clearly not in a position to defend themselves, not redistribute your own wealth to feed your people adequately, and then have the gall to say: bUt MuH eCoNoMy! If your economy doesn't take every single community into confidence, and runs purely on the strength of numbers, then it is already in crisis.
Edit: oh! And by the way, read La Sagesse de Kondiaronk by David Graeber. You'll discover that the Native Americans actually contributed enormously to the growth of democracy in Europe, but that part of history, recorded by jesuit priests in the 16th century, just got wiped out, and merely fictionalized as "journal entries" and novels such as "letters from a peruvian princess". Their "hereditary" systems don't function like the patriarchal Indo-European kinship systems. There are many problems with native american cultures, but to be rubbished off as "primitive" is so 18th century (yeah, the irony of being primitive). There is literally no attempt to have an honest discussion with the native people. These points about how their lands must be taken away because they have an inferior political structure anyways only crop up when their land is to be taken away. Has destiny himself tried to ever talk to native americans IN america about these issues? No, of course not, and it isn't necessary for him to do so. But he should at least not say stupid stuff. The west has always had a gun in their hand when they do so, and that is not a conversation.
Thanks for the recommendation 🙏🏽🥀
What has happened to Destiny? He's lost his mind
@True Perfection You hit the nail on the head with that one.
His messy breakout with Hasan pushed him over the edge into reactionary anti leftism.
@Cashel A. Nelson his might makes right takes are a cancer way to view ethics
@Cashel A. Nelson What do you mean? He is far from the most popular leftist (assuming to include social liberals) channel. Do you mean be winning, in terms of political results?
@Cashel A. Nelson How is that at all relevant to my comment? I believe he has a net positive impact and I'm a big fan of a lot of his content. Did I ever say otherwise? that doesn't change how insane a lot of his takes are in this debate saga
Destiny was both extremely bad faith and extremely racist here, I'm kinda shocked.
So do we all agree that destiny was just very wrong here?
Yup. Every time I see him on this channel, he's a smug asshole being wrong.
God when Vaush and Destiny started talking Rem felt like third wheel it was little bit funny.
Destiny is cheating on Rem with Vaush??? 😳
The odds of these three ending up in a debate are about the same as finding a horse on rollerskates attatched to a NASA rocket, yet here it is
eh not really, its happened before ua-cam.com/video/AjszEJBKWRs/v-deo.html
What a disappointing link
There was a time a while ago where these 3 and Hasan had a debate about whether or not Hasan was "morally lucky". Vaush wad known as Irishladdie at the time.
Watching this live was hilarious, it just felt like Rem and Destiny burst through Vaush's window and started fist-fighting with Vaush just shrugging his shoulders deciding to moderate the impromptu boxing match ringside.
I honestly didn't expect Rem to be this reasonable and correct here after how bad word he behaved the last time the two publicly spoke.
Also Destiny's takes are so fucking colonial, oh my fucking god.
Indigenous people shouldn't be "rolled into" our form of Liberal democracy, they should make that decision for themselves. They should be sovereign until they decide to no longer be, if ever. The should be given reparations since a lot of the natural resources they used to depend on, like wild buffalos, were destroyed or annexed by white settlers.
All arguments for "the greater good" destiny made are arguments that could be used 1:1 to justify expropriation of all private property, for example landlords. The material harm being done by homeless people existing in that way is far greater than some few ass holes not being able to earn money by existing.
i hate how destiny makes quasi pro democracy arguments (eg for the greater good) when it comes to displacing people (and not much material good gained, in that more pipelines is actually destructive) but is actually highly skeptical of democracy and keeps making "might makes right" arguments.
i forgot where here, but he basically makes the argument that "it might be the liberal in me, but i tend to side with the pro-democracy side" and takes it back immediately when vaush says "nothing wrong with democracy" when he realizes the implication that being pro-democracy means actually being left wing.
When did Destiny become Aynd Rand?
Canadian first nations individual here (not raised on reserve, grandparents were [for stakeholder context]) I agree with most of what Rem is saying, but he is really downplaying how bad the western Canada is doing in terms of jobs and material health, and how much people are suffering by the oil sands projects falling through because one tribe decided they didn't want to get involved. The utilitarian calculus we have to make here is very tight, because the wet'suwet'en nation (along with other reserves) will be compensated heavily for their participation in the project (helping the general population of the reserve which is in dire need). So while the autonomy over their land is an important factor, the other side also has a compelling case to be able to forcefully build the pipeline because it won't only benefit Canada as a whole, but the wet'suwet'en people themselves will fair better.
but isnt it (for the lack of a better term) unfair that the utlitarian outcome in question is strongly informed by non-first nation structural factors?
what makes income/ wealth more utilitarian than the cultures of quasi-genocided peoples? the wetsuweten would only "fare better" because they were given the "choice" between environmental/cultural preservation or capital, where the latter is unquestionably favored over (and divorced from) the former.
the other side's argument is only as compelling as it is the hegemonic default.
@@thesnorg1442 This assumes that any first nations peoples live as they used to (or would even want to go back to it). I know many first nations LARPers who do claim they would rather be completely cut off from society, but are completely reliant on the system and only marginally know how to hunt and trap.
The reality is even those born on the reserves are very much domesticated to modern western liberal democratic living, and money is unequivocally more important for the actual livelihoods of most first nations peoples compared to rituals and cultural artifacts, even if they are too stubborn to admit it. If this was legitimately a situation where the tribe was completely disconnected from society, and wanted to live in their pre-industrial ways without foreign interference on their lands, I would be much more sympathetic to cultural land rights. Its unfortunate, but the hegemonic default is apart of first nations life, and it is 100% because of western cultural imposition (which must be reconciled), but it has happened and there is no going back.
dude destiny is insanely cringe here. Like saying "I don't care about that' about the idea of people being wiped off the face of the earth. Literally just playing into the imperialist playbook.
Ngl I was more focused on Vaush playing Terraria than the actual debate
didnt miss a ton
HEHEHE I AM A SUPERSTAR CATGIRL Eh he didnt do much but personally for me I like to grind and watch people grind, don’t know why though.
So for my major in cultural anthropology we spend alot of time on native American tribes, history, and culture. It's like 3/4ths of my textbook.
Listening to destiny totally discard the actual facts of their culture and history to make a half baked might is right argument is legitimate nails on a chalkboard. Especially when he spends the majority of the time talking over people, and not actually addressing arguments while casting aspersions and bad faith arguments about his interlocutor. Everytime he said he was cringing I promise I was cringing 10 times more.
As a Canadian with an interest in native history and culture this video physically pained me. I wish I could have been in chat when this was happening
Thanks for uploading clips from streams Vaush.
Destiny's lack of knowledge of Canada's treatment of its' indigenous population really hurts him here. Vaush reminds Destiny that ( t=29:48 ), thanks to colonization and the many different facets of it, indigenous people have been victimized and put into a place where they are forced to rely on government assistance and handouts. Families were torn apart by the AIM initiative, children were emotionally and physically abused in both foster care and in residential schools (that indigenous people were forced to send their children to).
Nobody expected Destiny to have any good, reasonable takes in this "debate."
So....Destiny's entire argument on this particular issue boils down to giving pipeline workers a temporary construction job outweighs causing permanent cultural harm to indigenous people? I'm baffled why this wasn't brought up during the debate. It's almost as if there's no other way to provide jobs or temporary compensation from the Canadian government to offset temporary economic discomfort a few thousand construction workers. Also, he made the argument that not allowing the construction of the pipeline was causing material harm. That's a weird argument to make, since the material or economic wealth potentially gained from the project is purely theoretical at this point. That's a very scary road to go down...
Remthebathboi had a nice meal in this debate
Vaush was destiny'd in this rem
Milhouse Van houten same
As a Canadian I can say, holy shit, Destiny knows fuck all about this subject. I got triggered every time he opened his mouth and spoke with authority on something he knows nothing about.
Destiny? More like Manifest Destiny, AM I RIGHT?
I really want to know why the rest of the country is so entitled to resources on lands they don't control that *not* exploiting that resource "harms" them in some way. How does "not letting a foreign state appropriate even MORE of your land" equate to causing harm to Canadians? Telling people they should respect other people's rights is not harm, even if they feel like they would really benefit from stealing from them.
Granted, this is not just a Canadian issue, pretty much all formerly colonial countries do this, but it's still fucked up. It was fucked up when we did it to them when we first got here and it's still fucked up that we're STILL doing it now.
This is white privilege at its worst. Having the audacity to claim that being told to respect other people's rights to their own land and homes causes you "harm". For the privileged, being told they can't keep oppressing other people feels like oppression. But it's not. It's just ethics.
A BUNCH OF SQUATTERS WHAT I-
Destiny was Destiny - And therefore awful - In this debate
Hats off to Vaush for not completely losing his mind over destiny saying that a proud, ancient and sophisticated culture should "move into the 21st century"
If it were me the debate would have already been over
Destiny colonized this comment section with over used “Destiny got blank” meme
In this debate
Destiny justified the slaughter of Native Americans, the covert Central American coups of the 80s, and the Iraq Invasion in this debate.
Mr. E lol vaush justified the genocide of Jews in Israel and said “I don’t care about black culture” so it’s a little rich
In my opinion, the ecological effect of putting a pipeline somewhere is a good enough argument against doing it. It doesn't even matter that indigenous people live there. Get that clean energy
@@homelessengineer5498 I think that Canada should decide to either have the reservation be completely independent countries (as enclaves) or integrated into Canada and heavily compensated. I prefer to have the pipeline as part of a nationalized firm,. Also, what do you mean by political implications for subsidies for renewable? I think that Canada should subsidize nuclear energy and renewable energies while implementing carbon taxes. I think that the Green New Deal (even if implemented) has unrealistic goals (even under centralized planning). I agree that people need to decrease their investment in energy. Too bad that motion sensitive lighting is difficult to install inside houses.
Destiny became a literal child in this debate.
I love how Destiny Just made the argument for why Israel shouldn't exist.
Most days, I am a statist. An international socialist, really.
When I hear phrases like "you will be adequately compensated", though, something deep inside my soul bristles.
A dying breed.
I know Destiny's done takes like "If it takes you (long amount of time) to explain your position *leans into mic* it's probably bull" before. So it's a bit wild for him to go after Rem for not explaining everything thuroughly right away.
Also is somebody going to tell Destiny that "Irregardless" isn't a word?
no, irregardless is a word, it's just a malaproprism - it ought to be used in the same fashion as "with regard to" but it's often used to substitute "regardless".
my favorite malapropism comes from a friend: taking something out of the freezer to "de-thaw"