I dont think its praxis, but i watched it on his channel instead cuz u hadnt uploaded yet and i didnt catch the stream (plus i didnt think of checking the VODs)
@Sejez worst gotcha in history lol do u see the difference between a huge companies like amazon and apple and a guy that does streams on dlive with the only source of income comes from donations if vaush was big enough like 200k something subscribers and if his editors are actually employees that would be understandable but the people that edit for him are basically contractors should the guy that mows the lawn all over town that does contract work be part of a worker co ops company since he mows their lawn for money peak brainworms
Does anyone else remember when Destiny told Sargon that there is no such thing as personal responsibility when applied to a large group of disadvanged people? I sure do.
Daniel Bertrand Can you explain the specifics about how Marxists don’t understand economics? Also pretty sure Vaush just views Marx’s analyses and theories as valuable and relevant, but is not a Marxist himself. It’s unavoidable as a leftist or even modern capitalist that Marx hasn’t affected your economic beliefs
Both went out for a long run before the stream started all whilst listening to calming solo piano performances. Then they got and had sex whilst looking at pictures of cute kittens. Then they took a shower whilst listening to a calming audio track with chirping birds. In the last moments leading up to the stream they did breathing exercises, whilst watching a looping video of tiny tiny waves crushing soothingly against the shore whilst kittens played in the sand.
I lost a childhood friend to suicide last year. He was in his mid 40s, lived in the small town we grew up in, had trouble rebounding from the loss of a job he had for decades, and lost his girlfriend after he lost his job. Basically, the attitude that Destiny demonstrated towards his chat is probably the mirror of all my friend had going on in his head. He told himself if he couldn't find a job that he was a loser, if he couldn't make it then he might as well drive to his favorite place and put a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger. His sister found his body after he had been missing for a couple of weeks, going over in her head where he might have gone. He couldn't pull up stakes and leave his hometown. Death seemed easier to him, and having escaped the town we grew up in I know why he felt that way. Hearing Destiny justify his comments about poor people killing themselves adds another layer to why I think he is a despicable human being. He should be begging for forgiveness by normalizing the idea poor people should kill themselves and stop being surplus population. What he said made me cry thinking of my friend, because Destiny isn't the only person saying shit like that. It is a pervasive attitude in our country and the reason we have epidemic overdoses of hopeless people and suicide deaths from guns.
Destiny *is* a pretty despicable person. If you look at what he was like during his time as a pro SC2 player, he spewed all sorts of racist vitriol and personal attacks during games. I know that's a long time ago and people can change but every so often you see that same streak in him - he's just better at hiding it. I don't think he's changed much at all. Terribly sorry for your loss. I feel bad for your friend, his family, and you. That's a tragedy :(
Aiphiae yeah I never really understand why vaush likes him so much, destiny is such a man child who cries about everything and yet vaush still somehow thinks he’s better
Word is bond, tried 5 times, and realized I'm not good at life or death. Much respect to kafa for succeeding and having that kind of drive to not fear death and broke the chains of life by using death as a drive to maintain his goals or exit the game of endless cycle of life vs playing the rigged game after you realize the algorithm and discover the formula and still not attempted but participated in the actual world we perceive then most. Seems like he realized death was inevitable and based on the conclusion (tho it's not likely I think that theirs free will for even this) utilized his self-awareness, that is the worst side effect of our existence and nature's birth, of us, is for chaos and our death as the counterbalance, had enough and stopped the determined path early. Unless our world is one that as I say cycles of chaos and rebirth then Plato was partially right: there is a perfect reality...that of no cycle eternal space and no conscious to even perceive the cycle, darkness, death, pain, etc. Where you won't be fucked over to not even consenting on the existence and being a rotten shitted out meat bag capable of sensing leading to perceiving and formulating thoughts+actions= pointless absurdity as humans inevitably and 100% od on our personal tied nooses cause life and time will and always will get the drop on a mu fucka, skull fuck you, show you if you thought as a kid with trauma was bad to make you want to experience the gullible stupid mindless rupee drugging that stopped when you got older and keep going forever or until they fuck you to death while you try to kill yourself with a rusty machete. Life never not always maintains its skull fucking that is your physical essence. Don't take his death as a depressing one but a rejoiceful one in how they operated and reaching death through the best option through override vs time. Much respect to him and his Hermana I fucks with that kafa, he kept shit real and was driven and tried to get the word on lofe, realized its bullshit and rigged nothingness, and had the realness to get gritty and cheat the game into peace and balance.
This economy sucks. An economy that’s only good for rich people isn’t a good economy. Great so they can move somewhere for a minimum wage job after they borrowed money to move?
@@wind5039 You can always just file for chapter 11 Bankruptcy, General Motors filed for limited bankruptcy and emerged stronger but they still destroy cultural Icons like Holden.
Not to mention that the current minimum wage isn't enough to get by either. It's almost as if this economy was made to exploit the lower-class working man.
Problem with moving may not only be a money issue, but also the social safety net, After all you may loose the free childcare you had in your grandma and if you are so sick you cant leave your house so you can send a relative to buy groceries for you. in stronger welfare states this social safety nets mean less but my experience from Virginia USA so was you depending on the social safety net to 100% so move away may fuck you over totally so a worse job close to your friends and family is more important then a better payed work. Here in Sweden i can easy get cheap affordable childcare and can easier handle my self without the social safety net but with austerity do the increase the need of a social safety net.
Yeah the post capitalist socialist who's online career was made possible by worker co ops...whoops. Even his over consumption of food (hes a fat ass) is the byproduct of capitalism in a first world country while playing on his 3 thousand dollar computer brought to him by socialism? Shit I give up why do you morons watch this guy?
How the hell he thinks its normal to swap between neoliberal and socdem depending who he is talking to. From the way he argues he is more a neolib then anything close to a socdem. Thinking Pete is a good pick, no socdem would pick Pete over Bernie or warren. My guess is that he knows what the right model position is but financially his current position is better for him. That's why he hates debating lefty's, he known he is wrong and uses lots of the same debate tactics rightwingers use when he is advising from a left position.
I dont exactly want to defend Destiny, but that is pretty accurate and its his aversion to theory that makes him not understand the difference. Destiny is Neoliberal in his support of "free trade". Its the other halmark, austerity, that Destiny is against and on that he is socdem. His general pro market anti protectinist stance is why Vaush puts him more firmly into neolib, and I tend to agree and I think Destiny would too if he saw it that way.
You can talk about politics without having an ideology or label. Labels are stupid, all ideologies have some good ideas that you should be able to pick from and mix.. There is no "right side" or "right ideology" or "right solution", it all depends on which time and which country you're living in, and it depends on what needs to be done to start the particular revolution that's needed in your country, or sometimes just what needs to be done to balance things out when the politics are leaning too much towards one side and forgetting some group in society. This idea that right-wing ideology is just a conspiracy created by the rich to keep the rest of us down - is bullshit. Plenty of average working people vote for the right and are happy with the results, they aren't all stupid, and this is comming from a leftist myself. Again, it all depends on what time and situation you're living in. So just picking ONE ideology, especially one that leans very far too one side like communism, and then just getting all your answers from this one sided pre-thought out ideology that has the same solutions for everything - is really stupid. All these ideologies were made up centuries ago in totally different times with totally different problems and seeing things from just one perspective is never good, and Vaush certainly NEVER sees things from the perspective of the right or the center or even most of the left, he just sees everything from the theoretical lence of a communist. Destiny doesn't need to choose a label or ideology to talk politics, he can think for himself, you know, pick from differenet sides, focus on policy, he doesn't have to play a role or be a talking robot for one ideology with all the answers.
*argantosnl* I know it’s 5 months later, but do you unironically think that Destiny is a neoliberal? Like, by its definition? He only _swaps_ between those labels because political labels are treated like teams in online politics. So, when the right doesn’t like him, he’s called a socdem or socialist. When the left doesn’t like him, he’s called a neoliberal. These labels are distinctly not useful in online spaces because no one uses the academic definition and more so imposes their own definition that they’ve heard used colloquially. This is important because Destiny specifically rejects every tenet of neoliberalism except for globalized trade. He’s Keynesian in his monetary policy, he likes stricter regulation, he advocates for decreased private ownership of certain industries, he wants to increase taxes, he wants to increase federal spending, and a bunch of other things that are literally diametrically opposed to neoliberalism. So, when he’s given that label by laymen on the Internet, of course it’s used as a pejorative rather than being descriptive. And he advocates for Biden over Trump despite Trump being undeniably better for him financially, so I don’t understand what your point is about not supporting Bernie because he cares about maintaining his wealth
I love this. 2 people arguing over structures of a company, but both are uneducated, self-proclaimed experts. Vaush do you even know whats the difference between a publicly and privately owned company? And that actually you could by enough shares to have full control of BP or Newmont or any of those evil corporations, and change tgeir business model or operating practices.
@@miksausitis Maybe i am just unable to spot the sarcasm, but your comment feels a bit like: you have to guys talking about higher mathematics and u come to the scene asking: dO YoU eVeN kNoW wHaT iS tWo pLuS tWo?
for the bravest mobile memers 0:00 - Classism and bias against the unemployed 1:02:30 - Destiny's perceived bias against the Left 1:20:30 - Capitalism vs market socialism
One fallacy I'd like to point out in Destiny's reasoning is that his understanding of the human subject, our "species-being" so to speak, is one that is assumed to be universal, unchanging and pervasive throughout all sociopolitical systems. His fundamental conception of what it is to be human is always going to be biased in favor of capitalist ideology, because this conception itself is a byproduct of capitalist ideology. So long as this abstract of human nature remains at the center of his arguments, he will never be persuaded towards socialism. I will list the example in which this is most transparent: Destiny holds the view that "most people" would like to "do their job, go home, spend time with their friends and family." And presumably also engage in entertaining hobbies, social gatherings, etc, rather than engage in informing themselves and participating in the organization of their workplace through meetings, etc. For this reason, he concludes that worker co-operatives constitute a central flaw in theory, and would lead to no substantially impressive outcome than the traditional top-down model of capitalist relations. This is effectively an argument from human nature. I argue that this assumption of general human nature is only observable within a very recent, very narrowly defined, construct of the modern worker, and his understanding of what human nature is must be historically contextualized. Under capitalist realism, work and one's personal life, in addition to one's personal leisure, is defined strictly in antagonism against one another, both literally and metaphysically. On a material level, the workplace is often times physically removed from our material associations of home or belonging. Or our sense of community. Our sense of physical freedom. Work is a physical confines whose borders separate a space of automatic labor against a space of autonomous liberty--the former denotes a demanded level of professionalism, dress conduct, manners of speech or behavior, and alienating codes of deference, while the latter releases all these restrictions and returns a significant degree of individuality and authenticity to the worker's being. On a metaphysical level, we are taught to perceive the ontological space of one's "workplace" to be a hostile environment. One that is competitive, stressful to our mental and physical health, and that is always in antagonism against our interests. This is literally on display in the classical "8 hour model" of worker time divisions: 8 hours for work, 8 hours for leisure, 8 hours of sleep. In effect, capitalist realism ideologically compels us to internalize the concept and space of "work" as being antithetical to mutuality, community, social bonding, physical and mental autonomy, authenticity, and of course, fun--everything that is necessary to a fulfilling human existence. In addition to this, capitalist realism also categorizes human beings into class hierarchies, assigning prescriptive roles and expectations to members of distinct classes. If you are a worker, you are EXPECTED to dislike your job. You are expected to be tired and lazy on Mondays. Expected to want to leave the moment it's time to clock out. Expected to defer to management and bosses to make any decision outside of your area of assignment. Expected to be ignorant of the detailed business movements of your company and the general economy. And on a broader societal level, expected to be ignorant of obscure academic research relevant to your field of work, such as the mentioned studies about the effects of xyz on climate change. It is within the role of a construction worker, for example, to not know much science at all. You are expected to lift things, become tired, go home, watch television and sleep. Nothing else. Class expectation imposes a social role upon workers that is very much comparable to the ways in which a social order like Patriarchy will reinforce social expectations and behaviors from, say, the role of women. If the ideological borders of what "work" means and the expected social role of a worker were to be culturally redefined, then we can only expect a radically different attitude towards working and taking responsibility for the partial management of one's workplace. Destiny assumes that his conception of human nature is universal, regardless of political or economic systems. I argue that his conception of human nature is dominant only within currently existing ideological, cultural and economic models, and that these models can be changed: for example, if workplaces were to be less autocratic and exploitative as Vaush is suggesting, then we might be able to witness a more authentic and mutual relationship workers experience with the workplace, which in turn leads to a change in how "work" and "workplaces" are ontologically understood, which in turn leads to a broader willingness to engage in the responsibility of collective management.
Fantastic Response, thanks for taking the time to write this out. I agree with everything you have said here. I would suggest the reason for Destiny taking the view that he does is that he is basing his model of human subjectivity around the more reductionist, Behavioral views about human psychology prevalent among many Liberals these days. Why he's doing that may have more to do with his preference for certain forms of Epistemology, which favour empirical data and reproducibility over rationalist inference to best explanations. I am aware what I'm saying here appears highly reductive, but to delve into all the details would require too much typing :]
Pretty much, yep. Well done. Destiny limits himself severely with what he assumes to be the "default" state of things. It's more or less impossible to argue about changing the system with someone who assumes some/all of this system is immutable.
IAmNoOne I think political discourse has actually broken him to some extent, like how most people feel after arguing with a nazi. His whole job is to yell at people he considers dumb, while they yell back. That’s stressful
@@junipetta1595 Doesn't he stream for 16 hours a day or something? I'm not a psychologist but arguing with stupid people 16 hours a day probably isn't great for your mental health.
Vaush, if you're reading this, I think it's going to be extremely difficult to continue debating socialism against Destiny on his terms of the debate. He will always ask you to provide a hyper-specific example of how socialist organization will be able to effectively deal with certain issues within a broader framework of capitalist relations. He is blind to the ways in which capitalism itself is the root cause of these issues in several instances (such as your argument to how manufactured consent is a product of a billionaire class owning the media). He will always nitpick and nirvana fallacy the hell out of any theoretical solution you give within this framework, and then attack you because the example is speculation and not 100% verifiable empirical data. If he is to be tackled, he needs to be dismantled on his fundamental philosophical assumptions about human nature and the teleological goal of society in general. He needs to be shown that a classless, stateless society is at least a desirable philosophical goal, before being able to be moved with economic arguments such that the steps we take to reach such a goal is allowed to be flawed, since you would have demonstrated that no matter the weaknesses of the minutia of your arguments towards a transition, capitalism needs to be dismissed.
All I read was, get him to move away from the fact all we are talking about is fantastical and people will always do what's best for them. That way we will win all the time because rich people bad. Fuck off.
I know no one here needs this argument, but its hilarious because 90% of the world would actually benefit from redistributing the wealth of the top ten percent. Even if you dont believe capitalism is exploitation, that is just a numerical fact.
Destiny just repeated for hours the same statement he always make: Workers are dumb. You are going to make workers take decisions in rocket science? lol thats utopian blabla In the companies i know, the bosses don't know better than the workers most of the times. A lot of the times the workers (engineers, administrators, etc) are who actually run the company, and make all the big decisions and such, obviously, without the big rewards. He acts like when you say WORKERS you ONLY refer to extremely low skill worker or something like that. SKILLED WORKERS OF A COMPANY ARE WORKERS TOO. SO NO, DESTINY, SOCIALISM IS NOT LETTING THE JANITOR DETERMINE HOW TO LAUNCH A ROCKET TO SPACE. Its the possibility of the janitor to have something of a say in the company, for example so he can have more say in when to go to work, how to work, when to take vacations, to fire (colectively) a boss if that boss is completely stupid, etc. He always brings back things to the same simplified reality. "Oh you saying the janitor is going to make decisions in tesla, lol, only eLoN mUsK the IQ superior human being like me can make those decisions. Sorry bro socialism destroyed. You are not in the levels of my halls of intelligentsia" I call this, The Rick & Morty's logic. PS: Destiny should watch the documentary by Naomi Klein = The Take That SHOWS CLEAR CONCRETE EXAMPLES of already functioning co-operatives in Argentina in 2001
Thats not the debate i heard, it definitely sounded like he engaged Vaushs arguments pretty well
4 роки тому+2
Thing is, i do agree to some extent with him on democracy. Workplace democracy is simply logical, as workers, whether they like it or not, are simply directly involved into their field. However, i do agree that most people have no care or interest in broader policy, and maybe that level of politics should be kept to professionals. I mean one thing i certainly agree with him is that under a "4 years presidential term" system, whatever you may accomplish in those 4 years can be fucked by the 5th year because the dumb population elects some useless idiot, namely Trump or Boris.
I'm only half an hour in but my question for Destiny would be: what level of poverty do you think your advice applies to and what % of poor people is it? Because it's asinine to give overly general advice and then moan that people counter that it doesn't really apply to many.
isn't this an argumentative fallacy? If I say 2 things should be separate and you say draw a line where one thing becomes the other and I can't do it that doesn't mean that drawing a line somewhere and having false positives and true negatives won't yield results that we can improve later. He could give a number to draw that line, but it isn't necessary because if you say poor you will capture most of the group he is referring to, and if you say move then obviously they have enough for rent in some respects because they aren't homeless. There are likely people within the interval who the advice doesnt apply to, but there is no need to tune it to specific incomes unless we are writing policy
Did you watch the video eventually? Because its explained in decent detail. Its general advice and they acknowledge that it doesn't apply to EVERY poor person as it was never supposed to.
@@megafanflash yet by spending MOST of one's time explaining why poor individuals need better money management gives away bias/ideology. We can agree on the same set of facts. Our differences arise in the importance we give to them
@@matteo-ciaramitaro "but there is no need to tune it to specific incomes unless we are writing policy" so real world application instead of our biases defining what's important. In destiny's case, neoliberal and usually atomized in vacuum scenarios
I am really bummed out by how much animosity Destiny has towards Kyle Kulinsky. I have been a Secular Talk fan for 5 years and hearing him go so hard on Kyle bothers me a lot, and I don’t think it is deserved whatsoever
Oh i wouldnt worry, just wait till kyle claps back one of these days. Hes used to decimating neoliberal hacks on twitter lol. Man i want to see a vaush and kyle kulinsky discussion stream so badly. Ive been watching both daily for a good while now.
Sir Secular Kyle kulinski has made tweet after tweet accusing the DNC of rigging the election against Bernie without any evidence that’s why destiny goes after him
@Jon Favreu Except there is evidence, the Wikileaks as well as Donna Brazile confirmed, that the DNC was basically an arm of the Hillary campaign. Also if you look at the disaster in Iowa and don’t see anything, I think you’re the conspiracy theorist
Destiny also omits the reality that even if the unemployment rate is low, it doesn't mean you can get any job you want. With my years of professional white collar work, no restaurant would hire me. Systemic issues affect the poor, and he claims they don't care about it - all the votes for Bernie Sander's disagrees.
Destiny doesn't have a populist bone in his body. He hides behind the concept of "pure theory" and thought experiments. He puts everything *he* says in a vacuum and harshly nitpicks any assertion his opponents make. He argues from a place of bad faith most of the time now.
I also experienced this. I have been an adult education teacher and administrator for 13 years. It pays shit, no union, no full time work, no benefits, crappy schedules, extremely high emotional labor. I applied to 54 OTHER jobs in other fields between November and January from labor to retail and beyond and was hired by none of them. I'm stuck in this one part time teaching position and I'm exhausted and sad and trapped.
This debate was actually really fucking good. I think you did a good job of sort of forcing Destiny to confront a lot of bias he has against the left currently, and it was really refreshing and heart warming to see him engage with leftist arguments in a good faith manner, and I think you did a good job of defending your positions. I think the discussion was especially fruitful when you were talking about market socialism. Good job, comrade :)
Once it all switched over to the market socialism topic, the conversation went from "okay" to "legit". That's where I came in on the livestream, so I hadn't seen all the rhetoric conversation until today.
@@joeyj6808 Hard disagree - he's called out Destiny on bad faith BS on multiple occasions, and during their first conversation Vaush nailed Destiny down on strawmans and said he was acting in bad faith multiple times.
@@ignis6591 I see what youre saying. I guess I just have no patience for people like D. But I have a lot of respect for V and his debating skills (which I sadly lack)
The socialism vs capitalism debate was by far the best one I've seen either Vaush or Destiny do. It was nice to hear Vaush go up against someone who can make substantive criticisms of his arguments (e.g. in a system in which there are significant barriers to entry in starting worker co-ops, their relative successes *could* be explained by a form of self-selection). On the other hand, it was really great to see Destiny have to grapple with a lefty who was knowledgeable and could answer questions in a deeper-than-surface-level way. They even agreed on short term policy goals with respect to worker co-ops, namely finding ways to lower the barrier to entry to starting them (e.g. via subsidized loans) so that we could study them on a larger scale. I watched Destiny's video of this debate since it came out first, and after it ended he said that he enjoys discussions with Vaush and that he respected him which was very wholesome. Vaush/Destiny teamup arc?
Ghoulish Toad to be fair if you watch that stream the video was taken from Destiny did give several genuine pieces of advice that weren’t included in the video at all, hence why vaush thinks that destiny wasn’t actually giving advice
@@rprkjj8730 yeah i know he did but i just think telling people to literally Kill Themselves and label it advice.... is in very very poor taste to say the least
@@rprkjj8730 yeah that's something I've noticed too. It's the clipped nature of his new contents that helps make it more toxic imo. Its like bites sized fast food content if you get me
Destiny's ultimate point as I understand it, is that "poor people should move sometimes" which is about as useful advice as "just get a better job." It's meaningless words from a successful internet streamer that fell on hard times earlier in his life and feels contempt for others PERIOD. Destiny is not an egalitarian nor does he harbor respect for people in worse situations than the one he managed to crawl out of in the fledgling esports community. He doesn't respect other people because he doesn't need to. He's a classic libertarian that can't cast off that dirty coat in favor of helping everyone else.
No, I get what he's saying. "Sometimes, when you're poor, the only way to get out of being poor is to move somewhere with better economic prospects." Then, Destiny, when being told how hard it could be to move for a lot of poor people, said "Well then you're shit out of luck and you should just give up", his logic being that if you must move but you are unable to move, there is nothing that you can do. I think he phrased it very irresponsibly, but I see the logic behind it.
Patrick McHugh this just isn’t true. He advocates for social programs to help the poor all the time, even thinks people like him should be paying much more in taxes. I’m sure you would agree there is something the average poor person could do to better themselves financially. Of course we should change the system to help them and prevent poverty, but what do you suggest these people do until then? There are things you can do (like moving and other examples Destiny gave) to potentially better your situation.
Destiny makes a lot of arguments based on pure nihilism. It's pretty obvious that even an imperfect libertarian socialist state would be a SIGNIFICANT improvement from Capitalism. Destiny is cynical for the sake of being cynical and merely tried to find every hole in any socialist model while overlooking the million issues with capitalism
I can't blame him for being nihilistic or cynical, but I can blame him for not thinking some of the left ideas are definitely worth trying instead of sticking with this existentially distressing landscape we have right now.
I had a similar mindset. When Vaush acknowledged the imperfections socialism can have that literally is the single thing that convinced me by forcing me to confront my cynicism
@@onimaxblade8988 Destiny needs to read more Marx, Engeles, and some anarchist philosophy like Peter Kropotkin, Emma goldman, Mikail Bakuinin, Rosa Luxembourg, and especially Noam Chomsky. Destiny seems to have only read mainstream liberal enlightenment philosophy.
Something I don't understand about his ardent defense of the status quo is that he believes a more flat hierarchical system will still have the same problems as this current one. While on its face that's a fair claim, it doesn't stand up when you ask "Which one is more likely to be corrupted?" With power (or wealth) more evenly distributed, it'll make it way more difficult to get the outcomes we're at right now. Instead of a multi-billionaire just buying elections or influence in elections, a flatter system of wealth will mean people have to have the support of the populace to gain power (i.e Bernie Sanders). Just because a different system can have the same outcome, doesn't mean you shouldn't change it. Hell if you have your seatbelt on, there's nothing stopping you from still dying in a wreck but it obviously decreases those chances so I'm sure he would agree with that.
49:20 lol Destiny... Right wingers don't know what a SocDem is... Literally never heard a good faith right winger in my life call people on the left anything other than communist Venezuelans... Try harder to pivot next time, Density... Damn...
@DYNAMIC I mean, I've never personally seen a right-winger online understand the different between socdem and full on Soviet Communism. I'm not being a troll, I'm just adding my own anecdotal evidence.
@@KickinAss1000 thinkprogress.org/a-history-of-republicans-calling-democrats-socialists-777bcd2b7a6d/ don't know if this would help you see where they're coming from.
@@KickinAss1000 Dem Soc and Soc Dem being different is very confusing, if that is true. Besides that... I mean, we're allowed to talk anecdotally, and I think it is honest to say a lot of people really don't know what Socialism means. I didn't for the majority of my life, especially with all the misinformation that is spread, so I don't exactly blame people for not understanding, but a lot of people just really don't know, from what I see time and time again.
@DYNAMIC I don't think socdem means socialism, I think it means capitalism with a larger safety net and more regulation. I might be wrong on that-I'm not exactly a poli-sci major-but that's my understanding. And the person commenting above wasn't making a point in an offical debate format, it was just a UA-cam comment. They were just making a point based off their personal experience. It's been their experience, and mine, that they have NEVER seen a right-winger honestly engage with the concept of social democracy-instead, they just go, "OH YEAH, WELL VENEZUELA, CHECKMATE". I mean, I'd like to do a poll on that. But I doubt something that specific has a Gallup. So for now, it's just anecdotes. And thanks for assuming good faith.
@@KickinAss1000 i also have never once seen any right winger in history get anything really correct on well. anything really, regarding socialism, social democracy, communism, or even capitalism.
Lean Mantern, Destiny shit talked OKBloomer and then said, "your gonna delete this vod, right? So I can get sponsored by him". It was one of the funniest things hes said in a while.
@@JohnDoe-ee2yk unsubscribed as well friend, a sad day too...I was with Destiny back in his early 100k subscriber days man! Hopefully, Vaush can lead him down a redemption arc.
It’s crazy to me that destiny doesn’t just say “you’re right that was a stupid tangent and quite classist”, like why does he have to have it both ways that he was right originally but also there are capital barriers that trap workers in place? He was wrong factually as well as being totally chauvinistic towards workers in his original rant.
To be fair, Vaush went way too hard on his 'bomb Israel' statement as well. Anyone with half a brain stem understands that when someone says that we should bomb Israel people are going to assume you're an anti-semitic. Especially when you're arguing about being responsible as a public figure, he should have conceded that he fucked up and understands that it could easily be viewed as an anti-semitic statement.
Good job man just watched the debate you outclassed stefan on every point and were brilliant. He just couldn't handle you. Your points were clear and direct while he came across as confused.Good job just subscribed, greetings from Kenya.We still suffer from the effects of colonialism to this day so it is very real for us.
Wtf?! If talking over your opppnent, calling him names, shouting at him, and then running away is "outclassing" them, you'd have a point. However, you don't have a point. Sorry.
"Your solution doesn't solve all the problems therefore I will disregard the improvements it does bring" Seems to be Destiny's stance during the whole coop section
Destiny is so paranoid about being called mean names by people on the internet that he immediately assumes any critique (even by, y'know... fans of his?) is an insult somehow. The exchange around 45(?) minutes in was basically just that. It seems like the only thing he's actually concerned about.
Destiny has so much pent up resentment against his leftist ex-friend. The carcinogenic residues from the gas lighting that went on during their breakups is why Destiny is now riddled with the cancerous opinions he expressed in this debate. The man is literally going off in a histrionic rant that is nothing but big oil apologia for climate change. Destiny is worse than a global warming denier, he is an oligarchy denier. .
He'd never do that he is such a pussy, when Richard Wolff challenged him he declined, cuz he knows that not only are the lefties the ones with the moral high ground but also with the logical economic system
@@ChelseaHicSalta yeah that debate and the one with noncompete were really good, they both humiliated destiny and proved that destiny doesn't know shit about politics
I'm glad Destiny got a little more good faith towards the end but he really really needs to understand that bringing up Israel every time Vaush tries to criticize him is whataboutism. He's not engaging with Vaush's points at all and just deflects everything back at Vaush because "he also said something bad". I don't really know much about Destiny but based on what I've heard about him... he must've understood this fallacy at one point and argued against other people who used it right?
I think a big issue with this is that every time destiny tried to turn the critique back on vaush, vaush didn’t make it clear enough that he fully agrees the incidents are analogous AND ACKNOWLEDGES THAT HE FUCKED UP. That point was discussed, but I don’t think vaush hit enough on the fact that destiny was trying to avoid disavowing content by bringing up content vaush was very willing to disavow.
I don't think that bringing up Israel was necessarily a whataboutism, not in the sense of a fallacy, as he wanted to show an inconsistency in an argument. What does bother me though is that Vaush did disavow what he said, he did say that he was irresponsible in his framing about Israel, so there just isn't any inconsistency. The fixation on the "fuck Israel" was weird since it's a far cry from the other two examples, and since Vaush did specifically put it into context. But I understand Destiny's frustration, the last few months were full of dishonest attacks when it came to his positions and framing, and I think he low-key acknowledged that in this debate. There's also no hard feelings towards Vaush, there were with all the other lefties (like Hasan), so I think Destiny understood his blunder.
Joel Costa, Yeah "fuck Isreal" Isn't at all semantically clear. It was kind of cheap but Destiny was not wrong that nazis could say that too. But Vaush did argue strongly for having to give qualifiers so its not that he intended that to stand alone. It just wasnt a real strong rhetorical statement.
He does understand that. Most apes understand that. I am not even talking about the smart signing apes, even the dumb animal testing apes understand that shit. It is simply bad faith.
Yeah I was REALLY worried about the March debate after the shouting match, but the way this one ended made me feel like we're going to see a really fun conversation next month.
Destiny's argument against the viability of worker democracy is bunk. He is either being reductionist or invokes a nirvana fallacy when it comes to the "verticality growing with the coop size". While this is principle is generally true, as Vaush said numerous times, the worst case is still better than the private case in terms of worker representation. Think of every democratic nation state: They might include many millions of citizens, so obviously there is a significant degree of verticality in its political system - that is representative democracy - yet we would categorically differentiate it from literal autocracies and prefer them over the latter, no matter how many flaws there are; bc at least structurally there is the pretext of representation and accountability.
@@Khalkara Yeah, it is called the nirvana fallacy. The Left's burden is not to demonstrate that socialism is literally flawless but merely that it is generally preferable relative to capitalism. Notice that Destiny never points out any exclusive issue with coops that is not also known to apply to private firms to _at least_ the same extent.
The debate was a waste of time for both parties from my point of view. It's hard to tell how honest Destiny is anymore because you can't tell if he's being hyperbolic or genuine. We know Destiny's positions in the past but i can't take his word for it anymore with his contempt for leftist. He does a lot of blanket statements or strawmen of leftist that are clearly uncharitable, and it's done purposely. Nothing in this conversation moved either party from what they believe nor did it move the audience. It's obvious that Destiny's main take away from this is that it's the same socialist utopian conversation. I'm finding these debates with Destiny to be the most boring and frustrating of any conversation. I actually liked the debate with Stefan Molyneux more than the debate with Destiny.
He is more concerned with not falling into a gotchya. He doubles down too much. He would argue that all children should be molested just to argue lowering the age of consent or some shit. Remember not caring about animals just to checkmate a vegan?
Man, his first ever stream on DLive started with the 20 minute Destiny screaming shitshow and had 12K viewers. If 2020 isn't the year of the Vaush, nothing will be.
I like how destiny says he disavowed the poor person hyperbole and vaush is like oh okay great then .3 seconds later he brings it up again to attack destiny
@@boyo-shook3891 And Vaush never actually disavowed the Israel comments, he actually reinforced it multiple times saying he just didn't mean the Israeli population, he meant the country itself. They both did the same thing and Destiny kept bringing it up to show Vaush saying almost the exact same things to clarify as he was. Not sure how this is hard to understand.
Mr. Limekiller, the issue is that Vaush claimed he actually had a problem what Destiny said. Everyone knows that Destiny didn't actually take offense at Vaushs comment so he was being bad faith by bringing it up and just using "whataboutism". Vaush tried to call him out on it by incorrectly saying he was "pivoting", which actually means trying to change the subject.
@@aralornwolf3140 So being a billionaire is the same as being a minority? You can always give away money or not exploit your labor. I can't give away my skin tone...nice false equivalent.
You can't say you hate rhetoric, then make your entire career on debate. This is the same contradiction found in Plato. Plato was MASSIVELY against rhetoric, yet he used it all the time.
I think the point is to say that both rhetoric and policy are the means, not the end. And stopping with more foundational rhetoric instead of extrapolating that rhetoric to policy changes nothing. Vaush even says his intent was to create a political movement, which is strange if he doesn't acknowledge policy is the middle ground between rhetoric and its end. I think Vaush may be saying sound rhetoric allows for effective policy choices across time, and Destiny is saying policy is more effective at reaching an end; I think that's the most charitable reading I can give of their positions.
@@zekiel777 The problem is that rhetoric is everywhere. Even policy is rhetoric because passing a law implies a certain persuasion that benefits one group and harms another. Like, Destiny can hate rhetoric all he wants, but that'll do him about as good as hating Oxygen.
Yeah pretty much. I know this might be a bit of an uncharitable take, but it feels like he doesn't want to be held accountable to the specifics of things he says, so long as his core idea is fine. Trouble is, as Vaush said, that's not how the game works.
It's okay to contradict yourself SOMETIMES. Humans aren't unchanging logic machines. It's possible to believe in things that don't align or even clash. Growth comes from overcoming paradoxes/ percieved-paradoxes like this.
You can believe people have agency and not free will. Free will and agency are different. You can also believe people should be treated as if they have agency and not believe they actually do have it.
@@thatyoutubechannel9953 Nah, not really. Mot if you're a utilitarian like Destiny claims to be. What's the utility in treating people like they have free will if they don't?
@@badgaming921 The ONLY reason to treat people as though they have free will is utility. It's not useful to say people have no free will because it makes no difference. Free will is an illusion of cause and effect, but it makes no practical difference.
Destiny: “Oh it almost sounds like Vaush saying I’m not antisemitic I did a video on Israel one time.” Yeah Destiny the thing is that saying you hate the state of Israel, who is supported mostly by evangelical Christians and engages in fascistic etho-nationalist tendencies and who is also led by a Holocaust revisionist, isn’t nowhere near the same thing as saying you hate Jewish people, otherwise there wouldn’t be Jewish people who hate the state of Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries.
Ultron-5 Destiny fans on his video keep spamming that hating a state ie Israel is no different to hating the Jews. It’s depressing and bad faith as I’m convinced most of them can’t be that stupid.
Sargon’s Black Grandfather exactly, by saying that hating the state of Israel is the same as hating Jewish people they’re literally making the same argument that evangelical fanatic Dennis Prager made in a video awhile back.
Sargon’s Black Grandfather I wonder what destiny fans would think of people saying “fuck America?” Does that make those who say it racist against almost all races since a plethora of races live in the US in significant numbers.
Daniel Vincent no he isn’t he might be ethnically but from all of his stances and talking points he’s most definitely an evangelical christian just look at all of his videos on PragerU. PragerU has even come out and confirmed it himself that he’s of the Christian faith, not Judaism.
The right will swallow Hasan next. Then Vaush. Till all your left with is Hunter Avallone. (I don’t really know or care about their positions it’s just the scenario in my head)
For some reason it has to be the most stupid, immature section of his fanbase that keeps showing up here. They all have to speak in quips and jabs for some reason.
@@andrescrespo2514 Not really. America doesn't have a typical right-wing modality, as Europe does. It's just purely "capitalistic" and "religious", either/or, or both. Most right-wing ideology has to do with groups, races and nation to be precise. In America, all this gets conflated with socialism itself ["national socialism is leftism"]. American's "right-wing" is immensely confused. The left in America is less confused, but they are also in the forefront of what could be called a "developing historical precedent" towards their own Americanized Production Society.
My favorite part is when the guy who emphasized that he is a hardcore rigid determinist said he was worried about other people taking away people’s agency. x’D
The idea that climate change is a case in point of why we shouldn’t have democracy really flips the actual circumstances we can see around us on their heads. In reality, most people seem to understand that we need to address climate change, and the ones who don’t are the ones who have been most indoctrinated through propaganda mostly financed by billionaires & the fossil fuel industry. It is because of the *lack* of democracy (through all kinds of the mechanisms built into our electoral system which were designed specifically & explicitly to prevent “an excess of democracy” that they have no avenue to have done anything serious about it by now. To take the example Destiny gave- why don’t people go out and vote for a Green candidate? Well, I don’t think the reason is because people are just too stupid or lacking in understanding that climate change matters to see that they should support a candidate who has plans. The issue is that in our two-party, privately financed system, you are strongly disincentivized to vote outside of the two-party binary- people are led to believe (partly because it’s true) that if you vote for the Green Party, you are essentially handing it to the Republican- the one least likely to do anything about climate change. And what do you know- this election we finally have one candidate who has overcome many of the anti-democratic impediments of our system & built a movement & candidacy based on mass support of millions, who is offering a serious Green New Deal proposal... And given that one opportunity, despite a shitstorm or media propaganda against him, he has soundly won the popular vote in the first 3 caucuses (something unprecedented within either party in competitive primaries). I think this is a clear reflection of the will to address climate change (and again, that’s within a status quo which *does* disproportionally deny good education to the poor/working majority, which does inundate them with propaganda from wealthy interests determined to convince us climate change isn’t happening or isn’t influenced by human-produced emissions)... The thing is, we already have the alternative to a democracy- a system in which the political system is by and large controlled by a “specialized class,” “the responsible men-“ that’s what liberals designed our system to be, in James Madison’s words at the Constitutional Convention, in order to form a system of government which “protects the minority of the opulent against the majority.” The reason capitalist elites have always given for opposing democracy, at their most candid (speaking amongst each other rather than rhetorically to the public), from the days of Madison to Edward Bernays to Walter Lippman to the Trilateral Commission, was not about genuine concerns that they wouldn’t be up to the task of voting. It was for class reasons: they understood that in a democracy, working people have political power (by virtue of being the majority), and that- in exactly the same way that in our current system, capitalists use their dominance in the political system to serve their own interests- in a democracy, workers would use their political power to serve their interests (the interests of the majority), which ultimately means undermining their domination at the hands of the ruling class for their own profit at the expense of the workers. I mean, clearly, it is because the major donors of both parties (who are naturally ultra-wealthy people, many major shareholders or board members at large corporations) have a short-term financial stake in continuing to extract fossil fuels. This is overwhelmingly obvious at this point. It is the most broad-based, labor-backed, popular political candidates, going against their political hegemony, who are the *only* ones pushing for any action to address climate change. The fact that that small minority has so much influence over our politics is the biggest impediment keeping them from having the sway to actually get it done, & they have that influence because they are financed (in our privately funded electoral system) by the plutocrats who profit from the oil/coal/gas industries. It doesn’t matter if it’s neoliberal technocrats like the Clinton or Obama administration (who approved tons of new drilling/fracking/coal mining) or the far-right- politicians who are financed by these capital interests, whose career depends on serving them & upholding their class power, have always & will always continue to push us towards the precipice of climate disaster, because that is the institutional inertia of the system they’re upholding, driven by the profit motive. I’ll just close by saying: it’s a very dangerous thing to believe your political worldview is non-ideological, or transcends ideology. Your ideology can have a critique of ideology, but you cannot have a political worldview & not have an ideology. Opposition to democracy, opposition to socialism, advocacy of capitalism, & everything else that comes with this kind of liberal technocratic view is ideological- and likewise, when post-leftists talk about the problems with ideology, they are still taking an ideological position. Everyone carries axiomatic assumptions. Everyone who engages with political/social issues has some kind of values, some kind of epistemological ideas about how to rightly derive their positions, ideas about what politics are right or wrong, & this all shapes an ideology. Now, they may not be *dogmatic* with regard to one or another specific ideology... And I think it’s good not to be. But nonetheless, their worldview is still bound by the same baggage associated with being ideological that anyone else’s is, and it’s only self-deception to convince themselves that they’re immune. In fact, it’s self-defeating- they believe they’re immune because they’re aware of the negatives of ideology, but by believing their worldview isn’t ideological they fail to apply that critique to their own ideology. This is a big danger with technocracy, & with capitalist ideologies which try to convince people they’re just empirical and scientific when they are not. It would be literally impossible to have a political/economic/social worldview & be free of the bounds of ideology, & it’s best to come to terms with that and analyze your own views on the basis of that understanding.
Destiny has turned so bad faith on some things, holy shit this is sad. Also, his hatred for Kyle ever since he got spanked by him on economics is funny. Surely he understands the gig job economy?
20:15 look, I was following what Destiny was trying to say until he pulled that one out, I'm really sorry but he's older than me and Vaush so I know he was alive when Matthew Shepard was killed. You don't think there are consequences for queer people coming out? You don't think those consequences can be physical or sometimes life-threatening? Holy shit man, I was following the rest of this discussion but that casual comment was fucking offensive.
hey i know this is an old comment to an old video but i don’t think that’s what destiny was trying to say. I think he was trying to say that the consequences of NOT coming out isn’t as dire as losing your property from not having a job and stuff. I understand vaush’s rebuttal to that but what i don’t understand is why vaush’s character isn’t supposed to be questioned by his hyperbolic statement but destiny’s is. Also your pfp is pretty.
@@demonkingkongo0524 "experience teaches us that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other." - Frederick Douglass, actual former chattel slave
Why would the person that makes widgets be voting for something small like changes in the software that the marketing department uses?? It can still be co-operatively owned by every employee while having separate divisions and job positions that make decisions and have enough autonomy to do their work. Destiny often has this idea that every single person would need to be able to fill every single job and roll under socialism or worker co-ops. He also seems to believe that nothing would ever be decided on effectively, because every decision would have to be voted for by every single person. You could easily have pamphlets on the issues for members of the co-op to vote on that explain the decisions that need to be made at the company. People aren't as fucking stupid as Destiny makes them out to be. He said someone at the bottom of the company doesn't want to have to make the decisions at the top of the company, he just wants to go home and party with Karen?? The type of person Destiny was describing has likely never been given the opportunity to make any sort of decisions at his workplace. How could you say he doesn't want to or wouldn't be intelligent enough to, if they have never been given the opportunity? Also, just because he'd rather go home and party with Karen or whatever doesn't mean he can't make decisions in his workplace. I really don't get the point of what Destiny said. It would be a part of the expectations for his job at the workplace to vote on things with the other workers/owners of the co-op. Workers would be a lot more incentivized to give a shit about the decision making at their work if they actually owned a piece of where they labor for 8 hours a day, instead of working mindlessly and taking orders to make someone else wealthy. Anyone would rather just party and have fun with family or friends or whatever than think about their work, especially under the circumstances of most workplaces, but that's not always what you get to do.
Yeah, like coops exist in real life, and while not all are organized equally, it's not like they all fall apart into chaos or anything. It turns out people are smarter than to have literally every decision, no matter how technical, be made by literally everyone and are able to come to an understanding of who generally handles what department of work while still respecting other workers outside of there department or division or whatever. The idea that this is some weird utopian fantasy is ludicrous, as we have existing examples (even entire countries, like Yugoslavia, which while authoritarian in other aspects is still a very successful example of such an economy working and only really collapsed due to corruption and ethnic tension.)
In my country (Argentina) there are A LOT of co-ops. None of them are like Destiny imagine them to be. We have one very famous (check Naomi Klein "The Take") called FaSinPat = Fabrica Sin Patrones (Factory without landlords) that even makes decisions in assembly without bosses. Destiny needs to AT LEAST watch that documentary and stop talking in hypothetical scenarios, and simplified reality, like if co-ops didn't exist already in the real world or whatever And he has a TREMENDOUS ego, he thinks everyone is stupider than him. And he is voting for Buttigieg? Yeah thats some high IQ right there. He has the Rick and Morty Fan attitude but into politics.
Joel Nohs you’re a fucking idiot for that comment. Widget is a common placeholder for thing made in general. Holy fucking shit how can you be that dumb
So I became a huge fan over the last week and finally decided to hit the subscribe button and even turn on notifications bc I just really appreciate your ability to argue. I struggle to argue bc I have never been good at reading articles or dialing back my emotions (though I believe emotions are vital to our humanity and can play a part in arguments), so your channel has been really nice to find to better help me see the stances I have actualized. I really like your content and I hope to get a chance to catch all the way up on your content
I wish vaush challanged Destiny more when he said " Most people aren't that interested in politics and they wouldn't engage in a more democratic system and instead opt to stay home. " while historically we can see when people know their engagemant in the political process has an effect on policy they are much more likely to show interest in politics. The earliest example of this being ancient Athens.
Exactly. Plus people are definitely going to take more of an interest in politics when they aren't being crushed by the drudgery of wage slavery. My fiance hates his job at Starbucks, it just sucks the joy out of his life. But if he was better paid and actually had a voice within the company, he'd be happier and actually have the mental energy to be able to more effectively participate in democracy. Right now, he comes home so exhausted he falls asleep on the couch before he can even finished getting changed out of his uniform. Of course he's not going to be all that engaged in politics!
Destiny: "i dont believe in communism because we see every day how badly people behave" no shit under capitalism people behave badly, that's why we want to change the incentive structures away from capitalism
I default listen to videos on 2x speed. I had to work up from 1.5x when I got into Destiny and Vaush but they really aren't any worse than Crash Course or Yahtzee.
He said he'd upload it tomorrow but you can also just catch it with the VOD on vaush's dlive channel ( dlive.tv/p/therealvaush+GoanZCQWR ). If you don't trust my link, his user is "TheREALVaush" and the right video is under "Replays" and is the 5 hour and 44 min long vid just titled "Debating with Destiny" Warning though, Dlive kinda runs like crap
I used to watch Destiny a lot, because he seemed reasonable for the most part (even if I didn't agree with everything he said sometimes). What made him interesting was that he was willing to attack both sides left or right, whether it was for bad takes, or for the sake of curiosity and learning about other peoples' views, etc. However, I do agree with Vaush that lately, he's been very anti-left Bias (particularly towards Bernie) and less charitable. Which is why he's been unwatchable now... it's like he's turned off his brain, just like all the establishment media bias (they even start sounding alike). For example: He was so sure Bernie was going to lose and believed he had very little minority support, etc. just through reading headlines and eating up media pundit talking points and articles without any critical thinking.... He made fun of Bernie supporters being delusional about his possibility of winning, instead of actually listening to how it could be likely (so confident, that he was willing to make a huge bet against Hasan that Bernie wouldn't win). Well, Bernie did end up winning majority votes in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada (also dominating in minority support). And even when there were numerous anti-Bernie media coverage, he wasn't charitable enough to even investigate whether it was true or not... but just made a quick judgment that it was untrue. Here's a funny clip showing how Bernie is covered in the media: ua-cam.com/video/Zjj7VJpqy1w/v-deo.html -after him constantly winning, I guess it was getting harder for msm to ignore him and hide their displeasure. Overall, it's made me question his judgment, because it's almost like he's let his ego get in the way of his thinking.. causing him to have some very bad predictions/takes.
Scott Garriott I’m not sure, because ever since he started sounding like braindead establishment media, I’ve been too turned off to watch his content anymore. If anyone else knows, please comment.
@ But he's not a libertarian, right? He's a social democrat, he has support for more governmental regulation of the market economy and he supports a welfare state, that's like the opposite of a libertarian.
@ I get confused sometimes because all these concepts are relatively new to me, and I'm more of a passerby viewer of this content than a an active participant. So I hear Destiny talk about socialist democrat and I've heard Bernie referred to as democratic socialist, is there any difference between the two? Are they just synonyms?
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@@SHADOWxSN1PER "Democratic socialism is also distinguished from Third Way social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism whereas social democratic supporters of the Third Way were more concerned about challenging the New Right to win social democracy back to power." This is a very concise explanation basically, but they are pretty close
Its obvious coops are a better idea. The fact Destiny cannot wrap his mind around it, is frankly astonishing. Its really like he just refuses to break from this paradigm regardless.
Wow. If Destiny actually starts behaving more like this with lefties again, I *might* re-subscribe. Thank you Vaush, and well done! I mean, with Destiny actually listening, questioning, and forming arguments - he might actually convince some ppl....OR even better, be moved further "left" on some issues.
^^ and while I gave Destiny credit- jesus effin christ, he doesn't believe that fossil fuel corporations are primarily responsible for the current state of global warming???
@@jstevinik3261 I honestly didn't want to unsub from Destiny, but felt like it was the only "power" I had to voice my disgust to his extremely unhinged and uncharitable anti-Kyle Kulinski video. Was the last straw for me, and apparently he's gotten worse
@@joerichmar6041 I think that I may have unsubscribed for his debate against Non-Compete. I still check out his video and listen to his debates against rightists. Aside from disliking video as well? Also, which anti-kyle video? This is testament to Destiny's position on him. Even if I grant him that Kyle is conspiratorial, it is annoying that Destiny lumps him with anti-capitalists. Personally, my main problem with Kyle is that he is too repetitive. I do not mind a conversation.
Destiny is now falling back to the libertarian escape hatch of taking macro problems and applying them on an individual basis, it’s disingenuous, pedantic and reductive. This debate speaks to the overall laziness of Destiny, he doesn’t want to qualify his statements, wants to say s#!tty things and not be called out for it since “my fans know what I mean”. This is a child’s mindset
Mr. BigMeatyClaws Not going to go through the whole video looking for examples, but off the top of my head at one point he uses "inextricable" to mean something like "inevitable" when it actually means "unable to be extracted." He also uses "take umbrage" throughout to mean "disagree," when it actually means something closer to "take offense."
"I don't want to have to qualify my statement every single time." Vaush is here to remind you that you must for some things. That's not because we think YOU are a bad actor, it's because people who don't know you will think you're a bad actor. That's life, Destiny. THAT'S LIFE. IF THIS IS TOO HARD FOR YOU, YOU SHOULD JUST END IT NOW.
He can’t logistically bring up the anti Semitic statement earnestly because he refuses to disavow his classist statement. Bringing up that Vaush said something anti Semitic could only be a valid argument if Vaush DIDNT concede that the statement was bad.
One of the greatest political talks I've heard in a long time! Vaush you did an outstanding impeccable job and I'm so stoked for you. Much praise, because I nor many people could do what you just did
Stefan Molymeme debate gets uploaded tomorrow morning!
Huh? damn bro goteem
You cant tease me like this
I dont think its praxis, but i watched it on his channel instead cuz u hadnt uploaded yet and i didnt catch the stream (plus i didnt think of checking the VODs)
@Sejez worst gotcha in history lol do u see the difference between a huge companies like amazon and apple and a guy that does streams on dlive with the only source of income comes from donations if vaush was big enough like 200k something subscribers and if his editors are actually employees that would be understandable but the people that edit for him are basically contractors should the guy that mows the lawn all over town that does contract work be part of a worker co ops company since he mows their lawn for money peak brainworms
I’m ready to loose brain cells
Does anyone else remember when Destiny told Sargon that there is no such thing as personal responsibility when applied to a large group of disadvanged people? I sure do.
ah the good old days
:(
Damn I do too. Strict father mentality. Projected pain. Wonder what happened to destiny on the personal level.
Pepperigde Farms remembers...
That Destiny is long gone
I’m ten minutes into this and nobody’s shouting yet, wtf is going on
It’s the calm before the storm monkaS
I mean they used to be friends before destiny cancelled him
@@danielbertrand6675 I'm not sure what debate you watched but I thought they were pretty evenly matched and Destiny was awful to Vaush the first time.
Daniel Bertrand Can you explain the specifics about how Marxists don’t understand economics? Also pretty sure Vaush just views Marx’s analyses and theories as valuable and relevant, but is not a Marxist himself. It’s unavoidable as a leftist or even modern capitalist that Marx hasn’t affected your economic beliefs
Both went out for a long run before the stream started all whilst listening to calming solo piano performances. Then they got and had sex whilst looking at pictures of cute kittens. Then they took a shower whilst listening to a calming audio track with chirping birds. In the last moments leading up to the stream they did breathing exercises, whilst watching a looping video of tiny tiny waves crushing soothingly against the shore whilst kittens played in the sand.
I lost a childhood friend to suicide last year. He was in his mid 40s, lived in the small town we grew up in, had trouble rebounding from the loss of a job he had for decades, and lost his girlfriend after he lost his job. Basically, the attitude that Destiny demonstrated towards his chat is probably the mirror of all my friend had going on in his head. He told himself if he couldn't find a job that he was a loser, if he couldn't make it then he might as well drive to his favorite place and put a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger. His sister found his body after he had been missing for a couple of weeks, going over in her head where he might have gone. He couldn't pull up stakes and leave his hometown. Death seemed easier to him, and having escaped the town we grew up in I know why he felt that way. Hearing Destiny justify his comments about poor people killing themselves adds another layer to why I think he is a despicable human being. He should be begging for forgiveness by normalizing the idea poor people should kill themselves and stop being surplus population. What he said made me cry thinking of my friend, because Destiny isn't the only person saying shit like that. It is a pervasive attitude in our country and the reason we have epidemic overdoses of hopeless people and suicide deaths from guns.
Sorry about your friend 😔
Destiny is an absolute asshole for even joking about things like that.
Why he lose job?
Destiny *is* a pretty despicable person. If you look at what he was like during his time as a pro SC2 player, he spewed all sorts of racist vitriol and personal attacks during games. I know that's a long time ago and people can change but every so often you see that same streak in him - he's just better at hiding it. I don't think he's changed much at all.
Terribly sorry for your loss. I feel bad for your friend, his family, and you. That's a tragedy :(
Aiphiae yeah I never really understand why vaush likes him so much, destiny is such a man child who cries about everything and yet vaush still somehow thinks he’s better
Word is bond, tried 5 times, and realized I'm not good at life or death. Much respect to kafa for succeeding and having that kind of drive to not fear death and broke the chains of life by using death as a drive to maintain his goals or exit the game of endless cycle of life vs playing the rigged game after you realize the algorithm and discover the formula and still not attempted but participated in the actual world we perceive then most. Seems like he realized death was inevitable and based on the conclusion (tho it's not likely I think that theirs free will for even this) utilized his self-awareness, that is the worst side effect of our existence and nature's birth, of us, is for chaos and our death as the counterbalance, had enough and stopped the determined path early. Unless our world is one that as I say cycles of chaos and rebirth then Plato was partially right: there is a perfect reality...that of no cycle eternal space and no conscious to even perceive the cycle, darkness, death, pain, etc. Where you won't be fucked over to not even consenting on the existence and being a rotten shitted out meat bag capable of sensing leading to perceiving and formulating thoughts+actions= pointless absurdity as humans inevitably and 100% od on our personal tied nooses cause life and time will and always will get the drop on a mu fucka, skull fuck you, show you if you thought as a kid with trauma was bad to make you want to experience the gullible stupid mindless rupee drugging that stopped when you got older and keep going forever or until they fuck you to death while you try to kill yourself with a rusty machete. Life never not always maintains its skull fucking that is your physical essence. Don't take his death as a depressing one but a rejoiceful one in how they operated and reaching death through the best option through override vs time. Much respect to him and his Hermana I fucks with that kafa, he kept shit real and was driven and tried to get the word on lofe, realized its bullshit and rigged nothingness, and had the realness to get gritty and cheat the game into peace and balance.
This economy sucks. An economy that’s only good for rich people isn’t a good economy. Great so they can move somewhere for a minimum wage job after they borrowed money to move?
And then go into extreme levels of debt
The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
@@wind5039 You can always just file for chapter 11 Bankruptcy, General Motors filed for limited bankruptcy and emerged stronger but they still destroy cultural Icons like Holden.
Not to mention that the current minimum wage isn't enough to get by either. It's almost as if this economy was made to exploit the lower-class working man.
Problem with moving may not only be a money issue, but also the social safety net, After all you may loose the free childcare you had in your grandma and if you are so sick you cant leave your house so you can send a relative to buy groceries for you. in stronger welfare states this social safety nets mean less but my experience from Virginia USA so was you depending on the social safety net to 100% so move away may fuck you over totally so a worse job close to your friends and family is more important then a better payed work. Here in Sweden i can easy get cheap affordable childcare and can easier handle my self without the social safety net but with austerity do the increase the need of a social safety net.
As much as I dislike Destiny's takes nowadays, I'm thankful he gave us Vaush.
Yeah the post capitalist socialist who's online career was made possible by worker co ops...whoops. Even his over consumption of food (hes a fat ass) is the byproduct of capitalism in a first world country while playing on his 3 thousand dollar computer brought to him by socialism? Shit I give up why do you morons watch this guy?
And hasan
@@jlp6864 I'm not much of a Hasan fan. Not since finding out how he treated his editor. I dont like when people talk left but act right.
@@sammylong3704 dont know the full extend of it but wasnt that a bit of a misunderstanding?
CABdosdos you want to improve society and yet you live in society. Curious. I am very intelligent.
Man if Destiny doesn't want to politically labeled, maybe he should talk less about politics in public...
How the hell he thinks its normal to swap between neoliberal and socdem depending who he is talking to. From the way he argues he is more a neolib then anything close to a socdem. Thinking Pete is a good pick, no socdem would pick Pete over Bernie or warren.
My guess is that he knows what the right model position is but financially his current position is better for him. That's why he hates debating lefty's, he known he is wrong and uses lots of the same debate tactics rightwingers use when he is advising from a left position.
Destiny is very quick to assign labels to others.
I dont exactly want to defend Destiny, but that is pretty accurate and its his aversion to theory that makes him not understand the difference. Destiny is Neoliberal in his support of "free trade". Its the other halmark, austerity, that Destiny is against and on that he is socdem. His general pro market anti protectinist stance is why Vaush puts him more firmly into neolib, and I tend to agree and I think Destiny would too if he saw it that way.
You can talk about politics without having an ideology or label. Labels are stupid, all ideologies have some good ideas that you should be able to pick from and mix.. There is no "right side" or "right ideology" or "right solution", it all depends on which time and which country you're living in, and it depends on what needs to be done to start the particular revolution that's needed in your country, or sometimes just what needs to be done to balance things out when the politics are leaning too much towards one side and forgetting some group in society. This idea that right-wing ideology is just a conspiracy created by the rich to keep the rest of us down - is bullshit. Plenty of average working people vote for the right and are happy with the results, they aren't all stupid, and this is comming from a leftist myself. Again, it all depends on what time and situation you're living in. So just picking ONE ideology, especially one that leans very far too one side like communism, and then just getting all your answers from this one sided pre-thought out ideology that has the same solutions for everything - is really stupid. All these ideologies were made up centuries ago in totally different times with totally different problems and seeing things from just one perspective is never good, and Vaush certainly NEVER sees things from the perspective of the right or the center or even most of the left, he just sees everything from the theoretical lence of a communist. Destiny doesn't need to choose a label or ideology to talk politics, he can think for himself, you know, pick from differenet sides, focus on policy, he doesn't have to play a role or be a talking robot for one ideology with all the answers.
*argantosnl*
I know it’s 5 months later, but do you unironically think that Destiny is a neoliberal? Like, by its definition? He only _swaps_ between those labels because political labels are treated like teams in online politics. So, when the right doesn’t like him, he’s called a socdem or socialist. When the left doesn’t like him, he’s called a neoliberal. These labels are distinctly not useful in online spaces because no one uses the academic definition and more so imposes their own definition that they’ve heard used colloquially.
This is important because Destiny specifically rejects every tenet of neoliberalism except for globalized trade. He’s Keynesian in his monetary policy, he likes stricter regulation, he advocates for decreased private ownership of certain industries, he wants to increase taxes, he wants to increase federal spending, and a bunch of other things that are literally diametrically opposed to neoliberalism. So, when he’s given that label by laymen on the Internet, of course it’s used as a pejorative rather than being descriptive.
And he advocates for Biden over Trump despite Trump being undeniably better for him financially, so I don’t understand what your point is about not supporting Bernie because he cares about maintaining his wealth
How cute, Destiny thinks lobbying is done by people and not money.
A M A Z I N
I cant believe he believes this.
Peepo Happy z’ hbb
Hey, it's also done by lobbyists.. they're monsters in people suits, that's kinda similar to a person :P
I love this. 2 people arguing over structures of a company, but both are uneducated, self-proclaimed experts. Vaush do you even know whats the difference between a publicly and privately owned company?
And that actually you could by enough shares to have full control of BP or Newmont or any of those evil corporations, and change tgeir business model or operating practices.
@@miksausitis Maybe i am just unable to spot the sarcasm, but your comment feels a bit like:
you have to guys talking about higher mathematics and u come to the scene asking: dO YoU eVeN kNoW wHaT iS tWo pLuS tWo?
for the bravest mobile memers
0:00 - Classism and bias against the unemployed
1:02:30 - Destiny's perceived bias against the Left
1:20:30 - Capitalism vs market socialism
LUIOFFICIAL AUDIO Mobile Memers FTW!!!!!
yo wtf
you here??
Weird to find you here
thanks dawg
Holy fuck your also a comrade?
One fallacy I'd like to point out in Destiny's reasoning is that his understanding of the human subject, our "species-being" so to speak, is one that is assumed to be universal, unchanging and pervasive throughout all sociopolitical systems. His fundamental conception of what it is to be human is always going to be biased in favor of capitalist ideology, because this conception itself is a byproduct of capitalist ideology. So long as this abstract of human nature remains at the center of his arguments, he will never be persuaded towards socialism. I will list the example in which this is most transparent:
Destiny holds the view that "most people" would like to "do their job, go home, spend time with their friends and family." And presumably also engage in entertaining hobbies, social gatherings, etc, rather than engage in informing themselves and participating in the organization of their workplace through meetings, etc. For this reason, he concludes that worker co-operatives constitute a central flaw in theory, and would lead to no substantially impressive outcome than the traditional top-down model of capitalist relations. This is effectively an argument from human nature.
I argue that this assumption of general human nature is only observable within a very recent, very narrowly defined, construct of the modern worker, and his understanding of what human nature is must be historically contextualized. Under capitalist realism, work and one's personal life, in addition to one's personal leisure, is defined strictly in antagonism against one another, both literally and metaphysically. On a material level, the workplace is often times physically removed from our material associations of home or belonging. Or our sense of community. Our sense of physical freedom. Work is a physical confines whose borders separate a space of automatic labor against a space of autonomous liberty--the former denotes a demanded level of professionalism, dress conduct, manners of speech or behavior, and alienating codes of deference, while the latter releases all these restrictions and returns a significant degree of individuality and authenticity to the worker's being. On a metaphysical level, we are taught to perceive the ontological space of one's "workplace" to be a hostile environment. One that is competitive, stressful to our mental and physical health, and that is always in antagonism against our interests. This is literally on display in the classical "8 hour model" of worker time divisions: 8 hours for work, 8 hours for leisure, 8 hours of sleep. In effect, capitalist realism ideologically compels us to internalize the concept and space of "work" as being antithetical to mutuality, community, social bonding, physical and mental autonomy, authenticity, and of course, fun--everything that is necessary to a fulfilling human existence.
In addition to this, capitalist realism also categorizes human beings into class hierarchies, assigning prescriptive roles and expectations to members of distinct classes. If you are a worker, you are EXPECTED to dislike your job. You are expected to be tired and lazy on Mondays. Expected to want to leave the moment it's time to clock out. Expected to defer to management and bosses to make any decision outside of your area of assignment. Expected to be ignorant of the detailed business movements of your company and the general economy. And on a broader societal level, expected to be ignorant of obscure academic research relevant to your field of work, such as the mentioned studies about the effects of xyz on climate change. It is within the role of a construction worker, for example, to not know much science at all. You are expected to lift things, become tired, go home, watch television and sleep. Nothing else. Class expectation imposes a social role upon workers that is very much comparable to the ways in which a social order like Patriarchy will reinforce social expectations and behaviors from, say, the role of women.
If the ideological borders of what "work" means and the expected social role of a worker were to be culturally redefined, then we can only expect a radically different attitude towards working and taking responsibility for the partial management of one's workplace. Destiny assumes that his conception of human nature is universal, regardless of political or economic systems. I argue that his conception of human nature is dominant only within currently existing ideological, cultural and economic models, and that these models can be changed: for example, if workplaces were to be less autocratic and exploitative as Vaush is suggesting, then we might be able to witness a more authentic and mutual relationship workers experience with the workplace, which in turn leads to a change in how "work" and "workplaces" are ontologically understood, which in turn leads to a broader willingness to engage in the responsibility of collective management.
Do you have a blog or something? I loved this
Fantastic Response, thanks for taking the time to write this out. I agree with everything you have said here. I would suggest the reason for Destiny taking the view that he does is that he is basing his model of human subjectivity around the more reductionist, Behavioral views about human psychology prevalent among many Liberals these days. Why he's doing that may have more to do with his preference for certain forms of Epistemology, which favour empirical data and reproducibility over rationalist inference to best explanations. I am aware what I'm saying here appears highly reductive, but to delve into all the details would require too much typing :]
Amazingly well-crafted and intelligent comment!
Very impressive analysis, I must say.
Pretty much, yep. Well done.
Destiny limits himself severely with what he assumes to be the "default" state of things. It's more or less impossible to argue about changing the system with someone who assumes some/all of this system is immutable.
I think Destiny needs some yoga or something. Dude sounds really high-strung.
Odd too, I hear his quite the sex enthusiast as well...you think I'll that getting off would unwind him a tad.
He’s just playing that anger because it helps him get views lol it’s part of his persona now.
IAmNoOne I think political discourse has actually broken him to some extent, like how most people feel after arguing with a nazi. His whole job is to yell at people he considers dumb, while they yell back. That’s stressful
@@junipetta1595 Doesn't he stream for 16 hours a day or something? I'm not a psychologist but arguing with stupid people 16 hours a day probably isn't great for your mental health.
He’s definitely an angry little guy.
Vaush, if you're reading this, I think it's going to be extremely difficult to continue debating socialism against Destiny on his terms of the debate. He will always ask you to provide a hyper-specific example of how socialist organization will be able to effectively deal with certain issues within a broader framework of capitalist relations. He is blind to the ways in which capitalism itself is the root cause of these issues in several instances (such as your argument to how manufactured consent is a product of a billionaire class owning the media). He will always nitpick and nirvana fallacy the hell out of any theoretical solution you give within this framework, and then attack you because the example is speculation and not 100% verifiable empirical data. If he is to be tackled, he needs to be dismantled on his fundamental philosophical assumptions about human nature and the teleological goal of society in general. He needs to be shown that a classless, stateless society is at least a desirable philosophical goal, before being able to be moved with economic arguments such that the steps we take to reach such a goal is allowed to be flawed, since you would have demonstrated that no matter the weaknesses of the minutia of your arguments towards a transition, capitalism needs to be dismissed.
All I read was, get him to move away from the fact all we are talking about is fantastical and people will always do what's best for them. That way we will win all the time because rich people bad. Fuck off.
@@CaBdosdos Do you have any actual positions
@@CaBdosdos yeah people clearly do whats best for them by being ruthlessly exploited and fucked by rich people.
Not my socialism!!
I know no one here needs this argument, but its hilarious because 90% of the world would actually benefit from redistributing the wealth of the top ten percent. Even if you dont believe capitalism is exploitation, that is just a numerical fact.
Destiny just repeated for hours the same statement he always make:
Workers are dumb. You are going to make workers take decisions in rocket science? lol thats utopian blabla
In the companies i know, the bosses don't know better than the workers most of the times. A lot of the times the workers (engineers, administrators, etc) are who actually run the company, and make all the big decisions and such, obviously, without the big rewards.
He acts like when you say WORKERS you ONLY refer to extremely low skill worker or something like that. SKILLED WORKERS OF A COMPANY ARE WORKERS TOO.
SO NO, DESTINY, SOCIALISM IS NOT LETTING THE JANITOR DETERMINE HOW TO LAUNCH A ROCKET TO SPACE. Its the possibility of the janitor to have something of a say in the company, for example so he can have more say in when to go to work, how to work, when to take vacations, to fire (colectively) a boss if that boss is completely stupid, etc.
He always brings back things to the same simplified reality.
"Oh you saying the janitor is going to make decisions in tesla, lol, only eLoN mUsK the IQ superior human being like me can make those decisions. Sorry bro socialism destroyed. You are not in the levels of my halls of intelligentsia"
I call this, The Rick & Morty's logic.
PS: Destiny should watch the documentary by Naomi Klein = The Take
That SHOWS CLEAR CONCRETE EXAMPLES of already functioning co-operatives in Argentina in 2001
EDR LFE I smell t e c h n o c r a c y
Based
It's almost as though he's correct.
Thats not the debate i heard, it definitely sounded like he engaged Vaushs arguments pretty well
Thing is, i do agree to some extent with him on democracy. Workplace democracy is simply logical, as workers, whether they like it or not, are simply directly involved into their field. However, i do agree that most people have no care or interest in broader policy, and maybe that level of politics should be kept to professionals. I mean one thing i certainly agree with him is that under a "4 years presidential term" system, whatever you may accomplish in those 4 years can be fucked by the 5th year because the dumb population elects some useless idiot, namely Trump or Boris.
I'm only half an hour in but my question for Destiny would be: what level of poverty do you think your advice applies to and what % of poor people is it? Because it's asinine to give overly general advice and then moan that people counter that it doesn't really apply to many.
TBH, the whole "advice" thing sounds like a really bad excuse that he came up with to justify ranting about lefties.
isn't this an argumentative fallacy? If I say 2 things should be separate and you say draw a line where one thing becomes the other and I can't do it that doesn't mean that drawing a line somewhere and having false positives and true negatives won't yield results that we can improve later. He could give a number to draw that line, but it isn't necessary because if you say poor you will capture most of the group he is referring to, and if you say move then obviously they have enough for rent in some respects because they aren't homeless. There are likely people within the interval who the advice doesnt apply to, but there is no need to tune it to specific incomes unless we are writing policy
Did you watch the video eventually? Because its explained in decent detail. Its general advice and they acknowledge that it doesn't apply to EVERY poor person as it was never supposed to.
@@megafanflash yet by spending MOST of one's time explaining why poor individuals need better money management gives away bias/ideology. We can agree on the same set of facts. Our differences arise in the importance we give to them
@@matteo-ciaramitaro "but there is no need to tune it to specific incomes unless we are writing policy" so real world application instead of our biases defining what's important. In destiny's case, neoliberal and usually atomized in vacuum scenarios
I am really bummed out by how much animosity Destiny has towards Kyle Kulinsky. I have been a Secular Talk fan for 5 years and hearing him go so hard on Kyle bothers me a lot, and I don’t think it is deserved whatsoever
Kyle sonned him on economics in a stream with him destiny and hasan, i think destiny is very egotistical and this hurt him
Oh i wouldnt worry, just wait till kyle claps back one of these days.
Hes used to decimating neoliberal hacks on twitter lol.
Man i want to see a vaush and kyle kulinsky discussion stream so badly. Ive been watching both daily for a good while now.
@@demonkingkongo0524 o rly? You have any data to back up those claims?
Sir Secular Kyle kulinski has made tweet after tweet accusing the DNC of rigging the election against Bernie without any evidence that’s why destiny goes after him
@Jon Favreu
Except there is evidence, the Wikileaks as well as Donna Brazile confirmed, that the DNC was basically an arm of the Hillary campaign. Also if you look at the disaster in Iowa and don’t see anything, I think you’re the conspiracy theorist
Destiny also omits the reality that even if the unemployment rate is low, it doesn't mean you can get any job you want. With my years of professional white collar work, no restaurant would hire me. Systemic issues affect the poor, and he claims they don't care about it - all the votes for Bernie Sander's disagrees.
Destiny doesn't have a populist bone in his body. He hides behind the concept of "pure theory" and thought experiments. He puts everything *he* says in a vacuum and harshly nitpicks any assertion his opponents make.
He argues from a place of bad faith most of the time now.
I also experienced this. I have been an adult education teacher and administrator for 13 years. It pays shit, no union, no full time work, no benefits, crappy schedules, extremely high emotional labor. I applied to 54 OTHER jobs in other fields between November and January from labor to retail and beyond and was hired by none of them. I'm stuck in this one part time teaching position and I'm exhausted and sad and trapped.
This debate was actually really fucking good. I think you did a good job of sort of forcing Destiny to confront a lot of bias he has against the left currently, and it was really refreshing and heart warming to see him engage with leftist arguments in a good faith manner, and I think you did a good job of defending your positions. I think the discussion was especially fruitful when you were talking about market socialism. Good job, comrade :)
Once it all switched over to the market socialism topic, the conversation went from "okay" to "legit". That's where I came in on the livestream, so I hadn't seen all the rhetoric conversation until today.
It;s obvious that V is fond of Des, but I think he puts up with too much BS because of it. Just my opinion
@@joeyj6808 Hard disagree - he's called out Destiny on bad faith BS on multiple occasions, and during their first conversation Vaush nailed Destiny down on strawmans and said he was acting in bad faith multiple times.
@@ignis6591 I see what youre saying. I guess I just have no patience for people like D. But I have a lot of respect for V and his debating skills (which I sadly lack)
Density is definitely eager for better optics than last time, but anything is an improvement from the meltdown he had on stream, to be honest.
lmao this might be the only funny destiny name meme that exists
@@vinny5638 desTINY
@fluoxy L. What
@fluoxy L. What
@fluoxy L. What
Vaushuto trying to pull Sasukestiny back from the darkness...
The vaushstiny arc took a surprising turn.
you have to relive fidel castro the first hokage of cuba to tell him the truth and find peace in his heart
VASHUTOOO!!!!
SASUKESTINY!!!!!
THIS IS MY NINJA WAY!!
LOL
Back to the village hidden in the Left
The socialism vs capitalism debate was by far the best one I've seen either Vaush or Destiny do.
It was nice to hear Vaush go up against someone who can make substantive criticisms of his arguments (e.g. in a system in which there are significant barriers to entry in starting worker co-ops, their relative successes *could* be explained by a form of self-selection).
On the other hand, it was really great to see Destiny have to grapple with a lefty who was knowledgeable and could answer questions in a deeper-than-surface-level way.
They even agreed on short term policy goals with respect to worker co-ops, namely finding ways to lower the barrier to entry to starting them (e.g. via subsidized loans) so that we could study them on a larger scale.
I watched Destiny's video of this debate since it came out first, and after it ended he said that he enjoys discussions with Vaush and that he respected him which was very wholesome. Vaush/Destiny teamup arc?
@Guiuu Shurt god i hope that's a joke
Guiuu Shurt god stfu you pretentious, performative, batshit fucking larper
@Guiuu Shurt pure malarkey
@Guiuu Shurt Bruh
@Guiuu Shurt LMAO
i love how he blames his editors for the video of him screaming at poor people idk man
Ghoulish Toad to be fair if you watch that stream the video was taken from Destiny did give several genuine pieces of advice that weren’t included in the video at all, hence why vaush thinks that destiny wasn’t actually giving advice
@@rprkjj8730 yeah i know he did but i just think telling people to literally Kill Themselves and label it advice.... is in very very poor taste to say the least
@@rprkjj8730 yeah that's something I've noticed too. It's the clipped nature of his new contents that helps make it more toxic imo. Its like bites sized fast food content if you get me
@@rprkjj8730 kinda reminds me of the low quality content mass produced by anti sjws quantity over quality
@@demonkingkongo0524 Hell yea homeless pussy is where it's at.
Destiny's ultimate point as I understand it, is that "poor people should move sometimes" which is about as useful advice as "just get a better job." It's meaningless words from a successful internet streamer that fell on hard times earlier in his life and feels contempt for others PERIOD. Destiny is not an egalitarian nor does he harbor respect for people in worse situations than the one he managed to crawl out of in the fledgling esports community. He doesn't respect other people because he doesn't need to. He's a classic libertarian that can't cast off that dirty coat in favor of helping everyone else.
Correct. His "advice" is worthless.
@@CorporateShill66 True, at best it's vacuous.
No, I get what he's saying. "Sometimes, when you're poor, the only way to get out of being poor is to move somewhere with better economic prospects." Then, Destiny, when being told how hard it could be to move for a lot of poor people, said "Well then you're shit out of luck and you should just give up", his logic being that if you must move but you are unable to move, there is nothing that you can do. I think he phrased it very irresponsibly, but I see the logic behind it.
Spot on. The most accurate analysis of Destiny I've seen yet.
Patrick McHugh this just isn’t true. He advocates for social programs to help the poor all the time, even thinks people like him should be paying much more in taxes. I’m sure you would agree there is something the average poor person could do to better themselves financially. Of course we should change the system to help them and prevent poverty, but what do you suggest these people do until then? There are things you can do (like moving and other examples Destiny gave) to potentially better your situation.
Destiny makes a lot of arguments based on pure nihilism. It's pretty obvious that even an imperfect libertarian socialist state would be a SIGNIFICANT improvement from Capitalism. Destiny is cynical for the sake of being cynical and merely tried to find every hole in any socialist model while overlooking the million issues with capitalism
I can't blame him for being nihilistic or cynical, but I can blame him for not thinking some of the left ideas are definitely worth trying instead of sticking with this existentially distressing landscape we have right now.
I had a similar mindset. When Vaush acknowledged the imperfections socialism can have that literally is the single thing that convinced me by forcing me to confront my cynicism
@@onimaxblade8988 Destiny needs to read more Marx, Engeles, and some anarchist philosophy like Peter Kropotkin, Emma goldman, Mikail Bakuinin, Rosa Luxembourg, and especially Noam Chomsky. Destiny seems to have only read mainstream liberal enlightenment philosophy.
Something I don't understand about his ardent defense of the status quo is that he believes a more flat hierarchical system will still have the same problems as this current one. While on its face that's a fair claim, it doesn't stand up when you ask "Which one is more likely to be corrupted?"
With power (or wealth) more evenly distributed, it'll make it way more difficult to get the outcomes we're at right now. Instead of a multi-billionaire just buying elections or influence in elections, a flatter system of wealth will mean people have to have the support of the populace to gain power (i.e Bernie Sanders). Just because a different system can have the same outcome, doesn't mean you shouldn't change it. Hell if you have your seatbelt on, there's nothing stopping you from still dying in a wreck but it obviously decreases those chances so I'm sure he would agree with that.
@ICARUS 10inch The US military cuckflake!
Kid named Israel: 😢
You are the real God also please give me your death note
Full Metal Death note needs to be commonly owned, comrade
49:20 lol Destiny... Right wingers don't know what a SocDem is... Literally never heard a good faith right winger in my life call people on the left anything other than communist Venezuelans... Try harder to pivot next time, Density... Damn...
@DYNAMIC I mean, I've never personally seen a right-winger online understand the different between socdem and full on Soviet Communism.
I'm not being a troll, I'm just adding my own anecdotal evidence.
@@KickinAss1000 thinkprogress.org/a-history-of-republicans-calling-democrats-socialists-777bcd2b7a6d/ don't know if this would help you see where they're coming from.
@@KickinAss1000 Dem Soc and Soc Dem being different is very confusing, if that is true.
Besides that... I mean, we're allowed to talk anecdotally, and I think it is honest to say a lot of people really don't know what Socialism means. I didn't for the majority of my life, especially with all the misinformation that is spread, so I don't exactly blame people for not understanding, but a lot of people just really don't know, from what I see time and time again.
@DYNAMIC I don't think socdem means socialism, I think it means capitalism with a larger safety net and more regulation. I might be wrong on that-I'm not exactly a poli-sci major-but that's my understanding.
And the person commenting above wasn't making a point in an offical debate format, it was just a UA-cam comment. They were just making a point based off their personal experience.
It's been their experience, and mine, that they have NEVER seen a right-winger honestly engage with the concept of social democracy-instead, they just go, "OH YEAH, WELL VENEZUELA, CHECKMATE".
I mean, I'd like to do a poll on that. But I doubt something that specific has a Gallup. So for now, it's just anecdotes.
And thanks for assuming good faith.
@@KickinAss1000 i also have never once seen any right winger in history get anything really correct on well. anything really, regarding socialism, social democracy, communism, or even capitalism.
Wow, 2020 the year Destiny unabashedly and unashamedly engaged in right wing rhetoric
Yeah, I'm legit surprised that he hasn't gone full Bloombegging yet
Lean Mantern lol wtf he supported him in like highschool
Lean Mantern
Lean Mantern, Destiny shit talked OKBloomer and then said, "your gonna delete this vod, right? So I can get sponsored by him". It was one of the funniest things hes said in a while.
Your definition of right wing is wrong then
Destiny got unemployed and couldn't move in this debate.
Destiny was a progressive. He progressed to a liberal and he stayed there. The left is growing and Destiny is outliving his usefulness.
Pretty much. Had to recently unsubscribe and leave the subreddit.
@@JohnDoe-ee2yk unsubscribed as well friend, a sad day too...I was with Destiny back in his early 100k subscriber days man! Hopefully, Vaush can lead him down a redemption arc.
*tips fedora*
Yikes.
It’s crazy to me that destiny doesn’t just say “you’re right that was a stupid tangent and quite classist”, like why does he have to have it both ways that he was right originally but also there are capital barriers that trap workers in place? He was wrong factually as well as being totally chauvinistic towards workers in his original rant.
Wanton Disregard megalomania
To be fair, Vaush went way too hard on his 'bomb Israel' statement as well. Anyone with half a brain stem understands that when someone says that we should bomb Israel people are going to assume you're an anti-semitic. Especially when you're arguing about being responsible as a public figure, he should have conceded that he fucked up and understands that it could easily be viewed as an anti-semitic statement.
@@Duckman1616 did you watch the video?
@@TheTaylos Yes.
Duckman1616 he disavowed the bomb Israel statement
Good job man just watched the debate you outclassed stefan on every point and were brilliant. He just couldn't handle you. Your points were clear and direct while he came across as confused.Good job just subscribed, greetings from Kenya.We still suffer from the effects of colonialism to this day so it is very real for us.
Wtf?! If talking over your opppnent, calling him names, shouting at him, and then running away is "outclassing" them, you'd have a point. However, you don't have a point.
Sorry.
@@ArtistFormerlyKnownAsShitlord no no, he said Vaush outclassed Stefan, not the other way around.
@@BBQcheese thank you
@@ArtistFormerlyKnownAsShitlord This is just a fake account of Vaush pretending a black dude likes him.
@@hugechromepeach7916 LOL
Yo, I would like to see a debate between Vaush and Kyle Kulinski. Social democracy vs socialism, gender politics, trade would be the topics.
I would love to see that too. Social democracy is inevitable before socialism in a country like the USA where the Overton Window is that far right.
Kyle doesn't really like debates
@Huh? flawless bayte
@Huh? ait
I disagree. Kyle is going super far left recently and it might be redundant, other than to mask off Kyle, which could hurt the left pipeline.
"Your solution doesn't solve all the problems therefore I will disregard the improvements it does bring"
Seems to be Destiny's stance during the whole coop section
Would you want to debate coops over discord
Destiny is so paranoid about being called mean names by people on the internet that he immediately assumes any critique (even by, y'know... fans of his?) is an insult somehow.
The exchange around 45(?) minutes in was basically just that. It seems like the only thing he's actually concerned about.
Destiny has so much pent up resentment against his leftist ex-friend. The carcinogenic residues from the gas lighting that went on during their breakups is why Destiny is now riddled with the cancerous opinions he expressed in this debate. The man is literally going off in a histrionic rant that is nothing but big oil apologia for climate change. Destiny is worse than a global warming denier, he is an oligarchy denier. .
Given that he’s always complaining about the fact that people on the Chapo subreddit make fun of him, this is completely true. It’s so funny
Destiny has fallen so far in my eyes, it saddens me so much to see him act like this...
War Tome well I’m some one to yo mama, gottem
@@farsight6680 gottem
@@farsight6680 I'm fanning him but he fainted, oh LORD
@@farsight6680 gottem
WHAT A MESS
Destiny got his cheeks clapped by Vaush in this debate.
@Huh? It's a meme dude, smoke a joint you fucking dork lol
@Huh? You just missed it again.
@Huh? Lmao normie
"Because people in power have power?"
People die if they are killed, Destiny.
That happens when you are debating.
Destiny challenged Richard Wolff to a debate in this debate.
He'd never do that he is such a pussy, when Richard Wolff challenged him he declined, cuz he knows that not only are the lefties the ones with the moral high ground but also with the logical economic system
@@ChelseaHicSalta yeah that debate and the one with noncompete were really good, they both humiliated destiny and proved that destiny doesn't know shit about politics
Well it’s happing now!
Destiny got compared to Sargon in this debate
Why is Destiny using Fox News talking points? Is this what getting rich does to you?
Are you implying Vaush isn't a pampered rich kid?
There is research proving this.
@@MaLva500 exceptions to every rule, I guess
I'm glad Destiny got a little more good faith towards the end but he really really needs to understand that bringing up Israel every time Vaush tries to criticize him is whataboutism. He's not engaging with Vaush's points at all and just deflects everything back at Vaush because "he also said something bad". I don't really know much about Destiny but based on what I've heard about him... he must've understood this fallacy at one point and argued against other people who used it right?
ProgPro96 if you watch more debates with him this past year you’ll notice that he comes across like a centrist Ben Shapiro.
I think a big issue with this is that every time destiny tried to turn the critique back on vaush, vaush didn’t make it clear enough that he fully agrees the incidents are analogous AND ACKNOWLEDGES THAT HE FUCKED UP. That point was discussed, but I don’t think vaush hit enough on the fact that destiny was trying to avoid disavowing content by bringing up content vaush was very willing to disavow.
I don't think that bringing up Israel was necessarily a whataboutism, not in the sense of a fallacy, as he wanted to show an inconsistency in an argument. What does bother me though is that Vaush did disavow what he said, he did say that he was irresponsible in his framing about Israel, so there just isn't any inconsistency. The fixation on the "fuck Israel" was weird since it's a far cry from the other two examples, and since Vaush did specifically put it into context. But I understand Destiny's frustration, the last few months were full of dishonest attacks when it came to his positions and framing, and I think he low-key acknowledged that in this debate. There's also no hard feelings towards Vaush, there were with all the other lefties (like Hasan), so I think Destiny understood his blunder.
Joel Costa, Yeah "fuck Isreal" Isn't at all semantically clear. It was kind of cheap but Destiny was not wrong that nazis could say that too. But Vaush did argue strongly for having to give qualifiers so its not that he intended that to stand alone. It just wasnt a real strong rhetorical statement.
He does understand that. Most apes understand that. I am not even talking about the smart signing apes, even the dumb animal testing apes understand that shit. It is simply bad faith.
I'm really glad this debate happened. I feel like they were able to clear the air, and now their March debate will probably be a lot more productive.
These two debates feel like build up towards the on in March. Glad they got to clear out some animosity before that one happed.
Yeah I was REALLY worried about the March debate after the shouting match, but the way this one ended made me feel like we're going to see a really fun conversation next month.
this aged well
Destiny's argument against the viability of worker democracy is bunk. He is either being reductionist or invokes a nirvana fallacy when it comes to the "verticality growing with the coop size". While this is principle is generally true, as Vaush said numerous times, the worst case is still better than the private case in terms of worker representation.
Think of every democratic nation state: They might include many millions of citizens, so obviously there is a significant degree of verticality in its political system - that is representative democracy - yet we would categorically differentiate it from literal autocracies and prefer them over the latter, no matter how many flaws there are; bc at least structurally there is the pretext of representation and accountability.
Destiny's entire 'counter argument' to anything left wing seems "well its not 100% perfect, so why bother?". It's laughable.
@@Khalkara Yeah, it is called the nirvana fallacy. The Left's burden is not to demonstrate that socialism is literally flawless but merely that it is generally preferable relative to capitalism.
Notice that Destiny never points out any exclusive issue with coops that is not also known to apply to private firms to _at least_ the same extent.
The debate was a waste of time for both parties from my point of view. It's hard to tell how honest Destiny is anymore because you can't tell if he's being hyperbolic or genuine. We know Destiny's positions in the past but i can't take his word for it anymore with his contempt for leftist. He does a lot of blanket statements or strawmen of leftist that are clearly uncharitable, and it's done purposely. Nothing in this conversation moved either party from what they believe nor did it move the audience. It's obvious that Destiny's main take away from this is that it's the same socialist utopian conversation.
I'm finding these debates with Destiny to be the most boring and frustrating of any conversation. I actually liked the debate with Stefan Molyneux more than the debate with Destiny.
He is more concerned with not falling into a gotchya. He doubles down too much. He would argue that all children should be molested just to argue lowering the age of consent or some shit. Remember not caring about animals just to checkmate a vegan?
The Dlive arc really has been the best.
Couldn't agree more lol
Man, his first ever stream on DLive started with the 20 minute Destiny screaming shitshow and had 12K viewers. If 2020 isn't the year of the Vaush, nothing will be.
Vaush becoming Dlive Andy actually increased his viewer count (12k concurrent during first Destiny debate), it's kinda ironic
I like how vash says he disavowed the bomb stuff and destiny is like oh okay great then 30 minutes later he brings it up again to attack vaush
I like how destiny says he disavowed the poor person hyperbole and vaush is like oh okay great then .3 seconds later he brings it up again to attack destiny
@@Mr.Limekiller He never disavowed it. He argued that it was taken out of context. Those are two very different things.
@@boyo-shook3891 And Vaush never actually disavowed the Israel comments, he actually reinforced it multiple times saying he just didn't mean the Israeli population, he meant the country itself. They both did the same thing and Destiny kept bringing it up to show Vaush saying almost the exact same things to clarify as he was.
Not sure how this is hard to understand.
Mr. Limekiller, the issue is that Vaush claimed he actually had a problem what Destiny said. Everyone knows that Destiny didn't actually take offense at Vaushs comment so he was being bad faith by bringing it up and just using "whataboutism". Vaush tried to call him out on it by incorrectly saying he was "pivoting", which actually means trying to change the subject.
@@JebeckyGranjola So arguments are only valid if they personally offend us now?
"If you're being discriminated against because you're black, change your skin color. Drugs that change skin tone have never been more available."
"I'm just giving practical advice bro."
"Just stay in the closet 4Head"
Time stamp?
@@aralornwolf3140 They're not from the video, we're having fun applying the logic to other examples.
@@IMatchoNation ,
Oh.
"If you're discriminated against because you're a billionaire, cease being a billionaire." That type of logic?
@@aralornwolf3140 So being a billionaire is the same as being a minority? You can always give away money or not exploit your labor. I can't give away my skin tone...nice false equivalent.
Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners.
Vladimir Lenin
@
No shit
@Hans Hanzo Rome was a slave? to whom? oh I know...the forces of human movement.
You can't say you hate rhetoric, then make your entire career on debate.
This is the same contradiction found in Plato. Plato was MASSIVELY against rhetoric, yet he used it all the time.
I think the point is to say that both rhetoric and policy are the means, not the end. And stopping with more foundational rhetoric instead of extrapolating that rhetoric to policy changes nothing. Vaush even says his intent was to create a political movement, which is strange if he doesn't acknowledge policy is the middle ground between rhetoric and its end. I think Vaush may be saying sound rhetoric allows for effective policy choices across time, and Destiny is saying policy is more effective at reaching an end; I think that's the most charitable reading I can give of their positions.
@@zekiel777 The problem is that rhetoric is everywhere. Even policy is rhetoric because passing a law implies a certain persuasion that benefits one group and harms another.
Like, Destiny can hate rhetoric all he wants, but that'll do him about as good as hating Oxygen.
Yeah pretty much. I know this might be a bit of an uncharitable take, but it feels like he doesn't want to be held accountable to the specifics of things he says, so long as his core idea is fine. Trouble is, as Vaush said, that's not how the game works.
It's okay to contradict yourself SOMETIMES. Humans aren't unchanging logic machines. It's possible to believe in things that don't align or even clash.
Growth comes from overcoming paradoxes/ percieved-paradoxes like this.
@@choochdrews Sure, but that one is just like openly contradictory. I'm just surprised Destiny doesn't realize this.
He is so bad faith whenever he gets even slightly triggered. It's like me when I talk to my mom.
Destiny: I'm a hardcore determinist.
Also Destiny: I don't like that framing because it takes away a poor person's agency.
You can believe people have agency and not free will. Free will and agency are different. You can also believe people should be treated as if they have agency and not believe they actually do have it.
u posted cringe buddy
Bad argument! Delete this filth of a comment!
@@thatyoutubechannel9953 Nah, not really. Mot if you're a utilitarian like Destiny claims to be. What's the utility in treating people like they have free will if they don't?
@@badgaming921 The ONLY reason to treat people as though they have free will is utility. It's not useful to say people have no free will because it makes no difference. Free will is an illusion of cause and effect, but it makes no practical difference.
Destiny: “Oh it almost sounds like Vaush saying I’m not antisemitic I did a video on Israel one time.”
Yeah Destiny the thing is that saying you hate the state of Israel, who is supported mostly by evangelical Christians and engages in fascistic etho-nationalist tendencies and who is also led by a Holocaust revisionist, isn’t nowhere near the same thing as saying you hate Jewish people, otherwise there wouldn’t be Jewish people who hate the state of Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries.
Ultron-5 Destiny fans on his video keep spamming that hating a state ie Israel is no different to hating the Jews. It’s depressing and bad faith as I’m convinced most of them can’t be that stupid.
Sargon’s Black Grandfather exactly, by saying that hating the state of Israel is the same as hating Jewish people they’re literally making the same argument that evangelical fanatic Dennis Prager made in a video awhile back.
@@ultron-5600 Prager is actually a Jew, he has just sucked up to evangelicals so hard for so long that now everyone assumes he is one
Sargon’s Black Grandfather I wonder what destiny fans would think of people saying “fuck America?” Does that make those who say it racist against almost all races since a plethora of races live in the US in significant numbers.
Daniel Vincent no he isn’t he might be ethnically but from all of his stances and talking points he’s most definitely an evangelical christian just look at all of his videos on PragerU. PragerU has even come out and confirmed it himself that he’s of the Christian faith, not Judaism.
The student has become the master.
Glad to have you vaush.. youve replaced destiny and are a genuine voive for the left.. ps you KILLED Stephan!!!
The right will swallow Hasan next. Then Vaush. Till all your left with is Hunter Avallone.
(I don’t really know or care about their positions it’s just the scenario in my head)
Mommy and daddy are arguing again. I just want them to divorce at this point
Brother Oats mostly for the meme
Whelp, you got your wish.
Well Vaush got his dream come true. He got his team up arc with Destiny.
Triggered Destiny fans in the chat. Super annoying.
For some reason it has to be the most stupid, immature section of his fanbase that keeps showing up here. They all have to speak in quips and jabs for some reason.
@@resm-oe9ji Yet your comment has so much substance!! Thank you!
@@resm-oe9ji That's because they are 12.
Destiny: You don't like being poor? Move.
*Migrates to the US and Brittain to find better quality of life*
Sargon: No, not like that.
This conversation went way better than I expected
Destiny’s mic is set to 1.5x speed.
This is infinitely more interesting than debating with the right imho
Are you suggesting that libs in America aren’t right wing when looked at on a global scale?
@@andrescrespo2514 Not really. America doesn't have a typical right-wing modality, as Europe does. It's just purely "capitalistic" and "religious", either/or, or both. Most right-wing ideology has to do with groups, races and nation to be precise. In America, all this gets conflated with socialism itself ["national socialism is leftism"]. American's "right-wing" is immensely confused. The left in America is less confused, but they are also in the forefront of what could be called a "developing historical precedent" towards their own Americanized Production Society.
My favorite part is when the guy who emphasized that he is a hardcore rigid determinist said he was worried about other people taking away people’s agency. x’D
The idea that climate change is a case in point of why we shouldn’t have democracy really flips the actual circumstances we can see around us on their heads. In reality, most people seem to understand that we need to address climate change, and the ones who don’t are the ones who have been most indoctrinated through propaganda mostly financed by billionaires & the fossil fuel industry. It is because of the *lack* of democracy (through all kinds of the mechanisms built into our electoral system which were designed specifically & explicitly to prevent “an excess of democracy” that they have no avenue to have done anything serious about it by now.
To take the example Destiny gave- why don’t people go out and vote for a Green candidate? Well, I don’t think the reason is because people are just too stupid or lacking in understanding that climate change matters to see that they should support a candidate who has plans. The issue is that in our two-party, privately financed system, you are strongly disincentivized to vote outside of the two-party binary- people are led to believe (partly because it’s true) that if you vote for the Green Party, you are essentially handing it to the Republican- the one least likely to do anything about climate change. And what do you know- this election we finally have one candidate who has overcome many of the anti-democratic impediments of our system & built a movement & candidacy based on mass support of millions, who is offering a serious Green New Deal proposal... And given that one opportunity, despite a shitstorm or media propaganda against him, he has soundly won the popular vote in the first 3 caucuses (something unprecedented within either party in competitive primaries). I think this is a clear reflection of the will to address climate change (and again, that’s within a status quo which *does* disproportionally deny good education to the poor/working majority, which does inundate them with propaganda from wealthy interests determined to convince us climate change isn’t happening or isn’t influenced by human-produced emissions)...
The thing is, we already have the alternative to a democracy- a system in which the political system is by and large controlled by a “specialized class,” “the responsible men-“ that’s what liberals designed our system to be, in James Madison’s words at the Constitutional Convention, in order to form a system of government which “protects the minority of the opulent against the majority.” The reason capitalist elites have always given for opposing democracy, at their most candid (speaking amongst each other rather than rhetorically to the public), from the days of Madison to Edward Bernays to Walter Lippman to the Trilateral Commission, was not about genuine concerns that they wouldn’t be up to the task of voting. It was for class reasons: they understood that in a democracy, working people have political power (by virtue of being the majority), and that- in exactly the same way that in our current system, capitalists use their dominance in the political system to serve their own interests- in a democracy, workers would use their political power to serve their interests (the interests of the majority), which ultimately means undermining their domination at the hands of the ruling class for their own profit at the expense of the workers. I mean, clearly, it is because the major donors of both parties (who are naturally ultra-wealthy people, many major shareholders or board members at large corporations) have a short-term financial stake in continuing to extract fossil fuels. This is overwhelmingly obvious at this point. It is the most broad-based, labor-backed, popular political candidates, going against their political hegemony, who are the *only* ones pushing for any action to address climate change. The fact that that small minority has so much influence over our politics is the biggest impediment keeping them from having the sway to actually get it done, & they have that influence because they are financed (in our privately funded electoral system) by the plutocrats who profit from the oil/coal/gas industries. It doesn’t matter if it’s neoliberal technocrats like the Clinton or Obama administration (who approved tons of new drilling/fracking/coal mining) or the far-right- politicians who are financed by these capital interests, whose career depends on serving them & upholding their class power, have always & will always continue to push us towards the precipice of climate disaster, because that is the institutional inertia of the system they’re upholding, driven by the profit motive.
I’ll just close by saying: it’s a very dangerous thing to believe your political worldview is non-ideological, or transcends ideology. Your ideology can have a critique of ideology, but you cannot have a political worldview & not have an ideology. Opposition to democracy, opposition to socialism, advocacy of capitalism, & everything else that comes with this kind of liberal technocratic view is ideological- and likewise, when post-leftists talk about the problems with ideology, they are still taking an ideological position. Everyone carries axiomatic assumptions. Everyone who engages with political/social issues has some kind of values, some kind of epistemological ideas about how to rightly derive their positions, ideas about what politics are right or wrong, & this all shapes an ideology. Now, they may not be *dogmatic* with regard to one or another specific ideology... And I think it’s good not to be. But nonetheless, their worldview is still bound by the same baggage associated with being ideological that anyone else’s is, and it’s only self-deception to convince themselves that they’re immune. In fact, it’s self-defeating- they believe they’re immune because they’re aware of the negatives of ideology, but by believing their worldview isn’t ideological they fail to apply that critique to their own ideology. This is a big danger with technocracy, & with capitalist ideologies which try to convince people they’re just empirical and scientific when they are not. It would be literally impossible to have a political/economic/social worldview & be free of the bounds of ideology, & it’s best to come to terms with that and analyze your own views on the basis of that understanding.
Destiny always thought his final boss would be Ben Shapiro, when in fact it was Vaush all along
This is genuinely my favorite vaush debate. I come back to it every couple of weeks and give it a listen
MOLYMEME DEBATE
Destiny has turned so bad faith on some things, holy shit this is sad.
Also, his hatred for Kyle ever since he got spanked by him on economics is funny.
Surely he understands the gig job economy?
Destiny is literally a prime example of why "the perfect is the enemy of the good" is such an important perspective.
I was legit worried about the destiny vaush arc after the first Sargon debate but I can sleep like an angel knowing dad and the boy are talking again
this honestly doesn’t even sound like destiny at this point, i hope he’s okay lol
"Perfect socialism is better than imperfect socialism, that means that socialism is bad."
20:15 look, I was following what Destiny was trying to say until he pulled that one out, I'm really sorry but he's older than me and Vaush so I know he was alive when Matthew Shepard was killed. You don't think there are consequences for queer people coming out? You don't think those consequences can be physical or sometimes life-threatening? Holy shit man, I was following the rest of this discussion but that casual comment was fucking offensive.
hey i know this is an old comment to an old video but i don’t think that’s what destiny was trying to say. I think he was trying to say that the consequences of NOT coming out isn’t as dire as losing your property from not having a job and stuff. I understand vaush’s rebuttal to that but what i don’t understand is why vaush’s character isn’t supposed to be questioned by his hyperbolic statement but destiny’s is. Also your pfp is pretty.
This debate made me feel sad for Vaush that he ever looked up to Destiny in any way.
I'm really impressed how civil this debate was. I was expecting a full on shouting match again.
Will there be a third
In march irl
likely when they meet in person in march
@@demonkingkongo0524 stefan mollynucks
metalslayer 09 scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
@@demonkingkongo0524 "experience teaches us that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other." - Frederick Douglass, actual former chattel slave
Destiny: "I don't have contempt for poor people."
Destiny: *Proceeds to showcase contempt for poor people.*
Why would the person that makes widgets be voting for something small like changes in the software that the marketing department uses?? It can still be co-operatively owned by every employee while having separate divisions and job positions that make decisions and have enough autonomy to do their work. Destiny often has this idea that every single person would need to be able to fill every single job and roll under socialism or worker co-ops. He also seems to believe that nothing would ever be decided on effectively, because every decision would have to be voted for by every single person. You could easily have pamphlets on the issues for members of the co-op to vote on that explain the decisions that need to be made at the company. People aren't as fucking stupid as Destiny makes them out to be. He said someone at the bottom of the company doesn't want to have to make the decisions at the top of the company, he just wants to go home and party with Karen?? The type of person Destiny was describing has likely never been given the opportunity to make any sort of decisions at his workplace. How could you say he doesn't want to or wouldn't be intelligent enough to, if they have never been given the opportunity? Also, just because he'd rather go home and party with Karen or whatever doesn't mean he can't make decisions in his workplace. I really don't get the point of what Destiny said. It would be a part of the expectations for his job at the workplace to vote on things with the other workers/owners of the co-op. Workers would be a lot more incentivized to give a shit about the decision making at their work if they actually owned a piece of where they labor for 8 hours a day, instead of working mindlessly and taking orders to make someone else wealthy. Anyone would rather just party and have fun with family or friends or whatever than think about their work, especially under the circumstances of most workplaces, but that's not always what you get to do.
Yeah, like coops exist in real life, and while not all are organized equally, it's not like they all fall apart into chaos or anything. It turns out people are smarter than to have literally every decision, no matter how technical, be made by literally everyone and are able to come to an understanding of who generally handles what department of work while still respecting other workers outside of there department or division or whatever. The idea that this is some weird utopian fantasy is ludicrous, as we have existing examples (even entire countries, like Yugoslavia, which while authoritarian in other aspects is still a very successful example of such an economy working and only really collapsed due to corruption and ethnic tension.)
In my country (Argentina) there are A LOT of co-ops. None of them are like Destiny imagine them to be.
We have one very famous (check Naomi Klein "The Take") called FaSinPat = Fabrica Sin Patrones (Factory without landlords) that even makes decisions in assembly without bosses.
Destiny needs to AT LEAST watch that documentary and stop talking in hypothetical scenarios, and simplified reality, like if co-ops didn't exist already in the real world or whatever
And he has a TREMENDOUS ego, he thinks everyone is stupider than him.
And he is voting for Buttigieg? Yeah thats some high IQ right there. He has the Rick and Morty Fan attitude but into politics.
There wouldn't be widgets in socialism. The focus in market socialism is that we produce for the needs of people, not the greed of people.
Joel Nohs you’re a fucking idiot for that comment. Widget is a common placeholder for thing made in general. Holy fucking shit how can you be that dumb
I like your post, I agree, I upvoted - but for gods sake (wo)man, use paragraphs!
So I became a huge fan over the last week and finally decided to hit the subscribe button and even turn on notifications bc I just really appreciate your ability to argue. I struggle to argue bc I have never been good at reading articles or dialing back my emotions (though I believe emotions are vital to our humanity and can play a part in arguments), so your channel has been really nice to find to better help me see the stances I have actualized. I really like your content and I hope to get a chance to catch all the way up on your content
This was only about 140 minutes, but felt like 60. What a fantastic exchange. Hope it becomes at least semi-regular.
I wish vaush challanged Destiny more when he said " Most people aren't that interested in politics and they wouldn't engage in a more democratic system and instead opt to stay home. " while historically we can see when people know their engagemant in the political process has an effect on policy they are much more likely to show interest in politics. The earliest example of this being ancient Athens.
Exactly. Plus people are definitely going to take more of an interest in politics when they aren't being crushed by the drudgery of wage slavery.
My fiance hates his job at Starbucks, it just sucks the joy out of his life. But if he was better paid and actually had a voice within the company, he'd be happier and actually have the mental energy to be able to more effectively participate in democracy.
Right now, he comes home so exhausted he falls asleep on the couch before he can even finished getting changed out of his uniform. Of course he's not going to be all that engaged in politics!
I'm here to help voosh and the algorithm
Vaush got politically labeled in this debate.
the sexual tension in the end was off the roof
Destiny: "i dont believe in communism because we see every day how badly people behave"
no shit under capitalism people behave badly, that's why we want to change the incentive structures away from capitalism
Destiny's speech is stuck on 150% speed.
RuSosan only slow people can’t follow
@@Cashout95
Incorrect.
RuSosan Facts*
@@Cashout95
No.
I default listen to videos on 2x speed. I had to work up from 1.5x when I got into Destiny and Vaush but they really aren't any worse than Crash Course or Yahtzee.
Destiny became a commienist in this debate.
I hope you upload the Stefan Molyneux debate, I don't want to watch it on his channel because that benefits his channel.
He said he'd upload it tomorrow but you can also just catch it with the VOD on vaush's dlive channel ( dlive.tv/p/therealvaush+GoanZCQWR ). If you don't trust my link, his user is "TheREALVaush" and the right video is under "Replays" and is the 5 hour and 44 min long vid just titled "Debating with Destiny"
Warning though, Dlive kinda runs like crap
I MISSED IT BUT NOW IT'S HERE
Destiny took a Xanax in this debate
I expected better arguments from someone Vaush respects.
I used to watch Destiny a lot, because he seemed reasonable for the most part (even if I didn't agree with everything he said sometimes). What made him interesting was that he was willing to attack both sides left or right, whether it was for bad takes, or for the sake of curiosity and learning about other peoples' views, etc. However, I do agree with Vaush that lately, he's been very anti-left Bias (particularly towards Bernie) and less charitable. Which is why he's been unwatchable now... it's like he's turned off his brain, just like all the establishment media bias (they even start sounding alike).
For example: He was so sure Bernie was going to lose and believed he had very little minority support, etc. just through reading headlines and eating up media pundit talking points and articles without any critical thinking.... He made fun of Bernie supporters being delusional about his possibility of winning, instead of actually listening to how it could be likely (so confident, that he was willing to make a huge bet against Hasan that Bernie wouldn't win). Well, Bernie did end up winning majority votes in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada (also dominating in minority support). And even when there were numerous anti-Bernie media coverage, he wasn't charitable enough to even investigate whether it was true or not... but just made a quick judgment that it was untrue. Here's a funny clip showing how Bernie is covered in the media: ua-cam.com/video/Zjj7VJpqy1w/v-deo.html -after him constantly winning, I guess it was getting harder for msm to ignore him and hide their displeasure.
Overall, it's made me question his judgment, because it's almost like he's let his ego get in the way of his thinking.. causing him to have some very bad predictions/takes.
Has he admitted yet that he was wrong about Bernie’s chances?
Scott Garriott I’m not sure, because ever since he started sounding like braindead establishment media, I’ve been too turned off to watch his content anymore. If anyone else knows, please comment.
How do you feel about your example now?
Destiny: "a lot of poor people manage to leave."
The homeless tent towns would like to have a word with you Destiny
Remember when Destiny wasn't a bad faith actor?
@ But he's not a libertarian, right? He's a social democrat, he has support for more governmental regulation of the market economy and he supports a welfare state, that's like the opposite of a libertarian.
@ I get confused sometimes because all these concepts are relatively new to me, and I'm more of a passerby viewer of this content than a an active participant.
So I hear Destiny talk about socialist democrat and I've heard Bernie referred to as democratic socialist, is there any difference between the two? Are they just synonyms?
@@SHADOWxSN1PER "Democratic socialism is also distinguished from Third Way social democracy on the basis that democratic socialists are committed to systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism whereas social democratic supporters of the Third Way were more concerned about challenging the New Right to win social democracy back to power." This is a very concise explanation basically, but they are pretty close
Its obvious coops are a better idea. The fact Destiny cannot wrap his mind around it, is frankly astonishing. Its really like he just refuses to break from this paradigm regardless.
Wow. If Destiny actually starts behaving more like this with lefties again, I *might* re-subscribe. Thank you Vaush, and well done! I mean, with Destiny actually listening, questioning, and forming arguments - he might actually convince some ppl....OR even better, be moved further "left" on some issues.
^^ and while I gave Destiny credit- jesus effin christ, he doesn't believe that fossil fuel corporations are primarily responsible for the current state of global warming???
@@joerichmar6041 Same here. He does not want us in his community anyway.
@@jstevinik3261 I honestly didn't want to unsub from Destiny, but felt like it was the only "power" I had to voice my disgust to his extremely unhinged and uncharitable anti-Kyle Kulinski video. Was the last straw for me, and apparently he's gotten worse
@@joerichmar6041 I think that I may have unsubscribed for his debate against Non-Compete. I still check out his video and listen to his debates against rightists. Aside from disliking video as well? Also, which anti-kyle video? This is testament to Destiny's position on him. Even if I grant him that Kyle is conspiratorial, it is annoying that Destiny lumps him with anti-capitalists. Personally, my main problem with Kyle is that he is too repetitive. I do not mind a conversation.
I’ll never unsubscribe from Destiny just to spite and troll him.
Destiny is now falling back to the libertarian escape hatch of taking macro problems and applying them on an individual basis, it’s disingenuous, pedantic and reductive.
This debate speaks to the overall laziness of Destiny, he doesn’t want to qualify his statements, wants to say s#!tty things and not be called out for it since “my fans know what I mean”. This is a child’s mindset
Anyone else feel like their vocabulary improves by watching these vids?
amazin
Except Vaush uses a lot of words wrong lel
@@aronchai like?
Mr. BigMeatyClaws Not going to go through the whole video looking for examples, but off the top of my head at one point he uses "inextricable" to mean something like "inevitable" when it actually means "unable to be extracted." He also uses "take umbrage" throughout to mean "disagree," when it actually means something closer to "take offense."
Bro my brain does the whole Patrick Star spilled milk thing when I listen to this stuff.
Destiny took umbrage in this debate.
"I don't want to have to qualify my statement every single time." Vaush is here to remind you that you must for some things. That's not because we think YOU are a bad actor, it's because people who don't know you will think you're a bad actor. That's life, Destiny. THAT'S LIFE. IF THIS IS TOO HARD FOR YOU, YOU SHOULD JUST END IT NOW.
He can’t logistically bring up the anti Semitic statement earnestly because he refuses to disavow his classist statement. Bringing up that Vaush said something anti Semitic could only be a valid argument if Vaush DIDNT concede that the statement was bad.
3% unemployment but I have to work 3 different jobs to barley make 2,000 and can’t even get 40 hours a week
One of the greatest political talks I've heard in a long time! Vaush you did an outstanding impeccable job and I'm so stoked for you. Much praise, because I nor many people could do what you just did