Why are Earth Alliance ships superior? | Babylon 5
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2023
- In this video, we will be finding out why are Earth Alliance ships fare more superior than other Alien government which are centauries older. Is it the Earth Alliance location, alliances, ships design, technology, and all of them.
#babylon5 #earthalliance #minbari
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Only the Minbari and Centauri ships could stand up to Earth ships.
Narn as well. G'Kar makes a point of saying "we turned their machines against them." A lot of Narn tech is captured and reverse-engineered Centauri tech.
@@DarthMcLeod As we see in later seasons, the Narn cannot really stand up to the Centauri on their own, when the Centauri are really seriously trying. The drove off the Centauri the first time because the Centauri had grown war weary and lost the will to stay and fight them. Once the Centauri got their territorial ambitions rekindled they rolled over the Narn pretty convincingly. Though the Shadows helped the Centauri a little bit, they did not actually provide that much military aid except for that one battle, at a time when the Centauri were already winning the war comfortably.
I think the Centauri could beat EA if they really wanted to, at least until the EA got Warlock Cruisers on line in large numbers. EA alone was never really a match for the Centauri, just enough of a tough nut to crack that the Centauri wouldn't want to pay the cost of what it would really take to beat them. That and the threat of other powers getting involved to help the humans thanks to the EA's diplomatic connections.
@@adamwu4565 Yeah, the Centauri were never to be underestimated. The firepower of their ships, especially for their size, is insane. What we saw the vorchans do in season 5 was scary. As you said, Earth would put up a better fight against the Centauri than against the Minbari. Sheridan himself said Humanity wasn't ready to take on either of them, and his perspective was not what they wanted to hear back on Earth, but he was right.
@@adamwu4565 I don't know. I think the damage the Shadows did just before the war broke out might have had a major impact. Look at what happened at the beginning of season one. If the Centuari really had such a major advantage over the Narn would they have tolerated things like invasions of their colony worlds?
I always look forward to these B5 updates.
I think the named reasons are right.
Additionally:
1. When they entered the galatic stage each of the other races had their "history", enemies, wars, etc.. The Humans were more or less an unwritten paper, nobody had a problem with them, everybody wanted to profit of them.
2. It is described in the RPG books (and I think they are canon? In Babylon 5 a lot of things are canon sources) that in contrast to other species the jump gates were open for others. Normally a species/alliance would just build the gates for themselves while the EA rented them out, build for other worlds, drafted treates, etc. So a lot of profit could be made, more locations and ressources of Quantium-40 could be aquired and that lead to an exponential growth. -> Explorer-class ships. So quite big numbers in the beginning.
3. Long history (thousands of years) of war (tactics) which some races don't have (e.g. the Abbai, although technology wise they are ahead, at least before the Dilgar war, were very peaceful). The Gaim (an insectoid species with hive mind unter 6(?) Queens fought a log or wars between themselves but I am not sure if this helps in space; afaik they are just aware that there is "space" cince 100 years before the start of the series. Their planet is full if clouds and there first contact with other lifes forms was afaik an invasion by the Narn - which was repelled).
4. Quite utilitarian ship design, in contrast to e.g. the Vree ("Battle Saucer"), big ships (in contrast to the Drazi, although they had capital ships I think you normally just see the Sunhawk) and dedicated battle ships (in contrast to the Brakiri which with the exception of the warrier clan(?) have just transports with weapons).
5. They bought/stole tech from other races. And in the Dilgar war they could win important battles where there was opportunity to gather tech/pieces from a lot of other races / the Dilgar and with the caputulation of Omelus (the Dilgar homeworld) they aquired additional tech and all the Quantium-40 from the Dilgar (although I am not sure if EA could keep it).
6. Pure speculation: EA was friends with the Centauri. Nobody liked the Centauri but everybody didn't want to have them as enemies. Perhaps this was some security.
Something I`ve just thought about. EA is somewhat similar to Ferengi in Star Trek. Ferengi bought the warp tech from Breen and other stuff probably too. Of course their paths were different but at the early stage kinda alike.
I've always wondered why the Earth Alliance Navy seemed to give every younger civilization except the Minbari pause, whenever they decided to show up.
On the surface, our technology in Babylon 5 seems bare bones. Few of our vessels have artificial gravity, our strongest weapons are still nuclear warheads, etc. But once they launch fighters and the weapon systems start firing? Hoo, boy....
EA Ships are tough, and hit hard.
All of the EA ships punch above their technological weight class, due to clever, creative design, and maximizing the efficiency of the technologies that they did have. The Starfury for example is the best designed fighter craft in the series out of all the races, enabling it to compete with rival fighters that have more sophisticated base technology. (Up until the Minbari Niall, which was a technological bridge too far, of course).
I think even in the far future weaponry like Nukes will remain one of the strongest & most devestating. It leaves toxic radiation, it is highly explosive & can render regions of a planet inhabital for centaries. The only thing you could make to match the power of that kinda destruction would be something like a chemical or Bioweapon. Even Anti-matter bombs would be inferior in the regard that they tend not to leave much radioactive debree meaning in all respects Nukes would be something far deadlier than plasma or particle weapons could ever be just by how if you make it a little stronger than Tsar Bomba (which the russians deliberately kept weaker than they thought possible due to the Oppenheimer idea of chain reaction) Maybe Mass drivers would be devastating but add a nuclear bomb into that & I am certain you'd destroy life in such a horrific way.
They were over spending on military. But they saw the neighborhood was not friendly. Earth ships are great in nose on engagements. They turn like pigs. That is part of the reason they have such a formidable rear facing weapon array.
So true.
We humans tend to favor headlong engagements with straightforward approach.
It's why EA Ships are designed for head-on engagements. In my original comment here, I mentions they turn too slowly, but I was wrong.
After watching a few episodes of BB5, I've come to the conclusion they actually maneuver pretty well. Not like a Whitestar of course, but they can turn effectively enough.
Certainly faster than a Star Destroyer.
But still, other races treat EA ships with some degree of respect.
For me, it's the Omega Class Destroyers always!
[ edited for grammar corrections ]
@@Strato13 I love the design of the Omega destroyers. Whenever one arrives from a hyperspace jump point I can't help but feel awed by it.
@@JH24821 Me too, they look freakin' awesome as they come out of Hyperspace with their gravity module in full spin, and how intimidating the bow looks.
Btw, speaking of the bow, have you noticed it kind of resembles the face of a Cylon Centurion? I have a theory, and it is that the new Cylon Raiders in the revamped BattleStar Galactica which are now sentient vessels, were inspired by the "face" of the Omega-Class Destroyers, which looks pretty intimidating in itself. Imagine being even a Sharlin Cruiser, and seeing one of these coming out of Hyperspace, and being glad they're on their side lol
Warlock for the win.
What I like about this video is that it explains why the Drazi's are such dicks, especially in the later years of B5 - they seem on the verge (especially after the Narn second occupation and the fall of the Centauri in Season 5) of becoming not only the next big power but also a potential problem.
It was a reaction to all the conflict they are surrounded.
Nice one Utopian Broadcast.
I'm seeing a lot of comments about the Earth Minbari War and I think people are forgetting one of the main reasons why the Minbari were winning. While yes the Minbari weapons were advanced, Earths weapons where no joke. They could destroy a Minbari warship. It was the Minbari's advanced stealth that was the main problem. Throughout the war Earth ship could not lock their weapon onto any Minbari ship. As such attacks had to be line of sight which proved to be a problem since Earth ships had no view ports to look out of. While the Minbari would still have made it to Earth in the end they would have taken more losses if not for their stealth tech. It wouldn't be till after the war, years later, that Earth would come up with a way to track stealth ships like the Minbari.
... to say that the Earth Alliance tried everything and the kitchen sink is kind of understating it. The only thing that the Earth Alliance made that could break Minbari stealth is derived from _Shadow-tech_ i.e. a 'first one' race's tech (it's called the HAL, basically it doesn't actually scan for the ship, it scans for the effects it has on hyperspace). Literally, everything else failed or required circumstances that were, by that point, impossible.
What you say about the stealth systems is absolutely true, and even without the stealth the Sharlins had a ridiculous firing range, capable of hitting other ships from a superior range. It's definitely true EA would have been able to inflict more damage on the Minbari without the stealth. The Warlock is the first ship that can match the Sharlin both in range and firepower.
*I ❤️ BABYLON 5!!!!!*
Love the video and the Halo-esque background music
Edit: you can also add that EA are superior due to human construction philosophy: the need to build with utilitarianism in mind, rather than flair or giving a cultural aesthetic to them, which is why human ships look ugly and lack the sleek designs of other races.
:)
The humans were also able to buy Centauri technology that had been captured and reverse engineered by the Narn Narn regime.
I would say the Human tech was on par with the Narn but that the Humans did a better job of incorporating it. For example the Star Furry fighter was superior to anything the Narn had because of it’s optimized design for vacuum combat.
We can actually see that many of the younger races use the Centauri kit of weapons, consisting of the red X-ray lasers and the white pulse cannons, along with various mines and missiles. The series has a sort of visual shorthand for technological levels expressed in a race's weapons technology. Every older race, the Centauri, Minbari, Draak, Streib, and of course, the First Ones, have their own, visually unique style of weapons. All the younger races use the Centauri weapon set, with a few of the older League Races like the Draazi employing some unique individualized weapons in addition to the Centauri Set. The Centauri themselves have the best version of their set. Their lasers fire the furthest and for the longest. Their pulse cannons have the most rapid rate of fire and recharge, and do the most damage on impact.
Basically, all the younger races are deploying older, outdated Centauri weapons. "Nerfed" export version stuff the Centauri are willing to sell them, or things scavenged from and reverse engineered from old Centauri left over equipment. A race "graduates" to the next level of technological accomplishment when they replace their borrowed Centauri weaponry with unique stuff they develop on their own. So the appearance of the Warlock Cruisers with their visually distinct Particle Beam Cannons, which no other race is shown to have a visually similar equivalent of (and, perhaps, the Omega-X cruisers with their Shadow-inspired blue tracking beams) is an indication of humans coming into their own as a legitimate galactic power player.
Humanity focusing on ships built around weapons?? Hellz yea.
I think you nailed it, history always repeats itself, similar to how the US got so powerful, that #2 and #3 is dead on, great job
Constant conflict and combat experience leads to better weapons and tactics because they are using and testing new ideas. In contrast sitting around does not teach you what you need. Look at US weapons vs Russian after the GWOT. Use and experience showed us what we needed...
True, but constant warfare at your door step can lead to decline in other aspects in their society. For example countries that have an ocean or a natural barrier, allows them engage in conflicts on their terms.🤷
It's not so much only that their ships are superior, but that their doctrine is superior. Them having capital ships that double as carriers and can attack from a large distance while the main blows are dealt by their smaller spacecrafts like the Starfury, which is probably the best designed fighter in the entire series, is adapting a doctrine that has been proven successful in real life to space warfare. Their capital ships are the space equivalent to mixing an aircraft carrier and a battleship, having the advantages of both kinds of vessels, and are created ex profeso for that doctrine. The only other races we see with battle doctrines which are similarly effective are the Minbari, which focus in capital ship superiority (and are extremely good at that) and the modern Centauri, which focus in a mixture of mobility and firepower that is extremely deadly (and which could be considered like the Jeune Ecole in Space). In general, what we have in all those cases is a tested and successful doctrine, with ships that have been designed to fit that doctrine like finger and nail, so it's no wonder that both the Humans and the Minbari have been shown to punch above their weight when facing against technologically superior foes. Technology only goes as far as how good you're at using it, and the Humans are probably the most adept at making the most out of their technology in B5.
The shadow technology equipped onega-x series were awesome
They looked cool, but were still limited by Earth technology.
Plz do the political and religious conflicts between Twelve Colonies (RDM) and the United Federation of Planets.... (if you can)
Plot armor
Plot armor.
I seem to recall the humans got their clocks cleaned by the Minbari, who penetrated all the way to the Sol system. That implies their infrastructrure was trashed rather thoroughly.
Actually their infrastructure was not as trashed after the war as the Minbari literally went straight to Earth. The Minbari would target military infrastructures and military ships but ignore civilian and economic infrastructures from other human colonies including shipyards. If Earth was completely annihilated then they would target any remaining humans and their remaining infrastructures. But since the Minbari suddenly surrendered during the Battle of the Line, Earth was able to rebuild their Navy and mass produce Omega Destroyers to replaced their losses.
A good comparison is the number and capability of German submarines in 1939 vs 1945.
According to canonical sources, the Minbari surgically targeted EA military installations and left non-combatanat infrastructure alone, and essentially did a "Thunder Run" straight to Earth. So, while EA's military was thoroughly trashed, their civilian and industrial infrastructure was still mostly functional, and not that many humans, overall, had been killed, as the Minbari had also, initially, left civilian population centers untouched (with the apparent plan of going back to mop them up after the military had been taken out of the picture)
One Reason because we're awesome 😅👍
🤣🤣
It comes down to humanity's most ancient talent, monkey see, monkey do, we see technology someone else has that works better than what we use, we don't screw around we copy, buy or take it. That and it took so long for humanity to encounter another race and by some miracle Earth is united at the start of the show.
So the Earth alliance is basically America before during and after World War II
Uh superior ? I recall the Minbari tearing through Earth alliance ships by the score while suffering no major defeats to say nothing of Shadow, Vorlon or any 1st ones vessels.
The Earth Alliance vessels are an engineering embarrassment, not having artificial gravity.
Dakka > Artificial Gravity
War is mankind's profession.
I would t say they were superior. The Minbari mowed through any and all Earth defenses during the Earth-Minbari War. Earth weapons could barely scratch the Minbari ships. The only way Sheridan was able to defeat one of the Minbari cruisers was to booby trap an asteroid field with thermo-nuclear warheads and bait the cruiser into the field. If anything, I’d say the Earth ships were on par with the rest of the upper-tier younger races (i.e. the Centari and the Narn). And yes, that jump to the front of the line had a lot to do with their dealings and trade with Centari and the Narn as well (Sinclair mentions early in season 1 that the Narn sold tech and weapons to Earth). None of those three were anywhere near the the Minbari though. They were light years ahead of anyone else. Remember it wasn’t until after the Earth joined the interstellar alliance that they acquired artificial gravity generators which came from the Minbari.
pretty sure that the biggest reason why the minbari were superior was because no other race could get a weapons lock on minbari ships basically meaning that every engagment ended up becoming a turkey shot for the minbari , from fan discussions of forums like spacebattles - the general consensus was that durring the E-M war if the sensor lock issue was discarded the overall war would have still been technologically been on the minbari side , however a prolonged war would have seen the humans win ; techinically draw because once minbari forces were kicked out of Earth Alliance space they would call upon the gazillions of mothballed ships they stored up just incase the shadows poped up again
@@notsogood4321 Earth ships couldn’t lock on to Minbari ships, so they couldn’t hit them. Thus Minbari ships were superior. Minbari weapons were stronger than Earth Ships. Minbari ships were more maneuverable. Minbari ships had artificial gravity generators where Earth ships required rotating sections to simulate gravity in small sections of the ship. The statement made was why were Earth’s ships superior. They weren’t. Londo, a Centari who gifted a lot of technology to Earth to help them develop said ships, himself said that even at the height of the Centari empire, when they were expanding in all directions, they never once challenged the Minbari. They were the oldest of the young races. They were fighting the Shadows while most of the other races were stuck on their own planets. It’s not a knock on Earth force ships. They jumped massively, technologically wise, in a relatively short time span when we see them at the start of the series. They’re right up there with the Centari and Narn in the upper-mid tier. But the superior ships, that top tier in regards to the younger races, belongs solely to the Minbari.
@@notsogood4321 It's not just the weapons lock issue. Minbari weapons were more accurate, had greater range, superior striking power, and faster rates of fire than anything EA had. Minbari ships were protected by a crystalline armor system that could refract away some of the incoming energy and minimize damage, allowing Minbari ships to soak up more damage than anything EA ships could do. The Minbari also had vastly superior and more powerful sensors, to the point that they could scramble EA ships' on-board computer systems just by scanning them. They also had much more precise jump point technology. The Minbari themselves were physically stronger and tougher biologically. The Minbari were simply vastly superior to EA in every imaginable way.
even with Minbari, 20 years after the humiliating Earth Minbari war, the Human technology like the Warlock class can now easily take on any Minbari ship. A Warlock's main particles beam cannon a one shot a Centauri's Vorchan class medium cruiser, even a Sharlin cannot one shot a Hyperion ith similar mass.
Heck even the Omega class can take on a Drakh ship in the first episode of the crusade.
Yeah, the Warlock can definitely one-shot a Sharlin now. Any engagement would now come down to the skill of their respective captains. If the Sharlin gets the first shot, then the Warlock is a goner, and vice versa.
@@JH24821 The Sharlin should still have at least a slight range advantage, and there's still no indication that Earth Alliance sensors have cracked the Minbari stealth. And the fighter screen of Niall's is still superior to the Thunderbolt Starfuries a Warlock would be carrying. One on one my money is still on the Sharlin. But it's certainly not a curbstomp anymore the way it was with older EA ships.
Keep in mind that the Warlock Cruiser uses a gravimetric drive that was given to EA by the Minbari as part of the deal to join the Interstellar Alliance. (It also supposedly has a tiny bit of Shadow tech in it too, a holdover from the Clark Regime's dalliance with the Shadows.) So the Warlock contains some Minbari tech in it.
Another factor we can't dismiss is the possibility that the Minbari have or will upgrade their Sharlins too. They got some Vorlon tech for the White Star project. There's no reason they couldn't put some of that stuff into their newer Sharlin's, moving forward.
@@adamwu4565 I agree with your points. The Warlock has been a huge leap forward for Earth's military but the Sharlin is still the more refined and versatile ship. The Warlock is more like a brute-force approach. You make a great point about the Minbari potentially upgrading their Sharlins with Vorlon tech. I've seen other people react with "Yeah, but Earth has Shadow tech on top of Vorlon tech" and while that is true they seem to forget Shadow tech is heavily frowned upon among the Younger Races and EA could never use it openly without antagonizing everyone else.
@@JH24821 Per the canon sources I am aware of, EA only retained a very small bit of Shadow Tech, that they barely understand how to use. Most of the Shadow Tech that the Shadows gave the Clarke regime was lost when Clarke fell. Either that or it had a disturbing tendency to go Lovecraftian Body Horror on anyone trying to use it who doesn't know EXACTLY how to do it properly, and with the Shadows having vamoosed beyond the Rim, that information isn't exactly forthcoming anymore. Whereas the Vorlons were a little bit more open with the tech they shared with the Minbari, and essentially gave them more and safer stuff.
The Earth Minbari war changed everything, their ships could do well against other younger races but against the Minbari they where no match. After the war they designed ships that where far more powerful with a chance that they would be a better match against the Minbari, but also took steps for accidents like the first contact with the Minbari not to happen again by creating the babylon station.
Humans also seem to be the only race that are constantly updating their designs and bring out new models of ships. Where as the older spacefaring races perfect a design and stick with it for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Lore wise, was not the problem that the Minbari scanners overloaded the Earth ships systems / targeting scanners, hence EA ships were almost always fighting blind.
@@sciencefliestothemoon2305 Alsothe Minbari havd some sort of stealth technology that during the war Earth could never crack.
Lets just say that the Minbari ships generated an electromagnetic field that jammed Earth Alliance warships and sensors, including their jump engines.
I have 1 issue with your synopsis, that being you seem to forget the Earth - Mimbari war. Most of the Earth Fleet was destroyed and the Mimbari made it to Earth.
Narn Commander. Our Ships are well ballanced. Earth Commander: Far to less Fire Power to our Ships. Centauri Commander: Our Ships are far superior armed. Earth Commander: Far too less armored its a Glassss Canon. Minbari Commander: all of your ships are inferior to our ships you can not compare to them. Earth Commander yeah they are impressive but not unbeatable our Nukes have a different opinion. (Earth Commander looks to the piece of the old Minbari Flag Ship on the wall.)
Funny, I remember several EA ships deciding to "be somewhere else" when 2 Sharlins and a White Star wanted to play with them...
@@saalkz.a.9715 largely because the Earth Alliance couldn't hit them and the Sharlin is still one of the top-tier beat sticks (though the Minbari were quite impressed with the Nova class dreadnaughts that they made their own copy of the design) in known space outside of the Shadows and Vorlons.
and here I thought it was Human centric propaganda broadcast weekly among Human colonies...
The reality is, earth ships weren't better in many cases. they were on par with some, and still well behind others, for example they lacked inertial compensation and anti-gravity.
Now this said, earths first battle was against dilgar and they got help from the centarii on that one... next was... the mimbarii... they got their asses handed to them BUT because they "officially won" because the mimbarii surrendered, it always gave pause to the other races, what did the humans have... that scared the Mimbardii so much.. that made them surrender.
that... acted almost as a bluff, now with their ties to 2 races.. they began their new ships. their new destoyers... and these were bigger and more heavly armed then a lot of other races ships... and this comes from earth being able to put more resourses into their navy then a lot of nations.
Meaning of offense, I really don’t buy it.
First of all, when you’ve got a situation, where there are frequent and continual wars going on, military technology tends to develop much faster because the inferior stuff gets you killed. So there is a massive drive to develop superior stuff. The Earth alliance, having no real conflicts between first contact with the Centauri and the Dilgar war, a period of about 70 years, would not really lend itself to a rapid development of military technology.
If you want a real world, example, look at how quickly military technology developed between 1900 and 1950. And while technology continued to increase militarily, after that point, mostly in anticipation of a Third World war, which never happened, it has slowed down considerably since the end of the Cold War.
Secondly, JMS has said that the Earth got involved in the Dilgar war primarily because it wanted to make a name for itself on the Galactic stage. From what I can remember, earth entered the war pretty late, knowing they have the resources to turn the tide of battle.
Thirdly: earth weapons were not really all that good. We assumed we were absolute bad asses because of our role in the Dilgar war, And then, absolutely positively got our asses kicked in the Minbari war. Remember: earth lost every single engagement during the war, with the exception of the black star incident. And earth lost 30,000 or 40,000 ships at the battle of the line. The battle itself seems to have only lasted an hour or two, And only a few hundred humans survived.
We do see a lot of tough ships Babylon five, but these are all ones that were developed after the war, during what is repeatedly stated to be the result of a massive military buildup. While earth ships are certainly much stronger in the 2050s than they were in the 2040s, they are still no match for the Mimbari. At the battle of Babylon five we see two Omega class destroyers immediately runaway rather than risk a conflict with Minbari ships.
By the time of B5 earth ships are pretty clearly superior to Narn ones, and about equal to Centauri ones, but clearly inferior to Vorlon and Minbari technology.
I owe you an apology for the very large post I left here yesterday. So it's gone.
It's also a case of the humans not being dialled into the prevailing paradigm of ship design.
They were ured to not having luxuries like gravity generators. So they built their ships around this - especially the Star Fury. The pilot "stands" but takes the g-force across their body. The offset thrusters allow for ludicrously yaw rates. The other races' fighters are based around atmospheric platforms and must have artificial gravity if they are to match the Star Fury's acceleration.
Eg, say a Narn Frazi fighter could do 12g except the mass of its gravity generators takes it down to 9g then atmospheric capability (wings, heatshield) takes it down to 5g. The gravity generators are necessary because with feet-forward in an atmospheric layout the gs are always negative. Whereas the Star Fury has a primitive engine only capable of 10g, but it outmatches the Narn fighter in space.
The Narn don't have ArtGrav. Their biology is surprisingly better suited for long-term 0-G conditions than humans.
In other words just like U.S. after WW2.
Commenting before watching to answer the question...they aren't. They might tie for 4th after the vorlons, mimbari, centauri, and seem on par with the narns.
??? They weren't. IIRC during the show it was stated most of Earths advances came from trade with the Narn during and after the Earth-mimbari war. So that put them on par-ish with the Narn. Then during the shadow war Earth inherited Shadow organic technology.
No, it was buying, stealing, or even graverobbing whatever they could get their hands on and bringing bolt cutters whenever the tech they wanted was bolted down. Interceptors were the reverse engineering of an alien defense system, for example.