Babylon 5 Lore : Earth Alliance - The Chaotic Neutral Government
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- What's up Lore Masters,
Today we'll be discussing Babylon 5 lore and the Earth Alliance specific. The EArth-Minbari War, Dilgar War and much more.
Reference cited: efni.org/Dilgar_War.htm
Earth Alliance: babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Earth_...
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Alh, yes. The mimbari. Hypocritical space elves.
"Sheridan is evil because he nuked our ship. Never mind the fact said ship was lying in ambush for rescue ships to maximize casualties. Ambushes are only dishonorable when others do it"
They probably took their cues from the most honorable Klingons and their honorable tactics of using honor-bound cloaks to honorably kill infidels with blinding honor from behind.
What I loved about B5 was that none of the races (save for the ancients) were monoliths. The Minbari, the Centauri, the Narn... they showed the same petty, shortsighted, tribal behavior that humans consistently display.
Yeah Nuking them when they are trying to murder your helpless ship in a state of distress is so bad (sarcasm) - Sheridan was so polite to not point that out more often.
The warrior caste was hipocrital about that.. even the Minbari themselves recon that (Lenier, Delen and Lenon stated that along the series/movies, the grudge was just warrior caste being butthurts crybabies)
Sounds more like Klingon HIPOCRACY!
In Babylon 5, there is no truly good faction. Even the alliance can and has made great sacrifices for the greater good.
Just like RL. Any nation you can look into its past to see blood on its hands.
Point of order: the EA funded Babylon stations 1-4, but after B4 disappeared wasn't about to spend more tens of billions on another one. The Minbari, recognising B4 for what it was and reading the 'prophesies' of Valen, stepped in and offered to fund the construction of B5 in exchange for chosing the first Commander. They chose Sinclair, whom they'd captured at The Battle Of The Line and wanted to keep a close eye on since he was carrying a Minbari soul
(Delenn left The Grey Council and became Ambassador to fullfill this role).
When Sinclair was sent to Minbar as Ambassador, the EA chose the much more agressive Sheridan aka Starkiller as his replacement, to the annoyance of the Minbari, despite the *raging hypocracy* of their opinion of him.
Edit: replaced one instance of 'Sinclair' with 'Sheridan'.
Sheridan was a fighter, but I'd hardly call him aggressive. His performance against the Blackstar was an act of desperation, as I recall.
He doesn't really resort to combat if he can avoid it. I recall watching a few years back and noting just how incredibly... wholesome Sheridan really was.
Might want to edit that reply. You said Sinclair rather than Sheridan. But yes there is a lot of pissing and moaning by the Minbari Warrior caste about their ships and stuff. Bunch of self-righteous pricks honestly. Bitching and moaning because he used a bomb to kill their ship, when they were coming BACK to finish the job of killing the ships and their crews. Though I didn't know the Minbari stepped in to pay for B5 to be built.
Well it was the religious/cleric caste that pushed for B5. The warrior caste didn't give a hoot and wanted to slag more humans because they were easy wins. Worker caste -- I don't think they really cared. If it was any ship but the Black Star/Drala Fi, the Minbari probably wouldn't have resisted against Sheridan as much but since it was their vaunted flagship, they never forgave or forgot.
Yeah the Warrior Caste really didn't honestly give two shits, until they got shamed into joining the conflict. Then they reverted to civil war because they could. In the whole mess It was the Worker Caste who got the shaft of it all. Hence why when they recreated the Grey Council the Worker Caste got the lion share of the seats since well they were honestly the forgotten ones in the whole ordeal. Though yeah I do feel that Sheridan was justified in his feelings. It was war and war makes people do things. So he decided that we know how they are going to act so lets use that against them and give them a bloody nose for their troubles.
Honestly they were only butt hurt over the whole thing as honestly they had gotten complacent in their dealings and such. Which is why Naroon(Or however you spell his name.)is such an interesting and multi-faceted character.
The thing is Sheridan was also foretold in the letters given to Sinclair and Delenn. Kosh and Delenn knew up to the events of S3E16-17 War Without End 1&2. It was hinted by Lennier several times that "She's destined for another" hinting that he had an idea that her husband would be a Human tied to the Shadow War. There's also the fact that in those letters specific people were chosen to go through the timeloop (Ivannova, Marcus, Lennier, Delenn, Zathras, Sinclair and Sheridan). In other words Sheridan and Sinclair were already predetermined to be stationed on B5 because they were in a cyclical loop at least until the closing of sector 13.
Yes, B5 great show that was hugely underrated. Best Sci-fi franchise that doesn't have the word Star in the title.
Mike surlygentleman Walton; imo that’s a very good way to put it. I was going to say that B5 was my favorite series after Deep Space 9. Other people would bring up other Star Trek series as their favorites. You summed it up perfectly for a Trek fan.
Firefly and Farscape are right up there as well. But B5 is definitely the best sci-fi series ever. Given how great BSG was, that's saying a lot.
Best TV based sci-fi franchise. But if the Battletech universe gets a live action show one day, well hehehe, Game of Thrones will pale in comparison.
@@Ni999 no one ever brings up farscape. +1 to you.
@@awesomemccoolname7111 You're both fellow Farscape fans? I... I was beginning to think I was alone.
The story of the Earth Mimbari war is a mystery for pretty much most of the episodes. If I remember correctly you don't get the full story about it until you get into the movies.
Babylon 5 was so amazing. I really think I prefer it to Trek sometimes :)
The stories seem more prepared and laid out, the acting and FX ... not so much..
Lore Reloaded Yeah, the acting gets better as you get into season 2. The overall story was laid out in advance to last 5 seasons. Sadly, they rushed the story to wrap by the end of season 4, so when they got a 5th season they had to come up with some new stories.
Babylon 5 was a five year long miniseries format with episodes (thus the 5). The MaxiSeries. Every other episode (at first) told the story arc like a novel, then by season 4 every episode. It was an experimental form in the 90s in the US/Can/UK.
Star Trek 1966 was completely episodic like the Simpsons is today and Gunsmoke/Perry Mason/Bonanza of the 50s. Desilu only did episodic work. The situation establishing the characters is already set before the series began, and every episode resets at the epilogue. Doesn't matter who dies, doesn't matter if a war almost started, doesn't matter if the ship was shot to hell, doesn't matter if they met a god, doesn't matter if the ship was altered to achieve Warp 57 by some advanced race. The next show would have the same crew, on the same Enterprise that can go no more than Warp 9 and had limited shielding. This allows the episodes to be shown in any order, as they were. That only caused a problem in 1966 with two episodes, and only due to visual set dressing and costumes.
TNG began that way, as did DS9. Since DS9 was plagiarized from the Bab5 pitch script, it would quickly try to build to the miniseries format. They had to be careful though due to the lawsuit settlement. TNG had become somewhat miniseries styled a season after Borg contact, using Q as the My Favorite Martian magic character "chorus".
I like both, but the year(s) long maxiseries has become the norm due to DVD sets and binge watching.
Random Gameuser42. Since they unexpectantly actually got a season five, they got to use that season as an epilogue. They opted for utilizing the stories of Europe and America licking their wounds after WWI and trying to build a modern, post colonial world. That rich landscape of fiction, adventure, personal and social conflict that was 1919-1940.
As do I.
Oh He's doing B5 now - I look forward a whole new stunning array of miss-pronunciations !
Cold.
Apropos, but Cold...
In order to complement your misspelling?
It makes me happy to no end that you are covering Babylon 5. I love that show!
If only crusade had a second season :(
Hell, if Crusade had been aired in order.....
B5 was one of the best Sci-Fi shows of all time. Yes I love Star Trek and Star Wars, but B5 will always be my favorite. Maybe because their physics followed Newtons Laws not Hollywood fantasy. To watch Starfuries strafing a target was just epic. I am so looking forward to this series.
Nice, finally some B5.
If I remember correctly, I believe the Dilgar were driven to aggressive behavior against other worlds because they knew of their star's impending supernova. Not sure if this is actually mentioned in the show, I may be remembering wrong.
I'm still thinking the Sun of the Dilgar system was tampered with by either the Vorlons or Shadows.
Yes, my guess, the Vorlons. The Markabs, also die off, which is convenient
I always thought the Shadows handled them.
The Dilgar seemed to be a race that would have allied with the Shadows, if either of them did it the Volons would have been the likely culprits
Either the Dilgar knew their sun was going to go nova (despite being too small for that), or the LoNAW did, or... there's something out there that can blow up stars. :o
Babylon 5 Earth is the Chief Miles O'Brien of scfi Earths. It must suffer for some reason.
I don't think Deleen is as bad as Mrs O'Brien.
She's like Amy Pond in Doctor who she's someone you show to your daughters and say "Don't do this".
Oooo Babylon 5, probably my favorite Sci-Fi series. Crusade looked like it would be a decent spin off of the series as they searched for a cure for the plague. Too bad it was cancelled, another interesting series to look into if you haven't already is Red Dwarf.
Glad to see you doing some B5 stuff! Can't wait for more.
Really happy to see you doing B5 videos!
Canada is a great place, so of course we would be a founding member lol
Shae Kurlelo just remember B5 was made in the 1990's look at all of the other countries now.
"Canada apart of an empire?!?!" is a pretty dumb crack considering that Canada was/is part of the British empire. Sometimes I wonder if Lore Master should spend sometime learning about real life lore lol.
@@SMFCNA Not to mention being one of the best countries in the world to live, for like the past 30+ years, while all its contemporaries and fellow Earth Alliance members are currently tearing themselves apart at the seams, and the US in particular is essentially Idiocracy when this video came out.
Don't you have maple syrup to drink go on get
@@SMFCNA He will, he is still verry young. I was 56 when I found out, that there is an european absolutist monarchy in a state of horrible cold war with a peaceful democratic central european nation, despite my grandma a a lot of relatives are from this peaceful nation and even I speak their language. But I had no idea, that when you have a passport from grandma's country(the first real democracy in central europe), some almost invisible empire will not allow you cross its borders and will consider you the worst and most dangerous person in the world. We are still learning.
Wow! You're taking on a big one here
Looking forward to it. Keep up the great work!
I feel like you're on the mark about how the Earth-Minbari War shaped human attitudes.
Aside from that, I'd call Earth Alliance Lawful Neutral leaning to Lawful Evil.
Dude, if the _Alliance_ is "Lawful Evil", dafuq you call the damn _Vorlons???_
@@seand.g423 Unless you are specifically talking about Clark I can't see how you could call it evil, and while he was in control for much of the series it isn't really fair to make the judgement based just on him.
@@suchiuomizu
Yes it is.
From all the hate Sherridan got from people who stood by and allowed war crimes to happen, to the fact that even during Crusade EarthForce was willing to use force to exploit its own colonies.
2:38 A star going supernova is something that is extremely noticeable. No one would have not known. The process lasts tens of thousands of years.
I was going to give you a like, but that Canada burn...
Agreed. I heard that and was like: "....heeeeey, wait a minute!"
Ya Canada has lots of natural resources, is huge and despite its many problems is still a very wealthy and realitivly peaceful country that exports ISIS to Syria.
As a Canadian, I have to side with Lore Reloaded on this one :)
CanuckGod Guess we found the Québecer :p
+Ranadinn Born in Winnipeg, live in Calgary. But we Westerners do tend to be a little more cynical of Ottawa than the usual :) To be fair, though, I'll always support Canada in hockey.
I love babylon 5, such an underrated gem of a series. I rewatch it often, the movies and spin-off series "Crusade" are also worth enjoying. I hope to see more related content in the future.
I just watched most of babylon 5 so I'm going through and watching all your videos on it. More please!
Savage against Canada... watch out, we have moose and hockey sticks
The earth/Minbari war started at the exact same time as the federation/Klingon war in STD.
and both were started by idiotic behavior. At least nobody in the Federation got a medal afterwards (Capt. Jankowski was hailed as a hero when he returned to Earth, before the shit hit the fan -- based on the novelization of "In the Beginning". Ended up eating his own gun)
That scene got deleted from the movie, it was too graphic supposedly. I do agree the guy deserved the bullet for being an arrogant cocky SOB, who killed millions of his fellow soldiers in a unwinnable war.
Barry Bend Star Trek has ripped off B5 for years.
Hell, DS9 was the same as B5.
This has been proven over and over again
It started about a decade earlier, not in the 2250s.
Earth-Minbari War started around 2246. STD's stupid never mentioned before war started 2256.
Can't wait to watch your battle breakdowns on this. B5 has the greatest space combat of any sci-fi series.
NICE! One of the best sci fi series ever written, covering a variety of unique themes! I LOVE Babylon 5!
Nice, This is my favourite TV show without a doubt. Can't wait to see more.
The Dilgar War is covered in depth in the "Dilgar War" scourcebook for the "Babylon Wars" Tabletop.
Assigning an RPG clustering title of Chaotic Neutral to anything in B5 will whitewash most of the subtlety in this extremely well crafted universe. EA is, however, the most prolific and reliable practitioner of realpolitik - so perhaps chaotic neutral is the best way to describe it. Still, because of the realistic no-win politics in B5, EA very much aligned itself with evil when there was nothing to be gained from fighting it, especially when they felt stretched too thin with the evil too far away - the prime example being the non- aggression pact with the Centauri when the latter invaded Narn
that was dude tio the President regieme. I see the EA has good jsut with a dark phase
I always felt that the EA was planing on betraying the Shadows. Hence the fact they hid a ship from them, and built their hybrids. They weren't doing it for the greater good, and it probably would have ended badly for them but that was my take.
I think that's the point of the Babylon 5 in general. Absolutes are just plain terrible, be it from the Vorlons or Shadows and that at the end of the day, being too..... not knowing your limits is a weakness. The EA screwed around with a lot of tech, most of which either got away from them or caused them problems back down the line.
An entire class of their main war fighting fleet had to be replaced for being made with a surprising percentage of Shadow tech. Enough Shadowtech that they didn't entirely lose their Shadow nature.
Then again, we see how they were also willing to rewrite history to suit their needs, so knowing your limits is a big thing.
I believe what you are saying is accurate. I would also like to add that for humanity it was the 'wild west' era of their being in the galaxy. There was no UFP to help guide them, the older races showed either a lack of concern for the younger ones (Minbari and Vorlon), or were as flawed as us (Centari)
Centauri were only (only) a few hundred years ahead of us technologically, and were even more petty and infighting than humans.
And that's one hell of an achievement.
There's a really good fan fiction book about the earth-dilgar war. I strongly recommend reading it even though it can be unsettlungly gruesome. In it there was nothing wrong with the Dilgar star, although the environment was pretty trashed by supporting the war. It was implied that the Shadows were looking for acolytes and had been eyeing the Dilgar. When they had failed the Shadows blowtorched their star.
I wish I could like this video twice.
I never thought about your insight on the Mimbari War’s effect on Earth Force. On first thought, it sounds right. I discussed it with Dad, he isn’t convinced. Perhaps a breakdown on that insight could both be informative and interesting.
Looking forward to more B5 Videos! I always liked this universe
Very cool seeing my Earth Alliance logo here. Every once in a while I get to see my B5 and Star Trek artwork being used on UA-cam fan sites.
I found this as apart of , what I thought, was an official website.. shall I take it down and use something else? Want to give me your site to to give accreditation?
Hi Lore, nope its mine but you are welcome to use it. Please credit www.artintensity.com
I'll get that updated! It was sincerely never my intent to take your work with out credit (or not even ask, I apologize)
No worries, you're good!
Thanks for the Series about the EA, very good.
Its about time u got to b5 lol
The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars is my favourite TV Sci-Fi episode of all time.
I like this Earth Alliance, it is similar to the United Earth in Star Trek Enterprise.
I’m happy you started doing B5. I grew up on this show.
For someone who hasn't watched it all the way through to the end, You've got a good grasp. B5, in my opinion was a an excellently written story with major arcs and "Backdoors" in case actors wanted out. It was intricate and for once mirrored no events on Earth itself. This is what led to shows like the Expanse and game of thrones.
It should be noted that the Earth Alliance government didn't really echo the way it's common citizen felt. It's how the Elites felt. The common person could and did get along and in cases marry aliens.
I think that it was put best by Dylynn. "Wherever humanity goes, it creates communities."
Glad to see the start of a new series of videos especially about a now "lesser" known franchise. I remember watching it when it originally aired in the '90's. It's a gem of the plethora of '90's scifi TV (3 Treks, B5, Stargate, Space Above and Beyond, etc) At the time the CG effects were awesome but have not aged well (same for Space Above and Beyond). The best parts of B5 were seasons 2 thru 4 and the TV movie "In the Begining" which covers the Earth-Minbari War.
That was a low blow against Canada! Now say you're sorree!
Howard Gleason #fuckcanada
Do say that you're sorry. Canadian War Mooses are no joke.
War mooses? I'm more worried about the Lazer Bears!
Oh no Canada has completed training Laser Bears.
_Apologize. Now._
That's _sorree eh_ ok.
I don't know if you've made the video on the Dilgar War yet, but there is a fantastic fanfiction that goes in depth.
It is of course, just a fanfiction and therefore, a whole lot of speculation, and it's also 104 chapters long. Maybe interesting to talk about?
Up to you of course.
Excellent - B5 flew a bit under my radar at the time, but I'm looking forward to this breakdown!
Man, with TNG, DS9, B5, SG-1, Space: Above & Beyond, SeaQuest DSV, Cowboy Bebop, Red Dwarf, the X-Files... The 90's were something else in sci-fi!
Enjoyed the B5 content.
Sweeeeeet thanks so much lore reloaded finally a well made series about B5. If you are looking to watch it try prime it has the entire series. Can you please talk about faction ships as well?
Valin was the one of the most famous Minbari during the First Shadow War. Valin had came from the future with a gift which was Babylon 4. Valin was the first Commander of Babylon 5. One of Valin's decrees had prohibited Minbari from killing Minbari. The base of this decree was Valin's knowledge of the Earth-Minbari War and its evidential outcome. The Minbari had the belief that the souls of the dead Minbari will be reincarnated into the next generation. Somehow according to the Minbari beliefs, many Minbari souls were not reincarnated. Likely before the Earth-Minbari War, the Minbari had likely a problem with a decline in their population. This decline according to Minbari religion was a result of many Minbari souls being reincarnated as humans. Valin's decree of preventing Minbari from killing Minbari became a very important Law for the Minbari. This law will later prevent the Minbari from committing total genocide. Strangely after the War, the Minbari and the humans will become friends and allies. For the Minbari, the humans were fellow Minbari.
Good to see. :)
"For the next ten years... one question would obsess a hundred worlds: "Why did the Mimbari Surrender at the Battle of the Line? On the very EVE of victory.""
Became a subscriber because of this video. There's some things I don't agree with, but the world needs more B5.
"…and the sky was full of stars, and every star was an exploding ship - one of ours."
Just thinking about the Battle of the Line still sends a chill down my spine. The way Londo tells it In the Beginning is just amazing.
If I remember, the Shadow "death cloud" didn't devastate Earth. The Drakh unleashed the plague as a backup plan when their initial attack (which was meant to destroy the planet) failed.
Terra prime forever!!!! Oh, wrong series, sorry...my bad...😅😅
Systems Commonwealth another star trek ripoff of B5
The Systems Commonwealth wasn't part of Star Trek. That was the Kevin Sorbo show. Starts with an A.
Just because it was originally meant to be part of star trek (correct me if i'm wrong), it doesn't automatically make it star trek.
Not a horrible series, but a bit too episodic and disjointed. The writers really fall off the wagon in the continuity department from time to time.
HAIL ZEON! OH shit wrong story😂
Hey Lore Reloaded I subscribed to your channel because I'm a Trekkie and that your thing but I'm a big Sci-Fi head so I always love when you do lore outside of Star Trek {Seriously, for me anyways Star Trek was like a gate way drug to this sci-Files shit!!!!} But only the most astute connoisseurs a Sci-Fi know of Babylon 5 and as a fan of both Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 as a sci-Files head and even learning of their tumultuous beginnings these shows did something that was different at that time let's try the sci-fi trope of a space station sure it was done before but at that time no one was trying to do it and honestly no has both shows in their right never mind the alleged plagiarism issues had phenomenal story lines I'll tell anyone this Lore Reloaded, if you never watched Babylon 5 you've been deprived, but at the same time welcome for me I feel fortunate to have and experienced two great sci-Files shows on space stations deserve it of their names respectively but for those who never enjoyed the journey I well always say you've been deprived and welcome the journey you're about to take is awesome and I wish I could be there to watch you experience it. But thank you for this video on Babylon 5 one of my favorite sci-fi shows of the 90's and a pillar of my childhood entertainment although not great during its end, but trust me you're gonna love it.
Bro you haven't even watch the show in its entirety? How can you make this video in good faith without even knowing the entirety of the materials... That's kinda disappointing. :(
TJM yeah, gotta watch seasons 1-4 (5 is skippable. Thanks TNT/WB).
Agreed
Whilst I agree that S5 is rather poor I personally cut the writers/producers some slack in that they were mucked about by being told "No season 5"...till the very end of Season 4, leaving them very little time - still some good episodes though. Sometimes you have to wonder if network executives are paid based on gross stupidity. Mind you, In the Begining, Thirdspace, River of Souls and A Call to Arms should be on that watch list too ;)
Season 4 would have ended with Sheridan's capture. Byron or someone like him would have come aboard in mid season 4. JMS lost many notes for season 5's early half.
And yes i would love more b5 content
Glad your talking B5 for some reason I thought you were doing a episode by episode break down. But this is good to. Also Canada the great empire... nice ring to it. Lastly at least babylon 5 era the earth force couldn’t take out minbari ships. I think until at least the new ships in crusade and of course the hybrid ships of the alliance (rangers) but those were only partially earth related
During the Earth Minbari war, EA ships couldn't win, however (as far as I remember) the cruisers after it were designed and built to kill Minbari capital ships. Nothing fancy, just brute force.
From semi official sources, the reason why the Dilgar launched their invasion of the LoNAW was because they knew their sun was going to go nova. There's even some possibility that the Dilgar survived in a small number of secret and far flung colonies. At any rate, decent video.
I've watched all of B5 and while it's been awhile you're not wrong regarding Earth Force's attitude after the Earth / Mimbari War.
The Earth Alliance Leadership would make many bad decisions due to Earth's near defeat at the hands of Minbar. I don't want to spoil anything but the willingness of certain people to work with the Shadows, as well as the formation of certain militant groups could be attributed to the events surrounding the Earth/Minbari War.
Good video.
Correction about the Deathcloud attack on Earth.
The Deathcloud is/was the Shadow's planet killer and could fire missiles that would in fact turn a planet into seemingly molten slag.
But the attack on Earth was a failure but the Drakk (Unsure about the spelling) was prepared with a secondary plan the virus that was deployed.
Depends on which (I assume you meant series, not season finale) you mean. The "series finale" that ended season 4 (that pushes the story 500 years into the future - the 'close tab' for the series) or "Sleeping in light" the true series finale - which actually wraps up the saga. The (sucktastic, worse episode of the entire series) one was forced on them due to the show facing cancellation at the end of season 4. Literally at the last minute, TNT announced they would pick it up for season 5 - Which BTW, explains the cast changes for that season (and the subsequent TV movies).
I wish we had gotten to see the story as JMS wrote it, as it were they played games and forced him to rush through the Vorlon/Shadow war.
I would bet the Vorlon blew up the star. Remove the elixir of immortality. Just as Kosh had that female killed and explained the younger races weren't ready for immortality.
"Canada was a part of the founding of a great empire? Wow, this really is fiction."
Oof, most damaging and unprovoked attack since the first battle of the Earth-Minbari War...
OMG I just got a notification and it said B5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. (thats what i get for not watching for a while)
You forgot 2 more The Narns and Vorlons.
Ah, yes... the Vorlons... JJ Abrams' favorite puppeteering calamari...
"And so it begins....."
As Captain John "Nuke Em Woohoo Star Killer" would say... "B5 Lore.... about time"
The Earth Alliance advanced at an insane rate technologically, With in 50 years of getting Jump Gate tech they surpassed races that had space travel for 700 years + prior to the Dilgar War (a video of a Drazi trader implied to be from the 15 century seen in Season 5)
Looking forward to more B5 lore... Good presentation
Yeah! More Babylon 5 Lore.
I like for Babylon 5! Awesome show, re-watching on Amazon Prime right now!!!
The Centari didn't give Earth jump gate technology, they intended too in exchange for Africa as a colony, Earth Gov negotiated them down to Australia instead but the Narns partially out of fear but more so out of spite just gave Earth jump gate technology for free.
@LoreReloaded not a patreon, but wanted to make a request if possible? In the course of this series, could you examine how the other powers viewed the Minbari after their surrender to Earth? It's always been weird to me that the Earth Alliance were the operators of the Babylon projects, when it would seem logical that the Minbari, with their long held status of a powerful yet non-antagonistic species should have been the ones to do so, kind of like the US in both the League of Nations and the UN. I can only surmise that this reduced role was due to their surrender, therefore being seen as a lesser power in the eyes of the other galactic powers, but since they were still a militarily powerful society, this supposition becomes suspect. Thanks for any consideration you give to this request and keep up the great Lore.
You've kind of proven it by stating that the US started up the LON and UN, given that the US is among the most antagonistic of nations in modern human history. The US wanted absolute control and it backfired on them, unlike the Earth Alliance who built the Babylon stations because they were nearly hunted to extinction. You are right about one thing though, much like the US, the Minbari did almost entirely wipe out a civilisation, so they have that in common.
Whoa major spoiler alerts! Clark and shadows. Well done though on the research. I've commented that you haven't done enough in the past and you have improved.
I try. B5 is /far/ /far/ less convoluted
B5? This makes me very happy. 😀
Stay tune ladies and gentlemen on the next Lore Reloaded
We live for the one, we die for the one.
WOOT! More B5!
Your point that the Earth Alliance always mimics its respective allies is interesting. It kind of plays into the whole "humans are bridge builders" idea that Delenn mentions at one point. Babylon 5 already downplays the Planet Of Hats trope compared to other Sci-Fi shows like Star Trek, but in case of the humans, it's like they have no Hat at all. They simply adapt to the people they surround themselves with. That's an interesting idea, I think. Much about Babylon 5 seems to be about how individuals and even whole civilizations are shaped by the people they surround themselves with.
One of the earliest websites devoted to Babylon 5 was Midwinter.com. This was back in the early 90's. I used to read something called the Lurker's Guide. It could be useful. On a very sad note, several of the main cast have passed away.
Midwinter.com is an EXCELLENT resource for the entire show, including writer's notes and forum correspondence.
Xenophobia in the Earth Alliance makes sense, in the movie the Gathering when Commander Sinclair and Ambassador Dellen met in the garden where she gave him info, I'm paraphrasing but Sinclair said that some people would have them "shot for this."
Have you thought about doing a similar examination of the other major races in the series? The Narn, Vorlons, and Shadows?
Love B5. It's one of my favorite Sci-fi shows.
One the greatest and HARDEST TO FIND scifi franchise shows. An one the originals too ironically so finding it shoulda been easy. This needs to come FULL SERIES to providers like Hulu and Netflix.
The political and historic background is what Harlan Ellison (concept consultant) and several other Star Trek TOS season one writers had in mind. GR was vague at first about Earth, the colonies, the Vulcans and thus NEVER wanted the Enterprise to see home. In the original ST greater universe you get glimpses:
There is no UFP, invented later and given to the writers bt GR.
The USS Enterprise is a "Starship" in the "Fleet" from United Earth (same as in Forbidden Planet).
It had been on colonial patrol but under Kirk's command it got a new mission to go into deep space and investigate. It would alternate between that job and military space patrol, but the Enterprise was the ship way out there on the Rim.
Vulcan, though very scientifically advanced, had been conquered. It is implied that Earth Force liberated it, possibly from the Romulans or another force. It is likely Vulcan gave/sold Earth technology. However Z. Cochrane of Alpha Centauri colony, a human, invented Warp.
The Romulan War was a Earth/Romulan war. No UFP existed in that script. The Romulans were a tight empire of xenophobes that never strayed far after the war. China or North Korea. The Klingons were a rival spreading empire like United Earth (which is really the US) courting planets in each other's turf.
Earth Alliance government officials were somewhat dictators. Very threatening and used to bullying their way. Not the Utopia Federation Earth of later lore. Starship captains were great sometimes, madmen other times and weak spineless men other times.
The colonies had quite a checkered recent past. Tarsus IV experienced a genocidal eugenics Earth Governor.
Ellison imagined and wrote organized crime on Earth and inside Starfleet as well as drug dealers and abuse. GR took that out of a script because he had retooled the show midway through season one.
Starfleet still had firing squads in the Ellison script, and Earth (later the UFP) still had penal colony planets (Scotty was threatened with one by an Ambassador for insubordination). That made it in.
So the dark Federation or Earth of STD and JJ Trek does have some basis in original Star Trek, until GR and DF tidyed everything up to make the UFP and Earth a utopia.
It is likely some of this gritty story made it to JMS via Ellison and others. Babylon 5 is closer to pure 1950s-70s literary Science Fiction than Star Trek or Star Wars ever was. JMS being the credited writer of most of the episodes, kept a much tighter continuity in five years, than GR or Doctor Who could in just one year, much less 50.
I always upvote b5 content
It's about damn time you did B5.
Little correction: The Minbari did not bypass most of the outer colonies.
When they came close to Earth they bypassed a few of the innermost places (Mars being the only one being called out specifically). And considering that the bypassing of Mars and the other places within the solar system is mentioned as a change of tactics on the Minbari's part, it is implied (though never outright said) that the Minbari were systematic and thorough in their wiping out of the other colonies and outposts.
Regarding the fleet size: During the TV show Captain Sheridan says either in the 2nd or 3rd season that Earth Force still hadn't recovered completely from the Earth Minbari War. While he does not specify what he means exactly, in all likelyhood that means that the pre-war fleet was even larger than what they had during the show, at least in terms of pure number of ships.
As for Human's reactions to the war, they were manyfold. The majority was scared and/or war-weary, which among other things led to the adoption of the Babylon project. Others became xenophobic and this hate and fear of the alien - Minbari in particular - kept simmering beneath the surface and eventually became the powerbase which enabled Clark to take over.
As part of the Clark propaganda they also mention people who after the war saw the Minbari as gods or messengers of god sent to punish them. While it is possible that this was completely made up, I wouldn't be surprised if such individuals really did exist, albeit in much smaller numbers and/or severity than the propagandists made it out to be. Clark's people were skilled enough in twisting and misrepresenting the truth to not have to depend on outright lies. "Always hide a lie within a truth. That makes it easier to swallow." seems to have been their motto.
For the chaotic neutral thing... yeah sure. While there were some that wanted to join the Dilgar War out of moral reasons, there were also those that wanted to join for the benefits it would bring Earth. And Earth did gain a lot of benefit from their intervention in the war and being seen as something of a saviour. And whenever "evil" factions came into power within EarthGov, there was always a group of "good" people working against them to balance out the equation, so the race as a whole never slipped fully into evil... so to say.
Also Earth joined the Dilgar was when they found a plan detailing the next Dilgat objectives, which included Earth.
So basically humanity entered the Dilgar war for the same reason the Romulans did enter the Dominion war in Star Trek.
I bet a certain encounter-suited ambassador knew why the Dilgar's star went boom...
Quick point: The Mimbari did not bypass earth forces and head straight for earth, they waged a war of extinction against humanity and wiped out every colony etc on the "way" to earth, culminating at the "Battle of the Line" the "last defence" of earth where the Mimbari surrendered
While the show lacked the budget that it’s then competitor DS9, it has certainly left an impact on Sci-Fi.
I think the minbari saw the return of the shadows, i think if i remember correctly they forsaw that sheridan was somehow instrumental in stopping them or something to that effect so that is why they surrendered everything the minbari did was prepare for that war. I think it has been a long time since i watched it.
Er no, they found Sinclair had a Minbari soul, and more to the point, their great leader, Valen's soul!! And Minbari do not kill Minbari!!
The Minbari held the secrete of why they surrendered very closely. It was feared by the Minbari leaders that, and the show plays this out, if the Minbari people found out why they surrendered it would cause great strife for the Minbari. The fact is that the Minbari civil war was eventually caused by this surrender, because the Warrior cast lost faith in the ability of the Religious cast to make wise decisions in the joint rule of the Minbari after Neroon (Warrior cast) learned the secret, hence a war by the Warrior cast to control the Minbari Federation. The EA never learned of the reason for the surrender, though they did try to find the reason as played out in several episodes in the show. Did the surrender of the Minbari effect the EA, absolutely, it left the EA insecure about its power, and rightly so, it caused the earth to try to find military and technological advancements to use in attaining power. The Archeological expeditions which were searching for lost technologies like that found on Zha'Dum, were likely a direct result of a search for this type of power, and the cooperation with the shadows was an attempt to gain technology from the Shadows as well, in furtherance of this goal. The EA knew it had been defeated even with the Minbari surrender and it rang hollow for the EA, it left doubt in the EA. The EA only had one victory over the Minbari fleet before that last battle, otherwise the EA had been completely outmatched by the Minbari. I believe that this knowledge made the EA unsure of its place, its power and probably its very future in a greater universe. The EA did not trust the Minbari and resented them, and eventually this lead the EA to purposely antagonize the Minbari by appointing John Sheridan as the new commander of B5, because Sheridan was the only EA captain to defeat the Minbari Fleet with the destruction of the Black Star. The EA tried to pound its chest years after the war, after rebuilding its fleet, and claimed that the war would not go the same way if it happened again. But it is important to remember that much of the behavior the EA displays during the show was after the assassination of President Santiago, and with the rise of President Clark who was in league with the Shadow, who were enemies of the Minbari. If Santiago had not been assassinated then the EA would have had a different tone. Overall, I don't believe the EA was any more or less ethnocentric than any other race in the show, though Clark was more ethnocentric than Santiago, and I don't think the Earth Minbari war changed that. The Earth Minbari war and the reason for the Minbari surrender do to the "Merging" of Human and Minbari souls, or the rebirth of Human Souls in the Minbari is a major story line in B5,. This merging is only discovered by the Minbari leadership due to the Earth Minbari war, and it is later discovered that this merging of Human and Minbari races have been due to interbreed after Sinclair took Minbari form and traveled 1,000 years into the past to assist the Minbari and Vorlons in the previous great war against the shadows. Well, more that the Vorlon's encouraged the discovery by the Minbari of this fact, as the Vorlon's manipulated the Minbari and humans (if you read the books this is clearly shown) to do their bidding.
Lore Reloaded
Hey, What B5 ships are worth making models of? Can’t make above 2 feet, and must be able to also make a USS-Defiant to scale.
For not having completed the series, you do seem to have some solid resources.
Minor note as it seems a little important, I'd have added anyway, that Earth and the Dilgar were both chasing the same brass rung: the void filled by the collapsing Centauri empire, which by the start of the show is 12 star systems and only a few billion people strong (EA being more than double that in size, both in systems and people).
I would have added the Food Riots to the timeline, where John Sheridan first earned notoriety. Mars rebellions are almost a core component of the EA's identity. There's almost a fascinating, "Spacer" feel towards the end of the series when Mars becomes an independent Human nation, with access to all the FTL tech and such that the terrestrial powers who aren't in the EA don't have access to.
And, yeah I definitely agree with placing, at least partial blame, on the Minbari War for the rise of the fascistic elements of the series proper. The movie even shows that Earth frequently broadcast its unconditional surrender to the Minbari. Humanity was willing to be completely subjugated, if only they'd allow us to live. And it still wasn't good enough for the Minbari. Faced with that kind of enemy, it's honestly not hard to blame the common people for swinging so wildly xenophobic in response.
The Minbari are real assholes. The show treats them with such kid gloves xD
Oh, also, special mention to be said of the E.A.'s special relationship with the Russian Consortium. Russia isn't exactly a full member, flag officers frequently identify themselves as being from the Consortium instead of from Earth Force, but they do still get to serve and join if they wish.
I try to do my research before i talk to something. Not always the best at it.
I would say that some colonies survived the second Earth Alliance Civil War because human rangers were sent to Earth to help in the rebuilding, unless the IA was abducting humans from earth and training them as rangers.
Ah, I see I'm not the only one that's found this gem of a show hiding on Amazon Prime Video!
Yes, yes, yes. More B5 pls.
You need to watch the series and the movies. Earth mimbari war was forseen by the vorlons and they allowed it to happen to create the Babylon stations,etc. Quite the temporal paradox.
I just realized this was new and I am so glad you are covering my favorite Si-Fi series!
I just started a rewatch, on s1e18.
Why does everyone make this mistake? Intergalactic means "more than one galaxy" or "between galaxies." The jump gates were within the Milky Way weren't they? Intragalactic better describes it though intersolar power is also accurate and sounds better.
Maybe..they will travel between galaxies and that is what I was referring ?
If they do travel between different galaxies than your usage is correct and I apologize. However what I thought I knew about B5 from some other channel was pretty clear the series took place only within this galaxy, but I never saw much of the series myself. Sorry.
It's like intercity and interstate. Quite easy.
That is major criticism I have with Babylon 5 that they showed future events therefore restricting potential future spin offs.
Don't make it sound like Earth was at fault for the Earth-Minbari war. A group of Earth ships, not even military (no seriously they were just merchant ships and transports), were minding their own business, when a Minbari battlecruiser, carrying their Supreme Leader who openly advocated for peace, sauntered up with all gun ports open and guns bared... ina show of peace. Fearing they were about to be attacked the Earth ships opened their gun ports (they were closed going in) and fired.
This is where things went to sh*t...
The Minbari battlecruiser caught off guard because they were in full battle posture but not ready for battle battle (go figure) and their ship was wrecked. Their supreme leader, who was looking to make peace with the Humans, was killed and the Earth ships fled as is normal for non-military ships who just opened fire on a strange vessel that looked like they were going to attack them. IN his dying breath the Minbari leader tried to tell them not to blame the humans for they had made the mistake of coming at them as if an enemy. Unfortunately, he died before he could actually get the words out properly.
So the Minbari, in unreasoning hatred and anger, went on a genocidal war against the Humans. With their overwhelming technological superiority, much like a modern US Navy fighting a WW1 Navy. the technological gap was literally that huge and much harder to cross. But also in as much lack of sense and reason, the Minbari had religious epiphany that allowed Earth to be sparred at the "Battle of the Line", in a one sided war fought with far more courage and dignity than the Minbari's crusade of Genocide.
While the Minbari are not much humbled but any of this, they are more willing to show respect to Humanity. Also while the Minbari still have technological lead on Humanity, Earth Force has not been at all slow about upping their game and most Earth warship at the end of B5 series would tank and even kill Minbari battlecruisers of the same vintage.
In hindsight, the Earth Minbari war was the stupidest war ever, exposing the biggest bad-asses of that universe as a bunch of egotistical dumbasses. you could say the Minbari are more like America than the Earth, in this case but it was still stupid as screen door on the Space Shuttle. Next time actually read your species notes, especially the recommendations for first contact.