All heading sources are showing different data. Endeavor CRJ9 diverts to Kennedy Airport. Real ATC
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- THIS VIDEO IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF THE FOLLOWING SITUATION IN FLIGHT:
11-MAY-2023. An Endeavor Air Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-900 (CRJ9), registration N295PQ, performing flight EDV5145 / 9E5145 from New York LaGuardia Airport, NY (USA) to Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport, GA (USA) after departure from LaGuardia reported issue with maintaining heading and requested to stay in the area. Later the crew decided to divert to New York Kennedy International Airport. Being under control of Kennedy Approach the pilots reported that all three heading sources were showing different data and the air traffic control service declared the emergency for them. Subsequently they landed safely on runway 22 right at New York Kennedy Airport.
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#realatc #aviation #airtrafficcontrol
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Timestamps:
00:00 Description of situation
00:17 Initial climb
01:28 Endeavor 5145 reported heading issue
04:34 Endeavor 5145 decided to call company
06:57 The controlled started vectoring the airplane towards Kennedy Airport
07:23 Endeavor 5145 was transferred to Kennedy Approach controller
09:05 All heading sources are showing different data. The emergency was declared.
14:27 Endeavor 5145 is ready for approach
17:01 The pilots contacted Tower controller
17:35 Landing
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THE VALUE OF THIS VIDEO:
THE MAIN VALUE IS EDUCATION. This reconstruction will be useful for actual or future air traffic controllers and pilots, people who plan to connect life with aviation, who like aviation. With help of this video reconstruction you’ll learn how to use radiotelephony rules, Aviation English language and general English language (for people whose native language is not English) in situation in flight, which was shown. THE MAIN REASON I DO THIS IS TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVERY EMERGENCY SITUATION, EVERY WORD AND EVERY MOVE OF AIRCRAFT.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL, LICENSES AND PERMISSIONS:
Source of communications - www.liveatc.net/ (I have a permission (Letter) for commercial use of radio communications from LiveATC.net).
Map, aerial pictures (License (ODbL) ©OpenStreetMap -www.openstreetmap.org/copyrig...) Permission for commercial use, royalty-free use.
Radar screen (In new versions of videos) - Made by author.
Text version of communication - Made by Author.
Video editing - Made by author.
HOW I DO VIDEOS:
1) I monitor media, airspace, looking for any non-standard, emergency and interesting situation.
2) I find communications of ATC unit for the period of time I need.
3) I take only phrases between air traffic controller and selected flight.
4) I find a flight path of selected aircraft.
5) I make an animation (early couple of videos don’t have animation) of flight path and aircraft, where the aircraft goes on his route.
6) When I edit video I put phrases of communications to specific points in video (in tandem with animation).
7) Together with my comments (voice and text) I edit and make a reconstruction of emergency, non-standard and interesting situation in flight.
In the beginning the controller was about to chew their asses for the incorrect headings. Once he realized there was a problem he totally switched.
Yeah seriously-the pilots were about to get a number to call 😂
I came to the comments to mention how he quickly switched from annoyed New Yorker with the curt attitude to total professional once he was aware the pilots were dealing with an issue and not just being complete boneheads.
They didnt look in the right place to have this issue with 3 airports so close and probably lots of plane ! The controller was very quick to switch to start and stop turn when he realized the issue
Yeah. The problem is there was an issue but this American style of not declaring pan or may day gave no chance to the atc to know there was a problem. Maybe they think they are just funny words.
@@MrMarcec85 You are right, there does seem to be a total reluctance to use Mayday or Pan calls and this is precisely the sort of issue that they were designed for. The first radio call of Mayday would instantly made the controller aware of a problem even if at that stage he did not know what it was. This becomes an even greater issue with US pilots operating out in the rest of the world where the Mayday and Pan calls are used correctly. I have never seen an explanation of why US pilots are so reluctant to use the proper calls.
This was absolutely amazing work. Both ATC and pilots had excellent communications and situational awareness.
Yes, except for the co- pilot's headset mike sounding like it was stowed in her carry on..🙄
@@clqudy4750 I think you will find she was the captain. she was making the decisions
She sounds a little German or Polish for some reason~ just a tiny bit
It’s weird to hear her talk so slowly and clearly based on what I usually hear. She sounds more like a hotel manager
She was great!
Yea, probaly new on the job
@@bruh5198 that's the captain. definitely not new
Basically ATC complained every time the woman spoke. She wasn't that hard to hear. ATC just didn't want to listen.
Great job on both parts. Stressful when your equipment goes crazy. Better to talk slowly than be misunderstood.
Absolutely right
I watch a lot of these videos. I get annoyed when the aircraft has to repeat souls and fuel when the controller changes. That should be passed along. And sometimes they want fuel in pounds and sometimes they accept hours from the crew.
I can understand time and weight, but two different ATC asking annoys me (especially on the same frequency).
Between the two calls they burned 1,100 pounds of fuel. Souls shouldn't change but fuel should be kept updated.
You should stop being annoyed because that’s how it is.
@@saxmanb777 That's not a good reason for dismissing failed procedures in an industry like Aviation. What's supposed to happen: ATC gets souls and fuel, gives it to the supervisor, supervisor relays it to the appropriate stations.
Especially on the same frequency: next ATC should get all the information about the emergency during handover.
Therefore, imo, it is valid to be annoyed by unnecessarily doubled questioning of pilots in a high-workload situation.
@@lyaneris I kinda get both sides. I think I'd heard they prefer to ask to make 100% sure the information is correct and it's not a case of someone misunderstanding something and sharing wrong information to their superior
But yeah the pilots have a super high workload already and I'm not sure the controllers fully grasp that
A splendid example of ANC:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
That is why the pilots seems a bit...not present, a lot of the time.
Yesterday 6:15ish EST jfk: Pilots reported a possible plane in the water. A plane investigated and it was a pipe or something but it was an interesting listen.
Definitely handled it good. Great communication from the captain.
I’m had this failure in a crj. It’s majorly confusing especially when trying to stay on a specific departure procedure involving headings. I was able to isolate the failed AHRS and get it all sorted out. These have been happening more recently. Third one I’ve seen on UA-cam.
Are you allowed to use the GPS in your iPad as a backup compass in such a situation?
does crj have physical compass in case of power failure or smth?
@@NoNameAtAll2 yes have magnetic compass, and in case of a power failure still u have standby instruments
@@bladi-senpai9398 But she said that the magnetic compass was also giving incorrect values... Strange normally a magnetic compass can not fail. However I have heard that there have been strong solar flares earlier this month, shaking the earths magnetic field. This could cause magnetic compasses to give incorrect bearings. But I am not sure if that was the case here.
@@Ztbmrc1 it can be.
This is amazing work! We need to pay our ATC much more than we do and really recognize all they do every single day.
They make good money already. The main issue is there aren’t enough qualified personnel so they end up working some crazy hours and different shifts. That workload isn’t conducive to a good life.
what an endeavour.....
I'll see myself out now, thanks
very well done though
Aaah I see what you did there 😂
Funny 😀
Great Communication by the Pilot!!!!
no, it was not
@@mijo3642 Aside from the quality of the transmission, the pilots were clear, articulate, and enunciated their intentions and callbacks clearly.
I agree with Mi Jo. The "sounds good" responses were unprofessional.
Great work by the controller!
The calm voice of a mom in control 😂
❤❤❤ Nice to see
Great work by everyone! I also found that female pilot voice so soothing.
but pretty useless..
@@mijo3642 Are you projecting again?
I disagree lol as a controller her voice would be making the situation more annoying
"soothing" ?? made me throw up
@@mgoo1713 LOL more silly comments from the flight sim jock
6:06 "so we can sequence you in when you're ready"
There was a time when they called this “no gyro vectors”. I wonder if it’s still used.
Yes, you can find a couple of videos here with no gyro vectoring. As I remember i uploaded about 2. Both of them were over New York.
I think it's such a rare occurance, ATC totally forgets the standard procedures for it XD . I mostly know about European stuff, but I'd imagine it would be the same (using NOW and declaring rate of turn)
🎉🎉🎉 Awesome 👍👍👍👍
👍👍👍
All so professional
the atc at the beginning was starting to get piss off until he was informed of the issue then he got very calm and understanding
Of course I have no idea what I am talking about,but I remember hearing this can happen if the IRS is still calibrating when the plane is moving
That took down a jet in south America, pilots hurried the startup sequence to beat a storm and ended up crashing because the compass was unreliable while they were in a storm over a jungle and outside of radar coverage.
Wow, thanks for posting this video with such great animations and captions , fantastic channel
👍 Thank you for watching 😊
It took the pilots a while to get in touch with Company. In an emergency situation they should be getting immediate response. When this didn't happen I would have just gone back to JFK.
I wondered about that. I assume they just used the time to go through checklists thoroughly and plan contingencies in case of further complications or failures.
But yeah, a long time.
theres not really a point in rushing is there? They had plenty of fuel. Much safer to wait, call the company, perhaps they have some advice.
I'm not sure, but it makes sense when thinking on CRM. The aircraft was apparently flying well, and nothing seemed an immediate danger. It's still serious, but if no more complications come up, it makes total sense to keep flying, ask for time and space to ATC and get more help from any source available. Yes, sooner could be ideal, but it may not be that necessary.
The Captain is the ultimate authority. So I'm just gonna throw in the air that, if the captain feels that the plane needs to land now, wherever the captain decides, no permition from anyone is needed. The company will deal with it later.
But I would say the captain's assessment may have been that no such measures were required in that situation. So 1) taking time to get further help, despite how long it seems to take for us, and maybe adittionally, 2) waiting on the company to also assess the best way to deal with the unplanned landing on a different airport in regards to 3) passenger treatment, and 4) plane inspection and testing after an incident like this? I'm no expert, but also doesn't seem that bad of a situation. And also understandable the time it took to get the company's opinion/wishes.
(Please correct me if I mentioned anything stupid.)
I wonder if they cant get any headings at all are they able to use the ipad plan screen as a heading compass?
Nice to know how ARC works when the technology when one is able to be in the present.
They really need to get that radio fixed
Good grief, where is the damn Company?
Faith restored in JFK ATC 👏😊
Unusually courteous for NY controllers
I've watched 3 videos so far about this heading issue and all of them featured Endeavour, what an odd coincidence
Part of this may be complicated by LGA. There are huge issues with AHRS alignment before you get away from the metal madness.
They took off on 13 which has major issues with AHRS. In the BeechJet I've had the HSI spinning at about 20rpm when taking runway 13 at the beginning. We normally took off at intersection AA. And this was 20 years ago. I also flew the CRJ200 from LGA and sometimes had the issue with it too. The same NOTAM is still present:
MAG ANOMALIES MAY AFFECT COMPASS HDG WHEN USING EXTENSION RYS 13 & 22 FOR TKOF.
I understood nothing you said but I believe you! 😀
@@juliemanarin4127 I’ll sum it up for you. Large masses of metal that is of an iron nature makes navigation instruments unreliable. All the metal is from buildings and things such as the wire mesh in the concrete.
@@kaptainkaos1202 Metal mesh in concrete has relatively little effect. Structural steel in buildings, more so. But any major amounts of DC current, especially on longer wires is the biggest effect.
Damn! Someone was using their cell phone! 😂
"Something is working....finally"
I hope I never have to transmit that over the radio.
I feel like I would be so titled in busy NY airspace with this woman taking up 30 seconds on the radio to tell a story every time she wants to talk.
Yeah guys, that's what happening if you don't turn off your phone. See?
darn passenger cell phones.
I'd really like to know what caused navigation to fail like that.
I don't remember why, but something during or just after takeoff caused one of the pilots to accidentally reset both IRS in flight, which caused the heading indications on both sides to be incorrect
I am super grateful that this plane landed safely! I might be sexist, but it initially sounded like the female pilot was not being repected, However, the later female controller seemed more disrepectful. I love this channel. How do ATC workers feel about gender issues?
I'm curious if the CRJ-900 has gyros that need to be spun up and stabilized before departure. I find it hard to believe all redundant systems showing different data. Interesting case.
Most CRJ’s don’t have IRS’s. Some do.
@@saxmanb777 This one in particular does have IRS
What ever happened to requesting No Gyro turns and backing it up with the mag compass? Maybe it is that they have only flown for the airlines and never had the chance to fly old cargo planes that break now and then. Ahhhh, the wonders of ab initio pilots,
Isn’t there a real compass up by the windscreen?
They said they weren't getting reliable readings from that either
lolol. The compass isn't reliable either?Whaaaaaat?
The magnetic compass sticks and judders. You cannot fly to it with any precision. No idea if one is fitted to the MD-80 however Magnetic compass is used to double check other instruments.
@@andrewsmall6568 You are trained on the magnetic compass and its errors early in private pilot training. While you can't see your TRACK, you can most certainly see your magnetic heading. I had to use it exclusively for several turns and prove I could reliably account for the errors on the checkride.
ANDS
Accelerate North Decelerate South (when you accelerate it tends to point more north and when you decelerate it dents to points more south)
UNOS
Undershoot North Overshoot South
@@sakumisan The compass in big jets suck bad, unlike your Cessna. A huge issue is the heated windshield which takes a significant amount of current and causes large errors. Although this isn't a MD-80 as Andrew Small thinks, the DC-8, DC-9, MD-80 and 717 has the world's worst standby compass setup. It is stuck overhead on the back wall. Each pilot has a mirror, which is used to sight a second mirror, which shows the standby compass. If you want to use it, you have to fold out and align your mirror, and if you shift in your seat, repeat it.
Why TF did it take so long to declare an emergency?
I wonder why the didn't make a Pan Pan call or declare an emergency.
Classical Heading Bug
To me the female pilots voice sounds computer generated. I realize she’s probably a primary French speaker since she’s from a Canadian airline.
I was so wondering. Perfect English but something about the inflection.
Sounds like the controller that handled Sully and the Hudson
He's retired now, so no. Maybe you just hear the New York accent (which all local controllers will have)?
If they need to get the plane on the ground why bother waiting for company to approve that?
They're probably coordinating which airport has maintenance facility for them to deal with it.
It's not about whether to get on the ground or not, it's about which airport to go to. The flight took of from Laguardia but they might have more maintenance facilities at JFK. If this was a failure that threatened the airworthiness of the aircraft like a fuel leak or engine failure or something they would have landed wherever they can get on the ground fastest. In this case there was no real reason they couldn't take a few minutes to figure out the best way to balance getting to maintenance facilities and getting the passengers to where they need to go.
There wasn't an urgent need to land though. There was time to run checklists, talk to the company to see which airport has the appropriate maintenance facilities, which had flight options to get passengers to their destination, which potentially had a spare aircraft and spare crews if needed, and more. With some issues, the checklist says "land immediately." This is not one of those issues though.
xavion problem solved
Can’t wait for airplanes go fully automated!!! NOT!!!
That female accent is a very, very strange accent. I'm not sure if she's a native speaker or not. The command of idioms and slang is native-tier, but the pace of speech seems somehow quite slow and the accent is a very odd mix of features that I haven't heard before. Not really sure what to make of it lol
I think she might have been talking so slow because of her radio problems.
French Canadian?
I immediately thought that her accent was Asian. I kept trying to recall all my acquaintances with such an accent. Vietnamese? Chinese? Thailand?
@@karend1577 French Canadian I think, Vietnamese would be similar since they were a French colony.
@@andrewfidel2220 My very first thoughts were some oddball sort of spanish, but much of the rest of it clearly isn't spanish either. and i haven't heard a lot of québecois but it doesn't sound much like either kind of french to me.
I would look into this company maintenance practices. Issues with heading reference, pilot's mike.. who knows what else?
Any CRJ pilots out there like to chime in on how this can happen? Seems to have been a video in the past with the same situation. Maybe the pilots moving the jet when the INUs or whatever they have aren't aligned yet? Another question, if they have the heading issue worked out, why not just continue to destination? ATC is going to let you know if you turned the wrong heading and chances are LNAV or the RNAV systems would probably still work just fine??
Don't the runways at LGA that extend over the water have a steel structure underneath that can cause this? I seem to recall another CRJ a few months ago with a similar problem after takeoff from there.
They need to follow SOP. Lack of system knowledge.
Almost all the CRJ’s have AHRS that don’t need to be aligned like a IRS/IRU. There’s 2, and a standby compass. There’s also a standby attitude indicator.
The plane is actually highly sensitive to magnetic fields which cause the headings to disagree. That said it never affected attitude information in my personal experience. We just looked at the standby compass, and reset the AHRS that was off by slewing it in DG mode. We were even allowed to takeoff with a heading disagree by going to DG mode instead for takeoff at one point in the SOP at my company.
I flew the CRJ for only a year and a half and probably got this message airborne 10 times and on the ground 100+ times.
As far as for what happened on this flight, I have no idea, I’m only sharing my personal experiences.
Also yeah in hindsight and sitting on my couch typing this vs being in a plane, GPS 1/2 would still have track information. I don’t fly the CRJ anymore but I do remember it being kinda buried in the FMS.
Also the QRH procedure for this failure DOES NOT mention using GPS track as a alternative.
@johnsmith-zi90r I don't remember why, but something during or just after takeoff caused one of the pilots to accidentally reset both IRS in flight, which caused the heading indications on both sides to be incorrect
I’m surprised that the crew didn’t seem particularly experienced with no gyro vectors or how to calculate and make standard rate (3°/sec) turns. 10% of the airspeed + 7° gets you pretty close.
Maybe it’s that younger pilots have come up when technology and automation is more reliable. However when things fail they don’t have the same understanding of the fundamentals as we used to learn.
You don’t do standard rate turns in airliners at these speeds and altitudes
@@jakeoesterreich8037 sure you do. When controllers issue no gyro vectors they simply divide the course change needed by 3 and count off the seconds. At 200 kts it’s about a 27° bank. No big deal at all.
ATC also didn't seem well versed in how to issue non-gyro vectors in a way to get accurate results. Using "NOW" as the cue to start/stop a turn would have improved turn accuracy by a lot imo.
@@lyaneris I thought that too. No one flies ASR or PAR approaches any more so no it’s a lost skill on both sides. Too bad. It was a satisfying thing to do as a pilot and I suspect even more so as a controller.
Why would they go to JFK instead of just back to LGA?
👍
Alternatively longer runways and more connections. I can't remember the last emergency originating from LGA that stayed in the area that didn't divert to JFK (or EWR if United)
Maintenance is there. Easier to fix.
Both maintenance and longer runways. And less LaGuardia.
Longer runways, better approaches, less terrain/building issues, maintenance, potentially more robust recovery, etc.
Wow, no comments about how the controller was so rude?
I've seen commenters on VASAviation comment on less (though he does like to put "ANGRY ATC" in all caps in the title of all his videos).
Makes sense honestly. The controller only sounded annoyed when it seemed like the pilots were ignoring instructions but chilled out once he realised they are actually having a pretty serious issue.
Doesn't really seem like the right situation to criticize the controller honestly.
Did you watch it past the 2 min mark? Controller was exemplary.
What caused the navigation system to get weird? They are no where near the Bermuda triangle. I wonder if any cosmic anomalies were in route from the Sun that affected the systems in this case
Someone was using their damn cellphone 😂
@@wesstallard8919 Ah, The great myth of cell phone use on aircraft lol
Is her mic even next to her mouth?
she sounds like a computerized voice. I think she is ethnically Chinese.
Classic case of INEXPERIENCED pilots. If you've ever flown out of LGA on Rwy 13 , CRJ pilots must slew the compass. You have to put the compass in heading manually when departing LGA 13 due to all the metal in the runway pier screwing up the AHRS. I cannot believe both CA & FO did not know this. Scares me to listen to (I believe) the CA speaking on the radio in such a faint voice to where ATC says "I can't hear you". This is what commercial aviation is unfortunately as supply & demand shrinks the pilot pool and what's left is just low time, inexperienced pilots not able to fly the old fashion way of good stick & rudder and relying on the A/P do get them out of simple situations.
Thank you 👍
100% correct. It was difficult to listen to this at times.
Moreover, too much wasted time spent on ‘thank you’ unnecessary niceties etc…it’s a generational thing. Good kids. But, just the facts. No need to thank them each time and company approval and updates can mostly wait too. Figure that out later. Declare. Be clear and specific, but mostly brief on comms. Focus. FLY and land the aircraft safely. ATC was solid+. Crew clearly lacked experience and (therefore) confidence.
@tony-px9wn you probably shouldn't be talking when you don't know the facts. This CRJ in the video does not even have an AHRS, it has an IRS, which is not affected by the magnetic anomalies on runway 13 at LGA. And even if it did, the problem would disappear as soon as they took off.
It's VERY unlikely that completely independent "whiskey compass" malfunctioned simultaneously with main gyro system - AHRS or whatever they have on CRJ. Unless they had someone with the name Negoro (c) Dick Sand on the crew list 😉
High current devices in the cockpit (like the heated windows, cabling in the overhead panel, avionics power busses etc) can skew the compass. It is also not reliable for navigation in general, especially at the speeds at which a jet travels vs a GA aircraft. Besides, the problem as described originally is that all sources disagreed. Maybe the whiskey compass was right all along, but they couldn't use it until they ran all the checklists and were __really__ sure it was showing a somewhat correct heading
The issue here is clearly nothing mechanically or sensory-wise, but a magnetic field emanating somewhere from the plane causing the hiccups. As the compasses are gyro-stabilized they will stabilize over short bursts of misinformation. So the issues will appear if you turn: They will all stop at different positions and then slowly even out to show the same course.
@@alessandroceloria4573 no. They stated the backup compass was showing wrong values, too.
@@RubenKelevra Standby compass will always be "unreliable", it's not supposed to be used for navigation except during catastrophic failures. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's defective, it's just very subsceptible to noise. Also I'm not sure magnetic fields have anything to do with the double IRS failure, those use laser gyros that should be completely unaffected by magnetic anything as far as i know, unless the CRJs use a different technology for their nav systems wrt mainline jets or i have misunderstood their working principle
A double IRS / AHRS failure exceedingly rare. So rare in fact that it makes a failure of the whiskey compass seems just as likely. In other words, likely a source of significant magnetic interference rather than a failure of the systems themselves. The systems are working exactly like they’re supposed to; but they’re getting ‘bad information’ because of a magnetic source somewhere on the aircraft.
Always put the man on the radio.
The female pilot is way too long winded.
OK, wow. I'm sorry, but the radio work was horrible. Failure to acknowledge with the flight ID, way too much explanation, too much colloquial chatter. All around poor radio discipline.
Posted 38 Seconds ago
The pilots were reluctant to make the decision to declare their emergency and land the aircraft. This created unnecessary risk for the aircraft and unnecessary work for the controllers.
It's definitely way too often the case in these ATC recordings that the pilots have to be practically forced to declare an emergency or a simple pan pan.
Disagree on the checklist part though. They are there for a reason and unless the failure is so severe that you have to land immediately, it's better to keep flying, do all checks and communications before making a rash decision. It's the controller's job to assist them as much as possible, which they immediately did in a calm and professional manner.
Only due to the long holding were they able to finally get the autopilot running again, so the landing was much safer than if they had tried to land immediately...
Not really. When they said they were going back to JFK they got help they needed.
The female Endeavor pilot talks way too slowly.
Slow and understood beats fast and unclear.
she started speaking slow and clearly after departure said she was barely readable.
Are you a coked up ferret Pads?
@@hucken666 I thought that was a hint to troubleshoot her radio, rather than to speak more slowly.
I thought she was a great communicator on freq.
Forget talking to company. Captain make a decision and land. Way too much trouble shooting and relying on autopilot
They were not in any immediate danger; following procedures/checklists and coordinating with company seems like the appropriate thing to do.
They have all the time in the world, there’s no reason why they can’t coordinate with company and trouble shoot in this situation…
You can hear the autopilot disengage aural at 2:15.
OMG too much damn talking. Learn ICAO aviation phraseology. Declare an emergency and get out of everyones way.
Nah, declaring an emergency usually works the other way around. I'd say a PAN would have been sufficient. For getting out of peoples way, they requested a "heading block" very early. The vectors were ATC discretion.
However, I do agree that everyone should brush up on non-gyro vectors.
You don't think the controller was keeping them out of the way? Did they hit anything? Also, they were communicating exactly what they needed and getting what they needed. That's the reason ICAO phraseology exists - so pilots who don't have English as their primary language can communicate what they need. These pilots were well understood