Probably quite a few of us do pick up on speaking mistakes- I'm the type of person that gets mentally smacked over the head with them when I hear them, but It's not enough of a problem for me to comment on them if I know what you meant- even if they're funny I'd usually just keep them to myself unless I were invited to point them out
That's only proof that anyone can miss a single "messed up" word among hundreds of other words. On the other hand, when you're in a conversation with someone and you clearly notice that they make the same mistake over and over again (in this case the pilot most likely completely blocked out the information "runway" for the reason you already guessed), then you can still make an effort to change your tone, so that you stress the part the other party messes up! Like saying "...TURN LEFT ON R_U_N_W_A_Y F_O_U_R L_E_F_T, I want you to taxi ON THE RUNWAY, and then hold short.....etc" He instead repeated the entire taxi instructions like 7 times and each and every single time he spoke clearly, however he used the exact same tone for everything, so the pilot heard (falsely) the exact same thing over and over again. I'd also like to point out that the controller went through the word "runway" within like 0,1 seconds almost every single time and he did the same with the runway's number. So all that pilot heard was probably "...turn left forleft and hold short..." Anyway, that's my take, I'm proficient enough but no native speaker and these controllers frustrate me so often on UA-cam, that I can't even imagine what it would do to me to be actually speaking to them in order to navigate my ficticious aircraft 😅. But anyway, that's probably the teacher in me speaking, I'm used to getting beginners to understand something new and/or different. Teaching old d.... ehm... I mean adults to do things differently is an even more difficult task. But my point is, controllers, especially at places like JFK, should know that and they should be able to "force" the other guy to get what they're saying to them. And that's not done by just hitting "replay" on your own "voice tape". Cheers.
I think we can all figure out they haven't invited Kelsey to design an airport because having a pilots' lounge with free snacks would bankrupt the airport.
I'm actually surprised incidents like this one don't happen more often. And by the way, I wish ATC would always say "cannot" instead of "can't". It makes a huge difference .
@@АлишерМакашев-ж1ш For the sake of language barriers its better to keep the words as distinct as possible. Abbreviations can be confusing for those who are not fluent in said language
Current air traffic controller… Unable, negative, are the words we are taught to use. We are taught to use those first and then use plain English for clarity if those do not work
I am an English speaking pilot. The controller could have said “turn left on Golf, enter Runway 04 left, hold before Foxtrot”. The New York accent, the speed of delivery, the abbreviated words (fox/foxtrot) coupled with non native English speakers and fatigue all made for an accident waiting to happen. it must be remembered by ATC that they are there to help pilots and improve safety … the controller could simply have said “hold position” if he was not happy with communication and made certain that the aircraft had the correct taxi routing established before continuing.
Also a NYC native - he speaks way too fast for non-native speakers to understand over radio quality . He’s like MTA announcements when there’s a change in service.
4L can be interpreted as "for left" which when literally translated into Portuguese is "para a esquerda" which means "to the left". Many Brazilians will translate "vira para a esquerda" literally as "turn for left" when speaking English. So when the controller says "turn left Golf, left turn_on [pause] Fo(u)r left hold short o'foxtrot" - the Brazilian pilot just heard they had to make a bunch of left turns after turning left on Golf. After the first time the controller said it like that, the damage was already done. Sorry, but it's really not that clear to begin with, however much the controller tried to fix it later, because the first thing you heard psychologically sticks with you. I'm in the business of localization and internationalization, I speak 6 languages, and I'm married to a Brazilian. My job is to flag things like this situation which can be an impediment to good understanding.
@toddsmith8608 Yep, the onus can't be just on INTL pilots to have whatever grasp of English they're supposed to hsve. Plus I wouldn't say the pilots' English is that poor. They were mostly able to communicate about everything else that they would normally encounter at other airports. So, pilots could've probably used some better prep for JFK, but the controllers there should really come off their high horse a bit too. They're an INTL airport, so they need to do some work to provide an INTL-friendlier service. They are collecting fees after all.
My favorite JFK taxiing scenarios are when Ground tells a plane to relay an ultimatum to Ramp that they won't be clearing any more planes out onto their taxiways until Ramp clears them into the ramp. Ground and Ramp have completely opposite priorities, they don't talk directly to each other, and they don't work for the same organization. So the flight crew are like kids mediating a bitter dispute between divorced parents who are not on speaking terms. Conflict is built into the system.
True. I read Ramp get paid more than Ground and are in a separate building. I have no idea if that's true or not, but I do know this Ramp vs Ground war will continue to cause incidents
"Don't work for the same organization"? Constant surprises in this discussion. Who employs ramp? Now that being said.............many employers have to work with other employers for the mutual benefit. Only tradesmen operate free of coordination. They work with a client.
@@JimMorkGenerally, whichever company operates the terminal, employs the ramp controllers, be it the airline or a managing contractor (Swissport, etc.).
English is my native language and I still found understanding ATC was the hardest part of my flying experience as a private pilot in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Truth be told, I had enough difficulty understanding the ATC's speaking - every time he gave the instruction, that I would have asked him to repeat slower. Actually, I very often have a hard time understanding many (maybe even most) controllers even though my English level is very high and has been my sole language for my entire, long life.
I’m a controller here at SCEL, glad to have you here! We would never give a runway involved taxi clearance without a specific “cleared to enter runway 04L, turn left onto 04L and hold short of F”, even when controlling in Spanish due to the rarity of the clearance.
That's exactly what I was thinking. The controller did not explicitly clear them onto the runway, so even as a hobbyist Sim Pilot, that's a red flag to me.
(AFAIK) In Argentina the ground controller would never clear someone into a runway, we have to switch to twr for that. Maybe Brazil has some rules like that too?
Can I ask you a question? Being you are a controller, are notices posted in the control towers that trespass a person from the tower? The controller that was suspected of a stroke or being drunk in Las Vegas that is no longer employed with the FAA.... this dude said that she was trespassed from all control towers in the US via a bulletin that is posted in the flight tower. I thought it was weird to hear that a person is trespassed... seems like a weird usage of the word.... but regardless, can you confirm if that happened?
@@dredwick We don’t have that kind of PERSON NOT ALLOWED posters over here. If a controller messed up he won’t even be able to step into the tower trying to control by its own, so… it’s like the risk mitigates by itself given that we always have a supervisor who knows who is able or not to control.
@@AlejandroGuidotti Hey man, thanks a lot for the response. I didn't think what the guy said made any sense, but he is flooding reddit threads with substantial amounts of conversation regarding the air traffic controller from Vegas that was let go after that incident occurred... I was looking out for any air traffic controllers that I might come across that could shed some light on this type of thing, so I really appreciate your input!
You mentioned about the foreign accent issues and I said to myself, "You are right, that controller does have a bit of a brogue", then I realized you were talking about the pilot :-). The controller was running his own shorthand as well, he said "Fox" instead of "Foxtrot" a few times. One reason the alphabet code is about two syllables is to insure no confusion. Trying to shorten it WILL force confusion. Thanks Kelsey!!!
Props to the pilots for assisting. In today's digital age there is no reason why JFK cannot implement a system where the controller can see clearances in real time, they should review their procedures and not pass on airport clearance duties to pilots.
I was just thinking what an archaic system to use in this day and age. Great opportunity for any entrepreneurs out there. Then you can lease out your solution to all the Airport Authorities.
As a foreigner living in US for 21 years and a fellow pilot, I also have a hard time understanding ATC sometimes. I had times when couldn’t clearly understand ATC instructions and used “say again” some of them seem to be angry at me. Which makes believe that these controllers are showing sign of being overwhelmed and under staff and FAA needs to address that, before a tragedy happens.
It's All About Money. Funding for agencies like the FAA, or Department of Transportation. Or pretty much every agency. Has been cut, and cut again, over and over. And 99% of the time. It's that Party of Fiscal Responsibility. AND, Family Values. That seems to never Value those people and families that depend on everything they cut. AND,.. THEN THEY BITCH ABOUT IT !!! ... welcome to America 🙄 , vote 💙 , if you want things funded 🇺🇸💙👍
I do not think it is that hard for controllers to speak clearly. And maybe a tiny bit more slowly, clearly enunciating words. Especially for airlines from non English speaking countries. It is called trying, and I doubt it would waste much ATC time. They are currently relying on pilots to add to their workload by interpreting what this lazy speak often sounds like, it is almost a gimmick by the controllers to see how they can slur their words. At the same time, many of these pilots seem unable to understand fairly obvious, logical commands.Turn Right vs. Turn Left should sound completely different to every pilot.
I was arguing with the very controller last week because none of us 3 at the F/D didn’t understand more than 30% and my English is pretty good. And I fly mostly in Asia and Africa, so I’m used to bad English, but this is hard stuff to listen to 😮 My F/O was Australian and the 2nd F/O was from Canada and even they had a very hard time.
One of my favorite things about you Kelsey, is your humility. Simply saying you might have done this or thought about that, gives any pilot food for thought. You're an absolute teacher. Limited judgement, advice that can help everyone from a zero hour student to a multiple thousand hour commercial pilot make this channel a must follow. You're awesome!
My 2 cents worth. I was on the jump seat (ATC famil. flight) of a DC3 (yes, I am showing my age) and a controller I knew read out the METAR VERY fast. The co-pilot turned to me and said "did you get that?". After some discussion I think we all ((3 of us in cockpit)) agreed we only got the runway in use and the QNH. Lesson 1) for a new ATC - the pilot needs to write this information down, speak at a rate that allows for this. Lesson 2) For any pilot unfamiliar with the airfield/airspace or ESL (english second language) - cut them some slack and be helpful with your information and rate of speak delivery - you won't have to repeat yourself and P people (including yourself) off. Thanks for calling this one out Kelsey
You know, if you are in a voice call giving very important specifics, you have to ASSUME you might be misheard at the other end. And that is when you SLOW your speech and enunciate. I mean, if a doctor is off shift and gets a call about a patient that might be life or death, he/she would not rattle off stuff lickety-split. Or so one really hopes. Even IN the OR, with someone standing next to you, speed is not the goal.
JFK...the airport where pilots go to age 20 years in 10 minutes and the conga line goes on for a mile...Happy Father's Day to all the Dads out there! Have a great week everyone!
JFK isn't an airport, it's a right of passage. If you survive a trip in and out of JFK without someone pissing off the ATC, you might want to buy a lottery ticket.
4 things: 1-You are amazing in dissecting this case. 2-So kind of the regional pilot to jump in and help Latam pilot. 3- felt bad for Latam pilot, he could have been using his due diligence by not going into the runaway. 4-Controller need to be more empathetic to pilots and less patronizing. Pilots could be sleep deprived, jet lagged, tired, hungry...etc. so the last thing they want is an irate controller...
Controllers have minimal team, often on overtime, and understaffed cause nobody wasn't to do the job. Way harder on their side. If they where properly staffed, then they could empathize.
I've found that German, Dutch and Polish controllers among others speak noticeably far clearer and more intelligible English than far too many controllers in The States.
I just talked to my mother about this (in terms of driving, not aviation). When you're learning, getting on the Autobahn is very stressful because it's so fast. But now if we're in a very big and busy city with poor road design you breathe a sigh of relief when you can finally get on the Autobahn and don't have to navigate the weird layout.
That’s true for a lot of things. Sailing into a marina is more stressful than sailing offshore. Driving in a walmart parking lot is harder than on the highway
Yes, even an airport with two runways can be more stressful and difficult than expected. Airport diagrams now include "hotspot" markings, which indicate where pilots often make mistakes. Be sure to read the notes about each hotspot, because you could easily make the same errors.
How much automation in taxiing. And past disasters like Tenerife illustrate ground navigation can be lethal on a monstrous scale! Separation aloft is way better than separation on the ground.
My number one fear, when I was taking flying instructions, was what to do when I got on the ground, not the actual flying. Life is more dangerous on the ground.
14:52 Kelsey, you’re spot on. This is EXACTLY the technique one uses to confirm foreign language statements you “sort of understand” from a foreign language speaker. Based on what you THOUGHT you heard, you try to state it back to them in the form of a narrow question (focused but limited use by you of the language) to try to get a YES/NO. If it is a NO, you ask a narrow but different question, and repeat the process iteratively, until you get a CONFIRMATION.
This actually reminds me of a big mistake I made when I was a freshly minted private pilot. Taxi for departure at KCMI, I was given instructions to 32R at A5, and was cleared for an intersection takeoff. I got confused and thought I was cleared to 32L, so I crossed 32R and came nose to nose with a big twin. Luckily the ground controller sorted me out, but I could feel the irritation in his voice. He never gave me a number to call though. This taught me a lesson to ask when in doubt.
@@JimMork sometimes like in this video, they just say R, or L... which can probably get tough to tell the diff between with how shit quality ATC radios seem to be.
@@KaiHenningsen From experience trying to learn spanish, i also know the pain of trying to figure out where the breaks are in a foreign language. So, while we might think atc is speaking at a normal pace, that could be far too fast for someone to understand, especially over radio quality.
@@KaiHenningsen Wow. Forgot all about that. Kelsey has spoken of being cautious with terms in Asia. But a WORD, like romeo might be understood everywhere. I mean, if aviation is going to be global, it has to work everywhere.
Yes. Talk super fast using a dialect that even as an American i struggle to follow, rather than just slowing down for a moment and ensuring understandable communication.
I recall a pilot/JFK dispute on UA-cam years ago where ATC told the pilot he was “klidderla”. When the pilot asked him to repeat the instruction he again said “klidderla”. ATC became irate at the repeated requests but the pilot demanded that he pronounce “cleared to land” properly and not “klidderla”. He did then say “cleared to land” (reluctantly)and the pilot continued with his approach 😊
Sometimes, reusing the same sequence of words, which were not understood the first time, just maintains the confused status quo. When I detect that what I'm saying isn't being understood, I try to vary my words, their order, their intonation--something. This ATC continues to parrot the same exact, rather fuzzy sequence of words that are not sinking in at the other end. Yes, the pilot(s) should have read all their notes before arriving at JKF, but the controller isn't helping.
There are rules about what can and cannot be said by ATC and pilots over the radio, how to give and receive instructions, etc. - there are procedures for this. I'm not sure how much leeway they have without breaking these procedures.
4L (four left) is a hell of word combination for non-native speakers' ears. It could be easily mistaken for 'for left', which makes no sense for a native speaker but can be very confusing for non-natives. If the controller would have said 'runaway 4L' it would make things much easier...
@@ivansemanco6976 Fairly common at JFK. There is only so much room on the taxiways, so they often use inactive runways as taxiways, especially if there's construction happening on the airside.
One thing I like about England is that in public communications speakers most use "received pronunciation." When announcements are made over PA systems and train stations in airports, the speakers are easily understood by anyone who speaks English . When I listen to New York controllers with their rapidfire New York pronunciations I understand why foreign pilots have a hard time understanding them. I am an American, and I find them sometimes find them hard to understand.
I'm an American and I've visited the UK. I would not say all announcements were done in RP. Maybe not even a majority. Pre-recorded announcements were pretty good, but a live announcement? Nope. I could hear plenty of variation. Also: British pronunciation of various words and place names is different than what we might default to if we've never heard of a name before. If you aren't familiar with a place name, you might not match the pronunciation with the location. "Southwark", "Gloucester Road", "Greenwich", "Borough", "Chiswick Park", "Ruislip" are all names that might throw an American or non native English speaker.
For me, I have a hard time understanding the "Queen's English" when spoken over the PA like that. Honestly, I've more easily understood PA announcements in France than some of the ones I've heard in the UK!
I listened to many of your videos and what never ceases to amaze me is the primary communication between controller and pilot is the spoken word. It is easy enough to misunderstand someone who is speaking right in front of you in a quiet room, but what is amazing is that any pilot understands anything once it is transmitted by voice radio. I think it would be much better to have a dedicated system that communicates between pilot and controller in both the written word and a graphical interface (like a HUD on a car's navigation system). Combine that with computer control of the airplane, and then the pilot has to just watch over the system to make sure it is working, rather than directly fly the plane or manually navigate around an airport. It seems like a computer controlled system that includes flying the plane and driving around airports could reduce accidents, both in the air and especially on the ground.
Scientists study the methods and weaknesses of spoken word. I even did a course through my job back in the 80s. Fascinating. They construed it as a cybernetic process. One key aspect: What do you understand versus what did the other person mean. Just because you got the WORDS is anything but a guarantee you are now thinking the same thoughts. Verbal communication inherently is error prone.
@@clutchmaticthere was the southern private pilot flying a twin in New York airspace, clearly not used to the rapid fire clearances he was getting from New York Approach. After one very fast complicated vector he responded "New Yawk a-pproach, Baron N1234, was all that stuff you all just said impo-tant?". I always imagine the controller's head exploding at that point.
A controller with an Eastern European accent on JFK ground control the other day and she was incredible, the place was running like clockwork with slightly slower, clear, english.
Hi Kelsey. I am a Falcon 50 and Falcon 900 pilot and a retired air traffic controller. I have commented before on your channel so I hope you remember me. This is the first time I have ever heard you say something that is completely wrong. I was a controller for 35 years. I worked 3 different towers, including JFK, and I was in the New York Center where I worked the KZNY oceanic area. There is not a single tower where ramp control is “sitting next to the ground controller” in the USA. Ground, local ( called tower on the frequency) and clearance delivery are in the tower, which is usually an FAA facility. Ramp control is not staffed by controllers. They are airline or sometimes municipal employees in a separate facility located at the terminal building. At terminal 4 at JFK ramp control is run by the Port Authority, and they are physically located on the 7th floor of the 36 story tall tower structure. In your graphic, it is clearly visible sticking out about halfway up the tower. They are notorious for poor planning of ramp traffic. At many airports you will see what looks like a small tower cab on the roof of a pier or finger where the gates are. There is usually little to no communication between the tower and the ramp at most airports. Every airport is a little different. Ramp areas are “non movement areas”. The ground controller taxis the plane to whichever ramp, and the pilot calls ramp control upon leaving the movement area for gate assignment and as some places which taxi lane to use. Taxiways are controlled by ground on the movement area, and taxi lanes are not controlled by ground because they are in the non movement area. Most control towers have a poor to no view of the various ramps and would be a terrible place for ramp control. I don’t know why you would think that they would be up there. At DFW for example, they have 2 FAA towers. An east and a west tower. They are both more than a mile from the ramp areas. Look closely at the terminal and you will see several ramp control cabs on the roof of the terminal buildings at the gate areas. As was pointed out by someone else in the comments, JFK evolved over time. The passenger terminals are in a central circle surrounded by perimeter taxiways. Taxiways alpha and bravo. When I first started working JFK tower, I was told by my instructors to keep the perimeters clear so as not to gridlock the airport. The controller in your video wanted the plane to wait for his gate on Runway 4L for this reason. Ground clearly “owned” the runway, and any inactive runway is available as a taxiway. KBOS does this all the time as an example. I appreciate the apprehension instilled in you by a mentor you had, and you would be wise to verify the instruction before proceeding onto the runway, but I think that pilot wasn’t exactly right about the use of the runway for taxing or holding either. Let me give you some inside information about a nationwide ATC procedure designed to prevent active runway incursions and any confusion among controllers as to which runway is active and which is not. The FAA implemented a policy where each tower would make runway ownership strips. The controller who has the strip in their strip bay owns the runway. If a controller does not own a particular runway, that controller has to get permission from the controller who owns it to cross or use that runway. I also don’t understand why you think JFK is not “fixing” its deficiencies. There is a massive construction project just getting started. Terminal 3 was torn down, opening up more ramp space for bi directional traffic in the alleyways around terminal 4. Terminal 1 and 2 is undergoing major renovations and there may be a plan to tear down terminal 2 and replace it with a new terminal east of the present terminal so that there would be a 2 way alleyway for terminal 1. In the next few years there will be a lot of changes. I just wanted to put this information out there. The other 90% of what you said is spot on. I have been doing a lot of flying in the Caribbean, and I just completed my first flight in Europe. I flew 4 legs in Europe in or over 6 different countries, so I can appreciate what you were saying, especially concerning briefing risk factors. Interesting being the “foreign” pilot on the frequency. The preverbal shoe on the other foot.
@@spencerlanman4011You are welcome! There actually is a relatively new program where the Port Authority meters pushbacks to minimize congestion on the taxiways. They do not coordinate with the tower. For arrivals, I forgot to mention that the Port Authority only controls the terminal 4 ramp. American controls terminal 8 ramp, JetBlue controls terminal 5 ramp, and so on. None coordinate with the tower. This is an added complexity at JFK that Kelsy and most pilots are unaware of.
As a native English speaker from the UK I struggle to make out what the controller is saying. I can't imagine how hard it must be for a non native speaker, especially under pressure (+possible fatigue) in an airport with unusual set up. I feel it would be much safer to slowy and clearly say the directions once the controller hears there might be communication issues. That being said, it would also make sense for pilots to make sure they are ready to receive fast instructions in English before landing too. All around seems dangerous. (Including the waiting on a runway)
English is my first and only language. I'm only able to decipher 2 out of every 5 words spoken by the ATC. Too fast and not clear. Perhaps some training in clear speech is needed.
@@jefftoll604 I'm not a native speaker but I'm also not bad with english. Hearing the ATC made me kinda doubt everything. But I'm glad that even you can't understand him xD .
If you are not a pilot you would find it difficult to understand ground conversations. It is also important to understand the layout of an airport BEFORE you get to that airport. Grab a copy of JFK airport and nist look how many taxiways there are!!
I totally agree with what Kelsey said about what the old pilots said about 'you never want to get onto a runway unless you are taking off or landing'. I am not a pilot but am a risk manager in very complex high risk situations and telling a plane to turn onto and then go along or even holding on a runway to get somewhere else is just screaming 'unnecessary risk' and 'avoid'. In risk management the concept of probability and potential impact of a bad outcome is front and centre. I know planes do cross runways and there have been terrible accidents or near misses in the past. Surely, telling a plane to turn onto and hold on a runway should be a last resort and an extreme exception. I know experienced pilots on here will likely tell me 'we do this all the time' but familiarity is a major contributor to catastrophic risk outcomes.
I gather that 4L is only used as a taxi-way when the active runways are 32 L & R (if I recall the number), and that there are hand-offs so each group of controllers knows which sections it can use.
You are right. Flying is easier than taxiing. JFK is notorious for confusing directions, ground control and ramp control are not coordinated. When i was confronted by Ground against Ramp I set the brakes and told them : guys, you need to sort ths out and then tell me where to go. The Ground controller reacted upset, but did it. It took a few minutes, but we were finally cleared in to the ramp with no issues. I also fly for LATAM, and my English is ICAO 6, nonetheless I believe few pilots would have the confidence to stop and demand for clear instructions. Thanks for the video. And to other pilots. always review your charts before landing and dont be afraid to request clear instructions.
*My biggest fear in wanting to get my pilot's license* is not being able to clearly hear instructions given by ATC, _even in English-speaking countries._ Even on UA-cam using my Sony bluetooth headphones, I can't make out words occasionally and have to fall back on auto-captions for a second opinion, so that really kills my confidence on being able to hear ATC clearly on the crazy staticky and low-fidelity aviation communications.
Never rely on memory, write things down and read back from your writings. This is the while purpose of a read back. Once you read back correctly to a controller, they can divert their attention to other aircraft. JFK is very busy airport and since you cant backup, it is important you LISTEN carefully
I have the same issue, but something that helped me a lot the last few months is to listen to several different versions of atc communications of the same stage of flight, so you know what to expect and when to expect to hear something. For example, try listening to some different flight clearances of different flights. Listen to different takeoff clearances, etc... you'll start to know what informations to expect to be given and as you already expected, you easily read it back. Of course sometimes you'll have some unusual communications, and you need to have a good english to understand them well, but for the usual and fast communications this tip might help
I am grateful there are professionals that understand how all of these systems work. I can barely muster the cognitive ability to find the airport, park, get through TSA, and find the correct gate. Making it onto the right plane and into my assigned seat fills me with such a giddy sense of accomplishment that I wanna call someone and brag about it.
I mean, I'm no professional, but leave me on the apron and I can find my way around no problem. Leave me inside the terminal and I'm bound to get lost. I don't know IATA codes and for whatever reason, the gate numbers inside are always different than the stands outside.
If only US ATC people would talk more slowly and clearly. Big respect for any international pilots flying there trying to understand them as non native speakers.
Totally agree. Back when I was flying international cargo I would be out of the US for sometimes weeks at a time. It was always nerve wracking to come back stateside and have controllers speaking a mile a minute in some regional dialect, esp. ORD and JFK. Often times I think the controllers have an attitude and it affects the communication process.
I suspect some of the speed of speech is due to number of planes stacked up in sky. Also it is cultural, new yorkers all seem to be in a hurry and talk fast. Buying a symphony ticket, shopping in a store, asking for directions, you have to be fully focused because the answer is coming back very fast and may have an accent. For a mid westerner it is almost like going to another country.
@@suesmith5746 Flightaware blows my mind showing so MANY planes going both directions from the American continent and Europe. Now luckily, the majority probably DON'T terminated in New York, but with that number of westbound flights, you know a problem is necessary in the New York area. That's why I think nonstops from Europe to the Midwest are helpful.
You say "US". JFK is not the world's busiest airport or even the busiest in its own country. So maybe controllers with even greater workload actually do the job better? I'd be curious. Kelsey should debrief controllers at LAX or Atlanta or Chicago. Could be a "New York thing" Maybe this controller gets his speech and attitude from his place of residence? More a question than a theory. I refused to visit New York. We had a day there, and I holed up in my rented room. I don't get the fascination people have with that city. So I resist any judgment of the USA by New York being an example.
Kelsey, I'm going to weigh in here. I grew up in Bergen County, NJ, about 45 minutes from JFK. Even I have a hard time understanding these controllers' version of 'English'. Let's place the blame squarely where it lies. These controllers need to stop clipping their words, learn and use the "Mid-Atlantic English" dialect when communicating with pilots that are having trouble understanding them. As a US taxpayer, I believe that this should be the standard in the interest of safety, and these highly compensated controllers need to be held to that standard. It isn't difficult to take a step back, and take an extra 1-2 seconds to slow down, think about what that pilot needs, and deliver it. Especially when they're paid.. no, OVERpaid to do exactly that.
I couldn't agree more. I'm an English private pilot. I fly in the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands etc, but never in the USA. Listening to the American controllers, they are worst I have heard and I wonder if they have the same brief as those in the UK. In the UK, the controllers' duty is "to ensure the safe and efficient conduct of flight". How can speaking at five times normal speed (as the American controllers seem to want to do) be designed to achieve a safe result? Many pilots in America get confused and this can lead to very dangerous situations. Why has the FAA not dealt with this obvious safety issue??
I was looking to see if anyone said this! 👍🏾Whilst I understood the instruction delivered, I do find US ATC speak incredibly quickly to the point where sometimes I don't catch everything. I also understand why they speak quickly and that if you frequently fly over there, over time you'd get used to it. However, I think as well as all he did to try and get them to understand he could have spoken s l o w e r, once realising there was a lack of understanding. I also don't understand why their understanding of English, the pilots, was so poor. Isn't aviation speech universally English (generally speaking) That lack of understanding could be very costly on the ground and in the air 😕
I think sheer disbelief could have caused these pilots to turn onto Bravo instead of 4L. Like, they were thinking, "He _can't_ be telling us to stop on a runway, no-one would do that!" In my case, that wouldn't even be a conscious thought; it's taken many years for me to learn to recognize that I even have such thoughts.
I'm "just" a truck driver. On and of for last 30 years between other jobs like crane operator or heavy forklifts. Ive passed those 30 years without any major insedents cause i listen and learn from other people that has been in bad spots. Listen and learning from other people is good education. I belive Kelsey here is learning from everything he puts out here. And that is going to make him one of the safest pilots on the ground and in the air. I'm 50 now and i love planes. These Videos realy makes me want to take the final leap and go for a PPL. Keep up the good work, you inspire a lot of people. Sorry for my bad English.. not my native language.
At one of the Air Force bases I was assigned to, had parking for 80 large aircraft. We always used a follow me truck to guide the pilots to their spot. At overseas bases, where our pilots are not familiar with, a follow me truck was highly recommended.
I remember a Follow Me truck at my old base as well (and it was only used occasionally, and mostly when a plane was going to park somewhere like Hazardous Cargo), but we had only a small fraction of the amount of traffic JFK has. We maybe had 15 or 20 flights a day. A military base that doesn't share with a civilian side will never come close to being as busy as JFK.
Not sure why this is amusing, but imagine a fleet of tow trucks moving those giant machines around. And that'd be ANOTHER independent crew. And somebody in the control tower would be on yet another frequency. I still say a supercomputer could manage just about all of this. A tow truck with a tablet computer could get a list of planes and their destinations, like today's cab drivers get riders and their locations. The PLANES have computers. And managing the airport is an even bigger job. My IT career makes me biased.
I read way too many Follow Me Truck jokes last time I read Chicken Wings comic archives. "I know it took me ages to get here. It took ages for the Follow Me truck to come past here!" @@JimMork Supercomputer? You haven't seen my OpenTTD games I used to run on a mid-00s Sempron. Or I used to play small maps -- but still much more complex than a large airport -- on a 416MHz StrongARM with 64MB RAM. OpenTTD's pathfinding is something else! Granted, it could get gridlocked if I wasn't careful designing the transport network. I guess predicting and avoiding gridlock could take a lot more power.
I don''t speak Portuguese but I have some Spanish and I can see in some instances that the Brazilian pilots were using English vocabulary and Portuguese grammar. That has the potential to flip questions into declarative sentences.
Im actually Brazilian and I have spoken English most of my life, I learnt it as a little kid. The past 7 years I have worked in a 5 star hotel attending mostly to English speaking customers. There is something about this radio transmission that even READING what Im supposed to be hearing, I dont get it. I dont think the controller is speaking any faster than Im used to hearing the language however there is something here that is a bit harder than usual for me to understand. I gonna show this to my coworkers and my brothers to see if they agree with me. Thanks for the awesome content as usual!
JFK controllers really hit different lmao. He def could have gone a little slower, but Kelsey is right, he is already going very slow compared to normal 😅
@@arjunyg4655 Any chance it is workload? I rant about the number of planes flying every day. The controllers are like first line in ER. Whatever crap comes their way, they can't duck. I anticipate burnout. I have seen career change in similar situations.
That something is called, “aviation phraseology.” I can talk “hotel speak” all day long and my friends don’t understand it. For some reason, people expect professionals not to use industry terminology. 🤷♂️
If the ramp indeed cleared them "VIA HOTEL INTO RAMP" (17:30) then we can understand why they wanted to go via hotel and not 4L. They were getting conflicting instructions from the ground controller and ramp.
I've recently switched to a job with a lot more travelling, and your videos have really made me appreciate the whole airport side of things a lot more. Such as why delays happen and why it sometimes seems you spend ages rolling around the airport before take off or after landing.
I am English. Not a pilot. No hearing impediment or other problem understanding my language. BUT, I can not understand half of the rapid-fire poor pronunciation of some of the traffic controllers on your vlogs. Its no surprise to me that a foreign native would be confused.
English is my native language. When I first started my private pilot training I could hardly understand the controllers at my airport. Fortunately, after flying around five times you start to know what controllers will say before they say it, also I have noticed that controllers generally format the way they say certain things the same way every time so it's a lot easier to understand.
Guarantee you, that controller knew exactly what was happening at every moment. He could have slowed down and he could have rephrased the instructions but he is simply fed up and tired of having to repeat himself and give special handling to incompetent pilots. He is sending a clear message that this crew needs to improve their English language skills. He knows what they are saying and doing, exactly. He is just allowing this problem to grow and be obvious. He is tired of the same problems that never seem to get fixed. And I see his point. The language issue is a big problem and a major safety issue.
@@eltomas3634 if your assumptions are correct, the controller needs retraining. He should be able to perform in a stress-resistant professional manner, and put safety first at all times. When he comes across incompetent aircrew there is a separate system in place for addressing that. It helps nobody if he gets overtly annoyed and starts making critical comments in the middle of a poor situation. In the end, the passengers and other airport staff must be protected from excess risk.
@terryross1754 well, it's probably less paperwork and it probably did cause the crew to at least acknowledge their incompetence with simple English taxi instructions. And some might say it was less professional, but I would say it was effective. Others would say it might be discriminatory or in this day and age, even raaaycist if he wrote a report about unsafe english skills.. And the controller probably wasn't out to ruin someone's career, he just wanted them to do what they are supposed to do, which is understand, read, and speak English. Paperwork is not always the best medicine.
@@bunkbed16 But they don't in the US - lots of short-cuts and non-standard terminology. I would say that "Are you cleared in" is not standard terminology, and it is also unhelpful. "Confirm" would be standard terminology, but why not: "TAM8180 heavy has ramp control cleared you to enter the ramp"? I bet they would have understood that.
Hi...I am a pilot, a retired air traffic controller, and now work at ramp control. I have worked at many large congested airports in the tower, approach controls, and now my first ramp tower. Just an FYI...ramp control never sits next to the ground controller. Not even in the same building. Keep up the good work tho sir I enjoy your channel!
I am a native American English speaker and have a co-worker from Cuba who is helping me learn Spanish that is related to my job. I work in the public sector and not required to know any other languages but 1) Spanish is common where I live, and I want to provide better service to the people in the community I serve. 2) Knowing some key Spanish and being able to communicate basic ideas will make my job easier. 3) It's fun. I have a limited vocabulary but I do my damndest to not sound like a gringo and I'm getting good at rolling the "R". My co-worker is teaching me how to swear in his language and I am teaching him a lot of American slang he isn't familiar with.
Good catch on the brazilian accent. As a brazilian, they´re totally brazilian. But thats no excuse to not understand whats being said on the radios - it´s pretty clear.
English is my first language, my hearing is fine, but I had about as much trouble understanding the tower as I did the pilots. If I were the pilots I think I would have died of anxiety.
It's mind blowing that there isn't a computer program that queues the planes and lets the air traffic control know what stage in the system a plane is. Everyone keeps saying how safety conscious aerospace is but the more i learn about it, the more i feel like no one thinks to question things that don't work well.
@@musicalaviator With other modes of transportation, such things exist. In the train world they have side tracks when trains going in opposite directions can't both use the main track.
Agree. Everything in flight is push this button, twist this knob. But on the ground with all the danger, a crew of people with those name things are managing and radioing to make everything happen. What age are we in anyway? What can you do with your phone? It mi ght be smarter than air traffic control.
I was once deadheading on an Air France flight to Heathrow. At TOPD the English controllers gave a complicated bunch of descent,speed and holding instructions which bamboozled the French pilots. After some tense exchanges the controller threatened to send them back to French airspace if they couldn't get it right. I knew exactly what the controller wanted so asked the captain if he wanted me to do the radio, which he was grateful for. English ATC saw the funny side as a native speaker came on the radio and off to Heathrow we went. As for JFK, for those of us who don't operate there regularly its often not easy, even for us native speakers.
Before or after Brexit. That Heathrow is the opposite of De Gaulle. Pilots have to manage power in descent to keep the noise down over urban London. In places like CDG, they are remote from urban Paris. Maybe less traffic, too, I don't know, but London seems like another place where flights could terminate outside London and passengers reach the city by rail, more or less like I said about flying to Hartford and riding Acela anywhere south. They should have a regional travel authority to manage regional landings and takeoffs.
I landed into O’Hare this morning which is much the same as JFK, Ground and Ramp are two separate entities and one has to coordinate between two frequencies (Ground & Ramp) to access the Ramp. Heavy traffic congested frequencies added with fast and heavy American accents and attitudes to boot always make for a tense experience and reduced safety margins. Why on earth can’t Ground and Ramp work together as one team as in most international airports is beyond me.
I still see this as nutty. Maybe subcontracting at a construction site makes economic sense, but dealing with multiple authorities at a busy airport defies logic.
With experience one learns what the topic of conversation should be at any point and with that context it becomes much easier. Definitely a learned skill. It’s quite common for private pilots who learned in relatively desolate areas to be overwhelmed by the radio when they start flying in high-traffic zones.
1983, flying an ATA 707 in from Europe I could not understand the controller as his "New York" accent was so thick. I kept asking him to repeat and he said "You've got to understand if you want to play with the big boys'! I said "If you would speak English I could"! "I want a phone number"!
Even people whose native language is English have difficulty understanding the controllers and pilots. I knew I could never be a pilot when I, by the recommendation from my flight instructor, started listening to the communications between pilots and the tower from outside the airfield.
I have to disagree a little bit. First the controller is not easy to understand because he speaks with no separation. 4 left sounds like forklift. I listened to this several times on both this and another platform and I never did understand every word the controller said, and I’ve spoken English for 68 years. There’s no separation of words until he gets upset. Second his compartmentalized culture and work ethic both of where he lives and the airport makes the situation dangerous. He can’t think outside of the box. He just wants what he wants.
I speak English (🇦🇺)as a first language and you’re 100% right, the controller is literally speaking too fast and his words are blending into each other. I struggle to comprehend him.
I think I have heard the same controller in other videos getting irritated with other pilots because they don’t quite understand what he is saying, and does not make the effort to speak slower and more clear. I also think that a controller should be there to try and be more helpful and not only bark orders. I liked when the pilot of the Brickyard 5627 helped on the situation
Kelsey, I must say that you yourself have actually expressed what may have been an underlying factor to the confusion the LANTAM pilots suffered - that is - the reluctance to be taxying onto a runway and to hold. They may well have been thinking to themselves - that cant be right? In all my years of flying into the USA as a pilot for a foreign carrier I have never been instructed to enter and hold on a runway upon arrival, but have been cleared to enter a runway to utilise a short segment of the runway to get to an area where we coukd hold because our gate was not available. This happened only a few weeks ago going into Chicago, but the controller was very precise in using standard phraseology, particularly a specific clearance to enter the runway which allayed any doubt as to what was required. The controller also added a plain language description of what he had in mind for us so that we had a shared mental model. I think he was also considerate of the 16 hours we had spent in the air knowing how fatigued we were likely to be.
I can’t tell you enough how much I love your channel. Kelsey you are so awesome at what you do 🎉. I’ve been learning so much since I started watching your videos. Blessings and always safe travels to you and your crew. Tons of love and respect, Carlos ✝️🙏❤️😊🇺🇸
There's another component to this. I am a native English speaker, and *I* can't understand the instructions. For me, they are speaking entirely too fast. It was only after you clarified what they were saying that it made sense. Runway came out Run-a, for instance. That's important. As someone with hearing loss, I am always solving puzzles based on vowels, consonants, whatever my ears hear. For a non-native speaker, I can't imagine it's much different. Not only do they need to learn the words they are going to use, they need to learn how to understand them when spoken quickly. Hopefully, they listen to controllers and pilots speaking back and forth at different airports. Or maybe that's just my idealism talking, and not reality. I'd think it would be tremendously helpful, though. Thank you for what you do, Kelsey. You educate some of us who are not pilots, will never be pilots, who are simply curious about everything. Thank you. :)
The only component here is that you suffer from hearing loss. Everything else you said was emotionally driven anecdote. If you suffer from hearing loss you probably shouldn't be judging the intelligibility of audio.
@@colormedubious4747 Then they should hire more controllers. No one should be expected to understand that auctioneer-like gibberish, even more so when various accents/nationalities could be involved, and especially when so many people’s lives depend on it.
A question to those who know: - Comparing 1970s in aviation to our days, airplane technology, airport systems, expertise from incident analysis, have all improved enormously. Why has radio communication in aviation (sound quality, margin for misunderstanding, differences in terminology/jargon between nations) seemed to lag behind, hardly improve at all?
As a Brazilian airline pilot I’d never think to taxi on a runway unless I am specifically cleared to enter it for taxing purposes. Empathy is much needed in a situation like that, specially if you’re an ATC dealing with foreign pilots carrying around 300 passengers at your airport seeing that they’re having issues understanding you. Stick to the standard icao doc 9432 phraseology, speak slower, speak clearer! If we all stick to the ICAO standards we ought to understand each other quite clearer! Big hugs from Brazil! You’re all most welcome here
Standardised radio operation exists for a reason. So people hear what they expect to hear when they expect to hear it. If you start adding random filler words and modify them, everything goes to hell. Like saying fox instead of foxtrot, or even worse using different words all together.
I agree. As a Canadian even I have issues at times in places like LGA/JFK/BOS etc. The American controllers don't follow standard ICAO phraseology, in the air as well. Americans always have to do things different and it's pretty annoying.
I think that's where the Controller could have improved the situation, for sure. He's issuing a non-standard directive, and he could clarify that it's non-standard. "Left turn on Golf, *_cleared to taxi onto runway 4L_* , left turn taxi on 4L, hold short Foxtrot, expect left turn off 4L at Foxtrot when you confirm you are cleared into the ramp."
I agree that navigating an airport is far more difficult than navigating in air. I always have my EFB with geo-referenced airport plates on when taxiing around any airport. For compraison, there are some routes where I never look at the EFB in flight because its such a simple and obvious routing. I feel fortunate to have learned to fly at a field with a very cranky controller. (There are UA-cam videos of him). I learned to confirm, question, assert myself, and reject clearances because of him.
I'm an American and have lived in the US my entire life. I am also an instrument-rated private pilot who owns my own Cessna 182. I have never had problems understanding ATC at Airports, but I have had issues understanding ATC in the "Centers" and the "Tracon" facilities all over the southeast. I remember a controller working at "Indy Center" who I could not understand his words. I was not the only one either. He was working low altitude and there was not much activity on the freq, still, he had to speak like there was. Another pilot and this controller were about to lock horns when finally a female voice came on the freq. I could hear her and went on to my destination Airport.
@@TheAsheybabe89 Well I challenge you to look up the Indianapolis air route traffic control center and look at their coverage map. Because I was in Kentucky that day headed to Lunken Airport in Ohio. Last I heard people refer to Kentucky as a southeastern state!
This is an amazing video, you have explained everything so well which is one of the reasons why I enjoy your videos so much. I could not be a pilot simply for the reason that I can't understand the Controllers because they talk way to fast for me. You are so knowledgeable about all aspects of aviation. I have learned so much from you in the short time that I've been watching your videos. I have just recently taken up the hobby of Plane Spotting watching it all take place on UA-cam. And I have found frequencies of the Air Traffic Controllers at different airports to listen to them and try to understand all of what they are saying. Thanks again for sharing your videos, keep them coming.
In my opinion ground controller said "turn left on 4L" too quickly every time. There are three actions in his message and thus rhythm of speech and emphasis on actions would help a lot.
In regards to the first part: You gotta appreciate Kennedy Steve how he started to speak very slowly and started to emphasize the important things once he noticed that the pilots were not native english speakers and had a hard time understanding the instructions. Ie. "Taxi to G O L F, H O L D S H O R T of X Y Z". I think these pilots got very confused and concerned to taxi onto a runway. Something normal in JFK but unusual almost anywhere else.
It always surprises me that not more incidents/accidents happen because of the verbal interaction between the pilots and the controllers special when there is static. I guess an accident needs to happen (again like Tenerife) before measures are taken like an automatic speech conversion to an electronic instruction in the cockpit on a display and vice versa.
The fact that the local pilots are helping out while the controller just doesn’t seem to care is insane. How are the local pilots more helpful than the controller lol
Ground Control only cares about whether Ramp cleared them in. Ground control cannot listen to 2 radio frequencies all day every day. That is just not a thing a normal person can handle. Even if someone could handle the job listening to 2 frequencies, there is too much of a risk that both are in use and separating what 2 different people are saying requires a savant. Even if there was some crazy good controller, I wouldn't trust it.
@benjambreeg - not 'local' pilots. Republic Airlines, AKA "Brickyard" is based out of Indianapolis, IN. That is good old fashioned Midwestern "look out for your neighbor" and hospitality coming through.
Keep in mind we here are only hearing the communications with this one pilot while the ATC (ground or whichever) is dealing with alllllllll the others as well. The other local pilots are also only dealing with ATC and can listen in. Between communicating with this one pilot/aircraft, ground probably juggled at least a dozen other aircraft between each instruction.
@@Kishandreth You're right it's not normally a ground controllers jobs to listen to multiple frequencies but... Listening to multiple people/frequencies is a common controller skill and they learn it while in training. I know I was a controller for about a year (I decided not to do the job anymore, too stressful). It's called a "room ear" and it is called that because they can hear and understand multiple conversations going on at once. I could sit in the middle of a busy restaurant and clearly hear and understand 4+ different conversations around me. Radar controllers do this very often when different positions are "combined" such as late at night when it is not as busy and one controller covers multiple areas.
Last I checked, New York has never been home of the most friendly folk, I’m surprised I don’t hear “hey watch it, I’m flyin here” over comms more there 😆
At 10:45 the controller says "I have no idea what you are saying". This perfectly summarises _exactly how the Malaysian pilots feel._ It might sound perfectly clear to a native American what the controller said but I can tell you even once he slowed right down he is _not speaking clearly._ He is gabbling, mumbling, swallowing half of some words. *The whole point of the ICAO alphabet is to make communication clearer* and here we have someone who might as well have used sign language for some of what he says. "Runway" came out as a single-syllable _ru-a_ at one point and "Juliet" was _mumble,_ just two examples that jumped out at me. Without the transcript on screen I would have been even more lost than those pilots, and English is my home language, just not New Yorkese English. Yeah, eventually the controller slowed down and enunciated a _little_ more clearly but by then those pilots were so flustered they couldn't think straight and he was clearly pissed. No it's *_absolutely not_* all on the pilots, and the controller was *_absolutely not_* doing everything he could to help them out. He was doing everything he could _except_ take a breath, calm the fuck down, and start speaking like he was talking to two tired foreigners who were now in a tizzwazz instead of like an irritated father talking to a stubborn 5-year-old.
I served in the Artillery in 1991. Back then, all fire missions was transmitted using radio. At lot of training went in to radio discipline as it was important to get _right_ shells to land at the _right_ time at the _right_ location, _every_ time. Oh, yes, and quickly too. Life depended on that. IMHO that JFK controller sucks. He's trying to do things fast; but ends up doing them slower because he have to repeat - end he didn't even get the correct result.
You never had to deconflict fires with a foreigner, obviously. The controller is 100% competent here. Start communicating with someone who doesn’t speak English and doesn’t know the phonetic alphabet and you’ll quickly realize.
@@afcgeo882 I worked in military exercises with most partnership for peace nations. I know what good clear and still efficient radio communication sounds like. This isn't it
@@afcgeo882 you can rest assured pilots going JFK knows the phonetic alphabet. He is sloppy with his pronunciation, probably because we wants to be quick, but ends up with quiet the opposite result.
@@modquad18 Well, there are at least 2 listening in the cockpit, while controllers must work alone. I did it for decades and the workload is intense and controllers have to spit it out and move on to the next decision and instructions!
As a non pilot, but native English speaker, I had would have had no idea what the initial instructions from the controller were (G,4L, F) without the subtitles. English yes, but...
the ATC should have said things more slowly and clearly at least once! ATC was emphasizing his anger and frustration more than his instructions. Willing to solve the problem and avoid the risk should be the priority, not enforcing some sort of communication power distance.
The ground controller is a very well-known and extremely well respected guy named Steve. He worked and worked to get this right. The LATAM pilots did not understand what he was saying because they're barely fluent in english.
@@apedreusI am not sure when the incident happened but Kennedy Steve retired in 2017 so if this incident was recent it was not him. I have heard this controller in JFK for several recent aviation videos so I am pretty sure it isn't him either way.
As a 1700hrs + Gold Seal CFI, CFII and MEI w/ ASEL, ASES, AMEL & AMES, I am always learning from your videos. Educational and humorous, keep up the great work!
This controller would save a lot of time if he improved his diction and stopped swallowing the ends of his sentences. I'm a native English speaker (Brit) and I have trouble understanding him.
I had flights to jfk, Newark, Miami, Boston. Usually there is a lack of radio discipline in American controllers. They speak, fast, eat words, and with the so called American accent and not aeronautical technical English. Flying to any airport in Great Britain, it’s still English but with perfect timing, clear instructions and proper pace. Even German controllers that have a very different mother language are much more professional in terms of language and talking in the radio then in those airports. Not saying that they don’t know what they do, they do and they are operational, but they lack proper language, proper timing and proper aeronautical English even being the “americano English” their mother language. In Europe there is no need to coordinate with ramp. That is a task for the ground controller. Pilots ar full of work taxiing, doing checklists and usually after long flights. It’s the system it self that is poorly designed, making pilots coordinate airport service. Pilots should pilot. Period. That enough workload.
@@alanclarke8877 I listened to a Dutch controller dealing with a pilot having an engine issue and needing to return to Schihphol. She dealth with it without sounding hurried. And I'm pretty sure Schihpphol is businer than JFK. But maybe JFK draws from places where more jerks live? I've never lived there. But I have a sense that more people live with an attitude there (perhaps NECESSARY in that vicinity?) Considering New York was once "New Amsterdam" that would be an irony.
@@JimMork Some things to consider: Amsterdam usually has a discrete frequency for emergencies. Sometimes the emergency plane just stays with departure, while other departures get another frequency. Also, JFK only uses one ground frequency, because of the airport layout, while Schiphol has like four. I think another problem is just how busy and tightly spaced the New York airspace is.
@@lyaneris To a point. NYC in general just has poor controlling. I hate flying in and out of there, and a lot of other American airports and enroute ATCs have poor phraseology discipline. This coming from a Canadian airline pilot.
Hey Kelsey, I love your videos. I’m a retired ATC (GSP, CVG, COS, D01 [Denver TRACON]), also a 2000hr pilot. A couple of insights that might be of use: it’s not uncommon in certain situations for the cab coordinator to give a runway, or part of it temporarily to ground control for a period of time if it’s more useful as a taxiway at that moment, which can really expedite the movement of ground traffic. Re the coordination between ground and ramp, at the places I’ve worked ramp is worked from a separate tower that is run by the city or the airlines, not FAA, and there’s usually not much real time communication between the two. The controller needing to know if you’ve been cleared in is probably to determine “can I get rid of this guy, or do I need to find a place to hold him” type thing. Keep up the great work!
I wonder why this still is done like 70 years ago. The cheapest satnav in a car is more sophisticated. Show the exact path on a display with the airport map and the controller only has to ask the pilot to follow the route and eventually tell him to stop/ hold or continue...even that can be visualized by a red or green kind of s traffic light on the display.
When I first flew in a 172 decades ago, they were not so concern with hearing losses. I worked on the ramp before that and some of the workers did not bother with their ear protection, they wanted the tough guy image . Those second generation 707s (low by-pass) emit a loud high frequency fan whine at the frontal arc. Many of those guys have near total hearing losses by age 55. In the 172s, they used a speaker located about 2 inches from the pilot's ear, it took me many lessons before I start to get what was coming through the speaker. By year 2000, we have progressed to the point headsets are mandatory, and it is a big improvement. But you still have to kind of expect what the controller will say to you so you can guess the last 10% you did not hear properly. It gets much worse when they are busy.
Apart from non-English-speaking pilots, some JFK controllers do not know how not. know how to speak in clear standard English without "swallowing their words".
I am surprised nobody noticed how I messed up a word while I was talking but anyway thanks for watching.
Probably quite a few of us do pick up on speaking mistakes- I'm the type of person that gets mentally smacked over the head with them when I hear them, but It's not enough of a problem for me to comment on them if I know what you meant- even if they're funny I'd usually just keep them to myself unless I were invited to point them out
That's just because we are too interrational to notice
You mean you don't fly interrational? give it a try I say. sounds interesting.
Well, you speak so much it just becomes redundant noise.
That's only proof that anyone can miss a single "messed up" word among hundreds of other words.
On the other hand, when you're in a conversation with someone and you clearly notice that they make the same mistake over and over again (in this case the pilot most likely completely blocked out the information "runway" for the reason you already guessed), then you can still make an effort to change your tone, so that you stress the part the other party messes up!
Like saying "...TURN LEFT ON R_U_N_W_A_Y F_O_U_R L_E_F_T, I want you to taxi ON THE RUNWAY, and then hold short.....etc"
He instead repeated the entire taxi instructions like 7 times and each and every single time he spoke clearly, however he used the exact same tone for everything, so the pilot heard (falsely) the exact same thing over and over again.
I'd also like to point out that the controller went through the word "runway" within like 0,1 seconds almost every single time and he did the same with the runway's number. So all that pilot heard was probably "...turn left forleft and hold short..."
Anyway, that's my take, I'm proficient enough but no native speaker and these controllers frustrate me so often on UA-cam, that I can't even imagine what it would do to me to be actually speaking to them in order to navigate my ficticious aircraft 😅.
But anyway, that's probably the teacher in me speaking, I'm used to getting beginners to understand something new and/or different. Teaching old d.... ehm... I mean adults to do things differently is an even more difficult task.
But my point is, controllers, especially at places like JFK, should know that and they should be able to "force" the other guy to get what they're saying to them. And that's not done by just hitting "replay" on your own "voice tape".
Cheers.
Pilot wasn't understanding but controller wasn't listening which is worse.
@x74-wh1ti Dang someone is spoofing @74gear!
I think we can all figure out they haven't invited Kelsey to design an airport because having a pilots' lounge with free snacks would bankrupt the airport.
& free breakfast served all day.
@@Anna_Xor I was including breakfast, but yes.
😂
Basically, it’s an airport that feels like Google. Free snacks…everywhere. It’s all about keeping it both fun and productive.
bankrupt and lots of delays.
I'm actually surprised incidents like this one don't happen more often. And by the way, I wish ATC would always say "cannot" instead of "can't". It makes a huge difference .
As an ESL (English as a second language) teacher, I can confirm your point.
As an alternative, they could also say “can’t” like the Brits say it, it’s pretty distinct from “can”.
@@АлишерМакашев-ж1ш For the sake of language barriers its better to keep the words as distinct as possible. Abbreviations can be confusing for those who are not fluent in said language
the correct word is UNABLE.
Current air traffic controller…
Unable, negative, are the words we are taught to use. We are taught to use those first and then use plain English for clarity if those do not work
I am an English speaking pilot. The controller could have said “turn left on Golf, enter Runway 04 left, hold before Foxtrot”. The New York accent, the speed of delivery, the abbreviated words (fox/foxtrot) coupled with non native English speakers and fatigue all made for an accident waiting to happen. it must be remembered by ATC that they are there to help pilots and improve safety … the controller could simply have said “hold position” if he was not happy with communication and made certain that the aircraft had the correct taxi routing established before continuing.
I was expecting to him start yelling: "I'm walkin ovaa heer!"
Nonsense. That ATC was as clear as I’ve ever heard an ATC
@@Jewshiesty6969 If that was clear … good luck when you leave America.
@@Jewshiesty6969 Nope, not that clear and I grew up in NYC.
Also a NYC native - he speaks way too fast for non-native speakers to understand over radio quality . He’s like MTA announcements when there’s a change in service.
I don’t even wanna be on the taxiway too long. You never know when Harrison Ford is flying in.
😂
What is this open mike at the Comedy Store?
@@JimMork you bet it is 👍🏽
or Air Canada
@@JimMork Harrison, is that you? 😁
4L can be interpreted as "for left" which when literally translated into Portuguese is "para a esquerda" which means "to the left". Many Brazilians will translate "vira para a esquerda" literally as "turn for left" when speaking English.
So when the controller says "turn left Golf, left turn_on [pause] Fo(u)r left hold short o'foxtrot" - the Brazilian pilot just heard they had to make a bunch of left turns after turning left on Golf.
After the first time the controller said it like that, the damage was already done.
Sorry, but it's really not that clear to begin with, however much the controller tried to fix it later, because the first thing you heard psychologically sticks with you.
I'm in the business of localization and internationalization, I speak 6 languages, and I'm married to a Brazilian. My job is to flag things like this situation which can be an impediment to good understanding.
Yeah, the controller could have said "... turn left onto runway 4 left..."
@toddsmith8608 Yep, the onus can't be just on INTL pilots to have whatever grasp of English they're supposed to hsve. Plus I wouldn't say the pilots' English is that poor. They were mostly able to communicate about everything else that they would normally encounter at other airports.
So, pilots could've probably used some better prep for JFK, but the controllers there should really come off their high horse a bit too. They're an INTL airport, so they need to do some work to provide an INTL-friendlier service. They are collecting fees after all.
That's very interesting and provides a good explanation. Still, sounds like the pilots shouldn't be allowed to fly international.
@@unpopularopinion8608 he did multiple times after the initial instruction was misunderstood, see the transcript at 7:28
@@unpopularopinion8608 or as a pilot, he should know 4L means runway 4L
My favorite JFK taxiing scenarios are when Ground tells a plane to relay an ultimatum to Ramp that they won't be clearing any more planes out onto their taxiways until Ramp clears them into the ramp. Ground and Ramp have completely opposite priorities, they don't talk directly to each other, and they don't work for the same organization. So the flight crew are like kids mediating a bitter dispute between divorced parents who are not on speaking terms. Conflict is built into the system.
True. I read Ramp get paid more than Ground and are in a separate building.
I have no idea if that's true or not, but I do know this Ramp vs Ground war will continue to cause incidents
"Don't work for the same organization"? Constant surprises in this discussion. Who employs ramp? Now that being said.............many employers have to work with other employers for the mutual benefit. Only tradesmen operate free of coordination. They work with a client.
Yes. Ramp controllers usually work for the airline or company that owns the ramp/terminal, not for the FAA. They even sit in different buildings.
@@JimMorkGenerally, whichever company operates the terminal, employs the ramp controllers, be it the airline or a managing contractor (Swissport, etc.).
@@oldmanc2Ramp controllers get paid FAR less actually.
English is my native language and I still found understanding ATC was the hardest part of my flying experience as a private pilot in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Truth be told, I had enough difficulty understanding the ATC's speaking - every time he gave the instruction, that I would have asked him to repeat slower.
Actually, I very often have a hard time understanding many (maybe even most) controllers even though my English level is very high and has been my sole language for my entire, long life.
I’m a controller here at SCEL, glad to have you here! We would never give a runway involved taxi clearance without a specific “cleared to enter runway 04L, turn left onto 04L and hold short of F”, even when controlling in Spanish due to the rarity of the clearance.
That's exactly what I was thinking. The controller did not explicitly clear them onto the runway, so even as a hobbyist Sim Pilot, that's a red flag to me.
(AFAIK) In Argentina the ground controller would never clear someone into a runway, we have to switch to twr for that. Maybe Brazil has some rules like that too?
Can I ask you a question? Being you are a controller, are notices posted in the control towers that trespass a person from the tower? The controller that was suspected of a stroke or being drunk in Las Vegas that is no longer employed with the FAA.... this dude said that she was trespassed from all control towers in the US via a bulletin that is posted in the flight tower. I thought it was weird to hear that a person is trespassed... seems like a weird usage of the word.... but regardless, can you confirm if that happened?
@@dredwick We don’t have that kind of PERSON NOT ALLOWED posters over here. If a controller messed up he won’t even be able to step into the tower trying to control by its own, so… it’s like the risk mitigates by itself given that we always have a supervisor who knows who is able or not to control.
@@AlejandroGuidotti Hey man, thanks a lot for the response. I didn't think what the guy said made any sense, but he is flooding reddit threads with substantial amounts of conversation regarding the air traffic controller from Vegas that was let go after that incident occurred... I was looking out for any air traffic controllers that I might come across that could shed some light on this type of thing, so I really appreciate your input!
You mentioned about the foreign accent issues and I said to myself, "You are right, that controller does have a bit of a brogue", then I realized you were talking about the pilot :-). The controller was running his own shorthand as well, he said "Fox" instead of "Foxtrot" a few times. One reason the alphabet code is about two syllables is to insure no confusion. Trying to shorten it WILL force confusion. Thanks Kelsey!!!
Americans butcher the english language and have a tendency to want to abbreviate everything. Like just say the whole word ffs.
Scary that these dopes are so ignorant of radio comms🤤
People with poor communication always blame everyone else, I've seen it sooooo many times...
Yeah, and he said “runway” as “runwaa” and managed to make that into a one syllable word.
Props to the pilots for assisting. In today's digital age there is no reason why JFK cannot implement a system where the controller can see clearances in real time, they should review their procedures and not pass on airport clearance duties to pilots.
Props to pilots. Why do pilots get propellers? Most prefer turbofans, called jets.
@@voornaam3191 I guess they're still more useful to pilots. ATC can make do with a small fan, no need for a propeller in the office.
Span of control. It’s a simple reason.
@@zagrizena Yes, ATC men are often bald. Sitting too close to the afterburner.
I was just thinking what an archaic system to use in this day and age. Great opportunity for any entrepreneurs out there. Then you can lease out your solution to all the Airport Authorities.
As a foreigner living in US for 21 years and a fellow pilot, I also have a hard time understanding ATC sometimes. I had times when couldn’t clearly understand ATC instructions and used “say again” some of them seem to be angry at me. Which makes believe that these controllers are showing sign of being overwhelmed and under staff and FAA needs to address that, before a tragedy happens.
Bless
The ATC guy is talking too fast and should have adjusted his speed. IMHO
It's All About Money.
Funding for agencies like the FAA, or Department of Transportation. Or pretty much every agency. Has been cut, and cut again, over and over.
And 99% of the time. It's that Party of Fiscal Responsibility.
AND, Family Values.
That seems to never Value those people and families that depend on everything they cut.
AND,.. THEN THEY BITCH ABOUT IT !!!
... welcome to America 🙄 , vote 💙 , if you want things funded 🇺🇸💙👍
Like alot of law enforcement people ,getting too excited and to powertripping . NYC in general everywhere .
I do not think it is that hard for controllers to speak clearly. And maybe a tiny bit more slowly, clearly enunciating words. Especially for airlines from non English speaking countries. It is called trying, and I doubt it would waste much ATC time. They are currently relying on pilots to add to their workload by interpreting what this lazy speak often sounds like, it is almost a gimmick by the controllers to see how they can slur their words. At the same time, many of these pilots seem unable to understand fairly obvious, logical commands.Turn Right vs. Turn Left should sound completely different to every pilot.
I was arguing with the very controller last week because none of us 3 at the F/D didn’t understand more than 30% and my English is pretty good. And I fly mostly in Asia and Africa, so I’m used to bad English, but this is hard stuff to listen to 😮
My F/O was Australian and the 2nd F/O was from Canada and even they had a very hard time.
agreed ..That controller and a few others need speech therapy .:-)
I'm from Boston and even I can't understand some New Yorkers.
One of my favorite things about you Kelsey, is your humility. Simply saying you might have done this or thought about that, gives any pilot food for thought.
You're an absolute teacher.
Limited judgement, advice that can help everyone from a zero hour student to a multiple thousand hour commercial pilot make this channel a must follow. You're awesome!
My 2 cents worth. I was on the jump seat (ATC famil. flight) of a DC3 (yes, I am showing my age) and a controller I knew read out the METAR VERY fast. The co-pilot turned to me and said "did you get that?". After some discussion I think we all ((3 of us in cockpit)) agreed we only got the runway in use and the QNH.
Lesson 1) for a new ATC - the pilot needs to write this information down, speak at a rate that allows for this. Lesson 2) For any pilot unfamiliar with the airfield/airspace or ESL (english second language) - cut them some slack and be helpful with your information and rate of speak delivery - you won't have to repeat yourself and P people (including yourself) off.
Thanks for calling this one out Kelsey
You know, if you are in a voice call giving very important specifics, you have to ASSUME you might be misheard at the other end. And that is when you SLOW your speech and enunciate. I mean, if a doctor is off shift and gets a call about a patient that might be life or death, he/she would not rattle off stuff lickety-split. Or so one really hopes. Even IN the OR, with someone standing next to you, speed is not the goal.
@@JimMork Excellent, exactly 👏👏👏 Was this dude trying to rush off for lunch? 🙄🙄
@@soggybottom3463 This verbal pattern could be his social norm.
JFK...the airport where pilots go to age 20 years in 10 minutes and the conga line goes on for a mile...Happy Father's Day to all the Dads out there! Have a great week everyone!
once you get into line its not bad, but GETTING into line can be the problem.
JFK isn't an airport, it's a right of passage. If you survive a trip in and out of JFK without someone pissing off the ATC, you might want to buy a lottery ticket.
That's pretty funny. Maybe "too true".
thanks bro, have a great fathers day too from sydney
I was flying out of JFK one Friday night in my Baron and (no exaggeration) I was number 20 for takeoff. The line of rotating beacons seemed endless.
4 things:
1-You are amazing in dissecting this case.
2-So kind of the regional pilot to jump in and help Latam pilot.
3- felt bad for Latam pilot, he could have been using his due diligence by not going into the runaway.
4-Controller need to be more empathetic to pilots and less patronizing. Pilots could be sleep deprived, jet lagged, tired, hungry...etc. so the last thing they want is an irate controller...
Controller didn’t do anything wrong in this video …..
Controllers have minimal team, often on overtime, and understaffed cause nobody wasn't to do the job. Way harder on their side.
If they where properly staffed, then they could empathize.
@@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2None of the above precludes clear diction.
Not to mention many pilots do not speak English as a first language.
It's always a problem both have accents and try to understand each other. Difficult transmissions.
I've found that German, Dutch and Polish controllers among others speak noticeably far clearer and more intelligible English than far too many controllers in The States.
i suppose they have to think about how they are going to pronounce the words before they say it
Like Christopher Walken, and his noticiblebpause when he speaks.
Yesss! I always have to pay extra attention when listening to ATC transmissions from the US compared to the other nationalities you listed.
Murica is the world you see 🌎
You better larn murican yall coz
Thank you Kelsey for saying that taxiing can be more stressful/difficult than actually flying, now I don't feel like such an idiot anymore :D
I just talked to my mother about this (in terms of driving, not aviation).
When you're learning, getting on the Autobahn is very stressful because it's so fast. But now if we're in a very big and busy city with poor road design you breathe a sigh of relief when you can finally get on the Autobahn and don't have to navigate the weird layout.
That’s true for a lot of things. Sailing into a marina is more stressful than sailing offshore. Driving in a walmart parking lot is harder than on the highway
Yes, even an airport with two runways can be more stressful and difficult than expected. Airport diagrams now include "hotspot" markings, which indicate where pilots often make mistakes. Be sure to read the notes about each hotspot, because you could easily make the same errors.
How much automation in taxiing. And past disasters like Tenerife illustrate ground navigation can be lethal on a monstrous scale! Separation aloft is way better than separation on the ground.
My number one fear, when I was taking flying instructions, was what to do when I got on the ground, not the actual flying. Life is more dangerous on the ground.
14:52 Kelsey, you’re spot on. This is EXACTLY the technique one uses to confirm foreign language statements you “sort of understand” from a foreign language speaker. Based on what you THOUGHT you heard, you try to state it back to them in the form of a narrow question (focused but limited use by you of the language) to try to get a YES/NO. If it is a NO, you ask a narrow but different question, and repeat the process iteratively, until you get a CONFIRMATION.
Exactly.
This actually reminds me of a big mistake I made when I was a freshly minted private pilot. Taxi for departure at KCMI, I was given instructions to 32R at A5, and was cleared for an intersection takeoff. I got confused and thought I was cleared to 32L, so I crossed 32R and came nose to nose with a big twin. Luckily the ground controller sorted me out, but I could feel the irritation in his voice. He never gave me a number to call though.
This taught me a lesson to ask when in doubt.
Don't they SAY "thirty-two right". Or is it "thirty-two romeo"?
@@JimMork sometimes like in this video, they just say R, or L... which can probably get tough to tell the diff between with how shit quality ATC radios seem to be.
@@adondriel Especially if you come from a language that doesn't have both of these, like Japanese. They'll sound like the same thing to you.
@@KaiHenningsen From experience trying to learn spanish, i also know the pain of trying to figure out where the breaks are in a foreign language. So, while we might think atc is speaking at a normal pace, that could be far too fast for someone to understand, especially over radio quality.
@@KaiHenningsen Wow. Forgot all about that. Kelsey has spoken of being cautious with terms in Asia. But a WORD, like romeo might be understood everywhere. I mean, if aviation is going to be global, it has to work everywhere.
Yes. Talk super fast using a dialect that even as an American i struggle to follow, rather than just slowing down for a moment and ensuring understandable communication.
I recall a pilot/JFK dispute on UA-cam years ago where ATC told the pilot he was “klidderla”.
When the pilot asked him to repeat the instruction he again said “klidderla”.
ATC became irate at the repeated requests but the pilot demanded that he pronounce “cleared to land” properly and not “klidderla”.
He did then say “cleared to land” (reluctantly)and the pilot continued with his approach 😊
It would save time if ATC slowed down and pronounced clearly instead of having to repeat themselves 3 or 4 times.
Its times like this that i recall how much I miss Kennedy Steve.
Same here--he was one of a kind
YESSSSSSSS!
I think it IS Steve, or it sounds like his twin.
Sometimes, reusing the same sequence of words, which were not understood the first time, just maintains the confused status quo. When I detect that what I'm saying isn't being understood, I try to vary my words, their order, their intonation--something. This ATC continues to parrot the same exact, rather fuzzy sequence of words that are not sinking in at the other end. Yes, the pilot(s) should have read all their notes before arriving at JKF, but the controller isn't helping.
There are rules about what can and cannot be said by ATC and pilots over the radio, how to give and receive instructions, etc. - there are procedures for this. I'm not sure how much leeway they have without breaking these procedures.
@@BannorPhilnot that jfk follows it anyways
The ATC talks at 1000 words a minute, and not clearly, then acts like a jerk when pilots can’t understand him.
This can be easily fixed
4L (four left) is a hell of word combination for non-native speakers' ears. It could be easily mistaken for 'for left', which makes no sense for a native speaker but can be very confusing for non-natives. If the controller would have said 'runaway 4L' it would make things much easier...
In my training here in Europe I was teached to use [fover] instead of [four]. Same reason for [niner] not [nine].
He DID clarify "Runway 4L" but the pilot still didn't get it.
@@colormedubious4747 maybe, problem was that he expect taxi instructions and rwy and taxi doesnt sound OK. Its rare in my opinion.
@@ivansemanco6976 Fairly common at JFK. There is only so much room on the taxiways, so they often use inactive runways as taxiways, especially if there's construction happening on the airside.
@@colormedubious4747 Agree but JFK isnt whole world, so we cant say it standard. One can be surprised with.
When it was obvious that the pilot wasn't understanding the ATC, the ATC talked even faster.
One thing I like about England is that in public communications speakers most use "received pronunciation." When announcements are made over PA systems and train stations in airports, the speakers are easily understood by anyone who speaks English . When I listen to New York controllers with their rapidfire New York pronunciations I understand why foreign pilots have a hard time understanding them. I am an American, and I find them sometimes find them hard to understand.
I'm an American and I've visited the UK. I would not say all announcements were done in RP. Maybe not even a majority. Pre-recorded announcements were pretty good, but a live announcement? Nope. I could hear plenty of variation. Also: British pronunciation of various words and place names is different than what we might default to if we've never heard of a name before. If you aren't familiar with a place name, you might not match the pronunciation with the location. "Southwark", "Gloucester Road", "Greenwich", "Borough", "Chiswick Park", "Ruislip" are all names that might throw an American or non native English speaker.
For me, I have a hard time understanding the "Queen's English" when spoken over the PA like that. Honestly, I've more easily understood PA announcements in France than some of the ones I've heard in the UK!
What, no Liverpool or Yorkshire accent? Bummer.
RP is actually NOT clearer because of the prevalence of non-rhotic Rs.
This ATC is just an example of a dude who needs TO SLOW TF DOWN and PRONOUNCE.
@@The_InfantMalePollockFrancis I suppose the same is true of the Bostonian ATCs. But how about diphthongs in the south?
I listened to many of your videos and what never ceases to amaze me is the primary communication between controller and pilot is the spoken word. It is easy enough to misunderstand someone who is speaking right in front of you in a quiet room, but what is amazing is that any pilot understands anything once it is transmitted by voice radio. I think it would be much better to have a dedicated system that communicates between pilot and controller in both the written word and a graphical interface (like a HUD on a car's navigation system). Combine that with computer control of the airplane, and then the pilot has to just watch over the system to make sure it is working, rather than directly fly the plane or manually navigate around an airport. It seems like a computer controlled system that includes flying the plane and driving around airports could reduce accidents, both in the air and especially on the ground.
Had a similar thought.
Scientists study the methods and weaknesses of spoken word. I even did a course through my job back in the 80s. Fascinating. They construed it as a cybernetic process. One key aspect: What do you understand versus what did the other person mean. Just because you got the WORDS is anything but a guarantee you are now thinking the same thoughts. Verbal communication inherently is error prone.
There is “understanding English” then there is understanding “JFK English.”
New York English is too fast, uses either too much slang and/or too much jargon
@@clutchmaticthere was the southern private pilot flying a twin in New York airspace, clearly not used to the rapid fire clearances he was getting from New York Approach. After one very fast complicated vector he responded "New Yawk a-pproach, Baron N1234, was all that stuff you all just said impo-tant?". I always imagine the controller's head exploding at that point.
Then the controllers should be taught to speak better.
A controller with an Eastern European accent on JFK ground control the other day and she was incredible, the place was running like clockwork with slightly slower, clear, english.
That controller spoke like an auction master with a rag in his mouth.
Hi Kelsey. I am a Falcon 50 and Falcon 900 pilot and a retired air traffic controller. I have commented before on your channel so I hope you remember me.
This is the first time I have ever heard you say something that is completely wrong. I was a controller for 35 years. I worked 3 different towers, including JFK, and I was in the New York Center where I worked the KZNY oceanic area.
There is not a single tower where ramp control is “sitting next to the ground controller” in the USA. Ground, local ( called tower on the frequency) and clearance delivery are in the tower, which is usually an FAA facility. Ramp control is not staffed by controllers. They are airline or sometimes municipal employees in a separate facility located at the terminal building. At terminal 4 at JFK ramp control is run by the Port Authority, and they are physically located on the 7th floor of the 36 story tall tower structure. In your graphic, it is clearly visible sticking out about halfway up the tower. They are notorious for poor planning of ramp traffic. At many airports you will see what looks like a small tower cab on the roof of a pier or finger where the gates are. There is usually little to no communication between the tower and the ramp at most airports. Every airport is a little different. Ramp areas are “non movement areas”. The ground controller taxis the plane to whichever ramp, and the pilot calls ramp control upon leaving the movement area for gate assignment and as some places which taxi lane to use. Taxiways are controlled by ground on the movement area, and taxi lanes are not controlled by ground because they are in the non movement area. Most control towers have a poor to no view of the various ramps and would be a terrible place for ramp control. I don’t know why you would think that they would be up there. At DFW for example, they have 2 FAA towers. An east and a west tower. They are both more than a mile from the ramp areas. Look closely at the terminal and you will see several ramp control cabs on the roof of the terminal buildings at the gate areas.
As was pointed out by someone else in the comments, JFK evolved over time. The passenger terminals are in a central circle surrounded by perimeter taxiways. Taxiways alpha and bravo. When I first started working JFK tower, I was told by my instructors to keep the perimeters clear so as not to gridlock the airport. The controller in your video wanted the plane to wait for his gate on Runway 4L for this reason. Ground clearly “owned” the runway, and any inactive runway is available as a taxiway. KBOS does this all the time as an example. I appreciate the apprehension instilled in you by a mentor you had, and you would be wise to verify the instruction before proceeding onto the runway, but I think that pilot wasn’t exactly right about the use of the runway for taxing or holding either.
Let me give you some inside information about a nationwide ATC procedure designed to prevent active runway incursions and any confusion among controllers as to which runway is active and which is not. The FAA implemented a policy where each tower would make runway ownership strips. The controller who has the strip in their strip bay owns the runway. If a controller does not own a particular runway, that controller has to get permission from the controller who owns it to cross or use that runway.
I also don’t understand why you think JFK is not “fixing” its deficiencies. There is a massive construction project just getting started. Terminal 3 was torn down, opening up more ramp space for bi directional traffic in the alleyways around terminal 4. Terminal 1 and 2 is undergoing major renovations and there may be a plan to tear down terminal 2 and replace it with a new terminal east of the present terminal so that there would be a 2 way alleyway for terminal 1. In the next few years there will be a lot of changes.
I just wanted to put this information out there. The other 90% of what you said is spot on. I have been doing a lot of flying in the Caribbean, and I just completed my first flight in Europe. I flew 4 legs in Europe in or over 6 different countries, so I can appreciate what you were saying, especially concerning briefing risk factors. Interesting being the “foreign” pilot on the frequency. The preverbal shoe on the other foot.
Thanks for the insight. It's a shame the port authority can't work more closely with ATC given the exceptional nature of JFK ground operations.
@@spencerlanman4011You are welcome! There actually is a relatively new program where the Port Authority meters pushbacks to minimize congestion on the taxiways. They do not coordinate with the tower. For arrivals, I forgot to mention that the Port Authority only controls the terminal 4 ramp. American controls terminal 8 ramp, JetBlue controls terminal 5 ramp, and so on. None coordinate with the tower. This is an added complexity at JFK that Kelsy and most pilots are unaware of.
@@markabb1it sounds like an accident waiting to happen
As a native English speaker from the UK I struggle to make out what the controller is saying. I can't imagine how hard it must be for a non native speaker, especially under pressure (+possible fatigue) in an airport with unusual set up. I feel it would be much safer to slowy and clearly say the directions once the controller hears there might be communication issues. That being said, it would also make sense for pilots to make sure they are ready to receive fast instructions in English before landing too. All around seems dangerous. (Including the waiting on a runway)
Yeah, the dude's talking jibber jabber at points, it certainly isn't English.
English is my first and only language. I'm only able to decipher 2 out of every 5 words spoken by the ATC. Too fast and not clear. Perhaps some training in clear speech is needed.
@@jefftoll604 I'm not a native speaker but I'm also not bad with english. Hearing the ATC made me kinda doubt everything. But I'm glad that even you can't understand him xD .
If you are not a pilot you would find it difficult to understand ground conversations. It is also important to understand the layout of an airport BEFORE you get to that airport. Grab a copy of JFK airport and nist look how many taxiways there are!!
Sounded like he had a phallus in his mouth….
I totally agree with what Kelsey said about what the old pilots said about 'you never want to get onto a runway unless you are taking off or landing'. I am not a pilot but am a risk manager in very complex high risk situations and telling a plane to turn onto and then go along or even holding on a runway to get somewhere else is just screaming 'unnecessary risk' and 'avoid'.
In risk management the concept of probability and potential impact of a bad outcome is front and centre. I know planes do cross runways and there have been terrible accidents or near misses in the past. Surely, telling a plane to turn onto and hold on a runway should be a last resort and an extreme exception.
I know experienced pilots on here will likely tell me 'we do this all the time' but familiarity is a major contributor to catastrophic risk outcomes.
I gather that 4L is only used as a taxi-way when the active runways are 32 L & R (if I recall the number), and that there are hand-offs so each group of controllers knows which sections it can use.
You are right. Flying is easier than taxiing. JFK is notorious for confusing directions, ground control and ramp control are not coordinated. When i was confronted by Ground against Ramp I set the brakes and told them : guys, you need to sort ths out and then tell me where to go. The Ground controller reacted upset, but did it. It took a few minutes, but we were finally cleared in to the ramp with no issues. I also fly for LATAM, and my English is ICAO 6, nonetheless I believe few pilots would have the confidence to stop and demand for clear instructions. Thanks for the video. And to other pilots. always review your charts before landing and dont be afraid to request clear instructions.
*My biggest fear in wanting to get my pilot's license* is not being able to clearly hear instructions given by ATC, _even in English-speaking countries._
Even on UA-cam using my Sony bluetooth headphones, I can't make out words occasionally and have to fall back on auto-captions for a second opinion, so that really kills my confidence on being able to hear ATC clearly on the crazy staticky and low-fidelity aviation communications.
Never rely on memory, write things down and read back from your writings. This is the while purpose of a read back. Once you read back correctly to a controller, they can divert their attention to other aircraft. JFK is very busy airport and since you cant backup, it is important you LISTEN carefully
I literally have the exact same fear; just thinking about it makes every orifice pucker up.
I have the same issue, but something that helped me a lot the last few months is to listen to several different versions of atc communications of the same stage of flight, so you know what to expect and when to expect to hear something. For example, try listening to some different flight clearances of different flights. Listen to different takeoff clearances, etc... you'll start to know what informations to expect to be given and as you already expected, you easily read it back. Of course sometimes you'll have some unusual communications, and you need to have a good english to understand them well, but for the usual and fast communications this tip might help
I am grateful there are professionals that understand how all of these systems work. I can barely muster the cognitive ability to find the airport, park, get through TSA, and find the correct gate. Making it onto the right plane and into my assigned seat fills me with such a giddy sense of accomplishment that I wanna call someone and brag about it.
I mean, I'm no professional, but leave me on the apron and I can find my way around no problem. Leave me inside the terminal and I'm bound to get lost. I don't know IATA codes and for whatever reason, the gate numbers inside are always different than the stands outside.
😂🤣
If only US ATC people would talk more slowly and clearly. Big respect for any international pilots flying there trying to understand them as non native speakers.
Totally agree. Back when I was flying international cargo I would be out of the US for sometimes weeks at a time. It was always nerve wracking to come back stateside and have controllers speaking a mile a minute in some regional dialect, esp. ORD and JFK. Often times I think the controllers have an attitude and it affects the communication process.
I suspect some of the speed of speech is due to number of planes stacked up in sky. Also it is cultural, new yorkers all seem to be in a hurry and talk fast. Buying a symphony ticket, shopping in a store, asking for directions, you have to be fully focused because the answer is coming back very fast and may have an accent. For a mid westerner it is almost like going to another country.
@@suesmith5746 Flightaware blows my mind showing so MANY planes going both directions from the American continent and Europe. Now luckily, the majority probably DON'T terminated in New York, but with that number of westbound flights, you know a problem is necessary in the New York area. That's why I think nonstops from Europe to the Midwest are helpful.
You say "US". JFK is not the world's busiest airport or even the busiest in its own country. So maybe controllers with even greater workload actually do the job better? I'd be curious. Kelsey should debrief controllers at LAX or Atlanta or Chicago. Could be a "New York thing" Maybe this controller gets his speech and attitude from his place of residence? More a question than a theory. I refused to visit New York. We had a day there, and I holed up in my rented room. I don't get the fascination people have with that city. So I resist any judgment of the USA by New York being an example.
@@patrickeppler6438 CRY HARDER PATTY BOY.... NOT OUT PROBLEM U CANT COMPREHEND!!!!!!!! LITTLE SLOW IN THE SKULL, HUH?????
Kelsey, I'm going to weigh in here. I grew up in Bergen County, NJ, about 45 minutes from JFK. Even I have a hard time understanding these controllers' version of 'English'. Let's place the blame squarely where it lies. These controllers need to stop clipping their words, learn and use the "Mid-Atlantic English" dialect when communicating with pilots that are having trouble understanding them. As a US taxpayer, I believe that this should be the standard in the interest of safety, and these highly compensated controllers need to be held to that standard. It isn't difficult to take a step back, and take an extra 1-2 seconds to slow down, think about what that pilot needs, and deliver it. Especially when they're paid.. no, OVERpaid to do exactly that.
I couldn't agree more. I'm an English private pilot. I fly in the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands etc, but never in the USA. Listening to the American controllers, they are worst I have heard and I wonder if they have the same brief as those in the UK. In the UK, the controllers' duty is "to ensure the safe and efficient conduct of flight". How can speaking at five times normal speed (as the American controllers seem to want to do) be designed to achieve a safe result? Many pilots in America get confused and this can lead to very dangerous situations. Why has the FAA not dealt with this obvious safety issue??
I was looking to see if anyone said this! 👍🏾Whilst I understood the instruction delivered, I do find US ATC speak incredibly quickly to the point where sometimes I don't catch everything. I also understand why they speak quickly and that if you frequently fly over there, over time you'd get used to it. However, I think as well as all he did to try and get them to understand he could have spoken s l o w e r, once realising there was a lack of understanding.
I also don't understand why their understanding of English, the pilots, was so poor. Isn't aviation speech universally English (generally speaking) That lack of understanding could be very costly on the ground and in the air 😕
That's my take on this too. The controller is a bully. Cheers 🇨🇦
I am no aviator, but I couldn't pick up more than 40% of what the controller was saying.Speaking far too fast and his words were not clear.
Right on!
I think sheer disbelief could have caused these pilots to turn onto Bravo instead of 4L. Like, they were thinking, "He _can't_ be telling us to stop on a runway, no-one would do that!" In my case, that wouldn't even be a conscious thought; it's taken many years for me to learn to recognize that I even have such thoughts.
I'm "just" a truck driver. On and of for last 30 years between other jobs like crane operator or heavy forklifts. Ive passed those 30 years without any major insedents cause i listen and learn from other people that has been in bad spots. Listen and learning from other people is good education. I belive Kelsey here is learning from everything he puts out here. And that is going to make him one of the safest pilots on the ground and in the air. I'm 50 now and i love planes. These Videos realy makes me want to take the final leap and go for a PPL. Keep up the good work, you inspire a lot of people. Sorry for my bad English.. not my native language.
At one of the Air Force bases I was assigned to, had parking for 80 large aircraft. We always used a follow me truck to guide the pilots to their spot. At overseas bases, where our pilots are not familiar with, a follow me truck was highly recommended.
I remember a Follow Me truck at my old base as well (and it was only used occasionally, and mostly when a plane was going to park somewhere like Hazardous Cargo), but we had only a small fraction of the amount of traffic JFK has. We maybe had 15 or 20 flights a day. A military base that doesn't share with a civilian side will never come close to being as busy as JFK.
Not sure why this is amusing, but imagine a fleet of tow trucks moving those giant machines around. And that'd be ANOTHER independent crew. And somebody in the control tower would be on yet another frequency. I still say a supercomputer could manage just about all of this. A tow truck with a tablet computer could get a list of planes and their destinations, like today's cab drivers get riders and their locations. The PLANES have computers. And managing the airport is an even bigger job. My IT career makes me biased.
I read way too many Follow Me Truck jokes last time I read Chicken Wings comic archives. "I know it took me ages to get here. It took ages for the Follow Me truck to come past here!"
@@JimMork Supercomputer? You haven't seen my OpenTTD games I used to run on a mid-00s Sempron. Or I used to play small maps -- but still much more complex than a large airport -- on a 416MHz StrongARM with 64MB RAM. OpenTTD's pathfinding is something else! Granted, it could get gridlocked if I wasn't careful designing the transport network. I guess predicting and avoiding gridlock could take a lot more power.
I don''t speak Portuguese but I have some Spanish and I can see in some instances that the Brazilian pilots were using English vocabulary and Portuguese grammar. That has the potential to flip questions into declarative sentences.
Im actually Brazilian and I have spoken English most of my life, I learnt it as a little kid. The past 7 years I have worked in a 5 star hotel attending mostly to English speaking customers. There is something about this radio transmission that even READING what Im supposed to be hearing, I dont get it. I dont think the controller is speaking any faster than Im used to hearing the language however there is something here that is a bit harder than usual for me to understand. I gonna show this to my coworkers and my brothers to see if they agree with me. Thanks for the awesome content as usual!
I'm English born and bred,even I can't understand half of it
JFK controllers really hit different lmao. He def could have gone a little slower, but Kelsey is right, he is already going very slow compared to normal 😅
@@arjunyg4655 Any chance it is workload? I rant about the number of planes flying every day. The controllers are like first line in ER. Whatever crap comes their way, they can't duck. I anticipate burnout. I have seen career change in similar situations.
Please do, I’m Belgian and I couldn’t understand it, rather. Former RC pilot. (I know, many REAL pilots are going to laugh that away.)
That something is called, “aviation phraseology.” I can talk “hotel speak” all day long and my friends don’t understand it. For some reason, people expect professionals not to use industry terminology. 🤷♂️
If the ramp indeed cleared them "VIA HOTEL INTO RAMP" (17:30) then we can understand why they wanted to go via hotel and not 4L. They were getting conflicting instructions from the ground controller and ramp.
... also quite likely the ramp controller was easier to understand.
@BillSmith-rx9rmthat pilot probably had both frequencies up and heard their ramp clearance.
I've recently switched to a job with a lot more travelling, and your videos have really made me appreciate the whole airport side of things a lot more. Such as why delays happen and why it sometimes seems you spend ages rolling around the airport before take off or after landing.
I am English. Not a pilot. No hearing impediment or other problem understanding my language. BUT, I can not understand half of the rapid-fire poor pronunciation of some of the traffic controllers on your vlogs. Its no surprise to me that a foreign native would be confused.
English is my native language. When I first started my private pilot training I could hardly understand the controllers at my airport. Fortunately, after flying around five times you start to know what controllers will say before they say it, also I have noticed that controllers generally format the way they say certain things the same way every time so it's a lot easier to understand.
Guarantee you, that controller knew exactly what was happening at every moment. He could have slowed down and he could have rephrased the instructions but he is simply fed up and tired of having to repeat himself and give special handling to incompetent pilots. He is sending a clear message that this crew needs to improve their English language skills. He knows what they are saying and doing, exactly. He is just allowing this problem to grow and be obvious. He is tired of the same problems that never seem to get fixed. And I see his point. The language issue is a big problem and a major safety issue.
@@eltomas3634 if your assumptions are correct, the controller needs retraining. He should be able to perform in a stress-resistant professional manner, and put safety first at all times. When he comes across incompetent aircrew there is a separate system in place for addressing that. It helps nobody if he gets overtly annoyed and starts making critical comments in the middle of a poor situation. In the end, the passengers and other airport staff must be protected from excess risk.
@terryross1754 well, it's probably less paperwork and it probably did cause the crew to at least acknowledge their incompetence with simple English taxi instructions.
And some might say it was less professional, but I would say it was effective. Others would say it might be discriminatory or in this day and age, even raaaycist if he wrote a report about unsafe english skills.. And the controller probably wasn't out to ruin someone's career, he just wanted them to do what they are supposed to do, which is understand, read, and speak English. Paperwork is not always the best medicine.
@@bunkbed16 But they don't in the US - lots of short-cuts and non-standard terminology. I would say that "Are you cleared in" is not standard terminology, and it is also unhelpful. "Confirm" would be standard terminology, but why not: "TAM8180 heavy has ramp control cleared you to enter the ramp"? I bet they would have understood that.
Hi...I am a pilot, a retired air traffic controller, and now work at ramp control. I have worked at many large congested airports in the tower, approach controls, and now my first ramp tower. Just an FYI...ramp control never sits next to the ground controller. Not even in the same building. Keep up the good work tho sir I enjoy your channel!
I am a native American English speaker and have a co-worker from Cuba who is helping me learn Spanish that is related to my job. I work in the public sector and not required to know any other languages but 1) Spanish is common where I live, and I want to provide better service to the people in the community I serve. 2) Knowing some key Spanish and being able to communicate basic ideas will make my job easier. 3) It's fun. I have a limited vocabulary but I do my damndest to not sound like a gringo and I'm getting good at rolling the "R". My co-worker is teaching me how to swear in his language and I am teaching him a lot of American slang he isn't familiar with.
Good catch on the brazilian accent. As a brazilian, they´re totally brazilian. But thats no excuse to not understand whats being said on the radios - it´s pretty clear.
English is my first language, my hearing is fine, but I had about as much trouble understanding the tower as I did the pilots. If I were the pilots I think I would have died of anxiety.
Are you a pilot? As a pilot I didn’t find it hard. I’m also expecting what they’re going to say and it’s all documented in the phraseology book
It's mind blowing that there isn't a computer program that queues the planes and lets the air traffic control know what stage in the system a plane is. Everyone keeps saying how safety conscious aerospace is but the more i learn about it, the more i feel like no one thinks to question things that don't work well.
Sounds like a great computer game! The winner has the least crashes.
Weird KJFK doesn't have a hold area outside every ramp to put planes on so they can wait for ramp clearance.
@@musicalaviator With other modes of transportation, such things exist. In the train world they have side tracks when trains going in opposite directions can't both use the main track.
Agree. Everything in flight is push this button, twist this knob. But on the ground with all the danger, a crew of people with those name things are managing and radioing to make everything happen. What age are we in anyway? What can you do with your phone? It mi ght be smarter than air traffic control.
It wouldn’t work with delays etc a lot of things in aviation are human input you know
I was once deadheading on an Air France flight to Heathrow. At TOPD the English controllers gave a complicated bunch of descent,speed and holding instructions which bamboozled the French pilots. After some tense exchanges the controller threatened to send them back to French airspace if they couldn't get it right. I knew exactly what the controller wanted so asked the captain if he wanted me to do the radio, which he was grateful for. English ATC saw the funny side as a native speaker came on the radio and off to Heathrow we went. As for JFK, for those of us who don't operate there regularly its often not easy, even for us native speakers.
Before or after Brexit. That Heathrow is the opposite of De Gaulle. Pilots have to manage power in descent to keep the noise down over urban London. In places like CDG, they are remote from urban Paris. Maybe less traffic, too, I don't know, but London seems like another place where flights could terminate outside London and passengers reach the city by rail, more or less like I said about flying to Hartford and riding Acela anywhere south. They should have a regional travel authority to manage regional landings and takeoffs.
I’m curious how a random passenger would know what’s happening in the cockpit
@@lani6647 The single pilot rings a phone in the cabin, and the attendants words are overheard? Me, I'd prefer to not know.
@@lani6647 I'm an airline pilot and was positioning to crew a flight out of Heathrow.
@@JimMork Britain have a coordinated travel authority? This country is starting to love dysfunction as much as the USA.
I can't really say because the captions make it easier to understand, but as a brasilian, I think that controller was speaking very clearly.
My wife is the best ever. For my birthday this year, she has gotten me a flying package where i get to fly a plane. Cant wait!!!
Holy crap....that's awesome......😊
Kelsey's way of describing how things go wonky is so cool.
I landed into O’Hare this morning which is much the same as JFK, Ground and Ramp are two separate entities and one has to coordinate between two frequencies (Ground & Ramp) to access the Ramp. Heavy traffic congested frequencies added with fast and heavy American accents and attitudes to boot always make for a tense experience and reduced safety margins. Why on earth can’t Ground and Ramp work together as one team as in most international airports is beyond me.
A grin for me. Imagine the Superfans doing air traffic control. Daaaaa Bearssss. Daaaa Bullsss.
I still see this as nutty. Maybe subcontracting at a construction site makes economic sense, but dealing with multiple authorities at a busy airport defies logic.
I literally can't understand a single word they are saying over the radio. How do you pilot understand anything without subtitles?
With experience one learns what the topic of conversation should be at any point and with that context it becomes much easier. Definitely a learned skill. It’s quite common for private pilots who learned in relatively desolate areas to be overwhelmed by the radio when they start flying in high-traffic zones.
Also, when someone isn't understanding what you're saying after two tries, saying it again using the exact same words is unlikely to help.
1983, flying an ATA 707 in from Europe I could not understand the controller as his "New York" accent was so thick. I kept asking him to repeat and he said "You've got to understand if you want to play with the big boys'! I said "If you would speak English I could"! "I want a phone number"!
5:26 “you’re not even listening sir” goes on to say turnleftonGturnleftonrunway4LholdshortF as fast as he can🤦♂️
Even people whose native language is English have difficulty understanding the controllers and pilots. I knew I could never be a pilot when I, by the recommendation from my flight instructor, started listening to the communications between pilots and the tower from outside the airfield.
I have to disagree a little bit. First the controller is not easy to understand because he speaks with no separation. 4 left sounds like forklift. I listened to this several times on both this and another platform and I never did understand every word the controller said, and I’ve spoken English for 68 years. There’s no separation of words until he gets upset. Second his compartmentalized culture and work ethic both of where he lives and the airport makes the situation dangerous. He can’t think outside of the box. He just wants what he wants.
The ATC appears to have a ‘forklift palette’.
I speak English (🇦🇺)as a first language and you’re 100% right, the controller is literally speaking too fast and his words are blending into each other. I struggle to comprehend him.
@@tonimccann I closed my eyes and just listened and he clearly says 4 left.
I think I have heard the same controller in other videos getting irritated with other pilots because they don’t quite understand what he is saying, and does not make the effort to speak slower and more clear. I also think that a controller should be there to try and be more helpful and not only bark orders. I liked when the pilot of the Brickyard 5627 helped on the situation
Exactly. Thank you for saying this about the controller. Been speaking English my whole life and this guy isn’t easy to understand.
Well I'm English and the controller talks so quickly that I'm not surprised he wasn't understood.
Kelsey, I must say that you yourself have actually expressed what may have been an underlying factor to the confusion the LANTAM pilots suffered - that is - the reluctance to be taxying onto a runway and to hold. They may well have been thinking to themselves - that cant be right? In all my years of flying into the USA as a pilot for a foreign carrier I have never been instructed to enter and hold on a runway upon arrival, but have been cleared to enter a runway to utilise a short segment of the runway to get to an area where we coukd hold because our gate was not available. This happened only a few weeks ago going into Chicago, but the controller was very precise in using standard phraseology, particularly a specific clearance to enter the runway which allayed any doubt as to what was required. The controller also added a plain language description of what he had in mind for us so that we had a shared mental model. I think he was also considerate of the 16 hours we had spent in the air knowing how fatigued we were likely to be.
I speak English and didn’t understand what the hell was going on 😂
Yeah 74 Gear is wrong here, controller was talking gibberish because he was speaking too fast. Enunciate your words dumb traffic controller 😂
I can’t tell you enough how much I love your channel.
Kelsey you are so awesome at what you do 🎉.
I’ve been learning so much since I started watching your videos.
Blessings and always safe travels to you and your crew.
Tons of love and respect, Carlos ✝️🙏❤️😊🇺🇸
There's another component to this. I am a native English speaker, and *I* can't understand the instructions. For me, they are speaking entirely too fast. It was only after you clarified what they were saying that it made sense. Runway came out Run-a, for instance. That's important. As someone with hearing loss, I am always solving puzzles based on vowels, consonants, whatever my ears hear. For a non-native speaker, I can't imagine it's much different.
Not only do they need to learn the words they are going to use, they need to learn how to understand them when spoken quickly. Hopefully, they listen to controllers and pilots speaking back and forth at different airports. Or maybe that's just my idealism talking, and not reality. I'd think it would be tremendously helpful, though.
Thank you for what you do, Kelsey. You educate some of us who are not pilots, will never be pilots, who are simply curious about everything. Thank you. :)
The only component here is that you suffer from hearing loss. Everything else you said was emotionally driven anecdote.
If you suffer from hearing loss you probably shouldn't be judging the intelligibility of audio.
@@electrolytics Nope. My hearing is perfect and the controller is speaking way too fast and is going to get someone killed.
They want to be fast and speak fast but all the repeating and back and forth discussion makes the whole interaction way less effective.
Fast Effective
@@jaya8729 He has to control multiple aircraft that are in motion. Speaking quickly is not an option -- it's mandatory. The pilot was the problem.
@@colormedubious4747 Then they should hire more controllers. No one should be expected to understand that auctioneer-like gibberish, even more so when various accents/nationalities could be involved, and especially when so many people’s lives depend on it.
A question to those who know:
- Comparing 1970s in aviation to our days, airplane technology, airport systems, expertise from incident analysis, have all improved enormously. Why has radio communication in aviation (sound quality, margin for misunderstanding, differences in terminology/jargon between nations) seemed to lag behind, hardly improve at all?
When it is obvious that the pilot is not strong with the English language it is incumbent on the controller to slow down and speak more clearly.
As a Brazilian airline pilot I’d never think to taxi on a runway unless I am specifically cleared to enter it for taxing purposes. Empathy is much needed in a situation like that, specially if you’re an ATC dealing with foreign pilots carrying around 300 passengers at your airport seeing that they’re having issues understanding you. Stick to the standard icao doc 9432 phraseology, speak slower, speak clearer! If we all stick to the ICAO standards we ought to understand each other quite clearer!
Big hugs from Brazil! You’re all most welcome here
Standardised radio operation exists for a reason. So people hear what they expect to hear when they expect to hear it.
If you start adding random filler words and modify them, everything goes to hell. Like saying fox instead of foxtrot, or even worse using different words all together.
I agree. As a Canadian even I have issues at times in places like LGA/JFK/BOS etc. The American controllers don't follow standard ICAO phraseology, in the air as well. Americans always have to do things different and it's pretty annoying.
And their English has accents too
@tauandemello5684 I totally agree!
I think that's where the Controller could have improved the situation, for sure. He's issuing a non-standard directive, and he could clarify that it's non-standard.
"Left turn on Golf, *_cleared to taxi onto runway 4L_* , left turn taxi on 4L, hold short Foxtrot, expect left turn off 4L at Foxtrot when you confirm you are cleared into the ramp."
I agree that navigating an airport is far more difficult than navigating in air. I always have my EFB with geo-referenced airport plates on when taxiing around any airport. For compraison, there are some routes where I never look at the EFB in flight because its such a simple and obvious routing.
I feel fortunate to have learned to fly at a field with a very cranky controller. (There are UA-cam videos of him). I learned to confirm, question, assert myself, and reject clearances because of him.
I'm an American and have lived in the US my entire life. I am also an instrument-rated private pilot who owns my own Cessna 182. I have never had problems understanding ATC at Airports, but I have had issues understanding ATC in the "Centers" and the "Tracon" facilities all over the southeast. I remember a controller working at "Indy Center" who I could not understand his words. I was not the only one either. He was working low altitude and there was not much activity on the freq, still, he had to speak like there was. Another pilot and this controller were about to lock horns when finally a female voice came on the freq. I could hear her and went on to my destination Airport.
Since when is Indiana in the South 😂?
@@TheAsheybabe89 Well I challenge you to look up the Indianapolis air route traffic control center and look at their coverage map. Because I was in Kentucky that day headed to Lunken Airport in Ohio. Last I heard people refer to Kentucky as a southeastern state!
This is an amazing video, you have explained everything so well which is one of the reasons why I enjoy your videos so much. I could not be a pilot simply for the reason that I can't understand the Controllers because they talk way to fast for me. You are so knowledgeable about all aspects of aviation. I have learned so much from you in the short time that I've been watching your videos. I have just recently taken up the hobby of Plane Spotting watching it all take place on UA-cam. And I have found frequencies of the Air Traffic Controllers at different airports to listen to them and try to understand all of what they are saying. Thanks again for sharing your videos, keep them coming.
In my opinion ground controller said "turn left on 4L" too quickly every time. There are three actions in his message and thus rhythm of speech and emphasis on actions would help a lot.
In regards to the first part:
You gotta appreciate Kennedy Steve how he started to speak very slowly and started to emphasize the important things once he noticed that the pilots were not native english speakers and had a hard time understanding the instructions. Ie. "Taxi to G O L F, H O L D S H O R T of X Y Z".
I think these pilots got very confused and concerned to taxi onto a runway. Something normal in JFK but unusual almost anywhere else.
It always surprises me that not more incidents/accidents happen because of the verbal interaction between the pilots and the controllers special when there is static. I guess an accident needs to happen (again like Tenerife) before measures are taken like an automatic speech conversion to an electronic instruction in the cockpit on a display and vice versa.
Could an airplane have chat mode? In my job before retirement, I exploited chat mode to talk to people who needed me to do something.
The fact that the local pilots are helping out while the controller just doesn’t seem to care is insane. How are the local pilots more helpful than the controller lol
Ground Control only cares about whether Ramp cleared them in. Ground control cannot listen to 2 radio frequencies all day every day. That is just not a thing a normal person can handle. Even if someone could handle the job listening to 2 frequencies, there is too much of a risk that both are in use and separating what 2 different people are saying requires a savant. Even if there was some crazy good controller, I wouldn't trust it.
@benjambreeg - not 'local' pilots. Republic Airlines, AKA "Brickyard" is based out of Indianapolis, IN. That is good old fashioned Midwestern "look out for your neighbor" and hospitality coming through.
@@lisanadinebaker5179 why don't those types make it to florida
Keep in mind we here are only hearing the communications with this one pilot while the ATC (ground or whichever) is dealing with alllllllll the others as well. The other local pilots are also only dealing with ATC and can listen in. Between communicating with this one pilot/aircraft, ground probably juggled at least a dozen other aircraft between each instruction.
@@Kishandreth You're right it's not normally a ground controllers jobs to listen to multiple frequencies but... Listening to multiple people/frequencies is a common controller skill and they learn it while in training. I know I was a controller for about a year (I decided not to do the job anymore, too stressful). It's called a "room ear" and it is called that because they can hear and understand multiple conversations going on at once. I could sit in the middle of a busy restaurant and clearly hear and understand 4+ different conversations around me. Radar controllers do this very often when different positions are "combined" such as late at night when it is not as busy and one controller covers multiple areas.
People often forget that US airports are far busier than other countries. Atlanta has about 3 times the traffic as Heathrow as example.
Last I checked, New York has never been home of the most friendly folk, I’m surprised I don’t hear “hey watch it, I’m flyin here” over comms more there 😆
At 10:45 the controller says "I have no idea what you are saying". This perfectly summarises _exactly how the Malaysian pilots feel._
It might sound perfectly clear to a native American what the controller said but I can tell you even once he slowed right down he is _not speaking clearly._ He is gabbling, mumbling, swallowing half of some words. *The whole point of the ICAO alphabet is to make communication clearer* and here we have someone who might as well have used sign language for some of what he says. "Runway" came out as a single-syllable _ru-a_ at one point and "Juliet" was _mumble,_ just two examples that jumped out at me. Without the transcript on screen I would have been even more lost than those pilots, and English is my home language, just not New Yorkese English.
Yeah, eventually the controller slowed down and enunciated a _little_ more clearly but by then those pilots were so flustered they couldn't think straight and he was clearly pissed. No it's *_absolutely not_* all on the pilots, and the controller was *_absolutely not_* doing everything he could to help them out. He was doing everything he could _except_ take a breath, calm the fuck down, and start speaking like he was talking to two tired foreigners who were now in a tizzwazz instead of like an irritated father talking to a stubborn 5-year-old.
I served in the Artillery in 1991. Back then, all fire missions was transmitted using radio. At lot of training went in to radio discipline as it was important to get _right_ shells to land at the _right_ time at the _right_ location, _every_ time. Oh, yes, and quickly too. Life depended on that.
IMHO that JFK controller sucks. He's trying to do things fast; but ends up doing them slower because he have to repeat - end he didn't even get the correct result.
Agree. I'm a native English speaker and I struggled to understand what the ATC was saying.
Former military as well here. This controller sucks
You never had to deconflict fires with a foreigner, obviously. The controller is 100% competent here. Start communicating with someone who doesn’t speak English and doesn’t know the phonetic alphabet and you’ll quickly realize.
@@afcgeo882 I worked in military exercises with most partnership for peace nations. I know what good clear and still efficient radio communication sounds like. This isn't it
@@afcgeo882 you can rest assured pilots going JFK knows the phonetic alphabet. He is sloppy with his pronunciation, probably because we wants to be quick, but ends up with quiet the opposite result.
Controller speaking way too fast. He needs additional training.
No, controllers need to speak fast or they would not get the job done. Better listening skills needed!
@@WWPlaysHoldem I disagree. Cockpit workload plus low radio broadcast fidelity leads to misinterpretations and errors.
@@modquad18 Well, there are at least 2 listening in the cockpit, while controllers must work alone. I did it for decades and the workload is intense and controllers have to spit it out and move on to the next decision and instructions!
As a non pilot, but native English speaker, I had would have had no idea what the initial instructions from the controller were (G,4L, F) without the subtitles. English yes, but...
the ATC should have said things more slowly and clearly at least once! ATC was emphasizing his anger and frustration more than his instructions. Willing to solve the problem and avoid the risk should be the priority, not enforcing some sort of communication power distance.
Bam!👍
The ground controller is a very well-known and extremely well respected guy named Steve. He worked and worked to get this right. The LATAM pilots did not understand what he was saying because they're barely fluent in english.
@@apedreusI am not sure when the incident happened but Kennedy Steve retired in 2017 so if this incident was recent it was not him. I have heard this controller in JFK for several recent aviation videos so I am pretty sure it isn't him either way.
@@apedreusthis voice was NOT Steve
@@apedreusI work with ESL students. Steve handled this poorly
Thank you for your great informative videos
As a 1700hrs + Gold Seal CFI, CFII and MEI w/ ASEL, ASES, AMEL & AMES, I am always learning from your videos. Educational and humorous, keep up the great work!
It's almost passive-aggressive to not respond to the needs of the person you're talking to.
This controller would save a lot of time if he improved his diction and stopped swallowing the ends of his sentences. I'm a native English speaker (Brit) and I have trouble understanding him.
I had flights to jfk, Newark, Miami, Boston. Usually there is a lack of radio discipline in American controllers. They speak, fast, eat words, and with the so called American accent and not aeronautical technical English. Flying to any airport in Great Britain, it’s still English but with perfect timing, clear instructions and proper pace. Even German controllers that have a very different mother language are much more professional in terms of language and talking in the radio then in those airports. Not saying that they don’t know what they do, they do and they are operational, but they lack proper language, proper timing and proper aeronautical English even being the “americano English” their mother language. In Europe there is no need to coordinate with ramp. That is a task for the ground controller. Pilots ar full of work taxiing, doing checklists and usually after long flights. It’s the system it self that is poorly designed, making pilots coordinate airport service. Pilots should pilot. Period. That enough workload.
We're American. We're unique! And lectures about faults get us irate!
@@alanclarke8877 I listened to a Dutch controller dealing with a pilot having an engine issue and needing to return to Schihphol. She dealth with it without sounding hurried. And I'm pretty sure Schihpphol is businer than JFK. But maybe JFK draws from places where more jerks live? I've never lived there. But I have a sense that more people live with an attitude there (perhaps NECESSARY in that vicinity?) Considering New York was once "New Amsterdam" that would be an irony.
@@JimMork Totally agree.😀
@@JimMork Some things to consider: Amsterdam usually has a discrete frequency for emergencies. Sometimes the emergency plane just stays with departure, while other departures get another frequency. Also, JFK only uses one ground frequency, because of the airport layout, while Schiphol has like four. I think another problem is just how busy and tightly spaced the New York airspace is.
@@lyaneris To a point. NYC in general just has poor controlling. I hate flying in and out of there, and a lot of other American airports and enroute ATCs have poor phraseology discipline. This coming from a Canadian airline pilot.
Hey Kelsey, I love your videos. I’m a retired ATC (GSP, CVG, COS, D01 [Denver TRACON]), also a 2000hr pilot. A couple of insights that might be of use: it’s not uncommon in certain situations for the cab coordinator to give a runway, or part of it temporarily to ground control for a period of time if it’s more useful as a taxiway at that moment, which can really expedite the movement of ground traffic. Re the coordination between ground and ramp, at the places I’ve worked ramp is worked from a separate tower that is run by the city or the airlines, not FAA, and there’s usually not much real time communication between the two. The controller needing to know if you’ve been cleared in is probably to determine “can I get rid of this guy, or do I need to find a place to hold him” type thing. Keep up the great work!
I wonder why this still is done like 70 years ago.
The cheapest satnav in a car is more sophisticated.
Show the exact path on a display with the airport map and the controller only has to ask the pilot to follow the route and eventually tell him to stop/ hold or continue...even that can be visualized by a red or green kind of s traffic light on the display.
When I first flew in a 172 decades ago, they were not so concern with hearing losses. I worked on the ramp before that and some of the workers did not bother with their ear protection, they wanted the tough guy image . Those second generation 707s (low by-pass) emit a loud high frequency fan whine at the frontal arc. Many of those guys have near total hearing losses by age 55. In the 172s, they used a speaker located about 2 inches from the pilot's ear, it took me many lessons before I start to get what was coming through the speaker. By year 2000, we have progressed to the point headsets are mandatory, and it is a big improvement. But you still have to kind of expect what the controller will say to you so you can guess the last 10% you did not hear properly. It gets much worse when they are busy.
The most important thing to do: If you have a doubt, ALWAYS confirm.... once, twice until it is clear
74 Gear...making you love aviation even more..#1
Apart from non-English-speaking pilots, some JFK controllers do not know how not. know how to speak in clear standard English without "swallowing their words".