Something about Arcane Trickster to consider, is that every time a new book comes out and adds new spells, Tricksters get a chance to enjoy a power spike. That's something different to the other subclasses
22:40 Assassin: "What are you doing?" Bard: "Whaddya mean?" A: "You're dropping letters all over the place!" B: "Yeah, I'm helping you. Just lure the enemy to this room, then strike! Your abilities work great on paper!"
One thing I saw with arcane trickster do (19th level) was a character using a hat of disguise to copy the look of the party's wizard before combat cast fireball on turn one and then stole the Bad guys counter spell off him when he tried to counter spell him... was an interesting fight after that
Man this is genius! I'll have to keep this in mind for the future. We have a small group so the DM wants us to play a second character. I'm about to start playing a Wizard alongside my Tempest Cleric. We're playing in the Forgotten Realms setting, so I made my Wizard from Rasheman. Based off the lore I saw the Rashemi witches would wear a mask into battle to hide their identity. DM approved me to use a Hat of Disguise as a Mask of Disguise instead, to represent this cultural tradition.
I've always felt like Fast Hands is actually pretty incredible class feature and easily puts it above most rogue subclasses. Like... Cunning Action is always good, but adding picking pockets, disarming traps, opening locks or using items including, but not limited to: Acid , Alchemist's Fire, Ball Bearings, Caltrops, Climber's Kit, Healer's Kit, Holy Water, Hunting Trap, Lantern (Hooded), Oil, Poison (Basic), Potion of Healing, or a Tinderbox - though like the assassin that means you have basically one good feature and a bunch of fluff, haha.
Thief outshines the Arcane Trickster when it comes to healing with the healer feat paired with healing-kits, because "fast hands" allows the Theif to heal as a bonus action.
Through RAW, this is probably one of the most potent uses of that feature. Is unfortunate that so many things (potions, most magic items, etc.) are ineligible to be used with that bonus action :(
22:15 that is the perfect way to describe an assassin, because that's what they do. In an assassination there is a lot of plotting and scheming to take down a target and save your skin. If as an assassin you find yourself in the middle of a battle d&d style it means that you're failing at your job. It's honestly a class that fits a specific scenario.
I had a lot of fun with the Assassin I played due to how my DM runs surprise, in that, a surprise round does confer surprise, but surprise can be gained on targets that are not expecting you. Which did lead to this sort of playstyle, hanging back, picking off targets at the edge of combat from stealth, and basically trying to avoid having myself detected by the enemy for as long as possible... Also the incident with me placing down the artificers homemade landmine, and killing an entire encounter before initiative was rolled... Automatic crit on a device that dealt 20d6 fire damage plus technical proc'ing sneak attack was a very nasty tool that led to the immortal words of "I allowed it once because it was interesting and you used it as a trap to start an encounter. But I'm sorry, even if it would certainly be surprising, I'm not letting you get surprise, and therefore an automatic crit, on the BBEG, just by being a halfing with two kegs of gunpowder strapped on your back, a landmine strapped to your chest, running up to his leg and hugging it to set of the landmine, all while yelling "BANZAI" at the top of your lungs... And no, you can't have a do over, you did that, your character is now dead, but go ahead and roll you 20d6 + 100d4 fire damage. "
Alert feat+ 20 dex means you can't be surprised and have +10 initiative. Also, until they act means thse second turn. They don't get to act during the first, so no matter the roll you can still assasinate.
Being able to impersonate someone perfectly and make yourself their identity allows you to get into a prime location where you can set up in their bedroom using your stealth and just assassinate them in their sleep. I think what would make their impersonate ability better is checks against your deception get like a -5 or something in addition to your advantage deception roll. With that rule the abilities aren't so bad, and it's not exactly game breaking because it's situational to what the assassin does. Or it could be ruled that if you roll below a 10 the result is always 10 on the deception checks thus preventing you from catastrophic failure whereas other players can suffer catastrophic failures.
im currently playing an assassin and while the campaign has been a little rough on my character, every single mission that we planned out ahead of time went well. its just a subclass perfectly designed for using the rogues advantages, and bad at repairing their flaws.also poison is awesome lol
Fast Hands is utterly undersold. I've been playing as a Thief Rogue for many years and in many types of campaigns. I've probably used those 'expanded' bonus actions in almost every battle, chasing scene and so on, which makes it non-situational. Attuning a Staff of Woodlands or virtually any other staff makes him even more powerful. This subclass is Rogue on Steroids and non-nich, I'm biased enough to vote it an S, but, by your own criteria, it should be at least an A, I guess...
You can't use any of the staff's features with the bonus action, though. This is one of the weaknesses of fast hands and how there really aren't many objects that interact well with it. Will say that I love the idea of a rogue with an entire informant network of awakened plants and animals, lol.
Thief is an A imo. Not every party has a cleric or wizard or whatever as there's a lots of ways to cover their roles; so lot's of magic items might be available to a theif without much discussion. This can often result in the thief assisting in that role. A lot of activities last longer than most spells, so non-Arcane Tricksters which do those things well can have an edge.
@@TheHaven923 I think the issue is that you're trying to find synergy between two great abilities that don't need to synergize. The Arcane Trickster is still better, but the use magic device and fast hands abilities are nothing to sneeze at. If the party is lacking in casters and the thief has something like a staff of the Woodlands or some wand for a class that the party doesn't have it opens up options for the Rogue in and out of combat that are often worth using an action for. For example, if you don't have a ranger or druid and you get a staff of the Woodlands it opens up the rogue to utilizing pass without trace at will which is kinda silly when it's tacked on top of their reliable talent, expertise, and maximum dexterity. Even if you have a wizard, warlock and sorcerer you can easily make the argument that if you're in a good AoE situation you'd be a better candidate for something like a staff of fireballs because it'd allow your party to throw multiple fireballs in a single round which is more effective in combat than the spellcaster throwing a single fireball. A big one that was also mentioned in the video is if the healer goes down you'd be a perfect candidate to have a scroll to bring them back. Additionally fast hands may not have a lot of immediately obvious things it can do and it may not synergize with use magic device, but the things you can do with it are incredibly strong when they come up: if someone is chained or tied up use fast hands to pick the lock or undo the knot without losing your action in combat, if someone is unconscious and bleeding out utilize the Healer's kit to stabilize someone or even bring them back up if you have the healer feat, getting chased out of a dungeon drop a bunch of caltrops in the hallways and if anyone chasing you fails a save their speed gets reduced allowing you to more easily escape. I think Thief is an A tier, and can flex into a high S tier in the right game.
@@casualPandy I agree that it is a great subclass and that they probably ranked it lower than it should was just clarifying because it seemed OP might have been alluding to using the staff as a bonus action.
I build gloomstalker with scout, either 5 ranger or 3 if realistically hitting level 20. Makes for a more ranger-y ranger with better 1st-round features and better subsequent round actions, plus some additional survivability. Even better is there are no wasted abilities.
@@TheHaven923 Yeah I was gonna say the same, I'm a big fan of character logical multiclassing. Currently only a pure Gloomstalker myself but a Scout multiclass makes so much more sense than an Assassin to me (and that's before mechanics). Oh well at least it wouldn't be as outlandish as one of the older guys at my table saying he'd like I stop my Ranger progression and start leveling as a Cleric or Monk Ranger hybrid...
The rogue is an amazing non-magical character. The reason to be something other than an Arcane Trickster is to be a character who survives by your natural skills, not magic.
Every Assassin Player I have ever DMed has wanted to change subclasses after a few months of play. I think it is C. It is really only useful as a class dip.
Probably because they looked at assassinate and tought it's a combat class. Assassin is a social class for social settings. Hard to pull it off in dungeons and against monsters.
@@cyruslupercal9493 Although I agree, I would like to say that, rules as written, you still have advantage on attack rolls if you roll Initiative higher than a majority of the combatants. Still, the in-depth breakdown of the subclasses made me realize that, even for role-playing, is not the best option for me at the very least: C from me.
I'll say it; I love thief, and always will. The fact that all of their abilities are always active, and that the thief can be very effective in almost all if not all campaigns is so strong. It lends itself to creative use of bonus action, and the Use Magic Device feature is so much fun to play with (Scrolls, people. So many scrolls). I am playing one now, and I'd never look back. Having said that, I do recognize the power of the Arcane Trickster, and will admit to sometimes specifically not choosing the subclasses that are SO much better than the others, because it feels to me like they try to take the fun out of great other options. So, while personally I'd give the thief a very high A ranking, I can understand why others would look between the two subclasses and look less favorably on the thief. Just don't let something amazing let something great go unnoticed.
10:20 - Per RaW from Tasha's, you can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade anymore. Booming Blade now has a requirement that you use a weapon with a cost of at least 1 copper but the Shadow Blade does not technically have a cost. Edit: The cost must be at least 1 _silver_
This errata totally nerfed eldritch knights and melee sorcerers as well, so I house rule the original descriptions. The combination wasn't really that broken in my opinion.
Yeah, my halfling arcane trickster was getting close to having Shadow Blade and Booming Blade in his spell kit... and then Tasha gifted Rogues with Steady Aim in one hand, and took away the Blade combo with the other :'-(
To be fair, Jeremy Crawford said that he would still let a player use this at his table meaning that, like has already been said, you could house rule to use the original description
Thief beats arcane trickster in a low/no magic campaign. Boom, roasted, just like that arcane trickster is gonna be when the town's people burn him at the stake for being the demon heretic he is.
Right? No one ever seems to comment on this when assessing the Arcane Trickster. I guess since it's limited to Humanoids, making it potentially bad at higher levels
I think it is because rogues are seldom used for support & the person targeted would get two saves to break free before the rogue could strike. One at casting & another on their turn.
"Surprise can be hard to get if you're the only sneaky person in your party" Me: so glad other players tell me to do my sneaky ranger thing while the paladin sings his theme song as he walks literally anywhere and the fighter is shield surfing into enemy encampments...
Actually, RAW (and I'm pretty sure RAI also) if the Paladin is getting to roll initiative then every enemy loses the surprise status for everyone when they get their First turn. The idea of "the enemies are surprised against you even if not to everyone else" is a thing that 5e dropped. If your group still using it, then the Assassin gets a pretty good upgrade yes, but otherwise the Assassin only get Assassinate if it attack while the party is talking peacefully (and that's kinda hard... In a lot of situations the enemies will get alert if a fullplated Paladin comes nearby).
@@albertonishiyama1980 now it's more based on wether I was spotted or not (I'm a Gloomstalker Ranger personally). I'm just glad we don't have an Assassin cuz they'd be crying. I was joining along Kelly's comment on being the only sneaky person in a group and the annoyances it gives. It's not even a matter of wether or not we've rolled Initiative yet or not, my table tells me I should do my thing more (which is basically out sneaking the Rogue nowadays...), but then deadass the Paladin will walk in singing like he's his own wrestling intro and the fighter just runs in yelling. They complained for me not picking Pass Without Trace when I reached level 2 spellslots cuz they wanted Surprise Rounds and I was like "I don't think there exists magic strong enough to hide you clowns"
@@MsKeylas The more they speak the more they sound like eternal non spellcasters so I think most don't even read spells. I'm invisible sometimes cuz of my subclass, but to hide these guys I'd need to somehow cast Silence, Pass Without a Trace and probably have the Fighter on a leash and even then.... so I don't see that happening and have more or less resigned myself. At least if they do something really stupid I can probably go undetected and let em die (not that I'd want to but).
@@Acatia2 if they are too dumb to not think about consequences of their actions. Let them die. Neither you nor your character is hired as their babysitter and diaper changer
As someone who's favourite flavour of ice cream is vanilla, I feel personally attacked. Edit: I would buy vanilla at Baskin and Robbins and at the supermarket. Vanilla for LIFE!
I mean, they are not wrong X), vanilla is my choice over desserts, and it's great to put condiments on it. But wouldn't go to a shop and for vanilla ice-cream
I'm in the same boat. It's delicious! The fact that it goes so well with everything is a testament to how good it is, but it also leads to some shortsighted people viewing it as merely an accessory to their desert rather than an integral part. I hate to see otherwise reasonable people disparaging what really is a cornerstone flavor so dismissively. It's a damn shame.
My first D&D player character was an Arcane Trickster and as a novice I might not have chosen the best spell list but man did Message and Color Spray save me from a character death. Color Spray especially turned the tide on an entire encounter, have loved that spell ever since.
I don’t know about you guys, but there’s something satisfying it is to be able to parkour like nobody’s business without magical intervention. I enjoyed that aspect of playing a thief. Never was able to pair it with Sharpshooter. Can you imagine that?
Fun fact: "Léger de main" in French literally means light of hand, so this is just a fancy way to say mage hand sleight of hand. Gotta love those borrowed words back from the medieval ages. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/legerdemain
well i think their main argument is that it's good, but situational and not as good as the others. the description of the b-tier was "s-tier in the right campaign" which perfectly describes assassin.
@@logancuster8035 yeah? so b-tier. b is right in the middle, where it can be useful in the right campaign (i.e. where there are rules against disguises outside of the assassin, or a more sneaky party that's more likely to get surprise) but isn't always good. when you get to c-tier you are below average, with abilities that actively take away from the base strength of the rogue, which is not true for assassin. if i were making my own tierlist with different metrics, i would personally put assassin in c or d just by way of comparing it to others like scout, swashbuckler, and arcane trickster, but in a vacuum it's a b-tier.
Something the Assassin does get which I always feel missing from other classes in the game is the ability to, y'know, actually assassinate someone. It's kind of awkward if you're playing an Assassin's Creed type of character, plan your attack perfectly, stalk your target to where they're most vulnerable and then just... have a mostly fair fight with them. The Assassin is the only way I'm aware of that you can mechanically work the playstyle of sneaking up on people and killing them without combat ensuing (usually). Which still makes it a B tier, of course, (it's a very special campaign that lets you do that more than once,) but it is something unique that people may want to do.
I understand what you mean if you try taking a direct route, but there are different ways to go about assassinating someone. Some instances may not need anything more than a few ability checks before the target is downed. Just shows that it comes down to 3 things: Your DM, your campaign/ one shot, and the way you want to play it. Anyway, cheers!
To be fair, you could " Assasinate" someone as a Caster just as effectively. Obviously it's not thematically in tune with the assassins creed vibe, but if we're just talking game mechanics, you have a decent chance of sneaking up on someone under invisibility and then just Power Word Kill them.
The Thief's "fast hands" ability is definitely something that is "S Tier in the right campaign". You can do a lot of cool things with it (throw out a bag of ball bearings, coat a weapon with poison, apply a vial of alchemist's fire, administer a healer's kit). The problem is that it's limited by consumable items. Depending on the nature of the campaign, you may or may not be able to routinely stock up on ball bearings and alchemist fire. An arcane trickster is always going to get their spells back after a long rest. And while spells are routinely added to the core rules, new forms of equipment are not.
The melee cantrips kind of broke the Arcane Trickster. Before them, the Thief was still mostly overshadowed, but the Assassin at least had the niche of being the best damage dealer. But the fact that the AT now has booming blade pumping up their damage has really propelled them to being the standard that all other rogues are measured against.
Yeah good luck being sneaky after a Booming Blade. I mean, I guess when combat starts in full there's no more need, but that makes BB situational, and specifically situational for a scenario the Rogue's class type is built against. So cool beans that the Arcane Trickster can arm themselves for when Plan A goes belly-up, but it doesn't add to the core.
@@00blaat00 Booming Blade doesn't do anything in particular to kill stealth. I think you're confusing it with Knock. And frankly describing 'combat' as a situational scenario that Rogues are built against is not a convincing argument.
Yeah, I was thinking that the entire time. Arcane Trickster got immensely more powerful after booming blade, then got another boost with Shadow Blade. It really changed the dynamic
So my party once came across a short sword, and after identifying it, discovered it was a Holy Avenger. Our halfling thief said, "Mine!" and suddenly became nigh unstoppable because they could ignore the class restriction.
@@ryancrump2128 does not work. You take the "cast a spell" action when you use a wand to cast a spell normally. A necklace of fireballs will work, though.
@Jared Luther Kortokrax you're right, necklace is out. Had it mixed up in my head with barbarian rage. Raging barbarian can use the necklace, not the wand.
Yep, Assassin, or Thief start with 3lvl Gloomstalker. Murder hobo Assassin in the underdark. Thief double attack and double attack -10. Also you can take all the magic toys that are specifically for a class your party doesn't have. And sine you started Ranger they are all Wisdom based.
I just did a NASTY Rogue 3, Paladin 5, Assassin, oath of vengeance Basically dealing an average of 170 damage on an ambush (with the surprise attack and the subsequent attack) burning all spell slots on smites and sh!t like a glorious executor (dual wielding, rapier+shorsword, but it could be two rapiers too, but o think that's simply ugly)
@@joaomarcelopinheiromagalha3355 I'll never get people playing classes just to optimize damage output in D&D, but anyway people play to do what's fun for them so it's cool if they like that.
@@zagoskintoto I do it bc the group that I play is hard Af. Encounters are random and etc etc The leveling is fast, the enemies are smart and they're out to get us killed hard. If someone is down, they finish off of they can/have a chance. But it was just a thought experiment, I wouldn't play this character. My actual character is a "Iron Man", warforged sorcerer draconic bloodline
well now, a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one. An Arcane Trickster with the Mask of Many Faces invocation from the new Eldritch Adept feat. well now you're just impossible to find.
An addition for Thief: Per sage advice, magic items are not usable with the use an object action. However, things like alchemist's fire are. Especially combined with tavern brawler for proficiency with improvised weapons, you're able to effectively use your bonus action for an extra attack. Especially when you get into mid range levels and can afford to stock up (pro tip: alchemist's jug plus empty bottles is a very cost effective way to stock up on acid flasks). Note that they won't allow sneak attacks. Since you're going to have tavern brawler, you might also want to build kind of strong and tanky to also get expertise in athletics. Now you're someone that has an incredibly diverse set of actions and bonus actions in a very mechanically dense way, so you might throw acid, drop down a hunting trap, spread ball bearings, splash them with oil as the wizard fire bolts, grapple them and hold them down with a +12 or more athletics bonus, and a host of other options. Your goal should be to be Batman, with a contingency plan for everything. Thief is the dirtiest brawler I've ever seen and it's so much fun and so mechanically crunchy I have to give it an A tier.
Oh crap hadn't thought about using athletics bonus for grappling. Personally love this with a Jojo type build or with small creatures such as kobolds to run in and run away (with mobile) while also tossing bombs at enemies
To me the rank of the Assassin is somewhat odd. I would consider it a D for the reason that it has basically only one signature feat as the 9th and 13th level features can be used by basically all classess as well if they roll well and the level 17 feature is only an improvement of the 3rd level feature. Therefore this subclass imposes a trap as it requires the rogue player to force surprises in order to utilize any class feature of the Assassin at all. Furthermore I would have awarded the Thief with an A. It improves the base class significantly, does not take away and is applicable in mostly all circumstances and not only in the right campaign. Therefore by your definition the Thief subclass would reach A tier or do I see that wrong here?
I think the other subclasses forced the thief down, since except for Mastermind every other subclass of the Xanathar and the Tasha enter easily in the "better than the Thief, dont surpass the AT" range. And when you have like only two classes bellow A you need to spread it a litle more.
I agree with you, the Thief gives more. But Alberto is right, the Thief is a B compared to other classe to come. while the Assassin is a C, a one trick pony with less than optimal options for Camouflage. A bard, a warloc or a sorcerer with desception will do better job than you at being another person. Without days and money spent in it
That fast hands is good in my eyes when you’re trying to set something up; like maybe a trap, a climber’s kit, tossing a flash of acid or alchemist’s flask. It’s a decent and simple thing
My 1st character ever was Assassin. I asked my DM for a chance to switch to other subclass after like 10 sessions, as the subclass features didn't really come up ever in our party and it felt really bland.
I'm working on an Assassin Revised homebrew that gives more of what people actually want out of the Assassin. Tell me what you think: docs.google.com/document/d/1qmF8zJOkgGXiOkj8jH5zeKn7viivV-NTSLwKGbZSHZE/edit?usp=sharing
I had an Assassin player at my table once, so I made sure to talk to them about it. You know, let them know ahead of time that Assassins are a cool idea and they were welcome to play them, but that their abilities might not come up all that often and that if they wanted to have all the Sneak Attacks, Swashbuckler was probably closer to what they were looking for.
@@bradywilson8489 problem is the combat ability only really happens on the first round of combat, and you need to get a good initiative (which fine is easier for a rogue), and the crit bonus you have to surprise the target which most of the time isn't gonna be very often, not to mention monsters really difficult to surprise. Lvl 9 ability ok depends on the DM's campaign and scenarios, but even then it's something someone with good charisma and disguise self can do almost just as better and more often. And i agree that with good enough roleplay and story, there's no reasom another rogue with criminal background, or maybe a ranger, fighter, hell even a bard with the right skills and connections probably could come up with a plan like that. And *most* campaigns won't have many situations where spending a week to impersonate one person is a necessary plan, especially if it's for a short period. But i agree this ability depends considerably on the dm The 3rd skill to me just seems useless/a waste. Maybe i can see like scaring someone with the voice of a monster you know...?? Speaking as if you were someone else to people who can't see you? This is a really niche and open to interpretation skill(and for level 13???). Last skill just whatever has the same restrictions as the 1st one and only comes up at the end of the campaign I think the problem is that only one skill really fits the assassin theme most people want when they choose the "assassin" class in a game. 2nd skill kiiinda counts but very roleplay heavy and it doesn't even guarantee people won't discover your true identity. I think this class could gain things like hide better instantly kill targets with low health, increases to critical hit chance period, hide in the shadow, stalk a target, something. Remove or improve impostor, give impersonation mastery at like lvl 5 and add more assassin-like skills
@@trappyboi8678 Weird logic, any table can do anything they want and the rules are just there to provide options for them. This is like saying it was dumb to include rules for wizards and clerics just because you can find some extremely low-magic campaigns that don't allow spellcasters.
The only difference I would say is that the others have substantial or at least less situational abilities at higher levels. When I first played an assassin from levels 5-14, I was left pretty disappointed by those abilities as they could be accomplished by using a disguise kit, a forgery kit and a decent deception roll in less time and money (Also the 13th level ability can be done better by taking the actor feat if you really want this ability). I guess that might just be me but I just find those abilities disappointing.
I'm in the middle of my first campaign ever as a new character and I'm playing an Arcane Trickster and so far I'm having a ton of fun with it. I look forward to all future rogue videos!
arcane trickster rogue was the first one that i ever made, and i researched into his abilities and the spells he could cast and he honestly might have taken away from the rest of the party in a lot of situations
Same! My first character was an arcane trickster with abysmal stats who was still a freaking beast in combat and stealth, it was fantastic. I still have a special place in my heart for tricksters.
Assassin rogue needs some major buffs to be viable ... combine the level 9 and level 13 features, give them Hide in Plain Sight at level 13: May use stealth even if observed while in dim light or darkness; always have advantage of stealth checks when in dim light or darkness. Also, give them poison resistance and an at-will bonus action: your next successful attack deals extra poison damage equal to your level. PS, this is basically cribbed from the 3.5E Dungeon Master's Guide, pages 180-181.
3.5E assassin was such a good class. But it also had magic like invisibility, darkness, dimension door and so on. But even without that, Death blow was still better feature then assassinate since as long as you stayed out of combat undetected, you could still execute it. In 5e Assassins has no subclass features outside of first round of combat which is a disgrace.
@@Mithguar 'm working on an Assassin Revised homebrew that gives more of what people actually want out of the Assassin. Tell me what you think: docs.google.com/document/d/1qmF8zJOkgGXiOkj8jH5zeKn7viivV-NTSLwKGbZSHZE/edit?usp=sharing
As a dm I wouldn't let the thieves use things like wands with fast hands but I'd certainly let them use scrolls as a bonus action once they're able to use em.
I think the main trap when it comes to rating the rogue is just like the cleric the base toolset from the class is so good. People actually dont evaluate the subclasses properly and instead compare the subclases to other classes and those subclasses and not the rogue subclasses to one another.
Assassin subclass + piercer feat + sharpshooter feat + longbow Assassinate ability makes any hit on the first round of combat an auto crit, piercer feat allows a crit with a piercing weapon to do triple dice roll, and sharpshooter feat adds 10 damage (which depending on DM’s rules also gets tripled) for a negative 5 to accuracy, but assassinate already grants you advantage. Oh yeah. And then sneak attack damage, which again, is tripled. Basically as close to a sniper as you’ll get.
Amazing video, as usual! Finally we are getting closer to the best class of all, the sorcerer!! Some general thoughts now: 1) After the new necessary material component for Booming Blade & Greenflame Blade (a weapon worth at least 1 SP), they cannot be used in combination with Shadow Blade anymore. 2) As concern Surprise, even if the enemy goes before the Assassin in the initiative, it can still be surprised by the Assassin if this one was hidden from them. That is why our Assassin always goes alone in our group and hides on his own!
*I love the Assassin, because it rewards being daring.* *You don't have to sneak behind the enemy. You can walk up to his face, pretending like you're friendly or something, and then stab him in the guts!* I know the DM plays an enormous part here, but doesn't he always?
Rogue vs Archmage: Arcane Trickster: "you don't need to look for your Fireball. Or, MY fireball, I should correct myself". Thief: "You look for your arcane focus? It's here, in my hand!". Assasin: "buddies, you're looking after the archmage? He's here, i assasinated him 5 minutes ago!".
Assassin in practice: "buddies, you're looking after the archmage? He's here, i tried to assassinate him 5 minutes ago, but unfortunately he spotted me and cast dominate person!" Assassinate is *so* unreliable. :-/
Moire that's so true. But i rule it in that way: You're talking kindly to the archmage and all of the sudden you assasinate him= surprise When you attack without warning, it's a surprise
I like how you guys put out this rogue video when I'm having trouble on which subclass to pick for my friends campaign, thank very helpful and impeccable timing
Don't forget that gnome is small enough to fit into a 5ft box that minor illusion can create, meaning that you can just fuking dissapear behind illusonary wall or barrel or crate or whatever, whenever noone is looking at you for like 5 seconds
@@dahelmang and, since you are technically hidden, your magical ambush procs, so you can use it almost everywhere, granting you a helping hand on some nasty spells (like mind whip, or fireball)
@@jakovsaric9492 and if the baddies are smart enough to catch on I can create the illusion of sounds like snakes or magic noises to distract them. Does teleportation in D&D have a sound like Nightcrawler does?
I do think the Thief deserves more of an A than B by your standards. I love me some Arcane Trickster but not needing to openly cast a verbal spell every minute to do a bonus action slight of hand(maybe) is a big win IMO. Feels kinda like guidance spam tactics that the theif just gets to avoid. Also versatile trickster is kinda useless with find familiar existing. Spell Thief is hilariously niche unless you have big boi INT(most high level casters in tier 4 have enormous ability mods). Meanwhile nothing is wasted on the Thief.
That's the thing I think they forgot, AT's have to do verbal and somatic components for a lot of your stuff, which can really mess up your stealth attempts depending on the DM. Like mine ruled you need to speak in a normal speaking voice for them, which is reasonable but also rather crimps one's attempts to make use of the AT's bread and butter without alerting the enemy.
very much appreciating all of these reviews of sublcasses ! i imagine that he assassin sublcass is like making a choice of excelling in the niche market of assassination but at a cost of losing the potential of other rogue subclasses.
The Assassin Rogue pairs very nicely with the Gloom Stalker Ranger. That first turn is explosive, and if you can find some way to attack from darkness, you can be invisible for the attack, making it easier to trigger surprise
@@lilydarkheart Healing potions are not eligible for fast hands. It is a magic item and the DMG specifically calls out magic items to be ineligible for fast hands.
The thing I love about the thief is it lets you play a character that can play heavily off the environment or physically create the environment of a battle field. Between opening extra doors, setting extra traps, disarming extra traps, etc, while still being able to follow with a hide or attack is pretty cool in my opinion. The other huge pull for me is that it is not casting based. When I started the game, I used to want to be wizards and sorcerers and just magic everything, but after awhile the spectacle of having all these spells wore off and I prefer characters that rely on more grounded means of doing super cool things, and the thief lets me do that. I can invent my own traps to use and set myself up in any environment. I'm not limited by a silence spell, line of sight, or spell slots for my better combat abilities.
No. That background gives you a second, fixed identity chosen when you create the character. You don't get to craft a new identity, like a new guard at the castle, a servant girl at at an inn, or a banker's assistant.
Current overall tier list (regarding both The Dungeon Dudes and the users): S TIER - Path of the Totem Warrior (Barbarian) - College of Lore (Bard) - Life Domain (Cleric) - Circle of the Moon (Druid) - Battle Master (Fighter) - Echo Knight (Fighter) - Gloom Stalker Conclave (Ranger) A+ TIER - Path of the Zealot (Barbarian) - Forge Domain (Cleric) - Tempest Domain (Cleric) - Oath of Vengeance (Paladin) - Arcane Trickster (Rogue) A TIER - Path of the Ancestral Guardian (Barbarian) - College of Eloquence (Bard) - Grave Domain (Cleric) - Light Domain (Cleric) - Circle of the Shepherd (Druid) - Eldritch Knight (Fighter) - Way of the Open Hand (Monk) - Way of Shadow (Monk) - Oath of the Ancients (Paladin) - Oath of Conquest (Paladin) - Oathbreaker (Paladin) - Beast Master Conclave (TCE) (Ranger) - Horizon Walker Conclave (Ranger) B+ TIER - Cavalier (Fighter) - Way of the Kensei (Monk) - Oath of Devotion (Paladin) - Oath of Redemption (Paladin) - Assassin (Rogue) B TIER - Path of the Storm Herald (Barbarian) - College of Glamour (Bard) - College of Valor (Bard) - Nature Domain (Cleric) - Order Domain (Cleric) - Trickery Domain (Cleric) - War Domain (Cleric) - Circle of the Land (Druid) - Circle of Dreams (Druid) - Champion (Fighter) - Samurai (Fighter) - Way of the Long Death (Monk) - Oath of Glory (Paladin) - Hunter Conclave (Ranger) - Thief (Rogue) C+ TIER - College of Swords (Bard) - College of Whispers (Bard) - Arcana Domain (Cleric) - Death Domain (Cleric) - Knowledge Domain (Cleric) - Circle of Spores (Druid) - Arcane Archer (Fighter) - Way of the Drunken Master (Monk) - Oath of the Crown (Paladin) - Monster Slayer Conclave (Ranger) C TIER - Path of the Berserker (Barbarian) - Path of the Battlerager (Barbarian) - Way of the Sun Soul (Monk) D TIER - Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter) - Way of the Four Elements (Monk) - Beast Master Conclave (PHB) (Ranger)
Thief Rogues are my absolute favorite type of Rogues. When my friends ask me why, I tell them: "If Indiana Jones were a D&D character, he would be a Thief Rogue." IMO Thief is the best class to RP a fast-thinking character who solves their problems using only their wits and their immediate surroundings. On top of that, they are just SO fun to play. Fast Hands is so good that sometimes it just straight up feels like Thief gets two actions per turn (one to attack, and one to be clever). No longer do you have to choose between interacting with the map/drinking potions/throwing down ball bearings and good old fashioned stabbing. You can have it all! Plus, those movement benefits may seem small on paper, but they really let you zip around the map like no other class. And the climbing feature effectively unlocks the third dimension, FOR FREE, in a way other classes need to burn spell slots and concentration for. I would give Thief an A ranking. I agree Arcane Trickster is definitely stronger, but unlike Assassin, Thief's abilities are good ALL the time.
I'm a new player for D&D(Only a one-shot played as a barbarian) and I decide to invest my time into a changeling arcane trickster! Purely because invisible mage hand cantrip! After I watch video about arcane trickster from this channel, my view of this subclass is broaden! It's like I have 100 ideas for my arcane trickster in my mind and I got a tons of ideas from watching your video! A HUGE THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU. :))
I am just going to throw a thing to you. If you can get the feat Eldritch Adept you can take any Eldritch Invocation as long as it has no requirement. This means you can for example take: - Armor of Shadows: Mage Armor at will and gain a AC 13+DEX (Maximum of 18) which is +1AC more then Studded Leather can give you. - Beast Speech: Speak with animals at will. - Beguiling Influence: Proficiency in Deception and Persuasion - Devil's Sight: See perfectly in any darkness - Eldritch Sight: Cast Detect Magic at will - Eyes of the Rune Keeper: Read all writing - Mask of Many Faces: Cast Disguise Self at will - Misty Visions: Cast Silent Image at will I may have missed/ignored a few, but you should be able to make a very interesting Rogue with these.
Long story short gentlemen. I just got back into DND. Last played 3.5. Your content helped me so much getting back into the swing as well as feeling as if I have advantage. Thanks ! Keep up the excellent work!
@@Silverythoughts Hrm, I looked it up and it's semi-unclear: www.sageadvice.eu/2020/11/18/does-the-monetary-value-of-the-component-now-negate-being-able-to-use-your-pact-of-the-blade-weapon-or-shadow-blade-in-conjunction-with-booming-blade/ At first, Crawford says an Eldritch Pact weapon has value but *in contrast*, Shadow Blade just weaves together gloom. Then the next day, he says as a DM he'd totally let it work. For the record, I read that as RAW, the combo isn't allowed but he would house rule it at his table that it is allowed. That is backed up by this follow up tweet: twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1327132714013782017?lang=en
Favorite Thief moment is using a Staff of Power - we didn't have an arcane caster in the party - and rushing into a ship's cannon room. Using Fast Hands to open the door to the room, Fireball to blow up the room and subsequently the ship, and pulling a clutch 30 on the dex save to survive the blast afterwards.
Love the assassin rogue. May not be amazing, or anything. However, the idea grabbing Alert or some other boost to initiative and opening combat with kill in almost every encounter is awesome. Plus, the disguise stuff is nice, just requires a very creative player and a cooperative DM. Also, like Monty said, 3-5 levels of Assassin, then taking levels in ranger, fighter, etc, is very viable. Keep up the great work guys, can't wait for part 2!
I know you guys don't cover video games, but I do like the implementation of Thief in Baldur's Gate 3. In it, Thieves get an entire second Bonus Action and all classes can drink potions, shove, jump, and disengage as a Bonus Action. It really makes Thieves a tempting option. That said, I'd love to see you guys play BG3 and give us your thoughts.
Just to show a little love for my beloved Thief subclass, one situation where it has come in super handy over the arcane trickster (who we also have in our party) is when the AT runs on empty. We were pulling off a pretty in depth castle heist and my third was loaded up with scrolls (granted this advantage comes at later level), and the DM ruled that the AT can read scrolls from the Wizards spell book only, where as I had all sorts. I eventually was persuaded to "lend" him a few of my scrolls when his spell slots ran out to help him keep up. He basically took the lead getting in, but once we had to leave, my character took the initiative. It was loads of fun so as much as I agree that the AT has the advantage, The Thief is no slouch and I've been able to contribute massively to the party and at times, more so than the AT. Some advice, although you can certainly run a thief with low charisma, Ive found that a high charisma Thief is really useful. He's sort of a gentleman thief. Disguise kit, and the charisma skills combined with the sex skills are your friend. Lastly, ask your DM for a good mage (shady if needed) store contact. Getting gold in dnd isn't too difficult (especially for thieves) and I have a contact that keeps me well stocked with scrolls and the like...for a pretty penny of course. I personally would've put the Thief in the A tier, from my experience, it's way more valuable than the assassin. Anyway, great videos as always guys, keep them coming.
I main an AT, and Shield is an absolutely absurd spell to have on a mele combatant, since it can be used both defensively and offensively to get a pseudo disengage without having to spend your bonus action
Started running my first campaign the start of the year for a Moon Druid, Arcane Trickster, & an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and yeah are they crushing it. It’s been a blast
I almost completely agree with your evaluations, especially with how much better the arcane trickster is than all other rogue subclasses. The one thing I disagree with is taking Invisibility. Between Find Familiar, Minor Illusion, and other skills and spells, I don't ever want to use a spell selection on Invisibility. It's just not necessary and every spell selection is precious. Great job though.
Total noob here i just recently got into DnD during last year's December (Currently rocking a Kensei Monk Tortle inspired by TMNT Donatello) and i LOVE this channel! you're helping me understand so many rules! no seriously before this episode i was like "what the hell is "Surprised" and when does it applies?" as i was browsing the Rogue's class rules and being a total noob i actually thought the Assassin was better than Arcane Trickster, glad you guys just schooled me by expanding my mind to the possibilities, can't wait for part 2!
Assassin is like playing without a subclass 95% of the time in most game groups I played. It's the worst subclass with the GMs I played by far. Mastermind comes just after it for very little. Still, very cool video as always, dudes.
By your definition B is situationally good, as it can also be great. Assassin can oscillate between fine and no subclass at all. This is a B with a veeery large standard deviation.
@@apocalypsemvp I am not denying that when it is great, it's great. The problem is that a lot of DMs generate one surprise round every 10 battles. Congrats, 9 battles without subclass.For example, I am in two game groups now I which we had 3 surprise rounds out of 23 battles (I track combat data) Or I heard complaints from a friend who said that was damm annoying to setup everytime a way for the assassin to go ahead and generate surprise. A bunch of knights with full armor making a lot of noise. Rogue was often running from foes as tried to go alone ahead and actually made the battle way more difficult. Don't get me wrong, it can be great if your DM generates surprise every second round. But let me say he does. You doubled the amount of SA D6 for one turn every second battle (sweet!). A swashbuckler or inquisitive that can more easily generate conditions for sneak attack, can do many off turn sneak attacks (if built for it) doing more damage than a crit. My inquisitve last game session generated conditions for 16 sneak attacks over 10 rounds (my group actually helps with the setup, but it's way more fun friendly for the party than playing alone). When you finally reach 17 levels of assassin you find out that every big baddie can detect you from miles of distance and has good CON saves. Assassin is unfortunately a subclass that pays the price of have being designed in the PHB. If this were done today, it would be much better. In the end, if you have fun, and it is effective in your hands, is what matters most
I've actually used the Arcane Trickster as a Witch-hunter type character. Dispel magic, counter-spell, detect magic, identify, misty step. Was doing enough damage with my weapons but freeing up the spell-casters to focus on damage dealing while I could help protect the other party members. So much fun to play both in combat and exploration.
Something big on Arcane Tricksters and Haste by the way- and just Rogues having ready access to haste in general: Using the additional action granted by Haste, the rogue makes one attack on their turn. They can then use their main action to Ready Action an attack to be triggered immediately after their turn. Since Sneak Attack is a once-per-turn feature, Haste grants rogues the ability to readily score two sneak attacks every round, doubling their damage. If you have a caster in the party capable of casting haste, beg them to cast it on you. It's such a massive bonus to a rogues, and therefore the parties, damage.
Oh that thing about combining shadow blade and booming blade... as of Tasha’s that’s impossible because booming blade now requires an attack with a weapon that costs at least 1 sp and shadow blade doesn’t have a cost.
I was also thinking that, but I think if a group has been using that then they're probably just ignore that material part instead of change the gameplay they've been using up until now. A generous DM might also ignore cause it's cool, and to help rogues keep up with front liners in damage. But yes this change in Tasha's has stopped this interaction as far as RAW goes.
Yes and no. It is really up to your DM from now on. Jeremy said it himself in a twitter post, but also didn't specify that as RAW it is allowed mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1327132714013782017?lang=en
It was an amazing review. I completely agree with the reasons to ranking it. Most of players run into assassin because misinterpretation of surprise. I've played a campaign that master ruled that as written and I couldn't use any of mine subclass features even once. For that campaign it was certainly a D ranking.
I think y'all are WAY too generous giving assassins a "B." It's no higher than a "C," imo. EDITED: Just watched the full video, and I can't believe that the community felt more positively about the assassin than the thief.
Fast Hands is criminally underrated. One hidden powerful use of it is pairing it with the Healer Feat. You can now use Healer Kit Healing as a bonus action, turning you into a speedy battle medic. Or pair it with an Artificer to be faster at using your own items. Use two items in one turn!
@@jcdenton2187 Fast Hands works for Healer's Kits, but it can't be used to use a magic item as a bonus action. It's mostly a situational ability for interacting with environmental obstacles and objectives, which is why it's not a great ability, because it's very dependent on the DM creating scenarios that would make use of it, or the player being very proactive and creative in inventing uses for it.
Agree, I think it's just a reflection of people seeing the word "Assassin" and "Auto crits" and then don't really read anything past that. People could also be rating how good it is as a multi class option. Personally I still think there are so many better 3 lvl multi class options than 'crit on suprise' feat.
thanks! HeroForge was perfect for our Wizard and Bard dungeon dudes- Herosaly Dracmaar and Zian Lotus! Had a great time in Storm Kings Thunder levelling these guys up and topped it off with Heroforge mini's of each character.
To anybody thinking of creating an Arcane Trickster: I strongly recommend acquiring the Metamagic Adept feat for your build, and specifically for Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell. The ability to make one of your spells a bonus action instead of an action, and thus allowing you to attack in the same turn, is brilliant. And the ability to cast Mage Hand without its V/S components is perfect for the flavor of the class.
Fantastic video! Love what you guys do so much. Arcane Tricksters are still fairly OP because of new spells like Tasha's Mind Whip but sadly they can no longer combine Shadow Blade with Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade. Personally, I'm eager to try Fireball with Magical Ambush. I also prefer Thief to Assassin just because i think they make the ultimate tomb raider adventurer type which can also do well in the wilds, especially if you choose a race with a swimming speed like Lizardfolk. Magic is great but it can also be a crutch that can be nullified in a number of ways so it's good to play a character who isn't too dependent on it sometimes.
So, what I'll say is they're right about the Arcane Trickster being the best, but I feel like these guys might be overestimating how good magic is in this game, and forgetting how few spellslots there are for 1/3 casters.
Not only spell slots, but straight foward spell choice. At the point you got Counter Spell you'll be like 6 spell levels under what you need to Counter and rolling the test every single time. Enchantment is also a pretty bad School over all since a lot of the spells make the target hate you for no reason once the effect ends, meaning that Arcane Tricksters will be using only one school in most of the times.
I think this class would still be the best with even less spell slots tbh. It's not so much that they don't have many spells. It's more so that they have a large skill set, and having access to any spells at all completely changes the way they can apply these skills. Disguise self, find familiar, mage hand, minor illusions. These are average spells to a wizard, but in the hands of a rogue you could do so much more, especially when you compare that with Assassin's and Thieves.
Something about Arcane Trickster to consider, is that every time a new book comes out and adds new spells, Tricksters get a chance to enjoy a power spike. That's something different to the other subclasses
A new set of spells is always a "buff" to arcane trickster. They just get more versatile
Basically, as is true in D&D and most d20 systems:
Magic fuckin' stronk.
You mean magic fuckin' OP? :D
Unless it's an Adventurers League character. PHB+1 is a notable check on that ever-increasing power creep.
@@StabbySideways It helps, but stuff like Tasha's is just a big book of all the other scattered stuff.
Assassin rouge is a B tier with high potential to, in a right campagin, land into a strong D
Assassin is S if you actually use poisons
juuup!
I was in that campaign, for the first campaign ever.....
@@DiscardatRandom too bad thats the most monster immune damage type iirc.
Agreed. Played it once (admittedly only for a one shot) and literally never got to use any of its unique abilities.
Assassin is C tier. Unless you get a surprise round, then it A. Unless multiclassed then its S... but only, for 1 single round. Hate that class
22:40
Assassin: "What are you doing?"
Bard: "Whaddya mean?"
A: "You're dropping letters all over the place!"
B: "Yeah, I'm helping you. Just lure the enemy to this room, then strike! Your abilities work great on paper!"
Oooh that type of letters, I imagined the bard throwing Sesame Street letters on the floor.
Well played,bard
I had to read your comment 3 times before I got it :,D
Groan.
Them's some Cutting Words
One thing I saw with arcane trickster do (19th level) was a character using a hat of disguise to copy the look of the party's wizard before combat cast fireball on turn one and then stole the Bad guys counter spell off him when he tried to counter spell him... was an interesting fight after that
That’s absolutely genius
Grab a inspiration
That is extremely cool.
Man this is genius! I'll have to keep this in mind for the future.
We have a small group so the DM wants us to play a second character. I'm about to start playing a Wizard alongside my Tempest Cleric. We're playing in the Forgotten Realms setting, so I made my Wizard from Rasheman. Based off the lore I saw the Rashemi witches would wear a mask into battle to hide their identity. DM approved me to use a Hat of Disguise as a Mask of Disguise instead, to represent this cultural tradition.
@@moosemafia I would love to play two PCs in a campaign
Arcane trickster: I steal your spellcasting abilities
Thief: I steal your jewelry and prized artifacts
Assassin: I steal your life insurance policy
Brilliant
You gotta do this for the next rogue video, too xD
Soul Knife: I steal your mind.
Phantom: I steal your dead grandma and her dead parents too.
Oh my god. Why have I never thought of this for an assassin character before!?
@@thomasls1276 it's one way to use those middle features, lol
"And now for the subclass that everyone first thinks of when it comes to the rogue..."
Me: Ah, the Thief.
"...the Assassin."
Same
Same
I've always felt like Fast Hands is actually pretty incredible class feature and easily puts it above most rogue subclasses. Like... Cunning Action is always good, but adding picking pockets, disarming traps, opening locks or using items including, but not limited to: Acid
, Alchemist's Fire, Ball Bearings, Caltrops, Climber's Kit, Healer's Kit, Holy Water, Hunting Trap, Lantern (Hooded), Oil, Poison (Basic), Potion of Healing, or a Tinderbox - though like the assassin that means you have basically one good feature and a bunch of fluff, haha.
I caught it, cuz alphabetical order... but almost same 🤣
Not even in the PHB are the subclasses listed in alphabetical order, though -- the Thief comes first!
Thief outshines the Arcane Trickster when it comes to healing with the healer feat paired with healing-kits, because "fast hands" allows the Theif to heal as a bonus action.
That’s amazing. Triage nurse anyone?
It does but trading for a feat is a pretty big deal. We don't get many feats. I'd rather burn gold on healing pots or scrolls 🤷🏼♂️
Through RAW, this is probably one of the most potent uses of that feature. Is unfortunate that so many things (potions, most magic items, etc.) are ineligible to be used with that bonus action :(
Holy fuck, you gave me an idea for a character
@@northwestnerd4950 It is a lot of fun to play. I did it for a 1-shot once upon a time.
22:15 that is the perfect way to describe an assassin, because that's what they do. In an assassination there is a lot of plotting and scheming to take down a target and save your skin.
If as an assassin you find yourself in the middle of a battle d&d style it means that you're failing at your job.
It's honestly a class that fits a specific scenario.
I had a lot of fun with the Assassin I played due to how my DM runs surprise, in that, a surprise round does confer surprise, but surprise can be gained on targets that are not expecting you. Which did lead to this sort of playstyle, hanging back, picking off targets at the edge of combat from stealth, and basically trying to avoid having myself detected by the enemy for as long as possible... Also the incident with me placing down the artificers homemade landmine, and killing an entire encounter before initiative was rolled... Automatic crit on a device that dealt 20d6 fire damage plus technical proc'ing sneak attack was a very nasty tool that led to the immortal words of "I allowed it once because it was interesting and you used it as a trap to start an encounter. But I'm sorry, even if it would certainly be surprising, I'm not letting you get surprise, and therefore an automatic crit, on the BBEG, just by being a halfing with two kegs of gunpowder strapped on your back, a landmine strapped to your chest, running up to his leg and hugging it to set of the landmine, all while yelling "BANZAI" at the top of your lungs... And no, you can't have a do over, you did that, your character is now dead, but go ahead and roll you 20d6 + 100d4 fire damage. "
Alert feat+ 20 dex means you can't be surprised and have +10 initiative.
Also, until they act means thse second turn. They don't get to act during the first, so no matter the roll you can still assasinate.
Being able to impersonate someone perfectly and make yourself their identity allows you to get into a prime location where you can set up in their bedroom using your stealth and just assassinate them in their sleep.
I think what would make their impersonate ability better is checks against your deception get like a -5 or something in addition to your advantage deception roll.
With that rule the abilities aren't so bad, and it's not exactly game breaking because it's situational to what the assassin does.
Or it could be ruled that if you roll below a 10 the result is always 10 on the deception checks thus preventing you from catastrophic failure whereas other players can suffer catastrophic failures.
im currently playing an assassin and while the campaign has been a little rough on my character, every single mission that we planned out ahead of time went well. its just a subclass perfectly designed for using the rogues advantages, and bad at repairing their flaws.also poison is awesome lol
Fast Hands is utterly undersold. I've been playing as a Thief Rogue for many years and in many types of campaigns. I've probably used those 'expanded' bonus actions in almost every battle, chasing scene and so on, which makes it non-situational. Attuning a Staff of Woodlands or virtually any other staff makes him even more powerful. This subclass is Rogue on Steroids and non-nich, I'm biased enough to vote it an S, but, by your own criteria, it should be at least an A, I guess...
At least an A for sure
You can't use any of the staff's features with the bonus action, though. This is one of the weaknesses of fast hands and how there really aren't many objects that interact well with it. Will say that I love the idea of a rogue with an entire informant network of awakened plants and animals, lol.
Thief is an A imo. Not every party has a cleric or wizard or whatever as there's a lots of ways to cover their roles; so lot's of magic items might be available to a theif without much discussion. This can often result in the thief assisting in that role. A lot of activities last longer than most spells, so non-Arcane Tricksters which do those things well can have an edge.
@@TheHaven923 I think the issue is that you're trying to find synergy between two great abilities that don't need to synergize. The Arcane Trickster is still better, but the use magic device and fast hands abilities are nothing to sneeze at. If the party is lacking in casters and the thief has something like a staff of the Woodlands or some wand for a class that the party doesn't have it opens up options for the Rogue in and out of combat that are often worth using an action for. For example, if you don't have a ranger or druid and you get a staff of the Woodlands it opens up the rogue to utilizing pass without trace at will which is kinda silly when it's tacked on top of their reliable talent, expertise, and maximum dexterity.
Even if you have a wizard, warlock and sorcerer you can easily make the argument that if you're in a good AoE situation you'd be a better candidate for something like a staff of fireballs because it'd allow your party to throw multiple fireballs in a single round which is more effective in combat than the spellcaster throwing a single fireball. A big one that was also mentioned in the video is if the healer goes down you'd be a perfect candidate to have a scroll to bring them back.
Additionally fast hands may not have a lot of immediately obvious things it can do and it may not synergize with use magic device, but the things you can do with it are incredibly strong when they come up: if someone is chained or tied up use fast hands to pick the lock or undo the knot without losing your action in combat, if someone is unconscious and bleeding out utilize the Healer's kit to stabilize someone or even bring them back up if you have the healer feat, getting chased out of a dungeon drop a bunch of caltrops in the hallways and if anyone chasing you fails a save their speed gets reduced allowing you to more easily escape.
I think Thief is an A tier, and can flex into a high S tier in the right game.
@@casualPandy I agree that it is a great subclass and that they probably ranked it lower than it should was just clarifying because it seemed OP might have been alluding to using the staff as a bonus action.
Assassin with Gloomstalker is a great build as you have high initiative, invisible in dark and an extra attack on the first round.
This is true, but normally they look at just a single stand alone class at a time
Also the alert feat helps alot too
I build gloomstalker with scout, either 5 ranger or 3 if realistically hitting level 20. Makes for a more ranger-y ranger with better 1st-round features and better subsequent round actions, plus some additional survivability. Even better is there are no wasted abilities.
@@TheHaven923 Yeah I was gonna say the same, I'm a big fan of character logical multiclassing. Currently only a pure Gloomstalker myself but a Scout multiclass makes so much more sense than an Assassin to me (and that's before mechanics). Oh well at least it wouldn't be as outlandish as one of the older guys at my table saying he'd like I stop my Ranger progression and start leveling as a Cleric or Monk Ranger hybrid...
Love this build so much.
The rogue is an amazing non-magical character.
The reason to be something other than an Arcane Trickster is to be a character who survives by your natural skills, not magic.
By roleplaying, I agree. But mechanically it is hard to justify since the AT gets soo many options that can be tailored to your preference.
Every Assassin Player I have ever DMed has wanted to change subclasses after a few months of play. I think it is C. It is really only useful as a class dip.
Probably because they looked at assassinate and tought it's a combat class. Assassin is a social class for social settings. Hard to pull it off in dungeons and against monsters.
@@cyruslupercal9493 You have a point there.
@@cyruslupercal9493 Although I agree, I would like to say that, rules as written, you still have advantage on attack rolls if you roll Initiative higher than a majority of the combatants. Still, the in-depth breakdown of the subclasses made me realize that, even for role-playing, is not the best option for me at the very least: C from me.
playing samurai thinking about dipping assassin. is that much more viable?
@@laffingist218 Dip swashbuckler instead. Extra way to use sneak attack, initiative Amp, and free mobile feat
Today's video: why the arcane trickster subclass is absolutely meta for rogues
I'll say it; I love thief, and always will. The fact that all of their abilities are always active, and that the thief can be very effective in almost all if not all campaigns is so strong. It lends itself to creative use of bonus action, and the Use Magic Device feature is so much fun to play with (Scrolls, people. So many scrolls). I am playing one now, and I'd never look back.
Having said that, I do recognize the power of the Arcane Trickster, and will admit to sometimes specifically not choosing the subclasses that are SO much better than the others, because it feels to me like they try to take the fun out of great other options. So, while personally I'd give the thief a very high A ranking, I can understand why others would look between the two subclasses and look less favorably on the thief. Just don't let something amazing let something great go unnoticed.
10:20 - Per RaW from Tasha's, you can't use Booming Blade with Shadow Blade anymore. Booming Blade now has a requirement that you use a weapon with a cost of at least 1 copper but the Shadow Blade does not technically have a cost.
Edit: The cost must be at least 1 _silver_
Yep. So sad.
This errata totally nerfed eldritch knights and melee sorcerers as well, so I house rule the original descriptions. The combination wasn't really that broken in my opinion.
Yeah, my halfling arcane trickster was getting close to having Shadow Blade and Booming Blade in his spell kit... and then Tasha gifted Rogues with Steady Aim in one hand, and took away the Blade combo with the other :'-(
To be fair, Jeremy Crawford said that he would still let a player use this at his table meaning that, like has already been said, you could house rule to use the original description
Me: DM, can I still use this very situational combo per the pre-Tasha rules?
DM: Yeah, sure.
The only scenario I can think of where Thief beats Arcane Trickster is a multi-stage heist that is dragged out over an entire day without a long rest
And maybe using healer's kit to heal allies
or in an anti-magic field (but both of these are quite rare)
Or there are anti-magic traps/fields, then the arcane tricksters tricks are useless
Thief beats arcane trickster in a low/no magic campaign. Boom, roasted, just like that arcane trickster is gonna be when the town's people burn him at the stake for being the demon heretic he is.
@@zz8352 good luck finding the rogue when he turns invisible and tapdances away with his high sneak
also, if you want to crit, hold person is an enchantment spell
Right? No one ever seems to comment on this when assessing the Arcane Trickster. I guess since it's limited to Humanoids, making it potentially bad at higher levels
I think it is because rogues are seldom used for support & the person targeted would get two saves to break free before the rogue could strike. One at casting & another on their turn.
"Surprise can be hard to get if you're the only sneaky person in your party"
Me: so glad other players tell me to do my sneaky ranger thing while the paladin sings his theme song as he walks literally anywhere and the fighter is shield surfing into enemy encampments...
Actually, RAW (and I'm pretty sure RAI also) if the Paladin is getting to roll initiative then every enemy loses the surprise status for everyone when they get their First turn.
The idea of "the enemies are surprised against you even if not to everyone else" is a thing that 5e dropped. If your group still using it, then the Assassin gets a pretty good upgrade yes, but otherwise the Assassin only get Assassinate if it attack while the party is talking peacefully (and that's kinda hard... In a lot of situations the enemies will get alert if a fullplated Paladin comes nearby).
@@albertonishiyama1980 now it's more based on wether I was spotted or not (I'm a Gloomstalker Ranger personally). I'm just glad we don't have an Assassin cuz they'd be crying.
I was joining along Kelly's comment on being the only sneaky person in a group and the annoyances it gives. It's not even a matter of wether or not we've rolled Initiative yet or not, my table tells me I should do my thing more (which is basically out sneaking the Rogue nowadays...), but then deadass the Paladin will walk in singing like he's his own wrestling intro and the fighter just runs in yelling. They complained for me not picking Pass Without Trace when I reached level 2 spellslots cuz they wanted Surprise Rounds and I was like "I don't think there exists magic strong enough to hide you clowns"
@@Acatia2 you are right. Pass without Trace is not an invisibility. They should read the name of the spell lol.
@@MsKeylas The more they speak the more they sound like eternal non spellcasters so I think most don't even read spells. I'm invisible sometimes cuz of my subclass, but to hide these guys I'd need to somehow cast Silence, Pass Without a Trace and probably have the Fighter on a leash and even then.... so I don't see that happening and have more or less resigned myself. At least if they do something really stupid I can probably go undetected and let em die (not that I'd want to but).
@@Acatia2 if they are too dumb to not think about consequences of their actions. Let them die. Neither you nor your character is hired as their babysitter and diaper changer
I always saw Thief as the most "Roguish" Rogue.
As someone who's favourite flavour of ice cream is vanilla, I feel personally attacked.
Edit: I would buy vanilla at Baskin and Robbins and at the supermarket. Vanilla for LIFE!
Same here. Dryer's (a.k.a. Edy's) Double Vanilla is Da'BOMB!
Bwahahahaha
I mean, they are not wrong X), vanilla is my choice over desserts, and it's great to put condiments on it. But wouldn't go to a shop and for vanilla ice-cream
I'm in the same boat. It's delicious! The fact that it goes so well with everything is a testament to how good it is, but it also leads to some shortsighted people viewing it as merely an accessory to their desert rather than an integral part. I hate to see otherwise reasonable people disparaging what really is a cornerstone flavor so dismissively. It's a damn shame.
We Vanilla lovers demand compensation! Respect the Vanilla! Lol
Thief is a strong subclass. Give it the healer feat and it really shines. There's no touching AT though. It's the best rogue subclass by a mile.
*chuckles in Soulknife*
My first D&D player character was an Arcane Trickster and as a novice I might not have chosen the best spell list but man did Message and Color Spray save me from a character death. Color Spray especially turned the tide on an entire encounter, have loved that spell ever since.
I don’t know about you guys, but there’s something satisfying it is to be able to parkour like nobody’s business without magical intervention. I enjoyed that aspect of playing a thief. Never was able to pair it with Sharpshooter. Can you imagine that?
I think the gloom stalker ranger ability to take an extra attack on the first round is better than the assassin's assassinate ability imo
Yeah the Gloomstalker is just a better all round Assassin than the Assassin, and combined they actually make the best assassin
Fun fact: "Léger de main" in French literally means light of hand, so this is just a fancy way to say mage hand sleight of hand. Gotta love those borrowed words back from the medieval ages.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/legerdemain
Je manque le Coup de Grâce
@@laranjashtear a burrito is a cute little donkey
**Best Christopher Lee impression** I've been looking forward to this
Just about to say this. Goodgame
@@alexwolfe ah, I sense great hate in you
Jk gg
We appreciate the videos! It’s gotten my wife and I into D&D and we love learning the way.
I definitely feel like they put Assassin too high for what their arguments were against it.
Its very situational and its skills can kinda be covered by other classes, but it doesn't actively hurt you or your party for playing it.
well i think their main argument is that it's good, but situational and not as good as the others. the description of the b-tier was "s-tier in the right campaign" which perfectly describes assassin.
@@timob1681 no. Their arguments are that the second and third ability give you NOTHING and the first ability is sketchy at best.
Yeah I thought Monty will convince Kelly to put it in C tier.
@@logancuster8035 yeah? so b-tier. b is right in the middle, where it can be useful in the right campaign (i.e. where there are rules against disguises outside of the assassin, or a more sneaky party that's more likely to get surprise) but isn't always good. when you get to c-tier you are below average, with abilities that actively take away from the base strength of the rogue, which is not true for assassin. if i were making my own tierlist with different metrics, i would personally put assassin in c or d just by way of comparing it to others like scout, swashbuckler, and arcane trickster, but in a vacuum it's a b-tier.
Something the Assassin does get which I always feel missing from other classes in the game is the ability to, y'know, actually assassinate someone.
It's kind of awkward if you're playing an Assassin's Creed type of character, plan your attack perfectly, stalk your target to where they're most vulnerable and then just... have a mostly fair fight with them. The Assassin is the only way I'm aware of that you can mechanically work the playstyle of sneaking up on people and killing them without combat ensuing (usually).
Which still makes it a B tier, of course, (it's a very special campaign that lets you do that more than once,) but it is something unique that people may want to do.
I feel like the surprise crit effect should just be built into a standard rogues sneak attack.
I understand what you mean if you try taking a direct route, but there are different ways to go about assassinating someone. Some instances may not need anything more than a few ability checks before the target is downed.
Just shows that it comes down to 3 things: Your DM, your campaign/ one shot, and the way you want to play it.
Anyway, cheers!
Yes. Assassinate feels like a solo mission infiltration type ability not party combat.
I mean unless they are asleep, then every melee hit is a crit so being an assassin doesnt matter in that case
To be fair, you could " Assasinate" someone as a Caster just as effectively. Obviously it's not thematically in tune with the assassins creed vibe, but if we're just talking game mechanics, you have a decent chance of sneaking up on someone under invisibility and then just Power Word Kill them.
The Thief's "fast hands" ability is definitely something that is "S Tier in the right campaign". You can do a lot of cool things with it (throw out a bag of ball bearings, coat a weapon with poison, apply a vial of alchemist's fire, administer a healer's kit). The problem is that it's limited by consumable items. Depending on the nature of the campaign, you may or may not be able to routinely stock up on ball bearings and alchemist fire. An arcane trickster is always going to get their spells back after a long rest. And while spells are routinely added to the core rules, new forms of equipment are not.
The melee cantrips kind of broke the Arcane Trickster. Before them, the Thief was still mostly overshadowed, but the Assassin at least had the niche of being the best damage dealer. But the fact that the AT now has booming blade pumping up their damage has really propelled them to being the standard that all other rogues are measured against.
Booming Blade then minor action disengage so they take even more damage if they pursue. Such a great combo.
Yeah good luck being sneaky after a Booming Blade. I mean, I guess when combat starts in full there's no more need, but that makes BB situational, and specifically situational for a scenario the Rogue's class type is built against. So cool beans that the Arcane Trickster can arm themselves for when Plan A goes belly-up, but it doesn't add to the core.
@@00blaat00 Booming Blade doesn't do anything in particular to kill stealth. I think you're confusing it with Knock. And frankly describing 'combat' as a situational scenario that Rogues are built against is not a convincing argument.
Rogues shouldn't be melee. Constitution is not a priority and their AC is kinda low.
Yeah, I was thinking that the entire time. Arcane Trickster got immensely more powerful after booming blade, then got another boost with Shadow Blade. It really changed the dynamic
So my party once came across a short sword, and after identifying it, discovered it was a Holy Avenger. Our halfling thief said, "Mine!" and suddenly became nigh unstoppable because they could ignore the class restriction.
Wand of fireballs as a bonus action.
@@ryancrump2128 does not work. You take the "cast a spell" action when you use a wand to cast a spell normally. A necklace of fireballs will work, though.
@Jared Luther Kortokrax you're right, necklace is out. Had it mixed up in my head with barbarian rage. Raging barbarian can use the necklace, not the wand.
Assassin is amazin... as a multiclass dip into things like a gloomstalker ranger
Yep, Assassin, or Thief start with 3lvl Gloomstalker. Murder hobo Assassin in the underdark. Thief double attack and double attack -10. Also you can take all the magic toys that are specifically for a class your party doesn't have. And sine you started Ranger they are all Wisdom based.
I just did a NASTY Rogue 3, Paladin 5, Assassin, oath of vengeance
Basically dealing an average of 170 damage on an ambush (with the surprise attack and the subsequent attack) burning all spell slots on smites and sh!t like a glorious executor (dual wielding, rapier+shorsword, but it could be two rapiers too, but o think that's simply ugly)
@@joaomarcelopinheiromagalha3355 I'll never get people playing classes just to optimize damage output in D&D, but anyway people play to do what's fun for them so it's cool if they like that.
@@zagoskintoto I do it bc the group that I play is hard Af. Encounters are random and etc etc
The leveling is fast, the enemies are smart and they're out to get us killed hard. If someone is down, they finish off of they can/have a chance. But it was just a thought experiment, I wouldn't play this character. My actual character is a "Iron Man", warforged sorcerer draconic bloodline
Gloomstalker assassin sounds exactly like how most people play Skyrim hahaha
well now, a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
An Arcane Trickster with the Mask of Many Faces invocation from the new Eldritch Adept feat. well now you're just impossible to find.
@Rubedo Alaberti If your DM allows it. or if the setting allows it.
An addition for Thief: Per sage advice, magic items are not usable with the use an object action. However, things like alchemist's fire are. Especially combined with tavern brawler for proficiency with improvised weapons, you're able to effectively use your bonus action for an extra attack. Especially when you get into mid range levels and can afford to stock up (pro tip: alchemist's jug plus empty bottles is a very cost effective way to stock up on acid flasks). Note that they won't allow sneak attacks. Since you're going to have tavern brawler, you might also want to build kind of strong and tanky to also get expertise in athletics.
Now you're someone that has an incredibly diverse set of actions and bonus actions in a very mechanically dense way, so you might throw acid, drop down a hunting trap, spread ball bearings, splash them with oil as the wizard fire bolts, grapple them and hold them down with a +12 or more athletics bonus, and a host of other options. Your goal should be to be Batman, with a contingency plan for everything.
Thief is the dirtiest brawler I've ever seen and it's so much fun and so mechanically crunchy I have to give it an A tier.
Oh crap hadn't thought about using athletics bonus for grappling. Personally love this with a Jojo type build or with small creatures such as kobolds to run in and run away (with mobile) while also tossing bombs at enemies
To me the rank of the Assassin is somewhat odd. I would consider it a D for the reason that it has basically only one signature feat as the 9th and 13th level features can be used by basically all classess as well if they roll well and the level 17 feature is only an improvement of the 3rd level feature. Therefore this subclass imposes a trap as it requires the rogue player to force surprises in order to utilize any class feature of the Assassin at all.
Furthermore I would have awarded the Thief with an A. It improves the base class significantly, does not take away and is applicable in mostly all circumstances and not only in the right campaign. Therefore by your definition the Thief subclass would reach A tier or do I see that wrong here?
I think the other subclasses forced the thief down, since except for Mastermind every other subclass of the Xanathar and the Tasha enter easily in the "better than the Thief, dont surpass the AT" range.
And when you have like only two classes bellow A you need to spread it a litle more.
I agree with you, the Thief gives more. But Alberto is right, the Thief is a B compared to other classe to come. while the Assassin is a C, a one trick pony with less than optimal options for Camouflage. A bard, a warloc or a sorcerer with desception will do better job than you at being another person. Without days and money spent in it
In theory, they shouldn't compare one subclass with each other. So saying Arcane Trickster is better than Thief shouldn't be here.
I think we have different opinions on the definition of “trap.” In what way is tying to get surprise a bad thing?
@@laranjashtear what theory is that?
That fast hands is good in my eyes when you’re trying to set something up; like maybe a trap, a climber’s kit, tossing a flash of acid or alchemist’s flask. It’s a decent and simple thing
My 1st character ever was Assassin. I asked my DM for a chance to switch to other subclass after like 10 sessions, as the subclass features didn't really come up ever in our party and it felt really bland.
I'm working on an Assassin Revised homebrew that gives more of what people actually want out of the Assassin. Tell me what you think: docs.google.com/document/d/1qmF8zJOkgGXiOkj8jH5zeKn7viivV-NTSLwKGbZSHZE/edit?usp=sharing
I had an Assassin player at my table once, so I made sure to talk to them about it. You know, let them know ahead of time that Assassins are a cool idea and they were welcome to play them, but that their abilities might not come up all that often and that if they wanted to have all the Sneak Attacks, Swashbuckler was probably closer to what they were looking for.
I love the Assassin as a 3 level dip. Everything after that, though, just isn't worth it.
That’s more of an uninspired dm rather than a bland character. A good dm will make it to where you really get to use your abilities
@@bradywilson8489 problem is the combat ability only really happens on the first round of combat, and you need to get a good initiative (which fine is easier for a rogue), and the crit bonus you have to surprise the target which most of the time isn't gonna be very often, not to mention monsters really difficult to surprise. Lvl 9 ability ok depends on the DM's campaign and scenarios, but even then it's something someone with good charisma and disguise self can do almost just as better and more often. And i agree that with good enough roleplay and story, there's no reasom another rogue with criminal background, or maybe a ranger, fighter, hell even a bard with the right skills and connections probably could come up with a plan like that. And *most* campaigns won't have many situations where spending a week to impersonate one person is a necessary plan, especially if it's for a short period. But i agree this ability depends considerably on the dm
The 3rd skill to me just seems useless/a waste. Maybe i can see like scaring someone with the voice of a monster you know...?? Speaking as if you were someone else to people who can't see you? This is a really niche and open to interpretation skill(and for level 13???). Last skill just whatever has the same restrictions as the 1st one and only comes up at the end of the campaign
I think the problem is that only one skill really fits the assassin theme most people want when they choose the "assassin" class in a game. 2nd skill kiiinda counts but very roleplay heavy and it doesn't even guarantee people won't discover your true identity. I think this class could gain things like hide better instantly kill targets with low health, increases to critical hit chance period, hide in the shadow, stalk a target, something. Remove or improve impostor, give impersonation mastery at like lvl 5 and add more assassin-like skills
Assassin rogue is specifically for a 3 level splash for other classes like Gloomstalker Ranger or Vengeance Paladin, imo.
Some tables don't allow multiclassing so creating a class or sub-class made specifically for multi-classing is dumb.
Or shadow sorcerer if you’re lucky
@@trappyboi8678 Weird logic, any table can do anything they want and the rules are just there to provide options for them. This is like saying it was dumb to include rules for wizards and clerics just because you can find some extremely low-magic campaigns that don't allow spellcasters.
@@trappyboi8678 was just about to rant about how wrong your idea is but your profile pic turned me on so you’re good for now
The only difference I would say is that the others have substantial or at least less situational abilities at higher levels. When I first played an assassin from levels 5-14, I was left pretty disappointed by those abilities as they could be accomplished by using a disguise kit, a forgery kit and a decent deception roll in less time and money (Also the 13th level ability can be done better by taking the actor feat if you really want this ability). I guess that might just be me but I just find those abilities disappointing.
I'm in the middle of my first campaign ever as a new character and I'm playing an Arcane Trickster and so far I'm having a ton of fun with it. I look forward to all future rogue videos!
Been looking forward to and dreading this at the same time....
Really looking forward to the rating of Mastermind in the next video
Also guess who got hungry during the making of this video
It's gonna get dunked on
You guys really grew on me, the way you calmly talk and explain stuff is incredibly, thank you for supporting a new "adventurer"
arcane trickster rogue was the first one that i ever made, and i researched into his abilities and the spells he could cast and he honestly might have taken away from the rest of the party in a lot of situations
Same! My first character was an arcane trickster with abysmal stats who was still a freaking beast in combat and stealth, it was fantastic. I still have a special place in my heart for tricksters.
Assassin rogue needs some major buffs to be viable ... combine the level 9 and level 13 features, give them Hide in Plain Sight at level 13:
May use stealth even if observed while in dim light or darkness; always have advantage of stealth checks when in dim light or darkness.
Also, give them poison resistance and an at-will bonus action: your next successful attack deals extra poison damage equal to your level.
PS, this is basically cribbed from the 3.5E Dungeon Master's Guide, pages 180-181.
Maybe also give them Advantage on Initiative to help ensure they can use Assassinate as often as possible
3.5E assassin was such a good class. But it also had magic like invisibility, darkness, dimension door and so on. But even without that, Death blow was still better feature then assassinate since as long as you stayed out of combat undetected, you could still execute it. In 5e Assassins has no subclass features outside of first round of combat which is a disgrace.
@@Mithguar 'm working on an Assassin Revised homebrew that gives more of what people actually want out of the Assassin. Tell me what you think: docs.google.com/document/d/1qmF8zJOkgGXiOkj8jH5zeKn7viivV-NTSLwKGbZSHZE/edit?usp=sharing
Ultimate Kleptomaniac, theif rouge, shadow monk, gloomstalker ranger, changeling with warlock feat
Eldritch adept for Mask of Many faces, Actor just because and skulker to make it the perfect rogue-like character
As a dm I wouldn't let the thieves use things like wands with fast hands but I'd certainly let them use scrolls as a bonus action once they're able to use em.
I think the main trap when it comes to rating the rogue is just like the cleric the base toolset from the class is so good. People actually dont evaluate the subclasses properly and instead compare the subclases to other classes and those subclasses and not the rogue subclasses to one another.
Assassin subclass + piercer feat + sharpshooter feat + longbow
Assassinate ability makes any hit on the first round of combat an auto crit, piercer feat allows a crit with a piercing weapon to do triple dice roll, and sharpshooter feat adds 10 damage (which depending on DM’s rules also gets tripled) for a negative 5 to accuracy, but assassinate already grants you advantage. Oh yeah. And then sneak attack damage, which again, is tripled.
Basically as close to a sniper as you’ll get.
Amazing video, as usual! Finally we are getting closer to the best class of all, the sorcerer!! Some general thoughts now:
1) After the new necessary material component for Booming Blade & Greenflame Blade (a weapon worth at least 1 SP), they cannot be used in combination with Shadow Blade anymore.
2) As concern Surprise, even if the enemy goes before the Assassin in the initiative, it can still be surprised by the Assassin if this one was hidden from them. That is why our Assassin always goes alone in our group and hides on his own!
*I love the Assassin, because it rewards being daring.*
*You don't have to sneak behind the enemy. You can walk up to his face, pretending like you're friendly or something, and then stab him in the guts!*
I know the DM plays an enormous part here, but doesn't he always?
Rogue vs Archmage:
Arcane Trickster: "you don't need to look for your Fireball. Or, MY fireball, I should correct myself".
Thief: "You look for your arcane focus? It's here, in my hand!".
Assasin: "buddies, you're looking after the archmage? He's here, i assasinated him 5 minutes ago!".
Assassin in practice: "buddies, you're looking after the archmage? He's here, i tried to assassinate him 5 minutes ago, but unfortunately he spotted me and cast dominate person!"
Assassinate is *so* unreliable. :-/
Moire that's so true.
But i rule it in that way:
You're talking kindly to the archmage and all of the sudden you assasinate him= surprise
When you attack without warning, it's a surprise
Марат Габдуллин oooooh no...
I love that spell, but i hate it when the bbeg has it
I like how you guys put out this rogue video when I'm having trouble on which subclass to pick for my friends campaign, thank very helpful and impeccable timing
Glad to help!
When you're not in the mood of more and more magic as everything in the current edition, the thief is pretty nice
I’ve been waiting for this. Finally my favorite class has a ranking now. Thanks
Gnome Arcane Trickster here, I get minor illusion for free from level 1.
Don't forget that gnome is small enough to fit into a 5ft box that minor illusion can create, meaning that you can just fuking dissapear behind illusonary wall or barrel or crate or whatever, whenever noone is looking at you for like 5 seconds
@@jakovsaric9492 yes I am sooo looking forward to doing this! And since I disbelieve my own illusions I can see out of it too!
@@dahelmang and, since you are technically hidden, your magical ambush procs, so you can use it almost everywhere, granting you a helping hand on some nasty spells (like mind whip, or fireball)
@@jakovsaric9492 and if the baddies are smart enough to catch on I can create the illusion of sounds like snakes or magic noises to distract them. Does teleportation in D&D have a sound like Nightcrawler does?
@@dahelmang other then thunderstep, no any notable ones, so it is up to your DM...
I know it's a lot of work to put these videos together, but I DEMAND MORE! It's just too good!
I do think the Thief deserves more of an A than B by your standards. I love me some Arcane Trickster but not needing to openly cast a verbal spell every minute to do a bonus action slight of hand(maybe) is a big win IMO. Feels kinda like guidance spam tactics that the theif just gets to avoid. Also versatile trickster is kinda useless with find familiar existing. Spell Thief is hilariously niche unless you have big boi INT(most high level casters in tier 4 have enormous ability mods). Meanwhile nothing is wasted on the Thief.
That's the thing I think they forgot, AT's have to do verbal and somatic components for a lot of your stuff, which can really mess up your stealth attempts depending on the DM. Like mine ruled you need to speak in a normal speaking voice for them, which is reasonable but also rather crimps one's attempts to make use of the AT's bread and butter without alerting the enemy.
very much appreciating all of these reviews of sublcasses ! i imagine that he assassin sublcass is like making a choice of excelling in the niche market of assassination but at a cost of losing the potential of other rogue subclasses.
For arcane tricksters, I love the cantrip Message. I can be scouting 100' away from the party and still talk to them.
The Assassin Rogue pairs very nicely with the Gloom Stalker Ranger. That first turn is explosive, and if you can find some way to attack from darkness, you can be invisible for the attack, making it easier to trigger surprise
Alert feat on a thief guarantees that two turns at the start of combat.
I think you underestimate fast hands, even with the magic item restrictions
Yeah, bonus action to administer healing to a fallen ally can be incredibly important (either from a Healer's Kit or from a healing potion).
@@lilydarkheart Healing potions are not eligible for fast hands. It is a magic item and the DMG specifically calls out magic items to be ineligible for fast hands.
@@lalopses008 Ha well my DM ruled it incorrectly then *shrug*
The thing I love about the thief is it lets you play a character that can play heavily off the environment or physically create the environment of a battle field. Between opening extra doors, setting extra traps, disarming extra traps, etc, while still being able to follow with a hide or attack is pretty cool in my opinion. The other huge pull for me is that it is not casting based. When I started the game, I used to want to be wizards and sorcerers and just magic everything, but after awhile the spectacle of having all these spells wore off and I prefer characters that rely on more grounded means of doing super cool things, and the thief lets me do that. I can invent my own traps to use and set myself up in any environment. I'm not limited by a silence spell, line of sight, or spell slots for my better combat abilities.
Doesn't the Charlatan background literally have a feat that gives you a second identity? That already invalidates the Assassin's 9th level feature.
No. That background gives you a second, fixed identity chosen when you create the character. You don't get to craft a new identity, like a new guard at the castle, a servant girl at at an inn, or a banker's assistant.
Current overall tier list (regarding both The Dungeon Dudes and the users):
S TIER
- Path of the Totem Warrior (Barbarian)
- College of Lore (Bard)
- Life Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Moon (Druid)
- Battle Master (Fighter)
- Echo Knight (Fighter)
- Gloom Stalker Conclave (Ranger)
A+ TIER
- Path of the Zealot (Barbarian)
- Forge Domain (Cleric)
- Tempest Domain (Cleric)
- Oath of Vengeance (Paladin)
- Arcane Trickster (Rogue)
A TIER
- Path of the Ancestral Guardian (Barbarian)
- College of Eloquence (Bard)
- Grave Domain (Cleric)
- Light Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Shepherd (Druid)
- Eldritch Knight (Fighter)
- Way of the Open Hand (Monk)
- Way of Shadow (Monk)
- Oath of the Ancients (Paladin)
- Oath of Conquest (Paladin)
- Oathbreaker (Paladin)
- Beast Master Conclave (TCE) (Ranger)
- Horizon Walker Conclave (Ranger)
B+ TIER
- Cavalier (Fighter)
- Way of the Kensei (Monk)
- Oath of Devotion (Paladin)
- Oath of Redemption (Paladin)
- Assassin (Rogue)
B TIER
- Path of the Storm Herald (Barbarian)
- College of Glamour (Bard)
- College of Valor (Bard)
- Nature Domain (Cleric)
- Order Domain (Cleric)
- Trickery Domain (Cleric)
- War Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Land (Druid)
- Circle of Dreams (Druid)
- Champion (Fighter)
- Samurai (Fighter)
- Way of the Long Death (Monk)
- Oath of Glory (Paladin)
- Hunter Conclave (Ranger)
- Thief (Rogue)
C+ TIER
- College of Swords (Bard)
- College of Whispers (Bard)
- Arcana Domain (Cleric)
- Death Domain (Cleric)
- Knowledge Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of Spores (Druid)
- Arcane Archer (Fighter)
- Way of the Drunken Master (Monk)
- Oath of the Crown (Paladin)
- Monster Slayer Conclave (Ranger)
C TIER
- Path of the Berserker (Barbarian)
- Path of the Battlerager (Barbarian)
- Way of the Sun Soul (Monk)
D TIER
- Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter)
- Way of the Four Elements (Monk)
- Beast Master Conclave (PHB) (Ranger)
Thief Rogues are my absolute favorite type of Rogues.
When my friends ask me why, I tell them: "If Indiana Jones were a D&D character, he would be a Thief Rogue."
IMO Thief is the best class to RP a fast-thinking character who solves their problems using only their wits and their immediate surroundings.
On top of that, they are just SO fun to play. Fast Hands is so good that sometimes it just straight up feels like Thief gets two actions per turn (one to attack, and one to be clever). No longer do you have to choose between interacting with the map/drinking potions/throwing down ball bearings and good old fashioned stabbing. You can have it all! Plus, those movement benefits may seem small on paper, but they really let you zip around the map like no other class. And the climbing feature effectively unlocks the third dimension, FOR FREE, in a way other classes need to burn spell slots and concentration for.
I would give Thief an A ranking. I agree Arcane Trickster is definitely stronger, but unlike Assassin, Thief's abilities are good ALL the time.
I'm a new player for D&D(Only a one-shot played as a barbarian) and I decide to invest my time into a changeling arcane trickster!
Purely because invisible mage hand cantrip!
After I watch video about arcane trickster from this channel, my view of this subclass is broaden! It's like I have 100 ideas for my arcane trickster in my mind and I got a tons of ideas from watching your video!
A HUGE THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU. :))
I am just going to throw a thing to you. If you can get the feat Eldritch Adept you can take any Eldritch Invocation as long as it has no requirement. This means you can for example take:
- Armor of Shadows: Mage Armor at will and gain a AC 13+DEX (Maximum of 18) which is +1AC more then Studded Leather can give you.
- Beast Speech: Speak with animals at will.
- Beguiling Influence: Proficiency in Deception and Persuasion
- Devil's Sight: See perfectly in any darkness
- Eldritch Sight: Cast Detect Magic at will
- Eyes of the Rune Keeper: Read all writing
- Mask of Many Faces: Cast Disguise Self at will
- Misty Visions: Cast Silent Image at will
I may have missed/ignored a few, but you should be able to make a very interesting Rogue with these.
I've been looking forward to this for months!
Long story short gentlemen. I just got back into DND. Last played 3.5. Your content helped me so much getting back into the swing as well as feeling as if I have advantage. Thanks ! Keep up the excellent work!
CORRECTION: As of Tasha's, Booming Blade can no longer be combined with Shadow Blade. Booming Blade requires a physical weapon worth at least 1sp.
Pretty sure sage advice said that it still works 🤔 something about shadow blade creating an object and an object has a value.
@@Silverythoughts Hrm, I looked it up and it's semi-unclear: www.sageadvice.eu/2020/11/18/does-the-monetary-value-of-the-component-now-negate-being-able-to-use-your-pact-of-the-blade-weapon-or-shadow-blade-in-conjunction-with-booming-blade/
At first, Crawford says an Eldritch Pact weapon has value but *in contrast*, Shadow Blade just weaves together gloom. Then the next day, he says as a DM he'd totally let it work. For the record, I read that as RAW, the combo isn't allowed but he would house rule it at his table that it is allowed. That is backed up by this follow up tweet: twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1327132714013782017?lang=en
Favorite Thief moment is using a Staff of Power - we didn't have an arcane caster in the party - and rushing into a ship's cannon room. Using Fast Hands to open the door to the room, Fireball to blow up the room and subsequently the ship, and pulling a clutch 30 on the dex save to survive the blast afterwards.
2 levels druid (circle of the moon), the rest in rogue assassin. Never has assassinating someone as a house cat been so satisfying. :)
Love the assassin rogue. May not be amazing, or anything. However, the idea grabbing Alert or some other boost to initiative and opening combat with kill in almost every encounter is awesome. Plus, the disguise stuff is nice, just requires a very creative player and a cooperative DM. Also, like Monty said, 3-5 levels of Assassin, then taking levels in ranger, fighter, etc, is very viable.
Keep up the great work guys, can't wait for part 2!
I laughed way too much at the whole ice cream analogy. Monty is just Hilarious
I know you guys don't cover video games, but I do like the implementation of Thief in Baldur's Gate 3. In it, Thieves get an entire second Bonus Action and all classes can drink potions, shove, jump, and disengage as a Bonus Action. It really makes Thieves a tempting option.
That said, I'd love to see you guys play BG3 and give us your thoughts.
Personally I'd say:
Arcane trickster: S
Thief = A or B
Assassin: B or C
Such that: Thief is ranked higher than Assassin.
I agree. The thief without a doubt is better than the assassin, but not as good as the arcane trickster.
Just to show a little love for my beloved Thief subclass, one situation where it has come in super handy over the arcane trickster (who we also have in our party) is when the AT runs on empty. We were pulling off a pretty in depth castle heist and my third was loaded up with scrolls (granted this advantage comes at later level), and the DM ruled that the AT can read scrolls from the Wizards spell book only, where as I had all sorts. I eventually was persuaded to "lend" him a few of my scrolls when his spell slots ran out to help him keep up. He basically took the lead getting in, but once we had to leave, my character took the initiative.
It was loads of fun so as much as I agree that the AT has the advantage, The Thief is no slouch and I've been able to contribute massively to the party and at times, more so than the AT.
Some advice, although you can certainly run a thief with low charisma, Ive found that a high charisma Thief is really useful. He's sort of a gentleman thief. Disguise kit, and the charisma skills combined with the sex skills are your friend. Lastly, ask your DM for a good mage (shady if needed) store contact. Getting gold in dnd isn't too difficult (especially for thieves) and I have a contact that keeps me well stocked with scrolls and the like...for a pretty penny of course.
I personally would've put the Thief in the A tier, from my experience, it's way more valuable than the assassin.
Anyway, great videos as always guys, keep them coming.
I main an AT, and Shield is an absolutely absurd spell to have on a mele combatant, since it can be used both defensively and offensively to get a pseudo disengage without having to spend your bonus action
Started running my first campaign the start of the year for a Moon Druid, Arcane Trickster, & an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and yeah are they crushing it. It’s been a blast
I almost completely agree with your evaluations, especially with how much better the arcane trickster is than all other rogue subclasses. The one thing I disagree with is taking Invisibility. Between Find Familiar, Minor Illusion, and other skills and spells, I don't ever want to use a spell selection on Invisibility. It's just not necessary and every spell selection is precious. Great job though.
Total noob here i just recently got into DnD during last year's December (Currently rocking a Kensei Monk Tortle inspired by TMNT Donatello) and i LOVE this channel! you're helping me understand so many rules! no seriously before this episode i was like "what the hell is "Surprised" and when does it applies?" as i was browsing the Rogue's class rules and being a total noob i actually thought the Assassin was better than Arcane Trickster, glad you guys just schooled me by expanding my mind to the possibilities, can't wait for part 2!
Assassin is like playing without a subclass 95% of the time in most game groups I played. It's the worst subclass with the GMs I played by far. Mastermind comes just after it for very little.
Still, very cool video as always, dudes.
By your definition B is situationally good, as it can also be great. Assassin can oscillate between fine and no subclass at all. This is a B with a veeery large standard deviation.
Autocrit during a surprise round is great! Especially if you actually use poisons as well.
Assassin has the least out of combat potential but in combat it is absolutely amazing.
@@apocalypsemvp I am not denying that when it is great, it's great. The problem is that a lot of DMs generate one surprise round every 10 battles. Congrats, 9 battles without subclass.For example, I am in two game groups now I which we had 3 surprise rounds out of 23 battles (I track combat data)
Or I heard complaints from a friend who said that was damm annoying to setup everytime a way for the assassin to go ahead and generate surprise. A bunch of knights with full armor making a lot of noise. Rogue was often running from foes as tried to go alone ahead and actually made the battle way more difficult.
Don't get me wrong, it can be great if your DM generates surprise every second round. But let me say he does. You doubled the amount of SA D6 for one turn every second battle (sweet!). A swashbuckler or inquisitive that can more easily generate conditions for sneak attack, can do many off turn sneak attacks (if built for it) doing more damage than a crit. My inquisitve last game session generated conditions for 16 sneak attacks over 10 rounds (my group actually helps with the setup, but it's way more fun friendly for the party than playing alone).
When you finally reach 17 levels of assassin you find out that every big baddie can detect you from miles of distance and has good CON saves.
Assassin is unfortunately a subclass that pays the price of have being designed in the PHB. If this were done today, it would be much better.
In the end, if you have fun, and it is effective in your hands, is what matters most
Yes, I played with assassin (only one shot though)I really like rogues. I tested them all except thief, phantom, and soul knife.
I've actually used the Arcane Trickster as a Witch-hunter type character. Dispel magic, counter-spell, detect magic, identify, misty step. Was doing enough damage with my weapons but freeing up the spell-casters to focus on damage dealing while I could help protect the other party members. So much fun to play both in combat and exploration.
Been waiting for this video! Keep up the good work guys
Something big on Arcane Tricksters and Haste by the way- and just Rogues having ready access to haste in general:
Using the additional action granted by Haste, the rogue makes one attack on their turn.
They can then use their main action to Ready Action an attack to be triggered immediately after their turn. Since Sneak Attack is a once-per-turn feature, Haste grants rogues the ability to readily score two sneak attacks every round, doubling their damage. If you have a caster in the party capable of casting haste, beg them to cast it on you. It's such a massive bonus to a rogues, and therefore the parties, damage.
Finally! Rogue recieved some love from Dudes.
Love your work, keep it up!
I hope there will be an overall comparison between all the different classes, and their best/worst subclass by the end of this series!
That would be great!
Or a couple of one shots with "the best party" or "the worst party"... The worst being probably the most funny out of the two.
Oh that thing about combining shadow blade and booming blade... as of Tasha’s that’s impossible because booming blade now requires an attack with a weapon that costs at least 1 sp and shadow blade doesn’t have a cost.
I was also thinking that, but I think if a group has been using that then they're probably just ignore that material part instead of change the gameplay they've been using up until now.
A generous DM might also ignore cause it's cool, and to help rogues keep up with front liners in damage.
But yes this change in Tasha's has stopped this interaction as far as RAW goes.
Yes and no. It is really up to your DM from now on. Jeremy said it himself in a twitter post, but also didn't specify that as RAW it is allowed
mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1327132714013782017?lang=en
It was an amazing review. I completely agree with the reasons to ranking it. Most of players run into assassin because misinterpretation of surprise. I've played a campaign that master ruled that as written and I couldn't use any of mine subclass features even once. For that campaign it was certainly a D ranking.
Shadow monk/ arcane trickster rouge would be a nightmare😆
Halfling assassin in Dragonheist was fun. When we went from Dragonheist to Mad Mage it quickly became diminishing returns.
I think y'all are WAY too generous giving assassins a "B." It's no higher than a "C," imo.
EDITED: Just watched the full video, and I can't believe that the community felt more positively about the assassin than the thief.
Fast Hands is criminally underrated. One hidden powerful use of it is pairing it with the Healer Feat. You can now use Healer Kit Healing as a bonus action, turning you into a speedy battle medic.
Or pair it with an Artificer to be faster at using your own items.
Use two items in one turn!
@@jcdenton2187 Fast Hands works for Healer's Kits, but it can't be used to use a magic item as a bonus action. It's mostly a situational ability for interacting with environmental obstacles and objectives, which is why it's not a great ability, because it's very dependent on the DM creating scenarios that would make use of it, or the player being very proactive and creative in inventing uses for it.
Agree, I think it's just a reflection of people seeing the word "Assassin" and "Auto crits" and then don't really read anything past that.
People could also be rating how good it is as a multi class option. Personally I still think there are so many better 3 lvl multi class options than 'crit on suprise' feat.
thanks! HeroForge was perfect for our Wizard and Bard dungeon dudes- Herosaly Dracmaar and Zian Lotus! Had a great time in Storm Kings Thunder levelling these guys up and topped it off with Heroforge mini's of each character.
My son literally just fell asleep when I got the alert. Looking forward to watching more of your content 😁
To anybody thinking of creating an Arcane Trickster: I strongly recommend acquiring the Metamagic Adept feat for your build, and specifically for Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell. The ability to make one of your spells a bonus action instead of an action, and thus allowing you to attack in the same turn, is brilliant. And the ability to cast Mage Hand without its V/S components is perfect for the flavor of the class.
Well this timing worked out well
Agreed. Just today I was looking into what rogue subclass would be best for a crossbow expert build.
Would you expect anything less from a high Dex class?
Hearing Monty describe the “Money Shot” when describing the Assassin made me chuckle.
Time to see just how bad my choices are, lol
Fantastic video! Love what you guys do so much. Arcane Tricksters are still fairly OP because of new spells like Tasha's Mind Whip but sadly they can no longer combine Shadow Blade with Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade. Personally, I'm eager to try Fireball with Magical Ambush.
I also prefer Thief to Assassin just because i think they make the ultimate tomb raider adventurer type which can also do well in the wilds, especially if you choose a race with a swimming speed like Lizardfolk. Magic is great but it can also be a crutch that can be nullified in a number of ways so it's good to play a character who isn't too dependent on it sometimes.
So, what I'll say is they're right about the Arcane Trickster being the best, but I feel like these guys might be overestimating how good magic is in this game, and forgetting how few spellslots there are for 1/3 casters.
Not only spell slots, but straight foward spell choice.
At the point you got Counter Spell you'll be like 6 spell levels under what you need to Counter and rolling the test every single time.
Enchantment is also a pretty bad School over all since a lot of the spells make the target hate you for no reason once the effect ends, meaning that Arcane Tricksters will be using only one school in most of the times.
I think this class would still be the best with even less spell slots tbh.
It's not so much that they don't have many spells. It's more so that they have a large skill set, and having access to any spells at all completely changes the way they can apply these skills. Disguise self, find familiar, mage hand, minor illusions. These are average spells to a wizard, but in the hands of a rogue you could do so much more, especially when you compare that with Assassin's and Thieves.
You know, you guys really changed my mind on arcane trickster rouge. I thought it wasn't good before but really like it now