I think what a lot of people are missing with these rankings is that this is just comparing bards to themselves not to other classes. A D level bard is not the same as a D level Ranger. Bards are awesome even at there weakest. This conversation is literally the kids with GPA's between 3.8 and 4.0 arguing over who is smarter.
Time stamps 0:00 sponsor 1:03 intro 1:20 Bards and how awesome they are 1:37 ranking system 2:58 part 2 of bards and how awesome they are 3:58 College of eloquence 9:26 College of Glamour 13:04 College of lore 16:54 College of swords 22:10 College of Valor 26:57 College of Whispers 32:28 conclusion
"The valor bard doesn't have to use a melee weapon, they can pick up a bow" That one sentence just makes the valor bard SO much better than everyone gives it credit for, as it makes the bard a support-damage dealer from a good distance away, being able to cast buff/debuff spell, and then shoot enemies with a bow for a huge amount more damage over time than any other subclass.
Well, here's the thing. What I understood from the explanation as to why Swords was a D was that "It doesn't do what bards are supposed to be doing.". I think the reason the community disagrees on it being a D is because the point of the subclass is to not do what bards are "meant" to do. People pick Swords because they want to play the bard in a non-supporting or much less supporting role. And for that, Swords is great. I would say "If you want to play support, Swords is a D. If you want to play a self-centered combatant, it's a B or A.".
I think a point made by another commenter kind of sums this up well. These rankings are made by comparing a bard's subclasses against each other and the role that a bard typically plays in a party. If they are ranking it based on what a bard typically doesn't do, then generally they are ranking it by what other classes do, and typically do better. I think that's the issue and the reason for the low rating. Because if you do think about this from a more self-centered view... you've got a max of 20 charisma so at any point you're going to be able to do your blade flourishes a max of 5 times in any given encounter until you reach 14th level. Starting at 5th level you then have to wait until you've had a short rest to benefit from your blade flourishes. You get a minimum of 3.5 average on a d6 at lower levels and an average of 6.5 to damage at the highest. So rounding that up an extra 4-7 damage 5 times a short rest is an average of 20-35 extra damage for all 5 uses of your inspiration. At 14th level you can finally use that d6 on every attack, but the options anyone else has by this point will eclipse this extra damage so greatly that it may as well not even be there. So with that in mind... the other things aside from damage would have to be good enough to justify not using your inspiration for normal bard things. Defensive Flourish adds the number rolled to your AC until your next turn. With an average of 4-7 this is actually a huge bonus. But if the enemy isn't focused on you, and it has little reason to be with the small threat your damage provokes, and the fact that this is only benefiting you and no one else...all this serves to do is protect you staying in melee so you can continue to not do very much damage. And only for a single round. This could be potentially very good once you reach 14th level and could use it every turn, but that's so long to wait for a feature to become sometimes good. Slashing flourish allows you to deal damage to an additional target equal to the number rolled on the die. Again with a 4-7, this is already eclipsed by a green flame blade doing the ability score modifier to a second target at the earliest and then eventually climbing to 3d8 additional damage to the first target and 3d8+5 to the second. The fact that this ability is dwarfed so handily from start to finish by a cantrip is crazy. Mobile Flourish allows you to push the target away from your 5 feet with no save which is decent, plus a number of feet equal to the number you rolled on that die. This has potential, because eventually at 14th level you can push a target an average of 9 ft a turn with a minimum of 6 ft Which can be great for maneuvering the battlefield without expending resources. However it takes you getting to 14th level to get that battlefield control. You can then use your reaction to move in close with them which I guess is fine if you want them to provoke AoO from you still. Typically, forced movement doesn't provoke so a lot of this benefit you can get from the telekinetic feat. Or any number of spells to lock, control, or move a target. The biggest issue of all of these of course being that none of them are a free resource until a whopping level 14. So until then you're using a bardic inspiration die to gain a minor amount of damage and a minor benefit. Meanwhile any self respecting bard can instead give that inspiration to their ally. From there that inspiration can cause some pretty clutch stuff to happen. While a 4 damage bonus average is minor...a 4 bonus on a roll is HUGE. Bumping a save from a 14 to an 18 and causing it to pass where it otherwise would have failed...at no additional action on the user's part can...prevent your ally from being mind controlled, prevent a huge amount of damage from a dragon's breath attack. Help them land an attack, and while your attack would have done 1d8+7+bardic inspiration...they who are built for dealing big damage are doing big damage turning your bardic inspiration from a 4-7 damage boost...to an entire attack's worth of damage boost. Even college of valor bard's AC boost can be used by the individual as a reaction and thus boost their AC as its needed instead of preemptively. Sorry, I didn't mean for this to go so long but the point is even calculating out the numbers of it and weighing the pros and cons for someone acting as not a support it still becomes such a deteriment. A 2 level dip into hexblade would be almost (if not) better than the entire College of Swords subclass.
Sorry, I do that. tl;dr - Even taking it into account as a selfish class instead of a support, swords bard doesn't stack up to other party members who are meant to do the same so it ends up doing their original role worse than a bard, and their new selfish role worse than almost everyone else.
RE Swords Bard: it feels like this is really just a matter of how you plan to use your Bard, and it's really telling that you describe it as selfish. To be clear, I don't think that is wrong or invalid, just that if you go to the Swords Bard with the want to play a Lore Bard then you are absolutely going to be disappointed. But even in the lore for the class, "Blades" are described as being covert operatives or vigilantes, and their focus for performance is knife throwing or sword swallowing. I think there is a lot there to really appreciate. If I may, I suggest approach it with the same mindset that you might approach the Eldritch Knight, Hexblade, or Swashbuckler. A Swords Bard is functionally quite similar to these in so far as they are a melee class who sacrifices the extra attacks of a high level fighter for much more potent spellcasting, or a stealth class who sacrifices sneak attack for the ability to also fill a support role or make a second attack. The additional proficiencies are pretty lacking, since the difference between a scimitar and a shortsword or rapier is really just flavour, but being able to use Bardic inspiration to buff your own skills as an option can be really helpful. And at higher levels it stops being an issue, because they gain the ability to use a D6 for those abilities instead of their inspiration die.
I'm with you here. I quite like that the Swords Bard changes the baseline approach to combat to be more of a swashbuckling duelist. I'm glad there are subclasses that break the norm for a class and the College of Swords is my favorite.
I agree. I think one thing they didn't really consider is how good swords and whispers can be once you multiclass i have a college of swords bard / hexblade warlock multiclass and its awesome :P that gives you shields proficiency, hexblades curse and you now use your charisma modifier on your rapier or longsword attacks. I totally agree that they kind missed a trick by comparing it to other bards rather than other classes that this subclass is trying to emulate. the swords bard is a very specific kind of play style, a caster duellist. but its a really good option, particularly if your in a melee heavy group. in my experience combat usually goes a little like this. in the early turns use your spells to crowd control and debuff the NPC's. they once you feel the battlefield is in your favour swoop in with your rapier (and bonus action spiritual weapon thanks to magical secrets) and go to town. it may not be as good at mele as a fighter, and may not be as good a support class as a lore bard, but it gives you a very different play style to most bards and can help fill gaps in the party if you feel you could use another player to muck in in melle (particularly in small partys)... even if it just to give the fighter flanking it helps a lot :P
I'm playing a swords bard with 3 levels in hexblade. The issue is if you go straight college of swords I can see why it's not as good. But with a good synergetic multiclass it's really great.
I’m playing a bard + barbarian multi class (bardbarian) with three levels in each so far. College of swords was the obvious choice. It’s a little damage buff I can use without breaking my rage. Plus its pretty fun to turn invisible and show up out of nowhere, a crazed raging barbarian. The multi class was for flavor reasons but the college of swords really helped it work out :)
A case for sword bards: its a dexterity paladin. You play a swords bard when your party needs a frontline skirmisher bard which i think is the most bardic thing ever. Each subclass pushed you towards a different role in dnd. Valor: support tank, Lore: utility caster, Whispers: rogue-lite, Glamor: healer, Eloquence: face, and SWORDS: fighter. You take the subclass when no one uses your inspirations and now you are a full fighter but with spells (at 11th level, by taking haste, you have the same AC and attack totals as a plated fighter.) and then at 14 you can start giving out inspirations. Defensive Flourish is an incredible ability. if you are hasted and have shield your AC is at minimum +8. Bladebards can be built into badass fighters and pair excellently with 2 levels of paladin or warlock Edit: Magical Secrets or Magic Initiate for Shield and Haste spell. You can still make x3-4 attacks per round depending on dual wielding with a +7 AC from magic spells then throw out a Bonus Action healing word to revive and ally all without multiclassing. Id say thats pretty powerful
So again they’re saying that their ranking are being compared to bards alone, and they are not considering multi classing. This is about subclass purity so I agree with their ranking. A full college of swords bard just isn’t that good.
"The Bard's Strength comes from its versatility." I agree Kelly, which is why I had such a great time playing a College of Swords Bard. I was the party's primary healer, and the party's primary controller in a recent campaign. I would often drop a control or buff spell (concentration) to start a combat, use bonus actions for healing word, hold reactions to counterspell, all while contributing a decent amount of melee damage - far beyond what Vicious Mockery provides - to preserve spell slots. The biggest issue with college of swords is that you almost need to do a 1-level dip into Hexblade to attack with CHA (and get shield proficiency, plus the Shield spell), or spend a feat to get Shillelagh for the same to make it really work.
They really undersold the Swords Bard. It doesn't deserve D Tier at all. Swords Bards do indeed prioritize your Inspiration for yourself, but that's not taking away from the class. It's allowing it to fill a different role in the party while still being great at Bard stuff.
I just reached lvl 4 with my first character ever, a swords bard, and my idea is to place cloud of daggers and keep enemies in by mobile flourish and the telekinesis feat push. I have no idea how its gonna play out but im very exited to try it.
Umm, I don't think you really need to dip. Bards already favor DEX alongside CHA, now you either accept that your DEX bonus will be +3-4 and use your flourishes to help offset the lost melee damage, or you swap the priority and take +3-4 CHA. Unless you're hard min-maxing, the class works fine on a point buy or array spread.
@@willieoelkers5568 The class works fine as-is, but the single level dip gives you so much that it is extremely difficult yo justify not taking it. Gaining proficiency in shields, plus the Shield spell, along with something like booming blade (especially since you're almost certain to take the War Caster feat) is a lot to leave on the table. That said, Bard is an incredibly strong class on its own, so sure - you'll be a very strong character even without the dip.
I feel like if you look at their arguments in a different light it says something totally different. Their reasoning for putting valor bard lower (and I would guess swords as well) is that they are too specialized. However I would argue the opposite. These two subclasses add weapon/armor proficiencies to the class as additional tools to use that the other subclasses don't have. While the eloquence bard gets way better at using inspiration, I wouldn't say they have MORE versatility. They actually seem more specialized which I think is what makes them so strong. The only more versatile option they ranked high in my opinion was the lore bard because it can lean more into different types of spells. I just thought it was interesting that depending on how you look at it, their argument looks totally different. I don't feel valor or swords bards are designed to ONLY use weapons, but rather that it is another tool they are given to use. But that's just my perspective.
This is exactly how I first saw the College of Swords. I thought it was a very interesting idea that makes the bard able to use weapons, and the Blade Flourish ability, makes them behave similarly to a Swashbuckler Rogue in my opinion. With the power of this College, you can become of temporary frontline if need be. You have Defensive Flourish to increase your AC, Slashing Flourish helps with damage, and Mobile Flourish can be used to push and annoy your target, forcing them to attack you. Especially once you reach 14th level and you can use a d6, instead of expending a Bardic Inspiration. So in my opinion, College of Swords increases the capabilities of what a Bard can do, by making them flexible enough to get in and cover the job of a frontline character for a couple turns while they move around or recuperate.
@@spanishinquisition7623 It' can't not hold up well. Like they said, unless you just choose REALLY bad spells and use your inspiration dice really frivolously and badly, and/or roll shitty for your stats...you can't really NOT succeed as a bard. They are just strong options regardless You get tons of skills, decent HP for a caster, light armor (not amazing but more than a wizard), and level 9 spells. While I don't necessarily agree with them 100%, they are correct that bards are too strong not to succeed with regardless of your college.
@@shino4242 Having played a college of swords bard in my current campaign (unfortunately she died to a lich, fuck Power Word: Kill), I would give it a C ranking. Having to choose between using a blade flourish and giving inspiration is a tough decision, and you have to deal with it until level 14, but it is a matter of weighing your options and really depends on how the battle is going. I don't think it really takes away from the bard as to give it a D, but the fact that blade flourish uses your inspiration die makes it something I was personally was a bit reluctant to use, so I would put it on the C ranking
I think what Valor and Swords both offer more than anything else is a bit of durability. Being able to take medium armor usually is the difference of about 3 AC early on, and Swords Bard can do pretty solid damage and offer massive AC boons through their inspiration use. That in itself is something few of the other subclasses come close to offering, all while offering the boons of a full caster which compensates for the fact that they won't be as good. Of course, the other types of bard get boons in other areas, more prof, more, spells known, strong boons e.t.c. Just I feel these classes offer some sticking power that a full caster would traditionally lack in exchange for lacking it's extra abilities. After 11th level, balance typically goes out of the window anyway, so being lacking compared to a dedicated expanded skillset bard in later levels isn't really an issue.
The thing about College of Whispers is sure, you can look like someone else using Disguise Self, but that means you'd have to have learned that spell, then use a spell slot to cast it. Mantle of Whispers does not require you to have learned the spell, nor expend a spell slot. So I guess it depends on what resources the player is looking for, because yeah, requiring the person to die in order for you to impersonate them isn't great. We had a Whispers bard in our campaign, and he used this feature twice. It went well both times, but in a year and a half of playing, two uses isn't much.
It’s good, but only in a heist. But their other abilities are still great - being able to unsettle somebody during a parley is great, and it’s worth considering that you can still get the ability off during combat if you start talking before the battle begins. And their Psychic Blades is way better than Sword Bards damage output wise and allows you to supplement a party who lacks a Rogue - and Psychic Damage is often something creators aren’t resistant or immune to.
@@TheHandgunhero more than just heists. assassinations can be made much easier when the escape plan is walk out as a guard you took the form of earlier and disguise self can easily be seen through as its dc to see through it is your spell save dc vs the enemy Perception and early on thats almost easy enough that an average guard does that passively and information gathering can easily be hand waved away by the mantle of whispers by walking in as a guard looking around for an hour and leaving. another thing i personal use my psychic blades for (which is not melee only as was stated it only requires a weapon attack such as a bow) is like a better smite since they come back way faster and cap out way stronger, but have the exact same rules of use (except the smite can't be used at range)
Chris Stinson I feel the Whispers Bard literally takes what is amazing about Rogues and Bards (both of which are candidates for perhaps the strongest classes in the game overall) and mixes them together for nothing lost.
I have a shadow sorcerer 3/whispers bard X/rogue 1 that uses upleveled shadow blade and psychic blades to do rogue level damage. She's a changeling, and in addition to her combat prowess, she has 4 expertise skills, and a bunch of utility spells. For my build, no other type of bard would do the job.
As someone who is playing a swords bard in a campaign right now I feel you left out a crucial aspect that is granted to them which is the ability to use any simple or martial melee weapon that your character is proficient with as a spellcasting focus for all our bard spells. Which could allow a bard to wield a shield and a sword if they picked dueling and later gained proficiency with shields or duel wield scimitars or rapiers and still cast our spells without the use of any instruments due to us effectively becoming dancing bards. Not only that but using your bardic inspirations to use a flourish doesn't have to be selfish as it can be used in a way to make us deal more damage with a strike while also making us harder to hit or cleaving damage to surrounding enemies or even repositioning an enemy 5+ feet away from us/the rest of the party and either move back in front of them as a reaction or stay back and force them to move back towards the party. Not only all of those awesome things but at 14th level we can choose to keep our bardic inspirations and opt to use a D6 as our flourish dice instead.
I am currently playing a swords bard and I am actually playing it exactly how you described lol. I still assist my party with spells but when I really want to get down to it I have Defensive Duelist to help keep from getting crushed that stacks with Defensive Flourish and I also use mobile flourish to try and keep enemies off my party member's backs. I basically dance around the battlefield.
Know what else offers "the ability to use any simple or martial melee weapon that your character is proficient with as a spellcasting focus for all our bard spells"? A Ruby of the War Mage. It does require attunement, but it's a _common_ magical item.
@@DurandalsFate the Bard's ability is totally reliable, while a magic item depends on your DM. Even it being a common magical item, some DM won't let you have it without some hard process/quest, while the subclass gives you this for free at level 3.
Less passion, more just irrational, emphatic hatred of the College of Whispers, that I can only attribute to having misread the features. Every feature they mentioned, Monty and Kelly both only gave a slimmed down version of the descriptions that absolutely failed to do them justice, for Whispers and Swords both. I can only hope they decided to make adjustments to their rankings in Part 2.
I am playing in a campaign with a 1 in fighter and 14 in swords bard i use a crossbow with crossbow expert and sharpshooter. For my level 10 magical secrets i took greater find steed and for level 14 i took simulacrum and tensers transformation. Unfortunately i have not used simulacrum yet but when you have tensers transformation on yourself and on your griffon it does a ton of damage and with simulacrum you can double that damage
@@joeportelli5557 Oh the stories I could tell. Pretty sure it was the 5 natural 20's in a row inside a brothel coupled with the fact that I made her bbeg cry in the corner with existential dread every round during the last fight, effectively making him useless, that pushed it over the line.
I assume because of the fear spell. Not sure why you would make permanent character choice limitations based on the outcome of a straightforward 3rd level control spell. I mean fuck if it’s going to nerf your bbeg fight just fudge the damn roll.
I think my DM would also like to ban me from using a Lore Bard ... Magical Secrets! I helped a rogue deal with the boss by himself while the other PCs dealt with the minions.
Honestly, I think the swords bard ranking is down to a fundamental misunderstanding of what the swords bard is designed to do. Rather than being the “selfish” bard as it were, it’s helping its allies by being the target of aggression. It might rarely provide buffs or benefits to others, but it will regularly debuff enemies and force them to attack it. It isn’t about taking away from what the base bard does. It’s about providing a completely different tool kit to expand the bards options. It’s a different kind of versatile to lore, and significantly more versatile than eloquence, which just doubles down on what the bard does well already.
Looking at the community opinions on Swords and Whispers was so great, especially when Monty looked like he was going to pop a blood vessel on Whispers
Monty messed up on the Whispers. For one, psychic blades is "weapon attacks" not melee weapon attacks. So while concentration is up on a spell a ranged crossbow can put out big damage using this ability. And it operates like smite, you add the damage on hit so you never "waste" the inspiration if you miss the attack. And mantle of whispers doesn't require the bard to kill the humanoid, only to be present nearby. This can be used on party members when they die, henchmen, sometimes the BBEG. And its a short rest cooldown which means oftentimes it can be used twice in a day, sometimes three times. Fantastic ability when you want to know the layout of the dungeon and dont want to take forever casting arcane eye to scout ahead. The only downside of this ability is the 30 foot range. Words of terror is ridiculously strong. Unlike some other charming spells, the target has no idea it happened if it failed. Again, short rest cooldown and no spell slot usage. The 14th level ability isnt that great imo, and i would probably multiclass into a rogue or something after level 10 unless i really want wish or 8th level spells. Fantastic class for utility.
Again though, if a bard, any bard, takes Disguise Self, Invisibility, and Suggestion (all amazing spells many bards will want anyways), don't they have all the capabilities they need for almost any infiltration? When a Bard grants Bardic Inspiration to the Gloomstalker Ranger Sharpshooter or the Great Weapon Master Zealot Barbarian, and that die turns the miss into a hit, aren't they effectively doing way more than extra 2d6 psychic damage? I see how these abilities are all fine and good, but it seems to me that the Bard already can do it already.
@@DungeonDudes use the dissonant whisper spell to make your target run away from you and deal 3d6 psychic damage, make an attack of oppurtunity which is still in your own turn so you can use the psychic blades feature. At low lvls this might be the most damage a player can deal in a single turn (lets say you are lvl 3. You can deal 3d6 psychic dmg from dissonant whispers, 2d6 psychic dmg from psychic blades and 1d8 piercing from a rapier) and that is without even using your bonus action so you can still support another party member.
Dungeon Dudes I would say that the difference is you don’t need to burn spell slots to use disguise self and detect thoughts. If you only have 1 major encounter per long rest than yeah that doesn’t matter, but if you are infiltrating an enemy encampment you may run into a patrol group, as long as you are within 30 feet of one of the enemies when they die you can capture their shadow. You don’t have to worry about spending time taking one alive and interrogating them or use any spell slots to disguise yourself or turn invisible. So if your party needs to fight their way into the encampment after you’ve done recon you still have all of your spells and when you get this at 6 you only have 9 slots. Also instead of an investigation vs your spell DC which would be a max 16 if you rolled for stats and had 20 Cha at lvl 6, with mantle they make an insight check against a deception check +5 so if you did have that 20 Cha that’s a +13 or +16 if you took expertise which means that unless you crit fail your deception check it’s as good/better than disguise self. It is situational and the usefulness of extra insight from Mantle depends on the DM, but I definitely don’t think this class is a trap
Hear hear. Psychic Blades are like smites and boost the Bard’s damage output like no other Bard can do before magical secrets. They can even use Psychic Blades and BI on the same turn. It won’t complete with alpha damage dealers, but it’s not meant to. Hell, you may not even have an alpha striker in your party. It extends the Bard’s versatility in a way that the other subclasses don’t. Dungeon Dudes slept on this one.
@@DungeonDudes don't forget that mantle of whisper is not an illusion and therefore would not be dispelled by any anti illusion ward that "should" be present on any important place, like entering the throne room(or maybe even the fancier part of town).
I think that the sometimes large disparity in the communities voting and what the Dungeon Dudes picked is more a difference of opinion on what each person thinks that a bard should be doing or good at. The D.D. think that the best kind of bard remains versatile and a strong utility caster. In contrast to this some members of the community will fall more in love with the college of Swords, Valor, and Whispers because it is more interesting or powerful for their bard to fit a more niche role. Perhaps the College of lore in all it's strength comes across more bland than some of it's less versatile counterpart archetypes.
With respect, the lore had the biggest margin and both hosts agreed. I think everyone really liked the Lore bard irrespective of them likening more action oriented bards as well.
Blandness was not a factor in these rankings, only the mechanics, and I think this is what the community tends to forget. We saw this in the Barbarian ranking as well, with the iconic but mechanically awful Berserker getting high ranks from the community.
This is definitely a thing. All the people defending Swords and Whispers are just saying "I like this bard subclass because it makes my bard less bardy." and making unrealistic comparisons to fighters and rogues like their characters are somehow more unique and interesting than if they were to just play the fighter or rogue they should probably have played instead. The cope is real.
I really like the college of swords bard because my DM lets me use my bonus action as a cantrip spell. That plus the mark of Orien from Eberron means that there is a lot more stuff for bonus actions. I understand the dungeon Dudes opinion though.I was also a swashbuckler.
Here comes my love balad for the Collage of swords. It's really not played like any other bard, it's a Palladin. I think the class should get a little more love in the early levels, that's where he is really weak. But later, you are a front line fighter. You spend all low lvl spell slots casting healing word with your bonus action to heal yourself. With that healing, your HP equals that of any other frontliner. With the magical secrets, you get Summon Greater Steed. This is a real game changer. It's insanely strong! You ride a flying griphon, you cast Greater invisibility on yourself (and this also casts it on the steed). Now all attacks have disadvantage against you, and all your attacks have advantage! All while flying around. Bonus action healing word keeps both you and your steed healthy for any occasional hit that you do take. I have played this, and not only was this the most fun I had in RP, it's mechanically also very strong!
I don't understand their D rank of college of swords. I went paladin 2 and the rest of the way with swords and they make and awesome tank. I took expertise with athletics and perception along with shield master for bashing. At higher level I used one of my spell secrets for Tensor's Transformation.
The college of swords is Decent, the agile flourish abilities are better than they give it credit for. but it Almost ignores the fact that bards are also arcane casters, the College of Valor takes this dual aspect into account. However if we add a couple of special flourish attacks the class may surprise them even more. Arcane Flourish: using this flourish the College of Swords bard can cast spend a bardic inspiration die and cast a single 0-level spell through their weapon. the attack counts as magic and inflicts the spells damage in addition to the weapons damage. use the better of the bards Magic attack or melee attack modifiers (adding the weapons magical enhancement if it has one to the attack roll as normal), if successful the attack inflicts the weapons damage plus the spells damage. at 6th level you can cast up to second level spells and at 14th level up to your maximum spell level available. Metamagic Flourish: The college of Swords bard learns to enhance their spellcasting through their swordplay. by spending a bardic inspiration the college of swords bard makes a normal attack this round but on the following round may cast a spell as if affected by a sorceror's Metamagic ability. any metamagic ability can be used as appropriate for the spell being cast. this is a powerful ability and can not be used again without a short or long rest to recharge the Bards magical energies, and after using this ability the bard suffers Disadvantage on rolls involving spell damage for 30 minutes unless they take a short rest before the end of that time as their magical energies have been strained and are unpredictable. (these limitations would balance this ability and are recommended they not be bypassed or removed in house rules!!) Not sure what you would think of these but since you have used the class before what do you think of them since the base archetype forgets the bards are casters.
@@jennaherman3859 I really love the thought you have put into this! I especially love the first option. The second one is a bit iffy, so much can change during one round of combat, that making the desision to cast a spell on your NEXT turn, so much can be changed by then. I used my Sword-Bard as a utility caster, using spells out of combat to fly, infiltrate, manouver and be amazing. But in combat, I was a fighter. Just melee combat, and using my bonus action and 1 and 2nd lvl spells slots pretty much only for healing word, to keep mostly myself (and sometimes allies) healthy. This worked amazing. If you wanna spar more about this topic, I'm up for it!
@@VTSfilms I only said the NEXT round to balance it, the Sorceror only initially gets 2 metamagic choices when the option becomes available, this flourish make ALL available on the next round and the bard can choose from any of them. I took inspiration for it from the Wild Magic of 3 and 3.5 versions but the ability to apply Empower to maybe a healing bard spell would be game changing. I mean you COULD say that flourish does not become available till 6th level or later obviously to help balance it out if you don't like the NEXT round option. and i was literally creating these variant Flourishes on the spot without playtesting, so such a potent ability as giving one class unlimted access to another classes LIMITED option felt like it needed SEVERE drawbacks to balance it. Remember sorcerors only get to pick 2 Metamagic powers they can apply at anytime. this flourish burns a bardic Inspiration to allow the Sword bard unfettered access to that ability on his next turn, and yes 1 round of combat can change a lot of things, maybe the bard needs to use an area heal spell so he empowers a healing word on the next round instead of using his reaching spell to blast a target just out of range. with a bard/Cleric healing the party in a single round if they happen to have had some bad luck with rolls or the GM got really lucky. the drawback's of waiting till his next action and the use restriction keep this powerful ability from being abused. I mean if you can use this flourish too often without restriction he basically becomes the best version of a sorceror. so heavy drawbacks would be needed in case someone else was playing a sorceror, no need to breed jealousy between player choices. it's still an S tier ability even with the restrictions, and the other one is easily A tier and both available at 3rd level? that just makes the sword bard OP and above S tier. Could always just let it go off at the start of the next round before anyone else can act. see if your GM will let you try them out and play test them. just Remember this version is more like an arcane Swashbuckler with these additions (though the second flourish has a bit of wild magic feel to it with its restrictions, which is what i was going for). If you feel it's too restrictive the way presented try it in the same round a few times and see how it works for you
I think one of the best aspects of College of Lore’s additional magical secrets is the spells you can take from half casters. There are some unique spells that Paladin’s and Rangers have that seem quite powerful - since for them they get them at much later levels. A bard can just sneak that in 10 levels early and call it a day.
a personal favorite is destructive wave, which is meant to be the capstone paladin spell but instead allows you're level 10 ass to yoink in 10D6 damage to anyone within 30 feet of you *and* knock them prone
College of Glamour has been incredibly fun and i can't recommend it enough. Currently playing it as Bardlock in Curse of Strahd and i am using all class abilities constantly. Enthralling Performance can be disguised as asking someone to review a songtext you wrote ("Can you check for me if this would be appropriate to sing here?") or asking a prison guard what their favorite melody is and humming it. Mantle of Majesty is unmatched in battlefield control and mitigating damage but it truly becomes insane when your party is on the run. Free disengage + dash as reaction always will give you 50% more movement, immunity against sentinel or grapple attacks of opportunity and the potential to free up an action to cast spells or fire arrows without letting the enemy catch up.
Besides what you said, the Glamour Bard is excellent at shaping the battlefield, getting fellow players into position, out of trouble or clearing the way for spells like Hypnotic Pattern. For a class with amazing tricks at combat and social encounters, it deserves a solid A ranking
Mantle of Majesty is The unearthly beauty and command every round. But I agree. Mantle of Inspiration is also very good at helping to keep the Bard from getting tied down as well as rest of party where they need to be. And the temp hp are also a lot of damage mitigation really (at lower levels anyways )🥰. Enthralling performance and d is great for getting info when you blow into town as well as drawing eyes to the Bard for further interactions. Quite often tell the enthralled to make sure they “tell their friends” of how good the performance was and/or how good the party is ( for hiring purposes)😎
Yes! Was gonna come here to say that The Curse of Strahd is the perfect time to play a College of Glamour Bard. I’m teamed up with a Rouge and the amount of shit we’ve pulled off together has been amazing.
@@Lordofthepringless We're still playing (had a longer hiatus) and Glamour is still fantastic. Still only Bard 5/Warlock 1 (Archfey) atm but next 2 levels are going to be incredible; it's been so much fun to level with this character.
MANTLE OF WHISPERS At 6th level, you gain the ability to adopt a humanoid's persona. When a humanoid dies within 30 feet of you, you can magically capture its shadow using your reaction. You retain this shadow until you use it or you finish a long rest. ** you don't have to be the one who kill's it. **
But you still need him dead. And it expires quite quickly. What Martyn said was that other bards could do the same with spells without a corpse to tell everyone you was there when it's found. And even if there's no corpses, the person still going to be missed what will make you the main suspect when they discover what you did.
@@albertonishiyama1980 yes it's only last 1H whoever, you gain access to that creature memories for 1 hour if you were interested in interrogating any given enemy in the battle and they got killed by whatsoever reason you can gain info by using this ability, yes is not all information but it may be a very useful one. I just pointed out that the guy complaining about the ability got the text a bit of that is all.
@@albertonishiyama1980 Hmmmm... Let me think Two spell slots (of which you only have 10 at this level, and every slot counts), one of which requires my concentration (detect thoughts), and both last for very short amounts of time (Detect thoughts lasts for one minute, disguise self lasts for 1 hour). In order to use this effectively to bluff my way through a stronghold I need to spam detect thoughts to see how people want me to react, burning up my level 2+ spell slots (of which there are only 6) and if they make an investigation check against your spell DC (Max 17 having rolled max charisma and somehow got a tome of leadership and influence to bump your charisma to 22) you're fucked. OR My reaction, and in order to see past my disguise they need to make an insight check versus my deception check +5, meaning with expertise and again somehow 22 charisma the minimum I can roll is 18 (Because natural ones only affect attack rolls and death saving throws in DnD 5e) which is higher than the max disguise self DC. On top of all that, I get the information I need to pass myself off as this person for the full hour, not 6 minutes maximum using all my spellslots and my concentration for that time. The answer to what Mantle of Whispers gives you the other bard subclasses don't: Resources. It saves you a shitton of resources you'd otherwise have to sink into pulling the exact same thing off. And you can do it per *short rest*, allowing you to do it multiple times a day. Doing it through spells, you'll be lucky to pull it off just the once.
@@The_Crimson_Witch yeah, and after that you have the same amount of dead bodies / missing persons as you shapeshift. And this pretty obvious trail leading directly to you and your party that anyone can find. If there is divination spells in the target's hand (either being a spellcaster, having caster minions or simply convincing some Justice Clerics you're a criminal) its as easy as asking "who killed these guys?" or something in those lines. If magic is not a option, it stills pretty easy to figure out what happened just by some investigation / diplomacy (as the dead Gather Information skill) checks. You're leting a trail of blood wherever you use this skill to be seem by any amount of testimonys.
I think you guys missed the boat on College of Swords. Spellcasting focus on your weapon + battlemaster-esque attacks that don't use up your bardic inspiration or any resource (lvl 14) + two attacks with weapons that can be powered up by a paladin smite spell taken from their spell list (earlier or higher lvl than a paladin can cast), + the regular bardic inspiration die + skills. All together these give you the ability to dish out some strong damage, have some battle field control and mobility with flourishes, and still be an extremely strong caster and skill proficient character that can both complement your party members and contribute on your own.
I had a glamour bard that basically used Enthralling Performance any chance she got. She didn't need a stage or a reason. Just literally, the moment you get her to talk for a little while she would start rhyming/rapping and enthrall those who listen to her if she could do it for a minute. It didn't work all the time, but it was fantastic when it did. As long as there are NPCs to talk to (or even the party members themselves) you have the chance to do enthralling performance. If you're in a campaign with 0 NPCs to talk to then it's probably useless. But I'm sure even with some creativity you can get a bunch of enemies in a room to listen to a performance. Mantle of Inspiration is battle-breaking. The ability to move around at most 5 party members on the BARD'S TURN and completely restructure the battlefield to your advantage can completely break an encounter. The wizard moves out of harms way, the paladin moves in. The rogue gets into a better position, etc. It's incredible. Enemies sniping us from afar? You'd think we'd have trouble moving up to to them--except I just expend 1 bardic inspiration die and everyone moves up an extra 30 or so feet. Unless they're a monk. Can you say greased lightning? People really underestimate the ability to rearrange the battlefield--and you can do this with bardic inspiration. Which gets recharged on a short rest at level 5. Honestly deserves at least an A for this ability alone. Even if you never use Enthralling Presence in a campaign, Mantle of Inspiration on its own makes this an incredibly powerful subclass. Mantle of Majesty takes concentration, sure. But it can absolutely dominate a battle where enemies can understand you, and you just don't have to use spell slots to control the battlefield. Situational? Sure--but the amount of times it can come up is more than you think. Hell, who said you had to use it only in battle, either? Unbreakable Majesty is an ability that isn't save or suck. It's suck or suck. If they fail the save against you, they can't hit you. If they make the save, they have disadvantage on any spell I cast on my next turn. Glamour is so powerful in every situation.
I still love college of swords - not because it's a great subclass but because it allows casting spells with a sword and grappling people. It's a really nice and unique build that works amazingly well - imho even better than valor bard.
@@GoodOldGamer warcaster lets you use a weapon for the somatic component of a spell. For verbal components, a weapon is obviously not a hinderance. For material components, you still need a focus (improved pact weapon, holy symbol etc) if you have such a focus, you don't need waraster to cast spells with somatic components, as your focus works like a free hand for that purpose Technically, you can also get around warcaster, by dropping your weapon with your free object interaction, and then casting the spell (works perfectly fine, but is a bit strange visually)
I’m seeing a lot of people mention swords and whispers as being like go to class for multiclass options and why that sets them higher, but that isn’t part of the grading. It’s the core class on its own with how it stacks on the bard class alone. And I think that’s what people are missing
@@EAtheatreguy The thing is that this is a rating of just the subclasses on their own. It's unfeasible to consider every single potential multiclass in the game for this, just like it's not reasonable to consider things like RP.
Then if it's about the class alone they fucked up. Bard are spell casters. Talk about arcane focuses. Swords college bards are the only ones that let you use your sword as a focus.
@@franciscoaguirre96 We are not ignoring multiclassing, it's just not a primary metric for us. When there's only one specific build that salvages a subclass, it's hard for us to discuss that in detail without going down a tangent.
brithanoakleaf I’m playing a Sword Bard right now, I like that it gives options to do either support and spellcasting or melee combat. It does suck that you have to choose one or the other and your resources compete. My bard is a punk rock type so being selfish with my inspiration isn’t so much a problem for me in a role playing sense.
My favorite Bard I've played was College of Swords. I was making up as the melee DPS with our tanky/heavy hitting paladin and our two casters. I was also our only true healer (though the paladin took a level in cleric and took some of the immediate stress off me), and it was great! I could solo the big melee boss while keeping casters in check and the rest of the party clears the rest of the room, and then I could step back and play support. It's really versatile and I still RPd the hell out of story performances in taverns and disguised infiltrations. It was a great campaign.
One very important point that was missed with the College of Glamour is that it makes up for the flaw in the standard charm spells in that the targets do not know they were a target when the effect is over. Unlike the Whispers abilities that can be replicated with spells, Glamour makes you much more effective at Charm effects. It should also be noted that performances are not just musical performances that need to be set up but can include oration, so you could technically use these abilities in conversations, so while it's not S tier like Eloquence or Lore, I feel an A tier is justified
I think you misread the Whispers features, which may have affected your ranking. First, with Psychic Blades, it's any weapon, not just melee, and up to 15th level it keeps rough pace with Sneak Attack, but doesn't have any prerequisites. It's a pretty solid burst of damage, any time you need it. Next on Words Of Terror, there is the useful feature that the target doesn't know that you've done anything, and the Frightened condition can be towards anyone. With Mantle of Whispers, you dont have to kill the target, merely being within 30ft. So, you grab the guard's identity, when the Rogue kills him. The identity is far more complete than Disguise Self would allow, including any casual knowledge that the target would have. Having played a Whispers up to 9, I can say that its features are generally useful in enough situations that I never missed my Lore Bard. Whispers delivered continual utility, right when and where the Bard was needed to deliver.
This video showed their bias to their level of campaign complexity they're comfortable with and past experience. They need a boot camp in military strategy and time crunch situations.
I played a NE Whispers bard through level 12 who was undead (via Negative Energy Plane stuff), and needed Mantle of Whispers to hide their undeath in polite society. It proved to be quite a flexible and unique build, and considering how bland 5e's classes tend to be, that made it a good choice in my book.
i feel like it is too situational, and psychic blade is really the only "generalist" feature, while not being great. it is true that is a sneak attack without requirement, but in reality it cost a precious Inspiration dice, and do not scale enough to justify the cost at high level. a rogue can do that damage each turn for free. this is still super better than this even with requirements.... and plus, you do not gain psychich blade at all! you are just adding a psychic smite to an attack... the subclass is not trash and it is super cool in his flavour, but it's definitly weak compared to other subclass of bard and could use a little bit of fixing (like expending spell slots to do psychic blades scaling with spell slot in addition to what we already have, and a bit more proficiencies to help in social adventures (since is its clear intent)...and maybe the ability to have an actual psychic weapon to help in infiltration, like the psychic rogue from UA
@@davidvincent5701 We invite you to watch our campaigns, and assess their complexity for yourself. They are all here on UA-cam. In them, you'll see how we've run a ton of exploration and infiltration scenarios where the players used disguises under time crunches (both mundane and magical) where is was simply untenable for the players to kill the person they wanted to impersonate -- because that person was an ally or someone they were trying to rescue. Alternatively, they needed to impersonate a person who simply wasn't present at the location at the time, or create a completely fabricated persona in order to evade recognition. Or take a situation in our recent Shadows of Drakkenheim campaign, where the players needed to impersonate an individual who had died a week prior.
I have to agree. I played as a Whisper Bard, and sewing seeds of paranoia in a waterdeep campaign (did dragonheist) was fun. Also, capturing a shadow of an enforcer from the Xanathar and having casual knowledge of things about the Xanthar's organization (or lack thereof) was fantastically useful. It also saved on having to cast spells so I can use those resources later whenever we were screwing up other checks... like failed fish hostage situations.
In my opinion the Valor Bard should never be played on the front line, that puts them at B or C level. But they can make an AMAZING, definitely A tier archer. Going all in for Swift Quiver from the Ranger spell list, with Sharpshooter means you can crank out 4 attacks with high damage. And you can boost party AC very high with Bardic Inspiration, and you can Counterspell and cast Hypnotic Pattern, and heal. If you want to play a gish character, to mean they are one of the best at both dealing damage and having versatile spell casting.
@@dragonhearthx8369 I believe that to be true. Ranger is an excellent concept for flavor and specific types of campaigns. But it's often a real chore to make overland wilderness travel compelling for more than a couple scenes/encounters. I've read a lot about making overland distance travel more interesting and compelling, but it mostly means having many, many scenarios prepped... which can mean choices lead to lots of different, unexpected things. But that doesn't necessarily mean fun. Wilderness travel IS A DIFFICULT SLOG. Even in games, it's still a slog. The fact is-the big challenge of wilderness travel is that it is long, arduous and grueling. In fact, without lots of modern gear and prep and experience, surviving in true wilderness is one of the most deadly things for human beings in real life. None of that translates well to TTRPGs. I have been toying with the idea of a Ranger focussed campaign. Where there is a hostile, uncharted wilderness and there's a series of bounty hunter and rescue based story threads that could help make Rangers shine. I mean, that's what rangers in the real world-past and present-do. But ultimately D&D feels most at home in location-based adventures. A dungeon, a city, a ruined temple, etc. Wilderness hexes just don't translate well in my head for D&D. Could such an adventure be difficult and challenging and complex? Sure. But ultimately I think D&D shines in specific locations populated by enemy and friendly NPCs and monsters, with specific lore and stories happening in "familiar" locations. Or at least locations that can eventually become familiar to the players. I'm rambling. But I think a lot about Rangers as the flavor and concept is so strong to me. But in practice it's often a weaker fighter or a good archer with a few tacked on abilities. It's a real puzzle, because even if we've never struck out into wilderness ourselves... it's a relatable, scary idea. Making it into a compelling game experience is so elusive though.
@@dragonhearthx8369 This is not all true. The build described above does not come online till 9th level when the average D and D campaign is wrapping up. If you want a sneaky archer that comes to very high effectiveness at 5th level... Then see Gill's Character in the Dungeons of Drakenhiem campaign, the Gloomstaker ranger is going to come online much much quicker than the that and be effective at level 3 and very effective at level 5. That is the sweet spot in my view for an average D and D campaign. Valor Bard is going to be a great Character just not the best Archer. All depends on what you want to play and your play style.
Great video, though I disagree with the rankings of Colleges of Swords and Valor for two reasons. First, while the bard comes with tons of support power, it's fine if the character concept doesn’t center around “it’s all for you, my beloved party.” Second, the objective of beefing up combat capability with these Colleges isn’t to get as good as a fighter/barbarian/paladin. It’s to get pretty good at something that happens a lot: Doing stuff in combat without using a spell slot. Another take on the bard is that they’re about versatility, and Sword and Valor expand useful choices in combat situations.
I've got to disagree heavily with the ranking of the swords bardespecially considering you didn't even take into account the fact that you eventually don't have to use your bardic inspiration at all to use your blade flourish abilities and can just roll a d6.
Glamor bard's command for a minute for free and the ability for temp hp and to move has save my party's butt and has been so useful. It's at least a A rank :p
Glamour bard has worked really well for me in general, only at lvl 3 at the moment but the temp hp has saved the party more than once, comes up in every single combat, sometimes several times. Even if we only count the temp hp it would give out 15-20 before lvl5 and that is very respectable defensive option to start the combat with, in addition to get the everyone to position. And about the Enthralling Performance, yes, it takes a bit of being creative to get it out and depends a lot about your gm and how potent he would play the effect as but for now it has turned enemy scouts and other problematic persons into helpful tour guides. Would zone of truth + torture get the same outcome most of the time, yes, but I still feel like it would be quite potent charm effect without target getting knowledge of it if you can pull it out.
@@BubblingBrooke yea, I can believe, spamming commands as bonus actions seems like really potent cc effect, not sure what would be the concentration spell that they would have instead? Hold person or haste maybe. Or polymorph, that one might be worth it. But really fighting dragon or something, commanding it to the ground every turn could just lock it down. And since it is small effect every turn legendary resists aren't that much of a thing...
I enjoyed seeing Kelly hold his opinion on the whispers bard, and have it supported by the community votes. I feel like Kelly usually concedes to Monty when they disagree.
Whats the alternative though? Just turn a quick well informed rundown on a subclass into a long debate. Kelly sees the bigger picture and just says fine we'll go with that, and then we move on. Ego can get in the way of a good thing
Honestly, the biggest problem with Whispers bard is that you get most of its tricks by taking the Dimir Spy background from the Ravnica book. Sure you might not be playing in Ravnica, but every campaign is gonna have thieves guilds, spy syndicates, or Harpers. The background fits all those just as well as it fits in Ravnica.
Im playing a whispers bard for more than a year now, the words of terror feature gets used almost every session. It has almost become standard practice to let me be alone with our capive to interogate it. And the political intriges are great. But it depends a lot on the campaign
But it really doesn't depend on campaign. Sure political intrigue is fun, but an ability that gives you a free Frighten condition is excellent. And a bard is the perfect class to take advantage of it. Words of Terror gets used basically every session at my table, as the bard trades monologues with the BBEG. It's a great ability and B tier class.
@@danmurray1996 you just need your party to leave you alone with the BBEG because as written it says you must speak ALONE with a humanoid for 1 minute.
@@albertonishiyama1980 it requires a play style with a lot of intrigue and planning. Which i enjoy, but you must have a dm and a party who are on board with that.
In my opinion, what makes the Sword Bard special is two key things. Firstly, if you make the right feat and/or multi-class selection, it can stand toe to toe with some of the other options that bond benefit as heavily from multi-class. A great example is taking an extra level of Fighter (or even BattleMaster 3 to get both maneuvers and flourishes). However, needing to multi-class should not be the thing that makes Sword Bards good. I understand the argument that Bardic Inspiration and being the party face are often the reason that the Bard appeals to players, but I think it can often be a lot to manage depending on who you play with, nor feel underpowered (if not playing Eloquence of course). What the Sword Bard can do well though, regardless of Bardic Inspiration, is be the party tank. In my current campaign (granted, I did multi-class into Hexblade Warlock and BattleMaster Fighter (long story) so maybe this is unique), I have a 19 AC, Blade Flourishes, and the Shield spell. Using the Maneuvers to punish any enemies that come near me, I can often take heat off the rest of my party. Even without the multi-class, with a few feats such as Magic Initiate and Marital Adept, and you can largely get the core of this build without Multi-classing. Why this matters is it allows you to LEARN when to use the Bardic Inspiration to help your comrades, while giving you an option for a self-buff. This is especially important at higher levels of play, when the 14th level feature gives me a minimum of a d6 to add to AC on a hit per turn, meaning Bardic Inspirations become freed up. Lastly, while my current campaign group doesn't ask for this, I have heard of groups that do ask the Bard to actually sing from time to time. If you are in one of these groups and don't want to sing, the flavor the College of Swords offers allows you to still play a Bard without causing any issues. Is it the most powerful? No. Do I think it belongs in D Tier? No.I would probably say it sits somewhere around C or B, mainly because I don't think any of the Bard subclasses are bad enough that they take away from the Bard (even if some are obviously better). As for this one's particular niche, it allows you to dip your foot into bard in longer campaigns, and might actually be an solid pick for a player's first experience with Bards (or magic in general). That said, this is all just my opinion from my own experiences with the sub-class.
First point, All bards express themselves in other ways. I have a valor bard in my current party that reads from the Edda (Norse mytholigy) to give inspiration. He's a viking. Second, if you want an insane Sword build, use the secrets to pick up summon greater steed. It almost feels like Wizards missed this possibility, it's amazingly strong. Combined with greater invisibility, you are OP.
Preface: no hard feelings for the ratings, don’t take this (or probably the majority of comments) as hateful, because I and clearly many others love the content. That being said... The swords bard gives great self-buff options to a bard so that the class can lean into being more of a powerhouse itself instead of just a support. It’s like how certain divine domains let the cleric be more of a powerhouse - it gives versatility and lets you create your own feeling with the class instead of sticking to that same party role. Also, at 14th level you’re able to use defensive flourish every turn with your d6. Stack that with something like the defensive and you have a super powerful class. Run into combat duel wielding rapiers with the duel wielder feat, cast slow or something (gained through magical secrets) one turn and then once you reach the enemies start slashing. I don’t think the possibilities with swords should be overlooked. Though admittedly, the subclass does lean towards optional rules heavily, like feats and multiclassing, and waiting until lvl 14 for that eternal d6 is annoying, so I understand why it isn’t top tier, but I’d support the community in putting it in A tier
I agree, I played a swords bard who was self centered and arrogant(the group knew this from session zero, as to avoid hurt feelings about a lack of bardic insp handouts) and it turned into a powerful damage character with funny, self centered one liners. Good times!
To add to this, masters flourish isn't restricted to defensive. Plus, use magical secrets to take bless, and you're still loading the party down with buffs left and right, ongoing and to more than one member. I love the dungeon dudes, buuuut...I think this got a lot less love than it deserves.
I line up with the community on the swords Bard. I will say that they don't truly come online until after magical secrets and really take a step up with a single Hexblade level. The addition of the shield spell and shield proficiency gives you a lot more survivability for a melee character with a d8 hit die. You have a lot fewer uses for level 1 spells at higher levels and really can burn them on shield spells without feeling like you're missing out.
The mere fact that the power spike of the bard class is delayed to level 10 because of its subclass is disappointing. Other classes can be potent at level 7 sometimes at level 4, but waiting to level 10 and other classes can do much better than what you wanted to as a frontline caster. Clerics, Bladesingers and Druids will be way more useful than you, and in the end your build for swords bard will feel lackluster. I think the swords and whispers subclasses are for multiclassing similar to warlock class
Im loving these in depth ranking vids. Good insight and gives more to look at when picking subclasses. Our parties bard needs to watch this, he is a college of lore who plays like he's a barbarian. Used bardic inspiration maybe 3 times total.
I played a Swords Bard in a sea-based Pirate campaign. The mobile blade flourish meant I could huck a dagger at any enemy and probably knock over the side of the ship. I was also able to mix up using my rapier and spells, using something like faerie fire before battle, then attacking for 3d8+10 damage per turn, being a dodge tank, and healing an ally with a bonus action. It meant I could get in front of my allies and draw all attention. I know this is very specific to my campaign with the whole incapacitating someone by throwing them off a ship, but felt I should give the Swords Bard some love 💓
"we will be looking at community ratings and take them into consideration!" *community wildly disagrees* "Uhhh, yeah no we're right" xD jk, love the vid and i can totally see why yall dislike the swords bard. i personally think it's a fantastic option for a gish character, especially since you eventually get to choose spells to enhance your fighting from any class (now the cleric no longer needs to concentrate on holy weapon!) EDIT: Also, the swords bard can just as much pick up a bow or crossbow, since the bard already gets simple weapons and hand crossbows. none of its abilities are limited to melee combat, except for its fighting styles.
Something else to add, there is always the possibility of your allies not using the inspiration you give them. In that case, I look at the collage of swords as the "Fine, I'll do it myself" Bard.
We want to hear people's opinions because the question of "Why did people rank this so highly? Are we missing something?" is thought provoking and prompts us to self-examine our own opinions. In this case, we didn't agree with some of the results, but we present the poll results to spark conversation and debate.
Lars Ahrens I played a palabard as well and had a blast. I started with paladin for two levels to get heavy armor, defense fighting style, and smite then went bard. I played him as a spell casting variant of a battle master. I even picked up booming blade with magic initiate. I think where swords really gets the edge over valor as a frontline combatant is at higher levels once master’s flourish comes online.
College of swords fighting style choices give bonuses to melee fighting, but... the blade flourish feature, and all of its options, can be used with ranged weapon attacks. I think you guys missed out on that part of this bard subclasses versatility. They are all indeed “selfish” options, but they come from a short rest depended resource and can be rationed if needed. Especially since their use is limited to one time on your turn. Defensive flourish is an option that roughly emulates the shield spell, but doesn’t require a reaction or a spell slot to use. It can’t be counterspelled either. Usable with any ranged weapon Slashing flourish, though less impactful, can be useful when chip damage is needed to potentially take out a “bloodied” creature who has little hitpoints left. Usable with any ranged weapon. Mobile flourish is a way to do a bit of extra chip damage while also moving a creature where you want them. Your caster friend/party will very much appreciate your inspiration use the first time you fling an adversary through a wall of fire or some other AOE. The option to use your reaction for movement is a nice benefit, but doesn’t have to be used if you don’t want to. Again, usable with any ranged weapon. All that being said, I agree that this is definitely the weakest bard class. But I don’t think it’s quite a “D” tier subclass. It is basically the only bard that has at will damage to contribute, especially at lower levels when a bard doesn’t have the spell slots to cast all day. It can also use a melee weapon as a casting focus, which most other classes can’t do.
Not only do lower level bards not have a lot of spell slots available, but low level bards also can't do much to contribute to damage with their spells either. So having a built in "smite" that comes back on short rests (post 5) is a pretty big boon if the team needs a little more oomph.
I love College of Swords, I play two College of Swords bards for a few sessions now (both level 5 but they started at level 4/5) and I'm only just starting to discover what I can really do with it. I used to mostly use defense flourish and cast some Heat Metal or Cloud of Daggers in between. Now I talked with my DMs about revising my spell list and added more support spells. I casted cloud of daggers and used mobile flourish to push my opponent back into the cloud while dealing damage simultaneously and healed myself or others (depending on my current hitpoints left) with Healing Word without loosing my action. I love that I can use my weapon as a spellcasting focus and it really gives me the option to use both spells and melee attacks and combine them for maximum damage and maximum survivability. It really only adds more versatility for me like I can do everything with my bard and I love it.
What I like about the College of Swords Bard is that I feel it enhances a Bard's already incredible flexibility. If the Bard had any weaknesses (yes that's a big if) they would be pure combat ability and they can't use their inspiration dice on themselves. Since it fixes both of those, I think a College of Swords Bard is one of the most independently capable subclasses in the game, in addition to still being incredibly strong in a group. I think where you guys are getting stuck on it is that you still want to force it into a traditional Bard role, but this subclass very much changes the character's role. You're adding a bit of fighter without giving up any of your spellcasting advancement. On a related note, I created a Sky Pirate subclass meant for Eberron by basically taking the College of Swords Bard and swapping out the armor proficiency and duel wielding style for firearms and archery style.
@@logangeorge8960 hard disagree. Lore can only boost their own ability checks - attacks and saving throws aren't boosted by Peerless Skill. The main reasons swords doesn't get the proficiencies Valor does are: A) defensive flourish replaces the need for a Shield. Heck if you MC into hexblade and pick up the shield spell, you become one of the highest ac tanks in game (you can achieve a slightly lower AC by just getting Shield via spell secrets) B) Swords is a Dex based melee sub class. Valor doesn't have to be either of those two and is better served not being on the front lines at all (which ironically makes Lore a better choice in that niche!). This is what dictates the additional weapon proficiencies for both. It also falls into different tropes. Swords plays very much like a dervish fighter, dancing around the battle field in a whirlwind of blades (dervishes used curved blades - aka scimitars, hence the proficiency). Valor plays towards a skald fantasy, so a different type of combatant altogether. You say Swords is a mutated child of Valor and Lore - I say it's more of a hybrid between the Battlemaster fighter and Bladesinger wizard, giving you the gist of what those two classes offer, without having to MC.
@@haerdalis84 Not really a comment on the OP, but I would say that Defensive Flourish is a poor replacement for a shield because it is hit dependent and very limited use, versus a static bonus. Also, the strength of the Valor Bard when compared to the other two is the ability to switch between melee and ranged as needed. There's nothing inherently pushing the VB to be either, which allows them to take advantage of both modes. I do agree though that the Swords Bard is a DEX based melee subclass. Meaning, its fighting stat should be prioritized for maximum effect. Keep the spells for allies and self, instead of debuffing the enemy. It's just played in a different way. (Is effective in its own right)
@@jagdhillon757 limited use until level 14 sure but shield is also limited in use. As for hit dependency - swords bards can attack 2-3 times per turn. Missing all 3 is pretty unlucky if you have decent Dexterity.
Valor bards can take paladin spells as their magical secrets, and sooner in a lot of scenarios. Just something to think about if you're interested in that
I would point out that College of Whispers basically gives a melee Sneak Attack that is just vastly superior (better damage type, no need for advantage, no finesse requirement). College of Whispers could be a great multiclass Bard for a Fighter who doesn't want to fall behind in dmg output.
Hey guys, great show! You obviously know your stuff. I think a really good series now that you've covered so many different classes and subclasses would be a comparison of the various tiers. For example compare all of the different a tiers or compare all the different S tiers and rank those against each other, cross class. That would be an interesting exercise. It would be especially interesting if by comparing the Bs versus the Bs that you end up bumping a subclass up or down from its original ranking. It would also give you a chance to finally crown the s King and the d fool.
I love using enthralling performance, and try to use it as often as possible, usually once a long rest. It can really give a whole new dimension to social interactions. If you can get away with playing music during an encounter with a factions’ leader it can go a long way towards securing alliances or avoiding combat. It only lasts for an hour, but they don’t know you charmed them. I once used this ability to con a guy into signing over his castle 😁
It’s odd that despite all their talk of the bard’s versatility, they have a very narrow vision of what the class can be. You wouldn’t call a fighter selfish for using their superiority die to boost their damage. And thankfully we’ve moved away from expecting clerics to spend all their spell slots on healing others so they can do cool things too. But for some reason every bard still has to be all support and social interaction in their eyes.
Yeah swords bard being D tier was a huge miss. Some people want to be a martial class with a lot of tricks up their sleeve and the SB has that in spades
My twilight cleric is very heavy on combat and she loves items to use in combat, so I agree, the same way clerics shouldn't only be viewed as healers, bards aren't just support. My bard is a "looking out for herself first"-kind of girl 😅
Thank you I totally agree here also I imagine most bards being selfish and narcissistic anyway and the swords bard plays right into that role play wise
Talking about the whispers bard. There is a valid notion on calling it overspecialized and niche. But, what it does it does incredibly well, and the situations in which this happens are, from my experience in two entirely different campaigns, only as far inbetween as you make them. I have to say, having played a whispers bard, that they have the abilities to be rogues with full spellcasting. Truly, not even giving up any of the rogue's features. You just make up for them with spells and then some. I would like to give some arguments for the B tier, as an incredibly effective bardic subclass, that fills a more niche role within a party. The damage output from the psychic blades is nothing to be scoffed at in the slightest. And bards are, in toe with rogues, the very best class to set up a surprise round of combat for themselves and their party. No other bard will do that same damage on a surprise turn of combat, whether you're fighting monsters or ambushing an intelligent NPC. And all that from a safe distance, using almost no resources. Which is what your B tier stands for, right?
And people tend to forget that Animate Objects, starting at lvl 9, is 65 damage (avg., before crits and AC) for each and every turn, just requiring a single action at the start of combat. Spiritual Weapon is less meaningful but also a bit of a boost from lvl 10 onwards. So you have this regular bard damage plus rogue damage. Until then, you can give yourself advantage with Faerie Fire or Greater Invisibility.
@@piedpiper1185 It's because it's supposed to be broken. It was designed to work in the setting "Mythic Oddesy of Theros", which is based on varies myths like Hercules. The setting operates under the assumption the players will be OP So the lesson here is: don't allow this subclass outside of Theros or other similar settings. Like Warforged, it is a setting specific character option. It's not like the subclasses presented in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, it is only supposed to be used in the setting book it appears in.
@@The_Crimson_Witch I looked at the other subclass from that book though, the Oath of Glory paladin, and it doesn't seem OP to me in the slightest. It feels *solid* - the spells are good, the features are cool, the capstone is very powerful (and actually reusable!) - but it's nowhere near the freight train of unstoppable bulshit that the Eloquence bard seems to be
I think they both were a lot more stubborn and self absorbed in their rankings this time around, so I'd hope that they just remake this video specifically again now that it's out. For me, Creation Bard is easily the best there's ever been, and I'd even say my new favorite subclass in the game.
One of the subclass's main features is adding an always useful bonus to inspirations and the other is gaining a combat pet that can benefit from inspirations. Both of these are almost universally useful. I guess that they'd rate it A or S tier. It would be noted that even if it breaks into S tier, it's still below the Eloquence bard.
College of Swords is a lot more dangerous than you give it credit for. You need to look at it like a spellsword. I took 3 levels as Eldritch Knight and 2 levels as Paladin, and absolutely destroyed a Pit Fiend in single combat. My Bardic Secrets are Holy Weapon, Destructive Wave, Tenser’s Transformation, and Prismatic Spray. Variant human, Defensive Duelist.
I feel many players just miss opportunities for using glamour bard. When you keep watch at night, play a song on your flute, if you get attacked, they have most certainly have been listening to you for at least a minute. Going in the magic item shop? Dance and hum while you look around...charmed shop keeper discounts. Need some compliments from your party? Song of rest wisdom save. Performing for a minute is easier to work into encounters than you might think.
I can't wait for your Warlock examination! I am in love with the flavor of the Pact of the Undying, but... those mechanics. looking forward to your take to help me and my dm maybe improve them a bit.
College of valor is not a melee class, or an archer class, it is a spellcaster that has great AC for that incoming arrow, or that slippy opponent that snuck by the tank. The level 14 ability allows you to add a slight amount of damage output, but it is not going to be great. Half the value of this subclass is just the proficiencies in armor and shields. Essentially, you play this like any other bard, but you might not have to pick up mirror images or some other defensive spell, instead you can use your slots and spells known on other stuff. When Kelly says 'you will look at the other spellcasters and say I'm a spellcaster too, and they will say, no you are not' He is wrong. The sorcerer will cry when you cast wall of force, and the wizard will cry when you cast revivify. Up until 10th level where you get these awesome spells, you are still casting things like Hypnotic pattern, and not breaking concentration at the first sign of an archer, because a lot of those arrows will miss.
Came here to say this, and saw someone already said it well. Its easy to be like “lore bards are great at being casters” until you realize that dropping that haste spell, hypnotic pattern, or polymorph because you had shit ac and got wtecked limits you. Honestly just having 19 ac without trying hard or losing levels of casting by multiclassing is practically enough to make this good; using extra attack as something to be better than cantrips when you dont have critical spells to cast is great as well. Honestly i love this channel and like the dungeons of drakkenheim game, but i get the sense that thsy dont really play healer/support/flex classes and are missing some of the practicalities on this class. Im sure theyll be great at breakdowns for fihters, barbarians, archer byulds etc though...
@@parabostonian2267 If I am playing a lore bard, medium armored is a feat that is pretty high on my list of picks. Because exactly like you say, high AC helps you keep those spells going.
@@peterrasmussen4428 @Para Bostonian IMO, you guys have stated the key point: The Valor Bard fills in the Bard class's inherent deficiencies while taking nothing away from its primary spellcasting ability. Defense and At-will damage are here. Burst spell damage is missing, sure, but that's the purview of the Lore Bard. The trap with Valor is in thinking that their baseline martial class abilities pushes you into a martial build: No, you are still a primary spell caster with access to all of the Bard spell list.
One of my favorite things to do as a College of Glamour Bard was use Mantle of Inspiration in combination with my Alert feat. It turned what's usually a strong defensive ability into a sweet battle opener. Helped my party members gain a favorable position, and give them a small health buff, at the very start of many battles.
I recently challenged myself (well, my friend challenged me) to make characters for races and classes I don't like, and bard was one of them. I gravitated towards eloquence to go for a heavy RP character instead of my usual melee battering ram style. I'm glad the dudes also think it's S tier. However, I've seen someone play a fantastic whispers bard and I cannot agree with those C and D tier choices for it, in my mind it's A tier.
It’s such a god concept but the actual things kinda suck. I actually had a charlatan bard who story wise was perfect for it, but went with glamour instead
@@nathangifford897 yeah allow it to be something like "You may spend one (maybe 10) minutes observing a humanoid..." Or something like that IDK I'm just spitballing
Giving a College of Swords Bard a D Tier because it is not designed to be a support is the same as giving an Oath of Redemption Paladin a D Tier because it is not designed to Smite enemies.
Bottom line: Bard is the best class in 5e. It's good at everything and can do everything. This is a game balance issue that nobody wants to address or change.
The one other class that reigns with it is Druid. Just like the bard they can do it all. Not AS good socially, WAY more effective at multiple roles during combat.
The good thing about 5e is that it's very hard to make a bad character imo. I do find monks and warlocks to be mechanically weaker than most of the other classes, but they are also the two most flavorful imo. The core druid features are robust, but I generally find the subclasses to be some of the least compelling in the game to the extent that I only want to play circle of the moon.
@@culo9999 It is hard to make a bad character, but I've seen it done. My Adventurer's League group had someone join mid campaign with a high elf great weapon fighter. We tried to convince her that a high elf fighter is viable, but needs to be Dex based and makes a great Eldritch Knight. She refused all advice, insisting she needed to be a strength based great weapon fighter, and despite this spent her entire time with us standing in the back and impotently plinking at monsters with a longbow. She also over invested in intelligence (despite not wanting to go Eldritch Knight) and Charisma, because she had skill tied to these stats. Ultimately we spent a month getting her caught up to the rest of us so we could continue with our campaign, and then she quit. She was still consistently doing single digit damage per round at level 5, while the rest of us were averaging over 20 damage per round while only being one level higher than her.
Still they complained that the UA Mystic was too good... To be honest, it wasn't that different from skill monkey classes with a bit more combat oriented feel than a non combat focused base.
I think that if College of Whispers could keep the shadow for a longer time if not permanently, as opposed to until they finish a long rest, that would really bring it up in power and interest. You can walk through a castle, like a Spy from Team Fortress 2 backstabbing everyone and becoming them.
I am actively tuning my character sheet as I watch this. Wonderfully explained and objective - I like that they gave their personal take, but ultimately left it to the viewer to decide what fits for them. Cheers!
I think what they're missing about bards is THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE A SUPPORT CLASS. Bards are designed to fill any role in the party. Face or support? Sure! Take Eloquence or Glamour! But they can also be the fighter with Valor or Swords, a thief with Whispers, and a wizard with Lore. The thing about the bards are they can be good at anything, so all the subclasses can be very good a lot of the time, but sometimes by taking the wrong subclass, you take the party down. The bard is designed to fill any role the party needs, so let them! They're not just support classes! Rant over.
@@DungeonDudes Which of course makes the classes you rated lower than others, better than how you ranked them because the ones you didn't like seemed to simply be filling roles you personally don't wanna be as a bard.
@@xaviervega468 I may only be partial to the style because I loved playing a glamour bard, but finding ways to keep myself out of combat and drop control and buff spells (like polymorphing the party member who is ready to go down) is the way to go as a bard.
My mindset for the Eloquence Bard was still based on the UA version, and I gotta say I'm VERY impressed by the official version. My friend is just dipping into the Bard, and I know the Eloquence Bard is gonna work perfectly for the character she has in mind.
@@snowyowl7991 so, starting at level 3, you can replace any roll less than 9 for charisma and make it a 10, you can use bardic inspiration to subtract people's saving throws. At 6th, a bardic inspiration die doesn't disappear until the roll succeeds.
This was THE BEST TIMED VIDEO EVER. I’m a Bard in my current campaign and just got to level 3 and I’ve been debating the college. This video literally came out the day before I have to make my decision.
Something I want to ask about would be the College of the Road bard that was added into the Humblewood 5e book that came out a little while ago. Being able to sort of pick up 'tricks' from other classes sounds like a lot of fun, further adding to the versatility of Bards in general. Not all of them are super strong but it is a very interesting thought process of taking that versatility of the class to the next level, able to incorporate other classes abilities and knacks into its already strong form. Love these talks and love these analyses. Top notch stuff guys, and thank you for being so open about your love of bards! Wish more people I played with had that same outlook.
So we are just going to skip over the swords last ability to do what they do, with no limit and still share inspirations. Even at lower levels, no encounter is remotely hard or long enough for u to burn thur that pool, even if you run a mostly battle drive not story like my campaign. I even think the term overspecialization is being misused as all subclasses are specialization for your classes skills, also so what if this doesn’t give a shield, with this class and spells choices( not including feats) you can put fighters and spell casters to shame with just your utility and skill. Not trying to sound like a know it all, and if I do I apologize, but I believe it deserves better than a D.
I think they didint liked it becase it changes the way the bard is played instead of enhancing it. What i think is a bad metric becase all classes need basic enhancement sub-classes but having sub-classes that change the way you play is amazing.
They dont have shields because their flourish can add to their AC not to mention you can get smite spells or destructive wave and can still do other bardy things
Gonna have to disagree with your ranking on the Swords Bard. I was playing in a campaign with no tanky characters at all (wild magic sorcerer, diviner wizard, sun soul monk, and me, the Swords Bard). They all were hanging back using ranged attacks while I waded in with my scimitars. I rarely did fantastic damage, but with defensive flourish, I super super difficult to hit. It was a super fun campaign.
But if you're using defensive flourish, you aren't giving your inspiration to your allies. If you're using defensive flourish, you're making attacks rather than casting. If you're using defensive flourish, you're in melee, raising your odds of dropping concentration. Valor is the better option for a martial bard.
@@MultiracialLion that assumes you want to buff your friends? I like swords because I can self buff and be useful. Then again, I'd try to get a shield and use a rapier so I would be a little tankier
@@darthvega3 i play a bard of sword tabaxi and we also have a cleric who uses guidance and bless and enhance ability. I rarely feel the need to use my ID and the cleric is more than happy to use their spells to help the team.
As we said in the video, the Bard is just an incredible class all round so it's possible to have an amazing time playing the character regardless of the subclass. It's just that in a direct comparison we think Swords Bard is just not as good as the other subclasses.
While rewatching this video now, I feel it would be cool to have a more detailed look into bards the same way you are doing with those new videos. I love the updated format
I think you are undervaluing the whispers bard. For evil bard archetypes it's pretty great. Combined with just one level of hexblade you have a bard that curses, hexes, debuffs, steals the identity of people they kill, inflict psychic damage on hit, and causes terror in people if left alone with them for any amount of time.
I completely agree with the assessments. I know we weren't discussing the idea of multi-classing, but since it's become so heated I feel like I should mention something I've done with the Whispers Bard. My players are in an urban setting and their current BBEG is an Assassin Rogue / Whispers Bard. By bringing these together and leaning extremely hard into the ideas of infiltration, stealth, and disguise, I've created a villain who can justifiably be anywhere, be anyone, and it keeps the party on their toes. Not to mention the cohesion of Psychic Blades, Sneak Attack, and Assassinate. For this urban gothic / detective fiction narrative they're proving to be an extremely competent antagonist. In terms of multi-classing in the player base, I find the Assassin / Whisper combo to be a more spell oriented variant of the Assassin / Paladin. By itself though, fair enough on the ranking.
Can i ask what your split is between assassin levels and whispers levels? I am making this exact build and would love to see how it fleshes out at higher levels.
@@TheScottishKayaker It depends somewhat on your needs. If you find yourself looking for something more direct combat oriented, invest in Rogue to 5, 7, or 8 for Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and the ASI respectively. If you want more spell focused, stick to 3 in Assasin.
You guys really failed to mention that the Swords Bard is the best option in the Game for Melee Defense. Even without taking Medium Armor Mastery or Multiclassing so you can get access to Shields, you can very easily sit at a Flat 17AC, with a minimum 1-6 Boost to AC very easily done all of combat. With a Shield we’re sitting at a 19+1-6, adding in a feat or Multiclass and you’re up into the stratosphere with this subclass, even the shield spell will be a Massive Boost. A Variant Human with the Moderately Armored Feat, can have Medium Armor and a Shield while wielding their weapon and sit at essentially a 19+(1-6) so 20-25, without casting any spells and being a full Caster. This is very potent and for those that want to Play an Amazing Gish or Magical Tank this is the subclass to go for. People LOVE Gish and a Tank that can deal ok Damage but can also cast a full array of Spells and never get hit with an easily achieved Passive 19 AC + 1-6 + 5 with a Shield Spell for a 25-30 AC is a hard thing to just say “Nope, this is definitely the worst subclass”. This bard does far better in my eyes than Glamour.
An Eldritch Knight in Full Plate with the Defense Fighting Style and a Shield has AC 21 all the time, and spikes it to 26 with the Shield spell. No feats or multiclassing are required.
Dungeon Dudes and you’re absolutely right. I hold no disagreement with you there, but they don’t get 9th level spells. When it comes to Gish tanks you will find no better, especially considering you can’t pick up Aid, Armor of Agathys, Find Greater Steed, and a huge plethora of other features that can make you into a much better Melee combatant. I concede that this isn’t the strongest Starting AC without a Shield or any other Features going for it. However, it is by far one of if not the Tankiest option you can get with a Full Caster. (Yes you can argue a Cleric can also have an AC of 20 Statically, but I’ve already shown we can easily beat that turn after turn. You can argue the BladeSinger, but that comes with much heavier restrictions) Thank you so much for the Reply also!
@@keeganmbg6999 A Forge domain cleric with their own class features can reach a base AC of 22, and has plenty of spell choices to increase that further, gains resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage (albeit as a capstone), resistance/ immunity to fire damage, and also gets Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Animate Objects. A Hexblade/ Paladin has a plethora of build options and can achieve AC 21+ and may still access 9th level spells, and has Shield. This is most likely the strongest all-round gish option in the game, being both a fantastic caster, extraordinarily resilient in both AC, saving throws, and hit points, and an absolute wrecking ball in melee. A Bladesinger with Mage Armor, 16 DEX, and 20 INT ramps up to AC 21 in Bladesong, spiking to 26 with shield. Let's also remember AC does not make one a "tank". Beyond a high AC, a tank also needs the ability to absorb damage, survive, and control the battlefield, and draw attacks towards them and away from allies.
Dungeon Dudes of course, you’re absolutely correct. However I only spoke of level 3. If you really want the best AC and Tank, you’ll need a way to Sustain yourself. I see High AC as an option that gives that, any character can have access to Medium Armor and obtain a 17 AC as you can play a Mountain Dwarf or a Githyanki and of course Tortle’s begin with a 17 AC. But that’s not the point I was truly making, if you want to mention Capstone features then the best Tank stands as a Paladin 6/College of Swords Bard 14. 18 AC (Full Plate) + 1 (Defense Fighting Style) + 2 Shield for a Static 21. Every turn you attack your AC increases by a 1-6 without expending any resources. So 22-27, Shield to boost you to 27-32, Concentrating in Haste so you may now sit at a 29-34. You can easily go beyond this with magical items of course. But you can also get Armor of Agathys, retributive damage stacked atop of Fire Shield deals a significant amount of pain to enemies that hit you, combine this with a Mount (Find Greater Steed) which would also be Hasted and you find yourself ridiculously hard to pin down while maintaining a High Dex and likely a moderate to high Cha and Con. AC is easy to find in the game if you know where to look, but only the Swords Bard can so easily reach numbers that other’s wish to Grasp at. I tend to make ridiculous builds just for fun as a DM though, so I look for all weird and ridiculously strong Min-Max options possible...with this in mind, I concede that I may have some bias. Thank you again for the wonderful discussion.
Douglas Martins, that’s actually not true. You don’t have to take your bonus action in any particular order. You can take your bonus action and then your main action. You can de-buff an enemy’s saving throw then immediately cast something like Hold Person.
I think what a lot of people are missing with these rankings is that this is just comparing bards to themselves not to other classes. A D level bard is not the same as a D level Ranger. Bards are awesome even at there weakest. This conversation is literally the kids with GPA's between 3.8 and 4.0 arguing over who is smarter.
"bUt i pLAyEd a WHisPeR BaRd IN mY MOm'S caMpAIgN aND ShE toLd mE i WAs VeRY SPeCIAL aND SmArTer THaN a rANgEr!"
I completely agree with you (and I just have to say I also love kayaking).
@@aaronarndt5956 why thank you! I have actually been trying to incorporate kayaking into my campaign think mini folding boats
TheScottishKayaker that’s super neat!
So people can’t have intelligent conversations, or are you just not use to them
Time stamps
0:00 sponsor
1:03 intro
1:20 Bards and how awesome they are
1:37 ranking system
2:58 part 2 of bards and how awesome they are
3:58 College of eloquence
9:26 College of Glamour
13:04 College of lore
16:54 College of swords
22:10 College of Valor
26:57 College of Whispers
32:28 conclusion
Your a hero in the Dungeon
Thanks!
Thank you
Goat
My man. 👊 Got a bard only campaign coming up and you just made my life a lot easier. Thank you.
I love that the College of Eloquence’s Unsettling Words is just magical gaslighting.
The college of swords bard only gives prof. to scimitar because as a bard you already have prof. to all other one handed swords.
R.i.p two handed weapons. It would be funny to see a great weapon master Bard.
@@heyfell4301 an insanely long necked lute with a glaive blade at the end.
@@heyfell4301 No no no. That's backwards. *The bard* gives the inspiration. 🙃
@@DazraelArianos DM's inspiration. different mechanics
@@DazraelArianos Nah a literal and musical axe like Marceline from Adventure Time.
"The valor bard doesn't have to use a melee weapon, they can pick up a bow"
That one sentence just makes the valor bard SO much better than everyone gives it credit for, as it makes the bard a support-damage dealer from a good distance away, being able to cast buff/debuff spell, and then shoot enemies with a bow for a huge amount more damage over time than any other subclass.
Well, here's the thing. What I understood from the explanation as to why Swords was a D was that "It doesn't do what bards are supposed to be doing.". I think the reason the community disagrees on it being a D is because the point of the subclass is to not do what bards are "meant" to do. People pick Swords because they want to play the bard in a non-supporting or much less supporting role. And for that, Swords is great. I would say "If you want to play support, Swords is a D. If you want to play a self-centered combatant, it's a B or A.".
I think a point made by another commenter kind of sums this up well. These rankings are made by comparing a bard's subclasses against each other and the role that a bard typically plays in a party. If they are ranking it based on what a bard typically doesn't do, then generally they are ranking it by what other classes do, and typically do better. I think that's the issue and the reason for the low rating.
Because if you do think about this from a more self-centered view... you've got a max of 20 charisma so at any point you're going to be able to do your blade flourishes a max of 5 times in any given encounter until you reach 14th level. Starting at 5th level you then have to wait until you've had a short rest to benefit from your blade flourishes. You get a minimum of 3.5 average on a d6 at lower levels and an average of 6.5 to damage at the highest. So rounding that up an extra 4-7 damage 5 times a short rest is an average of 20-35 extra damage for all 5 uses of your inspiration. At 14th level you can finally use that d6 on every attack, but the options anyone else has by this point will eclipse this extra damage so greatly that it may as well not even be there. So with that in mind... the other things aside from damage would have to be good enough to justify not using your inspiration for normal bard things.
Defensive Flourish adds the number rolled to your AC until your next turn. With an average of 4-7 this is actually a huge bonus. But if the enemy isn't focused on you, and it has little reason to be with the small threat your damage provokes, and the fact that this is only benefiting you and no one else...all this serves to do is protect you staying in melee so you can continue to not do very much damage. And only for a single round. This could be potentially very good once you reach 14th level and could use it every turn, but that's so long to wait for a feature to become sometimes good.
Slashing flourish allows you to deal damage to an additional target equal to the number rolled on the die. Again with a 4-7, this is already eclipsed by a green flame blade doing the ability score modifier to a second target at the earliest and then eventually climbing to 3d8 additional damage to the first target and 3d8+5 to the second. The fact that this ability is dwarfed so handily from start to finish by a cantrip is crazy.
Mobile Flourish allows you to push the target away from your 5 feet with no save which is decent, plus a number of feet equal to the number you rolled on that die. This has potential, because eventually at 14th level you can push a target an average of 9 ft a turn with a minimum of 6 ft Which can be great for maneuvering the battlefield without expending resources. However it takes you getting to 14th level to get that battlefield control. You can then use your reaction to move in close with them which I guess is fine if you want them to provoke AoO from you still. Typically, forced movement doesn't provoke so a lot of this benefit you can get from the telekinetic feat. Or any number of spells to lock, control, or move a target.
The biggest issue of all of these of course being that none of them are a free resource until a whopping level 14. So until then you're using a bardic inspiration die to gain a minor amount of damage and a minor benefit. Meanwhile any self respecting bard can instead give that inspiration to their ally. From there that inspiration can cause some pretty clutch stuff to happen. While a 4 damage bonus average is minor...a 4 bonus on a roll is HUGE. Bumping a save from a 14 to an 18 and causing it to pass where it otherwise would have failed...at no additional action on the user's part can...prevent your ally from being mind controlled, prevent a huge amount of damage from a dragon's breath attack. Help them land an attack, and while your attack would have done 1d8+7+bardic inspiration...they who are built for dealing big damage are doing big damage turning your bardic inspiration from a 4-7 damage boost...to an entire attack's worth of damage boost. Even college of valor bard's AC boost can be used by the individual as a reaction and thus boost their AC as its needed instead of preemptively. Sorry, I didn't mean for this to go so long but the point is even calculating out the numbers of it and weighing the pros and cons for someone acting as not a support it still becomes such a deteriment. A 2 level dip into hexblade would be almost (if not) better than the entire College of Swords subclass.
Sorry, I do that.
tl;dr - Even taking it into account as a selfish class instead of a support, swords bard doesn't stack up to other party members who are meant to do the same so it ends up doing their original role worse than a bard, and their new selfish role worse than almost everyone else.
Ohhh ELOQUENCE.... I spent 10 minutes like "This sounds like a good subclass, but what does it have to do with elephants?"
People can't stop trumpeting about it? XD
You play the eloquence bard when you want more bard in your bard.
Yes this is based off what I think Jocat would say.
Now I kind of want to make a College of Lore Bard who says he's from the College of Elephants - because he never forgets.
My current character is a Loxodon so I could be an eloquent elephant
@@shawngallagher8764 Multiclass into Way of Four Elements Monk, so you can be an eloquent elephant of elements.
RE Swords Bard: it feels like this is really just a matter of how you plan to use your Bard, and it's really telling that you describe it as selfish. To be clear, I don't think that is wrong or invalid, just that if you go to the Swords Bard with the want to play a Lore Bard then you are absolutely going to be disappointed. But even in the lore for the class, "Blades" are described as being covert operatives or vigilantes, and their focus for performance is knife throwing or sword swallowing. I think there is a lot there to really appreciate. If I may, I suggest approach it with the same mindset that you might approach the Eldritch Knight, Hexblade, or Swashbuckler. A Swords Bard is functionally quite similar to these in so far as they are a melee class who sacrifices the extra attacks of a high level fighter for much more potent spellcasting, or a stealth class who sacrifices sneak attack for the ability to also fill a support role or make a second attack.
The additional proficiencies are pretty lacking, since the difference between a scimitar and a shortsword or rapier is really just flavour, but being able to use Bardic inspiration to buff your own skills as an option can be really helpful. And at higher levels it stops being an issue, because they gain the ability to use a D6 for those abilities instead of their inspiration die.
I'm with you here. I quite like that the Swords Bard changes the baseline approach to combat to be more of a swashbuckling duelist. I'm glad there are subclasses that break the norm for a class and the College of Swords is my favorite.
Even just a d6 to armor with defensive flourish is massive in 5E's bounded accuracy system. On average it is 3.5 additional AC.
I agree.
I think one thing they didn't really consider is how good swords and whispers can be once you multiclass
i have a college of swords bard / hexblade warlock multiclass and its awesome :P that gives you shields proficiency, hexblades curse and you now use your charisma modifier on your rapier or longsword attacks.
I totally agree that they kind missed a trick by comparing it to other bards rather than other classes that this subclass is trying to emulate. the swords bard is a very specific kind of play style, a caster duellist. but its a really good option, particularly if your in a melee heavy group.
in my experience combat usually goes a little like this. in the early turns use your spells to crowd control and debuff the NPC's. they once you feel the battlefield is in your favour swoop in with your rapier (and bonus action spiritual weapon thanks to magical secrets) and go to town. it may not be as good at mele as a fighter, and may not be as good a support class as a lore bard, but it gives you a very different play style to most bards and can help fill gaps in the party if you feel you could use another player to muck in in melle (particularly in small partys)... even if it just to give the fighter flanking it helps a lot :P
I'm playing a swords bard with 3 levels in hexblade. The issue is if you go straight college of swords I can see why it's not as good. But with a good synergetic multiclass it's really great.
I’m playing a bard + barbarian multi class (bardbarian) with three levels in each so far. College of swords was the obvious choice. It’s a little damage buff I can use without breaking my rage. Plus its pretty fun to turn invisible and show up out of nowhere, a crazed raging barbarian.
The multi class was for flavor reasons but the college of swords really helped it work out :)
A case for sword bards: its a dexterity paladin. You play a swords bard when your party needs a frontline skirmisher bard which i think is the most bardic thing ever. Each subclass pushed you towards a different role in dnd. Valor: support tank, Lore: utility caster, Whispers: rogue-lite, Glamor: healer, Eloquence: face, and SWORDS: fighter. You take the subclass when no one uses your inspirations and now you are a full fighter but with spells (at 11th level, by taking haste, you have the same AC and attack totals as a plated fighter.) and then at 14 you can start giving out inspirations. Defensive Flourish is an incredible ability. if you are hasted and have shield your AC is at minimum +8. Bladebards can be built into badass fighters and pair excellently with 2 levels of paladin or warlock
Edit: Magical Secrets or Magic Initiate for Shield and Haste spell. You can still make x3-4 attacks per round depending on dual wielding with a +7 AC from magic spells then throw out a Bonus Action healing word to revive and ally all without multiclassing. Id say thats pretty powerful
Shield would require subclass. But I want to like the subclass myself.
You really need the multiclass to make them anything
So again they’re saying that their ranking are being compared to bards alone, and they are not considering multi classing. This is about subclass purity so I agree with their ranking. A full college of swords bard just isn’t that good.
This right here. THANK YOU!
"The Bard's Strength comes from its versatility."
I agree Kelly, which is why I had such a great time playing a College of Swords Bard. I was the party's primary healer, and the party's primary controller in a recent campaign. I would often drop a control or buff spell (concentration) to start a combat, use bonus actions for healing word, hold reactions to counterspell, all while contributing a decent amount of melee damage - far beyond what Vicious Mockery provides - to preserve spell slots.
The biggest issue with college of swords is that you almost need to do a 1-level dip into Hexblade to attack with CHA (and get shield proficiency, plus the Shield spell), or spend a feat to get Shillelagh for the same to make it really work.
They really undersold the Swords Bard. It doesn't deserve D Tier at all.
Swords Bards do indeed prioritize your Inspiration for yourself, but that's not taking away from the class. It's allowing it to fill a different role in the party while still being great at Bard stuff.
I just reached lvl 4 with my first character ever, a swords bard, and my idea is to place cloud of daggers and keep enemies in by mobile flourish and the telekinesis feat push. I have no idea how its gonna play out but im very exited to try it.
College of swords kind of sounds like a true Jack of all trades. A little support, a little spell casting, some melee.
Umm, I don't think you really need to dip. Bards already favor DEX alongside CHA, now you either accept that your DEX bonus will be +3-4 and use your flourishes to help offset the lost melee damage, or you swap the priority and take +3-4 CHA. Unless you're hard min-maxing, the class works fine on a point buy or array spread.
@@willieoelkers5568 The class works fine as-is, but the single level dip gives you so much that it is extremely difficult yo justify not taking it. Gaining proficiency in shields, plus the Shield spell, along with something like booming blade (especially since you're almost certain to take the War Caster feat) is a lot to leave on the table.
That said, Bard is an incredibly strong class on its own, so sure - you'll be a very strong character even without the dip.
Montys is so Canadian that even his Nerd Rage is short and polite, LOL.
"I would like to rage." intensifies
Oh god, is this another scam thing, god I hate these, I've seen these in a few areas, y'all are probably already aware, but just ignore these
@@GoblinLord "Dunno if anyone gives a s***" Hey guess what! They don't...
@@KatanaDen lol
I feel like if you look at their arguments in a different light it says something totally different. Their reasoning for putting valor bard lower (and I would guess swords as well) is that they are too specialized. However I would argue the opposite. These two subclasses add weapon/armor proficiencies to the class as additional tools to use that the other subclasses don't have. While the eloquence bard gets way better at using inspiration, I wouldn't say they have MORE versatility. They actually seem more specialized which I think is what makes them so strong. The only more versatile option they ranked high in my opinion was the lore bard because it can lean more into different types of spells.
I just thought it was interesting that depending on how you look at it, their argument looks totally different. I don't feel valor or swords bards are designed to ONLY use weapons, but rather that it is another tool they are given to use. But that's just my perspective.
I find myself agreeing at least in concept. Will be playing a valor bard soon though, and we’ll see if it holds up well.
This is exactly how I first saw the College of Swords. I thought it was a very interesting idea that makes the bard able to use weapons, and the Blade Flourish ability, makes them behave similarly to a Swashbuckler Rogue in my opinion. With the power of this College, you can become of temporary frontline if need be. You have Defensive Flourish to increase your AC, Slashing Flourish helps with damage, and Mobile Flourish can be used to push and annoy your target, forcing them to attack you. Especially once you reach 14th level and you can use a d6, instead of expending a Bardic Inspiration.
So in my opinion, College of Swords increases the capabilities of what a Bard can do, by making them flexible enough to get in and cover the job of a frontline character for a couple turns while they move around or recuperate.
@@spanishinquisition7623 It' can't not hold up well. Like they said, unless you just choose REALLY bad spells and use your inspiration dice really frivolously and badly, and/or roll shitty for your stats...you can't really NOT succeed as a bard. They are just strong options regardless
You get tons of skills, decent HP for a caster, light armor (not amazing but more than a wizard), and level 9 spells.
While I don't necessarily agree with them 100%, they are correct that bards are too strong not to succeed with regardless of your college.
@@shino4242 Having played a college of swords bard in my current campaign (unfortunately she died to a lich, fuck Power Word: Kill), I would give it a C ranking. Having to choose between using a blade flourish and giving inspiration is a tough decision, and you have to deal with it until level 14, but it is a matter of weighing your options and really depends on how the battle is going. I don't think it really takes away from the bard as to give it a D, but the fact that blade flourish uses your inspiration die makes it something I was personally was a bit reluctant to use, so I would put it on the C ranking
I think what Valor and Swords both offer more than anything else is a bit of durability. Being able to take medium armor usually is the difference of about 3 AC early on, and Swords Bard can do pretty solid damage and offer massive AC boons through their inspiration use. That in itself is something few of the other subclasses come close to offering, all while offering the boons of a full caster which compensates for the fact that they won't be as good.
Of course, the other types of bard get boons in other areas, more prof, more, spells known, strong boons e.t.c. Just I feel these classes offer some sticking power that a full caster would traditionally lack in exchange for lacking it's extra abilities.
After 11th level, balance typically goes out of the window anyway, so being lacking compared to a dedicated expanded skillset bard in later levels isn't really an issue.
The thing about College of Whispers is sure, you can look like someone else using Disguise Self, but that means you'd have to have learned that spell, then use a spell slot to cast it. Mantle of Whispers does not require you to have learned the spell, nor expend a spell slot. So I guess it depends on what resources the player is looking for, because yeah, requiring the person to die in order for you to impersonate them isn't great. We had a Whispers bard in our campaign, and he used this feature twice. It went well both times, but in a year and a half of playing, two uses isn't much.
It’s good, but only in a heist. But their other abilities are still great - being able to unsettle somebody during a parley is great, and it’s worth considering that you can still get the ability off during combat if you start talking before the battle begins. And their Psychic Blades is way better than Sword Bards damage output wise and allows you to supplement a party who lacks a Rogue - and Psychic Damage is often something creators aren’t resistant or immune to.
@@TheHandgunhero more than just heists. assassinations can be made much easier when the escape plan is walk out as a guard you took the form of earlier and disguise self can easily be seen through as its dc to see through it is your spell save dc vs the enemy Perception and early on thats almost easy enough that an average guard does that passively and information gathering can easily be hand waved away by the mantle of whispers by walking in as a guard looking around for an hour and leaving. another thing i personal use my psychic blades for (which is not melee only as was stated it only requires a weapon attack such as a bow) is like a better smite since they come back way faster and cap out way stronger, but have the exact same rules of use (except the smite can't be used at range)
Chris Stinson I feel the Whispers Bard literally takes what is amazing about Rogues and Bards (both of which are candidates for perhaps the strongest classes in the game overall) and mixes them together for nothing lost.
I have a shadow sorcerer 3/whispers bard X/rogue 1 that uses upleveled shadow blade and psychic blades to do rogue level damage. She's a changeling, and in addition to her combat prowess, she has 4 expertise skills, and a bunch of utility spells.
For my build, no other type of bard would do the job.
Is a spell worth more than an entire subclass?
As someone who is playing a swords bard in a campaign right now I feel you left out a crucial aspect that is granted to them which is the ability to use any simple or martial melee weapon that your character is proficient with as a spellcasting focus for all our bard spells. Which could allow a bard to wield a shield and a sword if they picked dueling and later gained proficiency with shields or duel wield scimitars or rapiers and still cast our spells without the use of any instruments due to us effectively becoming dancing bards.
Not only that but using your bardic inspirations to use a flourish doesn't have to be selfish as it can be used in a way to make us deal more damage with a strike while also making us harder to hit or cleaving damage to surrounding enemies or even repositioning an enemy 5+ feet away from us/the rest of the party and either move back in front of them as a reaction or stay back and force them to move back towards the party.
Not only all of those awesome things but at 14th level we can choose to keep our bardic inspirations and opt to use a D6 as our flourish dice instead.
I am currently playing a swords bard and I am actually playing it exactly how you described lol. I still assist my party with spells but when I really want to get down to it I have Defensive Duelist to help keep from getting crushed that stacks with Defensive Flourish and I also use mobile flourish to try and keep enemies off my party member's backs. I basically dance around the battlefield.
Agreed, i had a lot of fun playing my swords bard, and used his abilities all the time
Have to agree, strongly disagree with putting it all the way at a D.
Know what else offers "the ability to use any simple or martial melee weapon that your character is proficient with as a spellcasting focus for all our bard spells"? A Ruby of the War Mage. It does require attunement, but it's a _common_ magical item.
@@DurandalsFate the Bard's ability is totally reliable, while a magic item depends on your DM. Even it being a common magical item, some DM won't let you have it without some hard process/quest, while the subclass gives you this for free at level 3.
“Have you seen the Bard spell list!?”
Awesome. So much passion.
Less passion, more just irrational, emphatic hatred of the College of Whispers, that I can only attribute to having misread the features. Every feature they mentioned, Monty and Kelly both only gave a slimmed down version of the descriptions that absolutely failed to do them justice, for Whispers and Swords both. I can only hope they decided to make adjustments to their rankings in Part 2.
@@alexraynn2050 Can you please educate us on what the College of Whispers is all about?
I love my swords bard. Being a full caster gish lets me use 4th or 5th lvl spells for utility and not worry about using up my combat bombs
I am playing in a campaign with a 1 in fighter and 14 in swords bard i use a crossbow with crossbow expert and sharpshooter. For my level 10 magical secrets i took greater find steed and for level 14 i took simulacrum and tensers transformation. Unfortunately i have not used simulacrum yet but when you have tensers transformation on yourself and on your griffon it does a ton of damage and with simulacrum you can double that damage
@@GeneralYudai exactly u are MC. The ranking takes the subclass on its own.
kleine.blume he could do the exact same thing without multiclassing
Played a College of Lore Bard in my DM's last campaign. She has forever banned me from playing Bards in her future campaigns :)
Love it.
Oooohhhh what’d you do?
@@joeportelli5557 Oh the stories I could tell. Pretty sure it was the 5 natural 20's in a row inside a brothel coupled with the fact that I made her bbeg cry in the corner with existential dread every round during the last fight, effectively making him useless, that pushed it over the line.
Raving Nutter 5 Nat 20’s in row in a brothel, sounds like classic bard to me.
I assume because of the fear spell. Not sure why you would make permanent character choice limitations based on the outcome of a straightforward 3rd level control spell. I mean fuck if it’s going to nerf your bbeg fight just fudge the damn roll.
I think my DM would also like to ban me from using a Lore Bard ... Magical Secrets! I helped a rogue deal with the boss by himself while the other PCs dealt with the minions.
Honestly, I think the swords bard ranking is down to a fundamental misunderstanding of what the swords bard is designed to do.
Rather than being the “selfish” bard as it were, it’s helping its allies by being the target of aggression. It might rarely provide buffs or benefits to others, but it will regularly debuff enemies and force them to attack it.
It isn’t about taking away from what the base bard does. It’s about providing a completely different tool kit to expand the bards options. It’s a different kind of versatile to lore, and significantly more versatile than eloquence, which just doubles down on what the bard does well already.
Full Bard Party: Everyone uses a different instrument and subclass.
I want to play an all bard party so much! I talk about it all the time lol 😂😅
@@JesReally Assuming traditional rock 4-5some, lead guitar is basically required to be swords or valor bard
Jem and the holograms 😛
Isn't that just a band?
@@yokoferisship9445 that is the idea, yes
Looking at the community opinions on Swords and Whispers was so great, especially when Monty looked like he was going to pop a blood vessel on Whispers
Satyr Lore Bard with Animate Dead and Create Dead is aesthetic af.
Totally my current build
The blue pill bard??
@@cinnabarsteam4839 Lol. Meant to type "Create Undead."
Sean R. Whispers Bard smiles frighteningly.
"why are your zombies in a conga line?" "Well, I just cast Danse Macabre..."
Monty messed up on the Whispers. For one, psychic blades is "weapon attacks" not melee weapon attacks. So while concentration is up on a spell a ranged crossbow can put out big damage using this ability. And it operates like smite, you add the damage on hit so you never "waste" the inspiration if you miss the attack.
And mantle of whispers doesn't require the bard to kill the humanoid, only to be present nearby.
This can be used on party members when they die, henchmen, sometimes the BBEG. And its a short rest cooldown which means oftentimes it can be used twice in a day, sometimes three times.
Fantastic ability when you want to know the layout of the dungeon and dont want to take forever casting arcane eye to scout ahead.
The only downside of this ability is the 30 foot range.
Words of terror is ridiculously strong. Unlike some other charming spells, the target has no idea it happened if it failed. Again, short rest cooldown and no spell slot usage.
The 14th level ability isnt that great imo, and i would probably multiclass into a rogue or something after level 10 unless i really want wish or 8th level spells.
Fantastic class for utility.
Again though, if a bard, any bard, takes Disguise Self, Invisibility, and Suggestion (all amazing spells many bards will want anyways), don't they have all the capabilities they need for almost any infiltration? When a Bard grants Bardic Inspiration to the Gloomstalker Ranger Sharpshooter or the Great Weapon Master Zealot Barbarian, and that die turns the miss into a hit, aren't they effectively doing way more than extra 2d6 psychic damage? I see how these abilities are all fine and good, but it seems to me that the Bard already can do it already.
@@DungeonDudes use the dissonant whisper spell to make your target run away from you and deal 3d6 psychic damage, make an attack of oppurtunity which is still in your own turn so you can use the psychic blades feature. At low lvls this might be the most damage a player can deal in a single turn (lets say you are lvl 3. You can deal 3d6 psychic dmg from dissonant whispers, 2d6 psychic dmg from psychic blades and 1d8 piercing from a rapier) and that is without even using your bonus action so you can still support another party member.
Dungeon Dudes I would say that the difference is you don’t need to burn spell slots to use disguise self and detect thoughts. If you only have 1 major encounter per long rest than yeah that doesn’t matter, but if you are infiltrating an enemy encampment you may run into a patrol group, as long as you are within 30 feet of one of the enemies when they die you can capture their shadow. You don’t have to worry about spending time taking one alive and interrogating them or use any spell slots to disguise yourself or turn invisible. So if your party needs to fight their way into the encampment after you’ve done recon you still have all of your spells and when you get this at 6 you only have 9 slots. Also instead of an investigation vs your spell DC which would be a max 16 if you rolled for stats and had 20 Cha at lvl 6, with mantle they make an insight check against a deception check +5 so if you did have that 20 Cha that’s a +13 or +16 if you took expertise which means that unless you crit fail your deception check it’s as good/better than disguise self. It is situational and the usefulness of extra insight from Mantle depends on the DM, but I definitely don’t think this class is a trap
Hear hear. Psychic Blades are like smites and boost the Bard’s damage output like no other Bard can do before magical secrets. They can even use Psychic Blades and BI on the same turn. It won’t complete with alpha damage dealers, but it’s not meant to. Hell, you may not even have an alpha striker in your party. It extends the Bard’s versatility in a way that the other subclasses don’t. Dungeon Dudes slept on this one.
@@DungeonDudes don't forget that mantle of whisper is not an illusion and therefore would not be dispelled by any anti illusion ward that "should" be present on any important place, like entering the throne room(or maybe even the fancier part of town).
I think that the sometimes large disparity in the communities voting and what the Dungeon Dudes picked is more a difference of opinion on what each person thinks that a bard should be doing or good at. The D.D. think that the best kind of bard remains versatile and a strong utility caster. In contrast to this some members of the community will fall more in love with the college of Swords, Valor, and Whispers because it is more interesting or powerful for their bard to fit a more niche role. Perhaps the College of lore in all it's strength comes across more bland than some of it's less versatile counterpart archetypes.
With respect, the lore had the biggest margin and both hosts agreed. I think everyone really liked the Lore bard irrespective of them likening more action oriented bards as well.
Blandness was not a factor in these rankings, only the mechanics, and I think this is what the community tends to forget. We saw this in the Barbarian ranking as well, with the iconic but mechanically awful Berserker getting high ranks from the community.
This is definitely a thing. All the people defending Swords and Whispers are just saying "I like this bard subclass because it makes my bard less bardy." and making unrealistic comparisons to fighters and rogues like their characters are somehow more unique and interesting than if they were to just play the fighter or rogue they should probably have played instead. The cope is real.
I really like the college of swords bard because my DM lets me use my bonus action as a cantrip spell. That plus the mark of Orien from Eberron means that there is a lot more stuff for bonus actions. I understand the dungeon Dudes opinion though.I was also a swashbuckler.
Here comes my love balad for the Collage of swords.
It's really not played like any other bard, it's a Palladin.
I think the class should get a little more love in the early levels, that's where he is really weak. But later, you are a front line fighter. You spend all low lvl spell slots casting healing word with your bonus action to heal yourself. With that healing, your HP equals that of any other frontliner. With the magical secrets, you get Summon Greater Steed. This is a real game changer. It's insanely strong! You ride a flying griphon, you cast Greater invisibility on yourself (and this also casts it on the steed). Now all attacks have disadvantage against you, and all your attacks have advantage! All while flying around. Bonus action healing word keeps both you and your steed healthy for any occasional hit that you do take.
I have played this, and not only was this the most fun I had in RP, it's mechanically also very strong!
college of swords, Daring swashbuckler type warrior with extra magic, for flavour. Imagine Jack Sparrow.....er CAPTAIN jack sparrow with magic!
I don't understand their D rank of college of swords. I went paladin 2 and the rest of the way with swords and they make and awesome tank. I took expertise with athletics and perception along with shield master for bashing. At higher level I used one of my spell secrets for Tensor's Transformation.
The college of swords is Decent, the agile flourish abilities are better than they give it credit for. but it Almost ignores the fact that bards are also arcane casters, the College of Valor takes this dual aspect into account. However if we add a couple of special flourish attacks the class may surprise them even more.
Arcane Flourish: using this flourish the College of Swords bard can cast spend a bardic inspiration die and cast a single 0-level spell through their weapon. the attack counts as magic and inflicts the spells damage in addition to the weapons damage. use the better of the bards Magic attack or melee attack modifiers (adding the weapons magical enhancement if it has one to the attack roll as normal), if successful the attack inflicts the weapons damage plus the spells damage. at 6th level you can cast up to second level spells and at 14th level up to your maximum spell level available.
Metamagic Flourish: The college of Swords bard learns to enhance their spellcasting through their swordplay. by spending a bardic inspiration the college of swords bard makes a normal attack this round but on the following round may cast a spell as if affected by a sorceror's Metamagic ability. any metamagic ability can be used as appropriate for the spell being cast. this is a powerful ability and can not be used again without a short or long rest to recharge the Bards magical energies, and after using this ability the bard suffers Disadvantage on rolls involving spell damage for 30 minutes unless they take a short rest before the end of that time as their magical energies have been strained and are unpredictable. (these limitations would balance this ability and are recommended they not be bypassed or removed in house rules!!)
Not sure what you would think of these but since you have used the class before what do you think of them since the base archetype forgets the bards are casters.
@@jennaherman3859
I really love the thought you have put into this! I especially love the first option. The second one is a bit iffy, so much can change during one round of combat, that making the desision to cast a spell on your NEXT turn, so much can be changed by then.
I used my Sword-Bard as a utility caster, using spells out of combat to fly, infiltrate, manouver and be amazing. But in combat, I was a fighter. Just melee combat, and using my bonus action and 1 and 2nd lvl spells slots pretty much only for healing word, to keep mostly myself (and sometimes allies) healthy.
This worked amazing.
If you wanna spar more about this topic, I'm up for it!
@@VTSfilms I only said the NEXT round to balance it, the Sorceror only initially gets 2 metamagic choices when the option becomes available, this flourish make ALL available on the next round and the bard can choose from any of them. I took inspiration for it from the Wild Magic of 3 and 3.5 versions but the ability to apply Empower to maybe a healing bard spell would be game changing. I mean you COULD say that flourish does not become available till 6th level or later obviously to help balance it out if you don't like the NEXT round option. and i was literally creating these variant Flourishes on the spot without playtesting, so such a potent ability as giving one class unlimted access to another classes LIMITED option felt like it needed SEVERE drawbacks to balance it. Remember sorcerors only get to pick 2 Metamagic powers they can apply at anytime. this flourish burns a bardic Inspiration to allow the Sword bard unfettered access to that ability on his next turn, and yes 1 round of combat can change a lot of things, maybe the bard needs to use an area heal spell so he empowers a healing word on the next round instead of using his reaching spell to blast a target just out of range. with a bard/Cleric healing the party in a single round if they happen to have had some bad luck with rolls or the GM got really lucky. the drawback's of waiting till his next action and the use restriction keep this powerful ability from being abused. I mean if you can use this flourish too often without restriction he basically becomes the best version of a sorceror. so heavy drawbacks would be needed in case someone else was playing a sorceror, no need to breed jealousy between player choices.
it's still an S tier ability even with the restrictions, and the other one is easily A tier and both available at 3rd level? that just makes the sword bard OP and above S tier. Could always just let it go off at the start of the next round before anyone else can act. see if your GM will let you try them out and play test them. just Remember this version is more like an arcane Swashbuckler with these additions (though the second flourish has a bit of wild magic feel to it with its restrictions, which is what i was going for). If you feel it's too restrictive the way presented try it in the same round a few times and see how it works for you
I think one of the best aspects of College of Lore’s additional magical secrets is the spells you can take from half casters. There are some unique spells that Paladin’s and Rangers have that seem quite powerful - since for them they get them at much later levels. A bard can just sneak that in 10 levels early and call it a day.
a personal favorite is destructive wave, which is meant to be the capstone paladin spell but instead allows you're level 10 ass to yoink in 10D6 damage to anyone within 30 feet of you *and* knock them prone
Well good for you, you can get that at Level 6 instead!
@@Aaa-bi8lyyou can't, it's 5th level, and bard gets a 5th level slot at level 9
College of Glamour has been incredibly fun and i can't recommend it enough. Currently playing it as Bardlock in Curse of Strahd and i am using all class abilities constantly. Enthralling Performance can be disguised as asking someone to review a songtext you wrote ("Can you check for me if this would be appropriate to sing here?") or asking a prison guard what their favorite melody is and humming it.
Mantle of Majesty is unmatched in battlefield control and mitigating damage but it truly becomes insane when your party is on the run. Free disengage + dash as reaction always will give you 50% more movement, immunity against sentinel or grapple attacks of opportunity and the potential to free up an action to cast spells or fire arrows without letting the enemy catch up.
Besides what you said, the Glamour Bard is excellent at shaping the battlefield, getting fellow players into position, out of trouble or clearing the way for spells like Hypnotic Pattern. For a class with amazing tricks at combat and social encounters, it deserves a solid A ranking
Mantle of Majesty is The unearthly beauty and command every round. But I agree. Mantle of Inspiration is also very good at helping to keep the Bard from getting tied down as well as rest of party where they need to be. And the temp hp are also a lot of damage mitigation really (at lower levels anyways )🥰. Enthralling performance and d
is great for getting info when you blow into town as well as drawing eyes to the Bard for further interactions. Quite often tell the enthralled to make sure they “tell their friends” of how good the performance was and/or how good the party is ( for hiring purposes)😎
Yes! Was gonna come here to say that The Curse of Strahd is the perfect time to play a College of Glamour Bard. I’m teamed up with a Rouge and the amount of shit we’ve pulled off together has been amazing.
@@Lordofthepringless We're still playing (had a longer hiatus) and Glamour is still fantastic. Still only Bard 5/Warlock 1 (Archfey) atm but next 2 levels are going to be incredible; it's been so much fun to level with this character.
MANTLE OF WHISPERS
At 6th level, you gain the ability to adopt a humanoid's persona. When a humanoid dies within 30 feet of you,
you can magically capture its shadow using your reaction. You retain this shadow until you use it or you finish a long rest. ** you don't have to be the one who kill's it. **
Monty said that. You have to be present when they die. (Autocorrect screwed an earlier attempt to reply, if that’s still up for some reason.)
But you still need him dead. And it expires quite quickly.
What Martyn said was that other bards could do the same with spells without a corpse to tell everyone you was there when it's found.
And even if there's no corpses, the person still going to be missed what will make you the main suspect when they discover what you did.
@@albertonishiyama1980 yes it's only last 1H whoever, you gain access to that creature memories for 1 hour if you were interested in interrogating any given enemy in the battle and they got killed by whatsoever reason you can gain info by using this ability, yes is not all information but it may be a very useful one. I just pointed out that the guy complaining about the ability got the text a bit of that is all.
@@albertonishiyama1980 Hmmmm... Let me think
Two spell slots (of which you only have 10 at this level, and every slot counts), one of which requires my concentration (detect thoughts), and both last for very short amounts of time (Detect thoughts lasts for one minute, disguise self lasts for 1 hour). In order to use this effectively to bluff my way through a stronghold I need to spam detect thoughts to see how people want me to react, burning up my level 2+ spell slots (of which there are only 6) and if they make an investigation check against your spell DC (Max 17 having rolled max charisma and somehow got a tome of leadership and influence to bump your charisma to 22) you're fucked.
OR
My reaction, and in order to see past my disguise they need to make an insight check versus my deception check +5, meaning with expertise and again somehow 22 charisma the minimum I can roll is 18 (Because natural ones only affect attack rolls and death saving throws in DnD 5e) which is higher than the max disguise self DC. On top of all that, I get the information I need to pass myself off as this person for the full hour, not 6 minutes maximum using all my spellslots and my concentration for that time.
The answer to what Mantle of Whispers gives you the other bard subclasses don't: Resources. It saves you a shitton of resources you'd otherwise have to sink into pulling the exact same thing off. And you can do it per *short rest*, allowing you to do it multiple times a day. Doing it through spells, you'll be lucky to pull it off just the once.
@@The_Crimson_Witch yeah, and after that you have the same amount of dead bodies / missing persons as you shapeshift. And this pretty obvious trail leading directly to you and your party that anyone can find.
If there is divination spells in the target's hand (either being a spellcaster, having caster minions or simply convincing some Justice Clerics you're a criminal) its as easy as asking "who killed these guys?" or something in those lines.
If magic is not a option, it stills pretty easy to figure out what happened just by some investigation / diplomacy (as the dead Gather Information skill) checks. You're leting a trail of blood wherever you use this skill to be seem by any amount of testimonys.
Lore bard for the clutch counterspell adding their bardic inspiration in the roll.
now i know this is super late into the game but may i introduce you to glibness + counterspell
@@tep1955 it's one of those things that DM will hate you for but you won't care.
Agree completely
I think you guys missed the boat on College of Swords. Spellcasting focus on your weapon + battlemaster-esque attacks that don't use up your bardic inspiration or any resource (lvl 14) + two attacks with weapons that can be powered up by a paladin smite spell taken from their spell list (earlier or higher lvl than a paladin can cast), + the regular bardic inspiration die + skills. All together these give you the ability to dish out some strong damage, have some battle field control and mobility with flourishes, and still be an extremely strong caster and skill proficient character that can both complement your party members and contribute on your own.
I had a glamour bard that basically used Enthralling Performance any chance she got. She didn't need a stage or a reason. Just literally, the moment you get her to talk for a little while she would start rhyming/rapping and enthrall those who listen to her if she could do it for a minute. It didn't work all the time, but it was fantastic when it did. As long as there are NPCs to talk to (or even the party members themselves) you have the chance to do enthralling performance. If you're in a campaign with 0 NPCs to talk to then it's probably useless. But I'm sure even with some creativity you can get a bunch of enemies in a room to listen to a performance.
Mantle of Inspiration is battle-breaking. The ability to move around at most 5 party members on the BARD'S TURN and completely restructure the battlefield to your advantage can completely break an encounter. The wizard moves out of harms way, the paladin moves in. The rogue gets into a better position, etc. It's incredible. Enemies sniping us from afar? You'd think we'd have trouble moving up to to them--except I just expend 1 bardic inspiration die and everyone moves up an extra 30 or so feet. Unless they're a monk. Can you say greased lightning? People really underestimate the ability to rearrange the battlefield--and you can do this with bardic inspiration. Which gets recharged on a short rest at level 5.
Honestly deserves at least an A for this ability alone. Even if you never use Enthralling Presence in a campaign, Mantle of Inspiration on its own makes this an incredibly powerful subclass.
Mantle of Majesty takes concentration, sure. But it can absolutely dominate a battle where enemies can understand you, and you just don't have to use spell slots to control the battlefield. Situational? Sure--but the amount of times it can come up is more than you think. Hell, who said you had to use it only in battle, either?
Unbreakable Majesty is an ability that isn't save or suck. It's suck or suck. If they fail the save against you, they can't hit you. If they make the save, they have disadvantage on any spell I cast on my next turn. Glamour is so powerful in every situation.
NPC: And who are you?
Bard: Let me tell you a story ...
NPC: Did we just become best friend?
I still love college of swords - not because it's a great subclass but because it allows casting spells with a sword and grappling people. It's a really nice and unique build that works amazingly well - imho even better than valor bard.
I agree. Swords >> Valor
We’ve heard this a lot. So maybe we just need to play more swords bards, I mean, at the end of the day, all the subclasses are really fun and great.
Doesn't the warcaster feat let you cast spells with weapons? Or am I thinking of something else? 🤔
@@GoodOldGamer It does indeed, but this saves you a feat.
@@GoodOldGamer warcaster lets you use a weapon for the somatic component of a spell.
For verbal components, a weapon is obviously not a hinderance.
For material components, you still need a focus (improved pact weapon, holy symbol etc)
if you have such a focus, you don't need waraster to cast spells with somatic components, as your focus works like a free hand for that purpose
Technically, you can also get around warcaster, by dropping your weapon with your free object interaction, and then casting the spell
(works perfectly fine, but is a bit strange visually)
I’m seeing a lot of people mention swords and whispers as being like go to class for multiclass options and why that sets them higher, but that isn’t part of the grading. It’s the core class on its own with how it stacks on the bard class alone. And I think that’s what people are missing
Ignoring multiclassing is ignoring how most people play d&d, especially people who take it seriously enough to subscribe to Dungeon Dudes
@@EAtheatreguy The thing is that this is a rating of just the subclasses on their own. It's unfeasible to consider every single potential multiclass in the game for this, just like it's not reasonable to consider things like RP.
Then if it's about the class alone they fucked up. Bard are spell casters. Talk about arcane focuses. Swords college bards are the only ones that let you use your sword as a focus.
@@franciscoaguirre96 We are not ignoring multiclassing, it's just not a primary metric for us. When there's only one specific build that salvages a subclass, it's hard for us to discuss that in detail without going down a tangent.
brithanoakleaf I’m playing a Sword Bard right now, I like that it gives options to do either support and spellcasting or melee combat. It does suck that you have to choose one or the other and your resources compete. My bard is a punk rock type so being selfish with my inspiration isn’t so much a problem for me in a role playing sense.
Monty wearing the Owlbear shirt is going to attract his Bear-lovin fans.
Yes!
Not incorrect
HOOT GROWL!
damn. I thought it was Growl Hoot.
Hoot Growl!
My favorite Bard I've played was College of Swords. I was making up as the melee DPS with our tanky/heavy hitting paladin and our two casters. I was also our only true healer (though the paladin took a level in cleric and took some of the immediate stress off me), and it was great! I could solo the big melee boss while keeping casters in check and the rest of the party clears the rest of the room, and then I could step back and play support.
It's really versatile and I still RPd the hell out of story performances in taverns and disguised infiltrations. It was a great campaign.
One very important point that was missed with the College of Glamour is that it makes up for the flaw in the standard charm spells in that the targets do not know they were a target when the effect is over. Unlike the Whispers abilities that can be replicated with spells, Glamour makes you much more effective at Charm effects. It should also be noted that performances are not just musical performances that need to be set up but can include oration, so you could technically use these abilities in conversations, so while it's not S tier like Eloquence or Lore, I feel an A tier is justified
I think you misread the Whispers features, which may have affected your ranking.
First, with Psychic Blades, it's any weapon, not just melee, and up to 15th level it keeps rough pace with Sneak Attack, but doesn't have any prerequisites. It's a pretty solid burst of damage, any time you need it.
Next on Words Of Terror, there is the useful feature that the target doesn't know that you've done anything, and the Frightened condition can be towards anyone.
With Mantle of Whispers, you dont have to kill the target, merely being within 30ft. So, you grab the guard's identity, when the Rogue kills him. The identity is far more complete than Disguise Self would allow, including any casual knowledge that the target would have.
Having played a Whispers up to 9, I can say that its features are generally useful in enough situations that I never missed my Lore Bard. Whispers delivered continual utility, right when and where the Bard was needed to deliver.
This video showed their bias to their level of campaign complexity they're comfortable with and past experience. They need a boot camp in military strategy and time crunch situations.
I played a NE Whispers bard through level 12 who was undead (via Negative Energy Plane stuff), and needed Mantle of Whispers to hide their undeath in polite society. It proved to be quite a flexible and unique build, and considering how bland 5e's classes tend to be, that made it a good choice in my book.
i feel like it is too situational, and psychic blade is really the only "generalist" feature, while not being great. it is true that is a sneak attack without requirement, but in reality it cost a precious Inspiration dice, and do not scale enough to justify the cost at high level. a rogue can do that damage each turn for free. this is still super better than this even with requirements.... and plus, you do not gain psychich blade at all! you are just adding a psychic smite to an attack...
the subclass is not trash and it is super cool in his flavour, but it's definitly weak compared to other subclass of bard and could use a little bit of fixing (like expending spell slots to do psychic blades scaling with spell slot in addition to what we already have, and a bit more proficiencies to help in social adventures (since is its clear intent)...and maybe the ability to have an actual psychic weapon to help in infiltration, like the psychic rogue from UA
@@davidvincent5701 We invite you to watch our campaigns, and assess their complexity for yourself. They are all here on UA-cam.
In them, you'll see how we've run a ton of exploration and infiltration scenarios where the players used disguises under time crunches (both mundane and magical) where is was simply untenable for the players to kill the person they wanted to impersonate -- because that person was an ally or someone they were trying to rescue. Alternatively, they needed to impersonate a person who simply wasn't present at the location at the time, or create a completely fabricated persona in order to evade recognition. Or take a situation in our recent Shadows of Drakkenheim campaign, where the players needed to impersonate an individual who had died a week prior.
I have to agree. I played as a Whisper Bard, and sewing seeds of paranoia in a waterdeep campaign (did dragonheist) was fun. Also, capturing a shadow of an enforcer from the Xanathar and having casual knowledge of things about the Xanthar's organization (or lack thereof) was fantastically useful. It also saved on having to cast spells so I can use those resources later whenever we were screwing up other checks... like failed fish hostage situations.
In my opinion the Valor Bard should never be played on the front line, that puts them at B or C level. But they can make an AMAZING, definitely A tier archer. Going all in for Swift Quiver from the Ranger spell list, with Sharpshooter means you can crank out 4 attacks with high damage. And you can boost party AC very high with Bardic Inspiration, and you can Counterspell and cast Hypnotic Pattern, and heal. If you want to play a gish character, to mean they are one of the best at both dealing damage and having versatile spell casting.
playing that right now! So much fun. Does take a while to get online but the look on your DM's face when you do 80 damage in a round is worth it.
So a valor bard is better than ranger. Oof. Another hit for ranger.
@@dragonhearthx8369 I believe that to be true. Ranger is an excellent concept for flavor and specific types of campaigns. But it's often a real chore to make overland wilderness travel compelling for more than a couple scenes/encounters. I've read a lot about making overland distance travel more interesting and compelling, but it mostly means having many, many scenarios prepped... which can mean choices lead to lots of different, unexpected things. But that doesn't necessarily mean fun. Wilderness travel IS A DIFFICULT SLOG. Even in games, it's still a slog.
The fact is-the big challenge of wilderness travel is that it is long, arduous and grueling. In fact, without lots of modern gear and prep and experience, surviving in true wilderness is one of the most deadly things for human beings in real life. None of that translates well to TTRPGs.
I have been toying with the idea of a Ranger focussed campaign. Where there is a hostile, uncharted wilderness and there's a series of bounty hunter and rescue based story threads that could help make Rangers shine. I mean, that's what rangers in the real world-past and present-do. But ultimately D&D feels most at home in location-based adventures. A dungeon, a city, a ruined temple, etc. Wilderness hexes just don't translate well in my head for D&D. Could such an adventure be difficult and challenging and complex? Sure. But ultimately I think D&D shines in specific locations populated by enemy and friendly NPCs and monsters, with specific lore and stories happening in "familiar" locations. Or at least locations that can eventually become familiar to the players.
I'm rambling. But I think a lot about Rangers as the flavor and concept is so strong to me. But in practice it's often a weaker fighter or a good archer with a few tacked on abilities. It's a real puzzle, because even if we've never struck out into wilderness ourselves... it's a relatable, scary idea. Making it into a compelling game experience is so elusive though.
That's a super neat idea! Thank you for sharing.
@@dragonhearthx8369 This is not all true. The build described above does not come online till 9th level when the average D and D campaign is wrapping up. If you want a sneaky archer that comes to very high effectiveness at 5th level... Then see Gill's Character in the Dungeons of Drakenhiem campaign, the Gloomstaker ranger is going to come online much much quicker than the that and be effective at level 3 and very effective at level 5. That is the sweet spot in my view for an average D and D campaign. Valor Bard is going to be a great Character just not the best Archer. All depends on what you want to play and your play style.
Great video, though I disagree with the rankings of Colleges of Swords and Valor for two reasons.
First, while the bard comes with tons of support power, it's fine if the character concept doesn’t center around “it’s all for you, my beloved party.”
Second, the objective of beefing up combat capability with these Colleges isn’t to get as good as a fighter/barbarian/paladin. It’s to get pretty good at something that happens a lot: Doing stuff in combat without using a spell slot. Another take on the bard is that they’re about versatility, and Sword and Valor expand useful choices in combat situations.
I've got to disagree heavily with the ranking of the swords bardespecially considering you didn't even take into account the fact that you eventually don't have to use your bardic inspiration at all to use your blade flourish abilities and can just roll a d6.
At FOURTEENTH LEVEL. How often have you gotten there?
"I will stubbornly concede... but I am not happy about that." My new favorite D&Ddudes line.
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Glamor bard's command for a minute for free and the ability for temp hp and to move has save my party's butt and has been so useful. It's at least a A rank :p
BubblingBrooke yeah the glamor bard in the party I dm for has used these abilities in life saving ways a bunch
Glamour bard has worked really well for me in general, only at lvl 3 at the moment but the temp hp has saved the party more than once, comes up in every single combat, sometimes several times. Even if we only count the temp hp it would give out 15-20 before lvl5 and that is very respectable defensive option to start the combat with, in addition to get the everyone to position. And about the Enthralling Performance, yes, it takes a bit of being creative to get it out and depends a lot about your gm and how potent he would play the effect as but for now it has turned enemy scouts and other problematic persons into helpful tour guides. Would zone of truth + torture get the same outcome most of the time, yes, but I still feel like it would be quite potent charm effect without target getting knowledge of it if you can pull it out.
Plus imagine a glamour bard who charmed a king through a one minute performance. You could have so many amazing things done for the party.
@@Crimtaku the command was was only reason our dwarf monk/barbarian was able to take down a frost giant all by himself.
@@BubblingBrooke yea, I can believe, spamming commands as bonus actions seems like really potent cc effect, not sure what would be the concentration spell that they would have instead? Hold person or haste maybe. Or polymorph, that one might be worth it. But really fighting dragon or something, commanding it to the ground every turn could just lock it down. And since it is small effect every turn legendary resists aren't that much of a thing...
Monty be like: "Why are you booing me? I'm right" lmao
I enjoyed seeing Kelly hold his opinion on the whispers bard, and have it supported by the community votes. I feel like Kelly usually concedes to Monty when they disagree.
Whats the alternative though? Just turn a quick well informed rundown on a subclass into a long debate. Kelly sees the bigger picture and just says fine we'll go with that, and then we move on. Ego can get in the way of a good thing
With a whispers bard you could kill a king turn into him after hiding the body and bestow the kingdom to yourself.
*Accidentally walks through an anti-magic field*
@@eggs8021 oh no
Honestly, the biggest problem with Whispers bard is that you get most of its tricks by taking the Dimir Spy background from the Ravnica book. Sure you might not be playing in Ravnica, but every campaign is gonna have thieves guilds, spy syndicates, or Harpers. The background fits all those just as well as it fits in Ravnica.
Im playing a whispers bard for more than a year now, the words of terror feature gets used almost every session. It has almost become standard practice to let me be alone with our capive to interogate it. And the political intriges are great. But it depends a lot on the campaign
But it really doesn't depend on campaign. Sure political intrigue is fun, but an ability that gives you a free Frighten condition is excellent. And a bard is the perfect class to take advantage of it. Words of Terror gets used basically every session at my table, as the bard trades monologues with the BBEG. It's a great ability and B tier class.
@@danmurray1996 you just need your party to leave you alone with the BBEG because as written it says you must speak ALONE with a humanoid for 1 minute.
@@jorgh5255 and the BBEG to not just Power Word Kill you in that 1min gap.
Combine it with the Message cantrip. Use the words through of terror through walls, etc.
@@albertonishiyama1980 it requires a play style with a lot of intrigue and planning. Which i enjoy, but you must have a dm and a party who are on board with that.
In my opinion, what makes the Sword Bard special is two key things. Firstly, if you make the right feat and/or multi-class selection, it can stand toe to toe with some of the other options that bond benefit as heavily from multi-class. A great example is taking an extra level of Fighter (or even BattleMaster 3 to get both maneuvers and flourishes).
However, needing to multi-class should not be the thing that makes Sword Bards good. I understand the argument that Bardic Inspiration and being the party face are often the reason that the Bard appeals to players, but I think it can often be a lot to manage depending on who you play with, nor feel underpowered (if not playing Eloquence of course).
What the Sword Bard can do well though, regardless of Bardic Inspiration, is be the party tank. In my current campaign (granted, I did multi-class into Hexblade Warlock and BattleMaster Fighter (long story) so maybe this is unique), I have a 19 AC, Blade Flourishes, and the Shield spell. Using the Maneuvers to punish any enemies that come near me, I can often take heat off the rest of my party. Even without the multi-class, with a few feats such as Magic Initiate and Marital Adept, and you can largely get the core of this build without Multi-classing.
Why this matters is it allows you to LEARN when to use the Bardic Inspiration to help your comrades, while giving you an option for a self-buff. This is especially important at higher levels of play, when the 14th level feature gives me a minimum of a d6 to add to AC on a hit per turn, meaning Bardic Inspirations become freed up.
Lastly, while my current campaign group doesn't ask for this, I have heard of groups that do ask the Bard to actually sing from time to time. If you are in one of these groups and don't want to sing, the flavor the College of Swords offers allows you to still play a Bard without causing any issues.
Is it the most powerful? No. Do I think it belongs in D Tier? No.I would probably say it sits somewhere around C or B, mainly because I don't think any of the Bard subclasses are bad enough that they take away from the Bard (even if some are obviously better). As for this one's particular niche, it allows you to dip your foot into bard in longer campaigns, and might actually be an solid pick for a player's first experience with Bards (or magic in general).
That said, this is all just my opinion from my own experiences with the sub-class.
First point, All bards express themselves in other ways. I have a valor bard in my current party that reads from the Edda (Norse mytholigy) to give inspiration. He's a viking.
Second, if you want an insane Sword build, use the secrets to pick up summon greater steed. It almost feels like Wizards missed this possibility, it's amazingly strong. Combined with greater invisibility, you are OP.
Preface: no hard feelings for the ratings, don’t take this (or probably the majority of comments) as hateful, because I and clearly many others love the content. That being said... The swords bard gives great self-buff options to a bard so that the class can lean into being more of a powerhouse itself instead of just a support. It’s like how certain divine domains let the cleric be more of a powerhouse - it gives versatility and lets you create your own feeling with the class instead of sticking to that same party role. Also, at 14th level you’re able to use defensive flourish every turn with your d6. Stack that with something like the defensive and you have a super powerful class. Run into combat duel wielding rapiers with the duel wielder feat, cast slow or something (gained through magical secrets) one turn and then once you reach the enemies start slashing. I don’t think the possibilities with swords should be overlooked. Though admittedly, the subclass does lean towards optional rules heavily, like feats and multiclassing, and waiting until lvl 14 for that eternal d6 is annoying, so I understand why it isn’t top tier, but I’d support the community in putting it in A tier
I agree, I played a swords bard who was self centered and arrogant(the group knew this from session zero, as to avoid hurt feelings about a lack of bardic insp handouts) and it turned into a powerful damage character with funny, self centered one liners. Good times!
To add to this, masters flourish isn't restricted to defensive. Plus, use magical secrets to take bless, and you're still loading the party down with buffs left and right, ongoing and to more than one member. I love the dungeon dudes, buuuut...I think this got a lot less love than it deserves.
I line up with the community on the swords Bard. I will say that they don't truly come online until after magical secrets and really take a step up with a single Hexblade level. The addition of the shield spell and shield proficiency gives you a lot more survivability for a melee character with a d8 hit die. You have a lot fewer uses for level 1 spells at higher levels and really can burn them on shield spells without feeling like you're missing out.
The mere fact that the power spike of the bard class is delayed to level 10 because of its subclass is disappointing. Other classes can be potent at level 7 sometimes at level 4, but waiting to level 10 and other classes can do much better than what you wanted to as a frontline caster. Clerics, Bladesingers and Druids will be way more useful than you, and in the end your build for swords bard will feel lackluster. I think the swords and whispers subclasses are for multiclassing similar to warlock class
Also guys magical secrets gets smite spells from the paladin getting you spells like banishing smite earlier than intended.
Im loving these in depth ranking vids. Good insight and gives more to look at when picking subclasses.
Our parties bard needs to watch this, he is a college of lore who plays like he's a barbarian. Used bardic inspiration maybe 3 times total.
I played a Swords Bard in a sea-based Pirate campaign. The mobile blade flourish meant I could huck a dagger at any enemy and probably knock over the side of the ship. I was also able to mix up using my rapier and spells, using something like faerie fire before battle, then attacking for 3d8+10 damage per turn, being a dodge tank, and healing an ally with a bonus action. It meant I could get in front of my allies and draw all attention. I know this is very specific to my campaign with the whole incapacitating someone by throwing them off a ship, but felt I should give the Swords Bard some love 💓
"we will be looking at community ratings and take them into consideration!" *community wildly disagrees* "Uhhh, yeah no we're right" xD jk, love the vid and i can totally see why yall dislike the swords bard. i personally think it's a fantastic option for a gish character, especially since you eventually get to choose spells to enhance your fighting from any class (now the cleric no longer needs to concentrate on holy weapon!)
EDIT: Also, the swords bard can just as much pick up a bow or crossbow, since the bard already gets simple weapons and hand crossbows. none of its abilities are limited to melee combat, except for its fighting styles.
Despite the name, the swords bard is a much better tank than dps fighter
@@Neutral_Tired totally. played with a palabard a while ago who constantly had an AC of ~26
Something else to add, there is always the possibility of your allies not using the inspiration you give them. In that case, I look at the collage of swords as the "Fine, I'll do it myself" Bard.
We want to hear people's opinions because the question of "Why did people rank this so highly? Are we missing something?" is thought provoking and prompts us to self-examine our own opinions. In this case, we didn't agree with some of the results, but we present the poll results to spark conversation and debate.
Lars Ahrens I played a palabard as well and had a blast. I started with paladin for two levels to get heavy armor, defense fighting style, and smite then went bard. I played him as a spell casting variant of a battle master. I even picked up booming blade with magic initiate. I think where swords really gets the edge over valor as a frontline combatant is at higher levels once master’s flourish comes online.
College of swords fighting style choices give bonuses to melee fighting, but...
the blade flourish feature, and all of its options, can be used with ranged weapon attacks. I think you guys missed out on that part of this bard subclasses versatility. They are all indeed “selfish” options, but they come from a short rest depended resource and can be rationed if needed. Especially since their use is limited to one time on your turn.
Defensive flourish is an option that roughly emulates the shield spell, but doesn’t require a reaction or a spell slot to use. It can’t be counterspelled either. Usable with any ranged weapon
Slashing flourish, though less impactful, can be useful when chip damage is needed to potentially take out a “bloodied” creature who has little hitpoints left. Usable with any ranged weapon.
Mobile flourish is a way to do a bit of extra chip damage while also moving a creature where you want them. Your caster friend/party will very much appreciate your inspiration use the first time you fling an adversary through a wall of fire or some other AOE. The option to use your reaction for movement is a nice benefit, but doesn’t have to be used if you don’t want to. Again, usable with any ranged weapon.
All that being said, I agree that this is definitely the weakest bard class. But I don’t think it’s quite a “D” tier subclass. It is basically the only bard that has at will damage to contribute, especially at lower levels when a bard doesn’t have the spell slots to cast all day.
It can also use a melee weapon as a casting focus, which most other classes can’t do.
Not only do lower level bards not have a lot of spell slots available, but low level bards also can't do much to contribute to damage with their spells either. So having a built in "smite" that comes back on short rests (post 5) is a pretty big boon if the team needs a little more oomph.
I love College of Swords, I play two College of Swords bards for a few sessions now (both level 5 but they started at level 4/5) and I'm only just starting to discover what I can really do with it. I used to mostly use defense flourish and cast some Heat Metal or Cloud of Daggers in between. Now I talked with my DMs about revising my spell list and added more support spells. I casted cloud of daggers and used mobile flourish to push my opponent back into the cloud while dealing damage simultaneously and healed myself or others (depending on my current hitpoints left) with Healing Word without loosing my action. I love that I can use my weapon as a spellcasting focus and it really gives me the option to use both spells and melee attacks and combine them for maximum damage and maximum survivability. It really only adds more versatility for me like I can do everything with my bard and I love it.
I really appreciate the editing to make the conversation very slimmed down and informative!
What I like about the College of Swords Bard is that I feel it enhances a Bard's already incredible flexibility. If the Bard had any weaknesses (yes that's a big if) they would be pure combat ability and they can't use their inspiration dice on themselves. Since it fixes both of those, I think a College of Swords Bard is one of the most independently capable subclasses in the game, in addition to still being incredibly strong in a group. I think where you guys are getting stuck on it is that you still want to force it into a traditional Bard role, but this subclass very much changes the character's role. You're adding a bit of fighter without giving up any of your spellcasting advancement.
On a related note, I created a Sky Pirate subclass meant for Eberron by basically taking the College of Swords Bard and swapping out the armor proficiency and duel wielding style for firearms and archery style.
@@logangeorge8960 hard disagree. Lore can only boost their own ability checks - attacks and saving throws aren't boosted by Peerless Skill. The main reasons swords doesn't get the proficiencies Valor does are:
A) defensive flourish replaces the need for a Shield. Heck if you MC into hexblade and pick up the shield spell, you become one of the highest ac tanks in game (you can achieve a slightly lower AC by just getting Shield via spell secrets)
B) Swords is a Dex based melee sub class. Valor doesn't have to be either of those two and is better served not being on the front lines at all (which ironically makes Lore a better choice in that niche!). This is what dictates the additional weapon proficiencies for both. It also falls into different tropes. Swords plays very much like a dervish fighter, dancing around the battle field in a whirlwind of blades (dervishes used curved blades - aka scimitars, hence the proficiency). Valor plays towards a skald fantasy, so a different type of combatant altogether.
You say Swords is a mutated child of Valor and Lore - I say it's more of a hybrid between the Battlemaster fighter and Bladesinger wizard, giving you the gist of what those two classes offer, without having to MC.
@@logangeorge8960 you're objectively wrong about the mechanics of lore bard so nice try but the computer says no.
@@logangeorge8960 Alright kid
@@haerdalis84 Not really a comment on the OP, but I would say that Defensive Flourish is a poor replacement for a shield because it is hit dependent and very limited use, versus a static bonus. Also, the strength of the Valor Bard when compared to the other two is the ability to switch between melee and ranged as needed. There's nothing inherently pushing the VB to be either, which allows them to take advantage of both modes.
I do agree though that the Swords Bard is a DEX based melee subclass. Meaning, its fighting stat should be prioritized for maximum effect. Keep the spells for allies and self, instead of debuffing the enemy. It's just played in a different way. (Is effective in its own right)
@@jagdhillon757 limited use until level 14 sure but shield is also limited in use. As for hit dependency - swords bards can attack 2-3 times per turn. Missing all 3 is pretty unlucky if you have decent Dexterity.
Valor bards can take paladin spells as their magical secrets, and sooner in a lot of scenarios. Just something to think about if you're interested in that
I would point out that College of Whispers basically gives a melee Sneak Attack that is just vastly superior (better damage type, no need for advantage, no finesse requirement). College of Whispers could be a great multiclass Bard for a Fighter who doesn't want to fall behind in dmg output.
Hey guys, great show! You obviously know your stuff. I think a really good series now that you've covered so many different classes and subclasses would be a comparison of the various tiers. For example compare all of the different a tiers or compare all the different S tiers and rank those against each other, cross class. That would be an interesting exercise. It would be especially interesting if by comparing the Bs versus the Bs that you end up bumping a subclass up or down from its original ranking. It would also give you a chance to finally crown the s King and the d fool.
I love using enthralling performance, and try to use it as often as possible, usually once a long rest.
It can really give a whole new dimension to social interactions. If you can get away with playing music during an encounter with a factions’ leader it can go a long way towards securing alliances or avoiding combat. It only lasts for an hour, but they don’t know you charmed them.
I once used this ability to con a guy into signing over his castle 😁
It’s odd that despite all their talk of the bard’s versatility, they have a very narrow vision of what the class can be.
You wouldn’t call a fighter selfish for using their superiority die to boost their damage. And thankfully we’ve moved away from expecting clerics to spend all their spell slots on healing others so they can do cool things too. But for some reason every bard still has to be all support and social interaction in their eyes.
Yeah swords bard being D tier was a huge miss. Some people want to be a martial class with a lot of tricks up their sleeve and the SB has that in spades
It’s amazing how entitled long term d&d players feel to bardic inspiration given how frequently they waste it.
My twilight cleric is very heavy on combat and she loves items to use in combat, so I agree, the same way clerics shouldn't only be viewed as healers, bards aren't just support. My bard is a "looking out for herself first"-kind of girl 😅
Thank you I totally agree here also I imagine most bards being selfish and narcissistic anyway and the swords bard plays right into that role play wise
Talking about the whispers bard.
There is a valid notion on calling it overspecialized and niche. But, what it does it does incredibly well, and the situations in which this happens are, from my experience in two entirely different campaigns, only as far inbetween as you make them.
I have to say, having played a whispers bard, that they have the abilities to be rogues with full spellcasting. Truly, not even giving up any of the rogue's features. You just make up for them with spells and then some.
I would like to give some arguments for the B tier, as an incredibly effective bardic subclass, that fills a more niche role within a party. The damage output from the psychic blades is nothing to be scoffed at in the slightest. And bards are, in toe with rogues, the very best class to set up a surprise round of combat for themselves and their party. No other bard will do that same damage on a surprise turn of combat, whether you're fighting monsters or ambushing an intelligent NPC. And all that from a safe distance, using almost no resources. Which is what your B tier stands for, right?
And people tend to forget that Animate Objects, starting at lvl 9, is 65 damage (avg., before crits and AC) for each and every turn, just requiring a single action at the start of combat. Spiritual Weapon is less meaningful but also a bit of a boost from lvl 10 onwards. So you have this regular bard damage plus rogue damage.
Until then, you can give yourself advantage with Faerie Fire or Greater Invisibility.
So, what I’m hearing is the college of eloquence is broken as shit
About as broken as can be lol
Yeah, how it became official in its current version is beyond me. It is way overtuned
@@piedpiper1185 It's because it's supposed to be broken. It was designed to work in the setting "Mythic Oddesy of Theros", which is based on varies myths like Hercules. The setting operates under the assumption the players will be OP
So the lesson here is: don't allow this subclass outside of Theros or other similar settings. Like Warforged, it is a setting specific character option. It's not like the subclasses presented in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, it is only supposed to be used in the setting book it appears in.
PiedPiper11 It’s a shame that the Paladin subclass in that book got nerfed so hard.
@@The_Crimson_Witch I looked at the other subclass from that book though, the Oath of Glory paladin, and it doesn't seem OP to me in the slightest. It feels *solid* - the spells are good, the features are cool, the capstone is very powerful (and actually reusable!) - but it's nowhere near the freight train of unstoppable bulshit that the Eloquence bard seems to be
Curious how you would rank the College of Creation now that Tasha's is out..
I think they both were a lot more stubborn and self absorbed in their rankings this time around, so I'd hope that they just remake this video specifically again now that it's out.
For me, Creation Bard is easily the best there's ever been, and I'd even say my new favorite subclass in the game.
One of the subclass's main features is adding an always useful bonus to inspirations and the other is gaining a combat pet that can benefit from inspirations. Both of these are almost universally useful. I guess that they'd rate it A or S tier. It would be noted that even if it breaks into S tier, it's still below the Eloquence bard.
College of Swords is a lot more dangerous than you give it credit for. You need to look at it like a spellsword. I took 3 levels as Eldritch Knight and 2 levels as Paladin, and absolutely destroyed a Pit Fiend in single combat. My Bardic Secrets are Holy Weapon, Destructive Wave, Tenser’s Transformation, and Prismatic Spray. Variant human, Defensive Duelist.
I feel many players just miss opportunities for using glamour bard. When you keep watch at night, play a song on your flute, if you get attacked, they have most certainly have been listening to you for at least a minute. Going in the magic item shop? Dance and hum while you look around...charmed shop keeper discounts. Need some compliments from your party? Song of rest wisdom save. Performing for a minute is easier to work into encounters than you might think.
I can't wait for your Warlock examination! I am in love with the flavor of the Pact of the Undying, but... those mechanics. looking forward to your take to help me and my dm maybe improve them a bit.
College of valor is not a melee class, or an archer class, it is a spellcaster that has great AC for that incoming arrow, or that slippy opponent that snuck by the tank.
The level 14 ability allows you to add a slight amount of damage output, but it is not going to be great. Half the value of this subclass is just the proficiencies in armor and shields.
Essentially, you play this like any other bard, but you might not have to pick up mirror images or some other defensive spell, instead you can use your slots and spells known on other stuff.
When Kelly says 'you will look at the other spellcasters and say I'm a spellcaster too, and they will say, no you are not' He is wrong. The sorcerer will cry when you cast wall of force, and the wizard will cry when you cast revivify. Up until 10th level where you get these awesome spells, you are still casting things like Hypnotic pattern, and not breaking concentration at the first sign of an archer, because a lot of those arrows will miss.
Came here to say this, and saw someone already said it well. Its easy to be like “lore bards are great at being casters” until you realize that dropping that haste spell, hypnotic pattern, or polymorph because you had shit ac and got wtecked limits you. Honestly just having 19 ac without trying hard or losing levels of casting by multiclassing is practically enough to make this good; using extra attack as something to be better than cantrips when you dont have critical spells to cast is great as well.
Honestly i love this channel and like the dungeons of drakkenheim game, but i get the sense that thsy dont really play healer/support/flex classes and are missing some of the practicalities on this class. Im sure theyll be great at breakdowns for fihters, barbarians, archer byulds etc though...
@@parabostonian2267 If I am playing a lore bard, medium armored is a feat that is pretty high on my list of picks. Because exactly like you say, high AC helps you keep those spells going.
@@peterrasmussen4428 @Para Bostonian IMO, you guys have stated the key point: The Valor Bard fills in the Bard class's inherent deficiencies while taking nothing away from its primary spellcasting ability. Defense and At-will damage are here. Burst spell damage is missing, sure, but that's the purview of the Lore Bard. The trap with Valor is in thinking that their baseline martial class abilities pushes you into a martial build: No, you are still a primary spell caster with access to all of the Bard spell list.
What about Multiclassing the College of Whispers?
I could imagine a Rogue and a College of Whispers Bard could be very effective, as an Assasin.
One of my favorite things to do as a College of Glamour Bard was use Mantle of Inspiration in combination with my Alert feat. It turned what's usually a strong defensive ability into a sweet battle opener. Helped my party members gain a favorable position, and give them a small health buff, at the very start of many battles.
Anyone else think the Cleric Subclass Tier Ranking video's gonna be an hour long? Should still be pretty cool to watch though
We decided to split it into two parts!
@@DungeonDudes Grave domain is better than life domain at healing. Until level 17, but that doesn't really count.
We all know the answer for ULTRA MEGA SUPER UNBELIEVEBLY GODLY LIKE LEVEL SSS...Sword and Shield
This is D&D not Monster Hunter. Love the enthusiasm though.
@@calebelliott2629
That's pretty bold for some in fireball distance
I recently challenged myself (well, my friend challenged me) to make characters for races and classes I don't like, and bard was one of them. I gravitated towards eloquence to go for a heavy RP character instead of my usual melee battering ram style. I'm glad the dudes also think it's S tier.
However, I've seen someone play a fantastic whispers bard and I cannot agree with those C and D tier choices for it, in my mind it's A tier.
I love how triggered Monty is about the Whispers Bard.
I literally just saw this comment 30secs before it happened
It’s such a god concept but the actual things kinda suck. I actually had a charlatan bard who story wise was perfect for it, but went with glamour instead
When all else fails: HOMEBREW!
@@nathangifford897 yeah allow it to be something like "You may spend one (maybe 10) minutes observing a humanoid..." Or something like that IDK I'm just spitballing
I love how you are unable to distinguish conversation from being triggered. You must be a blast at parties.
Giving a College of Swords Bard a D Tier because it is not designed to be a support is the same as giving an Oath of Redemption Paladin a D Tier because it is not designed to Smite enemies.
wolfentheking give it a few weeks, I’m 90% certain we’re going to see that
Bottom line: Bard is the best class in 5e.
It's good at everything and can do everything.
This is a game balance issue that nobody wants to address or change.
The one other class that reigns with it is Druid. Just like the bard they can do it all. Not AS good socially, WAY more effective at multiple roles during combat.
Eh, I'll always say Paladin is better. At least for low role play groups like mine. Bard is amazing though
The good thing about 5e is that it's very hard to make a bad character imo. I do find monks and warlocks to be mechanically weaker than most of the other classes, but they are also the two most flavorful imo. The core druid features are robust, but I generally find the subclasses to be some of the least compelling in the game to the extent that I only want to play circle of the moon.
@@culo9999 It is hard to make a bad character, but I've seen it done. My Adventurer's League group had someone join mid campaign with a high elf great weapon fighter. We tried to convince her that a high elf fighter is viable, but needs to be Dex based and makes a great Eldritch Knight. She refused all advice, insisting she needed to be a strength based great weapon fighter, and despite this spent her entire time with us standing in the back and impotently plinking at monsters with a longbow. She also over invested in intelligence (despite not wanting to go Eldritch Knight) and Charisma, because she had skill tied to these stats. Ultimately we spent a month getting her caught up to the rest of us so we could continue with our campaign, and then she quit. She was still consistently doing single digit damage per round at level 5, while the rest of us were averaging over 20 damage per round while only being one level higher than her.
Still they complained that the UA Mystic was too good...
To be honest, it wasn't that different from skill monkey classes with a bit more combat oriented feel than a non combat focused base.
We all know that Donkey from Shrek is best bard
I have my next character concept.
And Puss'n Boots is a swashbuckler rogue
He even successfully seduced the dragon. What a legend.
I think that if College of Whispers could keep the shadow for a longer time if not permanently, as opposed to until they finish a long rest, that would really bring it up in power and interest. You can walk through a castle, like a Spy from Team Fortress 2 backstabbing everyone and becoming them.
This Tier ranking is hands down my favorite content to date. Well done and thanks Dungeon Dudes.
Wow, thanks!
I am actively tuning my character sheet as I watch this. Wonderfully explained and objective - I like that they gave their personal take, but ultimately left it to the viewer to decide what fits for them. Cheers!
Why do I have the feeling Kelly's next character in one of Monty's games is going to be college of whispers just to prove himself right?
I think what they're missing about bards is THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE A SUPPORT CLASS. Bards are designed to fill any role in the party. Face or support? Sure! Take Eloquence or Glamour! But they can also be the fighter with Valor or Swords, a thief with Whispers, and a wizard with Lore. The thing about the bards are they can be good at anything, so all the subclasses can be very good a lot of the time, but sometimes by taking the wrong subclass, you take the party down. The bard is designed to fill any role the party needs, so let them! They're not just support classes!
Rant over.
We believe the ability to fill any role the party needs is a component of party support.
@@DungeonDudes Which of course makes the classes you rated lower than others, better than how you ranked them because the ones you didn't like seemed to simply be filling roles you personally don't wanna be as a bard.
If you party has the bard on the frontline over the barbarian, fighter, or paladin y'all are doing something wrong.
@@xaviervega468 I may only be partial to the style because I loved playing a glamour bard, but finding ways to keep myself out of combat and drop control and buff spells (like polymorphing the party member who is ready to go down) is the way to go as a bard.
My mindset for the Eloquence Bard was still based on the UA version, and I gotta say I'm VERY impressed by the official version. My friend is just dipping into the Bard, and I know the Eloquence Bard is gonna work perfectly for the character she has in mind.
i honestly think the Eloquence bard is so strong to the point that it's broken.
@@darienb1127 can you explain why, i never really got the appeal
@@snowyowl7991 so, starting at level 3, you can replace any roll less than 9 for charisma and make it a 10, you can use bardic inspiration to subtract people's saving throws. At 6th, a bardic inspiration die doesn't disappear until the roll succeeds.
This was THE BEST TIMED VIDEO EVER. I’m a Bard in my current campaign and just got to level 3 and I’ve been debating the college. This video literally came out the day before I have to make my decision.
Something I want to ask about would be the College of the Road bard that was added into the Humblewood 5e book that came out a little while ago. Being able to sort of pick up 'tricks' from other classes sounds like a lot of fun, further adding to the versatility of Bards in general. Not all of them are super strong but it is a very interesting thought process of taking that versatility of the class to the next level, able to incorporate other classes abilities and knacks into its already strong form. Love these talks and love these analyses. Top notch stuff guys, and thank you for being so open about your love of bards! Wish more people I played with had that same outlook.
So we are just going to skip over the swords last ability to do what they do, with no limit and still share inspirations. Even at lower levels, no encounter is remotely hard or long enough for u to burn thur that pool, even if you run a mostly battle drive not story like my campaign. I even think the term overspecialization is being misused as all subclasses are specialization for your classes skills, also so what if this doesn’t give a shield, with this class and spells choices( not including feats) you can put fighters and spell casters to shame with just your utility and skill. Not trying to sound like a know it all, and if I do I apologize, but I believe it deserves better than a D.
I think they didint liked it becase it changes the way the bard is played instead of enhancing it. What i think is a bad metric becase all classes need basic enhancement sub-classes but having sub-classes that change the way you play is amazing.
They dont have shields because their flourish can add to their AC not to mention you can get smite spells or destructive wave and can still do other bardy things
Yeah these guys are bloody clowns with no idea
Can we all just send the best of luck to the Dungeon Dudes in the next episode on Cleric subclasses..... those poor poor souls 😂
Gonna have to disagree with your ranking on the Swords Bard. I was playing in a campaign with no tanky characters at all (wild magic sorcerer, diviner wizard, sun soul monk, and me, the Swords Bard). They all were hanging back using ranged attacks while I waded in with my scimitars. I rarely did fantastic damage, but with defensive flourish, I super super difficult to hit. It was a super fun campaign.
But if you're using defensive flourish, you aren't giving your inspiration to your allies. If you're using defensive flourish, you're making attacks rather than casting. If you're using defensive flourish, you're in melee, raising your odds of dropping concentration.
Valor is the better option for a martial bard.
@@MultiracialLion that assumes you want to buff your friends? I like swords because I can self buff and be useful. Then again, I'd try to get a shield and use a rapier so I would be a little tankier
@@darthvega3 i play a bard of sword tabaxi and we also have a cleric who uses guidance and bless and enhance ability. I rarely feel the need to use my ID and the cleric is more than happy to use their spells to help the team.
@@darthvega3 sword bards don't get shield proficiency though.
As we said in the video, the Bard is just an incredible class all round so it's possible to have an amazing time playing the character regardless of the subclass. It's just that in a direct comparison we think Swords Bard is just not as good as the other subclasses.
While rewatching this video now, I feel it would be cool to have a more detailed look into bards the same way you are doing with those new videos. I love the updated format
I think you are undervaluing the whispers bard. For evil bard archetypes it's pretty great. Combined with just one level of hexblade you have a bard that curses, hexes, debuffs, steals the identity of people they kill, inflict psychic damage on hit, and causes terror in people if left alone with them for any amount of time.
As a college of whispers Bard a few levels in paladin you can compel a duel and be there for the death
I completely agree with the assessments. I know we weren't discussing the idea of multi-classing, but since it's become so heated I feel like I should mention something I've done with the Whispers Bard.
My players are in an urban setting and their current BBEG is an Assassin Rogue / Whispers Bard. By bringing these together and leaning extremely hard into the ideas of infiltration, stealth, and disguise, I've created a villain who can justifiably be anywhere, be anyone, and it keeps the party on their toes. Not to mention the cohesion of Psychic Blades, Sneak Attack, and Assassinate. For this urban gothic / detective fiction narrative they're proving to be an extremely competent antagonist.
In terms of multi-classing in the player base, I find the Assassin / Whisper combo to be a more spell oriented variant of the Assassin / Paladin. By itself though, fair enough on the ranking.
Can i ask what your split is between assassin levels and whispers levels? I am making this exact build and would love to see how it fleshes out at higher levels.
@@TheScottishKayaker It depends somewhat on your needs. If you find yourself looking for something more direct combat oriented, invest in Rogue to 5, 7, or 8 for Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and the ASI respectively. If you want more spell focused, stick to 3 in Assasin.
You guys really failed to mention that the Swords Bard is the best option in the Game for Melee Defense. Even without taking Medium Armor Mastery or Multiclassing so you can get access to Shields, you can very easily sit at a Flat 17AC, with a minimum 1-6 Boost to AC very easily done all of combat. With a Shield we’re sitting at a 19+1-6, adding in a feat or Multiclass and you’re up into the stratosphere with this subclass, even the shield spell will be a Massive Boost.
A Variant Human with the Moderately Armored Feat, can have Medium Armor and a Shield while wielding their weapon and sit at essentially a 19+(1-6) so 20-25, without casting any spells and being a full Caster. This is very potent and for those that want to Play an Amazing Gish or Magical Tank this is the subclass to go for. People LOVE Gish and a Tank that can deal ok Damage but can also cast a full array of Spells and never get hit with an easily achieved Passive 19 AC + 1-6 + 5 with a Shield Spell for a 25-30 AC is a hard thing to just say “Nope, this is definitely the worst subclass”. This bard does far better in my eyes than Glamour.
An Eldritch Knight in Full Plate with the Defense Fighting Style and a Shield has AC 21 all the time, and spikes it to 26 with the Shield spell. No feats or multiclassing are required.
Dungeon Dudes and you’re absolutely right. I hold no disagreement with you there, but they don’t get 9th level spells. When it comes to Gish tanks you will find no better, especially considering you can’t pick up Aid, Armor of Agathys, Find Greater Steed, and a huge plethora of other features that can make you into a much better Melee combatant.
I concede that this isn’t the strongest Starting AC without a Shield or any other Features going for it. However, it is by far one of if not the Tankiest option you can get with a Full Caster. (Yes you can argue a Cleric can also have an AC of 20 Statically, but I’ve already shown we can easily beat that turn after turn. You can argue the BladeSinger, but that comes with much heavier restrictions)
Thank you so much for the Reply also!
@@keeganmbg6999 A Forge domain cleric with their own class features can reach a base AC of 22, and has plenty of spell choices to increase that further, gains resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage (albeit as a capstone), resistance/ immunity to fire damage, and also gets Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Animate Objects.
A Hexblade/ Paladin has a plethora of build options and can achieve AC 21+ and may still access 9th level spells, and has Shield. This is most likely the strongest all-round gish option in the game, being both a fantastic caster, extraordinarily resilient in both AC, saving throws, and hit points, and an absolute wrecking ball in melee.
A Bladesinger with Mage Armor, 16 DEX, and 20 INT ramps up to AC 21 in Bladesong, spiking to 26 with shield.
Let's also remember AC does not make one a "tank". Beyond a high AC, a tank also needs the ability to absorb damage, survive, and control the battlefield, and draw attacks towards them and away from allies.
Dungeon Dudes of course, you’re absolutely correct.
However I only spoke of level 3. If you really want the best AC and Tank, you’ll need a way to Sustain yourself. I see High AC as an option that gives that, any character can have access to Medium Armor and obtain a 17 AC as you can play a Mountain Dwarf or a Githyanki and of course Tortle’s begin with a 17 AC.
But that’s not the point I was truly making, if you want to mention Capstone features then the best Tank stands as a Paladin 6/College of Swords Bard 14. 18 AC (Full Plate) + 1 (Defense Fighting Style) + 2 Shield for a Static 21. Every turn you attack your AC increases by a 1-6 without expending any resources. So 22-27, Shield to boost you to 27-32, Concentrating in Haste so you may now sit at a 29-34. You can easily go beyond this with magical items of course.
But you can also get Armor of Agathys, retributive damage stacked atop of Fire Shield deals a significant amount of pain to enemies that hit you, combine this with a Mount (Find Greater Steed) which would also be Hasted and you find yourself ridiculously hard to pin down while maintaining a High Dex and likely a moderate to high Cha and Con.
AC is easy to find in the game if you know where to look, but only the Swords Bard can so easily reach numbers that other’s wish to Grasp at.
I tend to make ridiculous builds just for fun as a DM though, so I look for all weird and ridiculously strong Min-Max options possible...with this in mind, I concede that I may have some bias.
Thank you again for the wonderful discussion.
@@DungeonDudes Shield has a somatic component. You need warcaster to make this work or just not be holding a weapon.
I'd love to see where y'all put college of Creation.
I'm always really pleasantly surprised by the quality of these ranking vids and I'm looking forward to the rest of them
College of Whispers makes for an AMAZING story and plot device due to their subclass description
Kelly’s description of the Valor Bard is how the Hexblade Warlock feels sometimes.
imo playing a hexblade feels more like playing a paladin than a warlock ^^
Srill my favourite subclass though
Monty misspoke, mixed up Unsettling Words with Silver Tongue in his description. You may want to retcon a text correction to the video.
yeah, unsettling words is till the start of YOUR next turn, so the debuff only works for your allies
@@TheJadenYukl That's not possible without taking the video down, oh well! Mistakes happen.
Douglas Martins, that’s actually not true. You don’t have to take your bonus action in any particular order. You can take your bonus action and then your main action.
You can de-buff an enemy’s saving throw then immediately cast something like Hold Person.
Sean Plunkett or Dominate person
I'm really enjoying these videos! I love how worked up Monty gets over the College of Whispers Bard XD!
I played a swords bard for a long time and it was incredible. I think they have a very fixed set on what a bard is and what they should do.
New camera/lighting? Image quality looks really good for some reason haha
Yes, new camera! Thank you!