Monk Subclass Tier Ranking (Part 1) in Dungeons and Dragons 5e
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... We discuss the three subclasses presented in the PHB and how they stack up against one and other, we discuss our personal opinions on the subclasses and take a look at community votes for them as well. this is part 1 of our Monk subclass ranking.
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TIME STAMPS
0:00 - Opening
1:07 - Disclaimer & Criteria
4:06 - Way Of Shadow
9:55 - Way Of The Four Elements
15:37 - Way Of The open Hand
21:13 - community Rankings
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Also, Kelly's mustache leveled up.
That mustache gives advantage on all Charisma checks.
oh plz go for that escanor mustache
He definately used his ability score improvement and put 2 points in thiccness
@@Medaumplay3 Most certainly what she said. Sorry ... couldn't resist
#movember :)
Way of the Four Elements, D Rating
Me, playing a main Way of the Four Elements: yup.
Same. The only time mine really shines the way i wanted was using my dm's homebrew elemental dmg rules on a perfect foe... in one round i racked up 202 dmg (elemental vulnerability, elemental homebrew rule) other than that one time with edited rules. Really wish I'd chosen another subclass
How does it feel to use ki like spell slots, except you pay spell tax on a really small list of spells?
i'm really curious about this, do even the low level fist of unbroken air, water whip and fangs of the fire snake noti mprove your action in any way? they look great for a low level monk on paper
@@menarg1549 Fist of Unbroken Air and Water Whip are pretty good at low levels, and since they deal bludgeoning damage you can combine them with the Crusher feat for a better result. And with the optional rules in Tasha's, you can make a bonus action attack with Ki-Fueled Strikes if you use ki points on your turn, so you can knock an enemy prone with Water Whip and then kick them while they're on the ground. And at higher levels, you can start flying and pull enemies up with Water Whip if you want and can spend that many ki points (maybe in a boss fight?)
Remember to ask your DM if you can use homebrew disciplines, there's a lot out there.
"They may not be the easiest class to jump into..."
*XP to Level 3 would like to know your location*
Exactly what i was thinking.
XP to Level 3 is a hack, but sure.
>Catapult has a minimum weight of 1 pound.
>Can't be used RAW on gold coins.
>Uses it on Gold Coins.
>SWEARS he is using it RAW.
If he would admit to the homebrew stuff he did he wouldn't be so bad but he swears that the way he misinterprets things is how they really function in 5e.
@@THEGRUMPTRUCK that video was 100% a joke/skit and the characters/actions taken in it were not meant to be taken seriously.
I watched that video right before this one XD
@@timob1681 not according to his own word.
Every Monk character that I make is based on a professional wrestler. The first one I made was Macho Man Randy Savage, and the most recent was The Undertaker.
"Oohh YEAH, The macho monk randy savage uses fury of blows YEAH"
@@dripskylark6054 I took a level of drunken master for the improvised weapon proficiency so I could use a STEEL FOLDING CHAIR OH YEAH!
🔔
I should make Macho Man at some poiny
I'm about to play a goliath Rune Knight based on Randy Savage. And you better believe im going to go all out on the role-playing "OH YEEEEEEEAH"
What are you talking about? The Way of the Four Elements makes you feel EXACTLY like Avatar: the Last Airbender...
... The movie
Hidden Nerdy Accurate. Also, does sucking count as air bending?
The entire archetype could be somewhat salvaged if the Ki cost for everything was reduced by just 1 point. An expanded selection would make it good, sure, but it just amazes me that such a seemingly small change could effect the quality of the Archetype so greatly.
You mean that M night film that doesn't exist
@@Ty-yy7zr Obviously not. For it does not in fact exist. Such an atrocity has never, ever been made.
Legendary comment
Can’t wait for sorcerer and warlock
Same I am currently playing a 13th level divine soul sorcerer and it’s my fav character I have ever played!
And warlocks are my fav overall class!
Sammmmmmeeee I play a celestial warlock
Celestial and Hexblade are the only good warlock subclasses change my mind
As someone who loves the mechanics and flavor of the Divine Soul Sorcerer and Celestial Warlock, same af!
@@ATG3192 omg same! I’m multiclassing as a divine soul sorcerer!
Edit: 10:04. Kelly’s subclass shit talking game is super strong! Lol
I kept waiting for Kelly to tell me that this town is not big enough for the both of us.
Mustache game is strong in this video!
It looks great though
200% stylin
I am inspired to grow my mustache out!
With Way of Shadow, pointing out that his character had the Mobile feat, and therefore had more mobility than he needed, just indicates to me that one could just swap out the feat, and still have great mobility. Feels like now I can have my cake and eat it too.
Haven’t played way of shadow yet but Sentinel + Mobile was a super fun combo on my four elements monk.
Just finishsed a small-campaign as a shadow monk and I can confirm this would likely be the case. At level 9 I had 50ft without mobile and almost never had the need to use it in conjunction with shadow step, only using it for advantage situations rather than movement ability. So yeah mobile is definitely not a necessity.
It is brutally mobile without the feat. Their point is actually good, it is so good at mobility that it begins to feel as your mobility skills are in the way of your other skills. A single damage skill would have made it s tier.
I dont know why... But them pointing out the flaws of the class in that way irked me. Like, a shadow monk can be anything. You could be an elf shadow monk with the observamt feat. And invisibility can be very useful as an action. I can think of so many ways to use the shadow teleport and invisibility.
Invis: Turn invisible before combat to give yourself an advantage on the first attack. Also freaks out ypurbopponents when someonencomes from nowhere and sucker punches them in the face. Mixing the Boots of Elvenkind as well as the Invis makes you unable to be noticed. With invis, you cant be seen and with the boots, you cant be heard or leave tracks.
Shadowstep: Hey! Is that a window you can see through that leads to a dimly lit room and it is dark inside? Is that a roof of a building? I mean... With an imovable rod and the teleport powers, you can make any position in 3-D space a place you can be on.
Have your wizard polymorph the rogue into a mouse and carry them in your backpack, then do all your stealth things while conserving your ki. I feel this subclass kinda got shafted by a somewhat meh counter.
I think the new dragon monk that just came into UA will be a real replacement to 4 elements monk. It gives you elemental damage and cool flavor.
Pretty much. they are giving it the undying warlock treatment with making the "Undead" warlock....
Plus, none of its features take away from the core class features. They only add to it
@@frostdragonking5336 The Undead Warlock didn’t make it into Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything, only Fathomless and Genie.
@@OakenTome yea, it'll most likely come next year with the new ravenloft book
Reading Dragon Monk, it feels more AtLA than 4 Elements. Rewatching the series, yes they do fire blast, but most of it is done at close range if not melee. It wouldn't be that hard to reflavor it a little to be Benders.
If a Shadow Monk had Devil's Sight as part of it's 3rd or 6th level ability, it would be S tier, easily.
Yeah, well, for now, Eldritch Adept lets you learn one Invocation of your choice, and it's clear which one to go for.
Or sneak attack
In the same way, Fighting Initiate also lets you take a fighting style, Blind Fighting can be solid, as it works against invisible opponents its also great
@@profoakton Actually, I like your suggestion better as it is more of a “Monk” ability anyway
@@williambennett7935 In fairness it wasn't my idea, had videos on autoplay before making a way of the shadow monk and heard it discussed.
But I whole heartedly agree, blind fighting seems like an ability a monk would be able to acquire with training
"I went into The Monk concerned that it wasn't going to please me" - Kelly
Mood.
That's a lot of pressure for the Monk 😂😔
hehe flurry of BLOWS
I am loving this series. Keep them coming.
P.S. Kelly, the mustache looks great. Happy Movember.
For WotS monk, we don't improve it to the point of seeing in *all* magical darkness, but instead allow it, like shadow sorcerer, to see in their own magical darkness.
Or just limit the range that it can see in any Magical Darkness, like 10ft at Level 6 and improve it later on.
Before watching, is Way of the Four Elements going to be D ranked? It sure feels that way looking over the class.
I would give the Four Elements monk the 4 "bending" cantrips (Mold Earth, Shape Water, Control Flames, Gust), each one at the levels 3, 6, 11, 17, the player could choose the order of the elements for herself.
They don't do damage, so don't have to worry about breaking the game, but can be used (or maybe abused a bit if you're clever) very much as utility spells.
And optionally I would rule that you can change one of your flurry of blows attack for one of these cantrips (but only one attack per round). I'm not sure if this would be broken.
There's actually a fan-made "rework" of sorts that does that. They also reduce the cost of certain disciplines and add a lot more abilities you can choose from. Unfortunately, it still takes away from the class by making you spend ki-points into abilities that generally aren't as useful as just running up to something and Stunning Strike it.
I always felt way of the four elements should have functioned like a Bender from avatar.
@@THEGRUMPTRUCK Saying they should have functioned as a bender from Avatar is so vague it’s essentially meaningless.
The problem with that idea (which is a good one) is that most of those spells did not come out until the Elemental Evil expansion or Xanathar's.
@@maxx8362 It's awkward that if you want to realize that Avatar fantasy, you might as well play a wizard or sorceror if you want to control elements.
I found a great class rework on DM's Guild a while back called The Way of the Five Elements. It's a phenomenal change over the OG Elemental monk, and feels way more like Avatar mixed with different kung-fu styles. Every time you use an elemental ability your aura gets stronger and you get more bonuses, but they go ebb if you don't keep it up. It's super cool, look it up.
EDIT: It was the Dawnforged cast "Way of the Five Elements"
I don't want to be weird here, but Kelly's mustache makes him look like a very polite Wyatt Earp. Like, the sort of Wyatt Earp who, if you invited him over for dinner, would not only shoot bad guys trying to rustle your cattle, but would also help with the dishes after dinner.
Tranquility on the Open Hand monk is not as useless as you might imagine when used in combination with the monk's other features. Often it gives the monk a very strong opening turn when combined with their absurd movement. It basically allows them to maneuver around multiple enemies with less chance of getting hit by opportunity attacks, and get at the enemy's squishy backline. It also means that you don't have to spend a ki point while diving into that backline to use patient defense for the disengage action. It's still riskier than that, but sometimes being able to cover a lot of ground and stun the enemy wizard on the first turn can turn the tide of combat.
exactly. I didn't have to use tranquility as much as my monk found slippers of spider climb. I spent most the campaign on a ceiling or dropping down from a ceiling.
The RAW wording, "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn" implies/means that you cannot move before you spend a Ki point to attack twice with Flurry of Blows. This means that both targets will need to be within strike range of already.
So only 2 targets that you must attack immediately after your Attack action, a bit limited but still A tier useful, if not more
@@jelte3754 It's probably the two hours of sleep I'm functioning on today, but I think I'm missing your point.
@@jelte3754 Well that's sort of what he said. It's an opener, meaning after first turn it won't be in effect. But on that turn you get to where you need to be because of the protection offered.
@@1pieveofKH oh whoopsie, I saw a comment about the Open Hand and I wanted to add to that. I agree that avoiding attacks of opportunity can be very useful. It it also possible using the Open Hand Technique reaction loss, which can be quite powerful! You can step away from the melee enemies and let your Sentinel fighter/barbarian hold the line. Indirectly, it stacks onto the defensive capabilities as well
“Let’s look at some of the ki abilities the monk has.”
So, basically Way of the Four Elements is The Last Airbender Movie...
A way of the shadow monk in a setting like Icewind Dale Rime of the Frostmaiden, where everything is in dim light, is absolutely amazing.
I think the way of the elements monk deserves an honorable mention as the only monk subclass that can expend all of their ki points on a turn. Even though the spells are restricted by level, the disciplines don't seem to be. 1 ki point per d10 on fist of unbroken air is a pretty stellar falcon punch. Though afterwards you aren't a monk anymore, you are just a garbage fighter.
Reminds me of a One Piece character who could unload one super strong punch but had to warm up for it and prepare it for a huge amount of time. After unloading he was pretty useless.
multiclass that with assassin (and maybe gloomstalker) for the crit doubling your dice, and you could do some serious damage :)
at 20th level the wind punch/water whip powers can deal a max of 21d10 damage, it's not efficient at all but think of the funsies!
I've had a lot of fun with my Way of the Four Elements Monk Bugbear character. Being able to punch things 20ft away is amazing, and setting them on fire is a bonus.
For those unaware: Bugbears threaten with a 10ft reach to melee attacks normally. Fangs of the Fire Snake add an additional 10ft to that and adds fire damage to the punches.
Bugbear Assassin is also fun....
Pair that with sentinel and you can attack people as a reaction 20 feet away with a melee attack. Bonkers
Shadow monk gets four spells at third level and elements monk has to wait until level 17 to get a fourth spell.
3:23 scared the living shit out of me haha the sudden change to right side audio really spooked me haha
I just met this channel and I'm using this videos to help my friends to start playing, a thanks from brazil
I hope after all are posted, including Tasha's Cauldron, you guys go back and do an in depth homebrew on how to fix the D tier subclasses.
For example, there were a ton of new elemental spells from Elemental Evil PG/Xanathars Guide. They need to be added to the 4 Elements monk somehow
Ngl when Kelly said 'Prepare to be disappointed' I lowkey laughed wayyy harder than I should've
Edit:
I also really agree about Open Hand Monk. For the longest time, I didn't actually know what the 6th & 11th abilities were until I actually looked at it. They are just really forgettable.
I think the Monk has a "stereotype" of being one of the weaker class majorly because of Way of The Four Elements. It's definitely the coolest looking archetype in the PHB, so many new players who want to play Monk are going to gravitate towards it and are going to end up with a negative impression of the class once they're under performing compared other classes when they get around 5-8th level.
It's sad because, when you look at the stuff the Monk gets, it seems like a pretty good class; crap load of attacks, cheap stuns, Evasion, proficiency in ALL Saving Throws, ect., that some pretty good stuff for a martial class, but it's not going to mean much if you're spending half your Ki on a Fireball spell that a Sorcerer or Wizard of the same level could cast a dozen times over.
You're missing out then.
@@curnott6051 hard to argue with treantmonk’s video on monks though. They just don’t stack up to other classes.
@@DidierPilon I watched that video and strongly disagreed with it. Not the least of which was him complaining about how Ki is a limited resource that you can burn through pretty fast but not acknowledging that it does build as you level up and the simple fact that you get them back on a short rest. Not to mention how many classes he had to compare the monk to to so say it was bad. For me at least if you have to compare it to 8 (honestly I just said a random number but you get the point) other classes to point out how each of them does one thing better then the monk, you are trying too hard. Others also made these points among others in the comment section to that video.
@@si1verg3cko exactly.every class has resources which are limited in some way or another. So that video maker simply has no clue how to use monks to their full potential and thus thinks that they are lagging behind
That mustache is so suave and gentlemanly. Wilhelm is coming out in Kelly's day to day life, it seems.
‘Way of the Four Elements’
*D*
Ouch.
D was generous.
@@connormcneill7773 Hopefully the Variant Features in Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything make the class and subclass a bit better.
every DM should just let player's take the reddit "fixed" version of that subclass
@@OakenTome Sadly, no. There was no mention of any changes regards Four Elements, and I don't remember any changes to monks in UA in general.
I found a great replacement on DM's Guild a while back called "Way of the Five Elements". It's a lot more well-balanced and really takes the elemental, blank-bender, kung-fu style of it to 11
Tbh I really needed this, especially with how important today is here in the U.S . I'm gonna be binge watching Drakkenheim all day today to try and distract myself from the upcoming chaos that will erupt during these next couple days and/or weeks
Thank you Kelly and Monty
Here's hoping the thing you want to be distracted from is only as bad as Bush vs Gore in 2000. But with a different result (republicans won that one somehow).
@@44R0Ndin (somehow? We know how. It was a fraud. Notably, all of the judges that decided that case in favour of the conservatives have now been made Supreme Court justices, with Kav and Barrett being the most recent of those. Weird, huh? 🤔😉 Almost like they planned for the future!)
@@mduckernz Well both sides are claiming fraud now.
ua-cam.com/video/XeML7-7GnjI/v-deo.html
Kelly's mustache lookin swankyyy, Huk Huk ;))
Open Hand is so much fun. Also, I noticed y'all switched format from alphabetical order to PHB then supplements. Is that what you plan to do going forward? It makes sense since some people play PHB only or at least don't have access to all the other supplements.
I think it's also because Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is coming up, probably
Kelly's intro to Element Monk was priceless! Lol
I think the dialog on the way of shadow monk definitely shows the difference between player and dm perspectives perfectly the dm is looking for you to use the class as they think would be optimal where as the player was like yea it was just fun af and I'd do it again in a heartbeat
I'm so ready for you guys to talk about the monk class! No one really ever wants to...
Kensei is S+
It’s weird. Monk’s get SO. MANY. FREAKING. FEATURES, and yet I’ve never heard anyone say monks are their favorites
@@aldoesagood5316 not everyone is into their flavour I suppose
@@aldoesagood5316 I’m so pumped to try a kensai monk. Damnit I need more d&d
@@aldoesagood5316 they are really weak after 5th level. They don't keep up with other martial classes.
@@aldoesagood5316 Treantmonk done a whole video on it. Monks arguably are the worst class in the D&D, they drop too hard after 5th lvl compared to other martial classes, and they aren't good enough in any role. All they have is flavor.
I am so grateful for this video, I love your insightful content and I've been wanting to learn more about monks but I just haven't got a chance to read yet
Edit: and of course I am loving that magnificent mustache
Monks are probably my favorite class to play. I love the passive abilities, versatility, and flavor of them.
BUT
Until Astral Self started being play tested none of the sub classes caught my attention. The rest are either boring or clunky and don't quite run smoothly.
Even Astral Self is a bit clunky till the version in Tasha's comes out! They really cleaned it up.
I had a relatively rough day, this video helped me sort some things out and calm me down, thank you for the amazing content
I have really enjoyed your videos in the last few months that I have subscribed, but this series is my favorite!
“One of the weaker classes”
Me: *Laughs in Reflect and Jesusing on water*
Still weak.
@@MultiCommissar But it’s fun to play. It isn’t always about dealing heavy damage, y’know?
Your original statement wasn't about fun though.
@@MultiCommissar Yes it was. Running on water is, to me, a fun feat. The person in the video probably wasn’t talking about fun, but I was. And reflect, while can do damage, is ultimately to reduce damage done to you. Also a “strong class” isn’t always a heavy hitting class. Monks are known to be versatile and adaptable. They may not be especially good at dealing damage, but it’s great for avoiding and reflecting damage.
It tries to do too many things at once, and while monks are in a better place in 5e than in past editions and in Pathfinder, it still falls short compared to other classes. Some subclasses are excellent, like shadow or Long Death. The problem is, is that you have to pick to be either mobile, defend, or do more damage. All of those stemming from a limited resource.
just thought about quivering palm as a pretty good way to burn through a bbeg's legendary resistance - it'll have to resist, but even so it still takes heavy damage
I love this channel, i have watched literally every video in the class guide playlist at least once. It’s a great day when I see a new upload, thanks for the great work!
Wow, thanks!
@@DungeonDudes Love your content. Just watched your Video on monks and wondered what you might think of this home brew.
I had a player that was desperate to play an airbender style character so we toyed around with this broken class quite a bit trying to make it more fun and balanced to other classes.
Instead of spells, we tied the elements to the body and attacks the monk makes.
As the monk advances they can gradually chose mastery over each of the 4 elements. Each short rest they could attune a mastered element to become resistant to (1/2 damage) and an elemental damage type for their hand damage to become.
Instead of spending ki for spells, ki was spent to make a ranged attack with that element increasing in damage as levels advanced. 1 ki point for single target and 2 ki for a 10` sphere using the rogue sneak attack table for damage dice.
We also changed the stunning strike into exposing strike which the monk could use to make a target vulnerable to a specific element for 1 rd per 3 monk levels on a failed save.
The Monastic Traditions were geared around manipulating and opposing elements used against you.
At 6th level the monk gained elemental osmosis allowing the monk to absorb elemental magic once per long rest at spell level 1/2 the monks level rounded down and convert it into 1 ki point per spell level absorbed and reducing the damage of the spell by 1/2 or no damage on successful save.
At 11th level Elemental Severing Allowed the monk to use their reaction and spend 2 ki to make a contested arcana check to counter any elemental attack (if they had the required mastery).
At 17th Level Soul of the Elements Once per day the Monk could spend an action and up to 5 ki to become a pure conduit for their attuned elements making them immune to their attuned elemental resistance for 1 round per ki spent.and gaining +2d6 damage to their offensive element.
This homebrew played really well in campaign without feeling Over Powered but really captured the flavor and feel of what an air bender could be in the D&D universe.
shadow monk + devil´s sight = literally win dnd
Honestly the revised version of the 4 Elements is possibly one of my favorite things i've seen
Once you guys are done with all the classes, can you do a video comparing the state of the classes vs each other (as a whole), mostly in reference to their versatility in sub classes, and how viable they are currently and what you would like to see changed.
I really appreciate that you guys explain what each tier MEANS before you sort things. Very helpful!
Also... yikes... 4 Elements. I had a player try it out in a one-shot, and he IMMEDIATELY regretted it when he saw how little he was able to do compared to the rest of the party.
Open Hand is my personal favorite of the PHB subclasses. Very good from levels 3-20, and lots of roleplay options (like a Tavern Brawler Half-Orc!).
I think you guys are the highest quality content creators for DnD. I listen and re-listen to your content just to stay inspired by different aspects of the game. Keep up the good work.
Maybe when you finish this series you could do another about fixing some of the subclasses? D and C for example.
I love the moustache Kelly!
Amazing video like always, I can't wait till this series is finished I love your rankings of classes so much haha,
I was waiting for this one!!! Thx
6 levels of Way of Shadow Monk 3 levels of Gloom Stalker Ranger and 3 levels of Assassin Rogue and you have yourself a Ninja .
The best ninja
"I'm Batman"
when Tasha's comes out, are you guys making a tier list for just the book or are you making an update to each individual class?
They will likely do them as individual classes, maybe bundling one or two, because they have about 3 subclasses per class I think
can't speak for them but honestly, can you just read a class and tell how well it plays without actually experiencing it first hand? sometimes it reads worse or better than it is. I'm sure they can give a review on initial reaction to new material but without any real hands on experience with it...
Kind of like reading the ingredients to a dish without eating it. You can tell me what you think it tastes like but I'm not gonna take your word for it until after you've at least taken a bite.
@@Fektthis we dont actualy watch to see if it is good or not, we watch becuse we like to see what they think
@@Fektthis I agree. One thing is that most of these are from Unearthed Arcana classes from the past year. So, there is some of it that is potentially tested.
But, more likely this will be a "first impressions" list. With the idea that in a year or two, they might revisit it.
@@jkaan1014 They did alter quite a bit. I've been following the previews and leaks, but a lot is at least very similiar
I'm currently making a new monk character and i couldn't decide the subclass, this is gonna be useful, can't wait for the next part
I was just searching for this. It was about time lol, thanks dudes.
I like this formula because it means they can do additional "parts" for Tasha's content.
I feel like way of the elements needed to enhance flurry of blows and other features as opposed to double taxing Ki for spells. Maybe allow for them to cast a cantrip and flurry of blows, and later cast a spell and flurry like an EK. Perhaps augment their fists/monk with elemental damages or effects (or let them use normal damage die, but with added elemental damage). Or if dodge they can use their reaction to cast absorb elements for free? Could at least be fun with the Dwarf dogde monk build.
I hard agree something like the Eldrich Knight/ arcane trickster would have worked better, maybe with Transmutation and conjuration spells, or maybe even let them pick some from Druid spell lists? Someone get on this homebrew!
Or maybe not limit their spells to certain schools of magic but to certain damaging types like fire, cold, lightning, and thunder. Maybe force too? Then limit to either the wizard or sorcerer spell list
Still give limited spell slots like eldritch knight though. It wouldn’t even be broken just better
I did a homebrew of a druid-spellcasting 4 elements monk (like EK/AT) and had fixed abilities that used your ki like sorcery points. It's was a lot more streamlined, but the problem is the druid spell list is more support based and there some spells that just don't work well with monk abilities (I'm looking at you Flame Blade).
For non-homebrew, you can also multiclass and go half Land Druid for some spellcaster-monk fun.
I am ready to balance my Ki with your new video.
Thanks guys!
Great content as always.
I love this series, it is great hearing what both of you and the community have to say.
P.s.
Kelly your mustache is looking great man. 😎
Fantastic video, thank you so much
I'm new to DnD and will be playing a monk. This is great information
Given how so many of the classes have subpar features or subclasses, I would LOVE to see a top ten list of recommended adjustments to the worst rated classes and subclasses from your series to make the D tier subclasses up to A or S-tier
A lot of the worst subclasses (and class) really need to be trashed and rebuilt from the ground up though. The ones that can be fixed with adjustments usually aren't that bad.
@@asherandai1000 This. Keeping the concept but throwing out everything mechanical is probably the best practice.
assassin just has to be remade completely
That would be awesome; falling behind and staying behind due to design oversights is always a drag
Can I just say I love how much of a good sport Kelly is :D
I've been waiting for this! A happy subscriber
yesss I've been waiting for this one! I love monks so so much, theyre a ton of fun to play!
How to make way of the four elements monk: Take a different subclass of monk, multiclass one level into Sorcerer. Take one element each for your 4 cantrips and Absorb Elements and Burning Hands as your lv 1 spells. You're good to go.
It's Tuesday my dudes.
Paladin and Monk are my favorite classes, really glad to see this!
Really digging the curled 'stache, Kelly.
Monk was my very "second" class ever after a badly made SwordSage (3.5), and since then I LOVED it. I still make many different characters and classes, but if I could I would only make monks. Monks monks monks everywhere
After you finish all the tier videos where you should each build a 4-6 man dream team filling each of the combat roles and talk about why you built them as you did
Are you asking for a comments based riot? Because that's how you get a comments based riot xD
@@asherandai1000 see, this guy knows what's up
Super helpful because I'm thinking of making my back up character a monk. Thanks guys.
rewachting all the videos since i just found you guys....that stache out of nowhere killed me
Ey! I play a Wood Elf Shadow Monk with one level in rogue and I’ve been having a blast. High perception and high stealth is a great combo. I also took observant as a feat so my passive perception is 29 which makes my DM a little mad sometimes but hey. I know I min maxed a tiny bit, but my character does feel pretty powerful in our game.
Your DM has my sympathy, but this isn't a min-max problem, it's a problem with WotC's lazy/inconsistent design. If it makes your DM feel any better, Sneak Attack isn't supposed to work with unarmed strikes, THAT would be overpowered(/s).
Take 2 more and pick the assassin subclass. Have fun
Dm: "so you're saying you punch a trex and knock it prone? That's impossible"
No, it's necessary
Exactly. I don't understand at all why one would consider a monk "weak" My tortle shadow monk (yes, I initially made him as a teenage mutant ninja turtle joke because my inner 12 year old thought it was amusing). We're running through the Undermountain module and he is probably the character our DM fears the most because of his total immunity to poisons making him laugh mockingly at any drow trying to attack him and stunning strike together with the amazing mobility giving him the possibility to take out several high threat enemies completely for several rounds. Casters of all kinds are in mortal fear of him appearing near them because that means they get stunned and don't get to do anything until they're dead. Stun the biggest threats on the field and leave them for your party's damage dealers to murder before they ever get to do anything to any of you. Remember, D&D is a team game. His job is to go in first and set 'em up so the other partymembers can knock 'em down, and to make the DM gnash his teeth in despair as his terrifying monsters never get to use their high-powered spells and abilities.
It does help that this particular character does have a 19 con and the Tough feat, putting him all the way at the top of our party's HP ranking and thereby giving him the ability to tank any hits from lesser enemies he exposes himself to while stunning their leaders. And he's quite capable of doing damage if necessary with potentially 4 attacks in a round, all of which, no matter what weapon he uses, do the unarmed combat dice in damage (Spear or quarterstaff? Shortsword? Dagger? Doesn't matter. They all do, at current level, 1d8 base damage + your bonus for high str or dex and any magical bonuses). Monks are not weak. They're team players.
I homebrew Way of Four elements to the rules of
-At level 3 pick your core element to bend, gain a new element at each milestone, with each milestone also gaining a spell level (2nd level spells at 3rd level)
-the element you gain allows you to cast ANY spell or centrip that deals damage of that element or causes effect of said element (like wind wall for air)
-When casting, use 1 ki point for each level of the spell, cantrips are free.
You are now the avatar with your character progression now following the show.
Let me know how this is, it's how I let my players pick up the subclass.
Omg, Kelly, you cracked me up with your Avatar comment! 😝
The new UA Dragon monk seems like a much better Way of the Four Elements monk.
"If you love avatar The Last Airbender... prepare to be horribly disappointed."
I'm dead 🤣
As usual, I’m back on your channel to give me guidance ! You guys are invaluable.
This review seems pretty spot on. I agree with your ratings!
Open hand monks at 17th level:
Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
*Omae wa mou shindeiru*
(There it is, the obligitory Fist of the North Star joke!)
Kobold: *screams in fear*
Just wondering, is Cobalt Soul going to be included in part 2 or no? I realize it's not in SCAG or Xanathar's but I think it'd still be neat to get your opinion on.
I don't think it will
I really don't think so, there's not much of a point in reviewing homebrew here
* Beauregard Lionette has entered the chat. *
Why should it be? It’s homebrew and hasn’t been officially published in anything. Just because it’s from Critical Role and on D&D Beyond doesn’t mean it’s anywhere near official.
@@OakenTome Ah, my bad, I thought it was in the Wildemount book for some reason.
One thing I do think is worth noting about the Way of the Shadow monk is the shadow-based abilities do require a DM that is good about clarifying light sources and perhaps using something like Roll20's dynamic lighting. I played this class with an inexperienced DM and it made it extremely difficult to ever use those abilities.
Granted, everything in D&D can be ruined by the wrong DM but I think Way of the Shadow is a particularly tough one in those cases.
Yeah in an in person game Way of Shadow can be extremely hard to run imo
I’m currently playing a strength-based tortle monk/barbarian multiclass, and I’m loving it. I’ve been focusing mostly on getting into position and knocking enemies prone to set up our fighter or paladin. It works so well as a combat support character and I’ve been able to pull off a lot of hilarious maneuvers.
Shadow monk must be op at night.
Have you guys thought about a series how to "fix" sub-classes that are interesting lore wise but implemented poorly into 5e? :)
I started playing D&D for the first time a few weeks ago. I only have experience on the video games (Baldur's gate/Neverwinter sagas) and this channel is helping me a lot!!
My character is a gnome monk way of the sun soul. It might be weak but is a lot of fun playing as a miniature hadouken throwing Jean Calude Van Damme.
I like the format of covering the PHB first, then the other sourcebooks in the second video!
Bonus video for the homebrew "Way of the Cobalt Soul" that was added to D&D Beyond last week?
Treating Critical Role stuff as official content (which is what they go over in these videos) is frustrating. We get it, Critical Role is popular. Too bad the subclasses and monsters in Wildemount are overpowered.
Echo fighter is just too cool. Having an echo just gives utility that most martial classes don’t have. And there’s nothing wrong with op monsters. I can’t wait for the nein to fight them in islcross next week!!!
I'm not going to argue with your rankings, overall I think they're pretty fair. However two point's I'd like make a couple of notes on each subclass that I don't think you gave fair, or much, consideration towards (forget the trash avatar subclass, that might as well not exist)
Open Hand: Tranquility is far from useless. It essentially means you'll always be going first in the first combat of the day and can't be ambushed, unless each attacker passes a saving throw for each attack they make. As you and others have noted, many campaigns end up with far fewer combats then the "recommended" amount (6 i think it was?), so in many campaigns this will come into play quite a lot. Also every single time while traveling and rolling for random encounters.
Just imagine it... You're walking through the forest and fail your perception check/passive check to notice the band of giants about to ambush you. They burst from cover, catching everyone by surprise, rush towards your monk raising their massive weapons ready to totally crush him/her... and then they stop. Your monk looks at them peacefully (surprise round) while they try to gather the will to kill this puny creature, and before they can muster the willpower your monk explodes into action and stuns them all letting the rest of the party recover their surprise and totally annihilate the giants without anyone taking any damage at all.
Yes this actually happened in a game I played in, but it perfectly highlights just how powerful something as simple as a full day long sanctuary spell can be. It's not too overpowered because enemies can still pass their saving throws, but even so it gives so much to that first encounter of the day that it cannot (or should not) be ignored or dismissed. Even just a bad initiative roll is enough to bring it into play, giving a huge edge without being OP in the encounter.
Shadow: There's no such thing as too much manoeuvrability. It's just options, and options are never bad. There can be plenty of situations where teleportation is preferable to direct movement, or even where direct movement isn't possible even for a monk. It sounds like Kelly fell into the very common trap of "I have to use my subclass abilities". Lots of subclasses have these traps, abilities that provide an extra option where normal options can't help, and players fall into the trap of feeling they "need" to use these abilities all the time when really they don't, or forgetting they have other abilities because they become so focused on the subclass addition. Shadow step is in absolutely no way a detriment unless it's used poorly, and best of all it doesn't cost Ki points so you can use it as often as you like and keep doing all the other awesome monk stuff without any worry at all.
Lastly, turning invisible as an action *for free* is friggin amazing! Doesn't matter what level you are, that's never not going to be useful unless you're in a brightly lit area with no shadows. It's a scouting tool, it's an infiltration tool, it's an escape tool, it's a damn swiss army knife... *for free*!!! Yes it has limitations, such as not being able to go into well lit areas... but guess what, you also have shadow step. And shadow step doesn't break invisibility. Remember how I said teleportation might be preferable to direct movement? Well here's a prime example built right into the subclass. And neither ability costs you anything at all. So what if it can't be used in combat very well? It's not a combat tool. The main monk class has combat pretty darn well covered, but has almost nothing outside of combat. So why shouldn't the subclass pick up the slack? Shadow monk does this perfectly in my opinion.
I don't think any monk class deserves an S, because in my opinion the monk class as a whole lacks flexibility. It's a great class and very powerful, but it does what it does and doesn't leave much room for deviation. It's almost the complete opposite of the fighter class. Fighter are almost blank slates that can be easily mix'n'matched to make almost anything happen, whereas Monks are just Monks... changing subclass won't change very much, and changing weapon's literally won't change anything at all (don't even need weapons, they're almost just pure flavour to a monk). Can't wear armour either so that's fixed in place too. That lack of flexibility is what stops the monk class being top dog in my opinion, and the subclasses aren't able to change that no matter how great they are. There are so few gaps for the subclasses to fill that without breaking the base class they can't really do a whole lot. Shadow does what's available the best in my opinion, closely followed by open hand.
I think why monks feel so weird is because it's a utility class being forced into what feels like a combat role. Monks are meant to be flexible, and to excel in a handful of areas without being an everyman. A lot of the time it feels like Wizards tries to shoehorn them as an unarmed fighter.
@@THEGRUMPTRUCK What kinds of features should they have access to? Would the one in Pathfinder 2e serve as a decent example?
@@unwithering5313 I think most, if not all the classes in PF2e are very well done. The issue Monks have in D&D and PF1E (Unchained Monk rectified most of the issues and is a great class) is that Monk is squishy, and its unarmed AC will never be as high as someone full-on tanking, and with their middling Hit dice (Unchained is the exception since its HD is a D10 which is fine) and the fact that Monks aren't encouraged by any class features to focus Constitution, you can't take many hits in combat to start. How Unarmed strikes are dealt with in regards to damage puts them very low beneath actual magic weapons with the exception of particular one-trick builds for them that force them into a particular niche. Monks are supposed to represent mastery of body and self, and much of the time they feel very lacking in regard to doing anything in particular.
I dabbled with a PF1e Monk hombrew that focused on switching between Offensive and Defensive styles as an immediate action, allowing the monk to be offensive when it needed to be while defensive once things start to go south. It may have been a little too strong to be able to shift into Total Defense as an immediate action (Increased AC in pathfinder 1e, automatic disadvantage in 5e) but while i would not endorse it unless it was fleshed out, it felt and flowed almost like how people perceive a martial arts based class should work in a tabletop without removing its utility.
Although in 5e I believe Open Hand does very well for Monks and I encourage people to play it if they want a martial arts character.
I can't wait for part 2.
I've just stated playing a kensei monk and I'm looking forward to seeing how you rank this subclass.
Being able to make use of magical and special weapons you find during you campaign cannot be underestimated. Although the fighters and paladins in the party will be disappointed they have to share when they find out your proficient.
In my experience Kensei is pretty weak. Ya the ability to use more weapons is nice but thats pretty much the only thing Kensei monks get.
I did a complete homebrew of the Way of 4 Elements subclass with my DM. We made it a million times better without even trying very hard. You got 4 stances, one for each element, switched stances as a bonus action, and got access to passive bonuses depending on your stance. (+5ft melee range for fire, extra movement speed for air, AC for earth and so on) plus a much more versatile set of 'spells'
Much better. I enjoyed it a lot.
I really enjoy a "homebrew" version is the elemental, that gives more passive and special abilities. The spells are still shit though
There’s something odd about your audio channels in this one, great content regardless
The silence spell makes the way of shadow good for being able to interrupt spell casters in a very fun way. My first campaign I played one and shut down the big magic-user baddie by casting silence and really messed with my DM
I really like this list as well as the part 2. I really like playing the kensei, and had already become a joke within my friends as I generally make the same character. Also it looks like you guys tested the class more than just look at the features
Important question: will you be covering the Critical Role cobalt monk next video?
They don't do homebrew or UA.
That’s not what I asked but ok
@@daultonl.608 Cobalt Soul is homebrew.
Maybe, maybe not. It’s the most official homebrew we’ve ever had so who know
@@daultonl.608, they did one separate video for the ranger one and only talked about the Echo Knight because it was in one of the newest books.
So they'll mostly not cover anything from critical role here.
"Monks are widely considered one of the weaker classes"
Me: HAHAHAHAHAHAH.....wait you're serious?
Yes. There is a strong community consensus that monks are among the weaker classes in the game.
Having played a couple of Monks, I agree with you. I found that I felt much more potent and useful as a Monk than with my Rogue, for example.
Reasoning:
ua-cam.com/video/Aaqq7iZUmMk/v-deo.html
(Treantmonk)
Hey! The stereo's fixed. THANK YOU. It is truly appreciated by a very small percentage of people.
Way of the Four Elements is highly customizable, and many of the options are absolutely fantastic. Monks have issues with flight, crowds, and enemies resistant to weapon
damage, and way of the Four Elements fixes all of those problems. However, there are only a handful of good options at any given tier,
which negates much of the customizability aspect, and the abilities
consume your Ki very quickly, competing with core monk options like Flurry of Blows. Also, because some of the abilities allow you to cast a spell you're vulnerable to counterspelling and issues like resistance
or immunity to spells.