Can Hornby's HM7000 solution address my frustrations with existing DCC sound and control operation?
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- After many years of DCC usage I've become increasingly frustrated with it's costs and limitations. If Hornby can deliver the HM7000 solution they announced as part of their 2023 launch, will that address my main frustrations with DCC today?
Links:
Hornby 2023 Launch Video: • Hornby 2023 Range Reve...
Hornby Magazine HM7000 Review and Demo:
www.keymodelwo...
Related video: • HM188: Hornby HM DCC i...
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It's a breath of fresh air...I am from an IT background and its painfully obvious DCC is pretty stagnant. A mobile phone is way more powerful than any other controller out there so why not use it ? All DCc controlers bar none look like they where designed 20 years ago or more, so we'll done Hornby...let's hope it works well and as expected. My only fear is Bluetooth can be a little troublesome , so let's hope the pairing/reconnection/maintaing a connection is all sorted and works well. 🤞. I run a Hornby select, so the Bluetooth dongle to allow HM7000 app to control all existing dcc trains (inc any NRMA compliant decoder !!) via a mobile is a no brainer..and based on reviews I'll try a decoder also...Great stuff..
Thanks Mark. Jury is out for me on Bluetooth as well which is why I was looking at WiFi for my own personal project. I guess we'll have to see how this scales effectively and handles the various failure scenarios. I'm willing to try it and see.
@@EuviRail Yeah, Bluetooth can be temperamental, some models of phone I'm sure will work well, and others will drop connection depending on which way the wind is blowing and the day of the week.. Keeping my fingers crossed 🤞🤞🤞
Also forgot to mention, I'm enjoying the Channel, keep up the great work.. 👍
@@markweightman3805 well z 21 runs off your phone great and some other things are great too.
I agree...I know many that use their phones instead and it really does look impressive when you can see more than 6 loco's shunting around a depot, by 6 operators
Hi, I agree 100% ! I use the NCE Power Cab for almost a decade and recently added a Wifi Control unit that gives me walk around capability with a smartphone using the 'Engine driver' App. Most of my, mainly Steam locomotive fleet is TTS equipped. Sound decoders + 110£ are out of the question. They simply are not worth it. When running a train I only use the steam sound, the whistles, the brake and light function if provided in the engine. All other sounds are just gadgets one rarely uses but pay a high price. One remark that stands out on US-forums is the use of a proper throttle and not a smartphone. That is always linked to expensive DCC-stations and even the new LCC system will not simplify the DCC use in general. (See TCS ). Blunami by Soundtraxx has already gone the same way Hornby is taking now. But with Hornby it is to applaud that the decoders are loadable from a free library and half price of the 'tsunami reworked to Blunami' by Soundtraxx. It is yet to discover all the details of the new Hornby decoders. The possibility of combining the two systems on a layout is a great feature and for newcomers the entry into 'quality' train control is a no brainer.
I'm looking forward to discover the App and TSX-decoders. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Phil. Yeah, I think we're all looking forward to seeing the new decoders and how they fare.
The HM7000 might just be my ticket into digital. I will have to see how simple the conversion is - I have a simple layout, but I use Atlas track which has a feeder track with the wires already attached.
I am a huge DCC user, as this was one of the things which gained my interest back into the hobby. I used to use Railmaster but despised it with all its ongoing issues (such as decreasing the loco speed itself, mouse pointer getting stuck on the speed slider and not being able to click off of it - this was repeated on multiple laptops new and old, different manufacturers etc) and config changes that were needed to get it running correctly (I work in IT and have enough of having to diagnose and repair issues during the day, when it's my leisure time I just want things to work). That paired with a lack of development (the software looks very aged) and a severe lack of viewing scope of CVV's outside of what Hornby think you should have had, I swapped it out.
Having said all of that however it was a good starter and introduction to DCC for the price. And it had one feature I loved - the ability to read CVV's and give you their current setting - none of this 'can you set the loco back to address 3 so I can use it' - just stick it on the programming track and read (and change if neccessary) the setting.
Due to the issues and loves outlined above, there was only one main option for me to change it to and that was the Roco Z21 along with an ipad which has one of the most controllable touch screens going. Not to mention the far sleeker rail mapping and point and signal control that this gives you - I'd never have trusted Railmaster with loco control and the control of that too!
With this new system from Hornby, I think it is a game charger and we will potentially see other manufacturers jumping on a similar idea. My hopes are that they put in the money and development it deserves (maybe this will happen given the introduction of the TT 120 which can use it too) and that it is as good as they are making it out to be. Personally I think I will give it a go as I really love gadgetry and the idea of programming sounds as easily as they have shown, and I also believe the third track / sound will make a huge difference also. I wouldn't rush to purchase it though - I think a year or so after it's launch would be the sensible option to allow most of its issues / bugs to be smoothed out.
I have a DR5000 unit which I link to the Z21 app on an iPad for point/route control and an iPhone for loco control. My grandkids control locos on the iPhone no problem. Give them a hand-held ‘dial’ based controller and they’re lost. Remote control Bluetooth or Wi-Fi on smart devices is the future, and I think Hornby are grasping it. BTW: I think they’ve got it right about TT120 as well, but I seriously dislike them cutting out the retailers.
Thanks Peter.Your point re. Gen Z and Gen Alpha being at home with a touch screen based device but struggling with a more mechanical based controller is so true. I'm a long way from a Gen Z but even I find most of today's handheld DCC controllers pretty hideous. On the TT:120 retailer issue, Hornby probably feel it's a moot point until they have a critical mass of product to sell. Even if you're not going to have product now, I believe you need to keep the retailers onside and make them part of it. Alienating your retailers is not a recipe for long term success.
@@EuviRail …..and unless Hornby have a brilliant ‘returns’ policy, how many people will buy into a product (an expensive product!) they have not seen and felt?
I'm not a sound for locomotives modeler but I am going to DCC, I have a Z21 system. I agree with you on the technology but manufacturers might think everyone is happy with the status quo so why rock the boat 🚢😉. I think Hornby might have a ticket to future modeling.
Thanks for that. I think a stir was needed alright. Even for non sound users there are values in the new approach.
Bluetooth has been the obvious solution for years, so credit to Hornby for finally taking it!
I've been running my garden railway with battery power in the locos and radio control from Peter Spoerer. These radio units aren't that reliable, so a proven standard like Bluetooth is appealing, especially as those dreadful clunky DCC control systems can be done away with.
If Hornby adds batteries for loco power, zero layout wiring, massively improved slow running, no track cleaning, and cheap control will become the norm.
Kudos to Hornby. With HM7000 and TT120 they're on the innovation trail at the moment. Great to see.
Thinking about it we already have batteries in locos already with Playtrains!
@@EuviRail they almost have it with the 'keep alive' capacitors.
Hopefully a small step to on-board battery power, then rusty rails everywhere with locos crawling over it at a scale 8mph!
@@chairmakerPete running batteries and hm7000 right now. It's fantastic.
@@rdrhouse fantastic - knew it had to be possible!
You can now paint your rails rust colour, and let the train wheels wear them shiny as per the prototype.
No more rail cleaning - ever - and running across those rusty points at a scale 5mph should be a joy.
You've got the final piece of the puzzle there... 👍
z21 is a great dcc system very modern control centre it works from wifi or a hand control system. its made by roco. it works with everything really. it works with all locos old and new easy to use.
something you've not touched upon with the HM7000 decoders is the way it uses bluetooth to run dc locos on DCC control. Taking this to a whole new level a few modellers including myself have been experimenting with battery powered locos and dumping the traditional power supply and track power.
With the HM7000 you can easily replace the traditional transformer based power system with an inboard battery and run the loco directly from a tablet or phone on DC or DCC and not have to worry about tedious track cleaning or reversing loop devices, or even the need for a programming track as the HM7000 can program the loco on the fly.
Is this the future of DCC control, well at an average of £65 for a user programmable sound decoder, it's the future for me.
Some folks mentioned this in the comments alright as a means as you say of getting away from the issue of dirty track, electrofrog points etc.
A lithium battery, charged from the rails should give very clean running - effectively a very large capacitor. Most locos won't exceed ~250mA current. Would probably need something like a Railroad loco with plenty of internal space to try out different batteries and leave room for some circuitry and a speaker for sound. Will be interesting to see what and when the manufacturers do on this front.
It's the only DCC system that's caught my attention and like you said, if it's able to work with other manufacturers, then I'll be like you, ticking the pay now button.
Thanks Robert. I'll certainly be checking it out on some Bachmann locos as well as my currently silent Hornby models.
@@EuviRail I also model Australian railways and I have some DCC stock too. So I'm thinking of trialling the system on them too
@@robertdblack7179 That's where it could get interesting in terms of adapting sound files if you're looking to do that.
@@EuviRail I'll certainly let you know what happens, and maybe you can inform your viewers.
@@robertdblack7179Thanks Robert, interesting time ahead.
I am extremely interested in hm7000 mainly because I am a digital neanderthal. I like the idea of it as it seems extremely simple for train control as I have a small layout and only want it to control my locomotives then I think it would be ideal. The price is also really good no need for expensive controller etc. It would also be excellent for those just starting in the hobby. All in all I think it's a winner from Hornby.
Reason I’ve stuck with DC……nobody seems to do in depth DCC start up n a mean an in depth review on DCC most UA-camrs just show how to connect to the loco it’s self so till someone does an in depth review I’ll stay with DC, will admit you seem to go in depth with alot of your reviews in which i think more UA-camrs should also do but don’t seem to ohh well keep up the great work
Thanks for that. Yeah, you do need to get into the detail if covering something like DCC. You'd need an accommodating local model shop who would loan you a number of DCC controllers to allow for a comparative review. I don't have that luxury unfortunately. If I decide to upgrade from my eLink+Railmaster in the future I'll certainly cover my criteria for selecting whatever I go with and will cover that system in detail.
Useful thoughts Euvi. I am generally optimistic that this is a step (and a big step) in the right direction. They seem to have covered most of the more common use-cases and the system appears quite well thought out. Re the bluetooth, I did try out the HM6000 and HM6010 system a few years ago. They have developed a ‘direct-to-device’ connection for older hardware (phones, tablets) and a mesh system for newer ones. Found it very robust and the connection proved stable. I’m assuming they have used and learned from that for the dcc version. Cost is the major improvement here, with it being easy to get sound now at a low cost and without a dcc base station at all. I too am watching this space. Great to see some innovation at last in this space.
Thanks for that and sharing your experiences with the HM6000. Will hopefully see the rubber hit the road on this in the coming month.
If this functions as they say it will, it’s literally the perfect solution for me. I run DCC and sound although due to price, most of mine are only TTS decoders which have been increasingly difficult to find. Also, my DCC controller is in the form of a Bachmann EZ command which is extremely basic, allowing control for only 9 locos and access to the first 9 functions of any decoder. This system solves a lot of problems for me.
If it is only taking power from the track then potentially other power sources could be looked at in the future such as an on board battery. I can see somebody else mentioned playtrains in the comments and I totally agree, if there was something more advanced where my track could be dead and use RC then I’d be totally up for that.
The other thing I’d like to see is the option for a user to load their own sounds on to the decoder. Hornby have a nice selection of sounds there but it is still fairly limited.
My concern is that either each loco would have to be limited to connecting to only one phone/tablet at a time which causes issues when running an exhibition layout, or you would potentially risk a spectator hijacking your layout.
I would hope that Hornby would allow for an open source community for people to contribute their own sound file creations. Controls would be needed but this would blow open the whole area of sound generation. You're point on someone taking over an exhibition layout is an interesting one. It's one to add to the list of use cases this system will need to handle so thanks for that.
I am really intrigued by this announcement. I've recently returned to the hobby and have a reasonable number of licis ready for my new layout. I am at the stage of planning the layout after just finishing the base board (a modest 11x4 foot space). I have not yet fitted any DCC chips or purchased my controller as I was waiting until the track plan was set - as I am at the stage of deciding on what decoder to go with, I feel I will hold off for a few months and start with hm7000 using power from my existing analogue/hm6000 controller.
Hopefully performance will be fine on my modest space and there will be no need for an expensive controller. Really excited to see what comes of this.
*Just to mirror your point in the video on technical development - when returning to the hobby at age 37 (not modelled since i was a child), I was surprised at how old and cumbersome the current setup was. This seems like a much overdue move in the right direction.
We can only go forward thankyou for the video
I have been a DCC user since 1997. I model American HO, HOn30 and Irish OO. My loco fleet isn't big so the £120 cost for a sound decoder isn't much of an issue, but yes I agree, If the cost was more like £70 a lot more people might join us. Over the years I have used Digitrax, NCE, Lenz and Uhlenbrok . Out of all of them the Digitrax does what I want . I would be interested in the Hornby unless it's going to be laptop based, then no, as I want something that does the job but can be out of the way.
Thanks for that. I think £60-£70 is probably a pivot point for taking sound alright. The ideal device to run this on will vary for different individuals and grades of user. I don't see anyone controlling an entire large layout with an iphone. Will need to see the practicality of different client devices for different users.
Looking forward to Hornby HM 7000 hopefully it will be a good system I like the idea of being able to programme on the main track.
@@EuviRail all my layouts are small, maybe 6 locos at most and all points are dc not dcc so if sounds became available i might be interested
@@dawdawes Sounds like the level that phone control should work Ok or maybe a small tablet / simless phone if you're likely to have to take a lot of calls.
@@EuviRail I would get cheap phones just for the train control
My layout is currently analogue only. When Hornby announced the HM7000, it certainly gained my interest. I am definitely interested in this control system, but, I am going to be cautious and wait before taking the plunge. Mainly so any teething troubles get ironed out first.
Wise approach Robert. With plenty of folks like myself willing to take the early adoption risk, there's no point in everyone jumping in and perhaps being disappointed. I'm expecting there will be at least some teething problems but hopefully nothing that can't be fixed in software.
@@EuviRail Would this control system make people like Legomanbiffo adopt it? If I was after digital sound locomotives, it would be his sound chips that I would use. Will there be a way for him to make his sound files available to work with the new system?
That is another reason why I'm going to be patient, to see how the rest of the industry adopts it.
Great video, I am very interested in this new HM7000, I would love to equip some of my locos with sound but cannot justify the price. I look forward to seeing your next video on this product.
Thanks for that.
I have a few Hornby Locos with sound on order! It will be interesting to see if the new decoders are all that we are hoping for!
I have too many sound Locos to change all of them. As I understand it to take advantage of the new innovations of HM 7000, then I will have to replace all my existing decoders.
You can mix and match with your legacy DCC locos of course. If you have a DCC controller that supports the HM7040 Bluetooth Dongle Cable, it will allow the App to control your legacy DCC locos as well. It's not compatible with my eLink controller so I couldn't test it.
Even though most of my over three hundred locos have sound, I am very interested in Hornby’s announced system
I think you qualify for the "Heavy DCC Sound Users Club" alright. 👍👍 While it won't recover investments already made in the past, it's the cost and convenience going forward that has to be of interest.
Great video, agree with you on the cost of current DCC systems, frankly extortionate and old technology. HM7000 has great potential, time will tell, I will pre-order some of the chips to see how good they are.
Thanks Andrew. Yeah, let's see how these TSX decoders check out.
Thank you Eugene. This is an interesting new development from Hornby, one to keep an eye and ear on. As you may be aware I've always been an outspoken critic of the cost of DCC sound decoders. If Hornby, who are not known for their cheap prices, can do, until recently that is, a sound decoder for around £35 then why the hell are the others charging around £120? The actual blank decoders cost only pennies to make, not pounds, pennies! The basic sound chips are so cheap they're put in throw-away greetings cards for heaven's sake! It's simply supply and demand and controlling the market by it being a specialised product with very few suppliers.The hobby has seen inflation at silly rates for years now, well before the economy collapsed more recently and DCC is just another example of the industry rinsing its hobbyists; probably because of demographics and the older age group of the average railway enthusiast who usually has more disposable income.
As for Bluetooth phone control, all I can say is that I have apps for video cameras, such as my GoPro Sessions 5 and it is usually troublesome and leaves an awful lot to be desired! If Hornby get this right it could take off. Regards Julian.
Thanks for that Julian. Yeah, the cost aspect for sound has bothered me for a long time. Your last point is on my hit list alright, as the compatibility, quality and lifecycle management of phone apps can be challenging and this is going to be a more complex app than many.
Its refreshing to see that Hornby are developing their sound capability and thinking ahead. I think I still prefer a dedicated controller rather than having to use the phone. Might mean you can't answer it when playing trains!! 😄 Real +ve is to sound files for the class 800 and 91 and 73 and down loadable sound files yes, much more usable. Does anyone know if the App is actually launched yet?
I can only see the existing Analog HM app on the Appstore right now. I expect a bit of a fanfare when it's posted and the first decoders are available.
you can use tablets and not put a sim card in them
This is interesting, and I would like to see reviews in due course. Currently, I don't use DCC. Using Bluetooth for control instead of a signal overlaid on the power supply seems a good idea that might reduce problems with track to loco contact. Most importantly for me would be whether or not the decoders fit easily into OO Terriers and other small tank locomotives.
Thanks Richard. Yeah, another comment on the support for the smaller locos. The sugar cube speaker is definitely more aimed at this end of the scale. This is a big segment for Hornby so I would hope they will factor in terms of the smaller sized decoders.
I think it's clear that this is an entry level low cost DCC alternative, I don't see heavily invested DCC modellers converting. That said with the availability of the dongle it will come down to the functionality of the HM|DCC app. Far more interesting to me is the price point of the sound fitted chips and the free sound files and the ability to change the sound file via Bluetooth, they also mentioned that each profile will have CV settings for the running characteristics for that class I believe. This alone (as long as the chips perform reasonably) is worth it! Ultimately using Bluetooth to control a train is welcome but how easy it is to pair, will it stay paired after a system restart and how responsive are the controls are all unknown but I'm choosing to be optimistic and looking forward to giving it a try.
Thanks for that. I'd echo that scalability and robustness are definitely concerns so I don't see anyone throwing out there DCC controller any time soon. As you say, if the decoders are up to scratch, you can still use them in regular DCC mode and you still have the ability to reflash them when you connect via Bluetooth. What's not to love?
It will be interesting to see how reliable Bluetooth turns out to be in this application, given my experience with bluetooth on a keyboard or mouse. That said, in headphones it tends to be better. I also wonder whether Hornby will have any better luck at keeping these new hybrid bluetooth/DCC chips in stock than it did for its old TTS chips given world chip shortages. And ultimately unless you go Hornby only, you're going to be a running a mix of bluetooth and non-bluetooth controlled locomotives, only some of which will have the supposed advantages of direct control.
I'd expect that Zimo and ESU will still be the best options if you want high quality sounds, but it should open up DCC sound to a wider market. I've an ESU controller, so programming ESU chips on the main track is nothing new - but the Hornby offering could be a better alternative to a lot of the US (or rebadged US) controllers which have been stuck in the past such as NCE, Digitrax and the Prodigy controllers.
Personally I prefer having a physical speed dial to control my trains rather than having to look down at a phone screen (so the ESU mobile controller which is an android device with a speed dial attached is great), but I can see the attraction of phones in the sense that there is a lot more innovation in phone user interfaces compared to the DCC controller market. Although once again, Roco's Z21 controller already offers a lot of these benefits unless you are sold on bluetooth.
The proof will be in the implementation - how smoothly bluetooth works, how available the chips are and how robust the software is.
Absolutely, there's a lot to be worked through here. At least you can dabble with some of their new decoders and the free App without any capital outlay on a controller. The z21 isn't cheap but it's probably the state of the art of the newer DCC controllers.
The other thing I'm interested in seeing is whether it sparks any reaction from ESU, Zimo etc. Probably won't do until it's further along. In fairness they've been milking it for a long time now. I suspect retailers and manufacturers have as well with a high mark up on decoders.
This is an absolute game changer, Ive always thought that DCC was an unnecessary complication and expense, but this makes sense. DC Power to the track and direct communication to the locomotive in a touch friendly format. Hornby seems to be leading the market again instead of playing catch-up.
My only concern is whether they’ve learnt the lesson of Zero1. A proprietary game changing development that ultimately stagnated and got overtaken by a more developed international standard, leaving legacy users struggling to get decoders.
Thanks Jonathan. The proprietary aspect is always a concern. Adoption needs to be strong to avoid being left high and dry.
I do sorta wonder if they quite get how much people like to be on their phones or have them available for other things while running stuff.
We will have to see how that clash plays out for people and what the app can do to mitigate it getting annoying. Naturally you could just run the layout on a cheap second device but I can see it getting it some flack if they haven't set everything up to enable the trains to keep running if the app is put to one side to take a phone call or answer a message. Simple things like this can cause frustration to some.
A friend of mine uses mobile phones for his exhibition layout. They are second hand and dedicated for just the layout no SIM inside
Yes, I share this concern and either a tablet or a simless phone are options. For the most basic user, their phone is probably Ok but I can't imagine controlling 10 locos on phone and having to take an urgent call!
Just thinking about the phone thing... I'm willing to bet I'm not unusual in having 1 older phone and 1 older tablet that could be used rather than the all singing dancing new phone.... Not to mention there's 2 x Kindle fire tablets the kids use, which may well be more than sufficient.....
It's a very interesting idea from Hornby, I have one of their elite controllers and after a couple of years the control dials started to play up. Hornby refuse to do anything about it so I got a DR5000 to replace it. From what I've read, it would seem an elite can act as a translator from a HM7000 system to a standard dcc system. I might try the HM7000 as it may give a use to my elite, I might use it as a back up or just for programming as that is not a strong point of the DR5000. It will be very interesting to compare the two.
Yes, there could be an interesting proposition for existing Elite owners here.
Another fantastic informative video thanks
Thanks Christopher
Hi Eugene, thanks for this video, obviously there are currently more questions than answers. The system does, as it stands, however, deliver a number advantages if considered in its entirety;
9sec power bank which could simplify point and crossing wiring, power issues,
UK based, focused on UK motive power prototypes,
The overall cost reduction is far greater, as it can utilise your existing technology and hardware both personal and modelling control, for both integration or transition.
It aims to resolve DCC power and command issues by having the track supply power only, with bluetooth delivering command.
The range of decoders indicates cost consciousness.
HM has been around since ZERO ONE, unfortunately ZERO ONE was to far ahead of it’s time, however HM7000 is perfectly timed, but are we ready.
For me it could be perfect, I haven’t bought a control system since ZERO ONE, choosing to buy track, rolling stock and motive power instead, while waiting for the right system to be developed, RailMaster was close, eclipsed only by TrainController, which delivers what I need.
The question is will HM7000 work with TrainController, without having to also buy a DCC Controller, namely the ECoS 50210 and system. Massively expensive when considering ~50 locomotives, points, signals and detection, not to mention sound.
Looking forward to following your progress on this very exciting development.
Best wishes
Thanks for that and the good points. The simplification of adding the power bank is a nice plus alright as are the different cavities for the sugar cube speaker and all the other benefits. Even sound users who are not Hornby advocates should see there is value for them here. I'm sure we'll see some iteration on the bluetooth side for scale and resiliency but if the decoders and sound files are good out the gap I'll be happy to start using them.
Quite exciting really, let the reviews begin
The more I read on what’s coming, the more I think it sounds right for me. I’ll be happier when they release the dongle and the app and I can test it myself.
From Hornby's most recent podcast it sounds like we don't have much longer to wait for the App and decoders at least.
If you are getting problems with the DCC which makes the trains run a bit iffy. If you are, are you using a Hornby track connector. That has components at track level which affect the transmission to the track.
I always use soldered connections for DCC so no issues there. It's the sound decoder costs, lack of flexibility and tedious programming track operations that are my main sources of frustration. £600-£700 in controller and programmer costs could address two of these but not the decoder costs hence why I'm keen to see if HM7000 can address all 3 without any capital outlay. Should know more in the coming month..
I am very keen on this new Bluetooth system. I am delaying any orders until I have seen and heard the system running on someone's own layout. Martin. (Thailand)
I'll be testing a couple of the new decoders and the App as soon as Hornby release it. I'm particularly interested in re-flashing the decoders for different locos as this will save me a few bob.
Interesting development Hornby, sound & Digi decoders seem fair price at £60 - £70 and as there's some cross over with other manuf with same Locos sharing sound file could be good option to go for an DCC Ready Loco and Plonk in a Hornby Blue Tooth Sound Decoder. Class 50 / 66 from Acc/Scale could be a candidate.
They most definitely could be. There may be some CV optimisation required but to have these locos under App control with a lower cost decoder is appealing.
like you I'm a heavy DCC user, what bothers me more with steam is the fitting of the chip and speaker in existing Hornby range. the chip will be bigger and the speaker will have to be placed somewhere around the roof of the tender or in a gap in the weight. does this mean at some point Hornby will release all their locos with a better tender? Also on smaller locos eg the Pecketts and Rocket will the chip fit? I think it's a great idea but have Hornby thought it through. I won't be buying it.
Thanks for sharing. For all but on of the steam models I have I've gone for pre-fitted DCC sound as I've dreaded the installation on these models. I put a SoundTrax chip in the tender of a Bachmann MOD 3000 alright. Better sound provision is required on these models. The different sound chamber options they are including with the sugar cube speakers should help here but in general I find the tenders a bit flimsy so that for bringing this up.
Thanks, Eugene, for echoing many of my own thoughts. Returning to the hobby in the last few years after four decades away, I’m still putting the layout together but have concentrated on buying locos and MUs first in case supply from China suddenly cuts off. I’ve quickly amassed a fleet of over 60 (many secondhand, inc two Hornby Dublo from my first layout) so was beginning to think I need to opt for DCC instead of analogue. I’ve delayed wiring the layout while pondering this decision. However, I have a Gaugemaster GMC-TS for three tracks so am wondering whether I can use HM7000 to run some DCC locos on one section while reserving the other sections for analogue, then upgrade more locos over time as funds permit. I might start with the Hornby 08 TXS R30301 when that’s released in Q4 and see how I get on.
Thanks for that. It sounds like a good time for you to consider your configuration for the long haul with HM7000 as part of it.
Interesting! I await developments. I was a Hornby Railmaster user but finally became disillusioned with the flakey software so moved to Roco Z21 and associated phone app plus iTrain. It all works flawlessly but it won't stop me using the Hornby Bluetooth decoders and app as well as my Z21 should they prove to be good. The jury is out.
The jury is currently in session right now as I test this out. So far so good to be fair. More anon.
@@EuviRail Excellent! Look forward to hearing the verdict. Lets hope the judge is not wearing a black cap! 😁
It’s interested and keeping an eye on this . I am an analogue user . I thought one of the major advantages of this might be that I could run an HM7000 Decoder sound equipped model on my otherwise analogue layout , simply by turning the controller to max dc output and then operating the loco via my phone . Bluetooth obviously connects the phone device directly to decoder without going through DCC controller and track . While this may still be possible by using a Hornby P9100 power supply , it appears that it may not be possible on existing analogue controllers because of PWM . So I will wait and see . Does seem a step ahead and certainly a lower cost entry to DCC . We do need a lot more detail though . Just exactly what are the parameters and what will it work with . It’s early days but too many questions remain.
Thanks for that. We'll have to see exactly what configurations are supported here.
The drawback with DCC is that you can only programme a loco by interrupting the power to the track. It is not possible to read CVs when the loco is running. Consequently there isn't any way for a loco to tell the command station where it is on the track. Whoever devised DCC must have thought about it. The silicon chips of that time would not have permitted a more complex system than the DCC that has been devised. I think there is a need for a "Zero 2" system as you indicate. Bluetooth does obviate the need to transmit instructions to the loco via the track circuit. But the drawback is the huge cost of the HM7000 decoder! Thanls for sharing your thoughts on this subject.
Yes, you can read CVs whilst an engine is running. It is called Program on Main. Hornby controllers will not do it as they are rubbish, you need something decent like an Ecos 50210
@@BearsTrains Programming on the main is a decoder function. The Elite supports it, but eLink and select do not.
Thanks for that. I'm sure the originators of DCC would take a very different approach today given the low cost options available such as WiFi or Bluetooth or they may have come up with much faster data rates and enhanced R/W capabilities via the track (using the DSP and mixed signal capabilities of today's silicon). If the NMRA were to turn around with an enhanced DCC spec that included the latter and could be built into new decoders that would still be backwards compatible we'd have an interesting debate on our hands! The DCC controller vendors would love it of course.
@@EuviRail I have had to give up purchasing decoders for new additions to the fleet. They are just not worth the money! I think it would be better if DCC locos had like a SIM or micro SD slot that you could just put a chip in when you wanted to run it. The drawback with DCC as it is is that every single loco in your collection must be chipped, and that's way too expensive!
@@AllensTrains 100% agree. The notion of the equivalent of a microSD slot or the like to allow you to swap decoders easily between locos and then reflash them with the correct sound files has to be a desired endpoint. Irish Railway Models (aka Accurascale) put an easily removeable roof on their Irish A Class locos to allow the DCC chip to be removed easily was a start and I use it to swap decoders across different liveries of the is loco.
I’ve just got into DCC and with it being very expensive for the 110 pound plus decoders I’m definitely interested in this new mid range from hornby I will be pre ordering a couple of these new sound decoders for some of my dcc ready locomotives, I have some tts sound locomotives and the sounds are ok not the best so looking forward to hearing what it sounds like or if any improvements are with the sugar cube speakers, I’ll will follow closely for future updates, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this
Yeah, TTS has it's limitations and I believe Hornby have acknowledged that. The extra channel, improved fidelity sound recordings and better steam loco synchronisation should see improved performance on the new TSX chips.
I also see that there is likely to be a charge to cover the Bluetooth infrastructure at Hornby. Bluetooth is not free and a subscription will probably need to become the norm to cover this cost at Hornby
Yeah, that worries me as the usage level picks up.
The other question is how does this all fit in with their earlier DC Bluetooth set up? What about control of lights, point control and other things separate from the locomotive. Will that be via Bluetooth as well? How goes all this fit together? Is their a white paper or mags manual or website with a FAQ that we can read so we can map out what to do and either retrofit an existing layout or plan the wiring of a new one?
I haven't heard any mention of controlling other elements and as you say, specific technical information is still very scant. That's disappointing for the decoders in particular given they are demonstrating them already. They need to produce something equivalent to ESU's Lok5 spec.
each signal or point would have it's own basic decoder and be controlled by the user or if the "blue sky" comment by George Waller gets developed possibly a system like train controller where trains are actually sent in real time to any location on your layout by the controller.
Just starting in O and it looks very interesting to me. I am assuming that the decoders will manage with a small O shunter. It would be good if the Hornby BT extension to the NMRA standard could be open. Would also be good if the software could be interface with external (USB) devices as I am not keen on a touchscreen interface.
Thanks Nick, You bring up a good point in relation to 0 gauge in terms of the potential power capability of the new decoders. The TTS decoders were extremely limited and I've blown two of them through pulling large loads at high speeds. I sincerely hope the max current specs for the new decoders are more in line with a Loksound5 than a TTS.
I'm pretty sure that someone with IT skills would be able to work out what is happening at the Bluetooth end. If the big players sense revenue opportunities, they will have teams devoted to do the reverse engineering on this. Hornby should licence the technology, saves everyone else the bother of development and research and would give Hornby some extra revenue too.
@@pierre-de-standing ESU and Loksound are in the firing line here so it'll be interesting to see how they respond.
As much stick Hornby seem to get in the modelling world, you have to acknowledge they're the only ones who have tried to make DCC accessible from a cost perspective (albeit that doesn't seem true for their models) but also from ease of use controllers. While many say they're basic, sure, but how many 'features' do you need to have and use? Hopefully HM7000 bridges that gap by removing the hardware element for the controller and the decoders seem reasonably priced
I've been thankful to Hornby for eLink+Railmaster providing the lowest entry point for DCC that is still very functional.
Definitely interested and will be watching closely over next 12 months and will take up if positive responses from people like yourself. I used to use Hornby railmaster - but couldnt get it to work with Microsoft Surface Pro and windows 10 and no longer have old enough tech to use it. So have switched to Gaugemaster Prodigy which works well enough but as you said lacks all the bells and whistles Railmaster could do.
Thanks Shane. Yeah, I use an old self build PC to run Railmaster. It's just a pity Hornby walked away from it. I know I'm eventually going to have to take the plunge with a newer system. I'm hoping HM7000 can give me enough to limp along for another year or two and see where things stand then.
If you want a taste of the future buy a Hornby Playtrains set . I did for my grandson ...its fun ! the sound is very crude however it gives you a taste of Bluetooth control from a very basic controller . But its the freedom it gives you to control a layout without the clunky controllers ...im sold, cant wait to convert my first locos . Also you don't need to invest in new layout you use existing infrastructure.
I never thought Playtrains would come up in the comments for this but that's a great point so thanks for sharing. 👍
the future is here David, i already run HM7000 on batteries.
Like yourself I'm interested to see what this brings. My initial reaction is that it will make operating the locos a lot easier on the app than with convention DCC.
Putting off chipping any locos until this new system is released.
Yeah, I've suspended all decoder spending ahead of getting my hands on some of the new TSX decoders.
The key to this entire HM platform is the HM7040. How will it operate? Can it take control of my Digitrax controller? What function does it give me running my older DCC chips? How does this look if I add a couple of Bluetooth locomotives as well? I hope this puts a rocket up Zimo and ESU and makes them upgrade their chip programming interfaces. Perhaps me may finally see a non proprietary interface that finally allows reprogramming of all decoders on the main track. I don’t want to swap out and throw out the chips and sound files I already have. Some of them are unique. Nor is Individual Bluetooth control of locomotives a game changer IMO and will have its disadvantages - so that’s not a biggie. What is a biggie is better and easier configuration. Will this finally prod the other chip manufacturers to lift their game on that front?
Yeah, my starting point will be the convenience and flexibility. I may still end up actually controlling the locos under DCC as it will all be under the one interface for the entire fleet as the legacy dongle isn't due to work with my eLink controller. Still, the ability to R/W CVs on the fly and reflash the sound on a more reasonably priced decoder is a good starting point. ESU and Zimo needed a shake up alright.
I am an absolute beginner. Limited electronic skills. I can solder. Now the important question, has all the sections of track to be fitted with droppers and wired into a "Bus wire" because of lockdown Brexit the cost in DCC control systems has become Expensive.
Subscribed and 🔔
Hi Derek, I use the rail connectors that have wires pre-soldered to them and get away with spacing them every 4-5 feet onto my main power bus under the layout. I haven't bothered wiring all of my sidings so when I switch from the siding to the mainline, the power on my siding will go and the locomotive will go offline on the App. Unless you want the lighting to stay on or want to shunt on the siding then this shouldn't be a problem. Of course, when the loco is offline on the App you can't do anything else with it like changing the CVs or the sound profile.
HM7000 looks what is needed although not relevant for me. That is because although I can operate DCC with a gaugemaster and DPDT switches I don't often use it. Its not a shunting layout. I don't have point motors or uncouplers. My idea of fun is for trains to go round and round or backwards and forwards. When I switch sound on, I soon tire of it. So only point is a set of lighted carriages. Still for people into DCC, HM7000 looks like a step change but like everyone else I've heard what it can do but not used it.
Two critics I use to hear about DCC, are the outdated technology and the overpriced electronics, not just the sound decoders. I'm a non-sound DCC user myself, and also some kind of computer geek, and to see the price of DCC equipment, decoders and command station, just follow the inflation rate while having near to zero innovations, and clearly some stupid limitations. For instance, if you need to enter a 6 (if not 7) figure locomotive number into a DCC system, something casually found anywhere in Europe, you can't. You have to find a trick to enter your DB 056.241-3 number, your BR 56 102, your FS gr. 940.022 or your SNCF 475 134 diesel into a four figures format you can use without forgetting which number your locomotive is on your controller... I need a spreadsheet to remember what number I use on my engines outside UK period 3 (1923-1947) !
Also, you can have a very decent entry-level laptop for 400 €, an electronic device that is far more sophisticated than any DCC control station at the same price, if not higher. How can they sell electronic hardware the same price today, corrected from inflation, as it was in the early 2000 ? I made the calculation and my MRC prodigy express (same system as the one sold under the Gaugemaster brand) costs the same price today, in constant money, as I paid for it in 2006 ! (GBP 275 retail price, I paid it the equivalent of GBP 120 in 2006) I had just seen an electronic calculator for teens in high school sold in my local supermarket for one third of it's price which is more sophisticated than this item !
Here, we have a direct control with bluetooth, ditching the control station, limiting the sophistication to the decoder. For the rest, a simple 12v DC basic transformer for the power is enough, you don't even need to have a regulator on it. On paper, it's simply amazing. If they do an accessory decoder for point motors, that would certainly becomes my first buy from them. I'm following that, it's something new, and interesting towards price. If it's reliable, that would really become a game changer. I hope so !
Thanks for that Oliver. I feel your frustration. I wouldn't be throwing out my existing DCC kit any time soon but I'm hoping I can shift all my future decoder purchases and take it from there. Hornby claim to have been working on this for 5 years now so I hope that's reflected in the quality of the product.
On the face of it, the Hornby HM7000 announcement for DCC control and sound is well over due. I believe DCC is being held back by the NMRA which is predominantly US orientated. For example, why are we stuck with a maximum 4 digit loco address when many UK loco id's can be 5 digits?
Bluetooth offers benefits for DCC but, I suspect Hornby will make their version proprietry meaning it will only work with their equipment. I suspect their new HM7000 chips will have limited functionality and not feature things such as ABC braking and drive lock etc. I also suspect they will close the price gap with ESU \ Zimo etc as their product gets established.
Thanks for that. The loco ID limitation is a real pain alright but just another example of how out of date DCC actually is. I can't see the TXS decoders matching the ESU and Zimo models alright but I do hope they hit the most critical areas. It will be interesting to see what they retail at from sources other than Hornby as there has historically been a 20-40% difference in TTS pricing. These are high margin items so plenty of scope for discounting.
Thank you for this well presented and thought provoking video. I too am very interested in these new products from Hornby. Hopefully it will be a gamechanger in that you can download free sound files onto blank decoders and presumably change them to another sound for a different loco should you wish. The deciding factor for me would be could I use it with my existing NCE Powercab which controls my existing DCC fitted locos? I have approximately 80 locos/units (all diesel and electric), approximately 40 with ESU Loksound and Zimo and 40 with TTS. I think TTS were good especially when fitted with upgraded speakers. But getting good motor control was something of a challenge, requiring a lot of fine tuning of CVs. But I did get them all working well. If it wasn't for Hornby TTS I wouldn't have got my entire fleet sound fitted. So I applaud Hornby for this new innovation - fingers crossed it can be used with existing systems. And good motor control is so important too. Cheers. Vivian
Thanks Vivian. I not too different from you in terms of no. locos and a good representation of TTS which despite it's shortcomings, I've been a fan off. The TSX decoders promise so much more so fingers crossed Hornby get these right and address the motor control limitations of their predecessors.
I believe that Marklin digital is the best. The multi protocol function of the system also seems to be great. The MM2,Dcc, and M4/MFX protocols allow for excellency in control and function. I like esu cause it’s so well established and the support is excellence
Great video, thanks. My initial thought on Bluetooth is how does one run two or more loco’s at the same time and quickly switch between them? Doesn’t Bluetooth need to pair up each time you connect with a delay in connecting/pairing or will the app and your phone allow multiple pairings at the same time? Just thinking of the rigmarole I go through every time I connect a peripheral to my phone/tablet/pc etc even if I’ve connected or paired the two device previously.
Though we haven't seen the details they will be using Bluetooth Mesh - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_mesh_networking. How well it all performs in reality is another matter of course.
You are bang on the price differential of sound chip to loco price is scandalous! I really hope Hornby disrupt the whole space a force a price levelling across the market. Also and hopefully adding benefits like accessory control points etc and make the whole thing as simple as Apple do in their walled garden!
Well, I want to see you do the INSTALL TEST
I have seen 4 videos and in all of them the chip would plug in to the Engines, but the Hornby Chip
was LARGER than the one it replaced and the Body of most Engines could NOT be installed back
on the base after the chip was installed
The reason is that the Hornby NEXT18 form factor is too large and unfortunately this socket seems to be the type used on many smaller locos. Will cover off in a short video.
I use Digitrax with esu decoders, no trouble in 12 years.
Sounds very interesting. My main concern is what happens to the Bluetooth connection if there is a momentary break in power pickup and you do not have the (optional) stay alive fitted?
Yeah, there are lots of failure use cases like this. The question is how many will be addressed in the first iteration. At least software upgrades will be easy to apply.
I made up my mind many moons ago to stop buying new railway models and equipment due to the irresponsible cost! I'm not alone and there are many other modellers who have reacted the same.
The new HM7K from Hornby could provide an answer or at least point the way towards the much improved system needed. You can bet your bottom $ that the DCC manufacturers will be watching with interest!
We can only wait and see what Hornby are prepared to do with their HM7K...it looks better than HM7000!
The drawbacks at the moment would be the lack of Android support - to utilise the blue tooth functions, And of course adding the sound profiles at the moment seemingly require an iPhone.
You could use the decoders in the regular DCC methods but getting sound you'd need to borrow an iPhone!
I have high hopes for this range, hopefully Hornby haven't cheaped out and recycled the TTS sound files, but I suspect they will have...
Yeah, I didn't want to get into it in this video but heavier users will want to run this on a tablet and Android support will be important. Also, the minimum OS Rls supported will be important as well. There is no point if your phone or tablet can't run this stuff after 3 years!
Have I missed something, thought the app wasn't available, but will be for both apple and android.. And you can only do sound via IPhone.. Where is that on Hornby website..??
@@markweightman3805 it's not on a website, the app just doesn't appear (or didn't at the time) on any android platforms.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My Samsung phone running android sends and receives Bluetooth.
If the dongle will work with my NCE Powercab , the decoders are reliable , and also the app. Then I would be interested as I like the feature of downloading the sound file which beats Economi Soundtraxx as it has more sound files available.
I shall wait to see reviews once the system is out.
Thanks for that. It kind of pulls the rug from under the SoundTraxx Econami decoders alright.
How do we find out if the HM7040 dongle is compatible with what non hornby DCC controller we already have?
I have sent an email to Hornby asking that question but have yet to have a reply.
Hi l have just watched your video on hornby 21
Pin 7000 and as l have just purchased a Bachmann class 66 what are your thoughts about it in the class 66 l totally agree about the cost of sound decoders like the ESU V5 loksound which if I went down that route would be £115.00 like l have before but now this is in the mix and been able to use my iPad as the controller sounds good my dcc controller is a Bachmann Dynamis but it only has 20 function buttons so having looked at your numbers video about the 21 pin version and the dimensions being similar to ESU but for half the price sounds good
Best wishes
Kev Beighton Parkway Sheffield
Hi Kev, I used a TXS decoder in a Bachmann Class 66 - check back through my videos and you'll find it. I found it absolutely fine and as a big fan of Bluetooth control from my phone, I was well pleased with it. As well as the cost saving, the ability to reprogram for another loco type is huge if you're swapping locos on your layout a lot like I do.
HM7000 looks extremely interesting. However there are two flags that I would need to see develop over time.
The first would be sound profiles, and the ability to upload custom profiles. I did email Hornby about thia, and the inferrnce seemed to be that this would not be available at launch. Could also be an issue with app store verification. But if this was considered in future, then I think the loksound range would have serious competition on their hands. Electronic compoments are expensive, but even then... its a hard justification to purchase £120 chips which cost more than a arduino or computer ram.
The second is Hornby themselves. Whilst they are normally innovators in new technology, it is rare for them to be market leaders or have long-term stability. Hornby Zero, Live steam, the ORIGINAL spec sapphire decoders (with fuel persistance), Railmaster detection system, and now TTS being phased out. The select and elite whilst relatively ok controllers, also lack adaptability and the early cheaper entry pricepoints.
Will be watching this carefully, Hornby need to go all-in and have support for at least up to 2032.
Thanks for that and I'd share all these concerns. Phone Apps are great but lifecycle support incl. future and older OS support is not trivial to manage.
Hi, I am using the same as you the e link running a large garden railway. i am going to look at the HM7000 as long as it is compatible with the e-link I do have locomotive on order with Hornby the P 2 and the Black 5 with Sound and Smoke. so I am hoping that they will work on the e-link as I am not changing over to any other DCC controllers as e -ling works well for me to. Ron
Thanks Ron. Another eLink man like myself. I'm hoping the HM7000 can take some of the pressure off my system - such as handling all of the newer locos equipped with Bluetooth enabled decoders.
@@EuviRail yes thank you for coming back to me I think e-link is a good operating controller. and with most of my locos sound it works well on the garden railway. and as you know you can bring locos up on the screen and see the diagram. have subscribed. regards Rons Garden Railway.
@@RonsGardenRailway Welcome to the channel Ron. 👍👍
I to am a Railmaster user and I would be interested to know if the HM7000 has the record/merge function which I frequently use with the Railmaster.
We should know soon enough Paul as my decoders are supposed to have shipped now so the App can't be too far behind.
Just wish it had been around before the amount of investment in current dcc equipment. 2 forms of control on one layout and switching between the 2 is not for me.
Try a radio control set, I've tried to get local manufacturers in this country, One a well known creator of control boards for points etc etc. Answer we can't get the components,And that was 8 years ago. A simple switch or button box of say 24 channels would be a miniscule price compared with other stuff. I made my own, never a glitch..never a breakdown. Not rocket science. And a big market for someone to produce.
well to be honest its not the blue tooth that interests me its the programable sound decoder if they have made it compatible with all the other dcc manufacturers ,digitkiejs , gaugemaster, roco etc they are on to a winner which i believe they have ,they will sell thousands upon thousands if they haven't then hornby would have missed the best opportunity in model railway history ...............tony
Thanks Tony. I think it will be the same for a lot of folks. If Hornby get the decoder right they'll be on to a winner.
as a new person to the hobby, seeing the price of dcc controllers makes me really question weather I should get into this hobby or wait. And I'm surprised the option to ruin trains from a laptop, phone or tablet hasn't become more standard. Even lego has apps to control certain lego sets. From an outsiders perspective, I see many opportunities and options to use or try out. and I feel model trains needs to upgrade interms of technology.
This has definitely spiked my interest as it seem to be a more affordable.
100%
to be honest z21 starter i would say is better starter than the hornby stuff
Yes, by a long way
@@BearsTrains now with the starter great thing is can always upgrade to the next level black version when your more advanced in model railways which is i think great. now started does have reduced amount things you can do with for sure but i would argue it gives new modellers a better idea of dcc then anything hornby could make. hornby dcc controllers are for the most part antiquated and very i think poor in terms build quality. if you are starting in dc i would say get a gauge master 2 track controller for 135 euros or little bit more its not bad and is easy to set up and plus doesn't mess your models up like the hornby ones. but hopefully my info helps people. want everyone to experience this hobby in the best possible way.
I wouldn't go near the other Hornby controllers myself. The z21 is probably one of the most uptodate (if not the most) DCC systems out there.
@@EuviRail maybe a video to do is looking at the z21 range and what it offers and the advantages and disadvantages of each series of there set ups just thought 😀.
@@James-ih4gz Hi James, unfortunately I don't have the luxury of a local model shop who would let me play with one for a while and it isn't on my purchasing list right now. There are a few videos already up there on z21 that I haven't gone through yet so I don't know whether they're doing a critical review like would do or an upbeat one where everything is great though in fairness the z21 looks pretty good on paper at least.
want to see something more frustrating than DCC, try O-scale, still no real standard yet
Thanks Bill, I can only imagine. Bluetooth control is definitely a lot easier to work with.
Hornby trying to copy what MRC did a few years back, a DC, DCC, remote control loco
And radio control was the way forward 30 years ago. With the modern channel splitters it's easy as pie to run everything from a single switch or button box. Radio control is cheap and one off. Why is Rail modeling 30 years behind in this and other areas. Rule Brittania
I must admit, I find the cost and faff of DCC unattractive. It is obviously a clunky and outdated system. I have a huge fleet of locos and would prefer to spend my money on rolling stock that over-priced, obsolete tech. There is definitely a market to adapt low cost, modern tech. The HM6000 is a really good example of that (though mine seems to have died recently). Even then, the Bluetooth interfacing feels a bit Alpha!
Thanks for commenting Daniel. I can 100% see how anyone could be put off investing in DCC. I like the sound and loco control but boy do you pay for it right now.
Lets be honest, DCC suppliers are ripping off their customers, as is the norm in this hobby. Any savvy electronic engineer can see from the module complexity and price tags it does not warrant these costs. I am gobsmacked by how much DCC systems must cost for many of the serious modellers in this hobby or on UA-cam.
100% - Thanks
Absolutely exposed on about the controllers looking like they were 40 years old. These two lines displays are something from the 80s I've tried several DCC controllers and I think they're dreadful
Thanks for sharing Steve.
No wonder the boss went...again, From a sinking ship. There quality control must be none existant. There chips don't fit tt120, there old controllers where crap, and there sort of new HM Stuff is abysmal. Money at all costs...Now the Chinese have total control of the market , They can quote any price they want, and look at some of the rubbish the sending here.. DONT BUY ANY MORE UNTIL THEY IMPROVE AND COSTS FALL...DO NOT BUY...Rule Brittania
It's a very positive step and I entirely agree that more innovation is required. I actually said as much to Accurascale on RMWeb recently that they should consider sidestepping ESU/Zimo as it was a good 1/3rd if not more of the cost of their locos.