I believe Johns barrels are button rifled. If so, then it's not unusual for them to open up after you get up around 3000 rounds. Cut rifled barrels will last closer to 5000 rounds. But one variable is how many high pressure rounds make up that number. When I first started shooting highpower I used to believe all that crap about scrubbing a barrel out, and soaking barrels to get the copper fouling out. When I stopped shooting I was Marine Corps Double Distinguished and a High Master. I got to the point were I made sure my chamber, and bcg was clean. I just pushed patches with Hoppes through the barrel to get powder fouling out, patched it dry, and didn't use a bore brush. Or worry about copper fouling. The gun always shot tighter groups, and the zero's were consistent.
After reading this comment I revisited this video and could really tell the attention to detail when editing. Also, the edits are near seamless, which is probably why I didn't notice them much until now. Thanks for all the hard work!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench no kidding, started a channel (not this one, not that kind of person lol) and the amount of work to edit even simple videos is incredible. Not to mention upload times in places that dont have the best internet... like alaska lol
This series has been very beneficial for me. I shoot NRA Highpower AR Tactical with .223 and getting to 2750 fps with 77 GR SMK, just like the black hills mk262, is essential for success. With Johnny’s data I was able to eliminate a lot of powders and develop a good load.
Thank you for your kindness, selflessness and hard work for absolutely free. I started watching one of your videos last night. Normally when i hear people talking at a bench i disagree with most others concepts and click the back button an go on searching. I just about did this last night. Instead i thought i will hang on for another minute. HA!! Now i am on a crusade to watch all of your videos several times. You are a very intelligent and reasonable fella. The pleasure is all mine.
Is it going to be a huge problem if I’m using LC .223 brass instead of 5.56? I’m thinking of loading it from 24gr at .2 increments up to 25.2gr and checking for signs of overpressure.
I was just thinking the same thing lol. More easy numbers for me is with my 30-06 my best load after brass is bumped back with my comparator it reads 2.026 and my length to ojive is 2.626
Pushing your range out was a great idea. 2000-MR and 2520 look like the winners for practical applications in service rifle. Taking into account the positioning sling tension, natural point of aim and Marksmanship skill. Those powders @200 are performers and relay winners. You done did a good thing, Johnny! It is stuff like this that saves people work and gives a foundation on where to start. Dave.
This was the first video of yours I have watched. Of note, I’ve been handloading myself for just over 30 years. You picked an excellent group of powders to test thus far. One aspect that I think is extremely important in any semi automatic/gas operated rifle is cleanliness. Some of those powders are very “dirty“ while others, like the Ramshot TAC, are extremely clean burning when compared to something like Winchester 748 or Hodgdon 335. While the latter two are extremely accurate in the 5.56 caliber in general, their tendency to foul the action prematurely makes them an unacceptable option for me personally. Another very clean, reliable, and temperature insensitive powder you may want to consider in this lineup is Hodgdon Benchmark. I have had excellent results with this in the AR-15 platform and recently renewed my supply with another 8 pounds. Good luck and keep up the great work! (I subscribed.)
Thanks for watching! I've always struggled with that on my channel. People want to know what the cleanest burning powders are but I've not found a good way to test that and make an interesting video out of it. We're usually shooting 25-50 rounds in my videos and it's just not enough to clearly pick the dirty from the clean. I'll come up with a test protocol one of these days.
~2000 rounds through the barrel. Random thought that I am having fun with. over 2000 rounds through the barrel. ~70 grains of lead ... there is over 20 pounds of lead in his backyard.
Very valuable info for me as a HP service rifle competitor. The take away that I get is all the powders tested can produce HM scores, and the 77 SMK just likes velocities at 2650 to 2700 to give the edge in X count at 200 and 300 yards where most use the mag length 77 for rapid strings. Great series. You earned a sub.
I'm 200 rounds into loading ammo ( and I guess I will stay that way for awhile) (thanks Covid). This is exactly what I needed to see how you build your own loads. Thanks man!!!
I have just recently discovered this channel. Its great! I have been binge watching for these past two or three weeks. I really appreciate all that work you put in to these videos. I haven't reloaded in the past 9 years. I am definitely getting back to it.
Love this series and all your videos. You have given me the confidence to start reloading. I just used your Brownell affiliate link to order the Lee kit. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks, brother. I'm glad I am helping get you started! The affiliate link orders help a ton. Thank you so much. If your order is the one that came in today, the commission on that was enough to pay for 77gr SMKs for the next video and it didn't cost you a dime! It really adds up quick and I appreciate you guys for it.
Johnny's Reloading Bench No problem, glad I can help the channel out. I’ll make sure every order I place will be done using your links. I can’t wait to get the rest of everything to get started.
Guess Grandpa was right should have left that BLC/2 on the shelf. As always a great video. Your a big help knowing what works and what don't thanks for what you do and have a Merry Christmas.
Temperatures will be in single digits late this weekend Johnny. Here in Lexington, Ky area there calling for the weather you've been looking for on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday mornings all look really good for the single digit cold weather you've been waiting on. ...I'll be sitting in a warm house waiting to see what results you get! Favorite channel! Thanks
Pretty mild pressure signs with the AR Comp load, with basically zero temp sensitivity and 10 feet per second to spare, and excellent accuracy. Makes me wonder if you backed the load down by a tenth to 22.8, would you see zero pressure signs and still make it to ~2750? This was the most promising load to me, as I find temp sensitivity to be a deal breaker - if I dump 3 magazines and then leave a round sit in the chamber for a few minutes, I don't want to blow my face off.
Gotta tell ya .... You have a very good series of videos now. You have learned well since the beginning! I will not offer any advice but will advise that I am doing similar load development with 69 grain SMK and Lapua with an oal of 2.250. I want a little more muzzle speed for longer range targets. Most impressed, keep up the good work, maybe a powder company will pick you up! Merry Christmas to you and family.
I have watched all of these videos and really appreciate the time spent. I am working on my own MK262 clones and have used this as an awesome reference point.
You wouldn't believe how true this is. I really need to go through and categorize them by cartridge, then find an efficient way to store them. IT'S A PRICELESS HISTORICAL ARCHIVE!
Great series! I understand this wouldn’t fit in the current MK12 262 clone series, but It would be interesting to see you do a workup on Berger 77 gr. OTM. Hope you’re feeling better Johnny and have a Merry Christmas, sir.
With the parameters of cloning the performance of MK262, IMR 2520 looks like the best choice. However, the further you shoot any of those choices the worse accuracy is going to suffer because of the high SD's. Looking back at all of your data, 8208XBR loaded to 2700fps looks like the best load. Giving up 50fps is insignificant to get a single digit SD's and sub 1/2 MOA. I suspect if you reshoot that load out to 600 yards you'll find it is the single best accuracy load. Also, from an statistics standpoint, you'd really need to shoot a significant number of multiple shot groups to find the true SD, five shots just isn't enough. You might also consider a Labradar; as a diagnostic tool it is vastly superior to every other retail available chronograph. including the magnetospeed. I love your channel, keep up the good work.
Just stumbled across this series of videos after doing years of experimenting myself. During my testing I used IVI brass because it’s more readily available in Canada. It seems to have a slightly smaller case capacity but is more consistent than LC brass during my testing. I found that 22.6gr of 8208XBR gave me 2750fps with single digit SD’s through my 18” BA barrel. No signs of pressure and seemingly immune to temperature. My only gripe is dispensing extruded powder is a major pain in the ass when loading large lots of ammo.
I have been playing with the 6.5 creedmore .. Had to come back to here watch again to do my 556 loads. Fantastic video btw. Thanks for your time in doing these.
As always Johnny, a great video! I DO use Vihtavuori N540 for some 5.56/.223 loads, my current accuracy load for 69gr SMK is 26.5gr N540 in Lapua brass and gives me 2900fps from my 18" SPR profile AR15Performance.com barrel. I've also had outstanding velocity and accuracy with N540 in my Grendel loads across the boards for bullets of different weights. My current accuracy load for the Grendel is 29.5gr N540 in Alexander Arms brass with the 123gr Hornady ELD-M bullet and that is giving me 2550fps out of a 20" ARP barrel. Both loads were worked up to in my guns ONLY on days that ranged from 65-95 degrees, PLEASE WORK UP TO THEM, they are max/over-max by Vihtavuori listed loads.
For your viewers who are curious, I'm getting 2870 fps average from a 20" mil-spec barrel from 20 rounds of Black Hills Mk262. My clone load with 24.3 gr of Varget is getting 2840 fps average (that's consistent from 53 to 90 degree weather). I'll be testing 24.5 gr this weekend, and also testing the rest of my Black Hills Mk262 to get another average, and I'll post it up. Thanks for this series!
Not as much as you think. Nothing like the crunch, hard core super long range OCD single digit SD re-loaders deal with. But one important factor, no excessive pressure signs. Brass looks the same as the Black Hills brass.
The Hornady book shows Power Pro Varmint pushing an 80 gr. pill to 2800 fps. I don't think you should have a problem getting the velocity. Merry Christmas bro, keep up the good work.
@johnny’s Reloading Bench. Thank you for all the amazing content. Your channel, this series in particular, has really made me want to get into reloading. I’m not sure how many views the video would get but I feel like it would be cool to see you take the AA2520 a bit farther tune the load for your rifle. Maybe mess with the seating depth by stretching it out a smidge to see if you could get square within the node for this cartridge for your barrel. I’d like to see just how lights out you could make this loading perform. Thank you again for all the amazing content.
I tried the AA2520 using 25.0 gr and got 2750 fps out of a Colt 16" M4 barrel. That didn't seem right so I shot it in my 20" .223 wild and got 2900 fps and it was burning holes where the firing pin struck the primer. Way too hot. It's worth noting that the Western Powders edition 8.0 shows the recommended max load at 25.5 gr. My goto load for the 77 SMK is TAC 24.3. Slightly slower than the Mk 262, but more accurate that the faster load. It's good to have more than one recipe.
I really enjoyed that 77 grain slug fest. Stoked that you were able to take it back to 200 yards. Any chance you will be able to keep the spring growth back on the trees and such? It would be a great addition to have as standard on the range. Just a thought here... I think showing the differences between 100 and 200 yards as it pertains to group size/reliable data collection would be very interesting indeed. Like maybe line up the paper targets so that the shots pass through both the 100 and 200 yard distance while giving you information on each. Does a 2" high flyer at 100yards always mean that bullet will pass through the 200yard target at 4" high? Or do the shots wobble and rotate in flight? Does a "bad" shot get worse then you would expect the further it flies? This would also be interesting to do in concert with detailed volocity readings. Also, I struggle with knowing what powders are/aren't extruded or ball powders. I don't think I'm alone in that either, might be handy if you designated it's form when you post them on screen. Even if it's just like (E) or (B) next to the names of each. Anyway, those were just some things on my mind this morning after watching this video. Thank you so much. Merry Christmas and happy holidays to you good Sir. Cheers
Anchor Bait only problem with lining up 2 targets back to back is you put in a element that is a physical object (paper) witch may not seem like a problem but with a 100yrd span a minor deflection can = a large deflection down range. Also as far as distinguishing what powder is what it’s very easy, you have mainly 3 types of powder. Extruded looks like pencil lead broke into pieces Ball/Spherical is uniform and well round or spherical shape. Flake powder will look like little miniature hole punch flakes thin and flat. I do recall he has videos earlier in this series where he shows a close up of the BH ammo powder and try’s to see what it could be and compares it to other powders.
Steve Griffith I wonder how tissue paper would effect the bullet. But that also brings up an interesting point, by how much do objects such as paper effect bullet flight, impact and volocity. I appreciate your explanation of powders. Perhaps I didn't word my question correctly. I understand and can identify the powder types visually well enough. Although I understand some people might not. But I just have a difficult time knowing the names and numbers of each. Like just by seeing the container or reading their names on a spreadsheet. J doesn't always dump some out beforehand or visually show them or mention their individual physical forms. And that's the only reason I suggested adding identifiers (E) (B) to the names when in print form. Do you know of an easy way to determine what a given powder is simply by the name? Other then looking each one up or by memorizing every manufacturers product number?
That sounds like fun. I might try. I would have to walk up and down the range 300 times to get them lined up just right, but it would make for an interesting test! Not a bad idea to indicate extruded and ball powders somehow in the videos. I did give a really up-close view of the powders in video 1!
No I just research the powder by name and get the info. Then work up loads to see what shoot the best for my rifle/pistol and elevation as well as the sub zero temps we frequently get. As far as testing how much a bullet is deflected after hitting paper. Ehh can’t see a purpose behind it other than just knowing. I think JRB has a lot more fires to put out to be wasting time with that. I like what he’s doing.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench You could use a bore sight. Line it up at 200 center paper then walk back to 100 and position that target so the laser is in the center. Shouldn't be too hard!
I wish you would have done a video on the most accurate loads . Not the ones that matched the velocity. I really enjoyed this series . You shot some amazing groups . Thank you for all the hard work .
BTW, three things about the CFE223:- (1) It likes to be above 50,000 psi -- the higher the pressures the better it burns. (2) It HATES to be compressed -- anytime you compress it the consistency goes out the window. (3) 24.3 gr is the maximum load with the 77 gr as published by Hodgdon, I load it at 24.5 gr and it is PHENOMENALLY ACCURATE at that loading shooting sub-half MOA groups all day from a SIG MCX which has by no means a match grade barrel. I get 2,600 fps (+- ~20 ES) out of the 16" MCX. -- I like to keep things simple and I only use two powders for everything I do. CFE223 for rifles, Longshot for Pistols. I also only use ONE kind of bullet for each caliber to keep things simple:- 9mm 115 gr -- 6.0 gr Longshot @ 1200 fps (4.13" HK P7M8/13) 40 SRW 135 gr -- 11.5 gr Longshot @ 1250~1480 fps (5.2" Glock 35, 3.2" PPS) 45 ACP 185 gr [JSWC] -- 7.5 gr Longshot @ 950 fps (5.0" Baer 1911) 223 Rem 77gr -- 24.5 gr CFE223 @ 2600~2750 fps (16.5" MCX, 18" M15, 20" M4E1, etc) 308 Win 155gr [Sierra #2156] -- 51 gr CFE223 @ 2850~2950 fps (17.7" PTR, 20" M5E1, 24" M5E1, etc) -- 2 powders and 5 bullets, along with CCI#300, #500, BR-2 and BR-4 primers is already more than I really want to stock. But, it is the minimum that I get away with!
Nice series. Next up- seating depth testing? You may eliminate your pressure signs by getting closer to mag length. With the SMK’s being less sensitive to jump compared to others, accuracy likely won’t be impacted. May test cannelure vs non as well? Watch the playback. I think wind played a part in the last group. Good series
I love your channel. With that being said, would you consider a load development series on the 62 grain Hornady BTHP? Midsouth shooters supply is the only place I know has them. They are quite the inexpensive "match" bullet. You could set the target velocity at 3100 FPS and see what gives you the most accurate load. 3100 FPS is the velocity of M855. I would love to see a sub MOA 62 gain round with good MV.
I realize this video is a couple years old but temperature isn't the only weather related factor. Humidity actually plays a role and higher humidities cause bullet speeds to rise and lower to drop.
I wish the powder companies would come up with an "energy density" chart that we could use along with burn rate to characterize powders. I think 8208xbr belongs in a group with others like AR-Comp and maybe the "high energy" VV 500-series powders. They pack a lot of punch per grain and can get away from you quickly if you're not careful. It's a different discussion than burn rate and we don't have much to go on.
I have Ramshot X-Terminator, which is the same powder as Accurate 2230. I ruled it out because it is a little fast-burning for this application, but I might try it eventually! I just got a fresh box of 500 77gr Match Kings to test with, so we've got enough bullets to test everything!
Another interesting thing I've found with doing this same test was lapua brass something about it but I can't get it to show pressure signs.. an awesome video maybe to try these again and do tests with like LC lapua starline and nosler brass
I'd like to see H335 (SMP-735) in action... My Lyman 50th says the max for both the 77 and 80 grain Sierra HPBT is 25 grains-2850 FPS- 2.260 OAL... They used a 24" barrel though. I think you should still be able to get close to the 2750 FPS mark with an 18" barrel, right? Just got done with the series so far. Awesome stuff.
I very much enjoy your videos Johnny. Thank you for taking the time and effort to make and post them! Have you been able to find any Reloder-16 and if so, have you considered including it in the MK262 clone video? Alliant's print manual list it as slower than Reloder-15, but faster than PP2000MR. It is also an extruded powder with the same characteristics as AR-Comp. If its density is right, it may be just the ticket for velocity, accuracy, and temperature insensitivity.
Along the same line of thought, RL-23 may do the same for the 6.5 CM. The video with RL-26 was very interesting and I was a bit surprised. With so many new powders and burn rate charts not keeping up well, I find the Western Powders chart to be useful to manually write in the new powders and keep them "organized" in burn rate bands to help compare them. Happy New Year! Thanks again for your interesting videos.
From the Marine Corps precision weapons shop, the load was changed and it’s now AB-39 (Mk-316) Federal brass Federal 210 primer 42.0 grains of IMR-4064 175 grain Sierra BTHP match From a retired Marine.
Have you seen the video on TATV Canada on the RSI chamber pressure tester? With some of the loads you work on it might be worth looking at. It would also be interesting to have a closer idea of actual pressures.
Great video. 8208 is one of my go to powders. Varget is not one of my favorite for 223, but as slow as it burns it might work. But you may run out of case capacity before you get the velocity youre looking for. I wish Hodgdon would make a short cut version of Varget.
Great series I would really like to see the CFE on the lower velocity that gave you the best group shot at 200 yards and see if it would shoot a half inch MOA or smaller group at 200 yards
...great series of videos! I'm hoping start hand loading to clone the .223 69grn SMK for my 1:9 twist bolt which shoots them 1MoA from 100 to 900 yards. Is there an approximate ratio for the powder loads from a 77 to 69grn. Looking for around 2800 fps muzzle velocity?!
Howz it Johnny...im a hardcore hunter from the big island of Hawaii ...im a reloader and hunt mouflon sheep weekly to feed my family .really dig your reloading feedback ,i hunt in temps that range from 32-80 degrees with an ar15 18" 1/8 twist.....keep up the awesome work brother ...cheers aaaaaaaaaaa@loha
So about the "clean" barrel and finding that happy place between bare bore bright-metal and carbon cake choke nasty for those sweet copper coated sugar pills. Please share your own thoughts on the subject, I would love to hear them. I wonder, do they have bullets made specifically to foul the bore to equalibrium quickly after cleaning or break-in? Are bullets sold that do this better then others? How much "better" then a standard 55gr fmj if at all? In my brain I'm seeing like an annealed soft copper bullet that's even a bit overbore then the standard size for its given caliber. Maybe even a longer shank or baring surface. Could this be done with a stiff rod (thank you I'll be here all week) with an attached copper slug of sorts on barrings and allowed to rotate in and with the rifling as it's pulled. Im assuming this would be less effective then firing actual rounds because it would be nearly impossible to mimmick the actual forces applied by the projectile to the walls of the barrel in normal live fire operations. Maybe one could submerge or fill just the barrel with solution and electroplate or deposit copper by electrically or chemically doing so. I could see using puddy to seal the muzzle and chamber and running electrodes through center bore. Although to be honest that does sound a bit.... Envolved and elaborate imo. Haha :) I want to create a way to CONSISTENTLY maintain copper equalibrium using intentional and repeatable processes with realistic expectations using avaliable components. I understand it's waaay too much for 99.9% of shooters. But that's what's compelling to me. I see alot of unknowns and areas of research that haven't been fully approached and investigated. Modern production of barrels and components and the manufacturing processes that they are made with are amazing. It allows us to more precisely analyze data, correct and attach specific changes to work smarter... Faster. Cheers
I am really curios as to why Velocity matters that much? When loading for accuracy most people don't concern themselves with velocity. I like the results on the ball powders proving what we knew already that they are temp sensitive. Great work. Thumbs up!
The more shots in your group, the bigger the group will be. A 1.047 MOA 10 shot group translates to a .78 MOA 5 shot group. Or just about what you wanted. The factory ammo was shooting where it is supposed to be.
That is just flat good shooting, all the way around!...I know you are trying to match or clone MK 262, but my stupid question is, Why shoot a 77 grain bullet, when you can shoot a different caliber to do better for long range? 6.5 Grendel with 100 grain @ 2770fps or 120 grain @ 2550fps without much more recoil... You have those in your training videos with great results. Thanks for the great videos and teaching
I shoot factory Black Hills out of my BCM factory upper and it always has sharp ejector marks. I shot Hornady Black 75 grain .223 and the brass came out beautiful. Other than ejector swipes, what other pressure signs should I look for in the Black Hills brass? The BH is marked WCC on the headstamp.
Great stuff as always. Did I hear you say awhile back you would be having some bench mats coming out soon or were you just kidding around ? I'm about done building a new bench and somehow or another it's turned into a piece o furniture and now I don't want to beat it up.
Why not both? A pound of powder only gets you ~300 shots in 223, so you'll eventually need more! Might as well switch things up occasionally and try different things.
I would love to see you take a load that shot really well then re-test that load again in a new video. I have done this multiple times and good loads do not necessarily shoot well 2nd time around..
![What's this inside this Buck Knife?! - [CUSTOM BUCK 110]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/R4lNC5q5CBA/mqdefault.jpg)
I believe Johns barrels are button rifled. If so, then it's not unusual for them to open up after you get up around 3000 rounds. Cut rifled barrels will last closer to 5000 rounds. But one variable is how many high pressure rounds make up that number.
When I first started shooting highpower I used to believe all that crap about scrubbing a barrel out, and soaking barrels to get the copper fouling out. When I stopped shooting I was Marine Corps Double Distinguished and a High Master. I got to the point were I made sure my chamber, and bcg was clean. I just pushed patches with Hoppes through the barrel to get powder fouling out, patched it dry, and didn't use a bore brush. Or worry about copper fouling. The gun always shot tighter groups, and the zero's were consistent.
Excellent editing skills! I can’t get enough of these videos.
Thanks, brother! Editing these videos takes a ton of time so I really appreciate your comment.
After reading this comment I revisited this video and could really tell the attention to detail when editing. Also, the edits are near seamless, which is probably why I didn't notice them much until now. Thanks for all the hard work!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench no kidding, started a channel (not this one, not that kind of person lol) and the amount of work to edit even simple videos is incredible. Not to mention upload times in places that dont have the best internet... like alaska lol
This series has been very beneficial for me. I shoot NRA Highpower AR Tactical with .223 and getting to 2750 fps with 77 GR SMK, just like the black hills mk262, is essential for success. With Johnny’s data I was able to eliminate a lot of powders and develop a good load.
You using ar comp for your load ?
@@bradd8383Using Varget.
Same. Thanks Johnny!
@@brianmills6818 how long is your barrel?
Thank you for your kindness, selflessness and hard work for absolutely free.
I started watching one of your videos last night. Normally when i hear people talking at a bench i disagree with most others concepts and click the back button an go on searching. I just about did this last night. Instead i thought i will hang on for another minute.
HA!! Now i am on a crusade to watch all of your videos several times.
You are a very intelligent and reasonable fella. The pleasure is all mine.
Thanks! I do my best to "show my work" rather than bloviate. Glad to have you on board.
25.20 gr. of AA2520? What kind of conspiracy is this? Easy to remember at least!
I load mine with 25.20gr of AA2520 at 2.2520 OAL. My velocity is 2520fps from 14.5” barrel 🤯
Is it going to be a huge problem if I’m using LC .223 brass instead of 5.56?
I’m thinking of loading it from 24gr at .2 increments up to 25.2gr and checking for signs of overpressure.
@@wormydog1724
HMM, I Wonder what the velocities would look like out of a25.2" barrel?😂
I was just thinking the same thing lol. More easy numbers for me is with my 30-06 my best load after brass is bumped back with my comparator it reads 2.026 and my length to ojive is 2.626
Pushing your range out was a great idea. 2000-MR and 2520 look like the winners for practical applications in service rifle. Taking into account the positioning sling tension, natural point of aim and Marksmanship skill. Those powders @200 are performers and relay winners. You done did a good thing, Johnny! It is stuff like this that saves people work and gives a foundation on where to start. Dave.
Thor's Axe777 - Exactly. I will soon start working up some 77gn. SMK's and will start with AA2520 thanks to the efforts of this series.
@@az2vet698 How did your efforts go? I'm wanting to start my own loading also
This was the first video of yours I have watched. Of note, I’ve been handloading myself for just over 30 years. You picked an excellent group of powders to test thus far. One aspect that I think is extremely important in any semi automatic/gas operated rifle is cleanliness. Some of those powders are very “dirty“ while others, like the Ramshot TAC, are extremely clean burning when compared to something like Winchester 748 or Hodgdon 335. While the latter two are extremely accurate in the 5.56 caliber in general, their tendency to foul the action prematurely makes them an unacceptable option for me personally. Another very clean, reliable, and temperature insensitive powder you may want to consider in this lineup is Hodgdon Benchmark. I have had excellent results with this in the AR-15 platform and recently renewed my supply with another 8 pounds.
Good luck and keep up the great work! (I subscribed.)
Thanks for watching! I've always struggled with that on my channel. People want to know what the cleanest burning powders are but I've not found a good way to test that and make an interesting video out of it. We're usually shooting 25-50 rounds in my videos and it's just not enough to clearly pick the dirty from the clean. I'll come up with a test protocol one of these days.
25.2 grains of AA2520 in a lake city case worked miracles in my 20 inch wilson barrel. It lasted about 8000 rounds before i tossed it.
~2000 rounds through the barrel. Random thought that I am having fun with.
over 2000 rounds through the barrel. ~70 grains of lead ... there is over 20 pounds of lead in his backyard.
Very valuable info for me as a HP service rifle competitor. The take away that I get is all the powders tested can produce HM scores, and the 77 SMK just likes velocities at 2650 to 2700 to give the edge in X count at 200 and 300 yards where most use the mag length 77 for rapid strings. Great series. You earned a sub.
I'm 200 rounds into loading ammo ( and I guess I will stay that way for awhile) (thanks Covid). This is exactly what I needed to see how you build your own loads. Thanks man!!!
I have just recently discovered this channel. Its great! I have been binge watching for these past two or three weeks. I really appreciate all that work you put in to these videos. I haven't reloaded in the past 9 years. I am definitely getting back to it.
Love this series and all your videos. You have given me the confidence to start reloading. I just used your Brownell affiliate link to order the Lee kit. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks, brother. I'm glad I am helping get you started! The affiliate link orders help a ton. Thank you so much. If your order is the one that came in today, the commission on that was enough to pay for 77gr SMKs for the next video and it didn't cost you a dime! It really adds up quick and I appreciate you guys for it.
Johnny's Reloading Bench No problem, glad I can help the channel out. I’ll make sure every order I place will be done using your links. I can’t wait to get the rest of everything to get started.
Guess Grandpa was right should have left that BLC/2 on the shelf. As always a great video. Your a big help knowing what works and what don't thanks for what you do and have a Merry Christmas.
Another great video Johnny. I like the format of this video. Shoot talk about it and shoot the next group. Keep up the good work.
Temperatures will be in single digits late this weekend Johnny. Here in Lexington, Ky area there calling for the weather you've been looking for on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday mornings all look really good for the single digit cold weather you've been waiting on. ...I'll be sitting in a warm house waiting to see what results you get! Favorite channel! Thanks
Pretty mild pressure signs with the AR Comp load, with basically zero temp sensitivity and 10 feet per second to spare, and excellent accuracy. Makes me wonder if you backed the load down by a tenth to 22.8, would you see zero pressure signs and still make it to ~2750? This was the most promising load to me, as I find temp sensitivity to be a deal breaker - if I dump 3 magazines and then leave a round sit in the chamber for a few minutes, I don't want to blow my face off.
Gotta tell ya .... You have a very good series of videos now. You have learned well since the beginning! I will not offer any advice but will advise that I am doing similar load development with 69 grain SMK and Lapua with an oal of 2.250. I want a little more muzzle speed for longer range targets. Most impressed, keep up the good work, maybe a powder company will pick you up! Merry Christmas to you and family.
man i hate my mentor got burned out, maybe Johnny will get some new cartridges and get pumped again.
I have watched all of these videos and really appreciate the time spent. I am working on my own MK262 clones and have used this as an awesome reference point.
I imagine the other side of your reloading room is stacked to the ceiling with poster board targets.
You wouldn't believe how true this is. I really need to go through and categorize them by cartridge, then find an efficient way to store them. IT'S A PRICELESS HISTORICAL ARCHIVE!
Johnny's Reloading Bench dude do a small video or part of video on how you make em!! Please
Johnny's Reloading Bench take a picture and store them electronically
Great video I wish I had a 200 yard range at my house lol keep up the good work
Man, you are stepping up your game and have come a long way in your videos. Keep up the great work.
Great series! I understand this wouldn’t fit in the current MK12 262 clone series, but It would be interesting to see you do a workup on Berger 77 gr. OTM. Hope you’re feeling better Johnny and have a Merry Christmas, sir.
With the parameters of cloning the performance of MK262, IMR 2520 looks like the best choice. However, the further you shoot any of those choices the worse accuracy is going to suffer because of the high SD's. Looking back at all of your data, 8208XBR loaded to 2700fps looks like the best load. Giving up 50fps is insignificant to get a single digit SD's and sub 1/2 MOA. I suspect if you reshoot that load out to 600 yards you'll find it is the single best accuracy load. Also, from an statistics standpoint, you'd really need to shoot a significant number of multiple shot groups to find the true SD, five shots just isn't enough. You might also consider a Labradar; as a diagnostic tool it is vastly superior to every other retail available chronograph. including the magnetospeed.
I love your channel, keep up the good work.
Just stumbled across this series of videos after doing years of experimenting myself. During my testing I used IVI brass because it’s more readily available in Canada. It seems to have a slightly smaller case capacity but is more consistent than LC brass during my testing. I found that 22.6gr of 8208XBR gave me 2750fps with single digit SD’s through my 18” BA barrel. No signs of pressure and seemingly immune to temperature. My only gripe is dispensing extruded powder is a major pain in the ass when loading large lots of ammo.
So much great info and Johnny didn’t blow his face off. Now that is what I call a win-win.
This was such a great video! Keep up the good work brother!
Just when I start to like your 6.5 creedmoor videos better you go and do something like this and bring me right back again!
I have been playing with the 6.5 creedmore .. Had to come back to here watch again to do my 556 loads. Fantastic video btw. Thanks for your time in doing these.
Johnny. This channel is simply amazing. Well done videos loaded with information! Keep it up!
As always Johnny, a great video! I DO use Vihtavuori N540 for some 5.56/.223 loads, my current accuracy load for 69gr SMK is 26.5gr N540 in Lapua brass and gives me 2900fps from my 18" SPR profile AR15Performance.com barrel. I've also had outstanding velocity and accuracy with N540 in my Grendel loads across the boards for bullets of different weights. My current accuracy load for the Grendel is 29.5gr N540 in Alexander Arms brass with the 123gr Hornady ELD-M bullet and that is giving me 2550fps out of a 20" ARP barrel. Both loads were worked up to in my guns ONLY on days that ranged from 65-95 degrees, PLEASE WORK UP TO THEM, they are max/over-max by Vihtavuori listed loads.
For your viewers who are curious, I'm getting 2870 fps average from a 20" mil-spec barrel from 20 rounds of Black Hills Mk262. My clone load with 24.3 gr of Varget is getting 2840 fps average (that's consistent from 53 to 90 degree weather). I'll be testing 24.5 gr this weekend, and also testing the rest of my Black Hills Mk262 to get another average, and I'll post it up. Thanks for this series!
Not as much as you think. Nothing like the crunch, hard core super long range OCD single digit SD re-loaders deal with. But one important factor, no excessive pressure signs. Brass looks the same as the Black Hills brass.
Villamor78 probably differences between your lot of varget and JRB’s. I know a guy who can push 25gr with his lot of Varget
Ive found your videos a few days ago and watched way too many. This is like a encyclopedia of reloading data.
Awesome stuff Johnny! Loving this series!
The Hornady book shows Power Pro Varmint pushing an 80 gr. pill to 2800 fps. I don't think you should have a problem getting the velocity. Merry Christmas bro, keep up the good work.
I didn't see that! I'm looking forward to trying it out in 223. Coming soon!
That's probably with a 24" bbl which is insanely long for a 223.
Black B well, for an ar, maby not for a bolt gun.
Black B
That is with a 20 in. barrel. 1 in 7 twist
Interesting. Sounds pretty potent for 223 then. What velocity should be expected for a 16"?
@johnny’s Reloading Bench. Thank you for all the amazing content. Your channel, this series in particular, has really made me want to get into reloading. I’m not sure how many views the video would get but I feel like it would be cool to see you take the AA2520 a bit farther tune the load for your rifle. Maybe mess with the seating depth by stretching it out a smidge to see if you could get square within the node for this cartridge for your barrel. I’d like to see just how lights out you could make this loading perform. Thank you again for all the amazing content.
I tried the AA2520 using 25.0 gr and got 2750 fps out of a Colt 16" M4 barrel. That didn't seem right so I shot it in my 20" .223 wild and got 2900 fps and it was burning holes where the firing pin struck the primer. Way too hot. It's worth noting that the Western Powders edition 8.0 shows the recommended max load at 25.5 gr. My goto load for the 77 SMK is TAC 24.3. Slightly slower than the Mk 262, but more accurate that the faster load. It's good to have more than one recipe.
Love all that you do! I'll be following you along on your journey- I've learned a lot from this series alone! Cant wait to see Episode 12!
Thank you for all your hard work!
Thanks!
Two years after the fact, I am shooting Everglades 75 gr w/cannelure. 25 gr Varget and getting sub MOA at 100 yds. Really happy with them.
Excellent video, I hope to see more videos showing where your at with your best loads at the end of each series or middle on the longer series.
I really enjoyed that 77 grain slug fest. Stoked that you were able to take it back to 200 yards. Any chance you will be able to keep the spring growth back on the trees and such? It would be a great addition to have as standard on the range. Just a thought here... I think showing the differences between 100 and 200 yards as it pertains to group size/reliable data collection would be very interesting indeed. Like maybe line up the paper targets so that the shots pass through both the 100 and 200 yard distance while giving you information on each. Does a 2" high flyer at 100yards always mean that bullet will pass through the 200yard target at 4" high? Or do the shots wobble and rotate in flight? Does a "bad" shot get worse then you would expect the further it flies? This would also be interesting to do in concert with detailed volocity readings. Also, I struggle with knowing what powders are/aren't extruded or ball powders. I don't think I'm alone in that either, might be handy if you designated it's form when you post them on screen. Even if it's just like (E) or (B) next to the names of each. Anyway, those were just some things on my mind this morning after watching this video. Thank you so much. Merry Christmas and happy holidays to you good Sir. Cheers
Anchor Bait only problem with lining up 2 targets back to back is you put in a element that is a physical object (paper) witch may not seem like a problem but with a 100yrd span a minor deflection can = a large deflection down range. Also as far as distinguishing what powder is what it’s very easy, you have mainly 3 types of powder. Extruded looks like pencil lead broke into pieces
Ball/Spherical is uniform and well round or spherical shape.
Flake powder will look like little miniature hole punch flakes thin and flat. I do recall he has videos earlier in this series where he shows a close up of the BH ammo powder and try’s to see what it could be and compares it to other powders.
Steve Griffith I wonder how tissue paper would effect the bullet. But that also brings up an interesting point, by how much do objects such as paper effect bullet flight, impact and volocity. I appreciate your explanation of powders. Perhaps I didn't word my question correctly. I understand and can identify the powder types visually well enough. Although I understand some people might not. But I just have a difficult time knowing the names and numbers of each. Like just by seeing the container or reading their names on a spreadsheet. J doesn't always dump some out beforehand or visually show them or mention their individual physical forms. And that's the only reason I suggested adding identifiers (E) (B) to the names when in print form. Do you know of an easy way to determine what a given powder is simply by the name? Other then looking each one up or by memorizing every manufacturers product number?
That sounds like fun. I might try. I would have to walk up and down the range 300 times to get them lined up just right, but it would make for an interesting test! Not a bad idea to indicate extruded and ball powders somehow in the videos. I did give a really up-close view of the powders in video 1!
No I just research the powder by name and get the info. Then work up loads to see what shoot the best for my rifle/pistol and elevation as well as the sub zero temps we frequently get.
As far as testing how much a bullet is deflected after hitting paper. Ehh can’t see a purpose behind it other than just knowing. I think JRB has a lot more fires to put out to be wasting time with that. I like what he’s doing.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench You could use a bore sight. Line it up at 200 center paper then walk back to 100 and position that target so the laser is in the center. Shouldn't be too hard!
I wish you would have done a video on the most accurate loads . Not the ones that matched the velocity. I really enjoyed this series . You shot some amazing groups . Thank you for all the hard work .
BTW, three things about the CFE223:-
(1) It likes to be above 50,000 psi -- the higher the pressures the better it burns.
(2) It HATES to be compressed -- anytime you compress it the consistency goes out the window.
(3) 24.3 gr is the maximum load with the 77 gr as published by Hodgdon, I load it at 24.5 gr and it is PHENOMENALLY ACCURATE at that loading shooting sub-half MOA groups all day from a SIG MCX which has by no means a match grade barrel. I get 2,600 fps (+- ~20 ES) out of the 16" MCX.
--
I like to keep things simple and I only use two powders for everything I do. CFE223 for rifles, Longshot for Pistols. I also only use ONE kind of bullet for each caliber to keep things simple:-
9mm 115 gr -- 6.0 gr Longshot @ 1200 fps (4.13" HK P7M8/13)
40 SRW 135 gr -- 11.5 gr Longshot @ 1250~1480 fps (5.2" Glock 35, 3.2" PPS)
45 ACP 185 gr [JSWC] -- 7.5 gr Longshot @ 950 fps (5.0" Baer 1911)
223 Rem 77gr -- 24.5 gr CFE223 @ 2600~2750 fps (16.5" MCX, 18" M15, 20" M4E1, etc)
308 Win 155gr [Sierra #2156] -- 51 gr CFE223 @ 2850~2950 fps (17.7" PTR, 20" M5E1, 24" M5E1, etc)
--
2 powders and 5 bullets, along with CCI#300, #500, BR-2 and BR-4 primers is already more than I really want to stock. But, it is the minimum that I get away with!
Your awesome brother,,I appreciate your hard work and sharing it with us shooters..you've helped me a lot with my own load development..
Awesome video! I absolutely love your channel, and I am following this series closely. Thank you!
This series got me to binge watch and subscribe.
Just watched this for a second time: this was truly a great video.
BLC2 is more meant for 55 to 69 grain projectiles i've had good luck with Sierra tipped matching 69gr at 24 to 25 grains of powder
What speed do you guys get with the 77gr mk262 in a 16" barrel?
Nice series. Next up- seating depth testing? You may eliminate your pressure signs by getting closer to mag length. With the SMK’s being less sensitive to jump compared to others, accuracy likely won’t be impacted. May test cannelure vs non as well?
Watch the playback. I think wind played a part in the last group.
Good series
I love your channel. With that being said, would you consider a load development series on the 62 grain Hornady BTHP?
Midsouth shooters supply is the only place I know has them. They are quite the inexpensive "match" bullet. You could set the target velocity at 3100 FPS and see what gives you the most accurate load. 3100 FPS is the velocity of M855. I would love to see a sub MOA 62 gain round with good MV.
rdsii64 look on RMR bullets. They have them sometimes.
I realize this video is a couple years old but temperature isn't the only weather related factor. Humidity actually plays a role and higher humidities cause bullet speeds to rise and lower to drop.
I started using 8208xbr for a new 308 AR10 and I see pressure signs a little bit earlier than I expect, also.
I wish the powder companies would come up with an "energy density" chart that we could use along with burn rate to characterize powders. I think 8208xbr belongs in a group with others like AR-Comp and maybe the "high energy" VV 500-series powders. They pack a lot of punch per grain and can get away from you quickly if you're not careful. It's a different discussion than burn rate and we don't have much to go on.
Nice video and great format...
By far best information out here in cyber land
Don't overlook the fact on the CFE-223 load, at 200yd it put 40% (4 shots) through the same hole.
I'd like to see N135 & N140 tested as well.
I'd be interested in seeing A-2230. I've never tried it personally, but it was made for the 223 cartridge.
I have Ramshot X-Terminator, which is the same powder as Accurate 2230. I ruled it out because it is a little fast-burning for this application, but I might try it eventually! I just got a fresh box of 500 77gr Match Kings to test with, so we've got enough bullets to test everything!
You need to make a batch of "Ed's Red" for your cleaning needs. Great stuff!
Youre a king for this. Thank you for your contribution to us!!
Another interesting thing I've found with doing this same test was lapua brass something about it but I can't get it to show pressure signs.. an awesome video maybe to try these again and do tests with like LC lapua starline and nosler brass
I'd like to see H335 (SMP-735) in action... My Lyman 50th says the max for both the 77 and 80 grain Sierra HPBT is 25 grains-2850 FPS- 2.260 OAL... They used a 24" barrel though. I think you should still be able to get close to the 2750 FPS mark with an 18" barrel, right?
Just got done with the series so far. Awesome stuff.
Great shooting and information! Thanks for another great video!
I very much enjoy your videos Johnny. Thank you for taking the time and effort to make and post them!
Have you been able to find any Reloder-16 and if so, have you considered including it in the MK262 clone video? Alliant's print manual list it as slower than Reloder-15, but faster than PP2000MR. It is also an extruded powder with the same characteristics as AR-Comp. If its density is right, it may be just the ticket for velocity, accuracy, and temperature insensitivity.
I haven't been able to find a pound yet. I like what you're thinking, though! It would definitely be worth testing in 223!
Along the same line of thought, RL-23 may do the same for the 6.5 CM. The video with RL-26 was very interesting and I was a bit surprised.
With so many new powders and burn rate charts not keeping up well, I find the Western Powders chart to be useful to manually write in the new powders and keep them "organized" in burn rate bands to help compare them.
Happy New Year! Thanks again for your interesting videos.
Alliant sent me data for RL-23 in 6.5 CM: 140gr Speer Spitzer SP, COAL 2.760" in Hornady brass with CCI200, 45.8 gr (compressed) for 2799 fps.
Man I wish it was possible for you to recreate this with the M118LR. I know everyone says it’s 4064 but it’d be a fun journey
From the Marine Corps precision weapons shop, the load was changed and it’s now AB-39 (Mk-316)
Federal brass
Federal 210 primer
42.0 grains of IMR-4064
175 grain Sierra BTHP match
From a retired Marine.
Very cool video and is my goto for reloading 77Gr SMK HPBT for XTC. thx
I shoot High Power Service Rifle, the top guys say Start looking for accuracy issues at 2k. Re-barrel at 3k for sure for master level accuracy
Have you seen the video on TATV Canada on the RSI chamber pressure tester? With some of the loads you work on it might be worth looking at. It would also be interesting to have a closer idea of actual pressures.
Great series. Ready for some 300AAC videos. Good stuff!
Great video. 8208 is one of my go to powders. Varget is not one of my favorite for 223, but as slow as it burns it might work. But you may run out of case capacity before you get the velocity youre looking for. I wish Hodgdon would make a short cut version of Varget.
The farther you reach out the more the SD play into the group size.
I’d like to see that “best load” video in colder weather like you discussed
Great series I would really like to see the CFE on the lower velocity that gave you the best group shot at 200 yards and see if it would shoot a half inch MOA or smaller group at 200 yards
I would like to see the same work up with Varget.
...great series of videos! I'm hoping start hand loading to clone the .223 69grn SMK for my 1:9 twist bolt which shoots them 1MoA from 100 to 900 yards. Is there an approximate ratio for the powder loads from a 77 to 69grn. Looking for around 2800 fps muzzle velocity?!
Howz it Johnny...im a hardcore hunter from the big island of Hawaii ...im a reloader and hunt mouflon sheep weekly to feed my family .really dig your reloading feedback ,i hunt in temps that range from 32-80 degrees with an ar15 18" 1/8 twist.....keep up the awesome work brother ...cheers aaaaaaaaaaa@loha
So about the "clean" barrel and finding that happy place between bare bore bright-metal and carbon cake choke nasty for those sweet copper coated sugar pills. Please share your own thoughts on the subject, I would love to hear them. I wonder, do they have bullets made specifically to foul the bore to equalibrium quickly after cleaning or break-in? Are bullets sold that do this better then others? How much "better" then a standard 55gr fmj if at all? In my brain I'm seeing like an annealed soft copper bullet that's even a bit overbore then the standard size for its given caliber. Maybe even a longer shank or baring surface. Could this be done with a stiff rod (thank you I'll be here all week) with an attached copper slug of sorts on barrings and allowed to rotate in and with the rifling as it's pulled. Im assuming this would be less effective then firing actual rounds because it would be nearly impossible to mimmick the actual forces applied by the projectile to the walls of the barrel in normal live fire operations. Maybe one could submerge or fill just the barrel with solution and electroplate or deposit copper by electrically or chemically doing so. I could see using puddy to seal the muzzle and chamber and running electrodes through center bore. Although to be honest that does sound a bit.... Envolved and elaborate imo. Haha :) I want to create a way to CONSISTENTLY maintain copper equalibrium using intentional and repeatable processes with realistic expectations using avaliable components. I understand it's waaay too much for 99.9% of shooters. But that's what's compelling to me. I see alot of unknowns and areas of research that haven't been fully approached and investigated. Modern production of barrels and components and the manufacturing processes that they are made with are amazing. It allows us to more precisely analyze data, correct and attach specific changes to work smarter... Faster. Cheers
I'm going for the 22 Nosler, not looking back!! Wish me luck!!!
Big Racer update?
the high temp here in Minnesota on Christmas day will be -10 to -5. You're welcome to come shoot, I'll be sitting in front of the wood stove!
I am really curios as to why Velocity matters that much? When loading for accuracy most people don't concern themselves with velocity. I like the results on the ball powders proving what we knew already that they are temp sensitive. Great work. Thumbs up!
We are cloning a military round, so I assume the extremely high velocity has to do with killing enemy combatants at greater distances. Thanks!
OH...Duh I missed the obvious "Cloning" part. lol. Thanks!
The more shots in your group, the bigger the group will be. A 1.047 MOA 10 shot group translates to a .78 MOA 5 shot group. Or just about what you wanted. The factory ammo was shooting where it is supposed to be.
That is just flat good shooting, all the way around!...I know you are trying to match or clone MK 262, but my stupid question is, Why shoot a 77 grain bullet, when you can shoot a different caliber to do better for long range? 6.5 Grendel with 100 grain @ 2770fps or 120 grain @ 2550fps without much more recoil... You have those in your training videos with great results. Thanks for the great videos and teaching
Sure would like to see some more episodes of this series.
I shoot factory Black Hills out of my BCM factory upper and it always has sharp ejector marks. I shot Hornady Black 75 grain .223 and the brass came out beautiful. Other than ejector swipes, what other pressure signs should I look for in the Black Hills brass? The BH is marked WCC on the headstamp.
Great stuff as always. Did I hear you say awhile back you would be having some bench mats coming out soon or were
you just kidding around ? I'm about done building a new bench and somehow or another it's turned into a piece o furniture and now I don't want to beat it up.
Great series. Nice approach for data.
I have been thinking I should grab some 2000-MR but maybe I should get 2520 instead?
Why not both? A pound of powder only gets you ~300 shots in 223, so you'll eventually need more! Might as well switch things up occasionally and try different things.
Agreed. Get both and try them.
Im kinda going through the same little project right now. Might as well get both, every rifle is different.
I would love to see you take a load that shot really well then re-test that load again in a new video. I have done this multiple times and good loads do not necessarily shoot well 2nd time around..
Great video. I was gonna use this info to work up a mk 262 load in my 16” barrel. What kind of velocity loss would I expect? Thanks man.
I still have 5 shots of the Black Hills left. I will try and save it for my 16" Colt LE-6920. I'm not really sure what to expect for velocity!
My 16 inch BCM 1:7 twist is getting 2720 for 10 shot average.
Great series!
With all things being the same except for barrel leangth and nonsuppressed, what would pressures be like on a 20" barrel?
On the cfe223 with 4 bullets in one hole!
I'm sure you've answered this question before but I've been wondering what bipod and bipod mount you use.
Question: Which load/Powder would you choose if brass life were your goal?? Great stuff Johnny, love the channel man.
2000-MR seems to give the most velocity with the least brass damage.
i've watched all 14 of the videos in this series are you going to call a winner?
I’d say 8208 xbr at 2700
Johnny. Someone mentioned this on discord and it made me think of you. Hope you are doing well.
I wonder what this would look like with TMK
i miss those days where you could buy any powder. im stuck with BLC2 right now for Mk262 Mod 0 clones haha
That barrel is definitely shot out, you can send it to me.....Load us 10 of the CFE 24.4 gr and shoot at 200yds. Please.