223 Sizing Die Tests
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Testing three sizing dies and two expanding mandrels in .223 Remington. The test includes Lee, Redding, and Mighty Armory dies along with expanding mandrels from 21st Century and K&M.
Find me other places:
➤ / reloading
➤www.subscribes...
➤paypal.me/jrbd...
➤ / johnnysreloadingbench
Product links may be affiliate links.
“Lee appreciation moment.” I’ll second that…
I bought a bunch of cheap lee kit to get me started. Years later and I haven’t gotten around to buying anything better. I only load hunting ammo and they just keep on doing the job for me.
@@Alan.livingston Their stuff just works. The warranty and customer service is second to none as well. I have great confidence in the Lee products. I think people tend to over think hand loading when it comes to dies and equipment. I’ve made impacts on targets at 1 mile with my ammo loaded with a Lee press and dies. That’s good enough for me..
Lee is not expensive but ingenuis, their resizer (FL and also collet dies) are made to produce low runout, their FL have an expander which is in "high position" in the die and when it work in the collet the case body is still in the die, help to produce low runout. I have and I use also LE Wilson bushings dies, Redding type S(FL and neck dies), ... but I love my Lee resizer, they work great.
My first 7.62x54Rmm was a Lee die. I like it cause of how simple it is too use but I bent the decapping pin. I've done that twice with lee dies, I figured I had bottomed out the die but it also struggled to decap casings at least in a rockchucker press.
Edit: after that happened I went with RCBS, aside from annoying looking shoulder dents from RCBS case lube it works great
Let’s not forget about Lee’s excellent customer service as well.
Amen.. send in a die get it back fixed or new.. Put it to the test a few times. No BS...
Not my experience. I had something that was supposed to have a machined hex bit in it so that an electric drill could accept it. It was only a hex on one half and seemed to not be machined at all on the other half. They made me pay shipping to get a replacement on the factory defect. I wasn’t too happy and am now very reluctant to get lee products
Lee has been making reloading equipment for a long time. They may be the least expensive, but they have learned how to do it at least acceptably for many people.
I agree. You're not making very precise match rounds, but you can still make some very good performing rounds. And churn out some very decent plinking rounds. Which is a really good thing. The cheapest equipment does not produce bad results. For once. lol
Parents bought me a complete RCBS reloading set with extra dies when I turned 12 for $25 at a yard sale (1968).
Still have it, then bought a complete Lee set for a $100-ish back in 1998 so I didn't have to change out the dies when running 9mm, 45 LC or 303 British.
Having two presses is close enough to having a "progressive" setup.
@@riccochet704 My Lee stuff produces more precise ammo than almost any off the shelf "match" box ammo for WAY less cost. I find it hard to complain.
you would have to be benchresting a custom rifle to ever come close to exceeding the accuracy you can achieve with Lee dies.
Thank the good lord you are back. The best channel on UA-cam
Lee is inexpensive and innovative. In forums there are always folks ready to dump on lee and insist you need to spend 3 to 5 times more for a green or red brand name on the box... I'm glad Lee did so well.
I have spent a shameful amount of money experimenting with different brand dies and I learned many lessons along the way. One of those lessons was that the Lee FL sizing die is hard to beat at any price and has earned full membership to the Reloading Die Hall of Fame. I have found that each brand has at least one die or one feature that outshines its competitors in that respective area. Competition and the free market bring out the best in all of us.
Lee are my go to dies for everything I load. Thanks for this comparison.
When setting up dies in my RCBS (before I ditched it for the Forster) I followed Dillon's advice and ran a sacrificial case up into the die body to set up sizing, and before lowering the ram, tighten the lock ring while everything was centered up.
All my reloading equipment is Lee I’ve been completely satisfied with all the Lee products Absolutely the best value in reloading equipment. I’ve helped friends reload with more expensive bands but I haven’t found any brand that performs better .
Been using Lee dies since 2010 and never been anything but impressed with how well they load.
Excellent video by the way sir. 👍🏻
Lee die set are the right price, and they work. I use them for both rifle and pistol, Lee reloading manual has the most load of all the reloading manuals.
So ive started down this path as well. My best concentricity comes with lee decapping, annealing, hornady FL size body with innards out, sinclair mandrel, and then a forster bench rest seating die. I get about 0.001 of runnout.
There’s a theory about bullets “going to sleep” after about 100 or 200 yards. The basic is that the bullet is still moving around a fair amount at 100 yards and some results can’t really be observed at that range. Try shooting at 200 yards and see what you get. Also, shoot the ammo according to the runout, ie 10 rounds of 0 thousandths, 10 rounds of 1 thousandth, etc.
Lastly, IMO anything under about 3 thousandths of runout will be corrected by most rifle barrels; the bullets are dealing with a lot of pressure and tend to have weird harmonics and movements inside the barrel, enough that 1 or 2 thousandths will not make a difference. I think F-Class John or Mopar Man have done a similar test… maybe it was you I’m remembering… 🤷♂️
I wish LEE would come up with a micrometer adjustment add on like Hornady has for its rifle dies. A micrometer makes it so much easier to get things just “right.”
Discussed this with Lee via email. They told me 'No can do, other guys patented." News to me. Hornady, RCBS, Redding & Forster sell 'em. I got a big whiff of NIH (Not Invented Here). Scored the FA Universal Seating Die for $57 as an Amazon return pre-pandemic & have been pleased with it after minor mods: Filed index marks on the lock ring & under the index mark on the body to make lining up numbers easier; lubed the adj threads with HBN oil making adj much easier. Load multiple calibers no issue. I do keep a dummy round for every cartridge / bullet I load. Makes setting bullet depth faster & easier.
adj.
@@larrymitchell3502 There is no way there is a valid patent on micrometer that would prevent them from doing it. People have been using them in various tools for 100+ years.
@@texpatriot8462 Yeah, I know. Their reply was, imo, clearly "If we didnt come up with it, we ain't making it." Hence my Not Invented Here remark. Rather have 'em say "We're busy makin' OUR stuff." Started with Lee & use a lotta their products. Also RCBS, Hornady, Redding, Franklin Arsenal & NOE. Whatever seems best for what I wanna do at a fair price.
The Lee 'dead length' seater stem is 18 tpi. About .005 -.007 is about the smallest change one can make. Not good enuf for Long Range (5-600 yds and up) imo - a change of .002 - .003 can shrink (or enlarge) groups.
The FA Universal Seater can be accurately set down to .002 ime. Little fiddly changing from one caliber to another but it works. Having a dummy cartg for most bullets I load in each caliber lets me quickly dial it in when changing from .223 to .265 to .308. Would buy it again fer sure.
I have a pdf with temple I made that can make your one Micrometer for lee seating die. I seen a couple years ago on youtube and I just kind of redone it and made a temple and pdf file. It works well if setup correctly.
@@texpatriot8462 More likely a Micrometer set up would simply add too much cost and raise the price too much for Lee's target market. Also would add complexity and support issues that a fixed die doesn't have. So pros and cons for both, and I can see a reason or two for Lee to not do it.
LMAO the best group with cheapest die
I saw the warning. Don't copy blindly. Man my White Oak barrel runs so much faster than jrb'd . At least down south anyway. I can't touch the charges he uses. But what a rad video and I'll have to take your word on this stuff because I don't use mine for benchrest. My .8" groups run perfectly for scratching steel out to 700 so I just shoot what I can make consistent but drama free all at the same time
Lee is what I started with. All my best loads have been done with them.
I also use Lee dies and have been very satisfied.
About half way through the range test, I was wishing you had five more rounds from the Lee die you could shoot last to compare to the first ten. I was wondering about barrel fouling as well as heat.
Great video!
I use lee for everything, except for 38/357. I’m always happy with lee performance. Great video!!
I have Lee and Redding .223 die sets. I have never had a stuck case with the Lee but several on the Redding. I stick with the Lee. Not going for great groups but have been solid and consistent.
Love Lee ultimate dies package. Good deal and great quality, accurate. Right choice. 👍
Lee is the greatest... Thanks for the video
I've been reloading for years using all brands of dies and equipment and have come to the conclusion that Lee makes equipment that is on par with almost anybody's. Maybe 10% of shooters can benefit from more expensive "precision dies". The rest of us wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Buying based on color or price is a waste of money.
You hit the nail on the head. Dead center!
I wonder if outside neck turning would make a difference? Also, watching your videos really changed my mind on Lee products. I guess I have been a bit of a snob when it comes to selecting dies and other products. I see that really Lee produces some quality products, and I have purchased a few dies from them and I am impressed with what I have received. Thanks for the videos.
I predicted your outcome.
& was delighted to see it fulfilled.
There is nothing wrong with Lee dies. They are great dies.
They are always my first choice, if I can get them.
I have been loading for 42 years. Doesn’t make me an expert, just someone who has tried a lot of dies.
I think you'd be surprised how important consistent neck trimming is. As much 223 as you shoot, I'd consider a Giraud 3 way drill trimmer, and use it every firing!
I’ve been running the MA die followed by the 21st century Mandrel and didn’t know I had an internal donut in my cases until I got a Forester neck tension gauge!
I am fairly new to reloading, only been doing it a couple years now. However, I discovered the Mighty Armory dies very early on and now I have many of them for pistol and rifle calibers. Honestly, my only "complaint" is that they don't yet have dies for everything under the sun. BUT I bought their dies even if I already had another manufacturer's die for the given caliber. They are absolutely expensive and absolutely worth it for me.
That said, I have Lee, Redding, and Hornady dies also. I have NOT found that any of them were poor. I recently bought Lee for 30-30 Winchester. Though they were cheaper than other brands they did awesome work. I user the Hornady micrometer seating die for 300 BO, 44 SPL, and 44 Mag. I use the Mighty Armory seating die for my 9mm and 45 ACP...
I am not competition shooting, so for my needs, they are all fine. For Mighty Armory, I love the decapping, resizing, and flaring dies... so I find I mix and match... i.e. decap, resize, and neck flare using Might Armory then bullet seat using Hornady or Lee, or etc...
My accurate load with the Hornady 75 OTM without cannelure is 22.5Gr. AR Comp. R/P brass & R/P 7 1/2 or a Federal AR primer. Rainier arms Ultra Match 18" SPR Barrel . I also use the Mighty Armory 223 Die.
I think that you just proved what I’ve been saying for years. I’ve been shooting tiny groups with Lee for years. The anal reloaders try and make it more complicated than what it needs to be
This makes me want to see this test but with a full length bushing die in the mix
I just bought a Mighty armory 223 sizing die for a progressive press (wanted something comparable or maybe better vs Dillon) and now I'm looking for a good review and saw you had one. I was super happy for that, love you channel and have been a sub on my personal channel for awhile. Really like you videos, there's no one else that can talk through things and keep me entertained.
I've been afraid on small base as the 223 round has high sizing pressure and not a lot of base to hold.
I really like a Hornady bullet puller and a gauge pin for neck expanding, the gauge pins are cheap and you can really dial in the neck tension down to half a thousandth.
I make a great lanolin based spray lube if you want to try in the future, uses peg 75 (water soluble) Lanolin.
It’s good to see that there really isn’t any poi change
My first love was lee dies. They got me into precision loading.
Appreciate the video. In the end I stay with my lee dies. I agree about the barrel warming. I bet any of the dies would work so close to not make much of a difference.
If only Lee would make a micrometer seating die. Lee! Take my money.
I have Pro 1000 that I exclusively use for 9mm. Love it.
I have a Auto Breech Lock Pro I use for 223 and 300B, and occasionally 380ACP. The priming system kinda sucks because it's manual and easy to forget. But I remove that step entirely by now priming in bulk.
The real magic happens with bulk case prep. I love my Lee APP (deprime, swage, resize) and the ACP (priming) for rifle and 9mm brass. I run the 4 tube case feeder. It's glorious!
I also enjoy making 12ga with the Lee Load All.
Some people reload to shoot. I shoot to reload.
Lee is for me!
Was shoulder bump the same for all?
Very nice video. I'm impressed with the Lee dies. 👍👍👍🏆🏆🏆🏆👍👍👍👍.
Go lee. I use only the Lee die for 6mm ARC. Every other die I have used destroys lapua and other thick 6.5 Grendel conversion brass. I have the Lee, Hornady, rcbs small base. The Lee always fits the brass the best. Although the Hornady 6mm ARC brass sizes well in the hornady die. But any 6.5 Grendel brass gets seriously bent up, which makes me cringe when using lapua 6.5 Grendel. Thanks for the video. Also for the 223 I always use the hornady set and have never had a problem with accuracy. Also I agree with shooter fatigue, also could be dirty barrel. Thanks dude.
Ps do you ever use Norma powders? Such as 202 or 203b? I have heard 203b is Reloader15.
Runout doesn't matter at all. This has been exhaustively tested.
Enjoyed the video. Great content.
22.9 of AR comp is mind blowing to me ! I am at 22.1 and getting pierced primers! Don’t know what to make of it! Great videos! Keep up the good work!
Too much neck tension/crimp?
Love my lee dies! When we getting more 6 ARC? Just got my 18” Proof barrel
Hey man. A 223 Ackley video would be amazing!
some old time reloaders i knew use to claim that you should run your expander stem up as high up in the die as you can to help run out
lee dies are undertested .they work well.
Okay, so where do you buy new unfired Lake City brass? I’ve looked everywhere but can only find once (supposedly) fired brass. Please help 😩
you ever check the run out off the neck and compare to the bullet run out results when seated
Amen about the Lee dies!
Richard was ahead of his time. People are buying floating tool heads for their Dillon press that that o ring is doing.
Lee you have a one piece expander and decapping pin. Wreck the pin and you need a complete rod. I like the replaceable pins such as Hornady
With a 29.5 grain H2O fired case volume, QuickLOAD says just under max 5.56 NATO pressure and 2790 fps with your 22.9 grain load of AR COMP.
Lee sizing die, no expander, and the Lee neck collet die?
Your videos are always amazing.
I was noticing the discrepancy between the first 5 shots and last five right away.
Have you ever done a video of equipment you need to get into reloading? If so could you possibly share the link.
Too hot. 22.4 grains of AR-Comp does it for me, and my batch of powder is a touch on the slow side.
agreed. 21.5 of AR comp with a 77 SMK is my load out to 600 yards.
try running a patch and semi clean the bcg and barrel after each group and cool down. awesome vids, thank you for the info 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻😁
You should test accurate 2200 rifle powder in 223 loads with multiple 55 grain bullets.
@JRB hey bud, just spit ballin here but, could the unexplained 50 to 60 fps jump from your other 2 videos with the same load data have something to do with changes...? About 2730ish to about 2790ish...?
Get a Mikes reloading annealer. You'll thank me. Best bang for your buck! I now really enjoy annealing.
I lean toward shooter fatigue, first ten were tighter
I could never get my Lee die to bump my shoulder even with the die all the way to the shell holder
Also if you get a chance try ags annealer affordable
After you shoot with the same case say 5 or 6 times don't you find the neck wall thickness begins to equal out all around and except plus or minus 0.5 thousands the walls are the same thickness ?
Now I resize the case body & shoulder in one step then just the neck with my Lee Collet Neck Sizing die (mine is .2215) in the next step. I do though check overall length after I case & shoulder size and trim if needed.
In my 223 cases which is all I shoot I find this to be the case.
Interesting video. I would like to see you make another one, but this time shoot the MA die first and the Lee last just to prove your theory. But in all honesty I
hope you return to posting again..lol.✌🏻
Doesn't seem reasonable that barrel heat was the problem because there was no gradual devolving of resolution over the different groups. The last group was just as randy as the 2nd group.
Your expanding mandrel is ALWAYS suppose to float. Otherwise there is little point
don't load Hornady bullets or equipment until they change their stance to stand up for freedom!
Colleagues laugh at me for using only lee and rcbs dies kits. For them exist only redding. I will send them a link to your channel.
maybe a "lead sled" to eliminate human factor ?
I only use Lee, because it works perfect every time with hundreds of thousands of rounds loaded so far.. are mine 100% concentric, probably not. Do they fire every time, yes they do, can I put all of them on target where I expect them to be, yes absolutely
I use cfe223 with that bullet. Give it a try
I love my Lee dies. I think Lee products are responsible for bringing more people into this hobby than any other company out there.
They are generally the most intelligently designed.
I own Lee dies and I am very happy with them.
I think your barrel got to hot 10 shots that fast is not accurate reading. The barrel moves when that hit. So not a good test for dies. Stop about lee your a lee man. We get it
Lee can produce sub moa ammo, enough said.
All day everyday..!
Hell, yes! LEE has earned an appreciation moment. They have stood by their values of bringing decent quality to market at a reasonable price for the common man.
They make reloading accessible to MANY more that see the entry to the hobby as price-prohibitive.
Thanks so much for a nice video to go to bed to (I rewatch all the time as wind down videos) and fantastic shooting as always, good sir! Hope to buy you a drink some day.
You should add the Lee Collet Die to the comps. I use it for all my calibers, amazing tool. Lee 223 Remington Collet Die Set includes a Collet Die that uses a collet to squeeze a mandrel creating a precisely aligned case neck while reducing run out,
LEE makes Great stuff, I've used some high dollar equipment and I come back to LEE constantly. Very high value reloading tools.
Same, I have had fantastic results out of my Lee dies I have others and keep going back to the Lee's
Lee dies, robust, straight forward design and engineering that’s easily understood making them simple and intuitive to use with precise results. No gimmicks or trickery. Just an honest product at an honest price point with very little performance compromises. If point of impact performance is lacking, it ain’t the Lee dies.
Yep. I know several people that paid a lot more for their dies that can't get their ammo to shoot worth a damn. Your gun, your shooting ability, and your reloading techniques all make a lot more difference than your equipment.
If you want to cool your barrel faster,l more even, lock the bolt back and stand your rifle vertical
I am only 8 minutes into this video and I can tell that this one is going to be epic for this reloading nerd. I may have to go buy some new expander mandrels or possibly some new dies after this one. Thanks Johnny. Carry on. Carry on.
Makes me feel good about buying all Lee dies for my first 3 cartridges, .223, .357 mag, and 30-40 Krag. 9mm is next on the list.
I use mostly Lee stuff and have yet to be disappointed. Not saying I don't have some other brands here and there, but I would have no problem replacing them with Lee stuff if I had to.
@@OddBallPerformance I bought the Lee dies for my mosin and have brought my groups to 2" at 100yds with Speer Hot formed core bullets .311 150 gr but I am still testing
Lee is the honda civic of the reloading world...I have some regular lee dies that out perform some of my $300 die sets! It really makes me stop and think before I go straight to the expensive stuff...
Like most of us I love accuracy, the quest for true flight has cost me a bundle. I've got more crap on my bench that sometimes I don't even remember, but Lee always has something I can count on. Sometimes keep it simple keep it basic. Good job Lee.
Yeah Johnny, I've been using Lee gear for years & there's absolutely nothing wrong Lee equipment. No surprise to me dude.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that rifle either. Since they're 10 shot groups, it is what is with no bullshit added in. I'd have no problem calling that a solid 1 MOA rifle which is more than most can say with their 3 & 5 shot groups.
Great vid Johnny.
I use a 21 Century .305 expander mandrel for my .308 and a .220 for my .223. I find I need a little more neck tension for semi-autos because of the violent action on the bcg slamming the round home. If you measure CBTO before and after a round is chambered. The bullet will move a couple of thous.
I love Lee dies. They work great and half the price of some others. Haven't shot match since EAS. 1moa is good enough now.
I just did something similar with my new Semi-Custom 7x57, although I just showcased the groups and prints on paper and didn't delve into the run-out numbers. I can share that my redding die set had the worst run-out, but ended up shooting one of the better groups. Conversely, my Lee die set had average run-out, but shot the overall worst group, though not by much --- however, it should be noted that my Lee expander ball had only 0.001" of neck tension, unless the 0.002" that the rest had, and that is enough to make a difference.
This was a great video, I love ones like this.
the mighty Lee company comes on top again, a lot less money also.
Well, there's definitely something physical going on as there's a significant point of impact shift to the left as well. My guess is either barrel heat or fouling being the cause. The fact that the second half is typically the culprit leads me to believe it's most likely the barrel heat. One way you can get around this is by shooting one shot from each test group after the other. This also accounts for changes in fouling.
My experience is I get vertical stringing when my bbl gets hot. Not saying yours is not but I thought I would share.
I had a similar experience with 223 in my WOA upper. I've got a few different 223 sizing dies (Lee FL, Lee Collet, Forster FL, Redding Body). I saw no improvement splitting up operations. I saw negligible improvement using Forster over Lee. I do use a fancy micrometer seating die, but I see no reason to get anything other than a Lee FL sizer for 223. I think maybe WOA's 223 Wylde chamber just likes a Lee FL resize.
I absolutely saw it was the last five bullets in the groups that were opening them, even said I had to comment on it before your video points it out. Who built your upper? Did they bed/shim the barrel into the upper? If your upper isn't a thermal fit upper (which the AP Enhanced are not), there is enough room between the barrel extension and the upper barrel thread area that as heat is transferred into the aluminum of the upper it expands and allows for too much movement in between the two. Bedding the barrel or using steel sheet shim to take up that extra space drastically effects stability in that that area. It's the most crucial area to stay stable during thermal change. As long as the barrel extension/upper fit isn't drastically sloppy, you should be able to bed the extension with Locktite 620, clean off any residual, re-torque the barrel with Aeroshell 64 on the threads. Let it dry for a couple days and then retest. OR, buy an upper that will thermal fit the barrel extension; BCM, SOLGW, Zev, Mega, Triarc, any other Zev manufactured upper. They all need to be heated with a torch to get the barrel into the upper. Either of these will get rid of the potential your barrel is moving in the upper.
I've never heard of this thermal fit upper. That makes complete sense to me. I want to look into that process more with loctite my question to you is what if I wanted to remove the barrel later what would I do then? By the way thank you for posting this information. I've always used aero precision uppers so I thought that's how it was supposed to be. Thank you for this. Very interesting and eye opening for me anyways.
@@orangerider2827 you heat the upper up after disassembly and removing the barrel nut. 620 will get brittle and release. Thermal fit uppers you do the same. The aluminum expands and releases the barrel extension.
Using 609 works also. Ive even used blue LOCtite, which is more than ok. I also use a receiver lapping tool to ensure a perfect fit between the receiver to the barrel.
Forgot to mention the couple other things I do to help with consistency and accuracy. I “tune” gas tube for as little contact as possible with the gas key and I use enhanced bolt carriers, specifically the ones with enlarged rear portion to limit slop and reduce carrier tilt within upper. There’s a few different brands out there but I use a sharps rifle company Bcg in my main rifle and recently bought the cmc which is designed for short barrels and or suppressor use
Thank you both for the information and help!
Lee has made some awesome stuff jrb over years think ur channel shows it. Some of those groups are pretty good.
Think shooter fatigue plays into it as well as barrel heat..
Was reloading 243win when watching this.
You need to do a test, but nothing to do with your dies. Load some ammo. Test the contrencity. Then chamber the rounds and test again without firing. Is bouncing off the feed ramp and into the chamber at high speed making your contrencity moot. Or perhaps shoot 2 groups, 1 from the magazine, one single feed.
I found powder choice in.223 making the most difference for accuracy. H335 was the worst and CFE .223 and IMR 3031 best with 55g and heavier. Some powder/ bullet combination would group 9 inches left, just nuts while my 55 VMax with IMR 3031 groups dead on well under 1moa
Lee die guy since the late 80s. Formerly only RCBS but I've since tried Redding, Hornady and Forster. Lee products are always functional, well designed and fairly priced. This is what companies were like in Old America. Perhaps after the collapse of the Evil Empires' phony currency, an even better version of America (and its companies) will be born.
Anyone who has read Richard Lee knows he was the real deal.
One of the purposes of the mandrel dies is cases are more rigid when pushing down on them, Vs pulling up through them. Supposed to allow for a more consistent shoulder bump.
I always find myself rooting for the underdog… with that said, letting the brass dictate the path always seems like the best idea for center. A little give in the die, a little give in the shell plate. I’m not sure we can create better alignment on our own. Just my Philosophy. For example, sometimes I see my Turret on my press move ever so slightly when I run my case into the die. I have always seen this as a good thing? IDK. Always a pleasure Johnny! 👍
I would suggest barrel heat is the problem IMO. Needing a lot longer to cool down , having said that LEE dies have always worked extremely well for me.