In April of 2019 I backed a board game called Blood on the Clocktower. For $100, I was expecting a lot. However, there were some real red flags: Its box was going to be lined with felt (never done before in a board game), all of the tokens that you punch out will be felt-backed also (yet again, never done before), and the team has never made a board game before it. Now, with my copy of Blood on the Clocktower in my hands, feeling more quality than I could have ever imagined, I will confidently say that I am okay with having a product be delayed so long as we get updates. It makes the eventual product that much more satisfying to have.
A lot of campaigns on kickstarter are on there because the developers/creators are new to the process of making things. I think that makes delays pretty natural and common. As long as you know that going in, you're right, the delays aren't that big of a deal if the team communicates with the backers well. There's a fine line between looking like you're trying to perfect the product and looking like you're being nonchalant, and with the delicate balance on KS I think devs should be constantly aware of that line so they can be on the right side of it. It may not reflect how the game ultimately turns out, but it definitely helps the atmosphere around it
Blood in the Clocktower is both arguably the best party game and the greatest social deduction game ever made. Steven Medway and The Pandemonium Institute should take a bow for truly delivering a wonderful product, despite the constant scrutiny and doubts.
Little Devil Inside is the type of adventure game I've been looking for. A shame things turned out the way it did, but a tiny aspect of me is still holding on to hope, and wishing it'll be at least a decent game.
I'm so beyond stoked for Crowsworn!! I absolutely LOVE it's Hollow Knight-esque art style, and basically being a Bloodborne styled game, I'm feeling it'll probably be a masterpiece alongside the best Indies!!
Seeing more stuff on crowsworn and I feel nothing but regret for not having put faith in it sooner, can’t wait for when it releases. Another great video!!
Little Devil Inside reminds me a lot of the development of Cube World. A game that seemed to have great potential, a great atheistic, but plagued with developers who produced infrequent updates on progress, even years after accumulating larges amounts of money to develop said game
I remember as a lil' annoying goblin that I really wanted Cube World... then it came out and my heart was shattered into pieces. Cube World was a case of the creators going pretty much silent with making a few posts while making a bunch of changes to an already good base without testing it in any way, shape or form ending up in a final game that made pretty poor changes to it's Alpha version to the point that the Alpha version is the more enjoyable experience. We also had to wait a while for the inferior final game to come out. I fear that Little Devil Inside might end up the same and it pains me to think so. What has been shown of the game really appeals to me in many levels and I fear the devs will end up making changes without testing them for player "enjoyability" in the first place just like Cube World. It is to the point that I'd rather have this game never come out than have my heart ripped apart once again the same way Cube World did.
@mr.cobbweb1624 its actually insane to think about that the creator of that game just kept folding like paper whenever the game got some attention, even if it was positive and decided to seclude himself to...just make the game worse because he had no-one to tell him if the idea was a good one. (Next to his wife who probably just said "yeah that seems like a good idea" after he explained why he felt the need to...take away all your progression after every zone)
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure it started as and still is a hobby for him and his wife. His actual job is like a math teacher or professor; it was always weird to me to promote the game like it was a main focus for him and his wife when it really just a little activity they’d do together
Lmao definitely went ham the last few days. Probably the next week or so too if all goes to plan, but August has me pretty busy (and moving) so the uploads will definitely slow down. Always nice to hear you enjoy the editing tho
I don't know a thing about those two games, but wow was this such a well-written and edited video! I cannot believe the rate you put out videos on. I hope this video blows up and your channel grows. This is a great topic and conversation to have.
Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it despite not really knowing the games haha. Always appreciate the kind words, especially from people that have been following my channel for a bit!
I definitely share the excitement about LDI, but I'm not getting my hopes up too high. The art style is definitely amazing and the gameplay looks incredible, but what little I've heard about its development process gives plenty of reason for concern. They wouldn't be the first team to get too ambitious with a kickstarter game and fail to deliver/live up to expectations. As for kickstarter itself, I've been on quite the journey with it. I backed my first project in 2012, and wound up backing well over 100 projects over the years. Some turned out great, others not so great, others haven't been delivered yet, or failed entirely. I think maybe a handful of them released on time, and of those, most needed significant updates/changes. The title I've been waiting the longest for is Radio the Universe, which funded almost 10 years ago (January 2013) and is still in development. The playable beta from a couple years ago was pretty great though, so I'm still excited. I don't back much on KS these days for a variety of reasons. One of the biggest is that most indie games are overpriced on there imo. It used to be that you'd get a significant discount when you back a game on KS, to reflect the fact that you're taking a risk on an incomplete project that might underwhelm or not even release. These days, most indie kickstarters set the base game pledge level at the launch price of most indie games. Another thing is that it's common practice for developers to not actually ask for the money they need to finish the game. The prevailing wisdom is that you set your funding goal low so that you can exceed it, guaranteeing you some money. If you don't wind up with enough to actually finish the game, you use the money to progress as far as you can, then shop the game around to publishers. There's something inherently dishonest about it, but almost everyone either does it knowingly, or they have no idea how much it actually costs to make games. Anyway I completely agree with your video. I've seen developers sustain the support and excitement of their community through incredibly extensive delays, and I've seen others lose most of their support almost immediately when things go wrong (even when the things that went wrong were unforeseeable and completely not their fault). There are other factors, like what sort of community coalesces around your project (which is tied to the nature of the project and the supported platforms), but it mostly comes down to attitude and communication. Developers who stay humble and grateful for the support, who communicate openly and honestly even just to drop a note saying they're still alive but don't have much news, or when they have a ton of news but it's all bad; they're the ones who keep their fanbase positive and excited.
100 CAMPAIGNS?? holy lmao Definitely interesting to hear the opinion of somebody who's been SO involved with KS over the years. Radio the Universe looks really cool, but wow I could not imagine waiting 10+ years for something to get delivered haha. Interesting points about the overpricing and potentially deceitful wording when it comes to funding. The realities vs the expectations with kickstarter make it pretty hard to pin down, so I totally understand if someone's either an avid backer of projects or if they're completely against it. It would be nice if devs were more transparent about what exactly the money would be used for, or if kickstarter made it much clearer to everyone using the service, but that would also probably hurt their campaign which I guess can lead to a kinda skeevy vibe. I still think I'll try and find a couple good projects every so often to back cause I love the experience I'm getting with Crowsworn, but im gonna be really, really careful when deciding those projects are. Pricing wise, I guess it's a little confusing cause indie prices can fluxuate so drastically. The discounted-price-for-early-adopters idea seems to have been taken up by Early Access games, although the discount isn't too big. I definitely think the base price for kickstarter projects should be less than the anticipated final price, but personally higher tiers are what interest me. It requires a lot more faith and a lot more research, but some of the perks actually wind up being incredible. Custom steel books, collectibles, specialized locations for thank you notes in-game, it might be kinda stupid to care about those especially for a game that may not be good, and may not even come out to begin with, but if I'm in I wanna be all in. You mentioned you use KS less nowadays, but are there any projects that really stood out to you recently? You know I'm always looking for smaller, unique games and I feel like KS is a gold mine for those.
@@AsadAnjum Early access offering a smaller discount makes a lot of sense to me, as the risks are lower. You get something immediately, even if it isn't the final game. IMO, the further a game is from completion, the bigger the discount should be since there are greater risks that it won't be completed. A lot of times KS campaigns will claim that you're getting a discount on the final project, but looking at the proposed "regular price" and the type/ambition of the game, I just know that it either won't actually launch at that price, or if it does, it'll sell very poorly and go on deep sales or have permanent price cuts shortly after launch. I agree that the higher tiers are interesting and can be incredible. That's where pricing becomes completely subjective as far as I'm concerned. The idea of being immortalized in some way in a game that you wind up loving is pretty awesome. Even just getting unique limited merch. It can really make you feel like you're a part of something. I've done that a decent number of times, with somewhat mixed results, and there have definitely been projects where I just got the base game and later regretted not going for one of the higher tiers. Regarding KS project budgets, many projects will put some sort of pie chart in that supposedly shows where the money will go, but I rarely trust those for videogames. Game development is generally far too complex to be able to budget like that with any sort of accuracy. And as for Radio the Universe, and all other long overdue projects, I've gotten to a zen like state about it. I'm excited every time I see something new, but I'm not impatient at all about how long it's taking. In that project's case, I've got a playable Beta that's a large section of the game, so even if it fails, I got my money's worth. It's a single person developing it, and the funding they received was fully spent years ago. I'm just glad he's still working on it, as many other people would have quit by now. Honestly I haven't backed a videogame kickstarter in quite a while. I still look at them from time to time, but I've got such an insane backlog of games (including many KS projects that I haven't gotten around to playing yet), and such a list of KS projects that still haven't delivered, that I can't justify spending more money on them. I'm occasionally tempted into backing a tabletop RPG project, but in some ways my backlog for those is worse. Much fewer games, but the chances of convincing a group to play them are much smaller than my chances of playing a videogame. Sorry I couldn't offer any recommendations. I'll try to remember to point out any campaigns I stumble across going forward. I'd actually checked out the campaign you mentioned in the video. Looks like it has some promise.
Crowsworn had me extremely sceptical at first. Even still it looks staggeringly similar to hollow knight. But every time I get to see more of it I have more and more faith in it
Thanks to you I found out about kloa child of the forest and pledged to them I can't wait to play the demo at the end of the year this game really reminded me of hyper light drifter and that game is very dear to me
I was lucky enought to catch the Crowsworn kickstarter when it was live and have been following every update since and the epicness of this game excites me!
The biggest reg flag is that Neostream Interactive has no social media or showcase to the public eye, something that seems very simple to do. We don't know who runs the studio, any of the programmers/developers, or any inside look into the development. I've heard some say that the game might not even exist and just contains cutscenes and looking more closely at trailers, that really seems like all were getting....
I found your videos on this game only recently. Hi, I'm an original kickstarter backer for the LDI back in 2015. And yes, South Korea is a real country I live in(referencing your other video.) I was once a fairly eager kickstarter backer with some successful outcomes. Until I threw my cash in this project and another one called Pixel Princess Blitz. Oh, boy. Both LDI and PPB taught me how not to believe in so called indie devs. They were the same cases. South Korean indie devs with tangible timeline and something shiny, already ongoing project to show off, just enough to make many people fell for it. And then, miss their schedules by several years, abandon entire update, complete silence and move on with all the money. I'm mad remembering it, but trying to move on. But they did left me a big scar. I left kickstarter platform. Never want to touch it again. Well it's not only due to their scams. It's about how the platform manages them. I filed several complaints to the company for lack of info updates and communications, which is a violation of their terms of services. Kickstarter only gave lukeworm answer and nothing changed. Later, when LDI got announced in PS conference, it got worse. Many backers, me included, backed the project cause it was announced as a multi-platform game. During the conference, it was announced that the game is PS exclusive. So even if the game isn't scam, since I backed for a PC version, I won't get the game anyway. This fulfills the criteria for asking refund in their ToS, so I filed another set of complaints to both kickstarter and supposed-devs. Nothing happened. I checked many other PC version backers. They got the same result. Nothing. I have no confidence in how this platform works. I advise people to stay away. Have a nice day. Hope you never get scammed like me.
7:20....People need to understand the difference between ripping something off vs. being inspired by something... not everything with similarities is a rip-off
Frequent updates that let backers know the devs didnt run out with the money matter more than respecting a deadline in my opinion. I don't care if the game takes longer to come out if that means the quality will go up, but that only works as long as i know the devs are still working on it. I've backed crowsworn and i'm incredibly hyped for it! Not enough to get access to the demo, but the frequent updates and trailers have still been keeping my hype up.
Been waiting for LDI hoping it comes soon, when it comes I hope it's worth the wait. Thanks for the updates your more consistent then the devs they should hire you as marketing XD
Most people don't care about kickstarter and release dates so i wouldn't say LDI has anything to worry about. It was shown on some big events before and it's more than enough to get a chance to blown up on release (like Stray) or just have some decent sales and reception
I'm sure it'll be fine in the end, but I also think it does hurt to alienate some of the most excited fans. I guess impatience plays a role from the audience end, and maybe once it's out that whole group of people will do a 180 and love the game, but I definitely feel this sense of deflation whenever I interact with a lot of the backers/fans on the discord, reddit, etc. They used to be super annoyed at the game which I always found to be a bit much, but now most don't even care to talk about it and a bunch feel like the games not even gonna come out. Maybe being in those specific groups gives off a different vibe than the general public, but at the very least Neostream has bummed out a lot of people in this process, and the already existing fanbase that was growing for this kinda splintered and fell apart. Like I said though, I still think it can be incredible, and I really really hope it is (seeing a Stray-like response would be amazing)
Thanks man! Crazy timing, I actually just found your channel yesterday haha. I was gonna comment on one of your videos, but might as well do it here- it's pretty nuts how frequently it looks like you're putting out content. I thought I was fast but damn you're putting out ~10 minute videos every 2 days or something. I really liked your endgame video, and I know firsthand how much time it takes to make videos about big overarching topics with appropriate examples, so the fact you put those videos out as often as you do is really impressive. Keep doing what you're doing, it's clearly working, from what I've seen you've absolutely skyrocketed this past month and you deserve it!
LDI was supposed to come out for Wii U. Let that sink in. P.S I get the same vibes as I did with BG&E 2 and Star Citizen. Extremely ambitious and probably won't ever come out Let this be a lesson. Perfect is the enemy of done.
Good video. Definitely excited for LDI and have been checking for updates weekly for the past 2 years. I'm hopeful that it will be great when it comes out. That being said, I compare the development to a game like Biomutant. It seemed like Biomutant went through a long development cycle before finally coming out. Just hope LDI is worth the wait. Thanx again for the vid.
I'm not a game dev, not am I related to the industry in any way shape or form, so idk if I have any right to put my opinion forware, but I feel like a common trend among some indie dev is a growing need to make their games bigger the more support they raise, when a game of smaller scale, bolstered by free expansions, could really help them deal with the problem of making a product that will seemingly never release due to various reasons (new consoles, engines, mechanics, personal time delays on the part of the developers etc.). Why not release a great, albeit smaller game, then take your time expanding on it while working on a new project, this time as an established and perhaps even beloved indie darling?
So on the topic of bad kickstarts, I have a freind who backed the game Edge of Space. If you don't know what it is, it was supposed to be a game similar to Terraria and Starbound and even had a crossover with Terraria. A demon was released pretty early on... but that's where it ends. That's becuase the main people behind the project took the money and RAN, leaving both the backers and the developers in the dark. For every Kickstarter project that fails, there's very few i've heard about on the game side that turns into actual theft.
The game doesn't have fast travel, and I think that's why the map is the way it is. The world is supposed to be huge and most areas are going to be open (according to the descriptions the teams given) but they also didn't want to incorporate fast travel since journeying around is a major part of the game. I feel like the map is their way of hitting a middle point- you still have to physically go everywhere but with the different perspective you can move faster. I think it'll come down to how it's implemented- is it my choice to go to map mode during open world areas? Does the game do it automatically with you unable to enter normal 3rd person mode between certain locations? Depending on which one it ends up being it can be a solid addition or kind of weigh the game down. Guess we'll see 🤷♂️
just like how the hollow knight silksong devs have been radio silent for ages, i check in with the silksong news account every day and it has been months even years since we've heard anything
I was so excited for LDI. But it's clear now that it's just not going to come out. No project gets delayed this often and releases in any form of what was promised, so even if (and it's not likely) LDI does release at some point in the future, it'll be so cut down that anyone who saw any promotional material will feel like they were lied to.
Been waiting for LDI from the start also and soo love it and fan but... Soo don't understand the silence behind it all. Could it be when they decided to move from Unity to UE5? Just all seems weird that they have gone all silent on us all. The game looks close to complete and it was suppost to be released a couple years back, so wonder what it could look like now. Just soo confused and sad about it. They don't even reply to your emails from their website
I heard a quote a long time ago (Forgive me cause I might just butcher this quote.) But the death of an art/media isn't when people are mad at it, its when Apathy fully takes over. cause apathy leads to indifference, and indifference leads to completely forgetting it.
i just looked at the thumbnail before clicking this video and immediately think LDI is the one in trouble and Crowsworn is the beloved one. Mind you i only watched the trailer and said "neat" to both of them so i dunno about this Kickstarter drama and all that shebang. and i am right this time around...... huh..... neat.....
Only game i’ve ever backed is called the last faith. A souls like side scroller. Game is still in the works but it’s looking amazing if your a souls fan check it out.
From the moment I saw the trailer in the ps5 showcase I knew I had to play this game. Im content with waiting as long as possible for it to release but I feel for the backers and investors about the lack comms from the devs. Maybe Sony wants to avoid another No Man's Sky situation where they picked up a small team and overhyped an unfinished product. Hopefully they get their shit together and release it or let it go multiplat so it can be enjoyed everywhere.
On one hand I’m afraid this game will be like Cube World. And the other I hope it’s like Darksiders. When DS3 came out I was so happy to see one my underrated games getting a 3rd, but a reason, also why I never learned until then there wasn’t a game after DS2 was because THQ went bankrupt. And so for like 5-6 years I’ve been waiting for a game that could have never came to fruition.
i literally check everyday for new info on Little Devil Inside. i swear ill be married with kids before this game comes out. I'd also like to add that comparing the dev time of these 2 games is rather unfair imo. One is a 3D semi open world action RPG with many more mechanics aswell as a supposed Co-op mode. The other is a 2D metroidvania. Obviously one is going to be made faster than the other. But to contradict my own statement, Hollow Knight Silksong has been in development for like 5 years now and still no release and it also a 2D metroidvania so idk lol.
Hey asad, this comment is late asf but i was also a huge fan of little devil inside when it was first announced. Is there any talk of the game from the devs still? Thanks
Absolutely. Demo was great, the fact that they made it cut content to avoid spoiling main game stuff is awesome, nothing but good things to say about that game so far
@@l.n.3372 no I don't think so. I'm in the middle of a move rn and quite a lot of work is piling up so I have a very particular schedule I'm trying to keep, not sure if a small demo update would fit in that. I'll probably do some coverage on the game closer to its release, maybe some dev interviews if I can get a hold of em
I personally hope LDI is such a hard loss that people will maybe realize they shouldn’t do what they did and that the consumers do actually deserve updates or for them to do their jobs. Pre purchasing games honestly just sets people up to not care as much in my opinion
I'm a backer from the original Kickstarter, ive let go of the money i paid but i still get pissed everytime i hear something new about the game that they will post pretty much anywhere but kickstarter. Which, granted, is like maybe once a year. it's been 3 years since they posted an update on KS. They could have just said "hi, stuffs still happening, here's a pic of a corgi" once in a while and we would have been good but I doubt anyone I in the KS still trusts neostream.
I backed it on KS in 2015. They never responded to ANY of the complaints about the delays. For the backers of this project, it's not about the disappointment, but simply their rude and irresponsible behavior. Then while ignoring all the backers, they were just showcasing it, and releasing more demos! I have backed other unsuccessful projects on KS too, where the team either cannot make it or it's a scam, and they go home. Little Devil Inside team keep ignoring the backers and demo their misachievements for years!!! I don't know if the game will be released ever, but I'm not going to play it. I cannot forget how rude and irresponsible the team have been.
crowsworn should be releasing sometime between september and december of this year (2023 for future reference) and LDI still has no definitive release date in sight 🙃
Hi. I am a huge Crowsworn fan and am typing this comment on (June 12 / 2024). Crowsworn update: As of now the devs are still hard at work creating a masterpeice. Though the game has been delayed past the origional realease year of 2023 I believe it is due to raising over $1,000,000 dollars. Since they greatly surpassed their origional goal of 125,000 dollars and meeting every milestone for the game! Including but not limited to [ nightmare mode , voice acting , Isles of vladar free DLC , fully animated cinematic cut sceans , and A whole alternate ending questline! ]. Adding this much prestinley high quality extra content ( which by the way they had no idea they would be able to get the funds to create all this extra content when they started the kickstarter, hence why they set the release for 2023) takes a lot of time. With all that said, I predict Crowsworn will release (3rd or 4th quarter 2025) or (1st or 2nd quarter 2026 at the absolute latest!) All who read this in the future give me an update whether I was right or not. Thanks future person!
I backed a physical release of glacias a webtoon i loved a ez 10/10 story and art..... Its been 3 years 150$ max level backer i got a custom art piece BUT am missing everything else and they claim the factor and covid screwed them over
Really well made video! Great job. but... 7:15 I think thats like one more zero added to what they aimed for... thats 10 times not 1000 times. or maybe Im getting it wrong am tired.
I would say only the "don't preorder" is absolutely correct, as games available for pre-order are already Gonna ship, regardless of you giving them money. Kickstarter is a bit different, as your money can make the difference between shipping and not shipping. I would say to just do research before committing to a kickstarter.
Little Devil Inside definitely isn't a scam. It's way too ambitious and lovingly crafted to be a scam. It's clearly a passion project that means a lot to the devs. But that is also its detriment. It seems like that the devs are too ambitious and perfectionist. The project became too large for them to handle. Either they ran into development issues and aren't able to finish it, or they ran out of money.
I don't get it. Everyone's so upset when developers rush a game out half baked. But then they also get upset when developers push back release dates to make sure the game's finished. Pick a lane. Take as much time as you need. I'll buy this game whenever it comes out.
I’m gonna give you my apple for lunch, in like 10 minutes. HAH jokes, I actually gotta buy it first so you’ll have to wait an hour actually. Needless to say, setting expectations and then repeatedly falling below them isn’t a good look. Not to mention the games with the MOST DELAYS are the ones where they’re half baked and jank on full release. Are we just gonna forget the fact cyberpunk 2077 had 3+ delays and was in development for almost a decade? One delay is understandable. Two is worrisome. Three or more is a sign that something is wrong fundamentally
@@Junya01 Lol these are facts. It's difficult to reconcile the time necessary to produce a quality product and the pressures from cooperate to get a return on investment. My mentality is you'll make more money if you release a game that isn't immediately torn apart for being unfinished. Cyberpunk is a perfect example. I waited for reviews and now I'll never buy it. But on the flipside there's Baldur's Gate. When it came out people loved it. Word of mouth spreads quickly in the gaming community. I don't think there's a coincidence between Nintendo's consistency with releasing finished products and their massive success. I've just chosen not so support studios anymore that are comfortable releasing unfinished games. And it's an industry that's allowed to get away with it. If I went to McDondals and got a piece of bread with some cheese on it, it'd understandably be unacceptable. But for some reason game developers are allowed to do it over and over again. I just think it's gotten out of hand and the community can correct it by not buying unfinished products. Each dollar is a vote. If we keep giving them our votes, it's never gonna change.
Came back here just after the new trailer for Little Devil Inside got released. The game is still alive ! You can check its new trailer here : ua-cam.com/video/8uZcUTK15rg/v-deo.html
Thing is though the games are different scopes. LDI is a Unreal Engine 3rd Person Shooter with multiplayer. Crowsworn is a single player 2D Unity3D metroidvania. So the ability to do community engagememt on larger project really depends on having someone do it as a job role, or as a hobby unpaid role. I'd rather they save the money and show work when they have quality work to show.
I completely and respectfully disagree :D I think my issue is that you're applying standard communication principle to a kickstarter campaign, and comparing two games that are in two completely different environment. Crownsworn was basically done when it did its kickstarter, that's the kind of game that's looking for additional funding to complete its development. Plus it's in a very know genre with easily (it's very relative) planned deadlines. If the kickstarter didn't succeed, the game would have existed anyways, probably thanks to a publisher. LDI is indeed the opposite here, it's a game that didn't exist past some pretty broad concepts, and it used kickstarter as... a kickstart. If you compare the two game, the amount of money LDI got is absurd, and that's not even taking into account the ambitions of LDI, which basically tried to create an entirely new game, with new design problems to solve. I backed it at the time knowing full well what it meant, and people who backed it and are mad *are* wrong. Yeah you can get fooled by a KS campaign, but that's not the case here, it's people expecting things based on their own ideas of how things work. And sure, the LDI team doesn't communicate a lot but that's also entirely fine? People use KS as a preorder, but think they're owed everything in return. If they can't recognize when a game has potential but still need a lot of work, or that 300k is NOTHING, I'm sorry but that's on them. I often see people get mad when studios sign a deal with a publisher after doing a kickstarter, and it's baffling to me. It's literally caller "kickstarter", not "fundthetotalityofaproject". Anyways, back on subject. I don't think LDI is a failure yet. From what we've seen with Sony, it would really need to be one of the biggest lies in gaming to still be a scam or a fake game. Maybe it'll disappoint, but that can happen with every game. And on a communication standpoint, it's like those games that are announced when development starts (something like KH3 or Bayonetta 3 for example), and people get crazy because they're used to game being announced 1 to 2 years max before release, with very controlled marketing, even though everything is mostly fine. I also think that's an issue with games announced in Sony events, people always tend to see them as way bigger than they are, because of Sony's focus on visual fidelity. But most of the time small project don't have the resources to communicate constantly about their game and remind everyone that the game exists and is still in the works. I know some still manage to do it, but that doesn't mean it's not a lot of work. What I do think though, having backed like 10 video games, is that if you're doing your work before giving money to a kickstarter campaign, you won't get outright scammed. Project can fail and never happen but that's usually outside of anyone's control. What you can see is what's presented by the team (gameplay, ideas, prototypes), what's promised (realase, stretch goals, stuff like that is often a good indication of how unrealistic some projects are), and what's the focus. Like, the bigger games that ruined KS's popularity were the game attached to big names, like Mighty N9 or Shenmue 3, even though their campaigns were terrible, while smaller game that didn't get as much press coverage but with extremely solid campaigns ended up being huge successes. But yeah, I know the video is mostly about how a team communicates about their game, and I don't see this being an issue, at least not on the devs side. It's just the way we're used to see games talked about, and some games are more compatible with that than others. Sure teams can always share what they're doing, but how many studios dare to share stuff that doesn't look final? Skate did this and... that's about it. Most other studios like to slap a "pre alpha footage" disclaimer on their almost final gameplay just to be sure people won't get mad. I know people tend to think a game is cancelled if there's no news for 6 months, and I can understand how it's a feeling that's even more present for kickstarters but... it's not like it's changing anything. Your money is gone and the game isn't out. If it comes out you get it, if not you can keep forgetting about it. When I give money to a kickstarter, I hope the devs will do everything they can to make the best game possible, the updates are optional, especially if they take resources from the game. Plus I'm sure the devs would love to talk about the game too, it's not like they're keeping secrets just to be mean. Indie devs also don't have the same expectations, and usually they have one shot at really making a marketing push. So they pretty much need to wait for the game to be ready to make sure the marketing fits their timeline. They can't afford being CDPR and delaying the game multiple times while still maintaining full media attention the whole time. But I also understand being kind of burned out on hype for some games that takes too long, to the point of apathy. I think it's something you just end up accepting at some point. In the end the hype itself doesn't change what the game is, even though sometimes it can be pretty fun. Okay, that was a lot of rambling, and I know some of it isn't the focus of the video, but I do think the concepts are relevant. Anyways, I still enjoyed the video, that an interesting subject. Keep it up 👍
First off, I appreciate you coming through with such a fleshed out view on the subject, especially since it differs from mine. I always like seeing different takes in the comments. That said I don't think I can tackle everything you said individually just cause I also tend to ramble and it'd for sure take 2 hours to respond haha. I do agree with the majority of your points here, whether related to the video or otherwise. The general atmosphere around kickstarter, the fact that it's not an end-all-be-all of funding, doing your research on a campaign can pretty easily protect you from a scam if you're not trying to blind yourself with hype, all that. I also agree that this specific comparison is a little flawed, which I mentioned near the end of the vid, saying the difference in funding, ambition and timeline on top of neostream being completely new to this makes it hard to directly apply one games actions to the other. Although I guess I also blurred that point when I gave examples of what crowsworn did for it's backers and mentioned that LDI hadn't done anything similar, so that's sorta on me. I think the one thing I disagree with was that I was looking at it like a normal game and not necessarily a kickstarter game, cause I definitely made a distinction between the two in my head. I've talked about it once or twice but I actually like that games like silksong and elden ring (for about 2 years there) decide to keep quiet until they have something major to show. I think that's smart. It might annoy some people, but it's easier on the devs and the fans don't end up with empty feeling updates. It helps though that Team Cherry and From Software are already well known and well liked companies, cause that means the confidence is always there from fans even if the updates aren't. Thing about kickstarter is there's a much more direct line between audience and developers, one that I think the audience can take too far at times ("they OWE me ___") but one that's undoubtedly more complex than non-kickstarter games. I think the nature of that relationship lends itself to more honesty and openness, and you can do that without needing to put out big trailers or gameplay footage. I focused on some bigger updates they could have made, sure, but it would be just as nice if they kept giving 2 month updates on how development was going. It was something they promised and something they delivered for a while, but then they stopped. If they wrote a single paragraph on a new enemy they made, or mentioned they were in the polishing stage, or talked about why the game was taking longer than anticipated, that would be enough, cause it just gives a bit of clarity. If they set up a discord where they could share screenshots and behind the scenes like I've seen a bunch of small games do that would also be great. There's a lot of ways you can engage with your audience without needing to go big, and I think most kickstarter games need to maintain that level of engagement because of the unique scenario crowdfunding creates. People will naturally be more invested and more demanding, which is irritating sometimes (you mentioned a couple times how some peoples attitudes towards kickstarter are a little ridiculous), but it's also what comes with the territory in a sense. Should you buckle to the people who clearly have no idea what they're talking about? Absolutely not. But you should know what environment is created through kickstarter, and that it's crucial to navigate it with care if you want to hold the early fanbase together. You can choose not to navigate it as well, and that doesn't make you evil or wrong, but it does mean you create a more fractured environment like we're seeing with LDI I don't think Little Devil Inside is doomed, nor do I think it's a scam. I can absolutely see a world where it comes out and absolutely blows people away and I'm gonna be so happy if that happens. But like I said at the top of the vid, an emotional response and a logical one can contrast and that's alright. Logically, I get why it's taking so long, I get they can't always send updates, I get the difference between the two games at hand. I hold no ill will towards Neostream, and I hope they're doing good and their game comes out amazing. But emotionally I can't help but to feel a lot less invested than I was before just cause "kickstarter" and "first game" create so many question marks, those questions are still there 7 years after the game was made public. I still care about the game from an arms length, I just haven't been excited in a while, and that's a bummer. Here's hoping that changes closer to release Anyways, I know this wound up being a long response regardless and it was a little messy (I'm actually out and about while writing this so I'm sure some of my points trailed off lmao) but I do think you bring up some good points, and the main difference comes down to that emotional/logical viewpoint. I tried to focus this video on the former, just because I'd noticed the vibe around the game changing over time. Shout out to you for being so respectful in your counterpoints though haha.
@@AsadAnjum I think it makes sense yeah :) I definitely understand your point of view. And you're right that the expectation is different for a KS, the same way you'd expect more updates from an early access game. But even there, it really depends on the game, and some devs are more open than others. As an example I love, Coffee Stain makes regular updates on youtube about Satisfactory, but they also go into their design process, on why they made certain decisions, why they want to ignore other things, etc. Really nice to see stuff like that. I also wonder if sometimes deals with publishers (or in this case Sony) change the way devs communicate on kickstarter, if they need to get approval before making any posts or stuff like that. That's definitely something I wish was more transparent overall. But tbf in LDI's case, they already weren't great at keeping people updated. Anyways, I do agree than even small updates basically saying "we're still alive" would probably go a long way to reassure a lot of people. I definitely hope they know what they're doing and manage to promote the game decently when it's time.
@@Fachewachewa definitely had the thought of Sony's involvement as well. I know Replaced, which is being published by xbox, has a pretty active discord so it's either a Sony specific thing to be more silent or it's Neostream's own choice. I hope they're at least a bit more active with the fanbase in the month or two leading up to the release, but I guess we'll see 🤷♂️
Imitation is the highest form of flattery especially since hollow knight has copied from other Metroidvanias before as well as one of the creators at team cherry is making the game. And for the other, the MC doesn’t look bland by any means
@@bobi_slayer there are much blander concepts out there and again, how this is being executed so far looks and plays incredible so stop being pessimistic already
@@jeffreyali1456 if there are worse it doesn't mean it's good. i am not being pessimistic, i simply dislike the game. mostly because of its visual style. there are some good things like shovel knight, but overall its too much and not pleasant to look at
@@bobi_slayer if there are many games that are far worse then that means this game looks pretty damn good. But at least you said that you personally don’t like the game
There WAS a similar looking game, i.e similar to Hollow Knight, with a stained glass aesthetic called Gleamlight which has come out and was considered pretty mid. Maybe you were thinking of that?
In April of 2019 I backed a board game called Blood on the Clocktower. For $100, I was expecting a lot. However, there were some real red flags: Its box was going to be lined with felt (never done before in a board game), all of the tokens that you punch out will be felt-backed also (yet again, never done before), and the team has never made a board game before it. Now, with my copy of Blood on the Clocktower in my hands, feeling more quality than I could have ever imagined, I will confidently say that I am okay with having a product be delayed so long as we get updates. It makes the eventual product that much more satisfying to have.
A lot of campaigns on kickstarter are on there because the developers/creators are new to the process of making things. I think that makes delays pretty natural and common. As long as you know that going in, you're right, the delays aren't that big of a deal if the team communicates with the backers well. There's a fine line between looking like you're trying to perfect the product and looking like you're being nonchalant, and with the delicate balance on KS I think devs should be constantly aware of that line so they can be on the right side of it. It may not reflect how the game ultimately turns out, but it definitely helps the atmosphere around it
Blood in the Clocktower is both arguably the best party game and the greatest social deduction game ever made. Steven Medway and The Pandemonium Institute should take a bow for truly delivering a wonderful product, despite the constant scrutiny and doubts.
That is a amazing game. Possibly my favorite “board” game.
I’ve been playing blood on the clock tower for the past three years with a print and play version I went all out on.
Little Devil Inside is the type of adventure game I've been looking for.
A shame things turned out the way it did, but a tiny aspect of me is still holding on to hope, and wishing it'll be at least a decent game.
I'm so beyond stoked for Crowsworn!! I absolutely LOVE it's Hollow Knight-esque art style, and basically being a Bloodborne styled game, I'm feeling it'll probably be a masterpiece alongside the best Indies!!
I’m really intrigued by its fast paced combat
Same. Can’t wait!
If Hollow Knight was indie Dark Souls then Crowsworn is indie Bloodborne.
So who’s gonna be indie Sekiro and Elden Ring?
@@Anonymous-73 Indie Sekiro would prolly be Nine Sols
@@KetamineTrip U right
Crowsworn’s development is what I want to strive for when I become a full fledged indie dev.
Seeing more stuff on crowsworn and I feel nothing but regret for not having put faith in it sooner, can’t wait for when it releases. Another great video!!
Little Devil Inside reminds me a lot of the development of Cube World. A game that seemed to have great potential, a great atheistic, but plagued with developers who produced infrequent updates on progress, even years after accumulating larges amounts of money to develop said game
I remember as a lil' annoying goblin that I really wanted Cube World... then it came out and my heart was shattered into pieces.
Cube World was a case of the creators going pretty much silent with making a few posts while making a bunch of changes to an already good base without testing it in any way, shape or form ending up in a final game that made pretty poor changes to it's Alpha version to the point that the Alpha version is the more enjoyable experience. We also had to wait a while for the inferior final game to come out.
I fear that Little Devil Inside might end up the same and it pains me to think so. What has been shown of the game really appeals to me in many levels and I fear the devs will end up making changes without testing them for player "enjoyability" in the first place just like Cube World.
It is to the point that I'd rather have this game never come out than have my heart ripped apart once again the same way Cube World did.
@mr.cobbweb1624 its actually insane to think about that the creator of that game just kept folding like paper whenever the game got some attention, even if it was positive and decided to seclude himself to...just make the game worse because he had no-one to tell him if the idea was a good one. (Next to his wife who probably just said "yeah that seems like a good idea" after he explained why he felt the need to...take away all your progression after every zone)
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure it started as and still is a hobby for him and his wife. His actual job is like a math teacher or professor; it was always weird to me to promote the game like it was a main focus for him and his wife when it really just a little activity they’d do together
I don't understand how you can put out so many well edited videos in such quick succession. Keep doing what you're doing.
Lmao definitely went ham the last few days. Probably the next week or so too if all goes to plan, but August has me pretty busy (and moving) so the uploads will definitely slow down. Always nice to hear you enjoy the editing tho
I don't know a thing about those two games, but wow was this such a well-written and edited video! I cannot believe the rate you put out videos on. I hope this video blows up and your channel grows. This is a great topic and conversation to have.
Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it despite not really knowing the games haha. Always appreciate the kind words, especially from people that have been following my channel for a bit!
The greatest trick the Little Devil Inside ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist.
I just found out about LDI from this video, and I wish I hadn't. It looks so good and I'm sad that it'll probably never come out
Me coming here in 2023 with Little Devil Inside still nowhere in sight
Has there been any updates at all since last year?
@@johnkramer2144 Just now. A trailer came out.
A big Dev should buy Little Devil and take over.
I definitely share the excitement about LDI, but I'm not getting my hopes up too high. The art style is definitely amazing and the gameplay looks incredible, but what little I've heard about its development process gives plenty of reason for concern. They wouldn't be the first team to get too ambitious with a kickstarter game and fail to deliver/live up to expectations.
As for kickstarter itself, I've been on quite the journey with it. I backed my first project in 2012, and wound up backing well over 100 projects over the years. Some turned out great, others not so great, others haven't been delivered yet, or failed entirely. I think maybe a handful of them released on time, and of those, most needed significant updates/changes. The title I've been waiting the longest for is Radio the Universe, which funded almost 10 years ago (January 2013) and is still in development. The playable beta from a couple years ago was pretty great though, so I'm still excited.
I don't back much on KS these days for a variety of reasons. One of the biggest is that most indie games are overpriced on there imo. It used to be that you'd get a significant discount when you back a game on KS, to reflect the fact that you're taking a risk on an incomplete project that might underwhelm or not even release. These days, most indie kickstarters set the base game pledge level at the launch price of most indie games.
Another thing is that it's common practice for developers to not actually ask for the money they need to finish the game. The prevailing wisdom is that you set your funding goal low so that you can exceed it, guaranteeing you some money. If you don't wind up with enough to actually finish the game, you use the money to progress as far as you can, then shop the game around to publishers. There's something inherently dishonest about it, but almost everyone either does it knowingly, or they have no idea how much it actually costs to make games.
Anyway I completely agree with your video. I've seen developers sustain the support and excitement of their community through incredibly extensive delays, and I've seen others lose most of their support almost immediately when things go wrong (even when the things that went wrong were unforeseeable and completely not their fault). There are other factors, like what sort of community coalesces around your project (which is tied to the nature of the project and the supported platforms), but it mostly comes down to attitude and communication. Developers who stay humble and grateful for the support, who communicate openly and honestly even just to drop a note saying they're still alive but don't have much news, or when they have a ton of news but it's all bad; they're the ones who keep their fanbase positive and excited.
100 CAMPAIGNS?? holy lmao
Definitely interesting to hear the opinion of somebody who's been SO involved with KS over the years. Radio the Universe looks really cool, but wow I could not imagine waiting 10+ years for something to get delivered haha.
Interesting points about the overpricing and potentially deceitful wording when it comes to funding. The realities vs the expectations with kickstarter make it pretty hard to pin down, so I totally understand if someone's either an avid backer of projects or if they're completely against it. It would be nice if devs were more transparent about what exactly the money would be used for, or if kickstarter made it much clearer to everyone using the service, but that would also probably hurt their campaign which I guess can lead to a kinda skeevy vibe. I still think I'll try and find a couple good projects every so often to back cause I love the experience I'm getting with Crowsworn, but im gonna be really, really careful when deciding those projects are.
Pricing wise, I guess it's a little confusing cause indie prices can fluxuate so drastically. The discounted-price-for-early-adopters idea seems to have been taken up by Early Access games, although the discount isn't too big. I definitely think the base price for kickstarter projects should be less than the anticipated final price, but personally higher tiers are what interest me. It requires a lot more faith and a lot more research, but some of the perks actually wind up being incredible. Custom steel books, collectibles, specialized locations for thank you notes in-game, it might be kinda stupid to care about those especially for a game that may not be good, and may not even come out to begin with, but if I'm in I wanna be all in.
You mentioned you use KS less nowadays, but are there any projects that really stood out to you recently? You know I'm always looking for smaller, unique games and I feel like KS is a gold mine for those.
@@AsadAnjum Early access offering a smaller discount makes a lot of sense to me, as the risks are lower. You get something immediately, even if it isn't the final game. IMO, the further a game is from completion, the bigger the discount should be since there are greater risks that it won't be completed. A lot of times KS campaigns will claim that you're getting a discount on the final project, but looking at the proposed "regular price" and the type/ambition of the game, I just know that it either won't actually launch at that price, or if it does, it'll sell very poorly and go on deep sales or have permanent price cuts shortly after launch.
I agree that the higher tiers are interesting and can be incredible. That's where pricing becomes completely subjective as far as I'm concerned. The idea of being immortalized in some way in a game that you wind up loving is pretty awesome. Even just getting unique limited merch. It can really make you feel like you're a part of something. I've done that a decent number of times, with somewhat mixed results, and there have definitely been projects where I just got the base game and later regretted not going for one of the higher tiers.
Regarding KS project budgets, many projects will put some sort of pie chart in that supposedly shows where the money will go, but I rarely trust those for videogames. Game development is generally far too complex to be able to budget like that with any sort of accuracy.
And as for Radio the Universe, and all other long overdue projects, I've gotten to a zen like state about it. I'm excited every time I see something new, but I'm not impatient at all about how long it's taking. In that project's case, I've got a playable Beta that's a large section of the game, so even if it fails, I got my money's worth. It's a single person developing it, and the funding they received was fully spent years ago. I'm just glad he's still working on it, as many other people would have quit by now.
Honestly I haven't backed a videogame kickstarter in quite a while. I still look at them from time to time, but I've got such an insane backlog of games (including many KS projects that I haven't gotten around to playing yet), and such a list of KS projects that still haven't delivered, that I can't justify spending more money on them. I'm occasionally tempted into backing a tabletop RPG project, but in some ways my backlog for those is worse. Much fewer games, but the chances of convincing a group to play them are much smaller than my chances of playing a videogame. Sorry I couldn't offer any recommendations. I'll try to remember to point out any campaigns I stumble across going forward. I'd actually checked out the campaign you mentioned in the video. Looks like it has some promise.
been waiting for the full 7 years
Crowsworn had me extremely sceptical at first. Even still it looks staggeringly similar to hollow knight. But every time I get to see more of it I have more and more faith in it
And now Crowsworn has dropped a full demo and its so so good
Thanks to you I found out about kloa child of the forest and pledged to them I can't wait to play the demo at the end of the year this game really reminded me of hyper light drifter and that game is very dear to me
Glad you liked it enough to go back it! Hopefully it turns out as good as it has the potential to be
I was lucky enought to catch the Crowsworn kickstarter when it was live and have been following every update since and the epicness of this game excites me!
As someone who’s 0/3 on all the projects I’ve backed, it’s nice to see to a success story for once.
Great video! We also have the Crowsworn “demo” now!
The biggest reg flag is that Neostream Interactive has no social media or showcase to the public eye, something that seems very simple to do. We don't know who runs the studio, any of the programmers/developers, or any inside look into the development. I've heard some say that the game might not even exist and just contains cutscenes and looking more closely at trailers, that really seems like all were getting....
I found your videos on this game only recently.
Hi, I'm an original kickstarter backer for the LDI back in 2015. And yes, South Korea is a real country I live in(referencing your other video.)
I was once a fairly eager kickstarter backer with some successful outcomes.
Until I threw my cash in this project and another one called Pixel Princess Blitz. Oh, boy. Both LDI and PPB taught me how not to believe in so called indie devs.
They were the same cases. South Korean indie devs with tangible timeline and something shiny, already ongoing project to show off, just enough to make many people fell for it.
And then, miss their schedules by several years, abandon entire update, complete silence and move on with all the money.
I'm mad remembering it, but trying to move on.
But they did left me a big scar. I left kickstarter platform. Never want to touch it again.
Well it's not only due to their scams. It's about how the platform manages them.
I filed several complaints to the company for lack of info updates and communications, which is a violation of their terms of services. Kickstarter only gave lukeworm answer and nothing changed.
Later, when LDI got announced in PS conference, it got worse. Many backers, me included, backed the project cause it was announced as a multi-platform game. During the conference, it was announced that the game is PS exclusive.
So even if the game isn't scam, since I backed for a PC version, I won't get the game anyway. This fulfills the criteria for asking refund in their ToS, so I filed another set of complaints to both kickstarter and supposed-devs. Nothing happened. I checked many other PC version backers. They got the same result. Nothing.
I have no confidence in how this platform works. I advise people to stay away.
Have a nice day. Hope you never get scammed like me.
Great video and such good quality, Subbed! And you deserve waaaay more subs :)
"frequent updates"
Team Cherry: 🤐
so much effort in this video great work keep it up. I'm really excited for crowsworn
Uh, I’m probably more excited than you and the backers for this masterpiece
I backed Everspace 1 + 2, and really liked how it went so far. I also backed Krita, and even though I don't use it often, it's also quite nice.
Little Devil Inside looks really magical. I'd certainly be disappointed waiting 9 years for it.
speaking about communication and time since announcement 'cough cough' Hollow Knight Silksong
What a great channel ! There is depth and the videos are not to long. I feel Skill up vibes and I think it's on purpuse. Best of luck on youtube !
I’m so excited for Crowsworn!
Huh, during the first segment (Kickstarter), you sounded like your mic was broken. Still, fantastic video. Worth watching c:
This vid showed up in my recommendations today, probably cause of the Crowsworn demo hype. So I'm happy to say that Crowsworn is still going strong
7:20....People need to understand the difference between ripping something off vs. being inspired by something... not everything with similarities is a rip-off
"the crowsworn demo takes 2 minutes to beat"
speedruners: 39 seconds
Hitless speed runs of it are so satisfying
@@AsadAnjum oh btw a fun fact: u can activate subtitles by pressing f9, only works when u started the demo
Frequent updates that let backers know the devs didnt run out with the money matter more than respecting a deadline in my opinion. I don't care if the game takes longer to come out if that means the quality will go up, but that only works as long as i know the devs are still working on it.
I've backed crowsworn and i'm incredibly hyped for it! Not enough to get access to the demo, but the frequent updates and trailers have still been keeping my hype up.
Been waiting for LDI hoping it comes soon, when it comes I hope it's worth the wait. Thanks for the updates your more consistent then the devs they should hire you as marketing XD
No way these mad lads did Bloodborne Cart before Michael Zaki.
Most people don't care about kickstarter and release dates so i wouldn't say LDI has anything to worry about. It was shown on some big events before and it's more than enough to get a chance to blown up on release (like Stray) or just have some decent sales and reception
I'm sure it'll be fine in the end, but I also think it does hurt to alienate some of the most excited fans. I guess impatience plays a role from the audience end, and maybe once it's out that whole group of people will do a 180 and love the game, but I definitely feel this sense of deflation whenever I interact with a lot of the backers/fans on the discord, reddit, etc. They used to be super annoyed at the game which I always found to be a bit much, but now most don't even care to talk about it and a bunch feel like the games not even gonna come out. Maybe being in those specific groups gives off a different vibe than the general public, but at the very least Neostream has bummed out a lot of people in this process, and the already existing fanbase that was growing for this kinda splintered and fell apart. Like I said though, I still think it can be incredible, and I really really hope it is (seeing a Stray-like response would be amazing)
This video was so well made wow!
Thanks man! Crazy timing, I actually just found your channel yesterday haha. I was gonna comment on one of your videos, but might as well do it here- it's pretty nuts how frequently it looks like you're putting out content. I thought I was fast but damn you're putting out ~10 minute videos every 2 days or something. I really liked your endgame video, and I know firsthand how much time it takes to make videos about big overarching topics with appropriate examples, so the fact you put those videos out as often as you do is really impressive. Keep doing what you're doing, it's clearly working, from what I've seen you've absolutely skyrocketed this past month and you deserve it!
LDI was supposed to come out for Wii U.
Let that sink in.
P.S I get the same vibes as I did with BG&E 2 and Star Citizen. Extremely ambitious and probably won't ever come out
Let this be a lesson. Perfect is the enemy of done.
Optics are super important. As a new indie developer, that’s what I care about most. Bad optics kills games.
Good video. Definitely excited for LDI and have been checking for updates weekly for the past 2 years. I'm hopeful that it will be great when it comes out. That being said, I compare the development to a game like Biomutant. It seemed like Biomutant went through a long development cycle before finally coming out. Just hope LDI is worth the wait. Thanx again for the vid.
Still holding out for little devil inside
I'm not a game dev, not am I related to the industry in any way shape or form, so idk if I have any right to put my opinion forware, but I feel like a common trend among some indie dev is a growing need to make their games bigger the more support they raise, when a game of smaller scale, bolstered by free expansions, could really help them deal with the problem of making a product that will seemingly never release due to various reasons (new consoles, engines, mechanics, personal time delays on the part of the developers etc.). Why not release a great, albeit smaller game, then take your time expanding on it while working on a new project, this time as an established and perhaps even beloved indie darling?
So on the topic of bad kickstarts, I have a freind who backed the game Edge of Space. If you don't know what it is, it was supposed to be a game similar to Terraria and Starbound and even had a crossover with Terraria. A demon was released pretty early on... but that's where it ends. That's becuase the main people behind the project took the money and RAN, leaving both the backers and the developers in the dark. For every Kickstarter project that fails, there's very few i've heard about on the game side that turns into actual theft.
Crowsworn just drop a special demo so the game is still going but devil has just disappeared it a shame
I personally lost all interest in LDI when i saw the map. I was expecting an Open World game but I feel it's gonna be something else.
The game doesn't have fast travel, and I think that's why the map is the way it is. The world is supposed to be huge and most areas are going to be open (according to the descriptions the teams given) but they also didn't want to incorporate fast travel since journeying around is a major part of the game. I feel like the map is their way of hitting a middle point- you still have to physically go everywhere but with the different perspective you can move faster. I think it'll come down to how it's implemented- is it my choice to go to map mode during open world areas? Does the game do it automatically with you unable to enter normal 3rd person mode between certain locations? Depending on which one it ends up being it can be a solid addition or kind of weigh the game down. Guess we'll see 🤷♂️
just like how the hollow knight silksong devs have been radio silent for ages, i check in with the silksong news account every day and it has been months even years since we've heard anything
I'm still waiting... been following since 2018
I was so excited for LDI. But it's clear now that it's just not going to come out. No project gets delayed this often and releases in any form of what was promised, so even if (and it's not likely) LDI does release at some point in the future, it'll be so cut down that anyone who saw any promotional material will feel like they were lied to.
Does anyone remember EITR? whatever happened with that one...
its alive
Been waiting for LDI from the start also and soo love it and fan but... Soo don't understand the silence behind it all. Could it be when they decided to move from Unity to UE5? Just all seems weird that they have gone all silent on us all. The game looks close to complete and it was suppost to be released a couple years back, so wonder what it could look like now. Just soo confused and sad about it. They don't even reply to your emails from their website
Little Devil Inside? Now that's aname I havent heard in a long while...
I can't even fathom how people who funded radio the universe feel rn, im will keep waiting indefinitely for that game
I gave up on Little Devil Inside. I honestly don’t think it’s ever coming out at this point.
On a slightly unrelated note... Are we sure silk song wasn't just a mass hallucination? I swear it isnt real
there is a very cool indie game in development that looks like little devil inside, its called "We Kill Monsters"
I heard a quote a long time ago (Forgive me cause I might just butcher this quote.) But the death of an art/media isn't when people are mad at it, its when Apathy fully takes over. cause apathy leads to indifference, and indifference leads to completely forgetting it.
i just looked at the thumbnail before clicking this video and immediately think LDI is the one in trouble and Crowsworn is the beloved one. Mind you i only watched the trailer and said "neat" to both of them so i dunno about this Kickstarter drama and all that shebang.
and i am right this time around...... huh..... neat.....
Only game i’ve ever backed is called the last faith. A souls like side scroller. Game is still in the works but it’s looking amazing if your a souls fan check it out.
Been excited for that game for a while, didn't actually know it was a kickstarter project. I think it comes out this month so not much longer to wait
From the moment I saw the trailer in the ps5 showcase I knew I had to play this game. Im content with waiting as long as possible for it to release but I feel for the backers and investors about the lack comms from the devs. Maybe Sony wants to avoid another No Man's Sky situation where they picked up a small team and overhyped an unfinished product. Hopefully they get their shit together and release it or let it go multiplat so it can be enjoyed everywhere.
On one hand I’m afraid this game will be like Cube World. And the other I hope it’s like Darksiders. When DS3 came out I was so happy to see one my underrated games getting a 3rd, but a reason, also why I never learned until then there wasn’t a game after DS2 was because THQ went bankrupt. And so for like 5-6 years I’ve been waiting for a game that could have never came to fruition.
i literally check everyday for new info on Little Devil Inside. i swear ill be married with kids before this game comes out. I'd also like to add that comparing the dev time of these 2 games is rather unfair imo. One is a 3D semi open world action RPG with many more mechanics aswell as a supposed Co-op mode. The other is a 2D metroidvania. Obviously one is going to be made faster than the other. But to contradict my own statement, Hollow Knight Silksong has been in development for like 5 years now and still no release and it also a 2D metroidvania so idk lol.
still mourning LDI... it looked and sounded so fucking cool
Hey asad, this comment is late asf but i was also a huge fan of little devil inside when it was first announced. Is there any talk of the game from the devs still? Thanks
Little Devil Inside STILL has no official release date LOL
Did you enjoy the 2 year anniversary update from the Crowsworn devs? There was a new trailer and a beta demo for Kickstarter backers.
Absolutely. Demo was great, the fact that they made it cut content to avoid spoiling main game stuff is awesome, nothing but good things to say about that game so far
@@AsadAnjum
Will you make a new video about the latest trailer and the beta demo?
@@l.n.3372 no I don't think so. I'm in the middle of a move rn and quite a lot of work is piling up so I have a very particular schedule I'm trying to keep, not sure if a small demo update would fit in that. I'll probably do some coverage on the game closer to its release, maybe some dev interviews if I can get a hold of em
I personally hope LDI is such a hard loss that people will maybe realize they shouldn’t do what they did and that the consumers do actually deserve updates or for them to do their jobs. Pre purchasing games honestly just sets people up to not care as much in my opinion
little devil inside? i forgot that existed, gotta say its like learning about a new Ps1 game while im playing ps3
It is a game left behind by time by its own mitsakes. I wish I could feel bad for the devs but I only feel bad for people who funded the game
my Crowsworn is nine sols. very similar to Crowsworn
Nine sols looks amazing, really excited for it to come out. Great demo too
I'm a backer from the original Kickstarter, ive let go of the money i paid but i still get pissed everytime i hear something new about the game that they will post pretty much anywhere but kickstarter. Which, granted, is like maybe once a year. it's been 3 years since they posted an update on KS. They could have just said "hi, stuffs still happening, here's a pic of a corgi" once in a while and we would have been good but I doubt anyone I in the KS still trusts neostream.
What tier did you funded in crowsworn?
I backed it on KS in 2015. They never responded to ANY of the complaints about the delays. For the backers of this project, it's not about the disappointment, but simply their rude and irresponsible behavior. Then while ignoring all the backers, they were just showcasing it, and releasing more demos!
I have backed other unsuccessful projects on KS too, where the team either cannot make it or it's a scam, and they go home. Little Devil Inside team keep ignoring the backers and demo their misachievements for years!!!
I don't know if the game will be released ever, but I'm not going to play it. I cannot forget how rude and irresponsible the team have been.
crowsworn should be releasing sometime between september and december of this year (2023 for future reference) and LDI still has no definitive release date in sight 🙃
Hi. I am a huge Crowsworn fan and am typing this comment on (June 12 / 2024). Crowsworn update: As of now the devs are still hard at work creating a masterpeice. Though the game has been delayed past the origional realease year of 2023 I believe it is due to raising over $1,000,000 dollars. Since they greatly surpassed their origional goal of 125,000 dollars and meeting every milestone for the game! Including but not limited to [ nightmare mode , voice acting , Isles of vladar free DLC , fully animated cinematic cut sceans , and A whole alternate ending questline! ]. Adding this much prestinley high quality extra content ( which by the way they had no idea they would be able to get the funds to create all this extra content when they started the kickstarter, hence why they set the release for 2023) takes a lot of time. With all that said, I predict Crowsworn will release (3rd or 4th quarter 2025) or (1st or 2nd quarter 2026 at the absolute latest!)
All who read this in the future give me an update whether I was right or not. Thanks future person!
Crowsworn will be out before Silksong.
I backed a physical release of glacias a webtoon i loved a ez 10/10 story and art..... Its been 3 years 150$ max level backer i got a custom art piece BUT am missing everything else and they claim the factor and covid screwed them over
Really well made video! Great job.
but... 7:15 I think thats like one more zero added to what they aimed for... thats 10 times not 1000 times. or maybe Im getting it wrong am tired.
Mate, he said 1000% not 1000 times. 1000% is 10 times
Never preorder or kickstart anything… always wait until the actual release.
I would say only the "don't preorder" is absolutely correct, as games available for pre-order are already Gonna ship, regardless of you giving them money. Kickstarter is a bit different, as your money can make the difference between shipping and not shipping. I would say to just do research before committing to a kickstarter.
Little Devil Inside definitely isn't a scam. It's way too ambitious and lovingly crafted to be a scam. It's clearly a passion project that means a lot to the devs. But that is also its detriment. It seems like that the devs are too ambitious and perfectionist. The project became too large for them to handle. Either they ran into development issues and aren't able to finish it, or they ran out of money.
It's south korea developers so I am not surprised if these turn out to be a scam.
games take time relax
10 years isn't the norm. Especially for an indie.
@@Antwannnn yes it is
@@buboito it's really not.
I don't get it. Everyone's so upset when developers rush a game out half baked. But then they also get upset when developers push back release dates to make sure the game's finished. Pick a lane. Take as much time as you need. I'll buy this game whenever it comes out.
I’m gonna give you my apple for lunch, in like 10 minutes. HAH jokes, I actually gotta buy it first so you’ll have to wait an hour actually.
Needless to say, setting expectations and then repeatedly falling below them isn’t a good look. Not to mention the games with the MOST DELAYS are the ones where they’re half baked and jank on full release. Are we just gonna forget the fact cyberpunk 2077 had 3+ delays and was in development for almost a decade?
One delay is understandable. Two is worrisome. Three or more is a sign that something is wrong fundamentally
@@Junya01 Lol these are facts. It's difficult to reconcile the time necessary to produce a quality product and the pressures from cooperate to get a return on investment. My mentality is you'll make more money if you release a game that isn't immediately torn apart for being unfinished. Cyberpunk is a perfect example. I waited for reviews and now I'll never buy it. But on the flipside there's Baldur's Gate. When it came out people loved it. Word of mouth spreads quickly in the gaming community. I don't think there's a coincidence between Nintendo's consistency with releasing finished products and their massive success. I've just chosen not so support studios anymore that are comfortable releasing unfinished games. And it's an industry that's allowed to get away with it. If I went to McDondals and got a piece of bread with some cheese on it, it'd understandably be unacceptable. But for some reason game developers are allowed to do it over and over again. I just think it's gotten out of hand and the community can correct it by not buying unfinished products. Each dollar is a vote. If we keep giving them our votes, it's never gonna change.
Is it just me or LDI seems like it's too much ? Especially for an independent game
Came back here just after the new trailer for Little Devil Inside got released. The game is still alive ! You can check its new trailer here : ua-cam.com/video/8uZcUTK15rg/v-deo.html
A year after this video... Playstation Store: "Release date to be determined," lol, rude.
Waited 8 years for scorn and it was neutered and sterile and a empty husk of a game.
They could have dropped a dud and just patch it to relevance
Thing is though the games are different scopes.
LDI is a Unreal Engine 3rd Person Shooter with multiplayer. Crowsworn is a single player 2D Unity3D metroidvania.
So the ability to do community engagememt on larger project really depends on having someone do it as a job role, or as a hobby unpaid role.
I'd rather they save the money and show work when they have quality work to show.
Me too
Kickstarter is investing but with no chance of ever making money
Soon xd
alternatively, silksong and blasphemous
I completely and respectfully disagree :D
I think my issue is that you're applying standard communication principle to a kickstarter campaign, and comparing two games that are in two completely different environment.
Crownsworn was basically done when it did its kickstarter, that's the kind of game that's looking for additional funding to complete its development. Plus it's in a very know genre with easily (it's very relative) planned deadlines. If the kickstarter didn't succeed, the game would have existed anyways, probably thanks to a publisher.
LDI is indeed the opposite here, it's a game that didn't exist past some pretty broad concepts, and it used kickstarter as... a kickstart. If you compare the two game, the amount of money LDI got is absurd, and that's not even taking into account the ambitions of LDI, which basically tried to create an entirely new game, with new design problems to solve. I backed it at the time knowing full well what it meant, and people who backed it and are mad *are* wrong. Yeah you can get fooled by a KS campaign, but that's not the case here, it's people expecting things based on their own ideas of how things work. And sure, the LDI team doesn't communicate a lot but that's also entirely fine? People use KS as a preorder, but think they're owed everything in return.
If they can't recognize when a game has potential but still need a lot of work, or that 300k is NOTHING, I'm sorry but that's on them. I often see people get mad when studios sign a deal with a publisher after doing a kickstarter, and it's baffling to me. It's literally caller "kickstarter", not "fundthetotalityofaproject".
Anyways, back on subject. I don't think LDI is a failure yet. From what we've seen with Sony, it would really need to be one of the biggest lies in gaming to still be a scam or a fake game. Maybe it'll disappoint, but that can happen with every game. And on a communication standpoint, it's like those games that are announced when development starts (something like KH3 or Bayonetta 3 for example), and people get crazy because they're used to game being announced 1 to 2 years max before release, with very controlled marketing, even though everything is mostly fine.
I also think that's an issue with games announced in Sony events, people always tend to see them as way bigger than they are, because of Sony's focus on visual fidelity. But most of the time small project don't have the resources to communicate constantly about their game and remind everyone that the game exists and is still in the works. I know some still manage to do it, but that doesn't mean it's not a lot of work.
What I do think though, having backed like 10 video games, is that if you're doing your work before giving money to a kickstarter campaign, you won't get outright scammed. Project can fail and never happen but that's usually outside of anyone's control. What you can see is what's presented by the team (gameplay, ideas, prototypes), what's promised (realase, stretch goals, stuff like that is often a good indication of how unrealistic some projects are), and what's the focus. Like, the bigger games that ruined KS's popularity were the game attached to big names, like Mighty N9 or Shenmue 3, even though their campaigns were terrible, while smaller game that didn't get as much press coverage but with extremely solid campaigns ended up being huge successes.
But yeah, I know the video is mostly about how a team communicates about their game, and I don't see this being an issue, at least not on the devs side. It's just the way we're used to see games talked about, and some games are more compatible with that than others. Sure teams can always share what they're doing, but how many studios dare to share stuff that doesn't look final? Skate did this and... that's about it. Most other studios like to slap a "pre alpha footage" disclaimer on their almost final gameplay just to be sure people won't get mad.
I know people tend to think a game is cancelled if there's no news for 6 months, and I can understand how it's a feeling that's even more present for kickstarters but... it's not like it's changing anything. Your money is gone and the game isn't out. If it comes out you get it, if not you can keep forgetting about it. When I give money to a kickstarter, I hope the devs will do everything they can to make the best game possible, the updates are optional, especially if they take resources from the game. Plus I'm sure the devs would love to talk about the game too, it's not like they're keeping secrets just to be mean.
Indie devs also don't have the same expectations, and usually they have one shot at really making a marketing push. So they pretty much need to wait for the game to be ready to make sure the marketing fits their timeline. They can't afford being CDPR and delaying the game multiple times while still maintaining full media attention the whole time.
But I also understand being kind of burned out on hype for some games that takes too long, to the point of apathy. I think it's something you just end up accepting at some point. In the end the hype itself doesn't change what the game is, even though sometimes it can be pretty fun.
Okay, that was a lot of rambling, and I know some of it isn't the focus of the video, but I do think the concepts are relevant.
Anyways, I still enjoyed the video, that an interesting subject. Keep it up 👍
First off, I appreciate you coming through with such a fleshed out view on the subject, especially since it differs from mine. I always like seeing different takes in the comments. That said I don't think I can tackle everything you said individually just cause I also tend to ramble and it'd for sure take 2 hours to respond haha.
I do agree with the majority of your points here, whether related to the video or otherwise. The general atmosphere around kickstarter, the fact that it's not an end-all-be-all of funding, doing your research on a campaign can pretty easily protect you from a scam if you're not trying to blind yourself with hype, all that. I also agree that this specific comparison is a little flawed, which I mentioned near the end of the vid, saying the difference in funding, ambition and timeline on top of neostream being completely new to this makes it hard to directly apply one games actions to the other. Although I guess I also blurred that point when I gave examples of what crowsworn did for it's backers and mentioned that LDI hadn't done anything similar, so that's sorta on me. I think the one thing I disagree with was that I was looking at it like a normal game and not necessarily a kickstarter game, cause I definitely made a distinction between the two in my head.
I've talked about it once or twice but I actually like that games like silksong and elden ring (for about 2 years there) decide to keep quiet until they have something major to show. I think that's smart. It might annoy some people, but it's easier on the devs and the fans don't end up with empty feeling updates. It helps though that Team Cherry and From Software are already well known and well liked companies, cause that means the confidence is always there from fans even if the updates aren't. Thing about kickstarter is there's a much more direct line between audience and developers, one that I think the audience can take too far at times ("they OWE me ___") but one that's undoubtedly more complex than non-kickstarter games. I think the nature of that relationship lends itself to more honesty and openness, and you can do that without needing to put out big trailers or gameplay footage.
I focused on some bigger updates they could have made, sure, but it would be just as nice if they kept giving 2 month updates on how development was going. It was something they promised and something they delivered for a while, but then they stopped. If they wrote a single paragraph on a new enemy they made, or mentioned they were in the polishing stage, or talked about why the game was taking longer than anticipated, that would be enough, cause it just gives a bit of clarity. If they set up a discord where they could share screenshots and behind the scenes like I've seen a bunch of small games do that would also be great. There's a lot of ways you can engage with your audience without needing to go big, and I think most kickstarter games need to maintain that level of engagement because of the unique scenario crowdfunding creates. People will naturally be more invested and more demanding, which is irritating sometimes (you mentioned a couple times how some peoples attitudes towards kickstarter are a little ridiculous), but it's also what comes with the territory in a sense. Should you buckle to the people who clearly have no idea what they're talking about? Absolutely not. But you should know what environment is created through kickstarter, and that it's crucial to navigate it with care if you want to hold the early fanbase together. You can choose not to navigate it as well, and that doesn't make you evil or wrong, but it does mean you create a more fractured environment like we're seeing with LDI
I don't think Little Devil Inside is doomed, nor do I think it's a scam. I can absolutely see a world where it comes out and absolutely blows people away and I'm gonna be so happy if that happens. But like I said at the top of the vid, an emotional response and a logical one can contrast and that's alright. Logically, I get why it's taking so long, I get they can't always send updates, I get the difference between the two games at hand. I hold no ill will towards Neostream, and I hope they're doing good and their game comes out amazing. But emotionally I can't help but to feel a lot less invested than I was before just cause "kickstarter" and "first game" create so many question marks, those questions are still there 7 years after the game was made public. I still care about the game from an arms length, I just haven't been excited in a while, and that's a bummer. Here's hoping that changes closer to release
Anyways, I know this wound up being a long response regardless and it was a little messy (I'm actually out and about while writing this so I'm sure some of my points trailed off lmao) but I do think you bring up some good points, and the main difference comes down to that emotional/logical viewpoint. I tried to focus this video on the former, just because I'd noticed the vibe around the game changing over time. Shout out to you for being so respectful in your counterpoints though haha.
@@AsadAnjum I think it makes sense yeah :) I definitely understand your point of view. And you're right that the expectation is different for a KS, the same way you'd expect more updates from an early access game. But even there, it really depends on the game, and some devs are more open than others. As an example I love, Coffee Stain makes regular updates on youtube about Satisfactory, but they also go into their design process, on why they made certain decisions, why they want to ignore other things, etc. Really nice to see stuff like that.
I also wonder if sometimes deals with publishers (or in this case Sony) change the way devs communicate on kickstarter, if they need to get approval before making any posts or stuff like that. That's definitely something I wish was more transparent overall. But tbf in LDI's case, they already weren't great at keeping people updated.
Anyways, I do agree than even small updates basically saying "we're still alive" would probably go a long way to reassure a lot of people. I definitely hope they know what they're doing and manage to promote the game decently when it's time.
@@Fachewachewa definitely had the thought of Sony's involvement as well. I know Replaced, which is being published by xbox, has a pretty active discord so it's either a Sony specific thing to be more silent or it's Neostream's own choice. I hope they're at least a bit more active with the fanbase in the month or two leading up to the release, but I guess we'll see 🤷♂️
You talk so fast I thought this was the Rap God video
Bro jumped from one hype train to another and felt like he had to make a video about it. Oh, the consoomer mind...
Hah.
crowsworn got 2 problems - it tries to copy HK, and it has so stupid and absolutely bland main character that it cuts off any interest for that game
Imitation is the highest form of flattery especially since hollow knight has copied from other Metroidvanias before as well as one of the creators at team cherry is making the game. And for the other, the MC doesn’t look bland by any means
@@jeffreyali1456 mc is a plague doctor with guns fighting zombies, its the blandest thing you can ever produce
@@bobi_slayer there are much blander concepts out there and again, how this is being executed so far looks and plays incredible so stop being pessimistic already
@@jeffreyali1456 if there are worse it doesn't mean it's good. i am not being pessimistic, i simply dislike the game. mostly because of its visual style. there are some good things like shovel knight, but overall its too much and not pleasant to look at
@@bobi_slayer if there are many games that are far worse then that means this game looks pretty damn good. But at least you said that you personally don’t like the game
i feel like i was thrown into an alternative universe again, i swear crowsworn came out and was considered mid
It’s not out
There WAS a similar looking game, i.e similar to Hollow Knight, with a stained glass aesthetic called Gleamlight which has come out and was considered pretty mid. Maybe you were thinking of that?