Yeah you really should only attribute that kind of credit to auteurs like Kojima or Sam Lake because the game would literally not be how it is without then. Even then, it takes a whole team to make their visions a thing.
@@Willified more than that. 1.3.5 was meant to be final too, and I even think the ones before as well. At one point in time mechs were meant to be the last boss and wings were a postgame item, isn't that crazy
Dead Cells had a good run, and the developer who handled the support, Evil Empire, did a great job. I hope they give the same love to their next game, The Rogue Prince of Persia. I'm also looking forward to Windblown.
did you know? the game has a build of a "final farewell" update that's been stuck in beta since before the announcement of them ending updates? You can still access it and fully completes the feature set by adding a few new routes so that players can finally take both parts of the castlevania dlc in a single run, even if they're going for late game dracula's castle instead of early game. I wish this update could be finished off and finally come to console but that's not likely at this point lol
Huh I actually didn't know about that. Yeah there's definitely some stuff that was scrapped late and left on the table which is part of what makes all of this so weird to begin with
@@AsadAnjum The original comment is just talking about "The End is Near," those routing changes are part of the update. There has been a statement issued that the update will fully release, but nobody is optimistic at this point. It's been in beta for around 8 months now.
am i going crazy or did they have a steam page and everything for the final farewell dlc because i swear i remember them announcing it and saying it will be the last major dlc
Just the other day I was wondering if they actually released that "End is Near" update. It seemed very controversial because of the curse mobs that follow you around, and all the curse weapons that seem useless. But wow, it seems like forever since I've saw any info on that, I really thought it was in the game already.
It is not a "final farewell" update. The update was made before EE got removed from development. It was in no way meant to be the final update as there still was a full year of content planned. Please edit the comment in some way, as it's currently misinformation.
As far as the theseus paradox, ive always made sure not to trust a "from the creators of" tagline since its one of the most overused taglines especially in cinema, and when they say that 9/10 times its JUST the director. Never the screenplay writer, or dialog writers
good example of this was Back 4 Blood trailer, it had the tagline "From creators of Left 4 Dead 2" but in the official credits you can find inside the game, only 4 people out of like a hundered were from Turtlerock Studios and worked on L4D2
@nu_kercat1 Modern Bioware is another example. Barely anyone who worked there during the Golden Age of Baldur's Gate II to Dragon Age Origins still works there. So, while the new Dragon Age game is technically developed by the same studio, it has only a handful of people that worked on the original game.
@BiggestGal Funnily enough, The Outer Wilds did have a large amount of the team that worked on New Vegas. I'm not sure if the team just didn't have enough time or they simply failed to meet expectations. Either way, it serves a different lesson. Expecting one masterpiece after another is unrealistic.
This trailer actually came out after I recorded this video which is why it doesn't get a mention, but yeah I noticed that (it's by Sebastian Bernard, who I mentioned in the video. Funny how that all works out haha)
Imo, that one is legit. It's made by the original designer (Sebastian Bernard, mentioned above) of dead cells who left to spin up his own thing. I played his other game nuclear blaze (also marketed similarly) and it was decent enough.
Hey there, I've been pretty involved in the Dead Cells community for several years and have been very much in the weeds of all this drama. The veteran community all hates Motion Twin now and most people I know will be boycotting Windblown. Here's a few bits of more "insider" info that you didn't catch (by no fault of your own). I can tell you with 100% certainty that there were more updates planned. The next update after u35 (The End is Near), was supposed to overhaul the experience for new players. This directly goes against the "The game is finished, adding more will bloat it" narrative that MT is trying to push. There was an entire new DLC planned by EE that MT forced them to can because of the development cancellation. It was still in early development stages but would mean at least one more major update to the game. A very recent point that came up involves the animated show. That's its own can of worms so I'll just refer to what's relevant here. Evil Empire is entirely absent from the credits on the ADN release (French website) and, more damning, has their company name hastily blurred out of the credits for the UA-cam release of the first episode. This lends even more credence to the idea that MT is trying to quietly shuffle EE out of the way so they can retain the title of "creators of DC." Edit: Forgot to mention that the community manager/ marketing person was changed from "Matt" to someone who goes by "XYZ" on the official Dead Cells discord right before update 35/3.5 hit beta. It doesn't seem very logical to have someone else take over that role just to announce the release of the u35 beta. This also suggests that a lot more was planned. None of that besides the show credits thing is really widely known and that happened a few days ago, so this video covers basically everything possible. Overall, this was an amazingly well-researched video that I will be sharing around the DC community as much as possible.
I could have really used that overhauled experience update; I bought the game way back and just had a hell of a time getting into it; so I shelved it and never looked back. As for MT, and having been interested in WindBlown; I'll be boycotting Windblown. "What do we owe our communities? Nothing." Then they don't deserve our money, period.
I was really wondering why dead cell’s life support just got severed so suddenly. it really blows this is how it has to go, i was really looking forward to whatever evil empire had in mind
Let me say as someone that played the DLCs and paid close attention to the game during its full lifetime, Evil Empire did such a good job (atualization, balance, DLC, and collabs). To me they do deserve credit too as creators they did a lot for the game and put their heart and love into it (if you have the DLCs the game basicaly triple in content, and has some of the best content in my opinion, so they did a lot...). I bleeds me to see the resentifullness
Yeah man, I still can't get over it. At least it had a good and long run. I used to play it on switch (the worst possible console to play it on) and it was optimized so well (after that console fps update) that I didn't feel the need to change to another console. Plus the dlcs were so cheap (especially with the bundles and everything being on sale most of the time). I alr had my ten bucks saved for that last dlc 🥲
I used to be a giant dead cells fan, I put over 900 hours in the game. I 100%ed it every update, at some point even had two save files that were 100%ed. I got all achivments, I beat the game on the hardest difficulty hitless. Went through the tens of hours of grinding the hardest things possible in the game such as the boss rush. It used to be my favorite game of all time, I played I since 2020 and this was Soul crushing. Motion twin made dead cells but evil empire MADE dead cells, the game would be nowhere near how good it is without them. Every single update better and better, weapons being cooler and even more fun and satisfying to use. When I saw windblown was "made by the team behind dead cells" I got justifyingly, very excited and I thought I would buy it day one but after all of this, more and more coming out about MT I think I won't get it. I was already thinking of buying the price of Persia game but I'm definitely getting it to support EE, they don't deserve this and it is a shame what MT did to them. Let alone a shame that MT made dead cells instead of them, literally putting away an incredible game that could be even better, served on a silver platter away from their hands. And the fact that the EE logo and name is blurred out of the credits of the dead cells animated show is a disgrace and whoever was behind it should be ashamed. (the show sucks btw and does not have the essence or lore of dead cells)
One of the first gaming experiences my second cousin has was sitting on my lap "playing" Dead Cells. As in I found the giant hammer weapon and he mashed attack whilst I desperately tried to dodge so we didn't die. Years later he still remembers playing that game with me. Video games are art and art has real power over people. It's so disgusting to see MT treat the game like this.
Personally for me I always thought EE was the creators of dead cells because of how The Rouge PoP looks basically like dead cells as opposed to windblown which totally looks like a whole new thing
While I'm still absolutely LIVID that Microsoft closed down Arkane Austin, the team that made Prey, the best immersive sim, stealth, cosmic horror experience ever... well fect of the matter is MOST of the team that ACTUALLY developed Prey left BECAUSE of the development of Redfall. Even if Microsoft lifted their finger, delayed the game, reorganized and saved that sinking ship, if it turned out to be a BANGER title, that team would still be gone.
Prey is pretty good but it’s definitely not the best immersive sim ever. Maybe the best of the past decade (not that there’s much competition), but it definitely pales compared to OG Deus Ex
The gaming community tends to put a lot of stock in company names when we should be paying more attention to the actual people attached to these projects. People have wondered why games like Suicide Squad and Redfall came out in the state they were in when they are made by such prolific studios, but one look at the list of major staff involved with these projects and comparing it to that of those older, better games reveals exactly what happened. But by that same token, just because one big name changes studios doesn't mean their new game is gonna be like their previous work. Kojima fans followed him to his new studio and many love Death Stranding and attribute it to him being freed from Konami, but some seem to forget it wasn't just him, a huge chunk of his studio is also former Konami staff.
redfall doesn't apply here, it was the same arkane austin team but they got forced to make it by one of the seventy companies that own them.. and they all just left
Evil Empire are responsible for all my favorite updates to dead cells. Yeah motion twin made the base game but best content in the gsme out of evil empire
This video was recorded a solid month ago and I was sitting on it because I didn't have access to editing software for a few weeks 😅 but that game does look slick as hell
Really good video! We definitely have to be more aware of the fact that employees in a studio change over time. Also, I noticed a drastic leap in editing quality on this one! I can't believe how much effort you put into the animation and effects for this video. Keep doing good work!
I decided to post a video a month from now on since it gets a little hectic during school. That means a little extra time for edits and extra time to take a break and come back with fresh eyes. I think both those things are gonna lead to better final products moving forward, glad people liked the changes in this one
If they wanted to prop up Windblown, I'm fairly certain that "introducing it" in some way into Dead Cells would have been just about perfect... And honestly, yeah, I feel like the split decision-making and the very "distant" relation between the current team of MotionTwin and the one that made Dead Cells makes me think they probably grew jealous and greedy of their previous project's success and decided to cannibalize it to try to prop up their own. Sadly, that to me indicates Windblown has good chances to end up a fairly "meh" experience, for that wouldn't have been the actions of a confident company...
The graphics you use in your video makes everything so much more enjoyable and easy to understand Physically breaking the logo and placing a beard on it lowkey helped me wrap my head around it so much more
The discussion surrounding this is a cesspool due to the amount of people who love to call other gamers "entitled". That word is a red flag for anti-consumer NPCs who stan for corpos (especially in matters of consumer rights, although this isn't that). EE wants to develop new content. Fans want to buy new content. MT kills upcoming new content to promote their new game. I ask, how is it entitled to complain about this? We aren't ENTITLED to new content, but is sure feels like MT is screwing their fans over.
Tone is too aggressive, but that's a great point. If you want the content, are willing to pay for content, and the devs could just MAKE it and take our money, then there's not much of a good reason to kill the content that we know about.
What i consider entitled is when people come to a franchise like dark souls/er then demand features added/removed cause they dont like that the game doesnt cater to them. THAT is entitlement, what you described is not. I fully agree with ya.
Theseus's Ship as it relates to video games reminds me of Metroid Prime 4. It was exciting to hear that Retro Studios was working on the series again, but it's been so long since Prime 3 that there's a high likelihood that the studio has turned over its whole staff by now. I'd guess that few, if any, people working on 4 are the same ones who worked on the Trilogy, and that has me worried.
@@pedrol5004 Yeah, that's definitely good. But no matter what, the new team will have a different vision for the game than old Retro would. And that does bring a ton of benefits with it, but at the same time, it has a risk of not feeling cohesive with the others, like it's not the "real" Metroid Prime that I'm guessing a lot of fans are expecting.
@@NoshuHyenaMetroid Prime grew and changed a lot as it went on. Plenty of people don’t think 3 is congruous with 1 or 2, and for others 2 went too far off 1’s script. Ultimately Metroid Prime 4 will be what it is, and I personally think it’ll be very good.
Im kinda pissed off a little. We were basically promised at least one or two more updates after the one currently in developement. It was named The End Is Near for a reason, we expected the end to be around a corner that we would eventually turn, but it was more like a cannonball to the face that had a sticky note attached saying "goodbye". I was ready to have the game settle and age after a proper goodbye and maybe in a few years see a modding community rise up, like Gungeon. The current situation just feels unjust not only for Evil Empire but the players as well and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth about a game that I literally grew up with.
I remember hearing the ship of Theseus paradox a lot and always though it was a neat idea, but not really leaning one way or another towards it. Then I heard someone mention the ship of Theseus idea in relation to 'is the Disney of today the same company that made your childhood classics?', and my intuition imminently slid to them being two different ships.
i dont think the ship of theseus idea can be compared to the disney situation. the ship is replaced with identical wooden parts, but on disney...how do you find an identical human being with the same level of talent and passion? you cant.
Its kind of like bands that are completely different than what it used to be. Equilibrium is one of my favorite bands, but now they are a bunch of people who had nothing to do with the original band, dont sing about the same subjects, are a different genre and dont even sing in the same language. Modern day Equilibrium has no business being called Equalibrium
This is absolutely not the theseus ship paradox. The paradox requires replacing it with equivalent parts. But replacing a team with new members is not equivalent, they are not the same people in the way that two planks of the same wood are the same.
I don't believe the Ship of Theseus ever said the parts had to be identical, just that there is always a ship, and parts are replaced over time. The most famous version of the Ship of Theseus in modern media have been a Dwarven Axe that changed over the years due to fashion, and a broom that got replaced with better parts if they were available. (Even Vision which uses the Ship of Theseus analogy is now bright white, and not really the same person)
@@TheRodentMastermind The original ship of theseus is about just maintaining a ship by fixing it over time. I said the parts have to be equivalent, not the same. Equivalence depends on what aspects of an item you value. Because an item technically changes every second due to wear and tear, but we classify it as the same due to the select number of qualities we care about not changing. So if all that matters to you about an axe is its functionality, two axes which look different can be equivalent to you. Using the ship of theseus to refer to team members changing is just completely wrong. It's very clear that if none of the people who made the game are on that team, then you can't say "from the creators of" because none of the creators are there. Just like you can never say "these are the sails which took us to italy" if you replaced the sails after your trip to italy. The equivalent to "ship of theseus" is saying "by motiontwin" which is different than saying "by the creators of dead cells". The ship of theseus can still be the ship of theseus even with new sails, but those are not the sails that took you to italy. Motion twin can still be motion twin with new members, but they are not the creators of dead cells.
Great video! This reminds me a lot of the whole Back 4 Blood/Turtle Rock situation with Left 4 Dead and Valve, and how to actually account for the effort that goes into making a video game (or anything collaborative for that matter), on an individual level and a studio/developer/publisher level, too. I feel like here linguistically and marketing wise we could have easily differentiated the "creators" of Dead Cells as Motion Twin and the "developers" (or co-developers if MT wanted to be petty) as Evil Empire. But everything got royally messed up, seemingly by something so dumb as ego, making Motion Twin lose a lot of the good favor it built up among players. Windblown looks cool, but it always feels wrong to support crappy companies. BUT, but... it also feels bad to not support talented individual artists and designers who aren't even complicit in or aware of stupid marketing choices or bad blood between the business people. It all just kinda sucks now unless you don't think about it too much.
To be honest, I think it's not fair to label Motion Twin as a crappy company for this (although I recognise you weren't necessarily saying that). Due to the amount of work and love put into most games by many people, and the fact that we are not privvy to the inner workings of issues like this, I believe it's only fair/necessary to boycott a game you may potentially like if they have done something unforgivable, like covering up some serious allegations against it's members or not paying for artist's work etc.
Reminds me of how B4B marketed itself as "from the creators of L4D" when in reality Turtle Rock had only a dozen devs work on it while the overwhelming majority was Valve. TR may have created L4D but Valve made it the household name it is today.
Don't remind me lol. I thought finally a (spiritual) successor to l4d2. Disappointingly it didn't feel like it for me. I hate that valve can't count to 3. They have at least 3 franchises where fans would gobbke up a sequel but probably even more that i don't know off.
"names hold a lot of power, but you should never ler a company fool you into thinking that name is interchangeable with personell, identity or quality" The homeworld series would greatly agree with you
The Ship of Theseus thought process can be applied to many studios. Bioware, for example. Only ~20% of the staff that worked on Mass Effect 3 worked on Mass Effect 1.
Good video again. Also I liked the edits (and holy shit I didn't see 14:10 coming, it got me good) I definitely don't trust Motion Twin anymore, but I don't really trust Evil Empire either at this point (pretty sure there was some stuff about them recently about unlawful firings or something like that). But yeah the ship of Theseus thing is an important thing to keep in mind with games. And generally, asking "who made this" is still a good question. Like even recently, Nintendo is being Nintendo and refuses to announce who's making the games they publish, but it's made even worse by one of those games being Mario & Luigi, a series originally developped by AlphaDream, who doesn't even exist anymore. Generally we just tend to rely on names we recognize and think "oh yeah the first one was good, surely the new one will be too", and even for those who look further, knowing the studio doesn't mean you know who's not there anymore. ZA/UM who made Disco Elysium basically fired everyone but whatever they make next will still use DE for marketing. Rocksteady had expectations recently too, but who knows how many of those devs actually made the games people liked. It's a mess and that's why it's just easier to follow tiny devs 🤠
Yeah I was initially gonna cover some of the claims against EEs firings, I did stumble across that, but it kind of felt irrelevant to the central topic here so I shelfed it. Definitely a tough (and sometimes uncomfortable) rabbit hole digging into ANY company. Also, didn't know about that Mario&Luigi thing, really interesting
my general thought process is that i focus more about the lead director of a title than the individual developers in terms of "what should i compare this to?" Because often times you can see similarities between titles who have the same LD even if the actual development team is different. Not to say that those differences dont matter, but they are less obvious on an initial playthrough. As part of the sonic fanbase (another... very controversial group unfortunately) we have gone through 4 or 5 different game directors in our franchise, but its VERY easy to know who directed what, or who at least had the most influence, based on the style of story telling, game design, general tone, and game feel. Not every company works this way though, MTs style makes this MUCH harder because there isnt any one "lead director" or anything, which means that the individuals influence on a title is a lot tougher to get a grasp on. Overall, i dont think the ship is ever the same past the half way point, but as long as the Keel remains the same then the ship has the same heart. It has the same ideals. This isnt a perfect analogy but you get what i mean.
Bro Deadcells is hella hard after 0bc. I'm with you in the 0bc boss kill only club! I've beaten risk of rain 2 multiple times on monsoon and 100%ed noita but deadcells was too much for me =P
Yeah, when I left it, it kind of felt like a bunch of ways to enforce "just reset if you get hit once" Got to BS3 and just got tired of it. One of the things about roguelikes and other highly repetitive difficult games is any tiny flaws shine like headlights when the game demands perfection from you.
Honestly I'm gonna say personally this situation seems fairly obvious to me. Indie studios usually have less reason to be so corporate and lack transparency so the fact that that's the case seems to me like it's because they're trying to hide something. From your video (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems that Motion Twin were literally the ones who made the decision to shut down development and "the game felt complete" is obviously a terrible excuse for such a sudden decision that cancelled so many ideas that were in the middle of being developed. A terrible lie. I choose to believe the accusations. A shame since Windblown looks really nice, but all of this really taints its image. Though I don't necessarily think the whole team was on board with shutting down Dead Cells for these petty and greedy reasons, but still, it's a cooperative, so...
This is my first time coming across your channel and I really loved your insight and perspective while keeping track of all the facts too. I noticed Evil Empire being attached to Dead Cells, but I had never made the connection between the development teams switching and branching off and everything. The game definitely had a good run and it's still fun and has a lot of surprisingly good content, so I can't be mad, but it is weird the way everything just kind of stopped when it felt like it had so much momentum still
@@HomingAsatoMass A sequel's best for a game that still has a lot of potential but just needs to iron out some issues. Monster Hunter is a great example, as the first game, while really, REALLY rough, has such a solid formula that just needed to be refined, and each game has refined it more and more (with the potential exception of Sunbreak, as I feel like it got a little lost in the sauce).
If Dead Cells got another paid DLC, I would be a bit pissed after buying the complete set. Dead Cells already felt complete and I never found games exspecting to last in long term development forever to be game I could look forward to. A bit ironic, but that's how it works. The sooner a game ends, the more able I am to buy the complete product with minimal strings attached
The Ship of Theseus problem in organizations is an interesting one. On the one hand, many large studios fire the entire production team after every game and only hire them back when they're ready to begin production of the next, with only small post-release debug-and-polish teams and pre-production teams staying on. But for really large corporations like that, culture is also often dictated by the management and senior leadership positions that are staying between titles. On the other hand, a very small group can easily have its culture changed by swapping out a single person, although if they do a good job of vetting potential new hires and only introducing one new person at a time and giving them time to absorb the company culture, they can perpetuate the company culture to a large degree. None of this works indefinitely, of course, but I'd say that from a company culture point of view, the company hasn't _necessarily_ changed. However, I would say there is a difference between saying "From the studio that brought you . . ." and saying "From the creators that brought you . . .", because while the company may not have changed, the people certainly have. Also, certain game leads can definitely claim a degree of credit on their own, although again, wording matters. This is particularly true for people highly associated with a particular title who have hand-picked an indie crew to make a spiritual (or even direct!) sequel, which is something we saw with everyone from Brian Fargo producing Wasteland 2 & 3 to all of the Japanese creators who have gone indie and made (or are making) spiritual sequels, from Mighty No. 9 to Bloodstained to Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes to the Double Kickstarter games.
The death metal band "Job for a Cowboy" replaced every original member throughout their existence. So at a certain point, an entirely different band was bearing the name and playing their songs. But it happened gradually enough that every new member should rightfully be acknowledged as part of the band imo. After all, they were doing all the work. They took the time to learn the songs and harmonize with the rest of the group, while all the original members were working on other projects. Take an old company with good will from their customers. Say, Swiss. Swiss has been around long enough that the original employees are probably dead. Does that mean the company doesn't have the right to their reputation and profits? They're still making products, and their products are considered good quality. What about a country? Most countries don't have a single founding father or mother alive within them. Does that mean they're not the same country? The Olympics were started in ancient Greece. Every pioneer Olympic athlete has been dead for centuries. So is it no longer the Olympics? Having an all new cast is a sign of success in my opinion. It means your team outlived all of its original members. I know you never said otherwise, this is just a thought experiment.
this is a cool thought but motiontwin has been hands off from dead cells for a while so even though the team outlived the founders the team hasn't done anything good in a while either. Death metal group example you gave is fine if they do get themselves used to the band and doesn't lose their identity, motion twin did not do that. Motion twin gave all the dead cells responsibilities to evil empire and made windblown instead. Evil empire in this case is actually more resembling your example, they were the new developers of dead cells that respected the game and they bringed the game to new heights. Motion twin just shat on it
@@beegyoshi1685 Fair enough. In that case, I’d say both companies and their teams have the right to market their games as “from the creators of dead cells”, at least in principle. As far as the legality of copyright and trademark go on a corporate level, I just don’t know enough to make that call. But Evil Empire are definitely qualified as creators of dead cell, even if they didn’t come up with the idea, because they made meaningful additions to it and kept it alive and evolving. That being said, Motion Twin are also morally right to call themselves the creators of dead cells. Personally, I don’t think they’re trying to mislead potential customers by using it in their marketing. I don’t think they’re trying to screw Evil Empire out of their credit either. I think they’re just capitalizing on the good will of gamers who enjoyed dead cells, and target a similar audience. In principle, Evil Empire should have the right to use that in their marketing too, if they wanted. But who knows what would happen legally.
I think it's easier to say " *These* people started Dead Cells, *these* people worked on it, here's what they're all doing right now" rather than "Some of this company and some of that company, but this company mostly *started* it while this company did *these* parts" etc etc.
Dead Cells had the potential to grow even bigger and have more crossovers like the Castlevania dlc. Although the game is good as it is, it's a shame we'll never get to see it reach its full potential. My brother wanted to see a Demon Slayer dlc in the same vein as the Castlevania dlc. And I think it could have been great (although improbable to happen).
I personally think of Evil Empire as the Dead Cells Dev Team. Maybe for a year or two after it was handed over, but after about 70% of sales were in Evil Empire's term it's clear who's game it is.
I didnt even know there was Dead Cells drama. but this just sounds like a company that started out with passionate people getting corrupted and replaced with greedy money people. maybe that element isnt in full swing yet, but it's a classic story told by almost every company you can think of. the largest company I can think of that isnt fully corrupted by greed is Capcom... and they've been falling recently too, if also very slowly
Thanks for video) Great style and work! But as someone who came here for some answers or new info on theme I sadly found nothing new( I see what way you leading watcher, but I look at some other details and want to share 1) who's Sebastian? Why he's not in motion twin? What was his role that we pay so much attention to his words?(because we look what job and since when doing people that's left from original team, so why not talk more about him?) Why believe him so much? 2) how much Evil empire actually did for game? Yes, part of them is marketing team of MT, and yes, collabs whit other indie and Castlevania was a good move for sale. But what it actually good for inside of game, when big part of new enemies from Castle dlc was reskins of base game enemies, meanwhile more new weapons (mostly green=slow) were not playable on difficulty higher then 1 cell. In the same time game has bugs that is known and not patched for years( years of EE, not MT, thought it's known problem when 2 different teams work on same project). 3) it looks too strange to me that EE new game is with such big company as Ubi and so soon after "unexpected" break up with dead cells, you can already play it. Sorry to copy you, but - I not pointing or saying something certain, we can't know all truth, but isn't it strange that game devs has something with big AAA company so soon, when they have other project, which gonna last for year-two minimum? And if they need to choose, what would they do?😅 So in the end, I'm not telling that EE is wrong, I just don't think it's honest to take away personality or human side from team of 9(MT), and not do the same to team of 30?(EE)+Sebastian(why we know only his name 😂). And I think we can think who is Creators of Dead Cells after we can play both new games)
Absolutely love Dead Cells, my GOTY of 2018 without a doubt. However, I have been saying for the last 2 years that I wish they'd stop with the updates and put all their ideas into a proper sequel!
That "developer's dad worked on Dead Cells and his mom was Hispanic" line really got me! 😆 The Theseus' ship paradox is interesting though. From what I've heard, every cell in our body is replaced within a 7 year timeframe, does that make us a different person? I'd argue no, because there's a contiguity of consciousness that defines a large portion of who we are. Even physically, as new cells are created, they become part of our body, so there is a rolling contiguity of physicality even if none of the cells have existed as long as the body has. It's a little different with inanimate objects like a ship, or organizations like game developers. That said, the cells in a body thing has some parallels with game development. If a new developer joins a company, they're usually chosen at least in part because they're considered a good "fit" for the company (or of similar creative "DNA" so to speak). Also they will often learn many of the skills and philosophies that shaped that studio's games. In some sense, you could argue that given sufficient time, they could be considered to have further adopted the "DNA" of that developer. That said, the reality is that some developers are more responsible for aspects of a game than others, and some skills are more transferrable than others. I'm sure you could identify franchises that continued with the same company after pivotal developers had left, with a notable decline in some aspect of latter games (quality, vision, art direction, game feel, etc.) marking their departure. But on the other hand, unless you're talking about a solo developer, the realization of a creative director's vision is almost entirely reliant on the talents of their team. So those seemingly monolithic figures that get their name attached to particular games, crucial as they may have been, really can't take all the credit. Nor can they reliably assert they'll be able to capture lighting a subsequent time on a new project with a different team. At the end of the day, it can go either way (or both ways at the same time); so the only way to assess how things have shaken down is by checking out the new games/updates that developers make to try to parse how much if any of the magic sauce of their previous projects is present in the new one. Enjoyed the video as always! 👍
Interesting way of looking at it. I also agree it depends on the context. I wouldn't necessarily relate game dev to the cell example, even though I like the attempt, because frankly speaking some people are more responsible for a games creative vision and success than others, and even if you replace a bright, creative person with another bright, creative person who's a good fit eith the company, there will be some major fundamental differences no matter what. It feels less like subbing cells out 1 at a time, and more like replacing your entire brain with a similar brain that has all kinds of different memories and experiences attached to it. No way are you the same person still after that You could honestly go pretty deep into the argument. I kinda wish I dove into it a little further actually, but I still think it's a fun thought experiment regardless. Liked hearing your perspective
@@AsadAnjum Yeah there's definitely some people on teams where swapping them out is more like a brain or heart transplant than a cell being replaced (or maybe a bowel transplant if the game they're making is SHIT lol). It's a fun thought experiment for sure.
What kinda turns me off is the violence combined with the cartoon aesthetic. Not a big fan of seeing western cartoon-style characters being torn and cut to pieces like that.
here's the thing though... the dead cells show is coming. so in theory it would make more sense for motion twin to keep it going. i guess in a way it gives their version of the story a bit more credit in the idea of "it's complete".
The massive turnover thing is much more of a recent development in the video game industry. There has always been an element of change in it, but lately it has been 2 years here, 6 months there, 4 years there, and 3 months here. Used to be closer to a decade or so in the 90s and 2000s.
Two things: In answer to your question at 1:01, "Can companies truly earn goodwill?", I say yes. I trust Devolver Digital and Team 17 to find weird video games and bring them to entertain my brain. Also, From Software has my trust. Also also, specifically to @Asad Anjum, welcome to my feed! I have also only beaten Dead Cells to the point where the credits roll, and that's fine by me.
Oh, yeah! I was excited about that game when I watched Devolver's showcase, but I completely forgot that it mentioned Dead Cells because unless it's a whole team, I see that as a marketing gimmick.
I remember playing Dead Cells a few years ago and enjoying my multiple hours where I only able to beat the game with 0 Boss Cells lmao. I didn't know about this story and found it super interesting! And I've never heard of Windblown before and probably won't play it. Great vid!
I just got it yesterday and managed to beat 0BSC in about 5.5 hours of total playtime. Probably not gonna do 5BSC though. Looked up a few things and 90+ hours is on the low sidr, but 200-300 is like average. I'll just put in 30-50 hours and beat 2 or 3 BSC and call it a day.
can anyone explain what "supporting a game" actually means? i mean the game's finished, it's done, it'a a good game, anyone can play it from now up until the heat death of the universe, what more do people want? what's the point of constant updates if the the product is already good?
@@Hi45999 i'm genuinely asking what i'm missing here, as i hail from a distant, pre-internet age, when "supporting a game" wasn't a thing and developers were releasing finished products
@@dextro808 I think it's a grey area between a live service game and a classic game. It's cost effective to continually develop a single game over a span of in this case 7 years than to develop say a sequel or two sequels. I think that's the major reason why we don't get sequels as often
This reminds me very much how Dungeon Defenders suddenly stopped getting FAN MADE updates when yet another remake was announced and put into early access. Officially things can be said to be one way but things like that always send a message to me akin to 'we want people to focus on this thing now, we can't have something else even remotely overshadow it'. Its always just sad. I'd hope they'd let evil empire finish their stuff first, maybe just let them make a send off update with all the stuff they had planned for the future instead of things being so abrupt. It's bizarre to me.
It's kinda painful to play Dead Cells now. Half the passages you can explore end in a "Buy THIS DLC to continue!" or "Buy THAT DLC to continue!" And if you want to buy all the DLC to get rid of those messages and maybe see some new locales & weapons, it'll cost more than 100 dollars! I can't even recommend Dead Cells to anyone anymore, I just say, "Wait for the complete edition to come out on Switch 2" because you're just paying to get upsold at if you buy it now.
This did bother me for a while, but the base game is still enjoyable imo. If you ever did want to get the dlcs, they go on sale frequently. Right now I believe you can get all of them in a bundle for just 16 CAD, not sure what currency you use. I can't recommend one way or the other. I bought the dlcs recently after owning the game for a while and it'll be a while before I get to all the extra content
I said it in the Dead cells reddit and i bassically stand by this point now; they feared having dead cells still on activity would hurt windblown so they basically short-ended the games lifespan. Most important of all, the last uptade was stated, some time before the drama, to not be the games last (or close to last) uptade, despite its name, which when we consider the whole DLC planned ahead by EE, just gets worse for MT. I personally will not buy their new game and i feel most of the Dead Cells community aware of the drama feels the same, and just for the sake of it: Dead Cells was made by Evil Empire.
Interesting topic. Reminded me of when I played dota/dota2 and how an individual called icefrog practically kept the game going with updates and balances. Altho he may not have been the creator of the map or game, his involvement singlehandedly made the game what it is today and it's success.
Thats why we reject brand loyalty. If any new games by either MT or EE are good, it will have nothing to do with the success of deadcells: it will be of their own merit. And as you show, keeping track of the actual talent behind a game is a lot more complicated than what studio logo its attached to.
Sounds like, their system of giving everyone the same share in the company didn't have the desired effect, and instead, made everybody think like a CEO
I consider this to be a situation similar to that whole Back 4 Blood and Left 4 Dead situation. Compare Windblown’s to Rogue Prince of Persia. Windblown’s base gameplay looks very similar to Dead Cells and looks very polished but seems very… uninspired to me design wise. In comparison, Rogue Prince doesn’t look half as polished gameplay wise, but the art and animation looks very appealing. From that I think that while Motion Twin obviously built the foundation, I think that the polish and personality came from Evil Empire. There’s obviously more than one creator of Dead Cells, but it’s a question of whether or not it’s the base concept and core gameplay that makes a game, or if it’s the nuance and personality that makes Dead Cells what it is.
Motion Twin advertising Windblown as "by the makers of Dead Cells" has the same vibes as Turtlerock advertising Back4Blood as "by the makers of Left4Dead." Technically true, but those individual makers in question weren't the ones that made the game in question so great-
Join the discord- discord.gg/Gcx93UPZh7
"There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person," says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex.
"Fate is not without a sense of irony"
_but many mortal men are_
because his surname is specter
- Hbomber "Harris" "Harry" "Brewis" guy
Yeah you really should only attribute that kind of credit to auteurs like Kojima or Sam Lake because the game would literally not be how it is without then. Even then, it takes a whole team to make their visions a thing.
No, it was made by Ion Storm, John Romero's de studio!
so this is like the opposite of terraria where the devs keep saying its the last update but then big new update.
Or "it's just gonna be a small update" but then it ain't so small.
Terraria's been dropping new final updates for the last 4 years now lmaoo
@@Willified more than that. 1.3.5 was meant to be final too, and I even think the ones before as well. At one point in time mechs were meant to be the last boss and wings were a postgame item, isn't that crazy
Bro, I'm pretty sure 1.0 was originally gonna be the final version.
@@caseyclement9548 The first "final update" was 1.1.
apparently Evil Empire were excluded from the credits of the animated dead cells show, which is absolutely absurd to me
Yeah, also never knew you followed dead cells
Pretty neat
They also aren't on the Steam Page, though I don't know for certain if they ever were tbh.
@@BandannaBreadthey are listed on the DLC steam pages
Haha that's why I'm a pirate
@@robinrunaway5468na, you’re a “pirate” because of shady morals.
Dead Cells had a good run, and the developer who handled the support, Evil Empire, did a great job. I hope they give the same love to their next game, The Rogue Prince of Persia. I'm also looking forward to Windblown.
Marketers really go to college for years just to come out writing stuff that sounds like they're in The Truman Show 😭
Rogue PoP is out and has a pretty solid foundation. Hope they keep it up for a while, there's a lot of ways I could see that game improving
@@AsadAnjumis this the latest POP game where speaking of? The lost crown? That game is absolute gas.
@@bonzaibill9965 nah we talking about "The Rogue Prince of persia" it came out in may
The best motion twin rogulike to date is still Hammerfest in my heart
did you know? the game has a build of a "final farewell" update that's been stuck in beta since before the announcement of them ending updates? You can still access it and fully completes the feature set by adding a few new routes so that players can finally take both parts of the castlevania dlc in a single run, even if they're going for late game dracula's castle instead of early game. I wish this update could be finished off and finally come to console but that's not likely at this point lol
Huh I actually didn't know about that. Yeah there's definitely some stuff that was scrapped late and left on the table which is part of what makes all of this so weird to begin with
@@AsadAnjum The original comment is just talking about "The End is Near," those routing changes are part of the update. There has been a statement issued that the update will fully release, but nobody is optimistic at this point. It's been in beta for around 8 months now.
am i going crazy or did they have a steam page and everything for the final farewell dlc because i swear i remember them announcing it and saying it will be the last major dlc
Just the other day I was wondering if they actually released that "End is Near" update. It seemed very controversial because of the curse mobs that follow you around, and all the curse weapons that seem useless. But wow, it seems like forever since I've saw any info on that, I really thought it was in the game already.
It is not a "final farewell" update. The update was made before EE got removed from development. It was in no way meant to be the final update as there still was a full year of content planned. Please edit the comment in some way, as it's currently misinformation.
As far as the theseus paradox, ive always made sure not to trust a "from the creators of" tagline since its one of the most overused taglines especially in cinema, and when they say that 9/10 times its JUST the director.
Never the screenplay writer, or dialog writers
good example of this was Back 4 Blood trailer, it had the tagline "From creators of Left 4 Dead 2" but in the official credits you can find inside the game, only 4 people out of like a hundered were from Turtlerock Studios and worked on L4D2
@nu_kercat1 Modern Bioware is another example. Barely anyone who worked there during the Golden Age of Baldur's Gate II to Dragon Age Origins still works there.
So, while the new Dragon Age game is technically developed by the same studio, it has only a handful of people that worked on the original game.
Yeah, after The Outer Worlds came out and was incredibly mediocre I feel the same way about seeing taglines like that.
@BiggestGal Funnily enough, The Outer Wilds did have a large amount of the team that worked on New Vegas. I'm not sure if the team just didn't have enough time or they simply failed to meet expectations.
Either way, it serves a different lesson. Expecting one masterpiece after another is unrealistic.
@@Pan_Z you mean Outer Worlds?
Devolver Digital has a new game called "Tenjitsu" which has it's marketing as "By the Designer of Dead Cells"
This trailer actually came out after I recorded this video which is why it doesn't get a mention, but yeah I noticed that (it's by Sebastian Bernard, who I mentioned in the video. Funny how that all works out haha)
You said the same thing twice
Tenjutzu is legit. it was made by Sabastian Bernard for a game jam and now he's developing it into a full game
Imo, that one is legit. It's made by the original designer (Sebastian Bernard, mentioned above) of dead cells who left to spin up his own thing. I played his other game nuclear blaze (also marketed similarly) and it was decent enough.
Hey there, I've been pretty involved in the Dead Cells community for several years and have been very much in the weeds of all this drama. The veteran community all hates Motion Twin now and most people I know will be boycotting Windblown. Here's a few bits of more "insider" info that you didn't catch (by no fault of your own).
I can tell you with 100% certainty that there were more updates planned. The next update after u35 (The End is Near), was supposed to overhaul the experience for new players. This directly goes against the "The game is finished, adding more will bloat it" narrative that MT is trying to push.
There was an entire new DLC planned by EE that MT forced them to can because of the development cancellation. It was still in early development stages but would mean at least one more major update to the game.
A very recent point that came up involves the animated show. That's its own can of worms so I'll just refer to what's relevant here. Evil Empire is entirely absent from the credits on the ADN release (French website) and, more damning, has their company name hastily blurred out of the credits for the UA-cam release of the first episode. This lends even more credence to the idea that MT is trying to quietly shuffle EE out of the way so they can retain the title of "creators of DC."
Edit: Forgot to mention that the community manager/ marketing person was changed from "Matt" to someone who goes by "XYZ" on the official Dead Cells discord right before update 35/3.5 hit beta. It doesn't seem very logical to have someone else take over that role just to announce the release of the u35 beta. This also suggests that a lot more was planned.
None of that besides the show credits thing is really widely known and that happened a few days ago, so this video covers basically everything possible.
Overall, this was an amazingly well-researched video that I will be sharing around the DC community as much as possible.
I could have really used that overhauled experience update; I bought the game way back and just had a hell of a time getting into it; so I shelved it and never looked back.
As for MT, and having been interested in WindBlown; I'll be boycotting Windblown.
"What do we owe our communities? Nothing."
Then they don't deserve our money, period.
@@ShevaiAsan I did forget to mention that line, it's probably the worst look for MT out of all of this.
Was thinking of buying Dead Cells while it's on sale, but now I'm not sure
@@kimballbelliston5925it's still a great game, tho I'd recommend boycotting windblown
I was really wondering why dead cell’s life support just got severed so suddenly. it really blows this is how it has to go, i was really looking forward to whatever evil empire had in mind
Let me say as someone that played the DLCs and paid close attention to the game during its full lifetime, Evil Empire did such a good job (atualization, balance, DLC, and collabs). To me they do deserve credit too as creators they did a lot for the game and put their heart and love into it (if you have the DLCs the game basicaly triple in content, and has some of the best content in my opinion, so they did a lot...). I bleeds me to see the resentifullness
Yeah man, I still can't get over it. At least it had a good and long run. I used to play it on switch (the worst possible console to play it on) and it was optimized so well (after that console fps update) that I didn't feel the need to change to another console. Plus the dlcs were so cheap (especially with the bundles and everything being on sale most of the time). I alr had my ten bucks saved for that last dlc 🥲
I used to be a giant dead cells fan, I put over 900 hours in the game. I 100%ed it every update, at some point even had two save files that were 100%ed. I got all achivments, I beat the game on the hardest difficulty hitless. Went through the tens of hours of grinding the hardest things possible in the game such as the boss rush. It used to be my favorite game of all time, I played I since 2020 and this was Soul crushing. Motion twin made dead cells but evil empire MADE dead cells, the game would be nowhere near how good it is without them. Every single update better and better, weapons being cooler and even more fun and satisfying to use. When I saw windblown was "made by the team behind dead cells" I got justifyingly, very excited and I thought I would buy it day one but after all of this, more and more coming out about MT I think I won't get it. I was already thinking of buying the price of Persia game but I'm definitely getting it to support EE, they don't deserve this and it is a shame what MT did to them. Let alone a shame that MT made dead cells instead of them, literally putting away an incredible game that could be even better, served on a silver platter away from their hands. And the fact that the EE logo and name is blurred out of the credits of the dead cells animated show is a disgrace and whoever was behind it should be ashamed. (the show sucks btw and does not have the essence or lore of dead cells)
Wait the show is out?
There was a show?
@@jakestaheli8532 there is currently an ongoing show with two episodes out
I dont agree with the show being bad,(while i do wish it was about the plot of the actual game) but the rest are certainly true, will support ee
@@qwp1884 no no there is more episode, i dont like the artstyle so im not watching that
I think it's reasonable to say both EvilE and MotionT are the creators behind deadcells.
1000%, should be mentioned
MotionTwin started it first, Evil Empire continued it second
Motion Twin should be entirely discredited for what they did
Technically Sebastien Bénard made Dead Cells. But MT doesn't want people knowing that (He was an ex-MT dev)
@@Florjb0rjTheFloorboard No
One of the first gaming experiences my second cousin has was sitting on my lap "playing" Dead Cells. As in I found the giant hammer weapon and he mashed attack whilst I desperately tried to dodge so we didn't die. Years later he still remembers playing that game with me.
Video games are art and art has real power over people. It's so disgusting to see MT treat the game like this.
Personally for me I always thought EE was the creators of dead cells because of how The Rouge PoP looks basically like dead cells as opposed to windblown which totally looks like a whole new thing
I guess the essence of dead cells really stuck with evil empire. ( It was literally their first project so it makes sense )
While I'm still absolutely LIVID that Microsoft closed down Arkane Austin, the team that made Prey, the best immersive sim, stealth, cosmic horror experience ever... well fect of the matter is MOST of the team that ACTUALLY developed Prey left BECAUSE of the development of Redfall. Even if Microsoft lifted their finger, delayed the game, reorganized and saved that sinking ship, if it turned out to be a BANGER title, that team would still be gone.
Prey is mid
Prey is pretty good but it’s definitely not the best immersive sim ever. Maybe the best of the past decade (not that there’s much competition), but it definitely pales compared to OG Deus Ex
@@cdm966 it's all subjective. i definitely liked prey more than deus ex
@@cdm966OG Deus Ex still holds up with Prey 2017, but Prey 2017 took imsim to the next level.
They left because they didn't want to make Redfall. If management just worked on Dishonoured 3 or the next Prey, they would have been back
The gaming community tends to put a lot of stock in company names when we should be paying more attention to the actual people attached to these projects. People have wondered why games like Suicide Squad and Redfall came out in the state they were in when they are made by such prolific studios, but one look at the list of major staff involved with these projects and comparing it to that of those older, better games reveals exactly what happened.
But by that same token, just because one big name changes studios doesn't mean their new game is gonna be like their previous work. Kojima fans followed him to his new studio and many love Death Stranding and attribute it to him being freed from Konami, but some seem to forget it wasn't just him, a huge chunk of his studio is also former Konami staff.
I think kojima is also a good example of taking it too far the other way, as I’ve seen people saying konami can’t do metal gear without kojima
@@whyamihere5835i mean, they're right, konami proved them right also
redfall doesn't apply here, it was the same arkane austin team but they got forced to make it by one of the seventy companies that own them.. and they all just left
Evil Empire are responsible for all my favorite updates to dead cells. Yeah motion twin made the base game but best content in the gsme out of evil empire
While stupid, Sebastian's calling it an educated guess is a legal jardon - to avoid cases from MT itself
kinda suprised you didnt cover the new Tenjutsu trailer. in the trailer it says "made by the designer of dead cells", which is Sébastien Benard.
This video was recorded a solid month ago and I was sitting on it because I didn't have access to editing software for a few weeks 😅 but that game does look slick as hell
it true
Aka the REAL lead for the game before MT shuffled him off
Really good video! We definitely have to be more aware of the fact that employees in a studio change over time. Also, I noticed a drastic leap in editing quality on this one! I can't believe how much effort you put into the animation and effects for this video. Keep doing good work!
I decided to post a video a month from now on since it gets a little hectic during school. That means a little extra time for edits and extra time to take a break and come back with fresh eyes. I think both those things are gonna lead to better final products moving forward, glad people liked the changes in this one
@@AsadAnjum Studying System and Plant Mechanic. School is a bitch.
If they wanted to prop up Windblown, I'm fairly certain that "introducing it" in some way into Dead Cells would have been just about perfect...
And honestly, yeah, I feel like the split decision-making and the very "distant" relation between the current team of MotionTwin and the one that made Dead Cells makes me think they probably grew jealous and greedy of their previous project's success and decided to cannibalize it to try to prop up their own.
Sadly, that to me indicates Windblown has good chances to end up a fairly "meh" experience, for that wouldn't have been the actions of a confident company...
The graphics you use in your video makes everything so much more enjoyable and easy to understand
Physically breaking the logo and placing a beard on it lowkey helped me wrap my head around it so much more
The discussion surrounding this is a cesspool due to the amount of people who love to call other gamers "entitled". That word is a red flag for anti-consumer NPCs who stan for corpos (especially in matters of consumer rights, although this isn't that).
EE wants to develop new content. Fans want to buy new content. MT kills upcoming new content to promote their new game.
I ask, how is it entitled to complain about this? We aren't ENTITLED to new content, but is sure feels like MT is screwing their fans over.
Tone is too aggressive, but that's a great point. If you want the content, are willing to pay for content, and the devs could just MAKE it and take our money, then there's not much of a good reason to kill the content that we know about.
MT isn't a corpo. Coops cannot be corpos! They can still be bad but not corporations.
@@Americanbadashhit's people working together to dilute individual responsibility. It's basically a corporation.
What i consider entitled is when people come to a franchise like dark souls/er then demand features added/removed cause they dont like that the game doesnt cater to them. THAT is entitlement, what you described is not. I fully agree with ya.
omg preach you're so right
Theseus's Ship as it relates to video games reminds me of Metroid Prime 4. It was exciting to hear that Retro Studios was working on the series again, but it's been so long since Prime 3 that there's a high likelihood that the studio has turned over its whole staff by now. I'd guess that few, if any, people working on 4 are the same ones who worked on the Trilogy, and that has me worried.
The remaster had a lot of respect for the og material and the trailer looks great, when the new team respects the old team it really pays off
@@pedrol5004 Yeah, that's definitely good. But no matter what, the new team will have a different vision for the game than old Retro would. And that does bring a ton of benefits with it, but at the same time, it has a risk of not feeling cohesive with the others, like it's not the "real" Metroid Prime that I'm guessing a lot of fans are expecting.
@@NoshuHyenaMetroid Prime grew and changed a lot as it went on. Plenty of people don’t think 3 is congruous with 1 or 2, and for others 2 went too far off 1’s script. Ultimately Metroid Prime 4 will be what it is, and I personally think it’ll be very good.
Im kinda pissed off a little. We were basically promised at least one or two more updates after the one currently in developement. It was named The End Is Near for a reason, we expected the end to be around a corner that we would eventually turn, but it was more like a cannonball to the face that had a sticky note attached saying "goodbye". I was ready to have the game settle and age after a proper goodbye and maybe in a few years see a modding community rise up, like Gungeon. The current situation just feels unjust not only for Evil Empire but the players as well and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth about a game that I literally grew up with.
Same
Dead cells modding needed to at least exist if they were canning future content
I remember hearing the ship of Theseus paradox a lot and always though it was a neat idea, but not really leaning one way or another towards it. Then I heard someone mention the ship of Theseus idea in relation to 'is the Disney of today the same company that made your childhood classics?', and my intuition imminently slid to them being two different ships.
i dont think the ship of theseus idea can be compared to the disney situation. the ship is replaced with identical wooden parts, but on disney...how do you find an identical human being with the same level of talent and passion? you cant.
The comparison is flawed. Human talent and passion cannot be replaced the same way a part of a structure can.
@@GoogleAccount-jn5qbor can it?
Fun fact: Your body has replaced every single cell in your body multiple times! (Takes around 7 years for every cell)
Its kind of like bands that are completely different than what it used to be. Equilibrium is one of my favorite bands, but now they are a bunch of people who had nothing to do with the original band, dont sing about the same subjects, are a different genre and dont even sing in the same language. Modern day Equilibrium has no business being called Equalibrium
That's so on point, kinda sad what happend with that band...
So, somehow I, a Hotline Miami fan, did not know you can play as Jacket in Dead Cells until watching this video
Ong, I love Hotline Miami so how did I miss this? I mean tbf I don't even follow the Miami creators that well sooo
@@De_La_Evoit was a pretty recent update iirc. they also added the knight and some other indie characters that i can't remember right now
spoiler: the baseball bat is overpowered that even the hand of the king didnt stand a chance (if partnered with Wolf trap and root grenade thing)
Well edited, well presented, and with an all around great energy from you!
Great job Asad!!
So Evil Empire isn't evil (yet), but MotionTwin is?
bruh.
The best analogy I heard for this is a football team. They wear the same shirts, but they are not the same team
This is absolutely not the theseus ship paradox.
The paradox requires replacing it with equivalent parts. But replacing a team with new members is not equivalent, they are not the same people in the way that two planks of the same wood are the same.
I don't believe the Ship of Theseus ever said the parts had to be identical, just that there is always a ship, and parts are replaced over time. The most famous version of the Ship of Theseus in modern media have been a Dwarven Axe that changed over the years due to fashion, and a broom that got replaced with better parts if they were available. (Even Vision which uses the Ship of Theseus analogy is now bright white, and not really the same person)
@@TheRodentMastermind The original ship of theseus is about just maintaining a ship by fixing it over time. I said the parts have to be equivalent, not the same. Equivalence depends on what aspects of an item you value. Because an item technically changes every second due to wear and tear, but we classify it as the same due to the select number of qualities we care about not changing. So if all that matters to you about an axe is its functionality, two axes which look different can be equivalent to you.
Using the ship of theseus to refer to team members changing is just completely wrong. It's very clear that if none of the people who made the game are on that team, then you can't say "from the creators of" because none of the creators are there.
Just like you can never say "these are the sails which took us to italy" if you replaced the sails after your trip to italy.
The equivalent to "ship of theseus" is saying "by motiontwin" which is different than saying "by the creators of dead cells". The ship of theseus can still be the ship of theseus even with new sails, but those are not the sails that took you to italy. Motion twin can still be motion twin with new members, but they are not the creators of dead cells.
It's a small thing, but your editing and transitions is spot-on.
That's what we like to hear 😎
Great video! This reminds me a lot of the whole Back 4 Blood/Turtle Rock situation with Left 4 Dead and Valve, and how to actually account for the effort that goes into making a video game (or anything collaborative for that matter), on an individual level and a studio/developer/publisher level, too.
I feel like here linguistically and marketing wise we could have easily differentiated the "creators" of Dead Cells as Motion Twin and the "developers" (or co-developers if MT wanted to be petty) as Evil Empire. But everything got royally messed up, seemingly by something so dumb as ego, making Motion Twin lose a lot of the good favor it built up among players.
Windblown looks cool, but it always feels wrong to support crappy companies. BUT, but... it also feels bad to not support talented individual artists and designers who aren't even complicit in or aware of stupid marketing choices or bad blood between the business people.
It all just kinda sucks now unless you don't think about it too much.
To be honest, I think it's not fair to label Motion Twin as a crappy company for this (although I recognise you weren't necessarily saying that).
Due to the amount of work and love put into most games by many people, and the fact that we are not privvy to the inner workings of issues like this, I believe it's only fair/necessary to boycott a game you may potentially like if they have done something unforgivable, like covering up some serious allegations against it's members or not paying for artist's work etc.
Reminds me of how B4B marketed itself as "from the creators of L4D" when in reality Turtle Rock had only a dozen devs work on it while the overwhelming majority was Valve. TR may have created L4D but Valve made it the household name it is today.
Don't remind me lol. I thought finally a (spiritual) successor to l4d2. Disappointingly it didn't feel like it for me. I hate that valve can't count to 3. They have at least 3 franchises where fans would gobbke up a sequel but probably even more that i don't know off.
"names hold a lot of power, but you should never ler a company fool you into thinking that name is interchangeable with personell, identity or quality"
The homeworld series would greatly agree with you
The Ship of Theseus thought process can be applied to many studios. Bioware, for example. Only ~20% of the staff that worked on Mass Effect 3 worked on Mass Effect 1.
Good video again. Also I liked the edits (and holy shit I didn't see 14:10 coming, it got me good)
I definitely don't trust Motion Twin anymore, but I don't really trust Evil Empire either at this point (pretty sure there was some stuff about them recently about unlawful firings or something like that). But yeah the ship of Theseus thing is an important thing to keep in mind with games. And generally, asking "who made this" is still a good question. Like even recently, Nintendo is being Nintendo and refuses to announce who's making the games they publish, but it's made even worse by one of those games being Mario & Luigi, a series originally developped by AlphaDream, who doesn't even exist anymore.
Generally we just tend to rely on names we recognize and think "oh yeah the first one was good, surely the new one will be too", and even for those who look further, knowing the studio doesn't mean you know who's not there anymore. ZA/UM who made Disco Elysium basically fired everyone but whatever they make next will still use DE for marketing. Rocksteady had expectations recently too, but who knows how many of those devs actually made the games people liked.
It's a mess and that's why it's just easier to follow tiny devs 🤠
Yeah I was initially gonna cover some of the claims against EEs firings, I did stumble across that, but it kind of felt irrelevant to the central topic here so I shelfed it. Definitely a tough (and sometimes uncomfortable) rabbit hole digging into ANY company. Also, didn't know about that Mario&Luigi thing, really interesting
my general thought process is that i focus more about the lead director of a title than the individual developers in terms of "what should i compare this to?" Because often times you can see similarities between titles who have the same LD even if the actual development team is different. Not to say that those differences dont matter, but they are less obvious on an initial playthrough.
As part of the sonic fanbase (another... very controversial group unfortunately) we have gone through 4 or 5 different game directors in our franchise, but its VERY easy to know who directed what, or who at least had the most influence, based on the style of story telling, game design, general tone, and game feel.
Not every company works this way though, MTs style makes this MUCH harder because there isnt any one "lead director" or anything, which means that the individuals influence on a title is a lot tougher to get a grasp on.
Overall, i dont think the ship is ever the same past the half way point, but as long as the Keel remains the same then the ship has the same heart. It has the same ideals. This isnt a perfect analogy but you get what i mean.
Bro Deadcells is hella hard after 0bc. I'm with you in the 0bc boss kill only club! I've beaten risk of rain 2 multiple times on monsoon and 100%ed noita but deadcells was too much for me =P
It's way easier now tho
I’m hard stuck on 4 bc .. so close yet so far
The feeling of beating 5bc is worth it tho
i can't get anything done in noita
Yeah, when I left it, it kind of felt like a bunch of ways to enforce "just reset if you get hit once" Got to BS3 and just got tired of it. One of the things about roguelikes and other highly repetitive difficult games is any tiny flaws shine like headlights when the game demands perfection from you.
Honestly I'm gonna say personally this situation seems fairly obvious to me. Indie studios usually have less reason to be so corporate and lack transparency so the fact that that's the case seems to me like it's because they're trying to hide something. From your video (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems that Motion Twin were literally the ones who made the decision to shut down development and "the game felt complete" is obviously a terrible excuse for such a sudden decision that cancelled so many ideas that were in the middle of being developed. A terrible lie. I choose to believe the accusations. A shame since Windblown looks really nice, but all of this really taints its image. Though I don't necessarily think the whole team was on board with shutting down Dead Cells for these petty and greedy reasons, but still, it's a cooperative, so...
This is my first time coming across your channel and I really loved your insight and perspective while keeping track of all the facts too. I noticed Evil Empire being attached to Dead Cells, but I had never made the connection between the development teams switching and branching off and everything. The game definitely had a good run and it's still fun and has a lot of surprisingly good content, so I can't be mad, but it is weird the way everything just kind of stopped when it felt like it had so much momentum still
i miss when good successful games got sequels and support
I much prefer it when developers move on to new projects in order to innovate. Many sequels struggle to capture what made the original special anyway.
@@HomingAsatoMass A sequel's best for a game that still has a lot of potential but just needs to iron out some issues. Monster Hunter is a great example, as the first game, while really, REALLY rough, has such a solid formula that just needed to be refined, and each game has refined it more and more (with the potential exception of Sunbreak, as I feel like it got a little lost in the sauce).
If Dead Cells got another paid DLC, I would be a bit pissed after buying the complete set. Dead Cells already felt complete and I never found games exspecting to last in long term development forever to be game I could look forward to. A bit ironic, but that's how it works. The sooner a game ends, the more able I am to buy the complete product with minimal strings attached
The editing is so good on this video! Can’t believe you aren’t that big yet
Those rhombuses behind you look like dead by daylight perk loadouts
Tbf i think this kinda thing ends up being a real problem when big companies makes statements like this ending up in big franchise flops
they should change the "from the creators of dead cells" to "from some of the creators of dead cells"
The Ship of Theseus problem in organizations is an interesting one.
On the one hand, many large studios fire the entire production team after every game and only hire them back when they're ready to begin production of the next, with only small post-release debug-and-polish teams and pre-production teams staying on. But for really large corporations like that, culture is also often dictated by the management and senior leadership positions that are staying between titles.
On the other hand, a very small group can easily have its culture changed by swapping out a single person, although if they do a good job of vetting potential new hires and only introducing one new person at a time and giving them time to absorb the company culture, they can perpetuate the company culture to a large degree.
None of this works indefinitely, of course, but I'd say that from a company culture point of view, the company hasn't _necessarily_ changed.
However, I would say there is a difference between saying "From the studio that brought you . . ." and saying "From the creators that brought you . . .", because while the company may not have changed, the people certainly have.
Also, certain game leads can definitely claim a degree of credit on their own, although again, wording matters. This is particularly true for people highly associated with a particular title who have hand-picked an indie crew to make a spiritual (or even direct!) sequel, which is something we saw with everyone from Brian Fargo producing Wasteland 2 & 3 to all of the Japanese creators who have gone indie and made (or are making) spiritual sequels, from Mighty No. 9 to Bloodstained to Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes to the Double Kickstarter games.
Wow the quality of your videos is so good. You deserve so much more recognition.
The death metal band "Job for a Cowboy" replaced every original member throughout their existence. So at a certain point, an entirely different band was bearing the name and playing their songs. But it happened gradually enough that every new member should rightfully be acknowledged as part of the band imo. After all, they were doing all the work. They took the time to learn the songs and harmonize with the rest of the group, while all the original members were working on other projects.
Take an old company with good will from their customers. Say, Swiss. Swiss has been around long enough that the original employees are probably dead. Does that mean the company doesn't have the right to their reputation and profits? They're still making products, and their products are considered good quality.
What about a country? Most countries don't have a single founding father or mother alive within them. Does that mean they're not the same country?
The Olympics were started in ancient Greece. Every pioneer Olympic athlete has been dead for centuries. So is it no longer the Olympics?
Having an all new cast is a sign of success in my opinion. It means your team outlived all of its original members.
I know you never said otherwise, this is just a thought experiment.
this is a cool thought but motiontwin has been hands off from dead cells for a while so even though the team outlived the founders the team hasn't done anything good in a while either. Death metal group example you gave is fine if they do get themselves used to the band and doesn't lose their identity, motion twin did not do that. Motion twin gave all the dead cells responsibilities to evil empire and made windblown instead. Evil empire in this case is actually more resembling your example, they were the new developers of dead cells that respected the game and they bringed the game to new heights. Motion twin just shat on it
@@beegyoshi1685 Fair enough. In that case, I’d say both companies and their teams have the right to market their games as “from the creators of dead cells”, at least in principle. As far as the legality of copyright and trademark go on a corporate level, I just don’t know enough to make that call. But Evil Empire are definitely qualified as creators of dead cell, even if they didn’t come up with the idea, because they made meaningful additions to it and kept it alive and evolving. That being said, Motion Twin are also morally right to call themselves the creators of dead cells.
Personally, I don’t think they’re trying to mislead potential customers by using it in their marketing. I don’t think they’re trying to screw Evil Empire out of their credit either. I think they’re just capitalizing on the good will of gamers who enjoyed dead cells, and target a similar audience. In principle, Evil Empire should have the right to use that in their marketing too, if they wanted. But who knows what would happen legally.
They should have just worded it as "From the studio that made Dead Cells"
Don't trust claims by devs about who really made what. Was burnt on Back 4 Blood, and now I'm more skeptical.
excellent video, coming back into the game after a 4 year break and this helped catch me up on all the big important stuff
I think it's easier to say " *These* people started Dead Cells, *these* people worked on it, here's what they're all doing right now" rather than "Some of this company and some of that company, but this company mostly *started* it while this company did *these* parts" etc etc.
found the channel from this video and it's noice.
i like the paper style to the editing too.
Dead Cells had the potential to grow even bigger and have more crossovers like the Castlevania dlc. Although the game is good as it is, it's a shame we'll never get to see it reach its full potential. My brother wanted to see a Demon Slayer dlc in the same vein as the Castlevania dlc. And I think it could have been great (although improbable to happen).
I think they only collab with video game company, and since Demon Slayer is a show, they probraly won't collab with the animation company.
I personally think of Evil Empire as the Dead Cells Dev Team. Maybe for a year or two after it was handed over, but after about 70% of sales were in Evil Empire's term it's clear who's game it is.
EE and MT, just hug each other and make amazing stuff, MT invented dead cells, EE made dead cells
This whole situation heavily reminds me of Battlefront 2s unceremonious end to make way for Battlefield 2042
I didnt even know there was Dead Cells drama. but this just sounds like a company that started out with passionate people getting corrupted and replaced with greedy money people. maybe that element isnt in full swing yet, but it's a classic story told by almost every company you can think of. the largest company I can think of that isnt fully corrupted by greed is Capcom... and they've been falling recently too, if also very slowly
Heh, imagine
"From the minds behind Stardew Valley"
"All but ONE developer from Stardew Valley are working on this project"
Thanks for video) Great style and work!
But as someone who came here for some answers or new info on theme I sadly found nothing new( I see what way you leading watcher, but I look at some other details and want to share
1) who's Sebastian? Why he's not in motion twin? What was his role that we pay so much attention to his words?(because we look what job and since when doing people that's left from original team, so why not talk more about him?) Why believe him so much?
2) how much Evil empire actually did for game? Yes, part of them is marketing team of MT, and yes, collabs whit other indie and Castlevania was a good move for sale. But what it actually good for inside of game, when big part of new enemies from Castle dlc was reskins of base game enemies, meanwhile more new weapons (mostly green=slow) were not playable on difficulty higher then 1 cell. In the same time game has bugs that is known and not patched for years( years of EE, not MT, thought it's known problem when 2 different teams work on same project).
3) it looks too strange to me that EE new game is with such big company as Ubi and so soon after "unexpected" break up with dead cells, you can already play it. Sorry to copy you, but - I not pointing or saying something certain, we can't know all truth, but isn't it strange that game devs has something with big AAA company so soon, when they have other project, which gonna last for year-two minimum? And if they need to choose, what would they do?😅
So in the end, I'm not telling that EE is wrong, I just don't think it's honest to take away personality or human side from team of 9(MT), and not do the same to team of 30?(EE)+Sebastian(why we know only his name 😂). And I think we can think who is Creators of Dead Cells after we can play both new games)
Indie studios tend to wear their influences on their sleeves, and I guess Motion Twin is inspired by Konami.
The members of Dead Cell are easy to name. Fatman, Fortune, Vamp, and Solidus.
Great writing+ research 🙌 Keep it up and this channel will hella growwwww!
I remember when the loading screen didn't say evil empire
Wow I feel like I'm on the ground floor with your subscriber count.
EVIL EMPIRE. LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK
Absolutely love Dead Cells, my GOTY of 2018 without a doubt. However, I have been saying for the last 2 years that I wish they'd stop with the updates and put all their ideas into a proper sequel!
That "developer's dad worked on Dead Cells and his mom was Hispanic" line really got me! 😆
The Theseus' ship paradox is interesting though. From what I've heard, every cell in our body is replaced within a 7 year timeframe, does that make us a different person? I'd argue no, because there's a contiguity of consciousness that defines a large portion of who we are. Even physically, as new cells are created, they become part of our body, so there is a rolling contiguity of physicality even if none of the cells have existed as long as the body has. It's a little different with inanimate objects like a ship, or organizations like game developers.
That said, the cells in a body thing has some parallels with game development. If a new developer joins a company, they're usually chosen at least in part because they're considered a good "fit" for the company (or of similar creative "DNA" so to speak). Also they will often learn many of the skills and philosophies that shaped that studio's games. In some sense, you could argue that given sufficient time, they could be considered to have further adopted the "DNA" of that developer.
That said, the reality is that some developers are more responsible for aspects of a game than others, and some skills are more transferrable than others. I'm sure you could identify franchises that continued with the same company after pivotal developers had left, with a notable decline in some aspect of latter games (quality, vision, art direction, game feel, etc.) marking their departure.
But on the other hand, unless you're talking about a solo developer, the realization of a creative director's vision is almost entirely reliant on the talents of their team. So those seemingly monolithic figures that get their name attached to particular games, crucial as they may have been, really can't take all the credit. Nor can they reliably assert they'll be able to capture lighting a subsequent time on a new project with a different team.
At the end of the day, it can go either way (or both ways at the same time); so the only way to assess how things have shaken down is by checking out the new games/updates that developers make to try to parse how much if any of the magic sauce of their previous projects is present in the new one.
Enjoyed the video as always! 👍
Interesting way of looking at it. I also agree it depends on the context. I wouldn't necessarily relate game dev to the cell example, even though I like the attempt, because frankly speaking some people are more responsible for a games creative vision and success than others, and even if you replace a bright, creative person with another bright, creative person who's a good fit eith the company, there will be some major fundamental differences no matter what. It feels less like subbing cells out 1 at a time, and more like replacing your entire brain with a similar brain that has all kinds of different memories and experiences attached to it. No way are you the same person still after that
You could honestly go pretty deep into the argument. I kinda wish I dove into it a little further actually, but I still think it's a fun thought experiment regardless. Liked hearing your perspective
@@AsadAnjum Yeah there's definitely some people on teams where swapping them out is more like a brain or heart transplant than a cell being replaced (or maybe a bowel transplant if the game they're making is SHIT lol). It's a fun thought experiment for sure.
All of this being said, MAN windblown looks cool
What kinda turns me off is the violence combined with the cartoon aesthetic. Not a big fan of seeing western cartoon-style characters being torn and cut to pieces like that.
Shoutout to Steve, who helped me figure out technical problems I had with the game.
here's the thing though... the dead cells show is coming. so in theory it would make more sense for motion twin to keep it going. i guess in a way it gives their version of the story a bit more credit in the idea of "it's complete".
Or it gives them an excuse to blur the Evil Empire logo on the trailer to further their brand for their new game
The idea that we got so close to ending this thing normally is what makes me sad. They very clearly had a plan with the current (maybe forever) beta.
The massive turnover thing is much more of a recent development in the video game industry. There has always been an element of change in it, but lately it has been 2 years here, 6 months there, 4 years there, and 3 months here. Used to be closer to a decade or so in the 90s and 2000s.
That thumbnail is CRISP
They should just borrow from how the later entries in the Scary Movie series were marketed: “From 2 of the 5 creators of Scary Movie 3!”
Two things: In answer to your question at 1:01, "Can companies truly earn goodwill?", I say yes. I trust Devolver Digital and Team 17 to find weird video games and bring them to entertain my brain. Also, From Software has my trust. Also also, specifically to @Asad Anjum, welcome to my feed! I have also only beaten Dead Cells to the point where the credits roll, and that's fine by me.
Just learned that Devolver Digital is publishing Tenjutsu, so I'll be buying that one when it releases on PlayStation
Oh, yeah! I was excited about that game when I watched Devolver's showcase, but I completely forgot that it mentioned Dead Cells because unless it's a whole team, I see that as a marketing gimmick.
I remember playing Dead Cells a few years ago and enjoying my multiple hours where I only able to beat the game with 0 Boss Cells lmao. I didn't know about this story and found it super interesting! And I've never heard of Windblown before and probably won't play it. Great vid!
I just got it yesterday and managed to beat 0BSC in about 5.5 hours of total playtime. Probably not gonna do 5BSC though. Looked up a few things and 90+ hours is on the low sidr, but 200-300 is like average. I'll just put in 30-50 hours and beat 2 or 3 BSC and call it a day.
@@thenonexistinghero That's valid. I do NOT have enough time to put in hundreds of hours into a video game like I used to lol
can anyone explain what "supporting a game" actually means? i mean the game's finished, it's done, it'a a good game, anyone can play it from now up until the heat death of the universe, what more do people want? what's the point of constant updates if the the product is already good?
Fr finally a good opinion on this
@@Hi45999 i'm genuinely asking what i'm missing here, as i hail from a distant, pre-internet age, when "supporting a game" wasn't a thing and developers were releasing finished products
@@dextro808 oh
@@dextro808 I think it's a grey area between a live service game and a classic game. It's cost effective to continually develop a single game over a span of in this case 7 years than to develop say a sequel or two sequels. I think that's the major reason why we don't get sequels as often
@@karthikeyanv661 ok but what's live servicey about Dead Cells?
It's okay bro, the game is still perfect...
I'm coping so hard rn
So this is basically the "from the creators of left for dead" nonsense we had a few years ago.
This reminds me very much how Dungeon Defenders suddenly stopped getting FAN MADE updates when yet another remake was announced and put into early access. Officially things can be said to be one way but things like that always send a message to me akin to 'we want people to focus on this thing now, we can't have something else even remotely overshadow it'. Its always just sad. I'd hope they'd let evil empire finish their stuff first, maybe just let them make a send off update with all the stuff they had planned for the future instead of things being so abrupt. It's bizarre to me.
If back 4 blood can market itself as ‘by the creators of left 4 dead’ then motion twin can certainly market themselves as the creators of dead cells
It's kinda painful to play Dead Cells now. Half the passages you can explore end in a "Buy THIS DLC to continue!" or "Buy THAT DLC to continue!" And if you want to buy all the DLC to get rid of those messages and maybe see some new locales & weapons, it'll cost more than 100 dollars! I can't even recommend Dead Cells to anyone anymore, I just say, "Wait for the complete edition to come out on Switch 2" because you're just paying to get upsold at if you buy it now.
100 dollars??? Buying the whole game and the dlcs costs nearly half of that.
@@grasswithaguncould be an issue with currency, some games tend to be more expensive in other places.
This did bother me for a while, but the base game is still enjoyable imo.
If you ever did want to get the dlcs, they go on sale frequently. Right now I believe you can get all of them in a bundle for just 16 CAD, not sure what currency you use. I can't recommend one way or the other. I bought the dlcs recently after owning the game for a while and it'll be a while before I get to all the extra content
Everything is a Ship of Theseus in the end, so none of this should surprise anyone.
Hey, man. Fantastic writing and presentation.
I said it in the Dead cells reddit and i bassically stand by this point now; they feared having dead cells still on activity would hurt windblown so they basically short-ended the games lifespan. Most important of all, the last uptade was stated, some time before the drama, to not be the games last (or close to last) uptade, despite its name, which when we consider the whole DLC planned ahead by EE, just gets worse for MT. I personally will not buy their new game and i feel most of the Dead Cells community aware of the drama feels the same, and just for the sake of it: Dead Cells was made by Evil Empire.
Interesting topic. Reminded me of when I played dota/dota2 and how an individual called icefrog practically kept the game going with updates and balances. Altho he may not have been the creator of the map or game, his involvement singlehandedly made the game what it is today and it's success.
If they're gonna end it, let us mod it.
Thats why we reject brand loyalty. If any new games by either MT or EE are good, it will have nothing to do with the success of deadcells: it will be of their own merit.
And as you show, keeping track of the actual talent behind a game is a lot more complicated than what studio logo its attached to.
The best commentary-ish video I’ve ever watched
Sounds like, their system of giving everyone the same share in the company didn't have the desired effect, and instead, made everybody think like a CEO
I did get clickbaited but the video was worth it
This feels like the StarCraft situation all over again.
3:34 what the hell is windblown
I consider this to be a situation similar to that whole Back 4 Blood and Left 4 Dead situation. Compare Windblown’s to Rogue Prince of Persia.
Windblown’s base gameplay looks very similar to Dead Cells and looks very polished but seems very… uninspired to me design wise. In comparison, Rogue Prince doesn’t look half as polished gameplay wise, but the art and animation looks very appealing.
From that I think that while Motion Twin obviously built the foundation, I think that the polish and personality came from Evil Empire.
There’s obviously more than one creator of Dead Cells, but it’s a question of whether or not it’s the base concept and core gameplay that makes a game, or if it’s the nuance and personality that makes Dead Cells what it is.
This just makes me sad, man. The gaming industry is going downhill, and not even Indie/AA games are safe anymore.
Thanks for the lowdown, whole thing has been real confusing
Motion Twin advertising Windblown as "by the makers of Dead Cells" has the same vibes as Turtlerock advertising Back4Blood as "by the makers of Left4Dead." Technically true, but those individual makers in question weren't the ones that made the game in question so great-