Overdue Doctor Who Review: The Angels Take Manhattan
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- When it comes time for Amy and Rory and depart the TARDIS, Moffat decided to bring in the Angels once again. And thus began the awkward clashing of an emotionally driven story and the monsters designed to function in meticulous clockwork narratives. So... how did that turn out?
✔ SUPPORT ✔
Patreon: / councilofgeeks
Tip jar: PayPal.me/coun...
✔ OTHER CHANNELS ✔
Break Room of Geeks / @breakroomofgeeks
✔ SHOP ✔
Merch: www.teepublic....
Book that I Wrote: a.co/d/atfibBA
✔ SOCIAL MEDIA ✔
Twitter: / councilofgeeks
Facebook: / councilofgeeks
Instagram: www.instagram....
✔ OTHER PROJECTS ✔
Podcast with my Partner: fireandwaterpod...
✔ CONTACT ✔
E-mail: councilofgeeks@gmail.com
Mail:
Council of Geeks
PO Box 4429
St. Johnsbury, VT 05819
#doctorwho
![DID IT SUCK? | Doctor Who [THE ANGELS TAKE MANHATTAN REVIEW]](/img/n.gif)
I cried more at the end of this episode than any other Doctor Who episode
I still contend that Season 7 is effectively two separate seasons. Season 7A (the shorter one) has different companions, different intro, even a different TARDIS interior and outfit for the Doctor. 7A and 7B are also separated by a Christmas special. This *feels* like a season ender and Bells of St. John feels like a season opener. The “mystery box” and chief antagonist of the season isn’t even introduced into Snowmen/Bells of St. John. Yes, Clara appeared in Asylum of the Daleks but the “mystery” of her didn’t kick in until the Snowmen.
Totally agree, these should be seasons 7 and 8.
I loved the concept of the Weeping Angel of Liberty, as well. I felt the idea was worthy of its own story -- essentially, the Angel had been trapped in this prison where everyone would be looking at it and it could never escape. The Doctor would discover that Angels in NYC are trying to “free” its leader and would discover with horror that the leader is the Statue of Liberty. I just can’t think of way that the Angel of Liberty could be freed from anyone looking at it (staged blackout?)
For me, the single stupidest thing in this story was the supposed fixed ending. The doctor's Tardis cannot go back to that particular place in time to pick up Amy and Rory, okay fine, I got it. But there is absolutely no explanation as to why Amy and Rory cannot simply leave New York travel to England, or in fact anywhere in America outside of that time distortion, and be picked up by the doctor (even leaving him messages as to where they are in history like he did for them)! The story acts like there's some sort of force field forcing a Amy and Rory to stay in New York... All of this is a Fallout from moffatt's idea that companions would NEVER willingly stop traveling with the doctor under any circumstances so he has to come up with really contrived reasons to force them to stop, which we will see again and again!
literally all they had to do was hop a ferry to New Jersey and the problem would be solved!
Or the Doctor could, you know, travel to a point just after the interference stops and pick them up from then?
I agree. It felt forced. If they had a throwaway line about people or things being permanently affected by the distortion in such a way that they can't travel through time without dying or something like that, then I would've been fine. Since there was no such line, I'm forever salty about Amy and Rory's send-off. Funny thing though; HISHE's Batman even pointed out how the Doctor could've gone back to saved them.
@@weejas Exactly why couldn't he come back a year later?
More then just "why didn't the doctor go pick them up?" Rory gets touched by the angel first right? Then Amy starts crying and is like "life isn't worth living without rory" so she let's the angel touch her too so that she can be with him. But... he's made of plastic!! Just go find him wherever he is now!! He probably looks exactly the same! He's lived for 2000 years without aging a day so whats changed now?!? When Amy starts crying why didn't the doctor just say "hey dummy! He's made of plastic he's fine. Let's just go look for him. He's probably in jersey somewhere waiting for us to pick him up right now." Almost like how in the episode blink where the angels were first introduced that cop calls the girl and they meet each other again in the hospital. Only difference being rory doesn't age so everything is fine.
The thing I don't like about this episode is that it says the forties are so full of time energy that the tardis can't materialize, that's why the doctor can't go back for Amy and Rory. This means one of two things. One, they will never ever ever set another story in the forties. That is a god damn shame cause that is a great setting. Two, when they next set a story in the forties the emotional core of Amy and Rory's departure is completely ruined cause the doctor could have gone back for them.
I want to like this episode. Amy and Rory are 2 of my favorite companions so I want to feel for the departure but unfortunately it makes no sense. Why exactly can't the Doctor see them again? Can he not go to that particular year? Then why not go 1 year ahead? Can the Tardis not go to New York? Then park it somewhere and walk it. What's the problem here? Also never like how the Doctor was more focused on Amy and didn't show much concern for Rory near the end
Also the Statue of Liberty being an Angel is out right ridiculous. How can nobody notice it moving? Won't any pictures of it become real like it was established in Time of Angles that an image of an Angel becomes an Angle? Yea frankly I think they became over saturated after Blink.
The way I see it, it's more something like... Amy and Rory living and dying without the Doctor has become some fixed point in time after he saw the gravestone with both names on it, and read Amy's last page. So going and seeing them would create a paradox. One maybe more dangerous than the one Amy and Rory created.
The whole "anything that holds the image of an angel becomes an angel" is just stupid on its face. Like they just needed to up the stakes for one episode so they gave them one more power.
I think a bigger problem then just "why didn't the doctor just go find them?" Is when amy starts crying over rory. Why didn't the doctor go "hey dummy! He's made of plastic he's fine. Let's just go find him. He's probably in the diner across the street waiting for us."?
It's ridiculous that the Weeping Angels are able to hunt and set up a feeding ground in New York period. People in a big populated city like New York are going to notice any kind of statue moving.
A creature that can't move when looked at shouldn't be hunting in populated areas for a main source of food and should not have that much success if they hunt in a populated area.
Moffat has always been good with the emotions. The logic not so much though.
To be honest, the Statue of Liberty thing was the only thing I actually hated about this episode.
i really like this story i feel like its fast paced Enough and the concepts are good enough to keep me completely engaged
Honestly not understanding what the paradox problem is supposed to be or how it's inconsistent. So long as your paradoxes are nested - and the ones in the episode are - resolving a paradox that then collapses other dependent paradoxes is fine.
I love this episode, despite the flaws.
Headcanon: this isn't Statue of Liberty, they just have a replica of it right behind the hotel.
Makes sense, or more sense than the original episode. :-)
you can hear it walking
My head canon is that the statue is just an illusion created by the angles.
My head canon is that my head cannon is an illusion and the statue can hear me walking :o
my logistics are pecan pie
My headcanon is that Stephen Moffat knows the Statue of Liberty is a real weeping angel, and he wrote this episode as a warning to us all.
When I first heard that Angels Take Manhattan was going to be the farewell for Amy and Rory I assumed their being stranded in the past would tie into young River from Day of the Moon, that they'd find her and still get a chance to raise their daughter (in a weird out of time way). I was genuinely surprised that's not where they went. But given they don't directly contradict it it can still be my headcanon.
6:41 "taken over" is ambiguous. It *could* mean they posses ordinary statues, as you interpreted, but it could also mean they *replace* ordinary statues, which is in line with past appearances.
I think it kind of makes sense considering how Angels are all about consuming energy and quantum stuff and whatever. It fits their mythos that they'd be able to reanimate statues.
I also like the possessing statues angle. (If I were showrunner, I might try and make the Angels one, gigantic extradimensional entity)
@@kaicreech7336 - the Weeping Godess!!! Have you been reading my scripts, Kai?
I love that River's advice included that the Doctor is uncomfortable seeing someone age. It's the classic immortal's nightmare to watch your loved ones pass on before your eyes.
Haven't seen the review yet but I'm guessing you're gonna rant about the Statue of Liberty Angel. If I'm right I get a favorite
Ahem...
Your business is appreciated
Wilo Polis LOOOOOOL
I remember seeing a post years ago about people questioning if the Statue of Liberty was an Angel that got locked in place for years because it’s always being looked at by someone.
And I thought it was a stupid idea then let alone when it got into an actual episode.
I like that idea as like a headcanon thing but like....oof not in the episode
The other thing which I have to ask about the statue of liberty being an Angel, what about the merchandise with the Statue of Liberty on it. Because in the previous story, it was established that the imagine of angel, becomes an angel itself.
Joel Brown the idea of thousand of weeping angel keyrings and fridge magnets is hilarious
RAGGEDY MAN……GOODBYE!
This episode has its heart in the right place (places?). Shame about its brain, because that apparently took one look at the script and went "oh well, guys, you'll have to manage without me in this one!"
Moffat loves his goodbyes, but one thing I feel he hates is actually killing off beloved characters. He couldn't bring himself to do it even in cases (like this one, or Clara) where it would have made sense, and it gets really frustrating after a while, because once you know no main character is going to be killed off, the show kinda loses some of its stakes. (Not that Davies was any better in this regard, and it's still too early to tell for Chibnall.)
Add in "P.S.", and this episode rises to the level of "bearable", but not much more. The actors have to bear the entire load here, and they do an admirable job of it, but they do it in spite of the screenplay, not along with it. Not as bad a goodbye to companions as the next time, but still fairly mediocre.
You need to do a short bonus video on the PS minisode, set just after this. Gets me every time :(
Oh please, do this one.
It breaks my heart every single time.
Honestly my biggest nitpick about logistics in this one was the not being able to go back to get Amy and Rory. If river could get everyone home from a space station in who knows what future time, without the tardis, why couldn't she do that this time?
But I agree you kinda have to let the logistics go on this one to appreciate the emotional stuff. It is so emotional I usually skip it when rewatching the series.
I love the Rooftop scene and Amy's last page, but the rest is just kinda a bleh episode to me
My other problem with using the Statue of Liberty, aside from the obvious problem of her getting stuck somewhere the second she tried to move, is that she isn't a solid stone statue like the other Angels we've seen, but rather plates of copper surrounding a frame. If the Angels can imitate her, they can imitate anything. If they can be a hollow metal frame why not imitate, say, a car? Or an air conditioning duct, that might be useful in their hotel of death.
Politesse well no, it’s the weeping ANGELS, not the weeping CARS
Omg air conditioning unit of DOOM
@@Qwibbs this comment is an endorsement for youtube to get react emojis ala facebook. I need a laugh react right now.
Please don't forget to do P.S. the scene that they never filmed!
Its filled with plot holes like nobody notices The Statue of Liberty unless they're on the roof after seeing an old version of themselves. The Doctor and Martha get struck by an Angel and are able to record half a conversation and re-programme DVDs for Sally Sparrow to find and send the TARDIS but if Amy and Rory get sent back they're stuck there. All this happens after they've finished debating if they should spend the rest of their lives in their house or with The Doctor.
Amy and River keep this episode solid for me. The logic is simply not, but the two of them handle the emotions so, so well. Also of note at Amy's goodbye, and I've seen this said many places, so it isn't my idea but: after Amy disappears, the Doctor crumples, turns in on himself. And the angel doesn't move. Meaning that River is still staring at it, so the Doctor can have his moment. Woman's just lost her mother - again - and holds it together to keep the Doctor safe. River is amazing.
I don’t think the paradox ever actually worked. It almost did, but it didn’t.
I’ll take proper emotional beats over proper time travel logic any day.
I haven't recover from this episode to this day to the point I have not been able to see it a second time since it release. It broke my heart.
I feel like this was the episode where I really thought that the Weeping Angels should be put to rest. They were phenomenal in Blink and Incredible in the Season 5 two parter, but in this they were only ok. They weren't terrible by any means, but considering they're seen as one of, if not the, greatest monsters of new who, this was quite underwhelming. The more they came back, the less special they felt.
I think you're underestimating Moffat's character and emotional work across his era quite a bit; all of his finales are very character-focused and most of the time have some great emotional pay off.
Shredded my heart. We'll still be together? Yes! Rageddy Man goodbye!
Maybe I'm bias (I love a noir and I love the Angels) but this is pretty great, regardless of the plot holes.
Quite. Plot holes shouldn't ruin a good story.
I think Steven Moffat makes a rod for his own back with his ostentatious "look how clever my timey-wimey stuff is" schtick.
One thing I *hate* about this episode is River's excuse for not travelling with the Doctor: "Not all the time. One psychopath per TARDIS, don't you think?"
First off, the Doctor ain't a psychopath. *Stop tryna diagnose British icons with mental illnesses, STEVEN!* Everyone thinks Sherlock Holmes (one of the most emotional - if blunt - fictional male characters of his time) is known as a sociopath now!
Secondly, there's always been at least two "psychopaths" in the TARDIS when they travel together. What's changed here?
If Steven decided he wanted to keep River as an occasional companion (like Mickey or Captain Jack), that's fine! But the justification is just so lazy. Why not have River say *"No. I can't travel with you right now because you wouldn't be travelling with me, you'd be travelling with their memory. Amy and Rory are dead and I look like them."* That would add some emotional weight, and actually allow us to see how River is reacting to the essential death of her parents.
*This* is why people accuse Steven of having an emotional disconnection in his writing.
He could have added so much to River's character and the Doctor's situation with a single line, but instead he opted for another tone-deaf 'quippy' line.
I actually don’t like the ending of this episode, I understand that Amy and Rory have to leave the Tardis, I don’t actually disagree with that. It represents them settling down. but my problem is that it REPRESENTS that. Why does them settling down have to be metaphorical? They are in a situation where they are FORCED to leave the Tardis. It would’ve held a lot more emotional weight if they’d decided to leave the Tardis.
I think I’m more unfavourable towards that because almost every companion since 05 has been forced to leave the Tardis, and I really don’t like that pattern. SOMETIMES PEOPLE DECIDE TO MOVE ON, IT’S BELIEVABLE.
Only Martha has really left voluntarily.
Yes and that would have been boring AND there would have always been the possibility of them coming back. This gives permanence to their characters.
@@claytoncourtney1309 What would be boring about them deciding to move on. If you watch the classics it happens all the time. I’m sick and tired of the nuWho writers thinking that every companion has to have some sort of tragedy where their life gets ruined. Very few classic era companions had a tragic ending and it wasn’t boring at all, and none of them returned.
This was actually the first time I ever saw the Weeping Angels and they terrified me to a point where I couldn't walk to my room (I lived in a basement at the time) without having all the lights on XD
I hate ONLY TWO problems with this episode. Why is NY broken so you cant land there but Doctor visited NY many times like wtf. Second problem WHY CANT DOCTOR VISIT AMY AND RORY. I maybe get why they cant travel with him anymore but why Doctor cant visit them is stupid.
It’s not that New York the place can’t be landed in: it’s that specific window of time he can’t land in. In the story he can’t even get there in the first place until River gives him a signal to lock onto.
The idea of New York being broken, at least for a few decades, I'll accept, but cross country busses are a thing, planes are a thing. They could literally just leave the area. I think it could have worked if they themselves became a problem, if their own timelines from that point were such an anomalous mess that the TARDIS wouldn't go near them.
I think my favorite part of this episode is how they actually show non-Angel statues moving for one scene. Love that they finally acknowledged that onscreen, beyond just implying it.
So funny about Moffat not telling emotional stories. Because I think his big strength is that he tells them really well, and, man, he swings for the fences with his concepts. But he also gets carried away with his own cleverness. I mean, those last episodes of season 10 was an exquisite emotional journey. Has anyone making that criticism really seen a show that wasn't? I have. I think they're insipid, clunky, and not worth my time. All the complex, cool hijinks aren't worth a damn if you're not telling an emotional story.
I would bet most of Russel's notes on the episodes Moffat did under him are poking holes in concepts and forcing Moffat to devise real solutions. The problem is, once he became showrunner, no one had the clout to say that to him anymore. And at a certain point he started to convince himself he could sprinkle the fixit magic of "Well, It's Doctor Who," and it would be fine.
I rationalise the Doctor not being able to go back to save Amy and Rory as a consequence of times he's changed significant events (most notably the ending of Waters of Mars which is a theory I've heard about for Children of Earth as well). Also it's weird that the Statue of Liberty is even an Angel as I'm pretty sure that it's not made of stone.
It’s metal
It isn’t. It’s bronze. But they do cover why he can’t go back: the timelines are too jumbled for him to land there. Is why he couldn’t get there in the first place until River gave him a signal to lock into.
@@CouncilofGeeks good point.
@@CouncilofGeeks
Then why don't THEY leave? Take a bus or a plane back to England or wherever as long as they're outside of New York?? Plant messages through history the same way he did for them so that he knows when and where to pick them up...
I could maybe see staying if they had no one waiting for them oh, but they do, their parents will never really know what happened to them!
@@CouncilofGeeks Could remember it was either copper or bronze but was just saying it just was not stone.
Do you have a 12th doctor cosplay and will you be wearing it when Overdue Doctor Who catches up to his era?
Yay! Notifications seem to be working again 🔔👍
Haven't watched your vid yet, but 😭😭😭
"What bears the image of an angle becomes an angle." - That's how the weeping angles took over every statue in New York.
Angels. It reads so weird as angles
"Morning, Sergeant Angle."
The weeping acute angles
Well the whole idea of weeping angels is kinda stupid if you stop to think about squirrels, or rats... or spiders...
'cause if they freeze when perceived, how small must a mind be before that doesn't count as perception? It's established that you don't need to know what it is, or perceive it as a threat, for the effect to take hold, which should mean a squirrel brain is more than big enough.
But as for this story... I can let some of its rule breakage slide because one thing that *not making sense* can do really well is create a sense of fear, of not understanding -- a sense that just when you think you know your enemy's capacities you will find that they do something that shouldn't be possible -- and it absolutely does that here.
and my logistic is almond
I REALLY hate this episode. Like you said, the Statue Of Liberty Weeping Angel was stupid. I don't even like it as a concept. It's just so corny. EDIT: Oh, and it was kind of a rip-off of Ghostbusters 2.
One thing that ruined this for me even before I watched it was the way Moffat promoted it. He kept going on about how it was going to be a real tearjerker ending for Amy and Rory. This kind of ruined the emotional impact of the story for me. I knew they were leaving, and it was going to be sad, but I kind of got the feeling of being bludgeoned by this. Does that make sense?
And I'm sorry, but River does get on my nerves at times. This was one of them. I did like her in the graveyard scene, though.
All that said, I have watched this episode again recently (I bought the Season 7 DVD set), and it had improved with age. Still not one of my favorites though.
Next time do not watch the show runner talk about the show.
I do agree that River gets on my nevers sometimes as well. She is a caricature sometimes and not a character.
What rule did Moffatt set that he broke? The rule was once they saw Old Rory it was set in time, and it was. Something would happen that made sure Rory would go back in time and grow old. The paradox fix simply was not the solution they thought it was.
Apart from the afterword, this was peak Moffat wankery, deplorable writing.
I know it's a nitpick but when I saw the statue of of liberty I was like its not made of stone, it made of copper how can it be an angel. 😅
Don't paradoxes happen more often than not in doctor who
This episode is possibly the greatest evidence that Moffat as show runner created episodes by player with doctor who toys and reading fan fiction 😂😂
No hate to Moffat. Hes my favourite show runner of new who
Yeah, logistically, not one Weeping Angel--including the Statue of Liberty--could EVER move, because, y'know, New York City...
But who gives a shit? This is an amazing, emotional, beautiful episode that's about Rory and Amy and their love and dedication to each other.
And you're right, all the actors rocked this one!!!!
It's the city that never sleeps... maybe everyone just took that well earned rest when Lady Liberty went walking 😂
The ending of this episode is so stupid. So the Doctor can't go back to New York 1936... so why doesn't Amy and Rory go literally anywhere else and have him pick them up there? Just hop a ferry to New Jersey and the problem is solved! Or have the Doctor land in a slightly later point in time. Here's an idea for a better ending, the Doctor tries to go back and get them but arrives later then he intends to and finds that Amy and Rory have settled down (even adopted a kid) and they choose to stay in the past. This time Amy decided that she was done waiting for her Raggedy Man.
It's even more stupid when you realise that River was able to provide a point for the Doctor to land in New York 1936 so why can't Amy and Rory do the same thing?
Don't think there's been anything saying angels can't take over existing statues, kinda makes sense if they want to blend in.
Absolutely heartbreaking, I loved Amy (and Rory). it makes no sense to me that the doctor couldn't go visit them. Someone, PLS explain why. the comedy elements were great too.
This episode lost me right near th"e start, when the private detective went out on the roof. My reaction was the same as his: "Ya gotta be kiddin' me". I just could get past the stupidity of that scene.
Sometimes I wonder if it's a deliberate running gag that Nathaniel says the titles of episodes wrong ... In any case, it's fun and would make for a good drinking game! :-D
Good God this episode rubbed me the wrong way. It's one of the few episodes i refuse to rewatch. How the hell does an Angel the size of the Statue of Liberty move silently when it's effing HOLLOW? *RAGE BUILDING*
Liberty Statue gets even more stupid when you take into account the Statue was made and it's not alien in any way. Which brings so many more stupid questions.
Willful suspension of disbelief. Geez, don’t let the Dorkey statue distract you. This is Doctor Who, remember?
It didn't move silently, that gigantic boom that the Doctor said was coming for Rory, I think that was the Statue of Liberty.
Still a bit over the top, but it's sort of explained.
River says at the start that the Angels have taken possession of statues all over New York "Not all but any" which means they also have the ability to take over exisitng statues. It doesnt say anywhere they have to be stone. As to how it moves without being seen, a perception filter would be the obvious way given how many of them there are in the city and why noone notices save the victim.
Angels Take Manhattan, making the Weeping Angels only as scary as Ghostbusters 2.
The soundtrack of this story gives me the chills when I think about it
Honestly this is one of my favourite episodes. Totally not bias because of my favourite companions, doctor and tardis team. I can remember I was like seven when it was live and I watched it and I didn't know they were leaving. I was hiding behind the pillow from the angels whilst crying my eyes SO MUCH. I still do ngl.
I'd count the paradox thing as aligning with the "you can try make a paradox but it won't work" idea
I remember watching the first time. They make sure to show the Statue of Liberty in the background, and then on a poster in the elevator. I was thinking, I hope they don't make her an angel. And they did.
Then used her again with the stomping and such. Just kind of dumb. Too many eyes in NY for her to move. Not to mention she is copper and a little bit taller than the average angel.
Anyway outside of that, and the loosey goosey time rules, it is a very good episode. A little of the weeping angels creepiness and fear. Much emotion about Amy and Rory. And while a sad ending for us, they live out their lives happily together.
I feel bad for Rory's dad though. Hopefully the Doctor goes to tell him.
Just a thought - you mention in this video being okay with the rules of Time Travel being maliable in Doctor Who in general, but your complaints about how Paradoxes are handled in this episode all hinge on how other Doctor Who episodes handle paradox. Why would the handling of paradoxes not be as maliable as every other part of Time Travel Rules? I found that, within this episode on its own, paradoxes were handled entirely consistantly? Possible, dangerous, and the more of them you make the more dangerous time travel in that space/time location is.
Something I'd love to see in series 13 is the 13th Doctor ending up in 1940's/50's New York and meeting Amy & Rory, and they have one last adventure together. I know that'll never happen, but we can dream! The Weeping Angels are a case of be careful what you wish for. After their fantastic introductory episode, "Blink", we wanted to see more of them, but when we did, they lost their scare factor. This episode does rectify a few of the problems "Time of Angels/Flesh & Stone" created, namely the neck snapping and Angel in the eyes things, but the Statue of Liberty being an Angel is something we could have done without.
The idea of the Angels "possessing" statues sounds like a reference to a throwaway line in Dave Stone's Missing Adventure "Burning Heart". (Imagine a crossover of the Sixth Doctor and Peri with the Judge Dredd comics. No, really.)
The Doctor remembers a time when he infested a more human frame.
Given the antipathy between Dave and Grand Moff Stephen, this is likely to be a coincidence.
Pretty good summary for the episode.
Commenting to help you with the algorithm
The Statue of Liberty could move because it's New York and nobody cared enough for the sights to register. "Yeah the Statue of Liberty is moving. Earlier the Empire State Building started singing opera. Welcome to New York"
Other than my New Yorker nitpickiness that critiques every depiction of New York City by a director and writer from the other side of the pond (or continent), I remember enjoying and appreciating this episode quite a bit. Yeah, Lady Liberty got an eyeroll, but it was a cool concept and shot, and forgivable.
As for Moffat and emotion and logic, would I be wrong in suggesting he's being held to a Joss Whedon standard, and that fellow could put emotion, logic, and humor in the same episode? (I've seen it mentioned that Davies drew inspiration from _Buffy,_ at least as to the format of episode story plus season arc. So the comparison is not unreasonable.)
In my opinion, this wasn't a good way for Amy and Rory to go. As you pointed out, this episode makes very little sense, because it keeps breaking its own rules. If something has been established as inevitable, it shouldn't be so easy to prevent. Also, I don't understand why that rooftop scene is so beloved. It's a pointless extension to fill in time. We all know that Rory will jump, and that Amy will jump with him. The emotion is empty, because 1) Everyone knew they would come back to life right after jumping 2) There was no way that Amy would prevent him from jumping. If the audience knows something will happen, there are no emotional stakes.
Their exit also made little sense because, as someone else pointed out, Amy and Rory could simply leave New York and get picked up by the Doctor. The only reason that the graveyard goodbye works emotionally is not because we're unsure if Amy will follow Rory, but because we're unsure how the Doctor and the Ponds will respond to this forced goodbye.
Here's a way to fix the last plothole I mentioned: the paradox freed the prisoners of the hotel, but the hotel itself wasn't wiped from existence, merely banished to some place outside of space and time. After being touched by the angel, Amy and Rory had to live out their lives in the hotel, which the Tardis couldn't find again because of the paradox. Eventually, Amy and Rory manage to escape through some technobabble method (emerging in 1930's New York where the hotel used to be), but the long-term effect of their stay in the hotel renders them physically incapable of travelling through time (maybe the paradox-stricken angels could emit anti-artron energy). Thus, Amy and Rory could be stranded in the past, but there would actually be a reason for them to be stranded. If stupid scenes (the rooftop dilemma attended by the Weeping Angel of Liberty, the scene where the Doctor heals River's wrist with regeneration energy he shouldn't have, and the unnecessary ways of establishing how cool River is) were removed, there would be enough time to integrate a sensible explanation that could have the same emotional beats (that would actually mean something because they originated from a plot that makes sense).
If I came up with this in less than ten minutes, a professional show-runner who thought himself to be clever should have been able to think of something like this in the weeks it took to create the story.
The Statue of Liberty thing is a great example of what's wrong with modern Who. "This will look cool and be memorable." "Yes, but it makes no sense." "Cool and memorable!"
Although I like River Song, I wasn't keen on this story overall; and, furthermore, I don't like making a big drama out of the departure of companions. That was dealt with better and with less fuss in Old Who, in which they generally just resumed normal life - rather than being stuck in the past or in another universe, or having their memory edited, or whatever. New Who got it about right with Martha.
I could easily overlook the bullcrappiness of the logistics of this episode, and Amy & Rory's exit especially, if I wasn't completely over having them around at this point. I want it to get me because they're really great, but it just doesn't.
Not the best episode, but a good episode for Amy and Rory to leave on. I also appreciate that it was not a typical “Universe is ending” finale, but a small personal story of the Doctor and his companions. That is probably why the ending resonates so well: even though the stakes were “low” in that only a few people were in danger, it is still a loss that profoundly impacts the Doctor and the audience.
Though I am a little disappointed you also didn't touch on the oft held fan solution of picking Rory and Amy up in Jersey if the Doctor couldn't travel to NY.
I would be totally fine if they confirmed that the Statue of Liberty was an Angel as a side note or something, but based purely on the fact that it's in New York, it should never be able to move. Ever.
I don't like this episode. I like moments of it but even while watching it, I was distracted by how little sense it made. Like even the reason why the Doctor is unable to visit breaks down when you just think. So the reason he can't visit them is that he can't land in the time window except for when he can because someone (River) can somehow get him to lock onto a point he can land. So why can't Amy and Rory do the same?
Add to the fact that I never really liked River and started disliking her since her origin was revealed and the negatives outweigh the good for me on this episode. It's a shame because the main cast are good in it, they just had a nonsensical script to work with. It's shame because if you see the rooftop scene with Amy and Rory without the context of the episode (and ignoring the statue of liberty there), it's an excellent scene when you're just able to witness its emotions instead of the fact that nothing makes sense.
FYI I just found this review sponsored in the Google article od the Tesla glass that spontaneously exploded while on a charger. Way cool!
While I agree with you that the whole "can we change the future?" thing is a bit inconsistent, I think that while Amy and Rory's transportation to the past and therefore their deaths was fixed the way it happened and the events leading to it could be and were changed. This is just my opinion, btw
Looking forward to your review of the snowmen cause COSTUME CHANGE! And bells of St. John for 11s best costume
Yeah I... I don’t have the purple coat.
@@CouncilofGeeks Ah that'll make your review of Journey into the centre of the TARDIS even more accurate then
I love Amy, Rory, and River and their emotional beats. And love the novel. Then it goes haywire.
To me this episode feels like a reintroduction to the weeping angels cause in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone 2 parter the angels get sucked into the crack in the universe as plot stated anything that is sucked into the crack ceases to exist so it's like the angels made in the Russell era of the show no longer exists and moffat could recreate them anyway he wanted that doesn't mean every decision was a good one in the episode it's also a hard episode for me when it comes up in rewatches of season 7 cause of how well I like the Williams as characters and how well Karen and Arthur play the characters and seeing her again in the Matt's last Christmas special gets to u cause Amy was the perfect companion for the show
This is one of favorite episodes, the Statue of Liberty bit not withstanding.
By the way, the Statue of Liberty is made of copper, not stone, so how were the Angels able to take it over?
Headcanon The Angels regretted turning the Statue into an Angel so they promptly vacated it because they realized it was a stupid idea
Great character beats and interactions. Terrible use of the Angles. This episode is dead on mediocre. Not because every thing in it is average (like in most of series 11) but because the good stuff is equal in weight to the bad stuff. The fact that Amy and Rory escape everything but then get taken away anyway is heartbreaking is a little jarring. The time travel stuff is completely off the walls and drive me up them. Also fuck the statue of liberty. The only way no one is watching the Statue is if they've all been blinded and it adds nothing to the episode
The way you described the "timey-wimey" bits (I haven't watched this in a *while* so I'm going off memory and your description) makes a sort of sense. One-often-meets-their-destiny-on-the-road-they-take-to-avoid-it-type-time travel, which has been done before in fiction. (I also find that neat).
But everything you said about the emotions beats and scenes and everything is *spot on*
The scene of Amy and Rory jumping - that *music* - almost moves me to tears. Every time. Love it.
And that goodbye, and 11's utter heartbeat, and Amy and River - *everything* is GREAT in that.
funny that river gets married to the doctor at the end of series 6 but this is the only time she properly shows up in the season
New Yorkers are used to rando loud noises throughout the day and night. They don't care to look out the window
Rory Williams: The man so nice they killed him twice.
A lot of great stuff in this episode. But also some really dumb ideas.
Completely agree! Great episode but the entire thing makes no sense!
It was only a few episodes ago they were going to divorce yet here they are inseparable
Am I the only one that thinks he would look awesome with the 11th doctors hair cut
Point blank I can not watch the episode at night it freaks me out.
Are you going to review P.S.
Horrible send off for them. Horrible use of the Angels.
So... this was the first episode of Dr. Who I ever saw