This Has NO PLACE in Warhammer
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- A word to the wise about relationships in wargaming.
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I think this is fine and good, to an extent. One of the big issues is who determines what is "Political". A club I was in was totally fine and normal for the most part, a few hotheads and such. We had one guy that flirted with me and I turned him down because I'm not into men. This revelation wound up having like 4 of the guys label me as "That woke girl that spouts woke stuff." and I got asked to not bring up politics, when I never did. I only ever said "I don't date guys.".
Who I choose to date isn't politics, but a lot of people sure seem to think it is.
Imo, if you're going to have a "No politics at the club" rule, you need to have a clear list of things that is broadcast as "This is not politics, even if you have political opinions about it, we will try not to talk about things that cause these issues, but responding politically to them is what we don't want to happen here."
No, what you described isn't "talking politics". What you stated was a fact about yourself and was pertinent to the conversation. No reasonable person would claim you were being "political".
@LetsTalkTabletop exactly, that's my point, you can't always tell what thing will cause otherwise normalish people to start being a problem, but as someone who runs that kind of thing you have to be able to go: "no' what was just said was not political at all, but your response is."
The issue with that can kinda come with the area you are in is that some things can be considered "an issue" that in other places wouldn't be. It's a tough thing but as long as the organizers are focused on including everyone that's not being an asshole to someone else then you can usually be fine.
@@LetsTalkTabletop We don't live in a reasonable world.
Everything is political, people just don't understand what politics is.
As I've stated before in other comments, maybe it's my leadership, maybe it's my community, or maybe it's my region, but we really have no issue in my club. Everybody gets along and everybody is welcome. And once I got thinking about it, I think it's probably been at least 2 years since I had to say anything to somebody about being overly political. And even when they were, it was usually a joking jab at a politician or something. In almost two decades of running this group I have never once had anybody have a problem with somebody because of who or what they were. 100% of the time it has been because of power gaming, etc. Now I'm sure different regions or cultures may have varying mileage on this topic, and maybe I don't realize how good I have it, but it really has been a non-issue. People come to my gaming club to play a game.
And cheeto fingers. Nothing ruins a paint job like cheeto fingers lol
I agree!! Same on rulebook pages
Disallowing political discussion means people can snipe in little statements free of repercussions because no one is allowed to disagree or discuss it with them. That's a breeding ground for resentment.
Standard formula for "safe spaces", we've seen this for years now, it's 100% predictable, classic Marxist routine.
Luckily the people in my club don't do that. I see where you're coming from though. Believe it or not, our gaming club is a bunch of people that just want to play a game.
@ same! i havent seen a person who openly started a debate. we had once one who started one in the Whatsapp, and then we kicked him out of the chat.
Leftists are determined to stop any self-respecting white men who aren't ashamed of their ancestry from ever being able to relax or have fun ever again, because if they do then that's "Nazism"...sick of being stuck on the same planet as these cultists.
@@easyyo6784 If you got someone who being a arguement goblin... you got to kick them out anyways. 😂
I've got mixed feelings about this. I am actually a politician (part time), so I am in a position to change things (a little bit). Part of my political job involves working for people who hold different political opinions. Some of those opinions are easier to respect than others, but while being elected gives me a mandate to pursue a particular political direction of travel*, it is my job to represent everyone, whether they voted for me or not. (*I'd also caveat that by making clear that I don't assume that everyone who voted for me supports everything I believe or that may be in my party's manifesto.)
I tend to find bans on talking about politics tends to shelter those with SOCIAL (rather than political) beliefs I disagree with. And as someone who does talk about politics fairly often (including with people I disagree with), I do find it annoying to be told 'you can't talk politics'.
That said... I agree wholeheartedly with the point you make about being argumentative not changing people's minds. People are complicated, and even people who hold views I find very uncomfortable usually are more nuanced in practice than their stated beliefs would suggest. There is normally some common ground.
And I do find that people who take great pride in having arguments with people who are 'wrong' can also be very annoying.
So personally if I'm at a club, tournament, event, etc. with people I don't know, I'd work on the assumption that we're not their to talk politics, but if it comes up, then I'm happy to discuss it (even with people I disagree with!). And normally people do give little indications as to what they believe and it's possible to either recognise a connection and both go deep into a discussion that you both enjoy (as people who believe the same thing or as people who respect each other's opinions enough to have an engaging conversation) OR to recognise that nothing good is going to come of this and it's best to avoid talking about it. There's no point talking politics with someone when there's little/ no mutual understanding or sympathy and you're only going to interact with them for a couple of hours anyway.
I do also think that being too judgemental or dismissive can prevent social interactions that over time enable people on different sides of an argument to build enough mutual respect to agree to disagree and, perhaps as importantly, to find some common ground.
But I find it unlikely that I'd become friends with someone I avoided talking about politics. I have friends with different - sometimes very different - politics. It's one thing having a game with someone you never see again and ensuring that both of you enjoy the game. But to actually become friends over time, I would find it very strange if we never talked about anything that had some sort of political dimension to it.
Ultimately, I think what matters is how you implement such a rule. If your club is 'no politics' but welcoming and inclusive and encouraging then that sounds like a sensible approach. If 'no politics' is applied unevenly, then you have a problem. And if 'no politics' is applied very strictly to paper over huge disagreements then that doesn't sound like it's going to be an enjoyable environment over the long run. I think it's much easier to apply a rule like this at a tournament where a) you're only talking to someone for a short time and b) you really are both there for a specific thing (the game). If you're hanging out with people every week, then hopefully you can find enough about each other to like each other or at least ignore each other to make it work.
Good comment! I will give you a pass because you're an elected official apparently, so talking politics would be second nature to you. Many people just want to relax and roll some dice at a club. Forget their worries. It's crazy to me how the policy of no politics could be construed as anything other than just no politics. None. Don't talk about it. Is it really that impossible for some people? This is truly insane to me. Luckily, our gaming club just comes to play a game. It's not like I'm beating back the political comments everyday. Matter of fact I bet it's been 2 years since I've even had to stop someone from saying anything political. And even when they said something political, it was always like a small jab or a small joke pointed at a particular politician. But I knew what would happen and I would shut it down quickly. And yes, our group is inclusive of anybody who wants to play. I've never turned down a single person for any reason other than them being a butthead or a power gamer who had been crushing children routinely in their games and warnef several times. Like I said in another comment, maybe I live in a bubble but it really is not an issue in my area. Or it could be that my leadership in my stance on it prevents it from being an issue. Or it could be that I just have a really great group of people who just want to play a game.
Thanks for your reply. Although I'm a politician, in a lot of circumstances I don't talk politics - or at least, I don't bring it up. But it does come up. If you're at a work meeting or a tournament, you exchange pleasantries and get on with things, but if you hang out with someone for any length of time (including someone you see regularly at a club), sooner or later someone will ask "what did you do at the weekend?" So most people I know, do know I'm interested in politics.
But it's what comes next that matters. Some are very interested and want to talk about it. (Great!). Some are not (also fine!). It's normally pretty easy to tell whether someone is not very interested in politics, but interested to talk to someone who is a politician, or if they're really not interested. None of this is a problem unless people want to get into a serious, heated argument, but actually this is very, very rare. Even if it's apparent we hold very different political views, it's normally pretty easy for one / both of us to say "well good for you" and to move on. I think it's very rare for anyone to start trying to impose their views on someone.
So when I say it's odd to be told not to talk about politics, it's because my experience is generally that it's not a problem. It's normally something that people are actively interested in, or uninterested in... and everyone moves on.
The other reason I find it a bit odd is that there are things in the hobby 'universe' that tend to spark contentious political debates. For example, nerds hanging out to play nerdy games sometimes get to talking about nerdy films... Which can be where political / culture war arguments start. While I don't tend to want to talk about these things because I don't want to fall out with people and when I'm gaming I'm NOT there in my capacity as a politician... I do find it a bit uncomfortable to be told we can't talk about things. I'd prefer to be in a situation where people can take the hint - that I don't want to hear about how some film studio is pushing an agenda, whatever that agenda is. I guess if you need a rule because some people can't take a hint (and it's true that some can't) then I can see why you have it. And it appears to be working for you.
You touched on a couple interesting points. I guess I just should rephrase my statement. It's not that I've constantly had to forbid politics being spoken in my club, it's that I lead by example and I don't discuss it, and the people in my group don't discuss it. The few times in the past were somebody wants to make some sort of joke towards a politician or whatever, I have shut it down pretty fast. We're not here to talk about that. But I understand even now the way I'm describing it sounds very tyrannical. It really isn't that way. Generally it never comes up and having thought about it, it's probably been 2 years since I had to mention to somebody at the club that they need to cut it out with the politics. A lot of the personality of a group is its leadership, and I am not offensive to anybody, I'm happy to welcome anybody who wants to play, we are welcoming to new players, always happy to run a demo, and stay away from topics that would be potentially inflammatory. And I guess my group just follows the example. It could also be that my region is known for being very laid back, and it could also be that I just have a great group of people. Your mileage may vary.
@@LetsTalkTabletop So, in your group normal and educated people are fine with playing with trumptards? I call bs.
Bro I play Admech, I need both of my braincells to remember half of my rules. I aint got time for any chit chat during the game!
I’m the same. I hardly talk except if it’s about the roll results, clarifying rules, commenting on other stuff.
Slightly different angle for me
I used to keep quiet about my political opinions in my game group with the end result that everyone just assumed i held the same opinions nearly everyone else did
So that when i decided to start disagreeing and offering up my own POV with people i considered peers and friends, it was complete disbelief and concerns i had been radicalised or mentally ill 🤷♂️
To be fair they were absolutely willing to "help" me but once it was obvious i was genuine in my opinions, i discovered that for everyone willing to agree to disagree with me, there was someone equally happy to no longer interact with me in any way shape or form
Thanks for sharing! Although in my club we don't discuss it at all. It sounds like in your group they were discussing it and you just stayed quiet. I think you'd be more at home in my group!
I mean as ever it depends on the opinion, but for the most part different political ideologies shouldnt stop people from being at the very least acquaintances
We all know which "ideology" is steadfast in their determination to exert more control and exclude others, while claiming they're being "diverse", etc.
You should disregard the cowards, speak your mind wherever you are. Its your duty and right.
@@Adamantios-Alian I would also attach "Be ready to destroy any foe be it with words or legal."
Too many wankers want easy prey and we as a whole need to show we are ready to be who we are instead of "unit 14586"
There is only war.
The real question is did you come to play or not.
War gaming: common ground for realizing the modern media’s engineering of political divisiveness on us when we know we are all just humans who desire mostly the same things. Like the Eldar kicking ass again.
I hate these kinds of rules. I want to know if the people I’m spending time with are really the kind of people I can respect. I can respect liberals and conservatives but I can’t respect hypocrites.
I think your reason for attending games isn't for the firm reason of having fun and enjoying the hobby. Your views are your views. Why interject this into a conversation over a game?
It's like you don't need to ask who the vegetarian is, or who the pilot is. They can't shut up about it. The most divisive people are the ones looking to spark political or religious (including ardent atheists) in hopes of stroking their ego.
Prepare to be disappointed
That's pathetic
Good way to live a miserable life. Good on you, I guess.
I play solo so I can agree to disagree with myself.
Totally understand. I disagree with myself all the time. Hardly surprising given the amount of rubbish I talk....
I saw a guy lose to himself once and he divorced himself 😂
Risky business.
@@Subject_KeterI think I would just strongly disagree with my self and it would end in a fight! 😂
Nah I just don’t want to hang out with people who would want someone in my family dead.
Literally can't tell which side you're supporting or denigrating with that comment. Maybe both sides should start actually listening instead of throwing around wild rhetoric lol.
@@TRENCHESandTREADS Lol, I'm pretty sure trans people don't want Christians dead for who they are.
@@bl4ckfl4g conservatives don’t want anyone dead who hasn’t committed r*pe or murder. Are you talking about the left supporting Ham*s and you have Jewish family members?
When I was in a gaming club, we specifically told every new member that we allow people to discuss politics. We don't allow them to argue about it. It's a great benchmark to see if they're a good fit for the club. Because we found, that if somebody can only argue about politics, there are usually other traits about them that make them a chore to play against/with.
Very interesting take! Like I've said in a couple different comments though, it has never been a real issue with my group to begin with. It never went farther than some friendly ribbing of a political figure, although I was still quick to shut it down. It has worked well for us for almost 20 years.
Solo gamer here. It's amazing I can talk all the religion and politics I want, and I completely agree with myself .
Unless you're Gollum
To an extent sure, but if their politics are that me or someone i'm close to should have their rights stripped from them or something like that i'm not going to be able to stay buddy buddy with them just because we like the same wargames.
This is a very naive take my guy.
then you should stop showing up to the club so they can play without your hand wringing lol
@anguishbresneiv2223 Or I can carry on turning up & playing with decent people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@JakkoThePumpkin Fully agree with you Jakko
Centrist crap like this is a moral void and enables bigotry.
"Good News everyone, we reached an agreement with the Nazi's and they're only going to kill 50%
of the 'out' group" - Some %$@#ing Centrist
So you are'nt buddy with someone wanting to strip your right to drive a car that harm the planet?
@@Azrael56 That seems very specific but no, i'm not currently buddies with anyone that wants to take away my right to drive a car that harms the planet lol
“Agreeing to disagree”
I’m not going to agree to disagree with somebody who wants my friends and I dead. Asking me to pretend to be ok with that is a coward’s move.
nobody wants you dead stop with the hyperbole and dramatics
Do you honestly believe there exists a political group that wants you to die? Most people don’t care as much about you as you believe they do nor as much as you think they should.
@@rymic72 Democrats still exist, bozo.
Imagine unironically equating disagreement to thinking someone wants you dead. You are the coward in this scenario. Unless we're talking actual extremists on any spectrum (and no Republicans/Democrats don't count)
@@Mr.Funnyman273 but they don't want people who are different than them dead.
We can agree to disagree about tax policy or OSHA regulators or traffic laws. The same does not apply to bigotry. Kick hateful losers out of your game club. Ignoring that shit is cowardly and leads to long-term rot. I've got plenty of friends, I don't need to be spending a Saturday gifting a bigot with a polite game.
Listen to your own advice bigot.
@@Official_Random_Guy See? some divisions are too deep to "just ignore." I'll hobby with folks from any background... but the folks who volunteer to make ignorant hate part of their core beliefs aren't people who I'll tolerate during my leisure time.
@GoobertownHobbies I'm pointing out the irony of your statement by stating that nothing is more insufferable than those who claim to be anti bigots whom are the biggest bigots of them all.
I would gladly play with you if you kept quiet about your politics which literally has nothing to do with the game, but you just refuse to budge from this position and have to force your politics into the game regardless.
Scott's video here was exactly pointing this sort of thing out.
The worst part of it all, is you will leave this conversation unchanged and undeterred from your original position and still believe you are in the right.
Just like how I original and faithfully called you out for.
@@Official_Random_Guy Is bigotry a core pillar of your political beliefs? That would be tragic.
@@Official_Random_Guyit's pretty telling that they mentioned bigotry and hate and you act like those are "just politics"
Everyone has a right to play with or not play with whoever they want for whatever reason they want. It’s a game, not some inalienable human right. Nobody has a “right” to anyone else’s time or attention for something like a game.
But yes the best way to avoid this is to just avoid talking about politics/religion/etc…
The problem is that lots of people don’t think their politics is politics and think it’s just “basic decency”, “common sense” or something else and have no qualms about constantly bringing it up. It’s political brainrot.
There are a lot of groups, especially online, that have “no politics” rules but freely allow and even encourage one side to constantly post about politics nonstop.
We could just all do the mature thing and not play with people that make us feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.
@@Khitch2-2 then you better not play 40K XD
@@bobdole8830 I do and have been for years. My group's been pretty cool. We have a sorta idea that warhammer is for everyone and as its hit the mainstream we've been growing a ton to the point on events the store is almost packed to the brim.
I think in the whole history of things we've only lost 4-5 folks for making people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. 😁
We could also just not bring up topics, like politics, that would make people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.
@@jaystephens2203 only bad thing is, some people believe in the freedom of "I walked into the group, licked a baby and got thrown out"
Cant help those people but that shoulsnt stop us.
@@Khitch2-2 Warhammer is for anyone, not for everyone. Learn the difference.
Alls long as everyone’s safe. Common values (even if broad) create a space for all.
Failure to respect folks dignity and identity is one of the reasons gaming spaces can be unwelcoming and unsafe for folks.
Normal, sane people don't have any "common values" with people who think and talk like you. Your inability to understand why is the cause of your need for safe spaces, censorship, authoritarian rules and such. Get over yourselves, your ideas are just bad.
I identify as an ancient Hellene (Greek) does that mean I can speak freely? Or is this only a facsimile of a free people and culture?
Wow, you really love the w0ke lingo, huh? Why is it you can't just say "people"? Is it offensive to therians and otherkin or something? Never really understood the Progressives' obsession with using the term "folks".
@Adamantios-Alian No, that wouldn't be acceptable with his type. They think European Paganism is racist and needs to be totally revamped, so unless you reject all of the teachings of actual Hellenistic thinkers like the Stoics and Cynics and such and instead believe in 2020s-style Progressivism which merely wears the skin of Hellenic culture for aesthetic reasons, then no, you would not be welcome. Oh, and you would also have to pretend that Ancient Greek civilization was colorblind and that the Turks are the rightful ancestral rulers of Anatolia, and Greeks never lived there. Wokies think that white people never lived anywhere outside of Europe until the Age of Sail. For example, if you pointed out that Cleopatra was a redheaded Hellene, they would freak out and call you a white supremacist because they insist that everyone in Ancient Egypt was black.
Uh oh they censored my comment here, must've been something true.
I want to get away from politics too, so I don’t mind it not being a point of discussion in gaming. But if my fellow gamers turn out to hate my family members because of their identities, then I do not want to socialize with them. We can disagree on tax rates and which church to attend (or not to attend!), but today’s political environment includes dehumanizing my family and that is not something I will paper over. This is the take of a straight white man whose existence isn’t “political”.
Care to speak English on the matter? Your family members are what race exactly? The people who are ‘dehumanising’ them are leftwing/rightwing?
Care to actually elaborate? Sounds like a strawman argument.
@ What’s the strawman here? The closest thing to an argument there is that today’s political environment includes lots of dehumanizing rhetoric about immigrants (and, I will add, trans folks), and I have close family members in both groups.
@@KyleMaxwell ahh there it is.
Ok. Saying that a ‘trans woman’ is a man, is not a proclamation that they are ‘not human’. A man is a human.
Saying that someone who has broken into a country illegally and thus must now be physically removed is not a proclamation that they are not human. They are a human that has broken the law and will be treated as such. Criminals are human, the criminal justice system ‘existing’ is not a advocation that criminals are ‘not human’.
100% agreed.
I MISS FUN!
Listen, agreeing to disagreeing is a wonderful thing when you talk about silly things or if the politics aren't really that opposite.
I'm leaning left, i know people leaning right, that's ok.
But no way i'm agreeing to disagreeing with someone who is far right just because we are playing warhammer.
Being mature is being able to compromise, but also having the balls to say f u and draw some lines and have some standards, if you are not able to do that you are not really mature but just a people pleaser.
The irony here is that I was wanting to learn to play 40k, but because I wanted to start playing Tau because I liked the Kroot, I was mostly treated like a kicked dog by my LGS. Literally getting scoffed at and being told to "get a real army." So then I made an entire army made up of larger scaled battletech minis, and suddenly everyone wanted to play.... right up until I told them it was a Tau army, then folk just floated away.
You should try OPR GrimDark Future if you can find games it is a much better game than 40K and players are much more welcoming IMO.
The hatred for tau is usually always just a running joke. I can't believe anybody would actually trash talk you for it. That's nuts and it illustrates how childish people can be.
The majority of Humanity lives in a cult.
@@LetsTalkTabletop No way I am excusing actual attacking of Tau players but it reminds me of Team Fortress 2 and good Sniper and Spy players.
If you ever encounter a Sniper or Spy player who either hacks or played all day for a long time, it is straight up oppressive. Snipers can quicklu scope in and hit you for half your hp multiple times while Spies just need to stab you on really finky sections to instantly kill you. And if you manage to kill the spy... they probably used a get out of jail free card to recover and faster then you can get them.
This one time back in 2014? I was in a lobby with a high ranking spy and he killed so many enemies the rest of the team had bugger all to do.. luckly it was coop gamemode but imagine one guy taking out like 8 players in 8 seconds.
I think you would need that osprey auspex guy to "crunch" the numbers if thr Tau are still that evil but i say getting half your army blasted off by cheap rules is going to make some prone players flip out.
For me? I like them battlesuits with options but.. imagine a smol rts game where you command a squad of battlesuits... 😮
@@Duppyman695 yes all 4 people that play that game are really friendly :)
Honestly, being able to talk politics with people you disagree with is kind of a good vetting process for friendship. If they can't have a civil discussion they aren't going to be good gaming buddies.
I think the "being a good ambassador" is the biggest piece of advice, it allows people a way to subtly stand by their principles. When I was younger I grew strong political beliefs that diverged from my gaming group who were also very old and dear friends, and it caused a lot of friction, but when I mellowed out, our friendship benefitted and they ended up seeing things more my way too.
Exactly! Thanks for sharing!
Could honestly not care about someone's political opinions as long as they show up with passion for their army and a desire to sling some dice. That some people think it's more important to bring that crap into a gaming club where we're pretending to blow little miniature soldiers up with Space Rockets blows my damn mind. And they're serious about it too. It's straight up Good vs Evil for some and just can't be dropped.
When I see this sentiment expressed, it's almost always in defense of the type of people I don't want associate with. I'm perfectly okay playing games with someone who disagrees on economic policy, but I don't budge when it comes to hatred. I don't want to play games with people who use slurs, bully others, and advocate for "male only" spaces, all things that somehow get chalked to up to "just politics."
Communities must be built on caring for each other. Empathy and compassion first. If your "politics" involves hating other people, you're a bully and I don't want to play games with you.
Amen
"The Imperium is driven by hate" was posted for a reason. That reason being a freaking nazi in Talavera. You know what should not have space in the hobby? Freaking nazis.
Most of the time you wouldn't know if you weren't trying to sniff it out all the time. Normal people don't interrogate people about their opinions unless invited too. Nor do normal people share unprompted opinions irrelevant to the current situation. When I go to martial arts tournament, I don't start pestering the other participants about their stance on Isreal and Gaza or whatever and if I did I'D be the a-hole in the situation not them, regardless of their opinion.
@@Dram1984 Speaking for myself, I never start a political conversation with someone who I don't know well... but I sure as heck can recognize a dogwhistle when I hear one. I recognize a strawman argument when I see one too! ;-)
@@Dram1984 Have you seen the discourse around Warhammer in the last year especially before and since SM2 dropped? You practically get forced to engaged in politics because some people cant grasp a black (not salamander) marine or a female custodes. We all know WHO is disturbing the scene with politics and it aint trans people, women or "leftists".
So "Progressives" can form their clubs, and rightists can form their own as well. No dissidents want to play with self-righteous woke cultists anyways.
Nah, if my family isn't safe around you, I'm not gaming with you.
I can agree to disagree about a lot of things, but some things go beyond politics.
And why would your family not be safe around someone you're playing Warhammer with? This rhetoric is wild.
@TRENCHESandTREADS then you haven't spent much time in wargaming.
I have absolutely met people in wargaming, in Warhammer and others, who it wouldn't be a safe thing to mention my sisters married to a dreamer immigrant, or that my significant other is half black, half Jewish, or that my oldest child is a lesbian. I've rolled dice across the table with guys who actively talked about how women should be bought and sold to guarantee men had wives to keep the country going. Who have said that every African American should be deported, and so on.
You never met the guy who was a little to excited about painting his guard up with iron crosses?
I run events at every level. People are welcome from all over the political spectrum. But I'm not able to extend that welcome to those whose specific ideologies causes them to indulge in hate speech, threats, or plots to harm others who are attending, or potentially visiting those attending, my events.
@@seansartin8866 What the fuck
@@TRENCHESandTREADS Well, I've seen death threats against Conservatives because Trump won(Recorded and still available online). Maybe the commenter is referring to their family, who might be Conservative?
nothing wrong with Iron Crosses
Kinda agree, kinda disagree.
Your main point is that it is preferable to have a friend even if that friend shares none of your values. This is kinda disagree with. I also believe that, yes there is a spectrum of political opinions which can be "agree to disagree"'d upon however there are opinions which are incompatible with the understanding of our society. Opposing those that are outside of the accepted political opinion (which we would classify as extremists) have to be opposed.
Being that your comment was reasonable and not insane like some others, I will reply to you. I understand where you're coming from, but if you want to change the hearts and minds of the people around you, you have to befriend them and show them the error of their ways through actions, not words. Be the perfect example of what you want your friends to believe in. Pushing them away will not change their mind.
@@LetsTalkTabletopI agree, and this is what I do at my gaming club. We have a wide variety of people with a wide variety of political stances, yet we all agree to ignore these differences to enjoy the hobby together.
Nothing changes these peoples opinions about those who are drastically different than them, than to be drastically different from them yet kind and able to move past their political stances by simply showing them how to do, in just the fashion you are advocating here.
Playing the game and keeping the divisive topics out of the game because it really has nothing to do with the game in the first place.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Fair enough, I get that and I am not saying that every opinion that disagrees with me is "unacceptable". However what I say, that even in a democracy which thrives on varying opinions, there are opinions which cannot and should not be accepted. And for those people, I don't think I can change their mind by being nice to them. It is also neither my objective nor my purpose to change their mind.
EDIT: As others have put it correctly, I do not need to tolerate people discriminating against others. Warhammer is for everyone.
I agree! We all just need a little escapism.
@ There are things where we can say "we agree to disagree" and there are other things where that is just not possible. Those opinions often get viewed as political but to me none of these are political as there isn't an opinion to be had.
"The earth is a somewhat spherical object", "Non-straight people exists" and "people with physical trait XYZ deserve the same rights as everyone" are all facts and not opinions despite some people labelling them as such.
Agree that the hobby is about escape and conviviality. Disagree that our social time is best spent with people radically at variance with your values. Politics is too broad a term these days, and what many people now mean by "politics" involves core assumptions about reality and societal rules once considered basic, because those subjects have been unwisely politicized. Should a group fracture because of different opinions on a bond issue or what the optimal tax rates are? But it's very hard to just sit down and have a nice time with people who despise you. More to the point, you can't thwart entryists who have decided to enter the group with the express purpose of subverting it. Conquest's Second Law of Politics really does hold.
My group has taken the other tack: members must agree up front that they hold certain beliefs. It's a religious litmus test rather than a political one, but it implies a lot. And the entryists who look to subvert it would never make the public profession required.
The problem isn't politics but most people being petulant children. Bipartisanship and people not understanding anymore how the democratic process works is destroying the fundamentals of societal discourse. As soon as there are forbidden topics when people meet with each other you know there is something VERY wrong with society. I occasionally do have discussions about political topics during downtime in tabletop games and it never was an issue, but that's because I do surround myself with people that are emotionally and intellectually mature enough to respectfully voice their opinion and can accept someone else having another opinion on the same topic. That discourse is how the democratic process should function, not people yelling propaganda from the top of their lungs at each other
1000% agree. Nobody can have a civil conversation without labeling each other or accusing each other of things that neither of them have ever done. I have friends that believe the exact opposite I do and we get along just fine.
Sorry someone who thinks people like me and mine are subhuman and votes for people who also think that aren’t “a good guy regardless of “politics”(aka what they believe in)”
Ironically, I feel like this video is actually itself fairly politically-charged. The idea of 'you can be friends with people you don't agree with' TENDS to be (not always, mind) a very right-wing talking point. Primarily because it's people on the (far) right that openly question the right of other human beings to exist. And they want to frame that as 'just a difference of political opinion.' Which is, of course, just nonsense. This type of rhetoric essentially serves the purpose of allowing people that have truly horrible beliefs to gaslight you into being their friend by being like 'yeah, but BESIDES the fact that I literally want your family dead, I'm actually a super fun person.'
Finding out you have different political opinions shouldn't be the immediate end of friendship (or acquaintanceship). But the meeting of the minds and openness to the differences of others only works up to a certain point. And being able to have honest, adult conversations about our differences is essential to finding that common ground. Equally essential is understanding that sometimes there is no common ground.
The entire argument of this video SEEMS to be 'if you don't know someone actually hates you, then you can enjoy playing a game together.' And that's, actually, kind of gross. I understand that's probably not the ~intent~, but it's certainly the result of this kind of thinking.
Yeah, I'd both agree and disagree with that rule for similar reasons. It's the "No Nazis in the bar" rule, because you don't want to let politeness keep you from calling stuff out before it gets hard to fix. People who feel I'd be going too far for choosing to spend less time with them because they've got some heinous beliefs are not seeing the whole picture. Will they be there if their friend, the one they're voting to criminalize the life of, needs help? How could they possibly make that promise? So of that friend is no longer someone you'd want to call up, they're not really your friend. If they're polite and good folks at the club that's fine I guess, but it really depends on exactly what it was you found out about their politics.
I certainly don't share my politics freely, and think that's generally a good standard to avoid derailing things, but even among people who I know share my opinions I want game time to be game time.
It seems to be the opposite- when Trump was elected, it was the leftists who chose to cut-off friends, family, spouses etc. You won't find tone-policing or censorship in right-leaning people, who tend to promote freedom of speech (which includes freedom to debate and cut-down bad ideas/opinions).
@@neilwickman Absolutely. I think it would be weird for anyone of any political leaning to make their politics something they just talk about all the time. I'm here to game, I don't want to talk about politics anymore than I want to talk about music. I enjoy both. Just not here.
At the same time, 'let's not talk politics' is tall grass for snakes. And in a world where basically everything is politicized, it's almost impossible to spend significant amounts of time with other people without them having some idea of what your politics are, in a very general way.
So the reality is; those people not talking about it are probably not talking about it because they know their politics will lose them friends. Because they want to ~play games with you~ - but they'd also be more than happy if you just stopped existing.
I'm very openly left-wing, for example. There's a decent-size segment of the right that outright make statements about left wing people being traitors that deserve to be deported or killed, or whatever. I don't want to spend time with those people just because they pretend they're not repulsed by me because they need people to play a game with them. And those are the first people, every time, to scream 'you shouldn't cut ties with people over politics.' Yeah. Sometimes you should.
@@RedHandedGod I like that phrase! "Tall grass for snakes" is a good one.
@@RedHandedGod There are certainly those that keep quiet about their politics because they have fringe or extremist views. But there are also those that keep quiet because so many people have bought into political tribalism, and they assume if you align at all with the left or right wing, that means you have bought into the whole package of ideas that each side puts forth. Not saying you buy into that personally, because again individuals on each side of the aisle can have their own nuanced opinions, but there are many on the left that will hear mild opinions like "we should have better border security", identify them as conservatives, and assume they have the same views on race as Goebbels. Same goes for those on the right, political tribalism cuts both ways and the reality is that most people are in the middle, worried about being misconstrued as extremists.
The problim with the no polictics at the tabble rule is that the DM /group leader decides the polictics allowed or not allowed at the tabble if there a liberal it means no conservitve polictics if there conservitve it means no liberal polictics you eiter have to allow all or neather which one violates free speach while the outer is censership of free speach . What gameing group would you prefer to be a part of one that lets you be yourself free and open to talk about anything even if they disagree with you on stuff or one that says shut up and play the dam game when you when you open up your mouth about anything outer then the game . One group gets to know each outer outside of gameing which is how you make friends the other is only there to play the games the game master leader decides for them to play the 1st sounnds more fun and frandly to me the free speach one the other seems like a cult dictatorship where you follow the leaders rules no matter what and they have all power
What if your playing polictical games ? And everthing war area control historacal or fantasy and sci fi has polictical eliments to hit
About 6 months ago, 3 months before the election, everything was flooded with politics. A constant stream of hate... from both sides. It was a daily chore to avoid the barrage of BS coming from any of it, and a bit of a mental health issue for me, the DM.
I came to the table one day and announced "NO POLITICS! I am here to have a good time." (Even though some of my players opinions i agreed with) "It's just ugly, and it's poison that will kill my fun, and in turn, your fun.
"The response was "sure, that's fine, or whatever. dude" I had already booted disruptive players over the years so they knew i was serious.
Well it's been 6 months and not a political snipe, or barb in any way at my table. and for at least 5 hours a week, we have been having a blast.
So for my group at least, I'm happy to say they chose fun and escape, over politics at the table. But honestly, i was a bit worried it wouldn't go over that well.
That's exactly the same result that we get in my group. Everybody just comes to play a game and it's as simple as that. Not everything has to be politics. You need time to relax and play a game without the stresses of everyday life.
My social outlets are wargaming and live music... if I spoke openly about my political opinions I would no longer have social outlets 🤷♂️
Seems like a no-brainer to stay well clear of those topics.
I agree it's a no-brainer, but check the comment section. Yeesh.
@LetsTalkTabletop Willing to bet a significant portion of commenters who disagree share a particular political leaning. I will never comprehend that scorched earth, broken friendship, attitude towards these topics.
@ I used to think it's because they had made a religion out of their politics but virtually all the religious people I know are able to get along with people with different beliefs just fine.
Is there even an intellectually honest way to completely avoid political opinions when you're playing a game like Warhammer fantasy with its own explicit nations, economies and class systems or 40k which is set in "the cruellest and bloodiest regime imaginable"?
Enforcing a "We don't talk about the real world" rule when playing simulated war gives me some nasty cognitive dissonance.
@ I mean it’s literally the way most people interact all the time. People go to work, they go to school they go to stores, parties, events, etc… and don’t as a rule have constant shouting matches about issue X or Y.
I'm 46 and have been hanging with the same guys for thirty years. We've never really argued in a toxic way before until Covid hit. Something changed and know we have to walk on eggshells when it comes to certain politicasl issues. We're mostly centrist gen x-ers, never had an issue with edgy and offensive jokes, never had a problem agreeing to disagree until recently. Now for us it's not to the point were it ruins our friendship, but if people that have been friends as long as us get so heated I can only imagine how it is with strangers. We're not even American and still American politics are affecting us in such a major way.
That's what propaganda does to you. I've noticed something similar with myself. Used to be that I watched shows without taking note of the ethnicity of characters, they were all regular people doing things and getting on with their life. That changed around when Covid hit, maybe a bit later, and it was all because of the endless train of propaganda and people arguing online about how something is offensive when it really never was before. Your brain switches tracks, because it naturally wants to belong in a group, and absorbs the opinions of the group. The fact that the group is random strangers on the internet doesn't matter.
This is the honest truth. Back in my regular warhammer club days we had a son of a baptist minister, a person mid sex transition, a black guy, a hispanic, a Buddhist, and a bunch of white dudes. Everybody got along and played together FOR YEARS. (till family, time and job transfers broke up the group) The early 2000s were somehow MORE inclusive and accepting of people's differences than the 2020s for some reason. Now you go to the stores and you are liable to see marines with SS painted on their shoulder pads. This is why I only play home games these days.
I was with you until the end and you got triggered by toy soldiers. Would fem marines be cool, but pseudo German marines be actual, real-world evil? You seem to imply that the player is a bad person. I have a praetorian army. Do I want to be a sneering imperialist? No, I think their helmets look neat. And none of them are real.
Original wargames had soldiers with SS on them. It's a wargame, not real life. Relax.
I doubt it. No one plays at stores any more.
@@oldAzekai The fact that you would equat a character being a woman to a character being a member of the SS is indicitive of a hiliarious level of brain rot. I love young people, you kids are wild.
@@HeadCannonPrime my local is like your description of the old days, trans, conservatives, etc... we can bond over a shared interest without being cvnts.
Where did you get the clear display case on the wall behind you?
They are Funko Pop display cases from amazon. There is a smaller version for 40 something dollars and these are the larger versions for 70 something dollars. It is the better deal per square inch
Way to many time I see, "no politics" rules be leveraged against people who make valid accusations against others that don't obey the "no politics" rule. So it just ends up being a one sided political group that says, "nuh uh, we're an inclusive group with no politics." 'Oh an inclusive group, can I play?' "No, you're ____. And we don't like your kind."
'Now you're being prejudice against me.'
"NOOOO POLITICS! WAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!"
Sounds like too much trouble to be worth it. Frankly, I think interacting with most Westerners is a waste of time and energy. The mind virus that has taken over the West has ruined any semblance of community and decency we used to have. It's funny, leftists would call me a "white supremacist", but I see eye to eye with the average East Asian much better than the average white person. I just can't stand illogical, highly emotive thinking. I like when people are rational and reserved, not high strung and preachy.
See another reason to keep airhorns in the store.
1 is for blood bowl turn overs, the other is too stop political talk
Haha. Now there is an alternative I hadn't thought of!
This is great. We are currently dealing with this problem at our local shop and club. I say dealing but really nothing is improving. The organizer is the problem though, not a player. We will not stop making bad prejudice comment. When he gets called out about it he turns and saying he is just joking. We have seen him soft ban people too from even people trying to bring it up with him.
Oh no. Corrupted leadership like that is an awful situation to be in. Maybe split off and make your own group a reasonable people?
Yeah, get out of there. No loss.
What kind of comments specifically?
Yeah, gotta disagree with you here. I don't want my gaming club to be *about* politics, but the idea that we should all get along *regardless* of politics is fence-sitting that I cannot abide by either. Your club and all, but the story about the barman and kicking out skinheads before they say or do anything "wrong" is appropriate here.
Everyone will be happier and more comfortable if "Progressive" leftists go to their own meetups and everyone else went to theirs, and you can just stay away from all of the dissidents with their no-no thoughts. As long as your clubs don't have rightists and centrists and TERFs and other sorts of leftists who aren't "Progressives" in them, you'll be happy, and as long as our clubs don't have judgmental and self-righteous wokies in them, we'll be happy. But somehow I feel like that doesn't satisfy you lot, because some dissidents somewhere might be having fun.
91% of the "grapes" in Barcelona, Spain, are done by "fricans".
My mother, grandmother and aunt deserve to be at ease.
Why should i treat them like humans when they endanger my family?
(No, im not joking, check the spanish stats, 91%. They are less than 13% of the population in the country)
Who gets to decide what the 'skinheads' are in this hypothetical wargaming club? And do those 'skinheads' now get to take revenge on the group that kicked them out?
I agree you just shouldn't bring up politics at the table. But if your politics means my mom loses health insurance, or my cousin can't marry his boyfriend, there is no "agree to disagree"
If your politics means any of those things about you, tough break. I'm not your politics. I'm your game opponent. If you can't manage that you should leave the table.
You're literally who this video is aimed at...
@matthewmatthew981 gladly. Though if you show up to game nights advocating for cutting medicare and revoking people's right to marriage maybe the TO should ban you.
@@matthewmatthew981 If you can't handle what other people think then just don't talk to them and don't play with them, that's a personal problem.
@@matthewmatthew981 To you, this might be "politics", to others its life or death. Human rights. Ring a bell?
Sorry no, when a person advocates for violence because someone has a different point of view. That’s not a thing anyone should ignore or accept
He didn't say anyone should ignore or accept people making threats of violence.
@@titanomachy2217 but you don't understand, people left of center posture themselves in a way where they will harm themselves if they don't get what they want, so if you don't give it to them, you're harming them. It's wrong but that's how they view it and what they do.
Are you actually talking about advocating violence? Are they actually saying "kill the immigrants and the gays"? 99% of the time, the answer is no.
Hyperbole doesn't help. It just makes you look unhinged.
91% od the "grapes" in Barcelona, Spain are done by "fricans". (Spanish official statistics, and our gov is pretty much "progresive")
Can we start not "tolerating them"?
It is very powerful when you make your gaming group a place where people just game. It's much more relaxing. People then value that space as an escape from the world; personal problems and more.
Totally agree. The escapism aspect, for me, even extends to those who are hyper-competitive. It becomes less of a tabletop game and more of a math problem - I don’t want a math problem! I want to do basic math to add some randomness to my beefed up game of checkers.
Exactly!
Arugh I get the need to "do good" but if you fall too deep into the rules it just not fun.
"Oh as long as my comissar is around troops, he can only allow ONE person to die!"
"What if I use s bomb?"
"Only one can d i e"
Thematic yes, but if you throw a big blob and you simply cant shoot enough, it lame.
For some reason I can't see my comment. Not sure why. I was part of Hogtown 40k in Toronto and an officer of the club spoke of vi0lence toward his political rivals. Hopefully this sticks.
Sometimes UA-cam sensors things or removes comments if it's bots think they are inflammatory or something. Or if they use bad language. You should know by looking at this comment section that I don't delete anybody's comment for any reason unless they are actually insighting violence.
@LetsTalkTabletop never doubted you for a second. This channel is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise cloud of smog and mustard. I may not be in 40k anymore but the content is insightful.
Thanks for saying that! ❤️
i think the major problem isn't so much political beliefs as much as greater problem of people forgetting how to behave and act like civil adults:
1.simply be respectful,friendly and courteous to people,even if they are not like you
2.if a politic/religous/social topic comes up and causes friction,simply stop talking about it and move on,and not go on a soapbox tangent or rant,or throw insults
It should not be that hard
What you say sounds easy, and it's exactly what we've done for almost 20 years with great success, but according to the comment section it's absolutely impossible. 🤷
I dunno, sure, you can ignore politics, but eventually politics catch on to you.
I tried to be apolotical as much as I can, but now I am afraid to got to my local hobby shop afraid I might get stopped half way through because of my skin color.
Yes. Blue fur tends to attract a lot of attention.
We are all shaped by our lived experiences. That is a huge spectrum for most people. Embrace the things we have in common.
Agreed! ❤️
Never share your politics. Play fair and live your hobby. Let the dice rule!Better
Ummmm ….. we are not in a place that we can let people say that human rights are a political discussion.
💯 "Agree to disagree" comes from a privileged position.
In Barcelona, Spain, 91% of the "grapes" are done by "fricans"...yet if we talk about it we are called "-ists and -phobes"...
Rn, in Spain, we are having more than 60-70 "grapes daily".
Spanish women have the right to be at ease?
@AlexAlex-zt3hi Sounds like made-up statistics. 🙃
Those "human rights" don't enter into the conversation at all until someone like you brings them up at the wargaming table in the first place. Sure seems to me like that's the real issue, all the inquisitors around here pretending to be good people.
@TRENCHESandTREADS As if championing freedom makes one an "evil inquisitor". 😂 The mental gymnastics are strong.
Rules like these only protect people whose views are so reprehensible that they need to stay hidden. Political views are reflections of your values and your moral compass. I don't want to play fun games with people who don't think I deserve human rights.
Pretty fucking simple bro.
Ding ding ding.
Exactly. Those people have to be kept away from our hobby.
in Barcelona, Spain, 91% of the "grapes" are done by "fricans"...yet if we talk about it we are called "-ists and -phobes"...
Rn, in Spain, we are having more than 60-70 "grapes daily".
Spanish women deserve peace?
@@AlexAlex-zt3hi @AlexAlex-zt3hi Of course you are a r4cist. And a liar.
"Just interrogate everyone you play against, forever."
Yeah, that sure sounds swell.
Saying people will stop being friends because of politics is sugar coating it. When it comes down to a good person or not. If you voted for some that is taking away rights of my friends then fuck right off. We can agree to disagree or issues and still be friends but not when it comes to human rights it's not a disagreement its core values.
Sorry, brother. I create fences for wargaming terrain, I don' sit on em.
Civility is not fence-sitting.
@@CMacK1294 civility toward evil is much worse than fence sitting
Imperium is the biggest fence sitters. Bigger then Tim Pool 💀
Jokes aside. You cant make me like Dark Souls so we good.
So which side of the political spectrum do people have to sit on for you to wargame with them?
I'm sure that mentality works for you because everyone in your sphere follows roughly the same ideology and is a close knit friend group where you can say anything, but for others in more "public" spaces?
Nobody wants to hear you preach about politics at Warhammer World. Just play the game.
I'll put it to you this way: the political climate is so extreme right now that most "political disagreements" are not about actual politics, they're about morals and ethics.
We can disagree about opinions. We can disagree about religion. We can even disagree about what would be genuine political discussions, like tax codes or foreign treaties. But I refuse to give my time to someone whose "political opinion" threatens other people's civil rights, quality of life, and basic human dignity. Why would I spend time with someone whose voted for the guy that spent an entire election cycle threatening my existence? That's not a "political" disagreement at that point.
Mental illness is not a "political opinion"....Stop the routine, it's getting you nowhere.
Rightists and political dissidents don't want to play with woke cultists who have TDS either, so the feeling is mutual.
91% of the "grapes" in Barcelona, Spain, are done by "fricans".
My mother, grandmother and aunt deserve to be at ease.
Why should i treat them like humans when they endanger my family?
(No, im not joking, check the spanish stats, 91%. They are less than 13% of the population in the country)
"voted for the guy that spent an entire election cycle threatening my existence?"
That's the exact reason I voted for the opposite guy you did.
politics give me a headache and i don't wanna. i also live surrounded confirmably unresearched opinions and oh BOY do they not like being shown they're wrong wit the research i do for them and out in their face. hell, i've been told to my face i'm wrong with it right there. if i can avoid politics i do.
all i wanna do is play games, make horror, and maybe go fishin or a bar later.
How can you be a friend with someone who is ethically opposed to you? I'd rather let people know up front that I have no interest nurturing friendships with people of a certain political identity
yeah I understand wanting to keep politics out of a public club, but I have no interest in putting effort into a friendship when the other party actively works to harm my friends
Only people in one area of politics really want to keep others out, and it's the one that claims to be inclusive, almost every time.
Got a friend who is a liberal and a friend who is a conservative. Boils down to how much is willing to listen and citations.
@@ianpage2509 I must be weird because I know anyone isnt going to change what I believe in so I can engage well.
You arenr going to make me like Dark Souls. You arent going to make me buy crypto and you arent going to make me do a backflip? 😮
If X people cant handle that, that on them not me.
Then don't be friends with rightists, nobody is saying you have to be friends with anyone. But for those rightists who do want to play, their general rule of thumb is to not bring up politics. Obviously it is no bother to you what rules rightists use in clubs where they are welcome, since you wouldn't be part of such a club.
Sound like a good club manager!
I can't stress enough how great local wargaming clubs are for meeting new people. I met my boyfriend in an A Song of Ice & Fire league. 🥰 The community for that game is awesome, it's just a shame how school's keeping me away from more leagues.
Yes! This hobby and community is a wonderful thing.
Who decides what is and is not political?
I don't know man, I feel like it's pretty cut and dry. That's a pretty odd question in my book unless you're being rhetorical. If you really need a rule of thumb, I would just stick to the topics of the game you are playing. Maybe what you had for lunch?
Normal people know the answer to this question.
If we’re playing warhammer, the only thing we should be talking about is warhammer. Nothing else matters. Not who either of us voted or our views on social issues.
@ Unfortunately there are people that just can't help playing Jr. Inquisitor and feel it's their duty to sniff out wrongthink and won't be happy until they've interrogated everyone about whatever the trendy topic of the day is.
Yeah, nazis aren’t “politics” and the people showing up to tournaments as “Austrian painter” or with obvious nazi iconography on their person or models should be ejected right away
As someone who runs the gaming clun at my school, this is SUPER valuable advice! Will for sure remember this if anything comes up, and thanks for sharing your experience! Sub well earned.
Happy to help! My goal is just to have a welcoming environment for new people and a place where people can relax and make friends. I'm sure that is your goal too!
@@LetsTalkTabletop Absolutely! It's amazing how people from completely different backgrounds, interests and ages can come together for a good game of 40k, and have a heck of a time.
It is probably my favourite aspect of this hobby, the socialness of it all.
Going out for painting sessions, mini building sessions, gaming sessions and the like has helped me and other people foster relationships with guys we would've never met otherwise, and is my favourite thing to see.
People talk about "politics" these days the same way they talked about "obscenity" in the 90s. Nobody really seems to want to admit that it's all rooted in community standards and an "I know it when I see it" mentality.
Whatever happened to "don't get him started" and "hey, this isn't the time or rhe place?"
Maybe when "politics" became so full of hate and death? When a political party is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens, it becomes more than a simple and harmless "point of view"?
Suffer not the xenos brother!
Warhammer has brought so many different types of people to my table to laugh and joke and enjoy each others company! I couldn't agree more!
One of those things you'd wish worked out without a rule ever being made.
If you need to make a rule, you're already in salvage mode.
Not true necessarily. It was never a real issue in my group but foresight told me that we had to make sure it never was. No salvage mode needed.
@@LetsTalkTabletop So you made a rule you've never had to implement in practice?
Well, I guess Judge Fish stopped some actual crimes too...
Politics and Religion shouldn't be topics around the gaming table... The problem is, people are people. And yeah, if your politics or religion clearly spits in my face, then we're going to have issues. I'd rather not know; and I damn well don't want to debate...
I came to play and hopefully have fun... And it's easy to say that, now isn't it? Why, I've seen it here, in your comments... But we are complex for people, and it is those complexities that can create friction. I have walked away from groups in the past, and I have held my tongue long past when I should have said something, too...
Be honest up front, but if at all possible, leave your politics and your religion behind when you come to game...
If you can...
Another reason for solo play, no?
Excellent video....
Of course politics has to be around the gaming table. I refuse to play with trumptards and bigots. I wanna play with people not with filth.
Bro plssss get a better mic I beg u. This headset has a 2010 MW quality.
Politics are important, it's important to stay informed. But it simply doesn't need to be in EVERY aspect of our day-to-day life.
I find it very healthy to have neutral ground spaces where these things just don't NEED to be relevant.
There’s only one political side that generally likes to try to steamroll everyone with their views and show utter intolerance…and it’s the one that claims to be the most “tolerant”.
I got into an argument a few years ago when asking for clarification. The Blood Bowl league had a sub text that read "no Nazis or Putin". With both the sides of American politics calling the other Nazis I wanted clarification. It simmered down with don't be a jerk.
Yeah there are several terms used by both sides that are way overused to the point of not having any real definition anymore. Both sides can call the other one their preferred bad guy term and it just bounces off because it's overused.
This made me laugh. I imagined a bouncer turning away Putin at the door, and him sad he didnt get to play his goblin team at the BB league.
😄😄😄
@@LetsTalkTabletop yeah, people are doing that in the comments right now, “I don’t want to play with X” but then calling you an X when you ask what exactly that means.
It’s almost always because they have an extremely and indefensibly broad definition of X that they know most people aren’t going to agree with but they want to maintain the usefulness of the label.
False equivalencies only help the side that is clearly worse.
Ah, common sense. Such a rare and valuable thing. And right along with "why can't we just try to get along for the sake of our love of the hobby?" I'm glad I found this channel.
To make your day, I will add that I do have a very diverse group of friends and we get along fine because we actually enjoy having fun together. It is possible.
Love that! Thank you for sharing and thank you for watching.
All the same, as an *old* Asian 40K fan who has been alive since the days of “Heroquest” & “Space Crusade”, it was a warm moment of valediction to have *lived* to *finally* see strong, positive, *non stereotypical* Asian Representation in the form of the *canon* Ultramarine Gadriel in “Space Marine 2.” The White Scars, though formidable, still unfortunately invoked the “menacing Fu-Manchu invader stereotype” until recent editions; it is simply so *liberating* to now be able to paint-&-play Noble-&-Regal Asian Space Marines of *any* Chapter *without* doing so being an invitation to be openly mocked & ostracized. As sung hopefully by Bob Dylan “For the Times They Are A Changing.” 😎🎸🎶☮️🪷
Glad to hear it! I'm sure that is a big deal. I never noticed that the white scars were like that, although I am not a big lore person so that's probably why it escaped me.
@ Now to see if GW looks out & listens to the positive-reactions/reception to “Space Marine 2” and make a more diverse selection of un-helmeted plastic heads. 😊❤️ Because fond as the memories of converting Lore-Accurate Native-American Deathwing Space Marine Captains for “Space Hulk” games were, it was regrettable that the only *genuinely* Native American 25MM heads I could find back in the 2000s was 3rd party Metal “Cowboys & Indians” ranges. 🥲
Hopefully by this present age, I *wont* have to dig through the awkward (and likely mean-spirited) “Boxer Rebellion” & “WWII Pacific War” ranges to find enough heads to convert an Asian Terminator Company! 😊❤️
To Equality Among the Brotherhood of Wargamers! 😊🎲⚔️🛡️ 🍻
I am 51 yrs old. if you do not want to be my friend because i did not agree with you or i voted for the other guy, ok. i am good with that. i rather not waste time with people like that. I dont care about your politics. but i am an adult, and i will discuss things with fellow adults because this is how we can develop new and better ideas. i can play a game without liking someone. i have done it at many tournaments over the last 2 and a half decades.
I must be weird, i can handle politics but not stuff like Abaddon failing... 😂
People are temporary but stories are eternal, dont mess with stories imo.
😄😄😄
@@LetsTalkTabletop it weird cuz I can smack any issue i got in front of me... but I cant smack the writers into making Khrone good 😂
I can make DnD "good" but i cant make Abaddon worthy the space in anyone brain xox
Politics is what policies we should enact.
Politics is not who gets to exist.
Did your mom put that one on the fridge? Nobody is arguing that, it's a bunch of nerds trying to play a tabletop game, go find a soapbox somewhere else.
@@iferan4166 Oh you don't have to argue it. Just sit back and let orange jesus make it so, and when people complain 'hey hey hey why are you bringing politics into OUR space?'
You don't wanna talk politics, fine, but don't act like silence isn't violence.
@ Jumping to conclusions right off the bat, but I do gotta ask. Why do you feel the need to shove your zealous self-righteous opinion into other people's faces? If this is some sort of recruitment campaign you need to fire your advertising department, they're not doing you any favors.
I could be wrong here, but I think there's a pretty clear difference between actually doing something violent, and doing nothing. But maybe I just live in the real world with a healthy functioning brain. Ah, let me rephrase that in a way you might understand. I'm "Neurotypical".
@@iferan4166 Recruit? Nah I don't sell soap.
But I don't break bread with people who want me dead, whether they wear a mask or not.
@ Of course, you're 'normal' so your stance on how the state treats people is 'apolitical'.
To use your totally clever and original example there's two types of brains: neurotypical and 'political'.
If someone thinks like above, they are hiding behind the abuse of the community not warranting talking about because it is 'political'. Suddenly a lot of people aren't invited to the table because their existence is now 'political'. Can't have neurodivergents, they complain too much about society mistreating them, right?
tl;dr? politics is policy, not who gets to exist.
I don't think prohibiting political discussions is healthy. I think a healthy solution is making friends with people you have a lot in common with, so that you don't have to step on eggshells around them. Nothing kills my interest in a friendship more than when I have to accommodate someone else's neuroses.
Playing a pick up game with a rando at a local store? I don't know you well enough to talk or joke about that kind of stuff with you, and until I figure out how chill you are we are not going to be friends, just friendly.
no, no, politics is something that shouldn’t be allowed in that kind of environment. Humility doesn’t know how to get along with differences, not these days. There are rules to the exception here and there, though. I don’t know why is so hard to understand it. There’s somethings are better left at the door. The old adage just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should. I have been to some of the games workshop stores in England and they will not let you bring politics in there nor religion. It says it should be until we can all learn to get along like Gene Roddenberry always hoped we could, For the sake of everybody, it should be left at the door. I don’t know what’s so hard to not grasp about that.
I agree, I ran my own table top gaming store for a year and that was my policy as well, it worked out pretty well.
My gaming club is also proof. Almost 20 years of running it and it works beautifully. But I think I may have misrepresented it in the video by accident, it's never really an issue. People just come to game. So I have a good group which helps
It's a shame there is no winning with people, respect that you share this opinion even if it isn't everyone's favorite. If it means anything to you, I am a minority and have always felt more welcomed in groups like this. it's totally anecdotle but I think groups like yours taking the problem out of the equation helps me feel like a human because we treat each other the same and have the same rules and guidelines for each other.
I want to go to a LGS, play KoW or Oathmark with my friends without there being the inherent social stigma about race reltions between everybody.
I also really like your comment on "life is hard and everyone has a rough time at some point", that sums up perfectly why your preference is valid for some people. We all got shit going on outside of this hobby, lets try to enjoy the less turblant time we have.
Thanks for chiming in! To be honest, the worst we've ever had for political comments is the occasional joking jab at a politician, but I shut it down pretty quickly before it escalates to anything else. I have never once, not once in 16 years of running this group ever had anybody have an issue with any person from any group of people. Does that make sense? Race and sexuality, etc has never been an issue with my group. Could be our region, could be my people, could be my leadership or some combination of all of it. I guess I just have a great group of people. But I also think the number of extreme cases is far smaller than most people want to believe.
It's definitely idealistic. I was recently part of a group that had no politics involved, then injected trans rights stuff everywhere. Like I don't care what you do on your private life, but I don't want to see that in my Wargaming. I don't hate you, I play with trans people and have no issue, but I don't need social politics everywhere, but they don't see it as political statements. I don't lean one way or the other politically, but in my experience, there's one side that's much more civil and tolerant than the other, and it's not the one that preaches tolerance
"one side that's much more civil and tolerant than the other,"
It's because it's a silent side, maybe if the majority of people are from the right the tolerance change side^^
In my entourage, lefty can say with no trouble from wich side they are but righty don't do it. For some of them I'm the only one knowing that they are not lefty and that's because they know that I don't care yoiur side if we can have a good talk about anything.
Again, Paradox of Tolerance, look it up. Youre literally uncomfortable with other peoples existence, and will willingly in the safety of a ballot booth and your own home decide they have no human rights. Maybe embrace that your fellow players are proud of their existence. If you truly dont hate them, respect their right to express themselves.
@chriskropotkin9643 or the other side could stop virtue signalling. People that constantly tell me how tolerant and progressive they are, usually have a lot to hide.
@@chriskropotkin9643but they dont tolerate me.
I have been playing since i was a teen. I never injected politics and if i say i dont want it, i get attacked. According to you, can i retañiate?
@@chriskropotkin9643 Here's a tip, actually look up the Paradox of Tolerance, because the author of it has *the exact opposite take from how you're using it*.
"Maybe embrace that your fellow players are proud of their existence. If you truly dont hate them, respect their right to express themselves."
So I'm allowed to be proud of MY existence then right? Put up straight pride flags right? If you truly don't hate me then respect that right.
Agreed. My personal views and opinions are irrelevant. I’m just there to play with my plastic toys and have fun. Our opinions on social issues and politics shouldn’t even be brought up.
Exactly!
Bro, I knew a manager of an official Warhammer store who would not stop talking about politics. He was super leftist. He kept trying to get me to talk politics and I just did not care so I never responded. I probably should have sent in a complaint to the company at some point.
"Bro, I knew a manager of an official Warhammer store who would not stop talking about politics. He was super leftist."
...Kind of redundant sir, we all assumed the 2nd sentence based on the 1st.
Any company with people like that on staff is not going to care about complaints or losing money.
It's not even leftism in general. It's specifically this nightmarish "Progressivism" espoused by the global ruling class and their followers, the Cult of Woke. I think it's kind of insulting to 20th century Progressives to call these current weirdos the same thing without putting quotes around it. I'm no liberal or Marxist, but I can at least see where the supporters of those ideologies are coming from, whereas the wokies are just cowardly mindless drones, conformists who regurgitate the talking points they've been fed by mainstream media and academia. They don't even have true convictions, they follow the wavering banner, always in agreement with the status quo. And they're just SO self-righteous and intolerant of any dissent whatsoever.
While obviously I understand the importance of the third word in your channel title, the first two words are "Let's Talk"... perhaps this means you value discussion and see the merits of talking things out. What would you do if UA-cam and GW were bought by Amazon and there was a blanket ban on meany words/discussion about GW or their "artistic / creative" choices?
I don't believe that a lot of people understand what is normal to them is politics to someone else, therefore they can (appear to) apply this rule unfairly. There's a finite amount of politics to talk about, once it is dried up people will move on. If no one is able to talk about it, the urge is never sated and the tension is always there.
Thanks for the comment! You are assuming there is some sort of tension there to begin with. I am fortunate enough through whatever reason, that my group does not have that tension. I'm sure many groups would have that tension and it would be a constant irritation, but my group just shows up to the gaming store to play a game. We welcome everybody and don't support any negative talk of any kind. So in my case the assumption that there will be underlying irritation is incorrect.
@LetsTalkTabletop sounds awful to me, some negative talk is entirely justified, it sounds like toxic positivity to me. You may be assuming how happy everyone is, have you actually asked them?
Yes, I 100% agree.
Nothing ruins a game for me quite like people who bring their real-world politics into it.
Does buying more plastic soldiers count as bills?
Yes. Yes it does. 😁
Damn this is super telling that you keep engaging with and liking new comments but ignoring every single one that says they don’t want to play with bigots.
Uh-oh, better find a way to punish him, since you're sooooo tolerant and inclusive as usual.
If you don't want to play with right wingers, then don't. Nobody is forcing you. Sheesh, you lot will whine about not getting your way 24/7, I'm so sick of you spoiled brats.
@@tattooninja You really ride this train hard my guy
@@tattooninja Tolerating the intolerant is how you get players wearing n@zi iconography to Warhammer tournaments. Not blaming LetsTalkTabletop for doing this, but there is no tolerance for those who would have others oppressed. It may be a paradox, but it's *not* a complicated concept. 🙂 You're so proudly implying hypocrisy, but the tolerance train stops at those who lack tolerance towards marginalized groups.
They're even censoring my comments to protect the terrorists as usual.
as someone who has had a club for years and now has his own store, i can only agree with this. it's what heats things up and is simply misplaced.
Exactly! Just wind down and enjoy the game without outside forces interfering.
It sounds like youre more concerned with the well being of your club than human rights. Nobody is obligated to entertain bigots.
@@chriskropotkin9643 thats right, my only job is to serve the customer and my personal goal is that everyone who enters my store has a good time.
i dont know the people you are talking about, but i have a wonderful community that has people of every political side.
we have a great time together, playing the games we love. and that is good enough for me.
@@chriskropotkin9643 Nobody is obligated to entertain bigots pretending to care about others either...
I have the same feelings about this as I do towards the obligatory paragraph in every wargaming rulebook which says 'The most important rule is that everyone should have fun. Treat other players with respect' etc etc etc. It should be a baseline expectation that other people are treated with generosity, respect and tolerance. Even if their views are 'unacceptable' in your opinion. They are still allowed freedom of thought, and belief.
You shouldn't need guardrails, or rules that someone said in a rulebook or the internet, which are therefore holy writ and must not be disobeyed, to steer you away from 'naughty' stuff - you're supposed to be grown adults, so deal with it in a reasonable way.
If you can't handle the occasional foray into real-world discussion, even if the topics might border on the uncomfortable, then I somewhat doubt you're likely to be a pleasant person to play games with.
I appreciate we’re this is coming from in the spirit it was presented. I watch your content and enjoy your take on a lot of Wargame topics. This policy of keeping Politics out of my Hobby assumes you want everyone to feel welcome. The problem is- if everyone is welcome then EVERYONE is welcome. The Grandmas, The Kids, The Pets, the Normans,… even if they don’t talk about 1066,… 1066 still happened. (A metaphor for humors Sake). Anyway you can’t invite everyone to the party and assume that everyone will be comfortable,… or feel safe. You have to declare Where you stand at the door let the Mob sort themselves out.
Thanks for watching! Luckily, you don't have to declare anything at the door, you can just be welcoming of everybody and it's never been an issue for us. I'm certain in some areas of the world that might be a problem and certain people wouldn't be accepted, but not in my club. I have about 20 total players in my club ranging from age 10 to in their 40s and they all just come to play a game and have fun with each other. Most of us have no idea what the political affiliation of the other people are and it doesn't matter. Everybody is nice and everybody treats each other well. It is very possible that I live in a nice little bubble and don't deal with the issues that other people have to, and in that case I am especially thankful!
So stay inside. You don't have the right nor the power to dictate who is and isn't allowed to play a tabletop game. They'll go and play amongst themselves, and you can play with your Progressive friends.
@@LetsTalkTabletop So you're fine playing with Nazis?
It would be nice to get away from politics, but some of us done have the option. Guys I played with in college are women now, I’m Jewish and bi.
A group of people that can sit quietly and not discuss politics sounds like a group removed from any danger.
Very white of you.
“Very White of you” yea that was racist. You’re the type of person no one wants to play with cause identity politics.
What a condescending and racist statement.
1:17 The problem with what you're saying is "it's almost always a euphemism for we get to continue to torture the people we've historically tortured, and don't get pushed back" So what you were asking for is those people who have historically been disadvantaged, and there's still in the weaker position to be allowed to be targeted (not to mention i'm safe) and their harassers to get no pushback.
in Barcelona, Spain, 91% of the "grapes" are done by "fricans"...yet if we talk about it we are called "-ists and -phobes"...
Rn, in Spain, we are having more than 60-70 "grapes daily".
They deserve that "so called right" to defend/talk about it?
Well said! I have a very diverse group and we just keep it to ourselves, gaming is an escape from reality.
It really is!
"Don't hate your fellow gamer for their politics. Hate them because they are a filthy tau player." --let's talk tabletop.
Exactly! 😁
I stopped going to my local gaming club about 4 months ago because the club president wrote up a series of rules that basically allowed people to talk about whatever they want, providing you have consent from the people you are interacting with. E.g. Are you free to talk about politics with your friends, providing they are cool with you doing so.
When he asked for my opinion I said two things: "Why are ALL the important stuff in the bottom half of the list?" and "Half of everything that is listed here should NOT be discussed in a public place that functions as a social environment".
He ignored my warning and stated he "Wasn't going to rewrite everything".
Mind you, the guy was a jerk because he regularly shared personal information about me in front of the other club members, even though I had asked him to stop multiple times.
Whenever people are inspecific about their beliefs, theyre a fascist. Maybe most people dont like that?
We have several diametrically opposed views in my group of over 15 years. We discuss what we want. And can then throw dice with no issue.
Adults self regulate. If you have those who want to fight. Ask them to step out and finish it. If i were in your group i would respectfully remind you, you dont dictates my freedom of speach. And continue my conversation to its end.
How many subs did you lose since this vid? Would be funny if you make a poll and check which "side left", or disliked the vid, etc
I've lost about 17 and gained 40 something. So it's a net positive. 🤷
@LetsTalkTabletop surprising, because the tolerant side was quite vocal about it, and if you are not part of the herd, you are an enemy...
@@LetsTalkTabletop not bad.
After the ruckus of the tolerant side, and knowing the herd mentality, its surprising they are still here
Well, my intention was not to divide anybody so the loss of any subscribers sucks, luckily this isn't my job and I don't depend on it. That's the only way you can be genuine on UA-cam. Otherwise you have to stay with the clickbait stuff. I welcome everybody to my channel and in my gaming club, it's really not that complicated.
@@LetsTalkTabletop yes, but sadly, nowadays it doesnt work that way.
Im more on the "libertarian conservative side", i have worked on nerd shops, and helped (i never was a red shirt xD) in a few of the old GWs in madrid. I have taught kids, teens and a few girls (if we only talk about gw games, because later i worked somewhere else and the list of brands/types of games increases). I never introduced my views or anything of the shorts. "X faction focus on cavalry", "Y on infantry", etc I never mentioned politics, religions, etc but then, "the modern audiences" attacked.
For me, the problem is not that you put girls (holy cow, in fantasy you/we had female elves in the 3 factions; dwarf/ves ,one for sure; humans; chaos; vampires; khemri, okay, just one; blood bowl, with a full female team and plenty of star players or single players; mordheim AND in 40k we had the sisters of battle, inquisitors, necromunda, and im forgetting things for sure), the problem is when you break your IN WORLD RULES. (for example, what they did with aragorn in magic or the rings of power, specially when they could have made a series od driz do urden if they wanted "dark elves")
It's perfectly reasonable to not play with anyone you don't want to. If I find out you have views I consider abhorrent, then sorry we ain't playing together even if you tried to hide it. Once the cats out of the bag there is no getting it back in. Some people deserve to be ostracized for being trash.
The cry of the reich wing snowflakes... maybe read about the paradox of tolerance.
💯