Note that Lord of the Rings / Middle Earth Strategy Battle went for 25 years without a new edition - and the new "edition" is just a small clean up pass and tweaking of some rules nobody was using. They CAN design game systems as well as anyone. The do have talented designers, or at least talented designers rotate through the company regularly. Management wants 40k and Age of Sigmar replaced every 3 years.
Yo Andy Chambers recently said they should have ditched Ugoigo.... in 3rd! My whole life is a lie because gw is a bunch of hacks. They are stinking up the joint I stopped a WD sub even though it is a write off because you cannot see what is happeining in the bat reps. Dark models on dark boards.... well done gents!
"Don't ask questions! Just consume product, then immediately get excited for next product!" - This has been so true, especially for Magic The Gathering lately.
@@necasperaterent29386 magic hasn't been fun for a while. I loved commander when it wasn't the central game mode wizards make products for. Now it feels like standard with how much you have to keep up with. The universe beyond crap is just them whoring out the game to corpos to grab new players
For about 2 years I worked for the GeeDub in a retail store.... this was by far the most exhausting aspect of it, and that was 6 years ago now, and from what I've seen, that has not slowed down one bit. These companies intentionally, through FAQs, community interaction and whatnot constantly tweak the game in such a way that they try to keep people buying more and more models, cards, rules books, etc. Now I will say, as a home gamer, a parent, and working stiff, things like the wizards campaign books are kinda nice. I can sit down and DM a game without a huge commitment on my part. Obviously in other situations, hell yeah we are abandoning books and doing some proper RP stuff. But, I'm also not chasing whatever "meta" thing is going on now
I worked in a RPG store in Liverpool in 1989 and GW/citadel products were the best in the industry. They had great licenses and IPs like Judge Dredd, Middle Earth, Fighting Fantasy, Talisman, Chainsaw Warrior and Battlecars..... Then, almost overnight, they opened a store in every town, dropped support for every single one of their boardgames, RPGs and miniature lines that weren't Warhammer, released a shitload of warhammer and 40k stuff that just wasnt for anybody playing on a budget. For UK gamers who werent into massive tabletop wargames it was a huge loss and felt like a betrayal.
@@LetsTalkTabletop it was after Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone left to focus on their own projects. While they were in charge, Games Workshop, its few stores, Citadel and White dwarf were the most exciting and innovative company out there and their products were always top notch, fun, and fully customisable... that is, they published instructions in white dwarf for making scenery and vehicles out of everyday objects like empty deodorant sticks and plastic cutlery, they encouraged you to use their miniatures for your own world rpgs, they would promote other companies stuff in WD. They made kick ass board games with expansion sets, they employed some of best 2000AD artists and they distributed all their product to independent rpg sellers like my store all around the UK. They didnt just support their own stuff, they supported and helped grow the entire hobby in the UK. ..Then Warhammer tabletop happened.
Kitbashing and scratchbuilding are one of the foundational parts of not only the miniature wargame hobby, but modeling as a whole. When the industry was still in its infancy, back in the 50s (and up to the 80s really, depending on your location), most model shops offered plans to build your own models from wood and cardboard, rather than selling you full kits. These were relatively rare, and even rarer in plastic. Ever since I've started with 40k back in the 4th edition, I've been an avid Ork collector, precisely because by their very nature they are a fountain of unbridled creativity. Back then my poor student self couldn't afford expensive models, so I bought two boxes of basic boyz, and got kitbashing. I've always been building my own vehicles, from looted IG tanks made out of cardboard and broken pens to massive artillery pieces with broom handles for barrels. There is a whole movement/subcommunity called Poorhammer, that plays this way, with cardboard standies for miniatures and boxes for terrain.
Yea they sold the left over bits from the showcase models they put in the store. Depending on the store there could be a lot. The store I went to in the past also showcased a lot of Customized and Kitbashed Armys now that I think of it. The only thing they showcase nowadays, are boxes content and the miniture of the month.
It wasn’t just odd bits in store you could buy, but when I started playing they had a catalogue so if you wanted a random right arm of an ogre, or a dreadnaught left shin, or pretty much anything then it could all be ordered separately and delivered to the store in a couple of days. When they moved more of the range into plastics, bits probably became less and less viable for them as splitting sprues is a manual task just adding cost to that part that may or may not be recouped.
@@GoldenDragoon you are right. What you mean was Mailorder this was pretty common back then. I remember Lego did that as well and then they stopped for basically the same reason. Cost reduction.
@@GoldenDragoon It was more that the molds would force them to cast up 6 bodies, 6 heads and 12 arms... because someone had ordered a single head. Even worse if they'd ordered a dozen of that head. I do miss the mail-order back catalogue though - there were some real (often uncatalogued) gems that you could get, right up until they discontinued it. One of my last purchases from them was a bundle of Terminator prototypes, an Ambul and 10 RT era jump packs, and I think that was some time between 2000 and 2002.
Honestly, it's mostly due to the current player's obsession with "competitive" gaming. Companies don't even really need to hide these things. A large part of current players simply isn't interested in it to begin with.
The "by the book" players have always been there. Gaming of all sorts just attracts a certain kind of person. I remember when WD had a readers letters page back in the 80's and some kid was wanting clarification on whether his space marines were game legal because he'd come up with his own colour scheme but his friends refused to play him because it wasn't an official chapter. Of course the reply was that you could paint marines in any colour scheme. No matter how much anybody even GW explains that you can add to and adapt games to do what you want there's still a majority of players that have to be spoon fed.
That's true but GW don't really support adaptive play or "narrative" play. There's barely any few mentions of kitchen table Warhammer in the rules and their entire business model is built around selling rule books and tat.
This is true, however in the earlier versions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K there were asymmetric scenario's included to give you examples of alternate playstyles. There was also a more overall anarchic atmosphere due to scatter dice and random tables which meant you plans don't go the way you envisage them so you have to adapt on the fly.
@@Splozy If you let that stop you, did you even try? Appearently since I am more of a TTRPG person, the narrative says i must like suckfinder 2 while hating DnD... yet I hate them equally. 😂 Spooooky. Not instantly falling in like a NPC cuz your nan said so.
The best GW games are from the era when they actively encouraged scratch-building and conversions. Mordheim seems more popular than ever, and the old version of Necromunda continues to have a fantastic following through the Community Edition. These games came out when GW was officially supporting hobby creativity through publications like, for example, How To Make Wargames Terrain. Their products lost that "special something" when GW went hyper-corporate.
I got sick and tired of waiting for Primaris Sanguinary Guard to come out, so I built my own 2 years ago. Now they've shown off the new ones and I was like: "i like mine better. They're a bit rough in places, but at least they have wings!"
I agree with everything you said. GW in particular is very good at rewriting history, both in their business model and lore. Once upon a time, GW was about the hobby, they literally teach you how to kitbash and convert your minies and how to build terrains out of cardboard and plastic bottles. Now they have a "no model, no rule" policy, they are making all their minies monopose with the express goal to make them as impossible to kitbash as possible, they sell terrains at an insane price and are trying more and more to make "the official GW terrain" required pieces to play the game. As someone that is there first and foremost for the lore, then the hobby, then the game, GW is making their product less and less appealing to me.
WOTC is following the seasonal DLC that a lot of video game companies are doing these days. I've been playing D&D since 1980, and I've got a decades of content to dray from. I don't need to buy any more of their books; I got all I'll ever need. Likewise with GW; I don't need their games. I might still buy some minis, but I've got 30 years of bits I've stockpiled to convert with. I also have a 3-D printer, and OPR.
They don’t really make new books. That’s what’s amazing. Do we need the same modules for every edition? Why not make new adventures? Wouldn’t they sell better?
@@nunyabidness3075 Basically, they know they cant outdo your average "pathfinder lover" idea wise so they feel safer doing older stuff that has a audience. Also i bet you it a tight ship there and not "hey make a game that uses minis" GW and allows one guy to make the 2 games they are known for.
I have played D&D for almost two decades with only the core books (3.5, Pathfinder, 5e) as my guides and the odd sourcebook, but most is my own imagination at work.
GW and WotC have been "hamburglered". McDonald's was awesome when the McDonald brothers owned it and for the couple decades that followed. But, Corpo logic takes its toll on every brand in the end.
All brands will become zombie brands so the VCs and tech bros can make AIs that were trained by content created by AIs (that is actually a thing the tech bros are into).
I’m 31 years old, wanted to get into Warhammer for years but didn’t have anyone to play with, I finally found a local Warhammer store and bought a starter army, and unfortunately, this has been my experience exactly. I ended up leaving that store and GW behind. It’s not fun if you can’t build your own terrain etc.
Back in Second Edition many of the units/characters and vehicles didn’t have models. But they had data sheets. So kitbashing was a must if you wanted to use these models. Also, all wargear had points separate point values, so you could create your own custom units. I made a units of Eldar striking scorpions with plasma pistol and power fists. And these squad was point accurate because of the wargear list. The hobby was once a kit bashers dream. You could also order individual parts. As each part had a unique number.
I still have a copy of the first White Dwarf magazine I ever got; my mom bought it for me because we went to a nerd shop and she told the guy behind the counter that I was getting into a Lizardmen army. He suggested the WD magazine, it was May 1999 issued 232, the one about the launch of Battlefleet Gothic because it had a huge article on how to play and paint Lizardmen. WD used to be insanely based, there'd be articles showing you how to create cool terrain using toilet paper tubes, and showcased a Chaos army where over half the models were conversions and/or HEAVILY greenstuffed. You hit the nail on the head I think. Contemporary GW doesn't want guys that make their own terrain, kitbash models or think up their own missions to play. They want people who need to be spoon-fed content and need their Painboy to look exactly like the Painboy model on the website. It makes me sad because this game no longer encourages or rewards creativity.
This hits so close to home: the very first thing I did with my very first kit (the older Space Marine Command Squad, when it didn't even have the monopose captain yet) was to put the flamer's barrel on the boltgun to make some kind of special machine gun, it was unreal how natural it felt to me to be wanting to play Frankenstein. Back then marines were so free in what to take as equipment, there was a loadout for everything (which could better excuse proxying) and were so easily bashable and compatible with each other, nowadays instead I sit with decision paralysis on loads and loads of cool minis because yeah, it'd be so awesome to give birth to the leader of my custom chapter and his personal cabal of specialist officers all with their personal choice of weapons, but between fear of messing up the kitbash AND wanting exceedingly fancy/exoteric wargear to justify in game (backpack-mounted storm bolters/autocannons anyone?) I'm stunlocked into inaction...
I hate that, especially when I look at modern Ork sprues compared to my old box from back even in the late 00's. And even then that's basic customization. OPR has this issue for making lists too.
@talldorf6445 Many of the so-called "miniature agnostic" rulesets use GW factions in all but name. While I understand this from a business and rules adoption standpoint, it makes the games overly rigid to the point where you basically have to shoehorn your chosen minis into a GW faction anyway. OPR and Star Breach come to mind. Just give me a bunch of generic troop types and let me build my own list.
@@MrSkullhead1 look up great escape miniature as well as star grave, made some sweet space cowboys kitbashing them together they have the same proportions and the universal stance and assembly options
Dude, 30 seconds into the video and I was like, "Amen, preach the history!" I started playing in the 90s, and just hearing the words "Ral Partha" cheers me up.
Same! I used to go to the Ral Partha factory back in the early 90s here in Cincinnati. Whenever my AD&D group wanted new minis, or we started a new campaign it was "Hey guys lets all go over to the Ral Partha factory this week!" ... we used to buy their minis fresh off the press.
@@marshaledrek71 I grew up in Appalachia and the two hobby stores we had both struggled to get product. So, ordering stuff was difficult and forget browsing through it. Every Wargames West catalog I got ended up beaten to pieces from handling by the time the next one arrived every quarter. It's crazy to remember looking at those products and wondering what the books were like, when we now have the ability to jump onto Wikipedia and get a full breakdown most of the time. Not to mention that the actual product is often only a click away.
Thank you for making this video, this is what I've been trying to tell many younger hobbyist on-line and in meat space. It's actually sad that some don't even know historical gaming exists, or that there are game systems that exist outside the few major companies.
Its up to the Community and the Tournament Organizers to allow the proxy/kit bash. It would be great to go to an event that wasn't a tournament where you could sign up for a table that has a narrative that you think is fun and play that scenario then go to another table where you signed up to play on that totally different scenario. it not all about win rates, some people just want to play the game and having some fun terrain pieces with narrative missions and special rules would be cool, id sign up for 3 totally strange games on a Saturday. Organizing such things would be very hard...
Exactly! My convention that I run has exactly the narrative focused tables you're talking about. Our tournaments take a back seat to the narratives and the narratives grow every year in popularity.
The problem lies in your first sentence. Tournaments. Its a dollie game. Tournaments should be just an excuse to gather together to play dollies. But because people think a tournament equals "Serioz biznizz", that tourneys hold some magical weight over the heads of anyone, ever, about how dollies should be played. I think you quickly realize that taking dollies too seriously is a recipe for the absolute absence of fun. Because people think "Tourneys" are a magical word for anything other than summoning the most offensive neckbeards.
In 3rd Edition 40k there were rules to make your own vehicles. You could give them weapons, armor, points, everything. The rulebook understood that you could easily abuse this system but it relied on the intelligence of the player to refuse to do so and thus respected the player.
@@imperialcitizen4811 The problem is that unfortunately a lot of people don't have the gentleman's game approach to Warhammer 40K anymore. It's all about finding ways to cheese wins with your models
Tabletop games-miniatures, boardgames, or even card games-have this specific advantage over video/computer games: you own the game, and you can change rules, add components, whatever you please. It's your game. With video games, you don't even own your copy of the game-you are really just licensing it. Of course, this can get a bit out of hand. Some boardgames are inadequately tested, and have to have frequent rule changes euphemized as "living rules" to work properly. Sometimes, we are like hobbits, who "liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions."
Came back to the hobby around 2015 after a hiatus since the late '90s. Walking into a 'Warhammer' store and being told that no, I couldn't have a demo game because "I didn't have anything with me to play" was a real eye-opener for me. That, and the staff literally walking away mid-sentence whenever they saw someone enter the shop to give them the whole "what are you buying today then mate?" bit. Good on you for making this video mate, us old fuckers need to stick together and the point you make about the origins of these companies being literally the process of DIY hobbying isn't recognised more widely I fear.
As a GenX gamer, gaming and hobbying since the mid 80s and still going, you're preaching to the choir here. I still develop my own games (a Star Wars skirmisher currently), we've always written our own RPG adventures and campaigns, I'm scratch-building movie model replicas and so on. There's a lot of great stuff to consume - like the amazing 3D-print craze currently - but if you only consume and create nothing yourself, you might as well be dead. Only consuming is equal to just existing in the hobby, not living it.
If you're not kitbashing, homebrewing, creating your own units/missions/scenarios and building stuff from scratch, you're not playing Warhammer or D&D. You're playing a computer game in which you do all the math work that the computer is supposed to do for you 😁
Modern GW games are what I call "Table top video games". Its no longer a war game where people with military experience and knowledge can walk up to a table and identify exactly whats going on.
If you want to play D&D I would buy the 1e/2e AD&D rules or the current OSE rules. The current version is just a money grab. And as far as GW is concerned, Satan is hand-picking their pineapples.
3.0 and 3.5 are a little more beginner friendly, though. And a lot of the manuals are available online (though by less than legitimate means) and predate Hasbro's reign of greed.
3rd edition is a bit crunchy. Stick to OSE or AD&D and enjoy a fun adventure game which isn't bogged down by the dreaded "character optimisation" mini-game
Joseph McCullough makes games that still follow the homebrew is the main way to play attitude. Rangers of Shadow Deep is still my favorite game to play.
This reminded me of a friend of myn that painted his goblin army as blue skins and his son who was a determined "coolade drinker" said you cant do that they have to be green. His dad said "it's fantasy who says they have to be green, they are mountain goblins and it's cold up there😅" that was decades ago but the brainwashing started back then with the "only our figures,paints,glue,tools and brushes can be used in our game.
I find the structured match play 40k rules are pretty good and offer a fairly consistent experience for pick up games with opponents you might not know very well. In my experience the more players get to know each other and have played a few times they start to leave the matched play stuff a bit and delve more into funky missions and homebrew stuff.
I feel like especially the younger crowd feels a pressure of doing it by thr book exactly because they grew up with digital media, especially Games as a Service. And in that always online, often competetive environment, doing things another way either quickly earns disdain and connotations of cheating or being a noob that doesn't know how to efficiently play. And this conditioning seeps into physical games very quickly
Also i would say is, most people generally only see things one or like two ways. Perfect exmaple, my friend WANTS to play DnD with me but refuses to put any effort into telling me wtf he actually wants and cant think more then 2 things. Also most DnD people i see basically couldnt use "I throw a bucket of water and my wizbro shoots lighting at him" combo cuz "it not written down and approved of by some jobber" Hell they say "omg why do DM have to work to make the Campagiiiiin!" 😂
I also add in the HYPER restrictive school system these days. We used to have open lunch where you could pick up a ball and play whatever random sport. Kids today have assigned seating during lunch up to high school and EVERY sport is taken as bloody serious stuff like they were professional athletes. There is so little "fun" and messing around as a kid these days.
It doesn't really help that if you get these kind of communities together there will always be demands for a rules arbiter because there's such little trust that the others will be fair or balanced in their approach. I explicitly remember that GW had to come out and say that Forgeworld rules of all things were legal to use in "normal" 40k games because they were such an unknown to many players and there were concerns about how powerful the units were. That kind of atmosphere makes home brewing or flavorful custom rules impossible because people hear that and think "broken untested and unsanctioned dogshit"
It took me a couple of minutes of watching before I realized what your T-shirt was all about. I just saw it and thought, Thundercats! I loved that cartoon. And then a couple of minutes later I realized.
Actually, I see what you're saying about the shirt. I never once took it like that. I don't know if that was the intention of the shirt or not, but that's pretty depressing if it is. LOL. I would say that is not the point of the shirt, with the exception that she's right in the middle. If she were on the left or the right I would not assume that's the case. I will just keep seeing the shirt I originally did, not sure what their intention was.
I remember the local store sold bitz kits and half the minies were largely freeform, and the actual store would sell you little hoby kits for smelting tin, like the store right, and white dwarf had whole pages in every edittion on how to kitbash and make stuff up on the go, i think i still have a whfb rulebook that actualy suggests people homebrew rules or just 'throw a dice' to decide on them, somewhere in some box theres still that six armed half horse half human skeleton thing glued together from rests of a undead army sprue, it was fun
The last great Space Marine codex was the 5th Edition version. It gave you access to all the major characters and even encouraged you to build you own custom Legion. So I did just that. I build a custom Legion that had all the special characters kitbashed and later added models to represent Blood Angels and Dark Angels army compositions. Some of my friends borrowed my army to take part in tournaments because I basically have anything they might want in that army but yet look interesting on the table top because its a custom Legion and not another paper cut codex army. But I saw the writing on the wall and bowed out of the mainstream GW hobby shortly after 6th Edition was released. Sold all my armies away and only years later picked up a Bloodbowl team and some motorised Genestealer Cult models as a small collection for hobbying purposes. At my peak, I had 4, 40k and WHFB armies respectively. If I have that same amount of money now, I'd rather use that money to pay off my mortgage or go on a nice holiday with my missus.
Kitbashing or scratch building stuff is still alive and well. Especially with 3D printing as great as it is. I’m new to the hobby and I’ve kitbashed my Minotaurs army and terrain. You just need to learn how to use milliput or green stuff. There’s a learning curve in the beginning but you should pick it up as a skill. My pro tip to other newbies is to get some nail art brushes and go to a pet shop for weird terrain. Budgie sand or reptile bark go really far. It’s fun!
I am nearly 40 though so I spent my youth playing meccano and model train kits/ terrain. Maybe it’s a generational thing about following the rules and painting like the box art that gen z do?
I paint my armies as whatever army I've homebrewed, most of them are from worlds that dont exist, once had a guy ask why my army wasnt painted "the right color" i was taken aback by this
Holy hell, great to see you again friend! Good to see you speaking more truth again and I absolutely agree! I though at beginning of video "I hope he brings up when white dwarves used to teach terrain building and creating your own units" and you did which was great! You're definitely right about there being two types of players, the ones who feel they have to do it by the books are the worst or at best just really missing out on the great other and TRUE ways of playing out there! I'm sick of seeing all the new players thinking every single match in 40k having to be the same tournament layout with 5 pieces of terrain, as you pointed out WHERES THE CREATIVITY AND IMAGINATION??? It's great you do that with the objectives and really threw those people off hahaha. Putting asymetrical layouts, twists, all that stuff really feels more in the setting. this estyle itc tournament bullshit is not real warhammer, not real wargaming! and it sucks it's infested everything to be the standard. But there are still players out there holding the flame lit and keeping with the better ways, so there is hope!
Thanks for watching! It sounds like we're in the same boat with our views on this. I have a stack of old White Dwarf magazines from around 2000 that are just FULL of do-it-yourself stuff. That was my favorite part of the magazine! And I've been here the whole time, making videos roughly every week or so. Glad you found me again! Praise the Algo Rythmn Gods!
@@LetsTalkTabletop Absolutely! I'm gonna get your game system too and try it out with my group. I'm running a club for these indy wargames down here in south florida and we're starting to grow!
40k and WHFB used to require 3 players to a match. The third one was the referee who would make calls on actions and scenarios that were not covered in the rule books. The main rulebook had a section dedicated to these battle masters, giving advice on how to adjudicate and improvise rules.
So I am a dude on the rim of this community, playing DND and building minis for fun, but although I have armies of minis, I never got into the Warhammer community because half of them are 3d printed and I don't want to limityself to one company. Also, I don't have the time to learn a new addition every other year. I'd love to play 2-3 wargames a year. But there just does not seem to be a niche for this kind of scope.
In about 2 months I will be releasing a mass battle game called Mass brutality, you can use any miniatures from any genre and any game that you want. I am completely phobic when it comes to power creep or needlessly putting out new editions, so you should be safe. Brutality Skirmish Wargame came out in 2020 and it's still on its first edition.
I'm not a war or card gamer but i have been playing ttrpgs most of my life. And nearly none of it was dnd. I have created few homebrew and honestly homebrew is very fun to make and really helps you understand the difficulty of making a game. Personally might make another homebrew soon. So who knows. But yeah i recommend every rpg player try games other then dnd. Cyberpunk, world of darkness, powered by the apocalypse, forged in the dark, old school revival (both retroclones and more innovative stuff) European rpgs, Japanese rpgs, ect ect. It'll really break the mental boxes in the heads of people who only play dnd 5e.
Respect!!! I consider myself so lucky to get into TTGs in the late 90s when the DIY elements were still healthy! Still happily playing 3.5e homebrews on homemade terrain.
I didn't learn much but I like how you picked the good exemples to illustrate all those anti-consumer changes over time. I also regret how so many young players can't think outside of the "competitive play" box.
I understand what you mean and I think your video has a point. I'm one of those dinosaurs that started both D&D and Warhammer in the 80's so I can relate to lot of things you mention. But you're missing one element that in my opinion count. At my time there was scarcity. Even if I was lucky enough to have a fully fledged hobby store in my small Italian city and considering everything was only in English at the time there was a scarcity of products that forced us to come up with kitbashing, scenery building and rules writing. Nowadays this scarcity doesn't exists anymore, not only there are a lot of products but it's easier than ever to get them. I'm almost 50, do I really want to buy stirfoam and tools and flock and glue and make my own hills or is it better to just buy them ready? It depends on what are your objectives in the hobby. You want to build terrain? Please go and buy the stuff you need to make terrain, but if it's not your cup of tea it's good to know we have alternatives. Are the big corporation blocking you from doing that? Not really, they are just not showing you anymore how to make terrain because they have the ready product. Are they really obliged to give you the alternative to their own product? It doesn't sounds realistic yeah? I think the internet made possible the creation of communities that are not dependant on big corporations so we just need to do our part to show\inform\tell about the alternatives. And there are some pretty good communities out there. Same for D&D. I love that I can play online and with digital products because now my group lives in three different countries and having tools like fantasy grounds helps me greatly to get a game in. So in short I partially agree, I think the focus, instead of been on blaming corporations because they do what they are supposed to do, should be on promoting the ways of the hobby that people might not know because they are only exposed to the contents of the corporations that run their games. Whoa, that was long... 😅
Technically GW is now actually blocking you from making your own terrain. Since terrain now gets specific rules in some systems they HAVE to be the correct dimensions. Ergo, they have to be "official" models. Note I don't believe in ANY of this and no longer play these systems.
I think this is a good point but let me counter with "as a child, lack of money made everything scarce for me." And that's my main concern I have with over-monetizing; newer players and kids aren't able to really get into the game because of the cost. It could hurt the community long term.
Great Video, we think you did a good job (trying to be constructive it was a little slow paced I literally watched on times two speed and you were still perfectly understandable). We thought you did really well, another thing you should have mentioned which I think would have solidified your point would be mentioning how they call it the Warhammer hobby rather than the Wargaming hobby. Great video as we said we shouted you out on our community tab have a good one - Cal and Sunny
Hey, thanks! I guess I'm just a slow talker, haha. Thank you for boosting the signal, friends! Yeah that's a good point, they are even double speaking the name of the hobby now.
My babysitter's son, who was over 18 and in the army in the 90s, introduced me to the game when everything was red. We played Rogue Trader for Years. Creative is gone but they also stole ideas too. I played again later, but so much of the game had changed. The fun has been taken out of the game. Missions are so different now. I miss making armies out of paper, and so many other things that made it unique back then.
You are absolutely correct and this is what I've been telling people. Tbh, i haven't bought a GW model in years. I stopped playing after 8th. But i remember the days before GW became normie stuff where you could kitbash and create your own missions and they were fun. I think they've tried to be more competitive and it just doesn't work for them. We are now playing One Page Rules and it feels like the days of old. We are making our missions as well as 3D printing and kit bashing our stuff.
I bought the original Necromunda Codex as an Xmas present to myself after saving up for months. My mates and I couldn't afford the models or paints, so we just made paper tokens and terrain. Much fun was had over the years.
classic white dwarf straight up gave sculpting and modeling guides on making carapace armoured ogryn and cadians, there also was tutorials on using greenstuff and a pencil to replicate purity seals for use on miniatures in white dwarf atleast once! the modern white dwarf feels so devoid of creativity to the point that i can't justify the hiked price for it most of the time. i think though we can pinpoint when things shifted for gw from creativity friendliness to cold corporatism and it was both the chapter house lawsuit where it cost them a lot to do and while in name they won it they also lost parts of it too which was why suddenly a whole lot of options that only really existed in the rules suddenly started vanishing from the game in late 6th ed (carapace armoured imperial guard veterans and a 3rd of the characters) the other was the company nearly going under in 2014 which has been talked about a bit over on the painting phase channel by former gw and whtv staff
My friends and I have house ruled crusade games so much that it's basically DnD with sci-fi armies. We even take turns DMing coop missions and make stories on why theese two armies are working together.
I got into 40K between 2nd and 3rd editions, and some of my first purchases (before I even had a rulebook) was that 6-man 'warriors of the imperium' space marine box, and I bought it specifically because of the pose-ability and customization options! I bought several of the 3rd edition tactical squads and gorka-morka ork boxes for the same reasons. I haven't been collecting for the past decade-plus, but if the current models are actually like you described....I doubt I would have ever collected if that had been my first encounter with the hobby.
GW want 40k to be a lifestyle brand/E Sport live service that you constantly pay for to engage. The soul of the company went a long time ago. But it's YOUR hobby. You can do whatever you like with your hobby and you SHOULD.
Yeah and they most likely going to ruin the lore trying to capture the imaginary modern audience and tone down everything that makes them great. Most likely fail as a result of trying to pander to the modern audience crap
The overpriced "Gallowdark" Kill Team sets and the rule mess of 40k 9th really soured me on GW. I haven't touched any of those games in two years and haven't missed it. Still enjoying Stargrave though, and found that The One Ring, Mothership, and Pathfinder are excellent replacements for D&D since the whole OGL issue.
That's why I don't feel bad about 3D printing my own stuff. I can literally create EXACTLY the model I want in Blender, pose it and print and get exactly what I want and I'm not gonna have to spend $5 for a single infantry model. I never thought of pursuing 3D printing until I spend over $1,000 creating a Guard army with over 300 Whiteshields, which GW then made useless by eliminating Conscripts. After that, I just saw how GW deliberately makes each Army with new sculpts OP with the release of the new kits and then "corrects their mistake" and "rebalances" them to bring them in line with everything else as soon as the models are no longer selling well. The entire thing is a scam. I enjoy painting and playing, but GW will never get more than the minimum amount of $$$ from me.
While I’ve had this view of RPGs for a long time, I had not thought about GW & other miniatures companies (Wizkids’ heroclix) doing the same thing. Definitely going to think about this information the next time I’m deciding what minis to buy.
I thought TSR was an evil corp in the 80s, but it's nothing compared to GW. Nothing will please me than to see it fall.. Conversions are more fun than painting, so I too share your frustration with the latest minis.
As a massive kitbasher I find it annoying but not impossible to get what I want without a bit of work. But it saves money and I'd say looks better than some of GWs offerings.
Regarding weird cuts on sprues: There are several reasons: Hiding seams and mould lines and dynamic poses. Then there is a secret reason: Usually the special and unique models are baught once, by making the models very dynamic and cutting sprues very weirdly, they make it a nightmare or impossible to recast.
@@GarredHATES fan animation still exist. This is something that people keep perpetuating because TTS used the controversy as an excuse to stop. There are still fan animations being made to this day.
Do you also believe musicians should allow anyone to use their music for free ? What about authors ? Profiting from other people's IP is plagiarism- whether you're a fan or not
@@GarredHATES This is so obviously and demonstrabl. wrong, I can't believe you even bothered to make this point. What about any animation or fan-podcast on UA-cam? Do you think they make no money?
@GarredHATES fan projects that become popular youtube videos actually do make money . Are you telling me if you made a Marvel movie and released it on UA-cam you'd be surprised Disney sued you ?
I remember back in the day I could assemble my necron warriors in whatever order. Buying the combat patrol box for the necrons showed me how bad of an idea it was to cut everything first, as each arm+weapon combination would only fit a specific torso, but only if you also match the correct left and right arm together. Otherwise the shoulders would be impossibly far apart, in a weird angle, or too narrow. I had to pretty much cut away a bunch of connecting plastic in the shoulders to glue them still together as it was impossible to randomly match 10 left arms, right arms and torso pieces in the correct order by pure chance.
I have struggled against wargamer philistines my entire life, and in no place have I struggled harder than space marines. Space marines, to me, are space marines. The color of their armor isnt where their special rules are derived from, and yet, if you dont have yellow paint then you cannot play "spaz marins" using the imperial fist rules, for example. At least according to folks who really should be playing napoleons since they are so concerned about the color of my pants. It's this brand of thoughtless braying about how the game SHOULD be played, missing the entire point about gathering together with your buds to push dollies around a table into various other dollie houses to see who "wins" a game of dollies, that has caused me to actually look away from pick up games ever anymore. Life is just too short for such nonsense.
If they the people you mention truly wish to play by the rules to the word, they should know that paint doesn't matter, only wargear does. I, personally, try to play by the rules just because we are a somewhat competitive community where imbalance could affect our enjoyment. And I can tell you that paint doesn't matter At all. It doesn't matter in competitive games. It doesn't matter in tournaments. And it shouldn't matter in casual games. My Death Guard is red and gold. And, forgive me if I sound conceited, but my death guard is better painted that what many people can pull off. If anyone tells me I cannot play them as Death Guard, they can f off.
I use the marneus Calgar model (suitably kitbashed) as the chapter master for my blood angels successor chapter. The number of people who have, even in casual settings, told me I can't do that, is extremely disappointing.
@@theendofmyropemydude to me, that feels like the same irrational disconnect where someone is asking you "What is your fave animal", and after you answer, you are told that you are wrong. Like, how is an entirely subjective opinion "wrong/incorrect"? You saw marneus, imagined he would look cool as your leader, and wanted to share that inspiration with others. Its valid that they may not like it, but to outright say you cant play with your dollies the way you want to play with them, is even more ridiculous than calling dollies "dollies".
@@Colorcrayons I even went through the hassle of removing all the Ultramarines iconography and replacing it with my own. But no, since he has the keyword Ultramarines in the codex it's just impossible for people to imagine him being used in a fluffy blood angels successor list. That's what gets me the most, this isn't even tournament cheese, it's just liking a model and not liking Ultramarines.
@@LetsTalkTabletop haha, i really felt the lack of a channel that talks our hobby not from an “overexcited fun” point of view, but from a point of a critical thinking person, who remembers that our hobby is in hands of people who don’t care about it at all.
Sooo true. This was the case even 15 years ago. Every time GW would release a new edition of their game, the grand majority of the community collectively accepted that the old one is dead and cannot be played anymore. I have 3 fat edition books in my shelf. Nothing is stopping me from playing 7th edition 40k except the idea of „this is old. It’s not the new thing. So it’s actually pointless to play it.“ We are so brainwashed … Luckily I am an orc player and kitbashing is kind of their thing
Makes me want to start a miniatures company that instead of selling minis sells moulds. Bring back the old tin soldiers model. So instead of buying an army, you buy a set of moulds and some tin and fabricate your own army for your games. WIll it be massively capitalistic and lucrative? Probably not. Will it be consumer friendly? Yeah, I'd think so, that's the point.
I would like to point out something I've found out about 1st It's the most primordial form of 40k, it certainyl isn't balanced but not because it's bad It's not balanced because it's infinitely customizable Meaning you have to agree on your list with your opponents beforehand to play fair In my not humble but INFORMED opinion of playing this game since 4th edition, 1st is superior, full stop, it's TRUE 40k
GW’s minis are also cut that way to counter illegal recasting and the scourge of 3D scanning and printing. The Last Great Hurrah of GW’s DIY era was the 2003 General’s Compendium from Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th edition. This book was produced by the US studio… which believe it or not, used to exist. It is chock-full of DIY ideas for creating a WIDE variety of terrain, building your own boats of various sizes, building a 3D campaign map without using their plastic “Mighty Empires” hexes (oop at the time), converting miniatures and running an elaborate map campaign. The only thing wrong with that book is the binding, which uses the stiffest glue I’ve ever seen in a book. It’s almost impossible to read the book without permanently damaging it (mine is still together but I am VERY careful with it.) This book also came out around the time of “Warhammer Skirmish” which was a great little system that also encouraged DIY activities (also produced by the US studio, iirc). I think this book was noticed by the execs at GW and it was the light bulb going off over their heads. “Why are we giving away all this free skill-building instruction when we could just sell them every little thing possible?” It’s been a downhill slide into GW forcefully spoon-feeding everything to their customers since. 😢 Re: D&D I remember seeing a short video clip of Gary Gygax saying, “Don’t let anyone know, but all you need are the basic rules and an imagination.” TSR originally never intended to produce adventure modules. In fact, in one of the original edition books, the foreword by Gygax says something like, “and with this book, Dungeons and Dragons is complete. Enjoy!” There was a brief moment in time where he actually thought the Game Was Done. The first D&D module is a licensed vampire adventure by some third party. It’s SUPER-rare now, as you can imagine. Once Gygax saw how much money the game was bringing in, he realized they needed to keep producing new products to take advantage of the opportunity. That’s now gone into hyperdrive with WotC at the wheel.
Well said! Glad it isn’t just me. The new plastic kits give the downsides of plastic (having to assemble) with none of the upsides (kit bash and posing)
My entry into miniatures was xwing, which played the same way GW and WotC does things with constant rebalance/tweaks. Got into 40k. Love the models and the IP. Getting fed up with the rule changes just for the rule changes, but not sure how to build up a new group to play a set rule set that’s more static
The GW miniatures requiring you to assemble from 1000 pieces make GW more money. More pieces means more difficult for recasting, and blister-pack characters require very little designing or production cost but sells at a premium, especially when the new character have better rules than they normally would. I don't really mind. With one-page rule in hand, a little home-brew missions, and 3d-printers go brrrrrrrrrrrr, I'm enjoying the hobby like never before.
Chinese can recast anything they want with reasonable quality at least and more than often it is as good as the real thing. GW did this to stop kitbashing period. They want to set their miniatures appart from the competition with details overload.
@@vlad78th Exactly. Recasters even has better service whenever you need a part replaced or something. Dealing with forge world on the other hand, your experiences may vary.
I like having the rules and supplements as a base, but there is no way I would stop at just that especially since there is no reason not to create our own stuff. Had a former gaming group that was hyper competitive and they basically just killed the enjoyment in order to just win at all costs. Glad I am playing on my own and never believed in the term "sadhammer" for solo games as at the end of the day these models are no different (except for the building, painting or custom creations) than buying a bag of army men (still gotta get a copy of combat storm). Never regretted my stuff just that as of now I have no room to play at the moment as I had to put stuff into storage since the move U_U
I always was aware of this aspect of D&D since I learned from an Uncle who's as old as Gygax but it's honestly only older UA-camrs who turned me onto the homebrew history of wargaming. I hope we see the demise of publicly traded game companies and IP in my lifetime. Great vid!
Great video. You make awesome points. I really like how you pointed out the lack of imagination and originality by the players. Just methodically following GW strongly step blindly.
Some input from the Battletech side. Yeah,we're still alive. CGL can't kill us no matter how hard they try to let the crazies inject politics of any type into the game. Mercenaries was my first,and last kickstarter. It had my first mech in a nicely done mini in it(a Scorpion) and that's about it. Now I'm gonna buy from 2nd hand or people who do printing to get any extra minis I want. So,to tie into the above. My old man and I spent the day together not too long ago to search for some table top stores. We found a few,and one of them,had a surprising amount of 40K stuff in it(with a decent selection of DnD and Battletech). I was *quite* interested in getting my hands on an Imperial Knight model set(two knights,and the box looked very nicely done). 90 dollars. 90 dollars for two models is WILD to me. That's almost the price of a 3D printed Dropship in Battletech if you buy privately. Im an old grognard. I remember when GW used to promote kitbashing,and showed you how to make your own models in their magazine. I remember when they told us that going from metal to plastic minis would be better,we'd get more,high quality minis. It's wild how that since then,the minis got WAY more expensive. Sorry GW,you priced me out and pushed me to Battletech. With Battletech joining the crazies slowly,it looks like I'm just gonna have to sail the seas and gather my physical media. Battletech will survive without CGL. 40K will survive without GW. But I do not think either realize they can't survive without us supporting them.
When I started, Citadel Miniatures used to sell individual components for metal models, for the purpose of kit bashing. So you didn't have to buy the whole model just to get a certain arm or head, you just ordered the bits you wanted. It was great.
Not a Warhammer player, but I definitely share y'alls frustration over prices and excessive editions. Wargaming as a whole feels like it's attempting to become excessively expensive. Also really cool Star Trek poster!
I've pretty close to stopped buying GW, and buy a lot more North Star minis for Frostgrave, Stargrave, and Oathmark, and Wargames Atlantic guys, for that older kitbash friendly aesthetic and not being price gouged. That and 3D printing. But I'm one of those old guys who remembers wargaming before GW and D&D as fugly but charming little brown booklets.
I've noticed the Venn Diagram of "by the book" and "competitive" players is a circle. And none of them are motivated by the spirit of the game or the hobby aspect. It's all about their ability to prove their superiority in a game of toy soldiers. I've had 2 players like that call me a gatekeeper because I don't like using the objective deck and "don't play the correct way, and that scares away new players".
It's a shame that I haven't been able to run into those innovative players who are creating their own missions. Instead, I'm stuck playing with the boring and unoriginal players who only follow the rules and stick to the store-bought missions. I miss the days when I used to play with imaginative and creative players who weren't afraid to think outside the box and come up with their own missions. These players were true innovators, constantly pushing the boundaries and bringing something new and exciting to the game. It's disappointing that nowadays, it seems like everyone just wants to play it safe and stick to what's already been done. I long for the days when I could join a game and be taken on a unique adventure, filled with unexpected twists and turns, all thanks to the brilliant minds of those old players with imagination. I hope that one day, I'll be able to run into those innovators again and experience the thrill of playing with people who are not afraid to challenge the status quo and create their own path. Until then, I'll keep searching for those rare gems in the gaming world, hoping to once again be part of a truly innovative and imaginative gaming experience.
I started with Games Workshop way back with 1st edition, Rouge Trader as it was known. I phased out of the hobby some years ago now when the prices got just too high and the editions kept coming out too quickly and it became so obvious that they didn't care about the hobby or the players, all they cared about was making money. I won't go into all that though, I just want to throw up 2 examples of how it used to be. Back in the Rouge Trader rulebook there were instructions on how to build an Imperial grav-tank using I think it was a deodorant bottle as the main body of the vehicle. Or maybe it was a shampoo bottle? I really can't remember, it's been like 30 years! But yes, in the main rule book it showed you how to make a vehicle out of empty bottles. Second, the whirlwind. This I think was 2nd Edition, you bought yourself a Rhino, and using a large square monster base and some card and some bits from the Rhino sprue you made yourself your own missile launcher to go on the top of the Rhino to turn it into a Whirlwind. The instructions to do this was either in the White Dwarf or a rulebook or maybe in with the Rhino itself, I really can't remember, but it was official advice from GW on how to build your own Whirlwind launcher to go on top your tank. I remember building two Whirlwind launchers and putting one on top of a Land Raider and the other on top of a Dreadnaught!
If they haven't gotten it right after TEN editions, maybe they aren't even trying to.
100% they are not trying. Moneeeeeeeeeeeeeey!!!
Note that Lord of the Rings / Middle Earth Strategy Battle went for 25 years without a new edition - and the new "edition" is just a small clean up pass and tweaking of some rules nobody was using.
They CAN design game systems as well as anyone. The do have talented designers, or at least talented designers rotate through the company regularly.
Management wants 40k and Age of Sigmar replaced every 3 years.
new editions are more to keep tournament play fresh & create FOMO to sell product
That's 100% the way they should be doing it. Actually improving the game with each addition. Not changing it for changing sake
Yo Andy Chambers recently said they should have ditched Ugoigo.... in 3rd! My whole life is a lie because gw is a bunch of hacks. They are stinking up the joint
I stopped a WD sub even though it is a write off because you cannot see what is happeining in the bat reps. Dark models on dark boards.... well done gents!
"Don't ask questions! Just consume product, then immediately get excited for next product!" - This has been so true, especially for Magic The Gathering lately.
yeah magic is so dead a game can be
@@necasperaterent29386 magic hasn't been fun for a while. I loved commander when it wasn't the central game mode wizards make products for. Now it feels like standard with how much you have to keep up with.
The universe beyond crap is just them whoring out the game to corpos to grab new players
how about Logitech or w/e the pc mouse companyis called, wants you to subscribe for a mouse...
For about 2 years I worked for the GeeDub in a retail store.... this was by far the most exhausting aspect of it, and that was 6 years ago now, and from what I've seen, that has not slowed down one bit.
These companies intentionally, through FAQs, community interaction and whatnot constantly tweak the game in such a way that they try to keep people buying more and more models, cards, rules books, etc.
Now I will say, as a home gamer, a parent, and working stiff, things like the wizards campaign books are kinda nice. I can sit down and DM a game without a huge commitment on my part. Obviously in other situations, hell yeah we are abandoning books and doing some proper RP stuff. But, I'm also not chasing whatever "meta" thing is going on now
I worked in a RPG store in Liverpool in 1989 and GW/citadel products were the best in the industry. They had great licenses and IPs like Judge Dredd, Middle Earth, Fighting Fantasy, Talisman, Chainsaw Warrior and Battlecars..... Then, almost overnight, they opened a store in every town, dropped support for every single one of their boardgames, RPGs and miniature lines that weren't Warhammer, released a shitload of warhammer and 40k stuff that just wasnt for anybody playing on a budget. For UK gamers who werent into massive tabletop wargames it was a huge loss and felt like a betrayal.
Wow. I'm ve never heard that take before but it makes sense.
@@LetsTalkTabletop it was after Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone left to focus on their own projects. While they were in charge, Games Workshop, its few stores, Citadel and White dwarf were the most exciting and innovative company out there and their products were always top notch, fun, and fully customisable... that is, they published instructions in white dwarf for making scenery and vehicles out of everyday objects like empty deodorant sticks and plastic cutlery, they encouraged you to use their miniatures for your own world rpgs, they would promote other companies stuff in WD. They made kick ass board games with expansion sets, they employed some of best 2000AD artists and they distributed all their product to independent rpg sellers like my store all around the UK. They didnt just support their own stuff, they supported and helped grow the entire hobby in the UK. ..Then Warhammer tabletop happened.
Kitbashing and scratchbuilding are one of the foundational parts of not only the miniature wargame hobby, but modeling as a whole. When the industry was still in its infancy, back in the 50s (and up to the 80s really, depending on your location), most model shops offered plans to build your own models from wood and cardboard, rather than selling you full kits. These were relatively rare, and even rarer in plastic.
Ever since I've started with 40k back in the 4th edition, I've been an avid Ork collector, precisely because by their very nature they are a fountain of unbridled creativity. Back then my poor student self couldn't afford expensive models, so I bought two boxes of basic boyz, and got kitbashing. I've always been building my own vehicles, from looted IG tanks made out of cardboard and broken pens to massive artillery pieces with broom handles for barrels.
There is a whole movement/subcommunity called Poorhammer, that plays this way, with cardboard standies for miniatures and boxes for terrain.
Fun fact, GW also used to sell bitz in their store if you asked them. They don't do that anymore as well.
Oh yeah! Before my time but I remember hearing about that!
Yea they sold the left over bits from the showcase models they put in the store. Depending on the store there could be a lot. The store I went to in the past also showcased a lot of Customized and Kitbashed Armys now that I think of it.
The only thing they showcase nowadays, are boxes content and the miniture of the month.
It wasn’t just odd bits in store you could buy, but when I started playing they had a catalogue so if you wanted a random right arm of an ogre, or a dreadnaught left shin, or pretty much anything then it could all be ordered separately and delivered to the store in a couple of days.
When they moved more of the range into plastics, bits probably became less and less viable for them as splitting sprues is a manual task just adding cost to that part that may or may not be recouped.
@@GoldenDragoon you are right. What you mean was Mailorder this was pretty common back then. I remember Lego did that as well and then they stopped for basically the same reason. Cost reduction.
@@GoldenDragoon It was more that the molds would force them to cast up 6 bodies, 6 heads and 12 arms... because someone had ordered a single head. Even worse if they'd ordered a dozen of that head. I do miss the mail-order back catalogue though - there were some real (often uncatalogued) gems that you could get, right up until they discontinued it. One of my last purchases from them was a bundle of Terminator prototypes, an Ambul and 10 RT era jump packs, and I think that was some time between 2000 and 2002.
One Page Rules is gaining steam, they're like "hey just use what ever minis you want and have fun."
I just picked this up with my kid. Paper minis, homemade terrain, and we are having a blast.
Honestly, it's mostly due to the current player's obsession with "competitive" gaming.
Companies don't even really need to hide these things. A large part of current players simply isn't interested in it to begin with.
The "by the book" players have always been there. Gaming of all sorts just attracts a certain kind of person. I remember when WD had a readers letters page back in the 80's and some kid was wanting clarification on whether his space marines were game legal because he'd come up with his own colour scheme but his friends refused to play him because it wasn't an official chapter. Of course the reply was that you could paint marines in any colour scheme. No matter how much anybody even GW explains that you can add to and adapt games to do what you want there's still a majority of players that have to be spoon fed.
That's true but GW don't really support adaptive play or "narrative" play.
There's barely any few mentions of kitchen table Warhammer in the rules and their entire business model is built around selling rule books and tat.
@@Splozybut then there isnt a way for them to stop you. Only thing that can stop you is you and the bois.
This is true, however in the earlier versions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K there were asymmetric scenario's included to give you examples of alternate playstyles. There was also a more overall anarchic atmosphere due to scatter dice and random tables which meant you plans don't go the way you envisage them so you have to adapt on the fly.
@@Subject_Keter There is, culture.
@@Splozy If you let that stop you, did you even try?
Appearently since I am more of a TTRPG person, the narrative says i must like suckfinder 2 while hating DnD... yet I hate them equally. 😂
Spooooky. Not instantly falling in like a NPC cuz your nan said so.
That BlackRock owns them.
The best GW games are from the era when they actively encouraged scratch-building and conversions. Mordheim seems more popular than ever, and the old version of Necromunda continues to have a fantastic following through the Community Edition. These games came out when GW was officially supporting hobby creativity through publications like, for example, How To Make Wargames Terrain. Their products lost that "special something" when GW went hyper-corporate.
Common story and pattern for gaming companies.
Like 4 people play Mordheim dude
@@DefaultProphet In Cincinnati I know of 8.
@@marshaledrek71 Did you really think that was a substantial amount? Lol
What's the Necromunda community edition?
I got sick and tired of waiting for Primaris Sanguinary Guard to come out, so I built my own 2 years ago. Now they've shown off the new ones and I was like: "i like mine better. They're a bit rough in places, but at least they have wings!"
The new Blood Angels are disappointingly bland
I agree with everything you said.
GW in particular is very good at rewriting history, both in their business model and lore.
Once upon a time, GW was about the hobby, they literally teach you how to kitbash and convert your minies and how to build terrains out of cardboard and plastic bottles.
Now they have a "no model, no rule" policy, they are making all their minies monopose with the express goal to make them as impossible to kitbash as possible, they sell terrains at an insane price and are trying more and more to make "the official GW terrain" required pieces to play the game.
As someone that is there first and foremost for the lore, then the hobby, then the game, GW is making their product less and less appealing to me.
Yep 100% agree i remember the first issues of White Dwarf it was all about the hobby,those days have gone but not forgotten !
Pretty soon we are gonna need a subscription for imagination I love hearing the old school older guys talk about gaming back in the day
😄😄😄. Too true.
WOTC is following the seasonal DLC that a lot of video game companies are doing these days. I've been playing D&D since 1980, and I've got a decades of content to dray from. I don't need to buy any more of their books; I got all I'll ever need. Likewise with GW; I don't need their games. I might still buy some minis, but I've got 30 years of bits I've stockpiled to convert with. I also have a 3-D printer, and OPR.
These companies could make things that help us but instead they are on a reboot / sequel model just like hollywood movies
They don’t really make new books. That’s what’s amazing. Do we need the same modules for every edition? Why not make new adventures? Wouldn’t they sell better?
Preach the good word of OPR, brother!
@@nunyabidness3075 Basically, they know they cant outdo your average "pathfinder lover" idea wise so they feel safer doing older stuff that has a audience.
Also i bet you it a tight ship there and not "hey make a game that uses minis" GW and allows one guy to make the 2 games they are known for.
I have played D&D for almost two decades with only the core books (3.5, Pathfinder, 5e) as my guides and the odd sourcebook, but most is my own imagination at work.
GW and WotC have been "hamburglered". McDonald's was awesome when the McDonald brothers owned it and for the couple decades that followed. But, Corpo logic takes its toll on every brand in the end.
All brands will become zombie brands so the VCs and tech bros can make AIs that were trained by content created by AIs (that is actually a thing the tech bros are into).
@@TogashiShinkaze Fuck AI.
GW doesn't want you to know this but, the missions are free. I have 487 missions in my backyard right now. The corpo fears the indoor mission farmer.
😄😄😄
I’m 31 years old, wanted to get into Warhammer for years but didn’t have anyone to play with, I finally found a local Warhammer store and bought a starter army, and unfortunately, this has been my experience exactly. I ended up leaving that store and GW behind. It’s not fun if you can’t build your own terrain etc.
Back in Second Edition many of the units/characters and vehicles didn’t have models. But they had data sheets. So kitbashing was a must if you wanted to use these models.
Also, all wargear had points separate point values, so you could create your own custom units.
I made a units of Eldar striking scorpions with plasma pistol and power fists. And these squad was point accurate because of the wargear list.
The hobby was once a kit bashers dream.
You could also order individual parts. As each part had a unique number.
I still have a copy of the first White Dwarf magazine I ever got; my mom bought it for me because we went to a nerd shop and she told the guy behind the counter that I was getting into a Lizardmen army. He suggested the WD magazine, it was May 1999 issued 232, the one about the launch of Battlefleet Gothic because it had a huge article on how to play and paint Lizardmen. WD used to be insanely based, there'd be articles showing you how to create cool terrain using toilet paper tubes, and showcased a Chaos army where over half the models were conversions and/or HEAVILY greenstuffed.
You hit the nail on the head I think. Contemporary GW doesn't want guys that make their own terrain, kitbash models or think up their own missions to play. They want people who need to be spoon-fed content and need their Painboy to look exactly like the Painboy model on the website. It makes me sad because this game no longer encourages or rewards creativity.
There is always such a charm in handmade things, especially if it was made for free out of trash. I can't explain it, but it's the truth.
This hits so close to home: the very first thing I did with my very first kit (the older Space Marine Command Squad, when it didn't even have the monopose captain yet) was to put the flamer's barrel on the boltgun to make some kind of special machine gun, it was unreal how natural it felt to me to be wanting to play Frankenstein. Back then marines were so free in what to take as equipment, there was a loadout for everything (which could better excuse proxying) and were so easily bashable and compatible with each other, nowadays instead I sit with decision paralysis on loads and loads of cool minis because yeah, it'd be so awesome to give birth to the leader of my custom chapter and his personal cabal of specialist officers all with their personal choice of weapons, but between fear of messing up the kitbash AND wanting exceedingly fancy/exoteric wargear to justify in game (backpack-mounted storm bolters/autocannons anyone?) I'm stunlocked into inaction...
GW's monopose sprues are basically DRM for miniatures.
That's a great comparison.
I hate that, especially when I look at modern Ork sprues compared to my old box from back even in the late 00's. And even then that's basic customization.
OPR has this issue for making lists too.
@talldorf6445 Many of the so-called "miniature agnostic" rulesets use GW factions in all but name. While I understand this from a business and rules adoption standpoint, it makes the games overly rigid to the point where you basically have to shoehorn your chosen minis into a GW faction anyway. OPR and Star Breach come to mind.
Just give me a bunch of generic troop types and let me build my own list.
@@MrSkullhead1 look up great escape miniature as well as star grave, made some sweet space cowboys kitbashing them together they have the same proportions and the universal stance and assembly options
@@MrSkullhead1but OPRs army builder changes so much about the game. You can build an army from scratch of you want.
Dude, 30 seconds into the video and I was like, "Amen, preach the history!" I started playing in the 90s, and just hearing the words "Ral Partha" cheers me up.
Same! I used to go to the Ral Partha factory back in the early 90s here in Cincinnati. Whenever my AD&D group wanted new minis, or we started a new campaign it was "Hey guys lets all go over to the Ral Partha factory this week!" ... we used to buy their minis fresh off the press.
@@marshaledrek71 I grew up in Appalachia and the two hobby stores we had both struggled to get product. So, ordering stuff was difficult and forget browsing through it. Every Wargames West catalog I got ended up beaten to pieces from handling by the time the next one arrived every quarter.
It's crazy to remember looking at those products and wondering what the books were like, when we now have the ability to jump onto Wikipedia and get a full breakdown most of the time. Not to mention that the actual product is often only a click away.
Thank you for making this video, this is what I've been trying to tell many younger hobbyist on-line and in meat space. It's actually sad that some don't even know historical gaming exists, or that there are game systems that exist outside the few major companies.
Its up to the Community and the Tournament Organizers to allow the proxy/kit bash. It would be great to go to an event that wasn't a tournament where you could sign up for a table that has a narrative that you think is fun and play that scenario then go to another table where you signed up to play on that totally different scenario. it not all about win rates, some people just want to play the game and having some fun terrain pieces with narrative missions and special rules would be cool, id sign up for 3 totally strange games on a Saturday. Organizing such things would be very hard...
Exactly! My convention that I run has exactly the narrative focused tables you're talking about. Our tournaments take a back seat to the narratives and the narratives grow every year in popularity.
The problem lies in your first sentence. Tournaments. Its a dollie game. Tournaments should be just an excuse to gather together to play dollies. But because people think a tournament equals "Serioz biznizz", that tourneys hold some magical weight over the heads of anyone, ever, about how dollies should be played.
I think you quickly realize that taking dollies too seriously is a recipe for the absolute absence of fun. Because people think "Tourneys" are a magical word for anything other than summoning the most offensive neckbeards.
@@Colorcrayonscrazy knowing that but also knowing the people who play in tournaments are such a low percentage of the people involved in the hobby.
In 3rd Edition 40k there were rules to make your own vehicles. You could give them weapons, armor, points, everything. The rulebook understood that you could easily abuse this system but it relied on the intelligence of the player to refuse to do so and thus respected the player.
I was so sad when I found my 3rd edition rulebook ruined in my parents' basement. My 2nd edition stuff survived.
@@imperialcitizen4811 The problem is that unfortunately a lot of people don't have the gentleman's game approach to Warhammer 40K anymore. It's all about finding ways to cheese wins with your models
Tabletop games-miniatures, boardgames, or even card games-have this specific advantage over video/computer games: you own the game, and you can change rules, add components, whatever you please. It's your game. With video games, you don't even own your copy of the game-you are really just licensing it. Of course, this can get a bit out of hand. Some boardgames are inadequately tested, and have to have frequent rule changes euphemized as "living rules" to work properly. Sometimes, we are like hobbits, who "liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions."
Came back to the hobby around 2015 after a hiatus since the late '90s. Walking into a 'Warhammer' store and being told that no, I couldn't have a demo game because "I didn't have anything with me to play" was a real eye-opener for me. That, and the staff literally walking away mid-sentence whenever they saw someone enter the shop to give them the whole "what are you buying today then mate?" bit.
Good on you for making this video mate, us old fuckers need to stick together and the point you make about the origins of these companies being literally the process of DIY hobbying isn't recognised more widely I fear.
As a GenX gamer, gaming and hobbying since the mid 80s and still going, you're preaching to the choir here. I still develop my own games (a Star Wars skirmisher currently), we've always written our own RPG adventures and campaigns, I'm scratch-building movie model replicas and so on. There's a lot of great stuff to consume - like the amazing 3D-print craze currently - but if you only consume and create nothing yourself, you might as well be dead. Only consuming is equal to just existing in the hobby, not living it.
Listened to this while painting my kitbashed Abaddon the Despoiler!
Thanks for listening!
If you're not kitbashing, homebrewing, creating your own units/missions/scenarios and building stuff from scratch, you're not playing Warhammer or D&D. You're playing a computer game in which you do all the math work that the computer is supposed to do for you 😁
True!
Modern GW games are what I call "Table top video games".
Its no longer a war game where people with military experience and knowledge can walk up to a table and identify exactly whats going on.
Preach!
Hah! I've always thought that about tabletop wargames. 😊
Closed source, live-service video game with no SDK at that
If you want to play D&D I would buy the 1e/2e AD&D rules or the current OSE rules. The current version is just a money grab. And as far as GW is concerned, Satan is hand-picking their pineapples.
3.0 and 3.5 are a little more beginner friendly, though. And a lot of the manuals are available online (though by less than legitimate means) and predate Hasbro's reign of greed.
I made a very serious try at 5e. 3 months later, I ditched it and went back to AD&D. Its absolute crap.
3rd edition is a bit crunchy. Stick to OSE or AD&D and enjoy a fun adventure game which isn't bogged down by the dreaded "character optimisation" mini-game
AD&D makes characters so squishy that you have to steal gold and avoid combat to level up.
@@AaronReece OSE and b/x derivatives are way more beginner friendly than AD&D
Truer words have rarely been spoken in regards to WotC and GW.
Gdubs is now anti-hobby. I never thought I'd see another company as anti conversion as Privateer Press was, but here we are.
The amount of idiots on here that still call Warhammer "the hobby" too. They have them all fooled lol. They are only trying to sell us more crap lol.
@@kingnothing5706 what happened with privateeer press?
Joseph McCullough makes games that still follow the homebrew is the main way to play attitude. Rangers of Shadow Deep is still my favorite game to play.
This reminded me of a friend of myn that painted his goblin army as blue skins and his son who was a determined "coolade drinker" said you cant do that they have to be green. His dad said "it's fantasy who says they have to be green, they are mountain goblins and it's cold up there😅" that was decades ago but the brainwashing started back then with the "only our figures,paints,glue,tools and brushes can be used in our game.
I find the structured match play 40k rules are pretty good and offer a fairly consistent experience for pick up games with opponents you might not know very well. In my experience the more players get to know each other and have played a few times they start to leave the matched play stuff a bit and delve more into funky missions and homebrew stuff.
I feel like especially the younger crowd feels a pressure of doing it by thr book exactly because they grew up with digital media, especially Games as a Service.
And in that always online, often competetive environment, doing things another way either quickly earns disdain and connotations of cheating or being a noob that doesn't know how to efficiently play.
And this conditioning seeps into physical games very quickly
Also i would say is, most people generally only see things one or like two ways.
Perfect exmaple, my friend WANTS to play DnD with me but refuses to put any effort into telling me wtf he actually wants and cant think more then 2 things.
Also most DnD people i see basically couldnt use "I throw a bucket of water and my wizbro shoots lighting at him" combo cuz "it not written down and approved of by some jobber"
Hell they say "omg why do DM have to work to make the Campagiiiiin!" 😂
I also add in the HYPER restrictive school system these days. We used to have open lunch where you could pick up a ball and play whatever random sport. Kids today have assigned seating during lunch up to high school and EVERY sport is taken as bloody serious stuff like they were professional athletes. There is so little "fun" and messing around as a kid these days.
It doesn't really help that if you get these kind of communities together there will always be demands for a rules arbiter because there's such little trust that the others will be fair or balanced in their approach. I explicitly remember that GW had to come out and say that Forgeworld rules of all things were legal to use in "normal" 40k games because they were such an unknown to many players and there were concerns about how powerful the units were. That kind of atmosphere makes home brewing or flavorful custom rules impossible because people hear that and think "broken untested and unsanctioned dogshit"
It took me a couple of minutes of watching before I realized what your T-shirt was all about. I just saw it and thought, Thundercats! I loved that cartoon. And then a couple of minutes later I realized.
Actually, I see what you're saying about the shirt. I never once took it like that. I don't know if that was the intention of the shirt or not, but that's pretty depressing if it is. LOL. I would say that is not the point of the shirt, with the exception that she's right in the middle. If she were on the left or the right I would not assume that's the case. I will just keep seeing the shirt I originally did, not sure what their intention was.
the truth bombs coming from this channel are off the charts
Thanks dude! :)
I remember the local store sold bitz kits and half the minies were largely freeform, and the actual store would sell you little hoby kits for smelting tin, like the store right, and white dwarf had whole pages in every edittion on how to kitbash and make stuff up on the go, i think i still have a whfb rulebook that actualy suggests people homebrew rules or just 'throw a dice' to decide on them, somewhere in some box theres still that six armed half horse half human skeleton thing glued together from rests of a undead army sprue, it was fun
Sounds awesome!
One reason I've gotten into third party. Resin kits, 3D prints, and yes, even paper tanks....
The last great Space Marine codex was the 5th Edition version. It gave you access to all the major characters and even encouraged you to build you own custom Legion. So I did just that. I build a custom Legion that had all the special characters kitbashed and later added models to represent Blood Angels and Dark Angels army compositions. Some of my friends borrowed my army to take part in tournaments because I basically have anything they might want in that army but yet look interesting on the table top because its a custom Legion and not another paper cut codex army.
But I saw the writing on the wall and bowed out of the mainstream GW hobby shortly after 6th Edition was released. Sold all my armies away and only years later picked up a Bloodbowl team and some motorised Genestealer Cult models as a small collection for hobbying purposes.
At my peak, I had 4, 40k and WHFB armies respectively. If I have that same amount of money now, I'd rather use that money to pay off my mortgage or go on a nice holiday with my missus.
It sounds like you're happy with your decision! That's the only thing that matters. And you're saving a lot of money.
Kitbashing or scratch building stuff is still alive and well. Especially with 3D printing as great as it is. I’m new to the hobby and I’ve kitbashed my Minotaurs army and terrain. You just need to learn how to use milliput or green stuff. There’s a learning curve in the beginning but you should pick it up as a skill. My pro tip to other newbies is to get some nail art brushes and go to a pet shop for weird terrain. Budgie sand or reptile bark go really far. It’s fun!
I am nearly 40 though so I spent my youth playing meccano and model train kits/ terrain. Maybe it’s a generational thing about following the rules and painting like the box art that gen z do?
I paint my armies as whatever army I've homebrewed, most of them are from worlds that dont exist, once had a guy ask why my army wasnt painted "the right color" i was taken aback by this
Holy hell, great to see you again friend! Good to see you speaking more truth again and I absolutely agree! I though at beginning of video "I hope he brings up when white dwarves used to teach terrain building and creating your own units" and you did which was great! You're definitely right about there being two types of players, the ones who feel they have to do it by the books are the worst or at best just really missing out on the great other and TRUE ways of playing out there! I'm sick of seeing all the new players thinking every single match in 40k having to be the same tournament layout with 5 pieces of terrain, as you pointed out WHERES THE CREATIVITY AND IMAGINATION??? It's great you do that with the objectives and really threw those people off hahaha. Putting asymetrical layouts, twists, all that stuff really feels more in the setting. this estyle itc tournament bullshit is not real warhammer, not real wargaming! and it sucks it's infested everything to be the standard. But there are still players out there holding the flame lit and keeping with the better ways, so there is hope!
Thanks for watching! It sounds like we're in the same boat with our views on this. I have a stack of old White Dwarf magazines from around 2000 that are just FULL of do-it-yourself stuff. That was my favorite part of the magazine! And I've been here the whole time, making videos roughly every week or so. Glad you found me again! Praise the Algo Rythmn Gods!
@@LetsTalkTabletop Absolutely! I'm gonna get your game system too and try it out with my group. I'm running a club for these indy wargames down here in south florida and we're starting to grow!
Just found the channel. Looking forward to watching n learning
Thanks brian!
40k and WHFB used to require 3 players to a match. The third one was the referee who would make calls on actions and scenarios that were not covered in the rule books. The main rulebook had a section dedicated to these battle masters, giving advice on how to adjudicate and improvise rules.
So I am a dude on the rim of this community, playing DND and building minis for fun, but although I have armies of minis, I never got into the Warhammer community because half of them are 3d printed and I don't want to limityself to one company. Also, I don't have the time to learn a new addition every other year. I'd love to play 2-3 wargames a year. But there just does not seem to be a niche for this kind of scope.
In about 2 months I will be releasing a mass battle game called Mass brutality, you can use any miniatures from any genre and any game that you want. I am completely phobic when it comes to power creep or needlessly putting out new editions, so you should be safe. Brutality Skirmish Wargame came out in 2020 and it's still on its first edition.
@@LetsTalkTabletop That sounds like something I would want to look into! :-)
I'm not a war or card gamer but i have been playing ttrpgs most of my life. And nearly none of it was dnd. I have created few homebrew and honestly homebrew is very fun to make and really helps you understand the difficulty of making a game.
Personally might make another homebrew soon. So who knows.
But yeah i recommend every rpg player try games other then dnd. Cyberpunk, world of darkness, powered by the apocalypse, forged in the dark, old school revival (both retroclones and more innovative stuff) European rpgs, Japanese rpgs, ect ect. It'll really break the mental boxes in the heads of people who only play dnd 5e.
Used to collect magic the gathering for a while never really cared about learning the game, homebrew are fun to do
@@shaneriggs6678 the beauty of hobbies like these is that there's many ways to enjoy them.
Respect!!! I consider myself so lucky to get into TTGs in the late 90s when the DIY elements were still healthy! Still happily playing 3.5e homebrews on homemade terrain.
I didn't learn much but I like how you picked the good exemples to illustrate all those anti-consumer changes over time.
I also regret how so many young players can't think outside of the "competitive play" box.
Thanks!
I understand what you mean and I think your video has a point. I'm one of those dinosaurs that started both D&D and Warhammer in the 80's so I can relate to lot of things you mention. But you're missing one element that in my opinion count. At my time there was scarcity. Even if I was lucky enough to have a fully fledged hobby store in my small Italian city and considering everything was only in English at the time there was a scarcity of products that forced us to come up with kitbashing, scenery building and rules writing. Nowadays this scarcity doesn't exists anymore, not only there are a lot of products but it's easier than ever to get them. I'm almost 50, do I really want to buy stirfoam and tools and flock and glue and make my own hills or is it better to just buy them ready? It depends on what are your objectives in the hobby. You want to build terrain? Please go and buy the stuff you need to make terrain, but if it's not your cup of tea it's good to know we have alternatives. Are the big corporation blocking you from doing that? Not really, they are just not showing you anymore how to make terrain because they have the ready product. Are they really obliged to give you the alternative to their own product? It doesn't sounds realistic yeah? I think the internet made possible the creation of communities that are not dependant on big corporations so we just need to do our part to show\inform\tell about the alternatives. And there are some pretty good communities out there. Same for D&D. I love that I can play online and with digital products because now my group lives in three different countries and having tools like fantasy grounds helps me greatly to get a game in. So in short I partially agree, I think the focus, instead of been on blaming corporations because they do what they are supposed to do, should be on promoting the ways of the hobby that people might not know because they are only exposed to the contents of the corporations that run their games. Whoa, that was long... 😅
Haha, yes it was long but it was well said! I think you have a good point there.
Technically GW is now actually blocking you from making your own terrain. Since terrain now gets specific rules in some systems they HAVE to be the correct dimensions. Ergo, they have to be "official" models. Note I don't believe in ANY of this and no longer play these systems.
I think this is a good point but let me counter with "as a child, lack of money made everything scarce for me." And that's my main concern I have with over-monetizing; newer players and kids aren't able to really get into the game because of the cost. It could hurt the community long term.
Great Video, we think you did a good job (trying to be constructive it was a little slow paced I literally watched on times two speed and you were still perfectly understandable). We thought you did really well, another thing you should have mentioned which I think would have solidified your point would be mentioning how they call it the Warhammer hobby rather than the Wargaming hobby.
Great video as we said we shouted you out on our community tab have a good one - Cal and Sunny
Hey, thanks! I guess I'm just a slow talker, haha. Thank you for boosting the signal, friends! Yeah that's a good point, they are even double speaking the name of the hobby now.
My babysitter's son, who was over 18 and in the army in the 90s, introduced me to the game when everything was red. We played Rogue Trader for Years. Creative is gone but they also stole ideas too. I played again later, but so much of the game had changed. The fun has been taken out of the game. Missions are so different now. I miss making armies out of paper, and so many other things that made it unique back then.
You are absolutely correct and this is what I've been telling people. Tbh, i haven't bought a GW model in years. I stopped playing after 8th. But i remember the days before GW became normie stuff where you could kitbash and create your own missions and they were fun. I think they've tried to be more competitive and it just doesn't work for them.
We are now playing One Page Rules and it feels like the days of old. We are making our missions as well as 3D printing and kit bashing our stuff.
I bought the original Necromunda Codex as an Xmas present to myself after saving up for months. My mates and I couldn't afford the models or paints, so we just made paper tokens and terrain. Much fun was had over the years.
classic white dwarf straight up gave sculpting and modeling guides on making carapace armoured ogryn and cadians, there also was tutorials on using greenstuff and a pencil to replicate purity seals for use on miniatures in white dwarf atleast once! the modern white dwarf feels so devoid of creativity to the point that i can't justify the hiked price for it most of the time. i think though we can pinpoint when things shifted for gw from creativity friendliness to cold corporatism and it was both the chapter house lawsuit where it cost them a lot to do and while in name they won it they also lost parts of it too which was why suddenly a whole lot of options that only really existed in the rules suddenly started vanishing from the game in late 6th ed (carapace armoured imperial guard veterans and a 3rd of the characters) the other was the company nearly going under in 2014 which has been talked about a bit over on the painting phase channel by former gw and whtv staff
My friends and I have house ruled crusade games so much that it's basically DnD with sci-fi armies. We even take turns DMing coop missions and make stories on why theese two armies are working together.
Sounds like a ton of fun!
Showing how to build terrain, getting an aproved rule set or at least guidelines for terrain work would be so sweet
As for missions I like asymmetric warfare and poking at my prey, you have to know when to strike set up traps and trades.
I got into 40K between 2nd and 3rd editions, and some of my first purchases (before I even had a rulebook) was that 6-man 'warriors of the imperium' space marine box, and I bought it specifically because of the pose-ability and customization options! I bought several of the 3rd edition tactical squads and gorka-morka ork boxes for the same reasons. I haven't been collecting for the past decade-plus, but if the current models are actually like you described....I doubt I would have ever collected if that had been my first encounter with the hobby.
GW want 40k to be a lifestyle brand/E Sport live service that you constantly pay for to engage. The soul of the company went a long time ago. But it's YOUR hobby. You can do whatever you like with your hobby and you SHOULD.
Yeah and they most likely going to ruin the lore trying to capture the imaginary modern audience and tone down everything that makes them great. Most likely fail as a result of trying to pander to the modern audience crap
I'm old. I used to love the VDRs (vehicle design rules) from 3rd edition.
Preach! I have been trying to explain this for decades to people. I cant anymore.
Here's my torch, brother.
Haha! Thank you! 😊
The overpriced "Gallowdark" Kill Team sets and the rule mess of 40k 9th really soured me on GW. I haven't touched any of those games in two years and haven't missed it. Still enjoying Stargrave though, and found that The One Ring, Mothership, and Pathfinder are excellent replacements for D&D since the whole OGL issue.
That's why I don't feel bad about 3D printing my own stuff. I can literally create EXACTLY the model I want in Blender, pose it and print and get exactly what I want and I'm not gonna have to spend $5 for a single infantry model. I never thought of pursuing 3D printing until I spend over $1,000 creating a Guard army with over 300 Whiteshields, which GW then made useless by eliminating Conscripts.
After that, I just saw how GW deliberately makes each Army with new sculpts OP with the release of the new kits and then "corrects their mistake" and "rebalances" them to bring them in line with everything else as soon as the models are no longer selling well. The entire thing is a scam. I enjoy painting and playing, but GW will never get more than the minimum amount of $$$ from me.
While I’ve had this view of RPGs for a long time, I had not thought about GW & other miniatures companies (Wizkids’ heroclix) doing the same thing. Definitely going to think about this information the next time I’m deciding what minis to buy.
Thanks for watching as always Zachary!
I thought TSR was an evil corp in the 80s, but it's nothing compared to GW. Nothing will please me than to see it fall.. Conversions are more fun than painting, so I too share your frustration with the latest minis.
I LOVE the Godzilla! I used to work at GW in the 80's. I loved that time.
Thanks! It's a resin print that I use in my mech and Kaiju game Brutal Epic.
I just sent this to a few friends. Thanks for sharing!!
Thank you Frazer!
As a massive kitbasher I find it annoying but not impossible to get what I want without a bit of work.
But it saves money and I'd say looks better than some of GWs offerings.
Regarding weird cuts on sprues: There are several reasons: Hiding seams and mould lines and dynamic poses. Then there is a secret reason: Usually the special and unique models are baught once, by making the models very dynamic and cutting sprues very weirdly, they make it a nightmare or impossible to recast.
GW doesn’t even allow fan animations. Anything to deter creativity.
@@GarredHATES fan animation still exist. This is something that people keep perpetuating because TTS used the controversy as an excuse to stop. There are still fan animations being made to this day.
Do you also believe musicians should allow anyone to use their music for free ? What about authors ? Profiting from other people's IP is plagiarism- whether you're a fan or not
@@bobthor9647 fan projects are works of passion and make 0 money. I shouldn’t even have to type this, it should go without saying.
@@GarredHATES This is so obviously and demonstrabl. wrong, I can't believe you even bothered to make this point. What about any animation or fan-podcast on UA-cam? Do you think they make no money?
@GarredHATES fan projects that become popular youtube videos actually do make money . Are you telling me if you made a Marvel movie and released it on UA-cam you'd be surprised Disney sued you ?
I remember back in the day I could assemble my necron warriors in whatever order. Buying the combat patrol box for the necrons showed me how bad of an idea it was to cut everything first, as each arm+weapon combination would only fit a specific torso, but only if you also match the correct left and right arm together. Otherwise the shoulders would be impossibly far apart, in a weird angle, or too narrow.
I had to pretty much cut away a bunch of connecting plastic in the shoulders to glue them still together as it was impossible to randomly match 10 left arms, right arms and torso pieces in the correct order by pure chance.
I have struggled against wargamer philistines my entire life, and in no place have I struggled harder than space marines. Space marines, to me, are space marines. The color of their armor isnt where their special rules are derived from, and yet, if you dont have yellow paint then you cannot play "spaz marins" using the imperial fist rules, for example. At least according to folks who really should be playing napoleons since they are so concerned about the color of my pants.
It's this brand of thoughtless braying about how the game SHOULD be played, missing the entire point about gathering together with your buds to push dollies around a table into various other dollie houses to see who "wins" a game of dollies, that has caused me to actually look away from pick up games ever anymore. Life is just too short for such nonsense.
If they the people you mention truly wish to play by the rules to the word, they should know that paint doesn't matter, only wargear does. I, personally, try to play by the rules just because we are a somewhat competitive community where imbalance could affect our enjoyment. And I can tell you that paint doesn't matter
At all. It doesn't matter in competitive games. It doesn't matter in tournaments. And it shouldn't matter in casual games.
My Death Guard is red and gold. And, forgive me if I sound conceited, but my death guard is better painted that what many people can pull off. If anyone tells me I cannot play them as Death Guard, they can f off.
I use the marneus Calgar model (suitably kitbashed) as the chapter master for my blood angels successor chapter. The number of people who have, even in casual settings, told me I can't do that, is extremely disappointing.
@@theendofmyropemydude to me, that feels like the same irrational disconnect where someone is asking you "What is your fave animal", and after you answer, you are told that you are wrong.
Like, how is an entirely subjective opinion "wrong/incorrect"?
You saw marneus, imagined he would look cool as your leader, and wanted to share that inspiration with others.
Its valid that they may not like it, but to outright say you cant play with your dollies the way you want to play with them, is even more ridiculous than calling dollies "dollies".
@@Colorcrayons I even went through the hassle of removing all the Ultramarines iconography and replacing it with my own. But no, since he has the keyword Ultramarines in the codex it's just impossible for people to imagine him being used in a fluffy blood angels successor list.
That's what gets me the most, this isn't even tournament cheese, it's just liking a model and not liking Ultramarines.
Sadly you have to shop around for players if you are creative. Keep searching!
Ah finally new video on my favourite tabletop philosophy channel
Wow, thanks! That means a lot!
@@LetsTalkTabletop haha, i really felt the lack of a channel that talks our hobby not from an “overexcited fun” point of view, but from a point of a critical thinking person, who remembers that our hobby is in hands of people who don’t care about it at all.
Sooo true. This was the case even 15 years ago. Every time GW would release a new edition of their game, the grand majority of the community collectively accepted that the old one is dead and cannot be played anymore. I have 3 fat edition books in my shelf. Nothing is stopping me from playing 7th edition 40k except the idea of „this is old. It’s not the new thing. So it’s actually pointless to play it.“
We are so brainwashed …
Luckily I am an orc player and kitbashing is kind of their thing
Makes me want to start a miniatures company that instead of selling minis sells moulds. Bring back the old tin soldiers model.
So instead of buying an army, you buy a set of moulds and some tin and fabricate your own army for your games.
WIll it be massively capitalistic and lucrative? Probably not. Will it be consumer friendly? Yeah, I'd think so, that's the point.
Honestly that's such a neat idea that I wouldn't be surprised if it caught on.
@@LetsTalkTabletop And it's not like it's a ground-breaking idea. It's proven tech AND it cuts down on plastic, so I really don't see why not
Ive been reviving 1st edition 40k at my flgs
I have 5 players, we are having a blast
I would like to point out something I've found out about 1st
It's the most primordial form of 40k, it certainyl isn't balanced but not because it's bad
It's not balanced because it's infinitely customizable
Meaning you have to agree on your list with your opponents beforehand to play fair
In my not humble but INFORMED opinion of playing this game since 4th edition, 1st is superior, full stop, it's TRUE 40k
GW’s minis are also cut that way to counter illegal recasting and the scourge of 3D scanning and printing. The Last Great Hurrah of GW’s DIY era was the 2003 General’s Compendium from Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th edition. This book was produced by the US studio… which believe it or not, used to exist. It is chock-full of DIY ideas for creating a WIDE variety of terrain, building your own boats of various sizes, building a 3D campaign map without using their plastic “Mighty Empires” hexes (oop at the time), converting miniatures and running an elaborate map campaign. The only thing wrong with that book is the binding, which uses the stiffest glue I’ve ever seen in a book. It’s almost impossible to read the book without permanently damaging it (mine is still together but I am VERY careful with it.) This book also came out around the time of “Warhammer Skirmish” which was a great little system that also encouraged DIY activities (also produced by the US studio, iirc).
I think this book was noticed by the execs at GW and it was the light bulb going off over their heads. “Why are we giving away all this free skill-building instruction when we could just sell them every little thing possible?” It’s been a downhill slide into GW forcefully spoon-feeding everything to their customers since. 😢
Re: D&D I remember seeing a short video clip of Gary Gygax saying, “Don’t let anyone know, but all you need are the basic rules and an imagination.”
TSR originally never intended to produce adventure modules. In fact, in one of the original edition books, the foreword by Gygax says something like, “and with this book, Dungeons and Dragons is complete. Enjoy!” There was a brief moment in time where he actually thought the Game Was Done. The first D&D module is a licensed vampire adventure by some third party. It’s SUPER-rare now, as you can imagine. Once Gygax saw how much money the game was bringing in, he realized they needed to keep producing new products to take advantage of the opportunity. That’s now gone into hyperdrive with WotC at the wheel.
Well said! Glad it isn’t just me. The new plastic kits give the downsides of plastic (having to assemble) with none of the upsides (kit bash and posing)
Well explained! Do it yourself - this is so much fun, I guarantee it to you.
These are very good thoughts. Thanks for reminding.
My entry into miniatures was xwing, which played the same way GW and WotC does things with constant rebalance/tweaks. Got into 40k. Love the models and the IP.
Getting fed up with the rule changes just for the rule changes, but not sure how to build up a new group to play a set rule set that’s more static
I'll admit it: I clicked on this video solely because of the thumbnail with woTC and GW in a shady '50s gangster outfit
I thought it was neat too. Thanks! Maybe a little over dramatic but I liked the imagery
I really miss chapter approved being able to kitbash your own vehicles and make rules for them was awesome.
The GW miniatures requiring you to assemble from 1000 pieces make GW more money. More pieces means more difficult for recasting, and blister-pack characters require very little designing or production cost but sells at a premium, especially when the new character have better rules than they normally would. I don't really mind. With one-page rule in hand, a little home-brew missions, and 3d-printers go brrrrrrrrrrrr, I'm enjoying the hobby like never before.
Chinese can recast anything they want with reasonable quality at least and more than often it is as good as the real thing. GW did this to stop kitbashing period. They want to set their miniatures appart from the competition with details overload.
@@vlad78th Exactly. Recasters even has better service whenever you need a part replaced or something. Dealing with forge world on the other hand, your experiences may vary.
I like having the rules and supplements as a base, but there is no way I would stop at just that especially since there is no reason not to create our own stuff.
Had a former gaming group that was hyper competitive and they basically just killed the enjoyment in order to just win at all costs.
Glad I am playing on my own and never believed in the term "sadhammer" for solo games as at the end of the day these models are no different (except for the building, painting or custom creations) than buying a bag of army men (still gotta get a copy of combat storm).
Never regretted my stuff just that as of now I have no room to play at the moment as I had to put stuff into storage since the move U_U
My background is solo gaming, so I also don't agree with Sadhammer. You'll find time and space to game again! Even if it means playing smaller scale.
I always was aware of this aspect of D&D since I learned from an Uncle who's as old as Gygax but it's honestly only older UA-camrs who turned me onto the homebrew history of wargaming. I hope we see the demise of publicly traded game companies and IP in my lifetime. Great vid!
Great video. You make awesome points. I really like how you pointed out the lack of imagination and originality by the players. Just methodically following GW strongly step blindly.
Glad you enjoyed!
Some input from the Battletech side. Yeah,we're still alive. CGL can't kill us no matter how hard they try to let the crazies inject politics of any type into the game.
Mercenaries was my first,and last kickstarter. It had my first mech in a nicely done mini in it(a Scorpion) and that's about it. Now I'm gonna buy from 2nd hand or people who do printing to get any extra minis I want.
So,to tie into the above. My old man and I spent the day together not too long ago to search for some table top stores. We found a few,and one of them,had a surprising amount of 40K stuff in it(with a decent selection of DnD and Battletech). I was *quite* interested in getting my hands on an Imperial Knight model set(two knights,and the box looked very nicely done). 90 dollars. 90 dollars for two models is WILD to me. That's almost the price of a 3D printed Dropship in Battletech if you buy privately.
Im an old grognard. I remember when GW used to promote kitbashing,and showed you how to make your own models in their magazine. I remember when they told us that going from metal to plastic minis would be better,we'd get more,high quality minis. It's wild how that since then,the minis got WAY more expensive.
Sorry GW,you priced me out and pushed me to Battletech. With Battletech joining the crazies slowly,it looks like I'm just gonna have to sail the seas and gather my physical media. Battletech will survive without CGL. 40K will survive without GW. But I do not think either realize they can't survive without us supporting them.
You're right, I've always leaned anti-corpo, it's always been your hobby, it's your choice to make the most of it
When I started, Citadel Miniatures used to sell individual components for metal models, for the purpose of kit bashing. So you didn't have to buy the whole model just to get a certain arm or head, you just ordered the bits you wanted. It was great.
Not a Warhammer player, but I definitely share y'alls frustration over prices and excessive editions. Wargaming as a whole feels like it's attempting to become excessively expensive. Also really cool Star Trek poster!
I've pretty close to stopped buying GW, and buy a lot more North Star minis for Frostgrave, Stargrave, and Oathmark, and Wargames Atlantic guys, for that older kitbash friendly aesthetic and not being price gouged. That and 3D printing. But I'm one of those old guys who remembers wargaming before GW and D&D as fugly but charming little brown booklets.
I've noticed the Venn Diagram of "by the book" and "competitive" players is a circle. And none of them are motivated by the spirit of the game or the hobby aspect. It's all about their ability to prove their superiority in a game of toy soldiers. I've had 2 players like that call me a gatekeeper because I don't like using the objective deck and "don't play the correct way, and that scares away new players".
This is the greatest commentary on modern gaming I have seen yet. I agree 💯!!!
Thank you!
It's a shame that I haven't been able to run into those innovative players who are creating their own missions. Instead, I'm stuck playing with the boring and unoriginal players who only follow the rules and stick to the store-bought missions. I miss the days when I used to play with imaginative and creative players who weren't afraid to think outside the box and come up with their own missions. These players were true innovators, constantly pushing the boundaries and bringing something new and exciting to the game. It's disappointing that nowadays, it seems like everyone just wants to play it safe and stick to what's already been done. I long for the days when I could join a game and be taken on a unique adventure, filled with unexpected twists and turns, all thanks to the brilliant minds of those old players with imagination. I hope that one day, I'll be able to run into those innovators again and experience the thrill of playing with people who are not afraid to challenge the status quo and create their own path. Until then, I'll keep searching for those rare gems in the gaming world, hoping to once again be part of a truly innovative and imaginative gaming experience.
I started with Games Workshop way back with 1st edition, Rouge Trader as it was known.
I phased out of the hobby some years ago now when the prices got just too high and the editions kept coming out too quickly and it became so obvious that they didn't care about the hobby or the players, all they cared about was making money.
I won't go into all that though, I just want to throw up 2 examples of how it used to be.
Back in the Rouge Trader rulebook there were instructions on how to build an Imperial grav-tank using I think it was a deodorant bottle as the main body of the vehicle. Or maybe it was a shampoo bottle? I really can't remember, it's been like 30 years! But yes, in the main rule book it showed you how to make a vehicle out of empty bottles.
Second, the whirlwind. This I think was 2nd Edition, you bought yourself a Rhino, and using a large square monster base and some card and some bits from the Rhino sprue you made yourself your own missile launcher to go on the top of the Rhino to turn it into a Whirlwind. The instructions to do this was either in the White Dwarf or a rulebook or maybe in with the Rhino itself, I really can't remember, but it was official advice from GW on how to build your own Whirlwind launcher to go on top your tank.
I remember building two Whirlwind launchers and putting one on top of a Land Raider and the other on top of a Dreadnaught!
"Don't ask questions, just consume product and get excited for next product."