I saw a guy use an old school 6 dollar bag of plastic army men once. Even quickly painted a red bandana on their heads so he could call them Catachans. lol
Once played against a guy who printed his entire guard army. Like, inkjet. Bases were correct size, Paper was cut out to appropriate height. Dude even had construction paper tanks and Chimera. The guardsman were just paper glued to popsicle sticks on basese. Started our game with "Hey man, I apologize that they're paper. I can't afford the army without play testing it first." Guy was a pleasure to play with and respected the fact that some people dont like proxies. They were the most inspired and incredible proxies I had ever seen. The whole game club let him use them for a while and he ended up making a Valykrie (everything was 100% dimensionally accurate) shortly before he started buying.
I think we as players are more forgiving when it comes to "Can I proxy X for Y in this game so I can decide if I want to buy appropriate models and spend all the time to paint them?"
@kenupton4084 I joined WH around the time the article was published in the white dwarf. Loved it. The vehicle design rules were terribly broken. You remember the edition that had the flat cardboard tokens for representing ork dreadnaughts? Loved them to bits!!
It's "case _in_ point", FYI, but yeah, those articles were great; you don't get stuff like that in this era of expensive boxes of cast-plastic terrain...
There are two kinds of players. One wants to play the game so they need some kind of minitures to use and dont care to much how they look. The other one wants to build and paint the minitures and then just play the game to use and show them. The Mickey Mouse army sound fun.
- its clear what they are - its clear what equipment they have - as close to the original scale/size - the correct base size If all these are ticked, i have no issues playing against proxy models
I'm flexible on base size if the conversion is old, and it matches an older base size used at the time. Want to use your Void Viridian Commando missile team you glued to a 60mm base? Sure, why not?
The craziest proxy I did was with my friend. I was running late and I found out the carry trays in my box had slipped sideways and crushed my Junith Eruita. I didn't have time to repair her and immediately drive to the store hoping the glue would be enough. Luckily, I had just bought my first Amiibo and I got an idea. Ironically, Princess Peach was on a 50mm base and approximately the same dimensions. So I played with a 15ft tall princess against some 8ft Space Marines. XD
As long as I understand what you're trying to do, I'm usually okay with most things. Granted, I am not a hyper-competitive type of player. Because of cash restrictions I've had to use paper cutout proxies before.
I think it's a question of honor If you want to test a unit and want to use a paper model before you commit, and ask about it beforehand, that's honorable. If you have taken the time to hand-pick a 3D model which matches the theme of your army, and painted it, that's honorable. If you have lovingly kitbashed an entire army of rat Imperial Guards, that's honorable as well and I can accept your silly Mickey Mouse proxy (Though it would be preferable if you found one in scale and made it all grimdark - I can handle a meme but you gotta OWN that meme) But if it's clear you are doing this simply because it's cheap - Say dropping some unmodified gunpla on the field and calling them Imperial Knights - That's when it gets dishonorable. I'd be fine with someone chasing a meta list as it emerges just to see how it runs, but if they are doing that every week then it gets really silly and not so honorable. I think the core question of proxying is like... "Is this respectful to the game?" The same action can be honorable or dishonorable depending on circumstance, with that in mind
I'd like this again if I could. Being respectful to the expected immersion level of your opponent, and them in kind, is the most important part of the hobby.
I think the only thing that matters is "I can tell what I am shooting" You cant roll up with some green army men and expect me to know this is a that and this one has Combat B.A.T Launcher upgrade?! 😂
"what proxies should be allowed?" It's a board game for fun. This is the year 2025. I have a good job but I'll be damned before I blow all my money on toy soldiers that could be discontinued tomorrow. Proxy anything and everything
I once played against a guy who was not ok with my collourscheme being wrong.... well saying we played is an overstatement since he refused to play against my space marines that i had painted with deathguard green and baltazar gold. Mind you, it was real good looking and had only the standard kit pieces.
@@mariosskordos9177 i could have understood if i had plopped down some actual plague marines. But when it comes to painjobs i could have gone full black legion and it shouldnt matter.
@@emilvennerberg4927 GW has made it clear that colours don't matter and carry no rules burden. I already hate rules sharks as it is, but this takes stupidity to a whole new level.
I remember hitting a local store for some games and a guy had a full ork bike squad that was on Lego horses. Kinda strange but he glued Orks and the weapons on them so I didn’t mind them
Probably the most egregious - but maybe most excusable - form of proxies happens in large points games with super heavy models. When I was a single guy, I bought a full on authentic Forgeworld Chaos Warhound titan with some tax return money. My brother - who was excited to play against it - invited me over to his house to play a massive apocalypse game about a year later. He lived over 2 hours away at the time so when I arrived I just simply packed in for the night. He asked if he could take my titan to his craft room to look it over. I said sure and went to bed. The next morning we started setting up and he runs upstairs and comes back down with a completely Styrofoam and cardboard Lucious Pattern Warhound titan. He had carved it out with a wire knife the night before, and glued it together with a hot glue gun. Except his titan was armed with dual twin laser destructors - as opposed to my Vulcan Mega Bolter and Plasma Blastgun. He got first turn and in 45 minutes my super heavies were smoldering ruins, and I had nothing to counter him. I was pretty chafed by this and called the game - which made him mad... but hey what are brothers for? On more than one occasion, I saw guys show up with sandbox pails and say they were Ork Gargants. One time I saw a guy bring a 12" Starship Trooper warrior bug to a game and said it was a Hierophant Bio-Titan. And then there was the Baneblade G.I. Joe tank. Do you think these crossed the lines of acceptability? It's hard to say... 'official' models for some of these are expensive or just don't exist.
It helps if the bad proxies have a prominent label on the leader base or otherwise with the unit that says what they are. So at least you can tell by reading the label.
At that point why bother using a rule set? If the models are so trivial then wouldn't it just be as "enjoyable" as pushing them around in the sandbox and saying "pew pew I got you!"
"Oh its just toy soliders, none of it matter" Ok then go play Toy Soldiers. I play Warhammer for Spectacle and narrative. Not so some Hobbylet can bring his greytide and ww2 shermans that he calls russes to the table and have me questioning what it what all game.
@sheevpalpatine9532 you are self-deception doesn't change a fact it's toy soldiers. Outside of a tournament, you can use ANYTHING to represent those toy soldiers. And if anything tournaments is where everyone should use proxies because that way it is still rather than your typical pay to win mindset a WAAC player.
@ You're an actual idiot. Comp players and WAAC players are the kind of people to do the exact thing you're on about. People like myself who play for the narrative and the story want to play with consistent models and themes that match the setting. You're a tourist and are showing bad ediquette to your opponent and the community if you have such little respect that you would field random trash and call it something else. Call it toy soldiers all you want but I'd like to see you go into a game of Yugioh and take pokemon cards and go "Lol its just pieces of sqaure paper, I can use whatever I want"
I got a completely 3d printed guard army. Mostly so I can field my favorite regiment the Valhallan ice warriors. The only thing out of scale I my catachans who are about 10% bigger than the rest of them but that’s to make them lore accurate.
I've only played 1 game of 40k 20 years ago but I've always been interested in it for the gameplay and the setting. Now I want to make an Army Men Ultra Marines army for the lulz
So I like 3d printing, but base sizes, scale and weapons being WYSIWYG is important to me. IE. I am working on a goblin army, but I'm using garden gnomes with the correct weapons and scale, because it's funnier. Shoutout to Warp Miniatures.
I started playing out when i was 13 playing 40k at my local game store, having only played with my older brother until then, and of course, being that young i couldn't really afford the miniatures. But, i had a lot of different toys and things I used that i converted to work. For a predator proxy, I used a plastic army men tank that i had crudely painted up, and with a little super glue i had glued some g.i.joe guns to the sides as sponsons For my rhino, I used another army men tank that had a broken turret gun that i just glued more g.i.joe guns on the top to be the pintle mount bolter. I used a bunch of relatively small sized toys for space marines. like the kind you got in vending machines. I had devastators that were some kind of little robots i had gotten, regular marines that were toy soldiers, all painted up and had stuff glued on to be weapons when needed. Eventually i was able to start getting proper miniatures and replaced the things in that army, but folks were pretty cool with me about it, and even taught me how to paint and kitbash as I got real miniatures to use. I might not be where i am with the hobby now if it wasn't for those guys.
As long as they're a similar scale I wouldn't mind, but those green army toys tend to be huge so you'd be at a disadvantage when it comes to cover and stuff
I have 140 "Blood Angels" that are converted Stormcast. Every one in the army is a conversion. Stormcast body, squad accurate arms/weapons, venerable dreadnought head, and mk3 marine backpack. Terminators are converted Stormcast Annihilators.
Me and a friend , we play mutant chronicles warzone and WH40K. We use Warzone minis as proxies often and the same with WH40k minis because both are close to the Setting of the game. But we set our own houserules when we play WH40K and Warzone so that we dont confuse us with the armies . Cadians are perfect for capitol-soldiers , Spacemarines for bauhaus-units and so on and vice versa .
Skaven guard: Cool. Disney guard... I mean, plonking Mickey on the table and calling it a day isn't okay, but with a bit of hobby work, I think there's something there. Donald, grizzled and covered with scars, holding the line and wielding a bolt pistol to ensure the triplets don't break and run - Dale range-finding for Chip, who aims a long-las at a distant foe, while the pair take cover in a bombed out ruin - Goofy, raising his head from the corpse of his last kill, blood dripping from his teeth - and overhead, Launchpad desperately avoids clouds of anti-air fire as he tries to deliver another squad to the front lines. Probably not the easiest project in the world, but it could definitely be interesting.
Micky Mouse as a Commisar is funny NGL, I get the scaling issue though and I understand the issue for immersion though. As for competitive proxying, that's why I feel that Wargames being treated as a competitive hobby is a mistake IMO, and proxying models as a whole different army is a bridge too far IMO lmao.
I'm working on a land raider for grey knights out of a cardboard box and I'm getting the real troops and I made the proxy to be more realistic so it can actually transport them in side I used the real dimensions 6L x 4W and used my death guard plague marines for hight scale
I once had a game against an Eldar army where none of the vehicle had weapons modelled. And it was a vehicle heavy army list. None of them. In the list, all vehicles had different weapon loadouts. As the game developed, the non-existing weapons received the ability to morph into whatever was required at that time. Never again. I don't mind people proxying units if they want to give a unit a try, and don't want to commit to the official models. I get it, "some companies" are ridiculously expensive, and not everybody has got the disposable income. But don't take advantage of the goodwill of your opponent, or you will find yourself hard-pressed to find any opponent willing to play against you.
Proxies are okay if they don’t break immersion. lol most people don’t want to think like that because it places their grey models on the same level as the tissue box land raider.
I think there needs to be another category: 3rd party proxy. I HATE the moon buggy look of Votann vehicles, so I converted tanks from Mantic's Forge Father line.
@@Darkshadow64540 What about 20 year old genestealers on 25 mm bases? Or 3rd edition Space Hulk genestealers with no bases at all? Will you throw a tantrum because a old school gamer in his 40's won't rebases his stuff because he only plays casually and doesn't intend to take part in tournaments?
@sleeplessknight99 you notice I specifically mentioned tournament organizers, casual games are a lot more forgiving. I only JUST got around to rebasing my genestealers on 32mm, it's actually a massive quality of life upgrade because the old models had horrid balance
Yeah, the mickey and millie seem uncool. How fun would it have been if he had painted up the correct minis in the Mickey and Minnie colors? For my friends, so long as you declare what your models is before hand and the size is roughly correct. Additionally our proxies are also warhammer models units, some are estyborn, but they look like they fit.
for carnifex as a screamer killer, in 9th it was a equipment option on the same kit so imo its a reasonable proxy (assuming you're not also running carnifexes)
My First Experience in Tabletop was with BattleTech. We used Dice as Proxies and wrote down wich Number represented wich model and gave the list to the opponent so he knew exactly wich is wich. So we could test out wich Mechs would fit best our own playstyle before buying the models from our very thight pocketmoney. Nowadays I do sometimes proxy Models as sth else before buying the model too, but most I use sth wich is completely out of place (with right base size) so it is not confusing with another troop (although it breaks the immersion).
I’ve got a proxy Necron Monolith that I use occasionally, but it’s very obviously a monolith. It’s made from cardboard and hot glue, and I’ve painted it to fit the part. And every time I’ve used it my opponent has complimented my craftsmanship. That’s the sort of poorhammer proxy I want to play against. Currently putting together a cardboard Gauss Pylon similarly
Personally, if something is correct size (meaby even base itself if system is not considering model itself in measurments) and does not add mental labor for your opponent (like remembering something not obvious - ex red Carnifex is Screamakilla, but blue Carnifex is Carnifex), then it is ok.
Ork players get a pass for kitbashing because it’s a central theme for the army. I have a Goliath and rhino Kitbashed into trukks but I bought actual trukk kits to use the peices for the wrecking ball and Big shoots. The Goliath is a little smaller than the actual trukk, but the old metal trukk model, which is still tournament legal, is smaller than a Goliath. Also, at one point, we had a paper model for the dreadnaught that is still tournament legal.
I’m making a squiggoth out of a HTTYD toy right now, and I agree kit bashing is essential to the ork play style and generally a major part of the Orkz general design.
@@Darkshadow64540 I’m specifically referring to the second edition starter set dreadnaught. Though it very obviously depicts what we would today call a deff dread, the box declared it as a dreadnaught.
WYSIWYG isn't a worry for me in 40k. I only care that it's proper scale and base, and it's easy to tell what it's supposed to be. If someone has an issue with 3d printing, don't play with that person.
I use a Phobos Librarian as a regular Librarian, because the model was a gift, it’s cool as hell and I will be damned if I spend 40 dollars on another miniature that’s basically the same thing, just so I could use it with my standard infinity squads.
My friends and I prefer to use generic game pieces (such as colored plastic pawns) as our proxies. That way we can have any army for any game that we wish.
Back in the day, around 5th edition, I got a couple local kids interested in the hobby. The only "real" models they used were ones I gave them, bits-box conversions I found at the flgs (actually not so local, as it's 70 miles away), used lots I found on ebay, and whatever they could make from my extensive sprue pile. I used my printer to print off 2D marine cuttouts to put into slotted bases. One kid played Orks, and made a darn impressive looted Basilisk using an army man tank, a ballpoint pen and some plasticard.
My only requirement is general shape and base size. A heavy weapon should look heavy, but I don’t care if it’s a grav-Cannon, Lascannon, or Meltagun. I don’t know what they do anyways.
For me to far is if we use food or drinks like coke bottles as proxy. I mean I know not everyone can go WYSIWYG on their weapons Loadout and that's fine aslong as I know what their unit Loadout is it's fine. 3D prints have become really good these days so I am fine as well but bottles and cans as X unit? Nah thanks that's not fine
In 5th-7th ed 40K, I played a Guard army based on brood brothers (GSC hadn't had rules since 2nd) complete with hybrids for squad leaders and vet units. I once had some kid tell me I had to use GW models to play GW games. That's when the tournament organizer told my opponent that my models were older than he was. Never had any issues with my army since. Things got messy when GW decided to make GSC a real army again and I had to remove all my hybrids from the Guard army to make a separate detachment.
As a historical gamer I'm OK if a unit is proxed by a similar unit, for instance we are playing a battle where the Ebla Landweh fought and you use Westphalian landwehr. Because we don't have time to paint everything. Same goes if you substitute a unit with a one thats close like uhlans with lancers or you dont have minis for the british foot guard so you give a regular infantry some sort of token that I can see and you tell me what that means. Where I draw the line is with goofy paintjobs like hello kitty regiments. I mean I will play once with you but I'm not gonna feel like comming back or be excited. Also is you proxy something which is totally different from what you put one the table- like using infantry with muskets as infantry with rifles.
I fully get not wanting to play vs hello kitty with your WW1 British infantry, but.. is historical war gaming not always been a little different then fantasy wargaming? Your stuff is very based on real world stuff so i get it fully, that's why i dont do historical war gaming. But i have a wizard elf who is riding a dragon getting ready to cast magic and summon griffins to the battle. Or a super strong future solder using physic powers to pew pew pew the space bug as a space elf does.. space elf things.. I think the question for proxies come down less of is it ok and more " what are you trying to do?" if youre just looking to have fun go have fun. If you looking to have a battle between 2 factions taking place in X war.. then yeah, proxies may seem very out of place. Not all war gaming is the game, not all games and gamers are the same.
Wargames can be mentally taxing but are also fun! So in my book, the line is a simply balance of of does it make the harder to play, or more fun? Because having to remember your own rules is one thing, but often the added mental gymnastics of remembering that 'this' is actually 'this', and 'that' is actually 'that' has left me feeling as though I'm playing with a disadvantage. (Now, while I'm not too bothered about actually winning it do feel like I should at least have a fair crack). And yet, the chance to fight or use a titan (or other equally epic model) is something I always relish, even if it's made from cerial boxes!
Personally I like to have little stories around why I’m fighting this particular army. So as long as it’s a model I’m ok with it, but I don’t like using blank bases or other things as proxies.
I deffiantly agree with the whole function thing, at least has to have distinguishable weaponry, and accurate base/vehicle sizes. As long as you have that, I'll believe your zombies are poxwalkers
While I don't proxie anymore as I now have a job that gives me the spare funds to afford models. In some cases I do find it more fun to do certain things. I play high elves in fantasy/old world. Well I had recently watched dungeon meshi and saw chimera Falin. (She fuses with a red dragon and angelic white wings and feathers, she looks so cool) so I found an STL file for her, scaled it to the appropriate size to fit on a base. And I sometimes use her as an elf archmage on a red dragon. None of my friends have seen a problem with it. High elves for old world don't have a model range yet. And Sigmar elves are scaled up to fit into the newer base sizes used in the game. So all my elves are 3d printed until the high elves army comes out officially and I can buy models for it.
Personally, I wouldn't be cool with the werewolf troggoths because werewolves are already an existing subfaction within the Soulblight Gravelords. Its not even the right Grand Alliance
I had to borrow my friends world eaters rhino and use that instead of my impulsors after a kid bumped into me and i smashed it on the table. My opponent was just laughing as he nova cannoned it with his big knight
I will say in regards to your example for "Bad" proxies, If someone want's to proxy all of one unit into another of equal size that they don't have as means of seeing if they like the unit before investing potentially hundreds of dollars, I don't see that as bad. As long as everything is stated beforehand and they're not trying to make it confusing I'd be fine with that.
Me and my uncle wanted to get into kill team… so we used dice as proxies, D6 being a basic warrior D20 being heavy, etc… We have switched to 3D printing now (we’re poor lol)
proxies are fine as long as 1, they're not for official tournaments, it's clear that Games Workshop sells miniatures and wants you to use their miniatures in your tournaments and 2, both players are aware that these are not official miniatures, they agree with it and they know what miniature each proxies represent (making a list with a picture next to what each unofficial miniature is supposed to be as a reference for the player you're playing against adds a lot of points) if both conditions are met, go ahead and play with proxies all you want, in fact, I encourage using cardboard boxes of equivalent size to represent a tank/rhino or any vehicle and test how it handles on the battlefield before buying that same vehicle in physical form. to be sure you like it and it performs well, or any equivalent sized miniature to test infantry units and see how good they are or how fun they are before buying, we know that miniatures are expensive, and if you bring me 20 wine corks and tell me that I'm 20 Cadians I'm not going to complain as long as it shows which are the sergeants, I have played games against tea boxes that were actually Ork vehicles or Tyranid bioforms, but always making it clear which is a proxy for which miniature, on the other hand, unofficial Games Workshop miniatures are miniatures and, although many of them can be considered piracy by infringing intellectual property, which is horrible, if you want to grab the futuristic Soviet tank from x brand and use it as a Leman Rush in your games to give more variety to your army, or the AT-ST walker and use it as a sentinel or anything like that, as long as it has base size, and everything is correct it seems fine to me, I play Orks and if I take 3 units of 20 gretchins or boyz I don't want them all to be the same and obviously I'm going to sneak in some "space goblin or orc from x or y brand because it looks epic and that way I don't have them all the same" miniatures anyway, if you're going to a tournament, always talk to the organization beforehand, tell them which units are proxies or kitbashed and bring an official miniature of that same unit that you want to exchange in case your opponent doesn't feel comfortable playing with unofficial miniatures, you play with him with a 100% workshop army, as a general rule, people don't usually have problems with kitbash, I have 2 warboss, one is made from a meganoble and the other from a chaos terminator and I've never had problems taking them to official tournaments, but the gretchins/boyz and unofficial vehicles have given me problems in tournaments, and I usually take the official version of each vehicle because even though they've told me beforehand that there was no problem, sometimes I've arrived to have the judge tell me that I can't play with that miniature because it doesn't exactly correspond to any official miniature and it was "pirate" when you can't call "pirate" something that doesn't infringe any intellectual property law or because of the matter of the measurements, and that I usually look for miniatures slightly larger than the official ones so as not to have any unfair advantage and that on the contrary, they suppose a disadvantage for me in case of playing against someone, so in case they tell me that I can't use it, I use the games workshop version and play with 3 identical trucks or 60 clone gretchins without any grace... in any case always keep in mind that in essence this is a game and the main thing is to have fun, one plays Warhammer to have a good time, and most don't participate in the competitive scene, if you're not in a tournament, be more permissive with your rival in what he carries as a miniature without worrying about whether it's a piece of cardboard or a miniature whether it's official or games workshop, not everyone has the same resources and the miniatures are expensive, let him test them based on proxies to see if he should buy them or not, or what Play with proxies in case you can't or don't want to spend your money on figurines, remember the price of each box and the huge expense that it represents for many households to buy an army that they don't know if they'll like or not, their way of playing it
I rarely ever use proxies that arent alternate models. For example, using a Krieg command squad as a regular command squad or even (for one game) using 5 Aggressors as 5 terminators (40mm base, fists, two bolt barrels). However, im not entirely opposed to more "drastic" stand-ins like using a demon prince as a dreadnought or the example of Werewolves as Trolls. I do remember having a bad experience where i lost a game vecause i was actively avoiding a demon prince that was actually just a chaos lieutenant. The only time my friends and i used terrible proxies was when were testing army lists before making purchases for Warhammer Fantasy Battles. We had plenty of models of the correct height and base size to show scale and we cut the units out of graph paper. So if we needed line of sight we could put a handful of models on our paper armies and take a look. It was really easy to set up and play, we just crossed out the squares in the units as the models died off. Lots of Dwarves vs Tomb Kings battles.
So long as I can easily tell what is being used and the base sizes are right I think it's fine. So long as I can look at what you've got and tell what they are, go ahead.
I think we overestimate our opponent's familiarity with our own army which often doesn't cause a fuss when like an archer is an archer, but in 40K even when I don't procy there's confusion because of how similar in style alot of units I have can be, like I often get asked which unit is Chosen and Legionaires in CSM so much that the Chosen now have a dedicated banner for easy visual reference. If the confusion happens anyway even with clear communication and official models, that's not a complaint that can be made against proxies IMO.
I once had a guy upset I used 30k Minis for my Risen/Fallen Dark Angels, even though I played every unit with 40k Loadouts as 40k units...my Deimos Pred? Pred Destructor, Deimos Vindicator? Vindicator. Tacticals? Tacticals. Dude was still vehement, only DEBATABLE unit I play is a kitbashed Techmarine which is a MkIII Marine with Bits from a Techpriest Enginseer and a Primaris Sternguard Vet Combi Weapon. Which is funny since they didn't mind my Legends models (Contemptor and Leviathan Dread, which both were too different for me to argue them as Castra Ferrum Dreads)
As newer players my brother and I will use a proxy to test out how certain models or units play before we drop the cash on them. Or especially if it’s a casual game it’s like this time I wanna run my warboss as Mr.Thraka just for fun. It largely depends on who you play with and where you play imo but definitely in a more professional or competitive game I think there are certain standards expected and that’s fair.
my proxies are always " so my army is a custom chapter/ regiment/ clan so I'm using kitbashed stuff" or " hey the modern ork boys kit sucks all of the basic boys are sluggas and choppas and this cuz I ain't buying another monopose boyz kit cuz thats lame" only time I'm ever not ok with proxies is when it's clearly done for advantage, overly confusing or fully immersion breaking
Great video. I'm all for proxies, but for me, you have to use miniatures that scale properly. 3d printing is fantastic and cheaper in many ways, so no problem there. In fact, I find 3d prints look better than the originals. How do u feel about people who create new types of armies with lore and such?
man, was hoping he'd mention how they accounted for the 'illegal' size of those mickey figures during the match. The loss of immersion is one thing but, where is base to base contact?
Problem with the example of "Good proxies" is they're far and few between. I have a 3d printer and love Warhammer, I'll make sure my stuff is scaled and painted correctly and look as close as possible to what it should be. I feel like I'm the edge case at my LGS. Most people print our whatever they want at whatever scale, don't bother to paint or even give it the correct or similar weapon options then act entitled as if they deserve games because they put in the minimum effort.
For me personally as long as you can tell what the model is supposed to be and it’s around the same scale it’s fine. But if someone is using a model that’s nothing like the thing it’s supposed to be or just using rocks then it kind of ruins the point of an immersive tabletop game. Gameplay is probably most important but I like seeing what I’m fighting against
I don't think that's small of a base change would be a big deal. Usually we discuss the incorrect size bases as being a problem if you decide to put grots on 40 mm bases, etc. and honestly slightly bigger bases do allow for more detail.
This is something I've been worried about, I started making a Creations of Bile army a few months back so I figured with the nature of what Creations of Bile is (spliced together monsters) I should kitbash the hell out of everything. So now I have 6 rat ogres with admech weapons attached as obliterators & a pair or brood terrors with mechanical claws & giant chainswords as wardog karnivores lol. I think i'll be ok with those but I do want to do a straight no conversions proxy too which i'm not as sure about, I want to use the new malstrain genestealers from necromunda as possessed, it feels more appropriate for bile imo compared to space marines with daemons in them etc.
The point about lazyness is true. Honestly, if someone would go with printed paper "miniatures", I wouldn't mind. I totally agree with the stones painted like a space marine. Yes, you could just buy basic miniatures for children. But paint them, even with poor painting skills and cheap paint, at least if you're playing not just with your friends, but with other players. Also, I went into the hobby in the end 1990-2000's. I could buy only one or two miniatures with my pocket money, and in this time period, you "had to" got at least 1000 army points to begin to play. Whole army. Well, it just took months and years. But the process was also enjoyable. I know that in this period, everything has to go fast, be immediate, but a big part of the hobby is time consuming. The satisfaction of finishing a unit, an army, even a character. The ones that only stick to lazy proxies can't understand, so the others can't rely on it.
Coming from competitive commander, as long as we both make sure we know what each other has, I have no issue. I've PAYED to test stuff and let me tell you that is a terrible mistake. Proxy for meta is 100% ok in my opinion.
I use old Lictors because I have old Lictors and don't feel like buying 3 new ones for nearly $200. But the new ones are so big it's kind of impractical to use the old ones.
I currently only have one proxy and that’s for my Hospitaller. I use the Aveline mini. It was cause I had that mini before I fully got into sisters and I just got a Castigator so my Hospitaller is probably my next buy
i once new sombody who just printed models on paper so it was a birds eye view of each model so it was the right size and then you could see what it was ment to be and then slowly when they bought models the just replaced 2d with 3d
I'm very pro proxy as long as there is some blend of creativity and effort put in. Totally agree that a box painted as a land raider would actually be kind of rad.
I saw a guy use an old school 6 dollar bag of plastic army men once. Even quickly painted a red bandana on their heads so he could call them Catachans. lol
i mean honestly if they're painted and put on the bases then they'd be fine if you ask me
A buddy of mine let me proxy a gundam As a titan
Toy Story: The Grimdark Years.
@@KwadDamyj In the grimdark future of the 41st millenium, there is only Andy
If i want to use my 3 year old as a warlord titan i should be able to.
What do you mean he's eating the models? That's lore accurate.
Timmy is gonna be a great ork Stompa.
"Look, I don't have 250 elven archers. BUT! I do have 100 Elven archers, 50 dark elves archers and 100 spare base plates. So lets do this"
I don't have 100 chaos infantry. But I do have 100 termagants with the same bases size. Let's dance.
“I may not have that particular tank, but this small milk carton is roughly the same size. Your move”
I don’t have 100x 25mm bases but I do have the power of imagination. Let’s rock!
@@nathanielhurley3960"Uhh, its just warp mutations.... Look, Tzeentch was REALLY into Tyranids today."
Once played against a guy who printed his entire guard army. Like, inkjet. Bases were correct size, Paper was cut out to appropriate height. Dude even had construction paper tanks and Chimera. The guardsman were just paper glued to popsicle sticks on basese. Started our game with "Hey man, I apologize that they're paper. I can't afford the army without play testing it first." Guy was a pleasure to play with and respected the fact that some people dont like proxies.
They were the most inspired and incredible proxies I had ever seen. The whole game club let him use them for a while and he ended up making a Valykrie (everything was 100% dimensionally accurate) shortly before he started buying.
As a kid we used paper standees all the time for games.
@@Dram1984 that i could see but the papercraft vehicles were next level
I think we as players are more forgiving when it comes to "Can I proxy X for Y in this game so I can decide if I want to buy appropriate models and spend all the time to paint them?"
I would 100% play against him in this case! What a legend
i would be ok with this as a one off, but i dont see my self playing a 2nd round.
1.Right size
2.Identifiable and distinct
3.Sportsmanship
Case and point: the issue of white dwarf where they showed you how to make a hovertank out of a shampoo bottle.
I believe there was another White Dwarf that shows how to make a Land Speeder out of a washing up bottle.
Deodorant stick. And it was in the Rogue Trader rulebook. It did return in White Dwarf, even the Vehicle Design Rules use it as an example😂
@kenupton4084 I joined WH around the time the article was published in the white dwarf.
Loved it. The vehicle design rules were terribly broken.
You remember the edition that had the flat cardboard tokens for representing ork dreadnaughts? Loved them to bits!!
It's "case _in_ point", FYI, but yeah, those articles were great; you don't get stuff like that in this era of expensive boxes of cast-plastic terrain...
@@GiraffeCrab Yeah, the vehicle design rules were broken to heck, but they gave you the tools to try something different, and I loved that.
as long as i can understand what they represent on the table i’m good with ppl using proxy even if Cheetos are used
If food is used the rule is if it dies it gets eaten.
@Dram1984 it's a powerful tool of psychological warfare. "Not only will I defeat your army, I will also turn it into poop."
I like to use puddles of water as my miniature proxies
Same. As long as you are consistent and don't BS me, I don't care if you use sticky notes attached to bases.
There are two kinds of players.
One wants to play the game so they need some kind of minitures to use and dont care to much how they look.
The other one wants to build and paint the minitures and then just play the game to use and show them.
The Mickey Mouse army sound fun.
i wish i could have seen it
- its clear what they are
- its clear what equipment they have
- as close to the original scale/size
- the correct base size
If all these are ticked, i have no issues playing against proxy models
I'm flexible on base size if the conversion is old, and it matches an older base size used at the time. Want to use your Void Viridian Commando missile team you glued to a 60mm base? Sure, why not?
Using a garden gnome as a Mortarion proxy
Great Unclean One Shirley?
@@foreshame7370YES, great unclean one! and don't call me Shirley...lol
The craziest proxy I did was with my friend. I was running late and I found out the carry trays in my box had slipped sideways and crushed my Junith Eruita. I didn't have time to repair her and immediately drive to the store hoping the glue would be enough.
Luckily, I had just bought my first Amiibo and I got an idea.
Ironically, Princess Peach was on a 50mm base and approximately the same dimensions.
So I played with a 15ft tall princess against some 8ft Space Marines. XD
That's amazing! 😂
As long as I understand what you're trying to do, I'm usually okay with most things. Granted, I am not a hyper-competitive type of player. Because of cash restrictions I've had to use paper cutout proxies before.
I think it's a question of honor
If you want to test a unit and want to use a paper model before you commit, and ask about it beforehand, that's honorable. If you have taken the time to hand-pick a 3D model which matches the theme of your army, and painted it, that's honorable. If you have lovingly kitbashed an entire army of rat Imperial Guards, that's honorable as well and I can accept your silly Mickey Mouse proxy (Though it would be preferable if you found one in scale and made it all grimdark - I can handle a meme but you gotta OWN that meme)
But if it's clear you are doing this simply because it's cheap - Say dropping some unmodified gunpla on the field and calling them Imperial Knights - That's when it gets dishonorable. I'd be fine with someone chasing a meta list as it emerges just to see how it runs, but if they are doing that every week then it gets really silly and not so honorable.
I think the core question of proxying is like... "Is this respectful to the game?" The same action can be honorable or dishonorable depending on circumstance, with that in mind
I'd like this again if I could. Being respectful to the expected immersion level of your opponent, and them in kind, is the most important part of the hobby.
Are you a Klingon?
I would love to play vs someone with a Gunpla Imperial Knights army.
@@chriswalls6275Best I can do is a Union Flag and GN-X (both from Gundam 00)
I think the only thing that matters is "I can tell what I am shooting"
You cant roll up with some green army men and expect me to know this is a that and this one has Combat B.A.T Launcher upgrade?! 😂
I mean Green Army Men do have different weapons lol, so if one had an RPG I could tell, but I get your point.
In the end: anything can be a proxy as long as all players aggree on it.
"what proxies should be allowed?" It's a board game for fun. This is the year 2025. I have a good job but I'll be damned before I blow all my money on toy soldiers that could be discontinued tomorrow. Proxy anything and everything
I once played against a guy who was not ok with my collourscheme being wrong.... well saying we played is an overstatement since he refused to play against my space marines that i had painted with deathguard green and baltazar gold. Mind you, it was real good looking and had only the standard kit pieces.
What even was the "correct" colour scheme?
@onyxlore5277 probably only loylist schemes. He didnt elaborate much other than "if you are gonna use those paints then you should play deathguard".
Inventing your own colour scheme is literally in the rules. Stupid people be stupid.
@@mariosskordos9177 i could have understood if i had plopped down some actual plague marines. But when it comes to painjobs i could have gone full black legion and it shouldnt matter.
@@emilvennerberg4927 GW has made it clear that colours don't matter and carry no rules burden. I already hate rules sharks as it is, but this takes stupidity to a whole new level.
I remember hitting a local store for some games and a guy had a full ork bike squad that was on Lego horses. Kinda strange but he glued Orks and the weapons on them so I didn’t mind them
Probably the most egregious - but maybe most excusable - form of proxies happens in large points games with super heavy models.
When I was a single guy, I bought a full on authentic Forgeworld Chaos Warhound titan with some tax return money. My brother - who was excited to play against it - invited me over to his house to play a massive apocalypse game about a year later. He lived over 2 hours away at the time so when I arrived I just simply packed in for the night. He asked if he could take my titan to his craft room to look it over. I said sure and went to bed.
The next morning we started setting up and he runs upstairs and comes back down with a completely Styrofoam and cardboard Lucious Pattern Warhound titan. He had carved it out with a wire knife the night before, and glued it together with a hot glue gun. Except his titan was armed with dual twin laser destructors - as opposed to my Vulcan Mega Bolter and Plasma Blastgun. He got first turn and in 45 minutes my super heavies were smoldering ruins, and I had nothing to counter him. I was pretty chafed by this and called the game - which made him mad... but hey what are brothers for?
On more than one occasion, I saw guys show up with sandbox pails and say they were Ork Gargants. One time I saw a guy bring a 12" Starship Trooper warrior bug to a game and said it was a Hierophant Bio-Titan. And then there was the Baneblade G.I. Joe tank.
Do you think these crossed the lines of acceptability? It's hard to say... 'official' models for some of these are expensive or just don't exist.
The real tragedy of the Mouse army is the missed opportunity for some excellent character models.
It helps if the bad proxies have a prominent label on the leader base or otherwise with the unit that says what they are. So at least you can tell by reading the label.
We used soda cans as proxies in One Page Rules and OPR.... And it's fantastic!
There should be no limit cause it's a game of toy soldiers.
At that point why bother using a rule set? If the models are so trivial then wouldn't it just be as "enjoyable" as pushing them around in the sandbox and saying "pew pew I got you!"
"Oh its just toy soliders, none of it matter" Ok then go play Toy Soldiers. I play Warhammer for Spectacle and narrative. Not so some Hobbylet can bring his greytide and ww2 shermans that he calls russes to the table and have me questioning what it what all game.
@sheevpalpatine9532 you are self-deception doesn't change a fact it's toy soldiers. Outside of a tournament, you can use ANYTHING to represent those toy soldiers. And if anything tournaments is where everyone should use proxies because that way it is still rather than your typical pay to win mindset a WAAC player.
@ You're an actual idiot. Comp players and WAAC players are the kind of people to do the exact thing you're on about. People like myself who play for the narrative and the story want to play with consistent models and themes that match the setting. You're a tourist and are showing bad ediquette to your opponent and the community if you have such little respect that you would field random trash and call it something else. Call it toy soldiers all you want but I'd like to see you go into a game of Yugioh and take pokemon cards and go "Lol its just pieces of sqaure paper, I can use whatever I want"
Ah sweet, hey you do you and have fun playing with your buddies who are okay with that. I'm gonna go over there and play the way I wanna play.
Meanwhile Battletech is like "yeah just use some cardboard cutouts"
I got a completely 3d printed guard army. Mostly so I can field my favorite regiment the Valhallan ice warriors. The only thing out of scale I my catachans who are about 10% bigger than the rest of them but that’s to make them lore accurate.
I've only played 1 game of 40k 20 years ago but I've always been interested in it for the gameplay and the setting.
Now I want to make an Army Men Ultra Marines army for the lulz
So I like 3d printing, but base sizes, scale and weapons being WYSIWYG is important to me. IE. I am working on a goblin army, but I'm using garden gnomes with the correct weapons and scale, because it's funnier. Shoutout to Warp Miniatures.
Sounds pretty cool!
I started playing out when i was 13 playing 40k at my local game store, having only played with my older brother until then, and of course, being that young i couldn't really afford the miniatures. But, i had a lot of different toys and things I used that i converted to work. For a predator proxy, I used a plastic army men tank that i had crudely painted up, and with a little super glue i had glued some g.i.joe guns to the sides as sponsons For my rhino, I used another army men tank that had a broken turret gun that i just glued more g.i.joe guns on the top to be the pintle mount bolter. I used a bunch of relatively small sized toys for space marines. like the kind you got in vending machines. I had devastators that were some kind of little robots i had gotten, regular marines that were toy soldiers, all painted up and had stuff glued on to be weapons when needed. Eventually i was able to start getting proper miniatures and replaced the things in that army, but folks were pretty cool with me about it, and even taught me how to paint and kitbash as I got real miniatures to use. I might not be where i am with the hobby now if it wasn't for those guys.
You can use those green plastic men from the toy store as WH40K Imperial Guardsmen.
As long as they're a similar scale I wouldn't mind, but those green army toys tend to be huge so you'd be at a disadvantage when it comes to cover and stuff
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33I don't know what army men you came across but most are roughly the same size as a guardsman.
Even better if you paint them
The Mickey Mouse laugh was on point. 😂
😄😄
If that player had used the Mickey voice the entire game it might have made it worth it. Or maybe not.
I have an entire BT army that is stormcast with backpacks. Nobody has ever complained.
I have 140 "Blood Angels" that are converted Stormcast. Every one in the army is a conversion. Stormcast body, squad accurate arms/weapons, venerable dreadnought head, and mk3 marine backpack. Terminators are converted Stormcast Annihilators.
Me and a friend , we play mutant chronicles warzone and WH40K.
We use Warzone minis as proxies often and the same with WH40k minis because both are close to the Setting of the game.
But we set our own houserules when we play WH40K and Warzone so that we dont confuse us with the armies .
Cadians are perfect for capitol-soldiers , Spacemarines for bauhaus-units and so on and vice versa .
Skaven guard: Cool. Disney guard... I mean, plonking Mickey on the table and calling it a day isn't okay, but with a bit of hobby work, I think there's something there. Donald, grizzled and covered with scars, holding the line and wielding a bolt pistol to ensure the triplets don't break and run - Dale range-finding for Chip, who aims a long-las at a distant foe, while the pair take cover in a bombed out ruin - Goofy, raising his head from the corpse of his last kill, blood dripping from his teeth - and overhead, Launchpad desperately avoids clouds of anti-air fire as he tries to deliver another squad to the front lines. Probably not the easiest project in the world, but it could definitely be interesting.
Hey my dude, at least the Mickey Mouse guy gave you a memorable game ✌️
TRUE! Haha
And let’s be real here, who doesn’t love a mutant rat army? 🐀🐀🐀
Micky Mouse as a Commisar is funny NGL, I get the scaling issue though and I understand the issue for immersion though. As for competitive proxying, that's why I feel that Wargames being treated as a competitive hobby is a mistake IMO, and proxying models as a whole different army is a bridge too far IMO lmao.
I'm working on a land raider for grey knights out of a cardboard box and I'm getting the real troops and I made the proxy to be more realistic so it can actually transport them in side I used the real dimensions 6L x 4W and used my death guard plague marines for hight scale
Where I'm from we have a friend we call apple boy, since he became popular for proxying a C'tan with an apple. And that was just the beginning...
MaC'tantosh
I once had a game against an Eldar army where none of the vehicle had weapons modelled. And it was a vehicle heavy army list. None of them. In the list, all vehicles had different weapon loadouts. As the game developed, the non-existing weapons received the ability to morph into whatever was required at that time. Never again.
I don't mind people proxying units if they want to give a unit a try, and don't want to commit to the official models. I get it, "some companies" are ridiculously expensive, and not everybody has got the disposable income. But don't take advantage of the goodwill of your opponent, or you will find yourself hard-pressed to find any opponent willing to play against you.
Proxies are okay if they don’t break immersion. lol most people don’t want to think like that because it places their grey models on the same level as the tissue box land raider.
I think there needs to be another category: 3rd party proxy. I HATE the moon buggy look of Votann vehicles, so I converted tanks from Mantic's Forge Father line.
For friendly games I use the necromunda gene stealers, i have the normal ones but i prefer the look of the necromunda ones.
That's barely a proxy.
As long as they are on the current 32mm bases no tournament organizer will object, even GW has to admit that it's a legit GW model of a genestealer
@@Darkshadow64540 What about 20 year old genestealers on 25 mm bases? Or 3rd edition Space Hulk genestealers with no bases at all? Will you throw a tantrum because a old school gamer in his 40's won't rebases his stuff because he only plays casually and doesn't intend to take part in tournaments?
@sleeplessknight99 you notice I specifically mentioned tournament organizers, casual games are a lot more forgiving. I only JUST got around to rebasing my genestealers on 32mm, it's actually a massive quality of life upgrade because the old models had horrid balance
Yeah, the mickey and millie seem uncool. How fun would it have been if he had painted up the correct minis in the Mickey and Minnie colors?
For my friends, so long as you declare what your models is before hand and the size is roughly correct. Additionally our proxies are also warhammer models units, some are estyborn, but they look like they fit.
It depends really on context, as you suggest. So many variables as to what's ok and not ok and that line can change for every player.
for carnifex as a screamer killer, in 9th it was a equipment option on the same kit so imo its a reasonable proxy (assuming you're not also running carnifexes)
Yeah you're right about that, maybe not the best example although screamer Killers do have their own models now.
My First Experience in Tabletop was with BattleTech. We used Dice as Proxies and wrote down wich Number represented wich model and gave the list to the opponent so he knew exactly wich is wich. So we could test out wich Mechs would fit best our own playstyle before buying the models from our very thight pocketmoney. Nowadays I do sometimes proxy Models as sth else before buying the model too, but most I use sth wich is completely out of place (with right base size) so it is not confusing with another troop (although it breaks the immersion).
I’ve got a proxy Necron Monolith that I use occasionally, but it’s very obviously a monolith. It’s made from cardboard and hot glue, and I’ve painted it to fit the part. And every time I’ve used it my opponent has complimented my craftsmanship. That’s the sort of poorhammer proxy I want to play against.
Currently putting together a cardboard Gauss Pylon similarly
Personally, if something is correct size (meaby even base itself if system is not considering model itself in measurments) and does not add mental labor for your opponent (like remembering something not obvious - ex red Carnifex is Screamakilla, but blue Carnifex is Carnifex), then it is ok.
Ork players get a pass for kitbashing because it’s a central theme for the army. I have a Goliath and rhino Kitbashed into trukks but I bought actual trukk kits to use the peices for the wrecking ball and Big shoots. The Goliath is a little smaller than the actual trukk, but the old metal trukk model, which is still tournament legal, is smaller than a Goliath. Also, at one point, we had a paper model for the dreadnaught that is still tournament legal.
I’m making a squiggoth out of a HTTYD toy right now, and I agree kit bashing is essential to the ork play style and generally a major part of the Orkz general design.
It was specifically a cardboard killa can in that starter set
@@Darkshadow64540 I’m specifically referring to the second edition starter set dreadnaught. Though it very obviously depicts what we would today call a deff dread, the box declared it as a dreadnaught.
@double5175 I'm referring to the same model, under modern naming it's a killa kan
WYSIWYG isn't a worry for me in 40k. I only care that it's proper scale and base, and it's easy to tell what it's supposed to be.
If someone has an issue with 3d printing, don't play with that person.
I use a Phobos Librarian as a regular Librarian, because the model was a gift, it’s cool as hell and I will be damned if I spend 40 dollars on another miniature that’s basically the same thing, just so I could use it with my standard infinity squads.
"Culture shouldn't exist only for those who can afford it" - A wise man
Thoughts on using a centurion devastator as a proxy for an oblitorater
Close enough, I say.
just started the video and had to say. Your thumbnail is how magic plays now. 😂
My friends and I prefer to use generic game pieces (such as colored plastic pawns) as our proxies. That way we can have any army for any game that we wish.
I fully support this method. I have playtested whole wargames with empty bases with pieces of paper glued on saying what they are.
We used to print out standees for a lot of stuff.
Back in the day, around 5th edition, I got a couple local kids interested in the hobby. The only "real" models they used were ones I gave them, bits-box conversions I found at the flgs (actually not so local, as it's 70 miles away), used lots I found on ebay, and whatever they could make from my extensive sprue pile. I used my printer to print off 2D marine cuttouts to put into slotted bases. One kid played Orks, and made a darn impressive looted Basilisk using an army man tank, a ballpoint pen and some plasticard.
My only requirement is general shape and base size. A heavy weapon should look heavy, but I don’t care if it’s a grav-Cannon, Lascannon, or Meltagun. I don’t know what they do anyways.
For me to far is if we use food or drinks like coke bottles as proxy. I mean I know not everyone can go WYSIWYG on their weapons Loadout and that's fine aslong as I know what their unit Loadout is it's fine. 3D prints have become really good these days so I am fine as well but bottles and cans as X unit? Nah thanks that's not fine
In 5th-7th ed 40K, I played a Guard army based on brood brothers (GSC hadn't had rules since 2nd) complete with hybrids for squad leaders and vet units. I once had some kid tell me I had to use GW models to play GW games. That's when the tournament organizer told my opponent that my models were older than he was. Never had any issues with my army since.
Things got messy when GW decided to make GSC a real army again and I had to remove all my hybrids from the Guard army to make a separate detachment.
As long as the proxy is close in size, and you have your army list made, so i can see the weapons you picked, I do not care what the proxy is.
As a historical gamer I'm OK if a unit is proxed by a similar unit, for instance we are playing a battle where the Ebla Landweh fought and you use Westphalian landwehr. Because we don't have time to paint everything. Same goes if you substitute a unit with a one thats close like uhlans with lancers or you dont have minis for the british foot guard so you give a regular infantry some sort of token that I can see and you tell me what that means. Where I draw the line is with goofy paintjobs like hello kitty regiments. I mean I will play once with you but I'm not gonna feel like comming back or be excited. Also is you proxy something which is totally different from what you put one the table- like using infantry with muskets as infantry with rifles.
I fully get not wanting to play vs hello kitty with your WW1 British infantry, but.. is historical war gaming not always been a little different then fantasy wargaming? Your stuff is very based on real world stuff so i get it fully, that's why i dont do historical war gaming. But i have a wizard elf who is riding a dragon getting ready to cast magic and summon griffins to the battle. Or a super strong future solder using physic powers to pew pew pew the space bug as a space elf does.. space elf things.. I think the question for proxies come down less of is it ok and more " what are you trying to do?" if youre just looking to have fun go have fun. If you looking to have a battle between 2 factions taking place in X war.. then yeah, proxies may seem very out of place. Not all war gaming is the game, not all games and gamers are the same.
To me as long as you don’t have to consistently ask what it’s supposed to be
Wargames can be mentally taxing but are also fun!
So in my book, the line is a simply balance of of does it make the harder to play, or more fun?
Because having to remember your own rules is one thing, but often the added mental gymnastics of remembering that 'this' is actually 'this', and 'that' is actually 'that' has left me feeling as though I'm playing with a disadvantage. (Now, while I'm not too bothered about actually winning it do feel like I should at least have a fair crack). And yet, the chance to fight or use a titan (or other equally epic model) is something I always relish, even if it's made from cerial boxes!
Personally I like to have little stories around why I’m fighting this particular army. So as long as it’s a model I’m ok with it, but I don’t like using blank bases or other things as proxies.
Needs to be a similar size and shape to make sure there’s no advantages or disadvantages due to line of sight rules
I deffiantly agree with the whole function thing, at least has to have distinguishable weaponry, and accurate base/vehicle sizes. As long as you have that, I'll believe your zombies are poxwalkers
Great video mate, really enjoyed it.
Thank you for watching!
While I don't proxie anymore as I now have a job that gives me the spare funds to afford models. In some cases I do find it more fun to do certain things. I play high elves in fantasy/old world. Well I had recently watched dungeon meshi and saw chimera Falin. (She fuses with a red dragon and angelic white wings and feathers, she looks so cool) so I found an STL file for her, scaled it to the appropriate size to fit on a base. And I sometimes use her as an elf archmage on a red dragon. None of my friends have seen a problem with it. High elves for old world don't have a model range yet. And Sigmar elves are scaled up to fit into the newer base sizes used in the game. So all my elves are 3d printed until the high elves army comes out officially and I can buy models for it.
Personally, I wouldn't be cool with the werewolf troggoths because werewolves are already an existing subfaction within the Soulblight Gravelords. Its not even the right Grand Alliance
You're right, but to be fair this was several years ago before they introduced The cursed City models.
I had to borrow my friends world eaters rhino and use that instead of my impulsors after a kid bumped into me and i smashed it on the table. My opponent was just laughing as he nova cannoned it with his big knight
I will say in regards to your example for "Bad" proxies, If someone want's to proxy all of one unit into another of equal size that they don't have as means of seeing if they like the unit before investing potentially hundreds of dollars, I don't see that as bad. As long as everything is stated beforehand and they're not trying to make it confusing I'd be fine with that.
Me and my uncle wanted to get into kill team… so we used dice as proxies, D6 being a basic warrior D20 being heavy, etc… We have switched to 3D printing now (we’re poor lol)
proxies are fine as long as 1, they're not for official tournaments, it's clear that Games Workshop sells miniatures and wants you to use their miniatures in your tournaments and 2, both players are aware that these are not official miniatures, they agree with it and they know what miniature each proxies represent (making a list with a picture next to what each unofficial miniature is supposed to be as a reference for the player you're playing against adds a lot of points) if both conditions are met, go ahead and play with proxies all you want, in fact, I encourage using cardboard boxes of equivalent size to represent a tank/rhino or any vehicle and test how it handles on the battlefield before buying that same vehicle in physical form. to be sure you like it and it performs well, or any equivalent sized miniature to test infantry units and see how good they are or how fun they are before buying, we know that miniatures are expensive, and if you bring me 20 wine corks and tell me that I'm 20 Cadians I'm not going to complain as long as it shows which are the sergeants, I have played games against tea boxes that were actually Ork vehicles or Tyranid bioforms, but always making it clear which is a proxy for which miniature, on the other hand, unofficial Games Workshop miniatures are miniatures and, although many of them can be considered piracy by infringing intellectual property, which is horrible, if you want to grab the futuristic Soviet tank from x brand and use it as a Leman Rush in your games to give more variety to your army, or the AT-ST walker and use it as a sentinel or anything like that, as long as it has base size, and everything is correct it seems fine to me, I play Orks and if I take 3 units of 20 gretchins or boyz I don't want them all to be the same and obviously I'm going to sneak in some "space goblin or orc from x or y brand because it looks epic and that way I don't have them all the same" miniatures anyway, if you're going to a tournament, always talk to the organization beforehand, tell them which units are proxies or kitbashed and bring an official miniature of that same unit that you want to exchange in case your opponent doesn't feel comfortable playing with unofficial miniatures, you play with him with a 100% workshop army, as a general rule, people don't usually have problems with kitbash, I have 2 warboss, one is made from a meganoble and the other from a chaos terminator and I've never had problems taking them to official tournaments, but the gretchins/boyz and unofficial vehicles have given me problems in tournaments, and I usually take the official version of each vehicle because even though they've told me beforehand that there was no problem, sometimes I've arrived to have the judge tell me that I can't play with that miniature because it doesn't exactly correspond to any official miniature and it was "pirate" when you can't call "pirate" something that doesn't infringe any intellectual property law or because of the matter of the measurements, and that I usually look for miniatures slightly larger than the official ones so as not to have any unfair advantage and that on the contrary, they suppose a disadvantage for me in case of playing against someone, so in case they tell me that I can't use it, I use the games workshop version and play with 3 identical trucks or 60 clone gretchins without any grace... in any case always keep in mind that in essence this is a game and the main thing is to have fun, one plays Warhammer to have a good time, and most don't participate in the competitive scene, if you're not in a tournament, be more permissive with your rival in what he carries as a miniature without worrying about whether it's a piece of cardboard or a miniature whether it's official or games workshop, not everyone has the same resources and the miniatures are expensive, let him test them based on proxies to see if he should buy them or not, or what Play with proxies in case you can't or don't want to spend your money on figurines, remember the price of each box and the huge expense that it represents for many households to buy an army that they don't know if they'll like or not, their way of playing it
I rarely ever use proxies that arent alternate models. For example, using a Krieg command squad as a regular command squad or even (for one game) using 5 Aggressors as 5 terminators (40mm base, fists, two bolt barrels).
However, im not entirely opposed to more "drastic" stand-ins like using a demon prince as a dreadnought or the example of Werewolves as Trolls.
I do remember having a bad experience where i lost a game vecause i was actively avoiding a demon prince that was actually just a chaos lieutenant.
The only time my friends and i used terrible proxies was when were testing army lists before making purchases for Warhammer Fantasy Battles. We had plenty of models of the correct height and base size to show scale and we cut the units out of graph paper. So if we needed line of sight we could put a handful of models on our paper armies and take a look.
It was really easy to set up and play, we just crossed out the squares in the units as the models died off. Lots of Dwarves vs Tomb Kings battles.
So long as I can easily tell what is being used and the base sizes are right I think it's fine. So long as I can look at what you've got and tell what they are, go ahead.
I think we overestimate our opponent's familiarity with our own army which often doesn't cause a fuss when like an archer is an archer, but in 40K even when I don't procy there's confusion because of how similar in style alot of units I have can be, like I often get asked which unit is Chosen and Legionaires in CSM so much that the Chosen now have a dedicated banner for easy visual reference.
If the confusion happens anyway even with clear communication and official models, that's not a complaint that can be made against proxies IMO.
I once had a guy upset I used 30k Minis for my Risen/Fallen Dark Angels, even though I played every unit with 40k Loadouts as 40k units...my Deimos Pred? Pred Destructor, Deimos Vindicator? Vindicator. Tacticals? Tacticals.
Dude was still vehement, only DEBATABLE unit I play is a kitbashed Techmarine which is a MkIII Marine with Bits from a Techpriest Enginseer and a Primaris Sternguard Vet Combi Weapon.
Which is funny since they didn't mind my Legends models (Contemptor and Leviathan Dread, which both were too different for me to argue them as Castra Ferrum Dreads)
As newer players my brother and I will use a proxy to test out how certain models or units play before we drop the cash on them. Or especially if it’s a casual game it’s like this time I wanna run my warboss as Mr.Thraka just for fun. It largely depends on who you play with and where you play imo but definitely in a more professional or competitive game I think there are certain standards expected and that’s fair.
Rule of cool is never to far
This video has random opinions but im here for it
my proxies are always " so my army is a custom chapter/ regiment/ clan so I'm using kitbashed stuff" or " hey the modern ork boys kit sucks all of the basic boys are sluggas and choppas and this cuz I ain't buying another monopose boyz kit cuz thats lame" only time I'm ever not ok with proxies is when it's clearly done for advantage, overly confusing or fully immersion breaking
Honestly if it gets them playing the game I couldn't care about proxies xD
Great video. I'm all for proxies, but for me, you have to use miniatures that scale properly. 3d printing is fantastic and cheaper in many ways, so no problem there. In fact, I find 3d prints look better than the originals.
How do u feel about people who create new types of armies with lore and such?
man, was hoping he'd mention how they accounted for the 'illegal' size of those mickey figures during the match. The loss of immersion is one thing but, where is base to base contact?
one of the reasons i quit warhammer a few years ago is the snobbery regarding proxying in my local area.
Im sad to see this in our hobby, it never used to be that way at the start and then out side of 30k it was never like that.
Problem with the example of "Good proxies" is they're far and few between. I have a 3d printer and love Warhammer, I'll make sure my stuff is scaled and painted correctly and look as close as possible to what it should be. I feel like I'm the edge case at my LGS. Most people print our whatever they want at whatever scale, don't bother to paint or even give it the correct or similar weapon options then act entitled as if they deserve games because they put in the minimum effort.
Take the tissue box, ruler, pritt stick & scissors make a correct size & shape landraider, paint it a little and you're all good.
For me personally as long as you can tell what the model is supposed to be and it’s around the same scale it’s fine. But if someone is using a model that’s nothing like the thing it’s supposed to be or just using rocks then it kind of ruins the point of an immersive tabletop game. Gameplay is probably most important but I like seeing what I’m fighting against
My friend is going to 3d print a rhino (the animal) and paint it as an ultra marines rhino (he has the money but the real model looks like ass)
What do you think about someone like me who likes making nice bases and won't put troops on 25mm bases I always make them 32mm for detail
I don't think that's small of a base change would be a big deal. Usually we discuss the incorrect size bases as being a problem if you decide to put grots on 40 mm bases, etc. and honestly slightly bigger bases do allow for more detail.
This is something I've been worried about, I started making a Creations of Bile army a few months back so I figured with the nature of what Creations of Bile is (spliced together monsters) I should kitbash the hell out of everything.
So now I have 6 rat ogres with admech weapons attached as obliterators & a pair or brood terrors with mechanical claws & giant chainswords as wardog karnivores lol.
I think i'll be ok with those but I do want to do a straight no conversions proxy too which i'm not as sure about, I want to use the new malstrain genestealers from necromunda as possessed, it feels more appropriate for bile imo compared to space marines with daemons in them etc.
I play the game for the miniatures, if you don’t have cool miniatures it’s a bit insulting to play against.
The point about lazyness is true. Honestly, if someone would go with printed paper "miniatures", I wouldn't mind. I totally agree with the stones painted like a space marine.
Yes, you could just buy basic miniatures for children. But paint them, even with poor painting skills and cheap paint, at least if you're playing not just with your friends, but with other players.
Also, I went into the hobby in the end 1990-2000's. I could buy only one or two miniatures with my pocket money, and in this time period, you "had to" got at least 1000 army points to begin to play. Whole army. Well, it just took months and years. But the process was also enjoyable.
I know that in this period, everything has to go fast, be immediate, but a big part of the hobby is time consuming. The satisfaction of finishing a unit, an army, even a character.
The ones that only stick to lazy proxies can't understand, so the others can't rely on it.
If size and equipment are correct, I'd have no issue with playing against Mickey Mouse. I think it's awesome if people do their own thing.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
If you wanna play with an entire proxy army I will shake your hand and congratulate you on your wise financial decisions.
I'm with you on your lines of acceptance
I just use the old lady's rubber willies and write the unit name on it with Cheez Wiz. I use the correct base sizes so I'm good.
Coming from competitive commander, as long as we both make sure we know what each other has, I have no issue. I've PAYED to test stuff and let me tell you that is a terrible mistake. Proxy for meta is 100% ok in my opinion.
I use old Lictors because I have old Lictors and don't feel like buying 3 new ones for nearly $200. But the new ones are so big it's kind of impractical to use the old ones.
Just use the old ones and rebase them if you need to.
I currently only have one proxy and that’s for my Hospitaller. I use the Aveline mini. It was cause I had that mini before I fully got into sisters and I just got a Castigator so my Hospitaller is probably my next buy
i once new sombody who just printed models on paper so it was a birds eye view of each model so it was the right size and then you could see what it was ment to be and then slowly when they bought models the just replaced 2d with 3d
Doesn't everything measure off the base? Could you show up with a stack of printed POGs and play a game like that?
I'm very pro proxy as long as there is some blend of creativity and effort put in. Totally agree that a box painted as a land raider would actually be kind of rad.