@@troys5716 All materials have their good and bad points. Being a career fisherman I’ve worked steel, ALUMINIUM and fibreglass boats so know all their foible’s, and one thing u can do with an ally hull is TIG a new section in, to replace the old. Fibreglass on the other hand is a whole different ball game, and having repaired a fibreglass trawler, I know which I’d rather repair. Still it’s not our problem, it’s this poor couple’s nightmare. Let’s hope it can be resolved quickly with as less stress as possible ✌️&❤️🇬🇧👍
Hey guys Sailing Aurora repaired their Hanse after a hard grounding and cracked girder - damage looked similar to yours. Perhaps he has some advice about what it takes to get a damage like this repaired. Whom to talk to. Good luck.
Watching another channel, I would assume you grind 6 inches to a foot on each side of the damaged area. Lay in three or four layers of progressively wider strips of fiberglass and epoxy a lot of strength and all the epoxy bonding into the old structure will secure the crack. The big problem is getting everything out of the way, if you see the crack on the outside, you could repair that also in the same method, the people I saw working on a boat were doing it in a controlled environment as you need optimum temperatures to cure the fiberglass and epoxy resin. I think the space they were renting cost hundreds per day and even doubled, when the landlord decided he had more demand for the space.
I'm a naval architect. To cool you down, it is repairable. But the salon will have to be completely dismounted. Don't do anything yourself, it is clearly a yard failure. If you do anything yourself, the yard might say that you made the damage when dismounting. Contact your insurance and if any possible get an certified surveyor. Not a boatbuilder, a certified surveyor is needed. The damage is huge indeed and there will most probably be more cracks than are visible now.
As an amateur boat builder (46' ketch) and Insurance Co risk manager I feel the above advice is 101% SPOT ON CORRECT. Good luck, don't give up, it will all work out in the end.
as a guy with zero experience I can say the advice offered here seems correct. Definitely the part where you don't move forward and have the yard claim you caused it. This is heart breaking but becomes a chess board now. Good luck.
Great advice! By my eye, the failure is a disbond between the hull and the composite rib that carries the keel loads up. It is possible that the disbond is a secondary problem, and the rib itself has been flexed but not actually damaged, the crack might be just between the hull and the rib bond line, . It is clearly yard damage from the mishandling. Much more inspection is needed, as the great comment above says. Also, don't listen to the comments about "blue water" fitness, after a good inspection, you will know much more. I also do not think you should sign anything with a lawyer, it might not b necessary if the insurance company does its job, and also might take repair money away that you will have to replace from savings.
Many viewers may disagree with me, but I think you were fortunate that the keel issues developed ashore rather than at sea. I say this based on 50 years of sailing experience and many miles of blue water sailing. It is my opinion that your boat is not suitable for deep water sailing. Everything about her underbody screams closed course racer not blue water cruiser. The keel posses a real risk at sea for several reason. To get sufficient righting moment the designer or builder choose to have a very deep and narrow keel with all of the ballast hanging in a bulb from the bottom. This gives the maximum benefit of the weight to ratio analysis but places huge loads on the area where the keel attaches to the hull. Because they elected to have a narrow keel, to reduce drag, the footprint where the keel attached to the hull is very short, thus localizing the load. So all the forces are concentrated in a vey small portion of the hull. Imagine striking a partially submerged container or other object while sailing at 9 knots. The forces on the keel/hull joint would be substantial ; in fact enough to tear the keel right off. Please see the tragic case of Cheeki Rafifi). Even a simple grounding could do substantial damage resulting in flooding or possible sinking. The hull on vessels like your are thin by design to reduce weight . However they do not have sufficient strength to support the keel loads. So the builder construct a grid inside the bilge in an attempt to spread the loads. This works until the grid is overloaded, then the grid breaks away from the hull. That is exactly what you have seen in your bilge. Other issues I have with the design, which in my opinion makes it unsuitable for blue war work is the sail drive and the rudder. The hull to drive joint is problematic as there is a gasket between the two which can fail to do either a collision or age. If so the boat is flooded. The rudder is unprotected and if it is struck by a submerged object can break away or shear the rudder post leaving the boat without steerage. I encountered a boat 300 miles from the Azores which had the rudder torn off. They had no choice but to abandon her in mid-Atlantic. In my opinion a proper offshore boat has a keel with internal ballast, a drive shaft which exits the keel and is protected by it, and a rudder on a skeg. True many vessels like yours have crossed oceans but for me the risks are too great and the downside too steep. Repairing the damage will not correct the basic design flaws. My advice is to collect what you can from the insurance carrier and the boatyard and go find a proper sea going yacht. Captain RM Granafei, s/v INUK, Contest 38s
@patandfrankie The previous comment about the problems with boats like this is exactly correct. Unfortunately there is no way young people like you should have known this. So many boats are built like this. The keel, the hull grid, the saildrive, the spade rudder are all Achilles heels and inappropriate for circumnavigators and downwind sailing.
We are grateful for any input and it is always good to listen to different options and make up your own after reflecting. There is always something to learn ..
@@michaelfraser5723 Not If he was only talking to one of them. Oh, and before you say there's still two of them, that doesn't matter as life or lives would be correct.
1st - Call insurance company. 2nd - Insurance company will send an surveyor. 3 - Chances are the insurance company will total out the boat. You get a check and walk away. 4 - If the insurance company does not total out the boat... you need a marine architect/engineer who has dealt with this type of damage before. Then the insurance company will tell you to get estimates for repair. PS - I'm Andy Bogaart from Bogaart Boats and have dealt with this myself on my boat. I hired David Gerr to advise on the process to repair even though I have a lifetime of experience. Hopefully they total it out and you walk away with a check.
@@patandfrankie Andy's advice is excellent. Let the insurance company pay you out, and then they will sue the boatyard to recover their loss, to whatever extent possible. But YOU will be free from the anguish that is inevitable if you continue to own the boat. You will be standing in the middle of an insurer and the yard who both wish to limit their costs. That is not a good place to be. Simplify the process for your mental health - step away from this mess that is not your fault.
Hi guys, I am reading a lot of comments on here which are just ludicrous and rubbish. For starters deal purely with your insurance company, they are the one who will arrange a survey for damage of the boat and ultimately pay for the repairs. They will also chase the boatyard (who appear at fault) for the repair costs. This is why you pay insurance. Yes it will be a big repair and will take some time but it can be repaired to like new. Best advise I can give and I do have some experience in this area is document everything and I mean everything from conversations with the boatyard to calls to the insurance company. Photograph everything. !!!! Don't undertake any work till authorization has been given by the insurance company. If you have coverage that we used to have then emergency accommodation should also be covered. PS get everything in writing or emails. Don't take anyone's word for anything.
I agree as well. Document and work with your insurance company. Make sure they send a surveyor. It’s not a complicated fix per se, bulk head delamination. I am not sure it’s really the boat yards fault either. They should also be insured. Make sure your insurance company works with the boatyard insurance company before undertaking any work. All bills should be taken care of by the insurance company minus any deductible. As other commenters have written, the keel needs to come off. The interior around the bulkheads needs to come out. The gelcoat needs to be removed on both sides to reveal the fiber skin. Sand down to get a good skin overlap. Create a nice epoxy fillet with colloidal silica thickened epoxy. Inject the resin underneath each bulkhead. Put pressure on the outside. Epoxy should squeeze out. Even the fillet before it cures. ( use a very slow hardener). Laminate the inside with great overlap, alternating Matt and structural fiber cloth. Squeeze out any air with a roller and squeezy. Once cured, work on the outside. I recommend reading through material on how to do this work correctly. Correct surface preparation work is essential for a good repair. Get professionals to do the work, but oversee the procedure. I think it could be done in 2-3 weeks max.
I clicked on this while rolling my eyes because so many UA-camrs use such dramatic titles when nothing dramatic happened at all. Unfortunately yours was the exception. Our heart goes out to you. I know how anxiety provoking haul outs can be. It's a difficult time when you are not in control of your boat. I hope you get a settlement from your insurance soon and can again move forward.
It might be wise to be careful with all of the public disclosure of what is going on. The boat yard while possibly at fault will not take kindly to being put under the spotlight in a negligent way which could force their lawyers to issue stop orders on your postings. Let the insurance company do its thing and don't publicize any blame. Especially if this channel is a significant part of your income. Cheers and Good luck. s/v Wild Rover
Thanks for your help! We do not want to spread blame or accuse but try to share it with an analyzing neutral position. It’s definitely not our attempt to talk badly about anyone. This is part of our life which we share and we want to be as mindful as possible while talking about this circumstance.
If by just settling the yacht down it broke the problem is with the design,no way would I go to sea let alone cross the Atlantic in a tub that is so easily broken 😢
When we were in Trinidad we met a couple who's keel had fallen off mid ocean. The boat sank in under 2 minutes. The only think that saved them was the auto inflate life raft. The keel had a crack a few years before and had been repaired at a boat yard. If you decide to fix this boat, get a marine engineer to look at the issue and give you a layup schedule. Don't use eyeball engineering on something this critical. But if crossing oceans is your goal, consider taking the insurance money and buying a boat with a stronger, integrated keel.
The keel & mast having to be removed from your boat will give you a good inspection of the keel bolts and condition of your rig atleast. The repair/reinforcement should go at least 500mm forward and aft of where the keel ends.
Also, if you do repair it, I would add considerable reinforcement to the area. That type of keel is prone to this sort of damage because it has such a small area that it attaches it places a lot of stress on a very small portion of the hull. Especially considering the blue water cruising you are doing, I would not only repair what was there but I would add additional “stringers/bulkheads” to the grid to help spread the load better and mitigate against this in the future. Also use stronger materials in the repair. Dont just use mat and roving, you want to use a biaxial fabric like 1708 which will add considerable strength without adding too much weight.
@@jackdbur yeah, they really did a nice job, but their boat also has a shoal keel that spreads the stress along a larger area of the hull. What a lot of people don’t realize is the hull really has very little strength in and of itself. The grid is really what provides all the strength to the boat which is why I would suggest adding on to the grid to spread that stress over a greater area of the hull.
The design of the keel looks so fragile and exposed to damage. I could not feel comfortable on a sailboat with that design. No sailboat is exempt from damage, but a full keel helps me sleep better at night. Good luck. S/V Cork~Texas 🇺🇸⛵🐬🐕
@@smartenglishjpfull keels suck horribly. They are great for grounding but appalling for sailing. It's a sailing boat not a grounding boat. The problem here is not that the boat is a fin keel, but that it is a very poorly engineered and constructed fin keel. That doesn't mean all fin keels are bad, but can say without problem that all full keels sail like bricks because they do.
@@frankling9840 I like fin keels. But the modern practice of bolting them through the hull which is then reinforced with a grid is not sound. Some bodybuilders, such as X-yachts do a much better job with the keel bolted through a metal frame. Still others have the keel connected via a wide flange or a deep socket.
Call youtube channel Expedition Evans. They bought their boat in that condition and had to rebuild it from bottom up to fix all the structural issues from running aground at cruising speed by previous owner. So sorry this happened to you two. Hope you can get it fixed.
@@patandfrankieCheck out a series of videos titled "Sailboat Rebuild" on Sailing Aurora's channel. Their new Beneteau was grounded by someone who chartered it from them. The entire grid was rebuilt very much like Expedition Evans was, but since the repairs were covered by insurance, the work was performed professionally in Sweden. If I remember correctly, it was around 70k USD. I'd encourage you to watch each video in the series as it documents the repair done in a way you should require from your insurance
Sorry about the mishap. Our hearts go to you. We tend to agree more with the comments that a positive side of this mishap is that it happened in the boatyard rather than in the middle of the ocean with storms. I remember when our boat was in the boatyard, the main weight was on the keel sitting on wood blocks, the sides were supported by cradles. I suppose the keel section of the boat should be able to withdtand a lot of stress. Just imagine in the storm with massive waves hitting the boat from different directions, kock down and right up again. The strength of the keel section would be the key to survive in such conditions. Also we saw a lot of damaged boats on the sides after a hurricane on both land and in shallow water. Most would still maintain the integrity of the keel section despite the stress of falling and grounding during the hurricane. I know this may not lessen the gravity of the situation in any way, but just hope to shed a ray of positive light of the event. We all know you most likely could survive a demasting mishap but unlikely in a dekeeling one. Best wishes.
Your Insurance Company will send a Marine Surveyor to access the damage. Praying it's repairable and your Insurance Company will contact the yard for details on the haul. Best of luck with a favorable solution, truly HEART WRENCHING. God Bless!
This frame separation should not have happened even though it looks like the frames are only glued and not tabbed. I suspect this is structural damage that occurred some time in the past from grounding at speed and it finally let go when the boatyard side loaded the keel. The keel attachment should be strong enough to take the full weight of the boat without the hull flexing so much that the stringers and frames detach. The keel is going to have to come off for repairs and to let the hull take back its original shape. The boat is not a right off but the repairs will take several months in a good boat yard. Good luck!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts .. it’s really strange as we don’t know about and grounding and do trust the previous owner. We’ll never know the complete history but now we’ll deal with this the best way possible
Unfortunately this isn’t uncommon, from what I’ve seen it’s common on beneteaus I’ve seen this a lot. When they put the boat down on its keel, the boat should just roll forward a bit, not pop the grid. The boat has to be able to rest it’s weight on the keel and it’s structure. Given the keel shape, I suspect there may have been previous issues brewing and this haul out was just the last straw!
Totally agree. The so called grid was nothing more than a pre-produced frame that was glued to the hull. It is clear from the pictures that the separation of the grid from the hull is in a straight clear cut line. Meaning that it was glued to the hull, not tabbed. The proper construction would have been to epoxy the grid to the hull, then lay over multiple layers of cloth in various directions to ensure the grid was well bonded and capable of handling the loads. To do the repair properly will require removing most of the salon interior , removing the existing grid, grinding down the bilge surface to ensure good bonding, construction of a grid, bonding it in place, fill and fairing it smooth, priming , and painting the entire area, Then rebuild the interior and the floors. To do so you need the proper tools, materials, and a place to live while the boat is in the yard undergoing repair. The effort and costs will be substantial. And what do you have in the end? As I noted in my comment, you have in my opinion a boat not designed for off shore sailing. It is a sad and heart breaking situation but please don't compound your loss with an attempt to repair that boat if your intention is to sail off shore.
@@robertgranafei2781as a oatbuilder of 40 years' experience here in N.Z., I agree. Is it a Beneteau? These boats are built for charter work in the Med, mainly. They often take a hammering in the hands of drunken hirers. They are often sold after three seasons, because of ongoing structural issues. To go offshore in these boats is foolhardy. They look nice, have wine fridges and a.c. but structurally they are extrefragile. Placing weight on the keel in this manner is not unusual, and will not result in a popped grid in awell- built boat. From what I see, if this boat was here in N.Z., it would probably be a write off. My advice to the owners is to seriously consider this prospect. Get a surveyor, be firm with your insurance assessor, and remember that a boat is not a family member, it is a tool. Good luck.
I've ran my old Hunter aground many times. One time was really bad and the boat was new to me. It took TowBoat US 3 hours to pull me off. I took at quick look at the keel box and all seemed good. I sailed on it for another 2 years before it's next haulout which is when we discovered the keel box was cracked. It had a very slow leak, like 1 gallon every month. It cost 3K to have the fiberglass repaired. I kept that boat for another 14 years sailing her 40K miles offshore after that repair and did the Bahamas, Gulf of Mexico many times in bad weather, the all parts of the Caribbean sea and the south Pacific. Sold it in Fiji and got a Whitby 55 which has an encapsulated fin keel. I will never buy a boat that doesn't have an encapsulated keel or a keel box.
Wow, first of all it’s very impressive how much experience you have gained and miles you’ve sailed, that’s our dream to spend that much time on the ocean 😌. Good that you were lucky with the scenario and the repair.
@@patandfrankie It's an awesome dream and we will be going out again in a couple of years....we miss it a lot. There are tons of cruisers out there with hundreds of thousands of miles under their keel(s) so in a way I'm still a newbie but I had a really good mentor and I like to spread what knowledge I have. I've been in your shoes but not as bad, however, I know how you are feeling now. It feels really bad. Just remember 1 thing: you didn't die, you will live and you will learn from this. Your cruising plans most likely are going to be delayed a year but use that to your advantage. Don't rush it as that can get you in worse trouble. Take this year to learn more about boats, what they are made for, and what you will be doing.
Hi Guys, My 41' yacht suffered similar damage and it was repaired stronger than before! In my case the back of the keel was pushed upwards and broke numerous supporting joints inside the hull. The damage took six weeks to repair, but only because I managed the different repair trades myself rather than give the entuire project to one boatyard company. We had to remove all the interior furniture, which was difficult as the cupboards are fitted together in the factory and then put into the boat as a complete new unit. We also had to take the keel off and replace the bolts with new as they may have been damaged when the keel moved. Because the keel was to be removed, the mast had to also be removed beforehand. It required a professional marine surveyor to inspect the damage and approve the repairs. I then used different tradesmen to do different jobs. The repair took one month, but only because it was at my home port, I knew all the tradesemen and managed the different repair trades myself - it still cost over £20,000. In your case, being in Tenerife, it will be more challenging, so you must use an independant marine surveyor and I am afraid that you will not be able to remain on board whilst the work happens as everything has to be removed in the saloon and it it is a major structural work to the hull - with lots of dust. My advice is get a marine surveyor as soon as possible and allow months of delay. By the way, my yacht was repaired in 2014 and is still sailing well! It will be fine to sail across the Atlantic if repaired properly. Good luck.
Thank you very much for your message and the description of your damage. It all sounds very similar. We are currently uncovering all the damage, but everything is taking a little longer than expected. We have also called in surveyors to be really sure. At the moment, it sounds like we're facing something similar to what you're facing. However, we are very pleased to hear that everything went well for you and that your yacht is still sailing very well. We'll try to keep you up to date here. Thanks!
I went throug something similar in Barcelona Spain a few years back during covid and still have nightmares about it. My one advice to you is : Do no trust the yard one bit and get a independant survey before you touch anyting.
Just found your channel. First I’m sorry to see this happen to yall. I worked at a yacht service repair facility for 15 years and still work on boats, yachts to this day even though I changed career paths many years ago. I’m not saying it can’t be repaired, I’ve repaired many damaged yachts that had similar and way worse damages. The issue with your repair in particular is the weight of the keel. The lead keel is extremely heavy and the hull needs to be repaired to support it. Finding the right person for that job will be the challenge. That’s not a repair the typical DIY or back yard boat builder can fix. To be done properly is going to take a lot of time. I wish you guys nothing but the best.
Here in scandinavia keel issues are very common as we have many stones in the water. Hence, the damage you have is a very common one. Keel must come off, all furniture and floor off. Then the bulkheads and structural items will be grinded down and new glass etc will be layed. Depending on the repair - it may be stronger than before.
@@patandfrankie let me find you a typical repair from Finland/Sweden … just a second… will search. Our own keel also had work done, but we have an older boat so it was less dramatic as it was built much stronger with s and e glass… And yes, whoever does the repair will grind down as much as possible in order to lay new material… Link will follow. You may want to check with boatyards in Sweden or Finland who do these works routinely.
@@patandfrankie I sent you 3 links of a boat repair in Sweden very similar to what you have … Have a look, plus that will give you an idea of the expense and work needed.
Have you looked at 'Expedition Evans?' They bought a boat that had been grounded at speed - keel rotated - hull damaged. It took the removal of layers, re-tabbing the keel and the box-grid, and hours of glassing and grinding. In the end the hull was much stringer than factory. Options - major rebuild or claim the insurance and buy a blue water capable boat. Either wya, thank your God this didn't happen in mid Atlantic heavy storm seas.
As the cracks were being found I was thinking "Expedition Evans" as well. The repair will require extensive dismantling of the interior just to gain access to the problem area. As unfortunate as this situation is it very well could have saved them from a tragedy at sea. I hope this turns out well for them.
Hi I work as surveyor and I know very well that boat. To repair you have to investigate with ultrasound and endoscope camera. The best solution is to remove the mast and the keel to release any tension in the hull and from the cradle. Grind and laminate properly. The boat will be stronger. Feel free to contact if you need assistance.
Hi, thanks for your message and the information. We are currently in the process of uncovering the full damage, also with the help of surveyors, and then discussing the repair measures. But it seems to be going in a similar direction as you suggested.
I'm so sorry for this unfortunate event. Putting load on that type of keel is wrong. This is a fin keel designed for speed, not load bearing like a full keel. The keel will have to be removed, and the hull repaired and reenforced structurally. With the right repairs it can be stronger than new. I would have a conversation with the boat maker and get input if possible. Hopefully the insurance comes through and gets you back on the water. My thoughts are with you two.
Thanks for your thoughts.. we’ve heard that from several people - the wrong weight placement on a torpedo keel and that it can come back stronger 😉 We are trying our best to get her back in shape
@@patandfrankie Thinking you could well be now in the Hands of those Insurance, ''Underwriter'' Gods, whereby THEIR and by default their assessor /surveyor, could well look at this Damage and even see same as a Total loss, thereby writing off this craft by Paying out for the total insurable risk that your Insurance Company has tasked those Underwriters to put into effect for this Policy, so doing so then they i presume would later then i suppose go after the Marine Facilities liability Insurance cover for this charge , at a later stage... Whether or which i feel your Pain, and hope things go O.K. I would have worked fitting engines into Production Sloops, in a Boatyard, and saw how GPR Laminators laid down Hulls in those Moulds, i would reckon no mater what repair or solution that some folk could come up with , I wouldn't think once a boat is damages things then do become sketchy, as one may ask, could have the craft Re - Insured, as Insurance Companies do not like to deal with problem cases but that's they way of Commerce, or even if it were to to be repaired then could it suffer a depreciation as to the actual resale cost of your craft all this would need to be asked, it's early days yet in this Journey, Stay Strong, but you may have to get your OWN Marine Loss adjuster, to take you through what your options are , as you might need to have someone on, Your Side... Best Wishes.
@@patandfrankie Don't forget you have the option of a cash settlement of the claim if you're determined to keep and repair the boat but the insurer wants to write it off.
Stay strong guys. You’re a lovely couple and this too will pass. Sailing is equal measures of pain and joy - at sea and on land. Handle this setback with patience and care because it will be an indelible part of your life’s log and how you deal with it together can and must become a net positive in your adventure.
I've worked in a factory building prestigious motor yachts where the 'grid' is bonded to the hull. This has been standard in the industry for many years now. It appears in your video (though extra zooming in would help) the bonding paste has separated from the grid but remains on the hull. Yes, it is serious as others have pointed out. The entire structural integrity is now lost and the boat no longer stiff. It will not handle the rig loads either. I have sailed a boat with a similar condition but only inshore. Over 15 knots the boat was flexing when sailing into a short choppy sea. It could be repaired as Expedition Evans proved but this is a major undertaking. Definately get a surveyor whos recommended by your insurance company before proceeding.
@@greenfuture578 sounds correct. what responsibility does the builder have? Whether it’s still under warranty or not it seems to be a design or manufacturing issue. A slight tilt in the sling shouldn’t cause the grid to separate from the hull, one would think. Depends on the degree of tilt I suppose.
@@deepeddysf The builder could be responsible however, since all boats are built this way these days how can anyone claim against the builders. Definately a yard issue as the boat was not placed correctly on its keel leading to 'point loading' on the aft end of the keel bulb. The weak link in modern boats is the bonding paste method of joining grid to hull. the component parts...hull, grid and deck are massively stiff. Vecuum resin infusion produces very, very stiff components when the correct layup is used. The bonding fails when an applied force causes the parts in different directions.
@@deepeddysf Thats correct. My Hanse 461 has a steel grid too. Hanse produced a line of boats built with steel grids and epoxy infused hulls. Very stiff. They are significantly cheaper than X yachts making them excellent value for money on the second hand market.
Just want to point out one more thing: read up on fixing fiberglass. When fiberglass is being laid, it is going through a chemical bond. Most boat companies use polyester resin as it is the cheapest and bonds well with jelcoat but it has the weakest bond. When you are repairing cured (old) fiberglass, the resin can only do a mechanical bond which isn't as good. So, you will hear all the time that the repair is stronger than it was when it was new, but that can be misleading. The initial bonding of new glass to old glass is mechanical and weaker than the original chemical bond. That is why good fiberglass repairs has the new glass being laid from both sides and touching each other so give it at least some chemical bond but the attachment to the old glass is going to be mechanical and therefore not as strong. If it is repaired, insist on epoxy resin as it has a lot stronger mechanical bond.
I can only say repair it, sell it at an acceptable price and look for a smaller, but seaworthy ship. With a moderate, strong keel, a triple-mounted rudder on a skeg and a hull speed of around 7-8 knots max. This will take you around the world for years. Everything else is playing Russian roulette.
So sorry for your misfortune. I've had many setbacks in the last three years I've been sailing a new to me boat. I swear, every boat wants to sink itself, and it's all you can do to keep that from happening. Hopefully this episode makes your channel blow up!!
Took the Evans 3 years to drop the keel rebuild all stringers. They over built it to last forever, not a bad thing. They made you tube videos of the whole process.
It took them plus of 6 months of full-time working to reinforce their whole keel grid area. They had to pull the whole interior from the front wall to the engine bay. They added a minimum of 4 layers of heavy biaxial glass.
Mechanical engineer thats specialized in composite structures and offshore vessels here. DO NOT take Evans and their work as an example!!!!!!!! The little bit of tabbing that they did, and their methods of surface preparation and the ratio glass to resin are so wrong!
@@jackdbur The lengths they went to do not necessary reflect the quality of the repair. But it does show the hug effort required to compensate for those design compromises.
Something that I may have learned from this video is that the boatyard people may have lots of experience but there are thousands of designs and so the owner must know their own boat and how to move it better than anyone.
That is true. If you rely on someone you might be lost (even though it would be their job), so try contribute the best possible. Next time we will try to do a better briefing as well. We were really expecting that they would now how to handle the boat as there were no questions asked
You'd expect a boatyard to be able to slip a boat professionally and correctly, that's why you pay them the big bucks to slip. Quite simply they stuffed up.
@@clavertonyou’d also expect a boat to be able to sit on its keel a bit crooked and not immediately fall to bits! As should the shipyard. The twisting moment against the hull in this situation is considerably less than if they’d touched the bottom and boats MUST be able to cope with touching the bottom, even at speed.
@@PaulBKal this wasn't caused by it not being able to sit "a bit crooked" but by how the boat yard dropped it on the ground. This style of boat is hardly unusual ... just about every serious racing boat today has this style of keel and a professional boat yard should be perfectly familiar with how to handle it. Whether or not it is an appropriate design for cruising is a totally separate issue.
AS others have pointed out the grid has separated from the hull. It can be repaired. Here is a UA-cam channel that documents the process from start to finish. Work was done by professionals inside a work shop. SAILBOAT REBUILD is the series and Sailing Aurora is the name of the channel. I would think the marina would pay for the repair BUT contact your insurance and have them handle it. Good thing no one was injured.
Transatlantic skipper here, sailed in Arc 2015. There will be differing opinions on this, as you see from the comments. But I share the view that you probably dodged a bullet, so you should look on the bright side. Of course people cross oceans in coastal cruiser/racers like this, with fin keels and spade rudders, all the time. That doesn't change the fact that statistically they are far more prone to catastrophic failure (either of keel or rudder) in bluewater conditions. How much do you want to run the risk of losing the boat, possibly with only minutes to identify the problem and save your lives? Cheeki Rafiki, IdaLina, the list is very long. If you want to bluewater cruise, you will be much much safer in a boat with a stronger keel and rudder. In the Arc 2015, we had good friends who nearly lost their boat due to rapid water ingress when the rudder stock on their spade rudder loosened. There are so many other cases of lost boats - and lives - with these designs. You may need to shelve your plans for the crossing this fall, and instead make a longer term plan that does not run the same unnecessary risks. Good luck!
@@patandfrankie We had an Amel, which we absolutely loved. Ketch, very sturdy keel and a skeg-hung rudder. Designed to be easy to sail for a couple. Would definitely recommend one of their boats if you are looking to switch. Honestly, if I were considering long-term bluewater cruising again, I would also seriously look at catamarans. Yes, they have their own challenges, but with the right type you don't have to worry about your keel falling off or rudder tearing a hole in the boat. And we saw so many catamaran cruisers enjoying really a high quality of life out there, while still sailing safely. But if we got another monohull, without a doubt it would be something like the Amel. Strong keel and well-protected rudder for the win. I know exactly how you're feeling now - on the hard with major issues - it's not fun. People who watch these channels but who have never cruised don't understand the intense hard work and often heartbreak that go into this lifestyle. But remember it's a marathon, not a sprint. One step of the time, and you'll make that dream real. Just avoid the urge to rush and cut corners, which can lead you into taking risks you really don't need to take :)
@@patandfrankiethere is lots of boats build in traditional manner with long keel. Franz Maas Breeon, Spækhugger, Havsörnen II. Olle Enderlein and Hallberg Rassy constructions as well as British constructions. Take your time and don't buy such vulnerable type of construction again...
It’s very likely that the boatyard may have just bought a boat. It was their actions that caused the unnecessary pressure that separated the hull from the framework that structurally keeps the hull from collapsing in. If you insurance company has to pay for it they may actually decide it’s cheaper to settle and give you the cash for your boat. In both of these scenarios, you don’t have a boat until you find a new one. Expedition Evans actually bought a boat that seems to have been in the very same condition. Your boat is now in the same condition that sailing magic carpet got their first boat because the shipyard dropped a boat out of its slings and they bought it cheap to fix it up. In your case, though it’s already your boat so it’ll be the boat yards insurance company or your insurance company or some combination of the two of them will probably end up deciding whether the boat is a complete loss or not. If they decided it is a complete loss they’ll give you money and that’s what you’ll have, if they decide it can be repaired they would probably want a professional shipyard to do the repairs however they may be willing to give you a one time check to do the work yourself, but if it comes up short, they won’t give you any more money. If they should decide that it’s a total write off it’s unlikely that they would be willing to sell it back to you cheap after paying you for it. It would be more likely that they would want to put it up to auction so if you wanted it back, you would have to wait for it to get to auction and then to have the winning bid and then you still have to repair the boat. Not knowing how much you owe on the boat or if you own it out right I don’t know if you’d have enough cash to bid to buy it back. If you owe money on it, the bank will expect you to pay off the loan before you get any of the money from the insurance company and what’s left over may not be enough to win an auction. If you own it out right in theory, you should get more for the boat then it would sell for auction. Me personally if they give me a big check, I think I’m just getting a different boat. Good luck with whatever happens.
And if the winds head this way, perhaps reject the first two insurance offers but this is a great life lesson that nothing is ever certain, people scream at airports cause the flight was cancelled etc, If the captain says the plane ain’t safe, then that’s good enough for me, doesn’t help but maybe the ‘gods’ want you to have a slightly different path for whatever reason.. Clearly you’ve already had some special moments few ever get to see but i’m definitely hoping for all the best 💙 btw, you can never get enough video / photo evidence..
These are not the overbuilt boats of the 60s anymore. They are boats are designed to be lightly used and replaced. That's the intent of getting into that kind of boat. Follow the design intent, find a new boat.
Exactly same thing happened to us 9 months ago in North Queensland, Australia. We sold the boat as a project within 2 days and moved on. Good luck whatever you decide to do, things will work out.
Yea looks like needs same procedure as Expedition Evans. Also last year Eric Aanderaa hit rock at speed, he got it fixed very fast but it cost $35,000.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this. I’ve been living aboard my 2002 Hunter Marine Passage 450 since July 15, 2006. I can’t imagine having to handle this. From some of the expert comments, it seems this is repairable, but it would cost and at what delay? May God bless you during this time and take away your anxieties and fears and give you peace and serenity.
Thanks for your kind words! Nice to hear you are also living aboard your boat 😊 Yes it is definitely a costly repair and takes quite some time.. All the best to you too!
Your story reminds me the one of Sailing Atypic. They lifted their catamaran to clean the hull and apply some decorative sticker, and they discovered huge structural damages. After a while they decided to put the boat back into the water, I think without fixing it. Please don’t do it like that…I cannot imagine all the things going through you head right now. While it’s only material damage, it is your house and your dreams. Unless you are committing to boatyard life for a while, I hope you’ll get enough money from the insurance to buy another boat. You need to have 200% confidence level into your boat for the crossing. I wish you all the best and this nightmare to be over as soon as possible.
Thanks for your empathy and feeling with us! It’s really like you said - our home and dreams and we feel quite lost at times. But we are definitely taking the best possible and most professional way we can!
I feel for you guys - I don't think it was the right boat configuration for your journey, but then I never expected my bilge keels and rudder skeg to push through my reinforced GRP hull on a drying sandy weekend mooring over a non-forecast force 6 stormy spring tide weekend from the worst of directions causing big swells - Shit Happens - though they appear to have messed-up please respect the boat yard crew as the was no obvious mal-intent, follow your Insurers lead, search for your next dream boat in case the damage is terminal - Console and enjoy each other on porcelain land - Looking forward to seeing smiles from adversity in your next video :)
Hi.there is a tendency to put the bottom frame with bottom pieces in putty compound as glue and this is not so good because there is no full contact with the hull, it could easily have happened in the water over the Atlantic, in other words, your boats can be life-threatening in stormy weather. Frank
This is a totally amateur analysis. Be happy that you are alive and forget about crossing the ocean in this boat. If your boat was gently lowered onto its keel and those cracks appeared, then it was previously damaged. Being a few degrees off vertical when set down would not cause this damage. If I were you I would stop commenting on this incident. Just update your channel as you progress. You have already stated that you participated in the positioning of the boat. That won't help your legal position. If you were just going to cruise in a bay during daylight and it could be economically fixed, then fix it. But to repair it to cruise in deep water would be insane. It's really the wrong style of hull even if it were in perfect condition. If you get an insurance settlement, put that money towards a boat that is better designed for your purpose and in better condition. Cruising sailboats absolutely need a complete survey before purchase. But if people are unlucky enough to keep selecting the wrong boat, then that can become a very expensive process. Personally, I would only consider sailboat blue water cruising in a new sailboat rated for that or in a used boat that passed inspection. Make no mistake about it. Your lives were just saved. If that keel hit a whale or container or a shoal what do you think would have happened? For your intended use (not racing) consider a boat with an integrated keel. Not a bulb attached to a fin. When searching for a used boat people are definitely going to tell you it was NEVER run aground. How likely is that? Get a survey before purchase. Good luck.
This looks just like the issue that Expedition Evans ran into with their Beneteau 50. They bought it as a total constructive loss and cut the salon floor out, reset the grid/frame back into place and then reinforced the structure and tabbed it back into place. It took them a while to get it all good and had a surveyor inspect it along the way so they could keep insurance on the boat.
@@fluffi8161 and the worries while you are 2,000 miles from any land and the waves get big and the boat gets thrown around, you'll be asking yourself: will it hold?
I saw this video today but did not understand first what was the problem. Then I saw something happened when the boat was placed on the ground on its keel . Later when you showed the cracks inside the hull it seems to me that this must be some kind of construction mistake. In my opinion a boat must be able to stand on its keel. Anyway, I feel sorry for you for all the trouble you will have in this matter. One can only hope that you will not suffer economicly. I have seen some of your videos and they are very well done. I like your presentation. I will follow any further videos in this matter and any further videos of your sailing if there will be any. To me it looks that you have a huge probleme to restore the boat and make the construction safe. All the best to both of you.👍
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback on our videos. We hope that there will be more sailing videos to come. In any case, we don't want to give up. Nice to have you with us.
On production boats like yours. The innerframe in glued with high strength epoxy and not laminated to reduce production time. The stress caused the bonding to crack and detach. The keel must be disconnect. The inner frame should be relaminated to the hull and the hull must be inspected for delamination and eventually reinforced if so. Unfortunately its a big job and most of the saloon fornitures must be removed. The repair will make the boat much stronger since the inner frame will become monolitic to the hull like it should had been built in the first place. Unfortunately production boats are subject to fail under ubnormal strees since the are cheaply built. In my opinion boats should be engineered to withstand collision underwater or issues like yours but that would make the vessel more heavy and much more expensive. Don't use the shipyard but use an outside contractor specialist in composite with a reputable history. The yard to provide only logistics.
@patandfrankie this is an important point raised...most boatyards do not have the knowledge or capabilities to do this complex repair. It should be a 3rd party, insurance approved composite specialist company that works with structural engineers who will determine what weights of glass and what orientations. Only use a quality epoxy resin and make sure all repairs are bagged or infused.
I went with a 33' steel pilothouse cutter (Chatham 33 by Caroff) for my singlehanded circumnavigation in the high latitudes, north and south, because it was basically bullet proof. Paid $34K added $6K in extra equipment and sold it 5 years later for $40K. No regrets.
Disagree, if she wasn’t strong enough for a slight eccentric loading, she sure wasn’t strong enough to go sailing in. Of course If you go down the suing route, you won’t see an outcome for years.
@@markthomasson5077 I reckon this is correct. If they dropped the boat from about a foot high then it would have been their fault but the boat should be able to handle loading anywhere along the bottom of the keel. The boat is way too weak. If I was the yard I would be very hard at not giving any money for slipping a structurally inadequate boat - the boat should have been able to handle this.
Good luck, guys. I hope this difficult and strenuous situation can be sorted. You both don't deserve so much bad luck, but maybe it could have been worse with major structural problems out in the Atlantic. Look at each other and think to yourself, I still have the most important person in my life beside me. I will keep up to date to see how you both get on. In the meantime, you're both in my prayers. God bless. (John from the UK 🇬🇧).
So sorry!!! Crossing every finger, toes. And limbs that the insurance company and yard will come through and fix it all up for you and get you back on the water sooner rather than later. It is definitely possible to fix. Keep your spirits up!
If the yard is fixing it you need to inspect their work before they lay-up any fibreglass every time. Expedition Evens found that previous repairs were not fully ground out & that the adhesion was not good in areas. DO NOT let them use polyester resin for the repairs! 😊 vinyl ester or epoxy is the only way to go.
I've only ever owned long keel boats which are designed to rest on the keel. We actually had our own "legs" which we carried with us so in a drying harbour we could be safe. I'm surprised that the yard expected to be able to allow this boat to stand on its keel without other supports and it's hardly surprising that it was damaged. Maybe the owners had done it before but certainly I would be interested to know if the designer intended the boat to stand on the keel.
Family of mine are avid ocean sailors and they refuse to cross the ocean with a bolted keel. The reason is simple and you have just stumbled upon it. As others have stated: 'take what the insurance will offer you, be thankful you did not lose your keel in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, buy a boat that is ocean capable and then set out on your journey. This boat is indeed for coastal sailing and perhaps not even that. I know it is difficult to accept, but I would like to ask you, sit back and relax and then think about if your lives are worth the money you will lose on this boat. Yes, you may lose money, but you will still have your lives. I was a SAR pilot for close to 10 years and have seen enough disasters of sailors who were not prepared for the journey and boats that should not have been out at sea at all. None of them lived to tell the story, we just recovered bodies..........if we could recover them in the first place. Instead of seeing this as a bad sign, see it as something that saved your life, something that gave you a second chance, a second chance to do it right. I know it hurts to lose your boat, but losing your life is far worse.
That's nonsense. Traditional European boat building are with bolted long keel. A reliable construction proven it's worth during decades and millions of nautical miles in all sorts of waters.
I know it doesn't feel like it, but you're lucky. That boat was not fit for blue water. You found out in the yard, not at sea. Someone up there is watching out for you.
For what it is worth my recommendation would be to appoint a legal solicitor / attorney to represent your claim. both the ship insurer and the yard insurer will claim against each other. It may become a war of words. I feel sorry for your situation and wish you all the best, may there be calm seas and fair winds in your future.
When you buy a used boat with a bulb and fin keel you don't know what happen to it before. A boat like that is very easy to go aground and the bulb will get suck in corals and sand bars, they it will be pulled out with a lot of pressure, so likely there was damage before this happened. The insurance company may not cover it.
Sad indeed. As others have mentioned I dont think its the yards fault and its an issue with the design of the boat or previous fatigue. Sitting the boat down on an uneven surface from a travel lift should not cause that to happen unless it was dropped....
It was not dropped but the lowering process was not performed well and what we’ve heard is that the torpedo keel is quite fragile when it comes to handling .. Thanks for your support!
@@patandfrankie It felt like the team was under pressure , possibly distracted and unprepared for a particularly risky keel situation which required particular care and expertise 😢
This isn’t the end of the world, guys. It looks like your floors (the transverse supports) have disconnected from the hull where they are tabbed in with fiberglass. Sometimes this joint is made with an adhesive called plexus, sometimes it’s made with fiberglass tabbing, sometimes it’s made with both. The long story short is that it can be repaired. The basic procedure is to gain access to the areas that need repair by removing furniture. Then, the gelcoat is removed to expose the raw fiberglass on any cracked structural components. At this point, after carefully cleaning the bonding surfaces, new fiberglass can be laid, usually using epoxy resin. Your keel is very high aspect ratio and has a heavy bulb on the end. This is a great performance feature, but significantly increased and concentrates the forces on the reinforcing structure of your hull. I would recommend that you take zero chances when performing this repair. Make sure it is supervised by a professional that knows exactly what they’re doing. You may even consider contacting the initial builder to obtain and exact fiberglass layup schedule. Good luck!
I’m sure at the end of the day two or more things will be the cause of the damage. That area of these modern designs has to be super strong picture sailing at 9 knots and you have hard grounding . Much of the force generated by the grounding goes to that area. Good luck may be a little rolling nowadays but smooth sailing will happen.
If the structure is so weak that putting the boat down not exactly strait causes thiis . Shows that its a design or building issue. Boat should be strong enough to handle that. Fibreglass boats with bolt on keels 😢
What we’ve been told problems can accrue with this type of torpedo keel when it is not handled correctly. But of course apart from that any boat should take their own weight when it gets placed corretly.
@@patandfrankie It appears your torpedo keel was a time bomb; we're all happy this happened in a yard and not at sea. This is so sad, it's almost as hard as losing a loved one, in some ways worse. Lean on your insurance company, weigh your options and remember to enjoy your health while you move on to the next chapter. Wishing you the best.
I predict the insurance company will total out this boat. There is no way they want to accept the liability and risk that even a professional repair will make the boat as strong as it was originally.
This is what you get when they only glue the frames instead of using fiberglass etcetera. Another thing is that yachtbuillders are allowed to do this and still get a CE stamp on their yachts.
My Dads double ended lifeboat that had been converted into a twin beam trawler sat on an old rotten wooden stage pile. Which was just an old telephone pole that had rotted away into a point. It came through the hull as the water ebbed away. When the water came back she obviously didn’t float again. We finally got her afloat with big pumps and many rags hammered into the crack which ran from the keel to the skeg on the starboard side, about 4’6” long. We got her high and dry on the next tide which was a spring tide and I preceded to fibreglass over the crack on the inner hull just to stop any water ingress from the next tide. I dug a hole like a grave in the mud which immediately filled with water and laid in it to get to the crack. I used a 7” grinder to take off the gel coat and down into the original fibreglass, so the area was like a fuzzy fibreglass patch. I ground away a good 6-8” either side of the crack and began the task of fiberglassing upside down. Obviously I used twice as much resin as the other half was on me, but I did get 6-8 layers of fibreglass over the crack and bonded to the original hulls construction. Being she was only a work boat and not a pleasure craft, a quick sand to take off the hairs and points left from my exploits. Then she was given a thick coat of anti foul and called good. She spent her last remaining fishing days as a cockle blowing beast, as she could blow better that boat twice her size and three times the horsepower. So my friends, anything is possible. The only thing holding u back is your abilities. But I wish u the very best of British ✌️❤️&🍀, and a fair wind and following sea👍
OK, deep breaths. This is clearly a big deal, and I would guess it will delay your crossing, but no one was hurt and things are stable right now. I agree your insurance company is your best bet. Hopefully their claims department will provide good service, but not all do. From your description of the incident the damage it was caused as the yard lowered the keel to the ground before the jack stands were positioned, and there may have been unanticipated stress on the keel because the angle wasn't right. Or, just too much weight was applied too quickly. In any case, the yard may well be at fault for the damage. Document everything while it's still fresh in your mind. I would want the best engineer I could find to come inspect the damage ASAP, and see what evidence could be gathered about why the keel/hull connection failed. Your insurance company may have a good recommendation, but may not. I would cover the cost of the survey if necessary and worry about reimbursement later. Since the yard may have been at fault, I would be leery of their recommendations for a survey, or preliminary treatment, until an independent analysis has been conducted. I'm new to the channel, and don't know what type of boat you have, but active user groups often can be very helpful. Others may have experienced this problem, or know of successful solutions, and are usually very willing to help.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! You are absolutely right about making the best effort possible to get it repaired properly, especially as it’s not a holiday cruiser but our home that we want to cross oceans with. It’s super overwhelming for us but we are in contact with many people, gathering opinions and advice and have contacted the shipyard Grand Soleil. So far our insurance has been helpful and supportive in getting the process started. Let’s hope this stays like for the next steps!
@@patandfrankie OK, I see you have a Grand Soleil 46. Sorry you're having to go through this. Hopefully repairs won't be too painful, and that insurance will be paying the bill.
hi, I see there a great possibility of hidden previous damage.... I don't think that damage was caused by supporting the boat by taking it down from the travelift. It even seems very strange to me how the keel is and how you can see the groove in the outer recess of the hull. It is a very complex situation that would not give me confidence (ever again)
Hi, sorry to see your setback. Those mentioning a rethink on the style of keel do have a point, however that in itself doesn't solve much. While thinking about your problem had the thought that with the help of someone familiar with modifications, redesign the keel into a full length one. Most likely take an edge off her racing stats but depending on the design, would reduce local stress, add structural strength to the hull and reduce your draught. Guessing, but would most likely make her a little more stable in steering as well. Wishing you all the best.
I'm glad you're ok, that's the most important part. Had the keel been this damaged when you were out at sea it's likely it would have come off...... makes me shudder.
That’s a tough time to have such a problem We discovered a crack in the sealant around the keel before leaving Plymouth for our Atlantic crossing . We had hit a rock going only very slowly but it had unseated the keel . We had no choice but to take the keel Off and make a full inspection before deciding on repair method . Insurance company were quick about approving works . We did not have an assessor just two very experienced boatbuilders . We did not find any hull cracks just one pair of loose keel bolt. Removing the keel took 4 hours quite a brutal operation which did damage the hull pocket and that had to be repaired .The whole job took a month . We were much happier/confident after it was done . Looks like the structural grid/frame which connects hull and keel has been damaged on your boat and that will need all joints grid beams inspected and those that are cracked /damaged repaired re-tabbed and strengthened . Unfortunately it’s going to be a lengthy repair , but you’ll make it ok. We made it across Atlantic last November currently in Trinidad . Wishing you best of luck and a speedy repair from Trinidad . 👍🏻😎
It's natural to blame they yard, but IMHO, the defect was already there, it just manifested itse of at the yard. Be glad it happened on land and not at sea.
I am sorry to be pessimistic. I do not agree that this boat can "certainly be repaired" to anything significantly stronger without significant, likely impractical, design changes. Obviously, I am not there, to observe damage nor estimate loads based upon the totality of the design. However, it appears that the design is very similar to two vessels with which I have more familiarity. A low-speed (about 3 kts) impact, at low tide, with a rocky bottom here, in Stonington, CT, by one of them ( a smaller boat (36-ft) but apparently very, very similar) resulted in the aft portion of the keel, fastened to the integral, internal grid structure, itself bonded to the hull, to shear through the hull, taking the grid structure with it. The boat, which began sinking within minutes, was very close to a marina and, miraculously, a Towboat US rescue boat was less than 1 minute away. The owners bought it new, and told me this incident was their first grounding, and it was very non-traumatic, described as "a sort of bumping", which stopped, while they slowed and, then, recovered forward speed. They noticed the water intrusion and called the nearby rescue boat. Repairing it to the original inferior specs seems ridiculous, obviously. Strengthening the boat I inspected, in my opinion, requires significant dimensional alterations- which in that shallow hull, would reduce the headroom undesirably, as that grid had no room for a truss- based design, extending, as necessary, throughout the hull to reduce the local loading. Yes, the design was adequate, over almost a decade, for their local, benign sailing goals. But- obviously unsuitable for something as uneventful as nudging something hard, underwater. In your case: Of course your boat could be repaired to resemble the original design- which, for the purpose of "life support, with a safety margin" i.e. what is necessary for anything other than the sort of local sailing the above couple engaged in- with help minutes away- is, obviously, very, very risky. Note: At my boatyard: EVERY boat they haul has its full weight (or, nearly so), on its keel at some point. An incompetent lift operator lowered my boat's keel to the ground, with three resounding "thumps". No damage. I hit a large, immovable object (assume rock) foolishly trusting private markers through a mooring field, next to a yacht having ~7-ft draft (I am 5-ft draft). Everything in my boat that was not nailed down moved, like, 2-3 ft forward, my depressed bow creating a small breaking wave (my speed: about 5.5 kts). My external lead fin keel, which is about 8- ft long, about 2-ft high, and ~1-ft wide where attached to the bottom of a deep sump, had its front face flattened back, and spread to about 3-times it's original width, over about a 5- inch height. No internal damage. My boat is not any sort of custom, high-end boat, rather a production boat, built in 1977. I truly believe a proper ocean-going boat should be able to withstand loads far exceeding simply supporting their own static weight, or, those encountered while coastal or Long Island- style sailing during benign mid-summer conditions. Mine will never be as stout as I would like, despite my efforts, due to what I believe is mostly excessive beam- which I need to accept, not deny- sort of like the inherent design of your keel. While I am on a roll: I was the double-hand crew during three Bermuda 1-2 races, on a 34ft sloop, built by well-known (and, reasonably respected) builder. First race: The spade rudder broke off, ~110 mi N of Bermuda, during the double-hand leg. Inspection revealed that the rudder, as likely with most similar designs (which is why I will not state the builder) was simply a notched stainless steel plate, perhaps 1/4" thick (the plate itself was, of course, gone, along with the rudder, we inspected the post), welded to the bottom of the ~3-inch diameter rudder post, around which a foam-based fiberglass skinned structure was cast. We were lucky: Limped back with an emergency rudder which was barely adequate for the calm conditions. Rough weather? Farther away? No way. My theory: We had brisk downwind conditions, the highly responsive autopilot continuously (and, beautifully) correcting yaw (we were using a cruising spinnaker, on a broad reach, with ~4-5 ft short period waves, with an underlying 4- ft swell), imparted cyclic loading, concentrated at that relatively tiny weldment, and it fatigued to failure, probably initiated by on-going crevice corrosion. The boat, surveyed ~1 year prior, showed no obvious evidence of impending failure, at least to that well regarded person. Trip 2: Dismasted (single-handed leg) during relatively benign Gulf Stream conditions, due to the manufacturer utilizing "racy" cast T fittings at the mast for the shrouds, without including toggles to allow proper articulation (which I observed, later, on other boats, perusing masts at a local yacht club). While in Bermuda (the owner valiently saved the damaged mast, which we cut and re-rigged, to get home) performing repairs, a seasonal cruiser, remembering our earlier rudder mishap, took me aside and literally begged me not to go to sea " in a boat like that"- defined by him as having inherent design elements considered, at least historically, unsuitable for the constant stress imparted during offshore distance sailing. And, departing from this philosophy incurs risk- which needs to be recognized and managed. He felt that our boat was unsuitable in ways which would be very difficult to change.(Although, I may consider a spade rudder if I had full knowledge of the design, construction, and age. Still not sure. This years Newport-Bermuda race saw the sinking of a well- built spade rudder boat, due, according to the very knowledgeable owner, to the failure of the rudder's internal supporting structure following impact with an unknown object, allowing water ingress. The rudder itself was apparently still servicable. I do not know if a strong skeg would have helped. Seems like it shouldn't hurt, though. I do believe, though, in rig redundancy, reflected by my modifications to my boat, i.e. cutter rig, twin backstays, multiple lower shrouds, etc, insisted upon by that seasoned ocean-crossing mariner... The bottom line: The claim that your boat could not only be repaired but also appropriately upgraded to "something better" (whatever that means), is extraordinary, since likely redesign, not just repairs, are involved, to meet mechanical requirements that are very hard to quantify. Do you simply make the "grid" of heavier construction? How much is enough? Must it be trussed? What about compatibility with the interior? Must the interior be changed? Do you want to find out if the new design is adequate, yourself, during a statistically likely event, 1000+ miles from help? The inconvenient truth is that much of this sort of information is obtained empirically, from the truthful documentation/anecdotes provided by captains of the variety of pleasure boats plying our oceans, some of whom operate the same type, compare their experiences, and discuss successes and shortcomings. Since significant data exists to suggest the shortcomings associated, for example, of your boat's keel design, such claims (I think) require extraordinary proof, which, in the world of engineering (mine, at least) , involves the peer review of candidate design modifications- something well beyond the sort of actions most marine facilities engage in (although, I am sure, that many "experts" will claim that their approach would meet these requirements, without feeling the need to provide any technical data). I simply do not know how you responsibly proceed without potentially high cost, long delays, much debate and, still, likely be "the guinea pig", to determine, in-situ, if all this effort and cost results in the required safety. I certainly wish you both well, and, especially, your safety and joy throughout your endeavors. -- PM
It will involve taking interior apart to gain access to the grid. From there rebuilding the grid, lots of grinding and fiberglass repairs to grid. You can do the work yourselves, it's not that hard to lay glass. It's all in the prep to make it go smooth. There are some channels that you can learn from. Good luck
I didn't realize the boat yard could do damage- lesson learned. Your comments- I don't know, sounded many times. Time for professional advice and help.
⚠Her days are done. She's a write-off. No one is meant to sail her. - You are being led to find another boat to realise your dreams. Don't resist by holding regret or disappointment. Instead, let go and embrace the event as a growth experience and move forward trusting things will unfold within your capacity to augment results to your benefit. Shine on✨
This actually made me very sad. Such an unlucky thing to happen at this point in your journey (or any time really) and I sincerely hope it doesn’t delay your plans. I have seen many repairs on sailing channels, and if you are in the right yard, with the right folks doing it, plus insurance they can work wonders. I cross everything that this is the case for you. Love this channel.
Your support means a lot to us, thanks for your nice words! We are trying our best to put our boat in the best hands and do all we can to contribute to that. So far we’ve been helped nicely by our insurance.
You guys will get over this! Keep strong you two! :) try to focus on the good things and just keep going... It's part of the journey Sending some love ❤
This is a disaster that didn't need to happen. Extremely sad and frustrating on many levels. I can offer advise on repairing though. I am qualified. My first and strongest advice is Do NOT try and fix this yourselves, please! You need a professional. Time wise it will take approximately one month after the insurance is sorted and you've found the right professional you can work with. The floor will need to be cut away and everything removed. You will not be able to live on your yacht while the repairs are being done and all your clothing, bedding etc should be also removed. The dust and fumes will get into everything! The good news is yes it can be repaired but sad to say this will probably delay your plans by at least 3 months I'd suggest. I was happy to see you didn't play the blame game that shows you both have amazing attitudes even in the worst possible scenario. Well done for that and all the best getting this fixed and back to the water. Cheers 🍻🍻
Thanks a lot for taking the time to share some ideas with us. We will definitely do as you said and prepare the boat as best as possible so that the works can take place. We are trying to stay positive that we will still be able to sail this upcoming seasons, but some days are better and on some days it feels like everything is processing slowly. Probably usual for an insurance issue. Thanks for your nice words - of course there are many emotions involved when something like this happens, but more important is that all energy goes into solving the problem. 😌
The hull liner has to come out. For that, everything has to come off including the deck. It can be repaired, but the cost would exceed the value of the boat. Insurance will total the boat.
As a contributor said below this looks more like an inshore sailing vessel. All my boats had steel keels and would sit comfortably on the hardstanding with fore and aft hull props with a further prop under the bow. Imagine if you tied up to pier and the tide went down leaving you sitting on your keel. In my opinion the same thing would happen. The keel to hull attachment is a major structural design, Either have a new keel properly designed and attached or junk the boat because what you have it completely unseaworthy. Personally, I would get a properly designed keel but if somebody did design the original lead blob then that it makes me wonder about the rest of the equipment and suitability of you having a sea worthy raft.
Thanks for your thoughts! We believe avoiding a ground touching in any case should be avoided and we always check the depth in marinas and on the sea. In any case the boat should be able to rest on the keel, but in the lowering process there was an unnatural load combination that is not normal.
If this was an existing weakness, better to find this now, than out at sea. Please keep us informed. You might find it useful to look at the early vids by Jade and Bret of Expedition Evans.
@@patandfrankie On sea it will destroy the complete hull think about its swabbing from left ti right taken all the tons second for second. U can contact odd life crafting he is this time in france he will maybe come and repair it with u he had the ability for that.
Sorry to hear about this unfortunately incident,through no fault of yours……….on the positive side ,I subscribed yesterday after looking at this video,and have noticed that since yesterday there’s been a few hundred which have also subscribed…..i have started watching all the videos from the beginning and now after postings this will continue to watch all your episodes……super big hugs to both…some excellent advice has been given by your subscribers…..everything will work fine in the end.
There are now so many reports about problems with a deep short keel with a ballast bomb underneath. And this with modern, relatively lightly built GRP hulls - one has to doubt/reject this construction!
@@patandfrankie Keel problems: I had read several examples of keel problems; (including at Bavaria;)) 004 Keel damage and mast foot repair - light at the end of the tunnel? (UA-cam title) ua-cam.com/video/NhAGWxAbqaA/v-deo.html
I hope your insurance company comes through. Good luck! This is a slight failure of the boatyard and a slight failure of the pre-purchase inspection (although problems with the keel matrix are not always visible) But there is a bigger, industry-wide problem at hand: boats with fin keels with lead bulbs are not bluwater boats. If a boat runs into a sandbank (they often do), this slim fin keel gets full weight of the boat. Also, the keel needs to protect the rudder. Fin keel have been en vogue now for 30 years (and I don't know why, frankly). Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria - mostly fin keels. But masses of fin keel boats are produced by these companies (they even produce in the USA and AUS) to summer rentals; they are flooding the market, pricing out good bluewater boats, and making the construction of true bluewater boats uneconomical.
I don't know if you've seen it; but there's an American couple who bought at auction a 50ft Beneteau that had hit the keel after the coast! The damage was similar to that of your boat. They themselves did the work which basically consisted of stripping the gelcoat up to 1.50 / 2 meters from the cracks and gluing fiberglass, a lot of fiberglass up to 1 centimeter thick! A crazy job that creates a lot of dust and is extremely long and tedious! But hey, a priori; it can be done well if you have the courage.
Brett and Jade Evans did a really impressive job repairing their boat. They are now sitting in Barcelona making a custom hard dodger. I had a little personal interaction with them and they couldn’t be nicer. Not to mention very skilled. You might try reaching out to them.
Those keels are extremely dangerous, especially on an ocean crossing. You are SO LUCKY you found it out now. Nothing beats an incapsulated keel but unfortunately, only Kraken makes boats with an incapsulated keel that isn't a full keel. The next best thing is a keel with a keel box like Moody and Hunter does. This type of keel you have is for racing, not ocean crossing. It is very dangerous as it's very hard to keep it on the boat. So many of these have come off. In my opinion, you need to fix it, then sell the boat and get a non-racing boat to go cruising with.
I'm sorry you are going through this but keep us updated and thank you for an opportunity to learn from your experience. Hopefully the saying what don't kill make you stronger will prevail here!
Thank you very much for your comments, wishes, kind words and advice. That helps us and we learn something new every day. 😊
Thanks for the tip - just for information. It’s not a Beneteau.
@@troys5716
All materials have their good and bad points. Being a career fisherman I’ve worked steel, ALUMINIUM and fibreglass boats so know all their foible’s, and one thing u can do with an ally hull is TIG a new section in, to replace the old. Fibreglass on the other hand is a whole different ball game, and having repaired a fibreglass trawler, I know which I’d rather repair.
Still it’s not our problem, it’s this poor couple’s nightmare.
Let’s hope it can be resolved quickly with as less stress as possible ✌️&❤️🇬🇧👍
Hey guys Sailing Aurora repaired their Hanse after a hard grounding and cracked girder - damage looked similar to yours. Perhaps he has some advice about what it takes to get a damage like this repaired. Whom to talk to. Good luck.
Watching another channel, I would assume you grind 6 inches to a foot on each side of the damaged area. Lay in three or four layers of progressively wider strips of fiberglass and epoxy a lot of strength and all the epoxy bonding into the old structure will secure the crack. The big problem is getting everything out of the way, if you see the crack on the outside, you could repair that also in the same method, the people I saw working on a boat were doing it in a controlled environment as you need optimum temperatures to cure the fiberglass and epoxy resin. I think the space they were renting cost hundreds per day and even doubled, when the landlord decided he had more demand for the space.
@@redwood6737 thanks for your thoughts!
I'm a naval architect. To cool you down, it is repairable. But the salon will have to be completely dismounted. Don't do anything yourself, it is clearly a yard failure. If you do anything yourself, the yard might say that you made the damage when dismounting. Contact your insurance and if any possible get an certified surveyor. Not a boatbuilder, a certified surveyor is needed. The damage is huge indeed and there will most probably be more cracks than are visible now.
As an amateur boat builder (46' ketch) and Insurance Co risk manager I feel the above advice is 101% SPOT ON CORRECT.
Good luck, don't give up, it will all work out in the end.
as a guy with zero experience I can say the advice offered here seems correct. Definitely the part where you don't move forward and have the yard claim you caused it. This is heart breaking but becomes a chess board now. Good luck.
Great advice! By my eye, the failure is a disbond between the hull and the composite rib that carries the keel loads up. It is possible that the disbond is a secondary problem, and the rib itself has been flexed but not actually damaged, the crack might be just between the hull and the rib bond line, . It is clearly yard damage from the mishandling. Much more inspection is needed, as the great comment above says. Also, don't listen to the comments about "blue water" fitness, after a good inspection, you will know much more. I also do not think you should sign anything with a lawyer, it might not b necessary if the insurance company does its job, and also might take repair money away that you will have to replace from savings.
Do this
Thanks for your help! Sounds professional.
Many viewers may disagree with me, but I think you were fortunate that the keel issues developed ashore rather than at sea. I say this based on 50 years of sailing experience and many miles of blue water sailing. It is my opinion that your boat is not suitable for deep water sailing. Everything about her underbody screams closed course racer not blue water cruiser. The keel posses a real risk at sea for several reason. To get sufficient righting moment the designer or builder choose to have a very deep and narrow keel with all of the ballast hanging in a bulb from the bottom. This gives the maximum benefit of the weight to ratio analysis but places huge loads on the area where the keel attaches to the hull. Because they elected to have a narrow keel, to reduce drag, the footprint where the keel attached to the hull is very short, thus localizing the load. So all the forces are concentrated in a vey small portion of the hull. Imagine striking a partially submerged container or other object while sailing at 9 knots. The forces on the keel/hull joint would be substantial ; in fact enough to tear the keel right off. Please see the tragic case of Cheeki Rafifi). Even a simple grounding could do substantial damage resulting in flooding or possible sinking.
The hull on vessels like your are thin by design to reduce weight . However they do not have sufficient strength to support the keel loads. So the builder construct a grid inside the bilge in an attempt to spread the loads. This works until the grid is overloaded, then the grid breaks away from the hull. That is exactly what you have seen in your bilge.
Other issues I have with the design, which in my opinion makes it unsuitable for blue war work is the sail drive and the rudder. The hull to drive joint is problematic as there is a gasket between the two which can fail to do either a collision or age. If so the boat is flooded. The rudder is unprotected and if it is struck by a submerged object can break away or shear the rudder post leaving the boat without steerage. I encountered a boat 300 miles from the Azores which had the rudder torn off. They had no choice but to abandon her in mid-Atlantic.
In my opinion a proper offshore boat has a keel with internal ballast, a drive shaft which exits the keel and is protected by it, and a rudder on a skeg. True many vessels like yours have crossed oceans but for me the risks are too great and the downside too steep. Repairing the damage will not correct the basic design flaws. My advice is to collect what you can from the insurance carrier and the boatyard and go find a proper sea going yacht.
Captain RM Granafei, s/v INUK, Contest 38s
Thank your for taking the time to share your thoughts and expertise! We appreciate that 🙏
@patandfrankie The previous comment about the problems with boats like this is exactly correct. Unfortunately there is no way young people like you should have known this. So many boats are built like this. The keel, the hull grid, the saildrive, the spade rudder are all Achilles heels and inappropriate for circumnavigators and downwind sailing.
I'am 40 years on boats. This comment is uttery true, unfortunately...!
We are grateful for any input and it is always good to listen to different options and make up your own after reflecting. There is always something to learn ..
An absolutely beautiful boat. It’s a great coastal racer.
Finding that problem before you cross the Atlantic is not a disaster it may have saved your life
Beat me to the punch.
I think so too! You are alive everything will be ok. You just need time ti think.
IT'S LIVES, geezer : )
@@michaelfraser5723 Not If he was only talking to one of them. Oh, and before you say there's still two of them, that doesn't matter as life or lives would be correct.
@michaelfraser5723 , all you can do is make a fuzz about life or lives? What a beautiful life you must have...
1st - Call insurance company. 2nd - Insurance company will send an surveyor. 3 - Chances are the insurance company will total out the boat. You get a check and walk away. 4 - If the insurance company does not total out the boat... you need a marine architect/engineer who has dealt with this type of damage before. Then the insurance company will tell you to get estimates for repair. PS - I'm Andy Bogaart from Bogaart Boats and have dealt with this myself on my boat. I hired David Gerr to advise on the process to repair even though I have a lifetime of experience. Hopefully they total it out and you walk away with a check.
Thanks for your thoughts Andy!
@@patandfrankie Andy's advice is excellent. Let the insurance company pay you out, and then they will sue the boatyard to recover their loss, to whatever extent possible. But YOU will be free from the anguish that is inevitable if you continue to own the boat. You will be standing in the middle of an insurer and the yard who both wish to limit their costs. That is not a good place to be. Simplify the process for your mental health - step away from this mess that is not your fault.
This is,the correct plan . I'm sure you love your boat.But if the insurance company will totally take the check
@@rws210
David Gerr? Does he have a brother called Nick? you know.... say his full name and you will get it
Hi guys, I am reading a lot of comments on here which are just ludicrous and rubbish. For starters deal purely with your insurance company, they are the one who will arrange a survey for damage of the boat and ultimately pay for the repairs. They will also chase the boatyard (who appear at fault) for the repair costs. This is why you pay insurance. Yes it will be a big repair and will take some time but it can be repaired to like new. Best advise I can give and I do have some experience in this area is document everything and I mean everything from conversations with the boatyard to calls to the insurance company. Photograph everything. !!!! Don't undertake any work till authorization has been given by the insurance company. If you have coverage that we used to have then emergency accommodation should also be covered. PS get everything in writing or emails. Don't take anyone's word for anything.
I Totally Agree... DOCUMENT EVERYTHING!
I agree as well. Document and work with your insurance company. Make sure they send a surveyor. It’s not a complicated fix per se, bulk head delamination. I am not sure it’s really the boat yards fault either. They should also be insured. Make sure your insurance company works with the boatyard insurance company before undertaking any work. All bills should be taken care of by the insurance company minus any deductible. As other commenters have written, the keel needs to come off. The interior around the bulkheads needs to come out. The gelcoat needs to be removed on both sides to reveal the fiber skin. Sand down to get a good skin overlap. Create a nice epoxy fillet with colloidal silica thickened epoxy. Inject the resin underneath each bulkhead. Put pressure on the outside. Epoxy should squeeze out. Even the fillet before it cures. ( use a very slow hardener). Laminate the inside with great overlap, alternating Matt and structural fiber cloth. Squeeze out any air with a roller and squeezy. Once cured, work on the outside. I recommend reading through material on how to do this work correctly. Correct surface preparation work is essential for a good repair. Get professionals to do the work, but oversee the procedure. I think it could be done in 2-3 weeks max.
@JS-di9qg Thanks for giving us some tipps! Really helpful!
@gregharding7329 Thanks for your helpful words. This is really something we that will make the process easier and more fair. 🙏
YES! And remember the insurance company wants to save themselves money$
NEVER EVER walk under a suspended load, unless you want to die....
right?????
I clicked on this while rolling my eyes because so many UA-camrs use such dramatic titles when nothing dramatic happened at all. Unfortunately yours was the exception. Our heart goes out to you. I know how anxiety provoking haul outs can be. It's a difficult time when you are not in control of your boat. I hope you get a settlement from your insurance soon and can again move forward.
Thanks for you supporting words. Your comment made us smile!
It might be wise to be careful with all of the public disclosure of what is going on. The boat yard while possibly at fault will not take kindly to being put under the spotlight in a negligent way which could force their lawyers to issue stop orders on your postings. Let the insurance company do its thing and don't publicize any blame. Especially if this channel is a significant part of your income. Cheers and Good luck. s/v Wild Rover
Thanks for your help! We do not want to spread blame or accuse but try to share it with an analyzing neutral position. It’s definitely not our attempt to talk badly about anyone. This is part of our life which we share and we want to be as mindful as possible while talking about this circumstance.
Sometimes a setback is God's way of protecting you from something worse. Bless y'all.
If by just settling the yacht down it broke the problem is with the design,no way would I go to sea let alone cross the Atlantic in a tub that is so easily broken 😢
When we were in Trinidad we met a couple who's keel had fallen off mid ocean. The boat sank in under 2 minutes. The only think that saved them was the auto inflate life raft. The keel had a crack a few years before and had been repaired at a boat yard. If you decide to fix this boat, get a marine engineer to look at the issue and give you a layup schedule. Don't use eyeball engineering on something this critical. But if crossing oceans is your goal, consider taking the insurance money and buying a boat with a stronger, integrated keel.
The story is heartbreaking to hear and really gets to us .. thanks for taking the time to share
The keel & mast having to be removed from your boat will give you a good inspection of the keel bolts and condition of your rig atleast. The repair/reinforcement should go at least 500mm forward and aft of where the keel ends.
Also, if you do repair it, I would add considerable reinforcement to the area. That type of keel is prone to this sort of damage because it has such a small area that it attaches it places a lot of stress on a very small portion of the hull. Especially considering the blue water cruising you are doing, I would not only repair what was there but I would add additional “stringers/bulkheads” to the grid to help spread the load better and mitigate against this in the future. Also use stronger materials in the repair. Dont just use mat and roving, you want to use a biaxial fabric like 1708 which will add considerable strength without adding too much weight.
@@andrewnajarian5994 Expedition Evans added 4 to 6 layers of 1708 to theirs using epoxy resin.
@@jackdbur yeah, they really did a nice job, but their boat also has a shoal keel that spreads the stress along a larger area of the hull.
What a lot of people don’t realize is the hull really has very little strength in and of itself. The grid is really what provides all the strength to the boat which is why I would suggest adding on to the grid to spread that stress over a greater area of the hull.
The design of the keel looks so fragile and exposed to damage. I could not feel comfortable on a sailboat with that design. No sailboat is exempt from damage, but a full keel helps me sleep better at night. Good luck. S/V Cork~Texas 🇺🇸⛵🐬🐕
It is probably more fragile than others with its performance oriented design, but we were very trusting with her.
All the best to you too!
I thought exactly the same thing. What a horrible keel design, no way I’d trust that thing. Get rid and get a full keel boat.
@@smartenglishjpfull keels suck horribly. They are great for grounding but appalling for sailing. It's a sailing boat not a grounding boat. The problem here is not that the boat is a fin keel, but that it is a very poorly engineered and constructed fin keel. That doesn't mean all fin keels are bad, but can say without problem that all full keels sail like bricks because they do.
Pretty standard design for a modern boat.... Perfectly safe
@@frankling9840 I like fin keels. But the modern practice of bolting them through the hull which is then reinforced with a grid is not sound. Some bodybuilders, such as X-yachts do a much better job with the keel bolted through a metal frame. Still others have the keel connected via a wide flange or a deep socket.
Call youtube channel Expedition Evans. They bought their boat in that condition and had to rebuild it from bottom up to fix all the structural issues from running aground at cruising speed by previous owner. So sorry this happened to you two. Hope you can get it fixed.
Thanks for the tipp, they will probably have some lessons learned!
This is an excellent advice, in deed one can learn a lot from the Evans case!
Expedition Evans. Detailed videos of in-depth repair of grid to hull damage. Nice, fun people too.
@@patandfrankieAlso remember that in the Caribbean you Can Not follow American boats their keel is shorter than yours!
@@patandfrankieCheck out a series of videos titled "Sailboat Rebuild" on Sailing Aurora's channel. Their new Beneteau was grounded by someone who chartered it from them. The entire grid was rebuilt very much like Expedition Evans was, but since the repairs were covered by insurance, the work was performed professionally in Sweden. If I remember correctly, it was around 70k USD. I'd encourage you to watch each video in the series as it documents the repair done in a way you should require from your insurance
Sorry about the mishap. Our hearts go to you. We tend to agree more with the comments that a positive side of this mishap is that it happened in the boatyard rather than in the middle of the ocean with storms. I remember when our boat was in the boatyard, the main weight was on the keel sitting on wood blocks, the sides were supported by cradles. I suppose the keel section of the boat should be able to withdtand a lot of stress. Just imagine in the storm with massive waves hitting the boat from different directions, kock down and right up again. The strength of the keel section would be the key to survive in such conditions. Also we saw a lot of damaged boats on the sides after a hurricane on both land and in shallow water. Most would still maintain the integrity of the keel section despite the stress of falling and grounding during the hurricane. I know this may not lessen the gravity of the situation in any way, but just hope to shed a ray of positive light of the event. We all know you most likely could survive a demasting mishap but unlikely in a dekeeling one. Best wishes.
Your Insurance Company will send a Marine Surveyor to access the damage. Praying it's repairable and your Insurance Company will contact the yard for details on the haul. Best of luck with a favorable solution, truly HEART WRENCHING. God Bless!
Thanks for your empathy! 🫶
This frame separation should not have happened even though it looks like the frames are only glued and not tabbed. I suspect this is structural damage that occurred some time in the past from grounding at speed and it finally let go when the boatyard side loaded the keel. The keel attachment should be strong enough to take the full weight of the boat without the hull flexing so much that the stringers and frames detach. The keel is going to have to come off for repairs and to let the hull take back its original shape. The boat is not a right off but the repairs will take several months in a good boat yard. Good luck!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts .. it’s really strange as we don’t know about and grounding and do trust the previous owner. We’ll never know the complete history but now we’ll deal with this the best way possible
Unfortunately this isn’t uncommon, from what I’ve seen it’s common on beneteaus I’ve seen this a lot. When they put the boat down on its keel, the boat should just roll forward a bit, not pop the grid. The boat has to be able to rest it’s weight on the keel and it’s structure. Given the keel shape, I suspect there may have been previous issues brewing and this haul out was just the last straw!
Totally agree. The so called grid was nothing more than a pre-produced frame that was glued to the hull. It is clear from the pictures that the separation of the grid from the hull is in a straight clear cut line. Meaning that it was glued to the hull, not tabbed. The proper construction would have been to epoxy the grid to the hull, then lay over multiple layers of cloth in various directions to ensure the grid was well bonded and capable of handling the loads. To do the repair properly will require removing most of the salon interior , removing the existing grid, grinding down the bilge surface to ensure good bonding, construction of a grid, bonding it in place, fill and fairing it smooth, priming , and painting the entire area, Then rebuild the interior and the floors. To do so you need the proper tools, materials, and a place to live while the boat is in the yard undergoing repair. The effort and costs will be substantial. And what do you have in the end? As I noted in my comment, you have in my opinion a boat not designed for off shore sailing. It is a sad and heart breaking situation but please don't compound your loss with an attempt to repair that boat if your intention is to sail off shore.
These poorly constructed boats are keeping thousands of boatbuilders around the world in work, many thanks.😂😂😂
@@robertgranafei2781as a oatbuilder of 40 years' experience here in N.Z., I agree. Is it a Beneteau? These boats are built for charter work in the Med, mainly. They often take a hammering in the hands of drunken hirers. They are often sold after three seasons, because of ongoing structural issues.
To go offshore in these boats is foolhardy. They look nice, have wine fridges and a.c. but structurally they are extrefragile.
Placing weight on the keel in this manner is not unusual, and will not result in a popped grid in awell- built boat.
From what I see, if this boat was here in N.Z., it would probably be a write off.
My advice to the owners is to seriously consider this prospect. Get a surveyor, be firm with your insurance assessor, and remember that a boat is not a family member, it is a tool.
Good luck.
I've ran my old Hunter aground many times. One time was really bad and the boat was new to me. It took TowBoat US 3 hours to pull me off. I took at quick look at the keel box and all seemed good. I sailed on it for another 2 years before it's next haulout which is when we discovered the keel box was cracked. It had a very slow leak, like 1 gallon every month. It cost 3K to have the fiberglass repaired. I kept that boat for another 14 years sailing her 40K miles offshore after that repair and did the Bahamas, Gulf of Mexico many times in bad weather, the all parts of the Caribbean sea and the south Pacific. Sold it in Fiji and got a Whitby 55 which has an encapsulated fin keel. I will never buy a boat that doesn't have an encapsulated keel or a keel box.
Wow, first of all it’s very impressive how much experience you have gained and miles you’ve sailed, that’s our dream to spend that much time on the ocean 😌. Good that you were lucky with the scenario and the repair.
@@patandfrankie It's an awesome dream and we will be going out again in a couple of years....we miss it a lot. There are tons of cruisers out there with hundreds of thousands of miles under their keel(s) so in a way I'm still a newbie but I had a really good mentor and I like to spread what knowledge I have. I've been in your shoes but not as bad, however, I know how you are feeling now. It feels really bad. Just remember 1 thing: you didn't die, you will live and you will learn from this. Your cruising plans most likely are going to be delayed a year but use that to your advantage. Don't rush it as that can get you in worse trouble. Take this year to learn more about boats, what they are made for, and what you will be doing.
Thanks for the uplifting and understanding words! We’ll try to see the best in this situation (even though its something not easy, as you know..) 😉
You ran your old Hunter aground " many times " No charts ? Using the force ? Seriously?
@@fredbugden3511 In Texas and the Gulf coast there are lots of sand bars that are not on the charts.
Hi Guys, My 41' yacht suffered similar damage and it was repaired stronger than before! In my case the back of the keel was pushed upwards and broke numerous supporting joints inside the hull. The damage took six weeks to repair, but only because I managed the different repair trades myself rather than give the entuire project to one boatyard company. We had to remove all the interior furniture, which was difficult as the cupboards are fitted together in the factory and then put into the boat as a complete new unit. We also had to take the keel off and replace the bolts with new as they may have been damaged when the keel moved. Because the keel was to be removed, the mast had to also be removed beforehand. It required a professional marine surveyor to inspect the damage and approve the repairs. I then used different tradesmen to do different jobs. The repair took one month, but only because it was at my home port, I knew all the tradesemen and managed the different repair trades myself - it still cost over £20,000. In your case, being in Tenerife, it will be more challenging, so you must use an independant marine surveyor and I am afraid that you will not be able to remain on board whilst the work happens as everything has to be removed in the saloon and it it is a major structural work to the hull - with lots of dust. My advice is get a marine surveyor as soon as possible and allow months of delay. By the way, my yacht was repaired in 2014 and is still sailing well! It will be fine to sail across the Atlantic if repaired properly. Good luck.
Thank you very much for your message and the description of your damage. It all sounds very similar. We are currently uncovering all the damage, but everything is taking a little longer than expected. We have also called in surveyors to be really sure. At the moment, it sounds like we're facing something similar to what you're facing. However, we are very pleased to hear that everything went well for you and that your yacht is still sailing very well. We'll try to keep you up to date here.
Thanks!
I went throug something similar in Barcelona Spain a few years back during covid and still have nightmares about it. My one advice to you is : Do no trust the yard one bit and get a independant survey before you touch anyting.
We try to do it like that. Thank you!
preferably a insurance certified surveyor so nothing can be questionned later on
Just found your channel. First I’m sorry to see this happen to yall. I worked at a yacht service repair facility for 15 years and still work on boats, yachts to this day even though I changed career paths many years ago. I’m not saying it can’t be repaired, I’ve repaired many damaged yachts that had similar and way worse damages. The issue with your repair in particular is the weight of the keel. The lead keel is extremely heavy and the hull needs to be repaired to support it. Finding the right person for that job will be the challenge. That’s not a repair the typical DIY or back yard boat builder can fix. To be done properly is going to take a lot of time. I wish you guys nothing but the best.
Thank you!
It`s a 500 hrs fix, but completely doable. Very important that the hull is neutral during fix, so rig, keel and rudder needs to be taken out
Just sold my 4th Beneteau and I am writing a book: life after selling your sailboat. Many more peaceful days and less stress. All the best to you.
Thanks! All the best to you too
That's obviously the boat yards responsibility! Their insurance has to pay to get this fixed!
Here in scandinavia keel issues are very common as we have many stones in the water. Hence, the damage you have is a very common one. Keel must come off, all furniture and floor off. Then the bulkheads and structural items will be grinded down and new glass etc will be layed. Depending on the repair - it may be stronger than before.
Well good to hear it’s nothing that unusual .. Do you mean grinder down till the crack?
@@patandfrankie let me find you a typical repair from Finland/Sweden … just a second… will search. Our own keel also had work done, but we have an older boat so it was less dramatic as it was built much stronger with s and e glass… And yes, whoever does the repair will grind down as much as possible in order to lay new material… Link will follow. You may want to check with boatyards in Sweden or Finland who do these works routinely.
@@patandfrankie
ua-cam.com/video/8X-Nb9-pbfU/v-deo.htmlsi=1hc-xYad2_DkyBQn
ua-cam.com/video/C3RzxLW7t1U/v-deo.htmlsi=8QB6siM2ZlsSi1GQ
ua-cam.com/video/tG5jUQXUGLk/v-deo.htmlsi=buSgKcB6XuRtDNpH
@@patandfrankie I sent you 3 links of a boat repair in Sweden very similar to what you have … Have a look, plus that will give you an idea of the expense and work needed.
@@patandfrankie
ua-cam.com/video/8X-Nb9-pbfU/v-deo.htmlsi=1hc-xYad2_DkyBQn
ua-cam.com/video/C3RzxLW7t1U/v-deo.htmlsi=8QB6siM2ZlsSi1GQ
ua-cam.com/video/tG5jUQXUGLk/v-deo.htmlsi=buSgKcB6XuRtDNpH
Have you looked at 'Expedition Evans?' They bought a boat that had been grounded at speed - keel rotated - hull damaged. It took the removal of layers, re-tabbing the keel and the box-grid, and hours of glassing and grinding. In the end the hull was much stringer than factory. Options - major rebuild or claim the insurance and buy a blue water capable boat. Either wya, thank your God this didn't happen in mid Atlantic heavy storm seas.
True, thanks for your words. We are watching them
As the cracks were being found I was thinking "Expedition Evans" as well. The repair will require extensive dismantling of the interior just to gain access to the problem area. As unfortunate as this situation is it very well could have saved them from a tragedy at sea. I hope this turns out well for them.
Hi I work as surveyor and I know very well that boat. To repair you have to investigate with ultrasound and endoscope camera. The best solution is to remove the mast and the keel to release any tension in the hull and from the cradle. Grind and laminate properly. The boat will be stronger. Feel free to contact if you need assistance.
Hi, thanks for your message and the information. We are currently in the process of uncovering the full damage, also with the help of surveyors, and then discussing the repair measures. But it seems to be going in a similar direction as you suggested.
I'm so sorry for this unfortunate event. Putting load on that type of keel is wrong. This is a fin keel designed for speed, not load bearing like a full keel. The keel will have to be removed, and the hull repaired and reenforced structurally. With the right repairs it can be stronger than new. I would have a conversation with the boat maker and get input if possible. Hopefully the insurance comes through and gets you back on the water. My thoughts are with you two.
Thanks for your thoughts.. we’ve heard that from several people - the wrong weight placement on a torpedo keel and that it can come back stronger 😉
We are trying our best to get her back in shape
@@patandfrankie Thinking you could well be now in the Hands of those Insurance, ''Underwriter'' Gods, whereby THEIR and by default their assessor /surveyor, could well look at this Damage and even see same as a Total loss, thereby writing off this craft by Paying out for the total insurable risk that your Insurance Company has tasked those Underwriters to put into effect for this Policy, so doing so then they i presume would later then i suppose go after the Marine Facilities liability Insurance cover for this charge , at a later stage... Whether or which i feel your Pain, and hope things go O.K. I would have worked fitting engines into Production Sloops, in a Boatyard, and saw how GPR Laminators laid down Hulls in those Moulds, i would reckon no mater what repair or solution that some folk could come up with , I wouldn't think once a boat is damages things then do become sketchy, as one may ask, could have the craft Re - Insured, as Insurance Companies do not like to deal with problem cases but that's they way of Commerce, or even if it were to to be repaired then could it suffer a depreciation as to the actual resale cost of your craft all this would need to be asked, it's early days yet in this Journey, Stay Strong, but you may have to get your OWN Marine Loss adjuster, to take you through what your options are , as you might need to have someone on, Your Side... Best Wishes.
Thanks for your wishes and supportive words!
@@patandfrankie Don't forget you have the option of a cash settlement of the claim if you're determined to keep and repair the boat but the insurer wants to write it off.
Stay strong guys. You’re a lovely couple and this too will pass. Sailing is equal measures of pain and joy - at sea and on land. Handle this setback with patience and care because it will be an indelible part of your life’s log and how you deal with it together can and must become a net positive in your adventure.
Thanks for your nice and supportive words! Very wise 😌
I've worked in a factory building prestigious motor yachts where the 'grid' is bonded to the hull. This has been standard in the industry for many years now. It appears in your video (though extra zooming in would help) the bonding paste has separated from the grid but remains on the hull. Yes, it is serious as others have pointed out. The entire structural integrity is now lost and the boat no longer stiff. It will not handle the rig loads either. I have sailed a boat with a similar condition but only inshore. Over 15 knots the boat was flexing when sailing into a short choppy sea. It could be repaired as Expedition Evans proved but this is a major undertaking. Definately get a surveyor whos recommended by your insurance company before proceeding.
Thanks for your input! We are in close contact with a surveyor and will go for professional help!
@@greenfuture578 sounds correct. what responsibility does the builder have? Whether it’s still under warranty or not it seems to be a design or manufacturing issue. A slight tilt in the sling shouldn’t cause the grid to separate from the hull, one would think. Depends on the degree of tilt I suppose.
@@deepeddysf The builder could be responsible however, since all boats are built this way these days how can anyone claim against the builders. Definately a yard issue as the boat was not placed correctly on its keel leading to 'point loading' on the aft end of the keel bulb. The weak link in modern boats is the bonding paste method of joining grid to hull. the component parts...hull, grid and deck are massively stiff. Vecuum resin infusion produces very, very stiff components when the correct layup is used. The bonding fails when an applied force causes the parts in different directions.
Makes sense. I believe the xyachts boats that have a steel grid bolted to the hull may be better than the rest.
@@deepeddysf Thats correct. My Hanse 461 has a steel grid too. Hanse produced a line of boats built with steel grids and epoxy infused hulls. Very stiff. They are significantly cheaper than X yachts making them excellent value for money on the second hand market.
My heart goes out to you both. I wish all the best with this problem.
Just want to point out one more thing: read up on fixing fiberglass. When fiberglass is being laid, it is going through a chemical bond. Most boat companies use polyester resin as it is the cheapest and bonds well with jelcoat but it has the weakest bond. When you are repairing cured (old) fiberglass, the resin can only do a mechanical bond which isn't as good. So, you will hear all the time that the repair is stronger than it was when it was new, but that can be misleading. The initial bonding of new glass to old glass is mechanical and weaker than the original chemical bond. That is why good fiberglass repairs has the new glass being laid from both sides and touching each other so give it at least some chemical bond but the attachment to the old glass is going to be mechanical and therefore not as strong. If it is repaired, insist on epoxy resin as it has a lot stronger mechanical bond.
That’s very helpful, thanks!
I can only say repair it, sell it at an acceptable price and look for a smaller, but seaworthy ship. With a moderate, strong keel, a triple-mounted rudder on a skeg and a hull speed of around 7-8 knots max. This will take you around the world for years. Everything else is playing Russian roulette.
Epoxy resin is the ONLY resin to use on repairs such as this. And should be bagged or infused
So sorry for your misfortune. I've had many setbacks in the last three years I've been sailing a new to me boat. I swear, every boat wants to sink itself, and it's all you can do to keep that from happening. Hopefully this episode makes your channel blow up!!
Took the Evans 3 years to drop the keel rebuild all stringers. They over built it to last forever, not a bad thing. They made you tube videos of the whole process.
Thanks sharing, we’ll search for that!
It took them plus of 6 months of full-time working to reinforce their whole keel grid area. They had to pull the whole interior from the front wall to the engine bay. They added a minimum of 4 layers of heavy biaxial glass.
What a tremendous job ..
Mechanical engineer thats specialized in composite structures and offshore vessels here. DO NOT take Evans and their work as an example!!!!!!!! The little bit of tabbing that they did, and their methods of surface preparation and the ratio glass to resin are so wrong!
@@jackdbur The lengths they went to do not necessary reflect the quality of the repair. But it does show the hug effort required to compensate for those design compromises.
WOW...compelling content...at the very least...the new TV Miniseries "As the Keel Breaks!"
Something that I may have learned from this video is that the boatyard people may have lots of experience but there are thousands of designs and so the owner must know their own boat and how to move it better than anyone.
That is true. If you rely on someone you might be lost (even though it would be their job), so try contribute the best possible. Next time we will try to do a better briefing as well. We were really expecting that they would now how to handle the boat as there were no questions asked
You'd expect a boatyard to be able to slip a boat professionally and correctly, that's why you pay them the big bucks to slip. Quite simply they stuffed up.
@@clavertonyou’d also expect a boat to be able to sit on its keel a bit crooked and not immediately fall to bits! As should the shipyard. The twisting moment against the hull in this situation is considerably less than if they’d touched the bottom and boats MUST be able to cope with touching the bottom, even at speed.
@@PaulBKal this wasn't caused by it not being able to sit "a bit crooked" but by how the boat yard dropped it on the ground. This style of boat is hardly unusual ... just about every serious racing boat today has this style of keel and a professional boat yard should be perfectly familiar with how to handle it. Whether or not it is an appropriate design for cruising is a totally separate issue.
@@claverton what’s your basis for that. It’s neither explicit nor implicit from the video.
Yup, call the insurance company, take pictures and document the discharge of your boat - sorry to see this happen to you guys.
AS others have pointed out the grid has separated from the hull. It can be repaired. Here is a UA-cam channel that documents the process from start to finish. Work was done by professionals inside a work shop. SAILBOAT REBUILD is the series and Sailing Aurora is the name of the channel. I would think the marina would pay for the repair BUT contact your insurance and have them handle it. Good thing no one was injured.
Yes we were very glad that no one was injured! Which channel are you pointing out?
@@patandfrankie Sailing Aurora is the channel and SAILBOAT REBUILD is the title of the videos showing the work.
I am so sorry this happened to you...better days are ahead!⛵
Thanks 🙏🏻
Transatlantic skipper here, sailed in Arc 2015. There will be differing opinions on this, as you see from the comments. But I share the view that you probably dodged a bullet, so you should look on the bright side. Of course people cross oceans in coastal cruiser/racers like this, with fin keels and spade rudders, all the time. That doesn't change the fact that statistically they are far more prone to catastrophic failure (either of keel or rudder) in bluewater conditions. How much do you want to run the risk of losing the boat, possibly with only minutes to identify the problem and save your lives? Cheeki Rafiki, IdaLina, the list is very long. If you want to bluewater cruise, you will be much much safer in a boat with a stronger keel and rudder. In the Arc 2015, we had good friends who nearly lost their boat due to rapid water ingress when the rudder stock on their spade rudder loosened. There are so many other cases of lost boats - and lives - with these designs. You may need to shelve your plans for the crossing this fall, and instead make a longer term plan that does not run the same unnecessary risks. Good luck!
Thanks for your thoughts. May I ask you which boat you used for the crossing and which boat would you recommend?
@@patandfrankie We had an Amel, which we absolutely loved. Ketch, very sturdy keel and a skeg-hung rudder. Designed to be easy to sail for a couple. Would definitely recommend one of their boats if you are looking to switch. Honestly, if I were considering long-term bluewater cruising again, I would also seriously look at catamarans. Yes, they have their own challenges, but with the right type you don't have to worry about your keel falling off or rudder tearing a hole in the boat. And we saw so many catamaran cruisers enjoying really a high quality of life out there, while still sailing safely. But if we got another monohull, without a doubt it would be something like the Amel. Strong keel and well-protected rudder for the win.
I know exactly how you're feeling now - on the hard with major issues - it's not fun. People who watch these channels but who have never cruised don't understand the intense hard work and often heartbreak that go into this lifestyle. But remember it's a marathon, not a sprint. One step of the time, and you'll make that dream real. Just avoid the urge to rush and cut corners, which can lead you into taking risks you really don't need to take :)
Thanks for your insightful response and feeling with us!
@@patandfrankiethere is lots of boats build in traditional manner with long keel. Franz Maas Breeon, Spækhugger, Havsörnen II. Olle Enderlein and Hallberg Rassy constructions as well as British constructions.
Take your time and don't buy such vulnerable type of construction again...
Such a beautiful boat! So Sorry guys. ⛵
It’s very likely that the boatyard may have just bought a boat. It was their actions that caused the unnecessary pressure that separated the hull from the framework that structurally keeps the hull from collapsing in. If you insurance company has to pay for it they may actually decide it’s cheaper to settle and give you the cash for your boat. In both of these scenarios, you don’t have a boat until you find a new one. Expedition Evans actually bought a boat that seems to have been in the very same condition. Your boat is now in the same condition that sailing magic carpet got their first boat because the shipyard dropped a boat out of its slings and they bought it cheap to fix it up. In your case, though it’s already your boat so it’ll be the boat yards insurance company or your insurance company or some combination of the two of them will probably end up deciding whether the boat is a complete loss or not. If they decided it is a complete loss they’ll give you money and that’s what you’ll have, if they decide it can be repaired they would probably want a professional shipyard to do the repairs however they may be willing to give you a one time check to do the work yourself, but if it comes up short, they won’t give you any more money. If they should decide that it’s a total write off it’s unlikely that they would be willing to sell it back to you cheap after paying you for it. It would be more likely that they would want to put it up to auction so if you wanted it back, you would have to wait for it to get to auction and then to have the winning bid and then you still have to repair the boat. Not knowing how much you owe on the boat or if you own it out right I don’t know if you’d have enough cash to bid to buy it back. If you owe money on it, the bank will expect you to pay off the loan before you get any of the money from the insurance company and what’s left over may not be enough to win an auction. If you own it out right in theory, you should get more for the boat then it would sell for auction. Me personally if they give me a big check, I think I’m just getting a different boat. Good luck with whatever happens.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this ..
Don't walk, RUN away from this boat!
And if the winds head this way, perhaps reject the first two insurance offers but this is a great life lesson that nothing is ever certain, people scream at airports cause the flight was cancelled etc, If the captain says the plane ain’t safe, then that’s good enough for me, doesn’t help but maybe the ‘gods’ want you to have a slightly different path for whatever reason.. Clearly you’ve already had some special moments few ever get to see but i’m definitely hoping for all the best 💙 btw, you can never get enough video / photo evidence..
Thanks for your words!
These are not the overbuilt boats of the 60s anymore. They are boats are designed to be lightly used and replaced. That's the intent of getting into that kind of boat. Follow the design intent, find a new boat.
Exactly same thing happened to us 9 months ago in North Queensland, Australia. We sold the boat as a project within 2 days and moved on. Good luck whatever you decide to do, things will work out.
Yea looks like needs same procedure as Expedition Evans. Also last year Eric Aanderaa hit rock at speed, he got it fixed very fast but it cost $35,000.
USD 42000, whereof the insurance co covered 80%.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this. I’ve been living aboard my 2002 Hunter Marine Passage 450 since July 15, 2006. I can’t imagine having to handle this. From some of the expert comments, it seems this is repairable, but it would cost and at what delay?
May God bless you during this time and take away your anxieties and fears and give you peace and serenity.
Thanks for your kind words! Nice to hear you are also living aboard your boat 😊 Yes it is definitely a costly repair and takes quite some time.. All the best to you too!
Your story reminds me the one of Sailing Atypic. They lifted their catamaran to clean the hull and apply some decorative sticker, and they discovered huge structural damages. After a while they decided to put the boat back into the water, I think without fixing it. Please don’t do it like that…I cannot imagine all the things going through you head right now. While it’s only material damage, it is your house and your dreams. Unless you are committing to boatyard life for a while, I hope you’ll get enough money from the insurance to buy another boat. You need to have 200% confidence level into your boat for the crossing. I wish you all the best and this nightmare to be over as soon as possible.
Thanks for your empathy and feeling with us! It’s really like you said - our home and dreams and we feel quite lost at times. But we are definitely taking the best possible and most professional way we can!
I feel for you guys - I don't think it was the right boat configuration for your journey, but then I never expected my bilge keels and rudder skeg to push through my reinforced GRP hull on a drying sandy weekend mooring over a non-forecast force 6 stormy spring tide weekend from the worst of directions causing big swells - Shit Happens - though they appear to have messed-up please respect the boat yard crew as the was no obvious mal-intent, follow your Insurers lead, search for your next dream boat in case the damage is terminal - Console and enjoy each other on porcelain land - Looking forward to seeing smiles from adversity in your next video :)
As others have pointed out, the keel didn't fall off in the Atlantic somewhere
Thankfully not! That would have been a LOT worse.
Yet.
Hi.there is a tendency to put the bottom frame with bottom pieces in putty compound as glue and this is not so good because there is no full contact with the hull, it could easily have happened in the water over the Atlantic, in other words, your boats can be life-threatening in stormy weather. Frank
This is a totally amateur analysis. Be happy that you are alive and forget about crossing the ocean in this boat.
If your boat was gently lowered onto its keel and those cracks appeared, then it was previously damaged. Being a few degrees off vertical when set down would not cause this damage.
If I were you I would stop commenting on this incident. Just update your channel as you progress. You have already stated that you participated in the positioning of the boat. That won't help your legal position.
If you were just going to cruise in a bay during daylight and it could be economically fixed, then fix it. But to repair it to cruise in deep water would be insane. It's really the wrong style of hull even if it were in perfect condition. If you get an insurance settlement, put that money towards a boat that is better designed for your purpose and in better condition. Cruising sailboats absolutely need a complete survey before purchase. But if people are unlucky enough to keep selecting the wrong boat, then that can become a very expensive process. Personally, I would only consider sailboat blue water cruising in a new sailboat rated for that or in a used boat that passed inspection. Make no mistake about it. Your lives were just saved.
If that keel hit a whale or container or a shoal what do you think would have happened? For your intended use (not racing) consider a boat with an integrated keel. Not a bulb attached to a fin. When searching for a used boat people are definitely going to tell you it was NEVER run aground. How likely is that? Get a survey before purchase.
Good luck.
This looks just like the issue that Expedition Evans ran into with their Beneteau 50. They bought it as a total constructive loss and cut the salon floor out, reset the grid/frame back into place and then reinforced the structure and tabbed it back into place. It took them a while to get it all good and had a surveyor inspect it along the way so they could keep insurance on the boat.
It’s definitely structural, but it should not be to hard to fix, just needs to be done right
That's really important .. we are trying to get the best help possible
Way better to find the crack in on the hard instead of half way across the Atlantic. ❤
Hello you two, I hope that the damage can be repaired so that you can make your dream come true. We keep our fingers crossed for you.✊
Thanks for your support! ❤️🩹
everything can be repaired, its always a $$$ question
@@fluffi8161 and the worries while you are 2,000 miles from any land and the waves get big and the boat gets thrown around, you'll be asking yourself: will it hold?
@@FranklinGray no
I saw this video today but did not understand first what was the problem. Then I saw something happened when the boat was placed on the ground on its keel . Later when you showed the cracks inside the hull it seems to me that this must be some kind of construction mistake. In my opinion a boat must be able to stand on its keel. Anyway, I feel sorry for you for all the trouble you will have in this matter. One can only hope that you will not suffer economicly. I have seen some of your videos and they are very well done. I like your presentation. I will follow any further videos in this matter and any further videos of your sailing if there will be any. To me it looks that you have a huge probleme to restore the boat and make the construction safe. All the best to both of you.👍
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feedback on our videos. We hope that there will be more sailing videos to come. In any case, we don't want to give up. Nice to have you with us.
On production boats like yours. The innerframe in glued with high strength epoxy and not laminated to reduce production time. The stress caused the bonding to crack and detach. The keel must be disconnect. The inner frame should be relaminated to the hull and the hull must be inspected for delamination and eventually reinforced if so. Unfortunately its a big job and most of the saloon fornitures must be removed. The repair will make the boat much stronger since the inner frame will become monolitic to the hull like it should had been built in the first place. Unfortunately production boats are subject to fail under ubnormal strees since the are cheaply built. In my opinion boats should be engineered to withstand collision underwater or issues like yours but that would make the vessel more heavy and much more expensive. Don't use the shipyard but use an outside contractor specialist in composite with a reputable history. The yard to provide only logistics.
Thanks for your expertise and suggestion which we will think about!
It's usually a methacrylate used to adhere the structural floor to the hull, an acrylic based product that fails because it becomes brittle over time.
@patandfrankie this is an important point raised...most boatyards do not have the knowledge or capabilities to do this complex repair. It should be a 3rd party, insurance approved composite specialist company that works with structural engineers who will determine what weights of glass and what orientations. Only use a quality epoxy resin and make sure all repairs are bagged or infused.
I went with a 33' steel pilothouse cutter (Chatham 33 by Caroff) for my singlehanded circumnavigation in the high latitudes, north and south, because it was basically bullet proof. Paid $34K added $6K in extra equipment and sold it 5 years later for $40K. No regrets.
Sue them !!! they did a major mistake .. they set the supports in the wrong way and there was too much load on the keel .. come on!
We also believe that something went wrong in the process .. It’s become an insurance matter and things are going their way
@@patandfrankie is it sure?
Marinas have tendency to force you to sign over any liability before you event enter
Disagree, if she wasn’t strong enough for a slight eccentric loading, she sure wasn’t strong enough to go sailing in.
Of course If you go down the suing route, you won’t see an outcome for years.
@@markthomasson5077 I reckon this is correct. If they dropped the boat from about a foot high then it would have been their fault but the boat should be able to handle loading anywhere along the bottom of the keel. The boat is way too weak. If I was the yard I would be very hard at not giving any money for slipping a structurally inadequate boat - the boat should have been able to handle this.
Good luck, guys. I hope this difficult and strenuous situation can be sorted. You both don't deserve so much bad luck, but maybe it could have been worse with major structural problems out in the Atlantic. Look at each other and think to yourself, I still have the most important person in my life beside me. I will keep up to date to see how you both get on. In the meantime, you're both in my prayers. God bless. (John from the UK 🇬🇧).
Thanks John for your kind and supportive words! You are definitely right, we are safe and we have each other ❤️ All the best to you too!
So sorry!!! Crossing every finger, toes. And limbs that the insurance company and yard will come through and fix it all up for you and get you back on the water sooner rather than later. It is definitely possible to fix. Keep your spirits up!
Thank you so much for the positive energy 😊
If the yard is fixing it you need to inspect their work before they lay-up any fibreglass every time. Expedition Evens found that previous repairs were not fully ground out & that the adhesion was not good in areas. DO NOT let them use polyester resin for the repairs! 😊 vinyl ester or epoxy is the only way to go.
Thanks for that tip - we will start writing all advice down!
I've only ever owned long keel boats which are designed to rest on the keel. We actually had our own "legs" which we carried with us so in a drying harbour we could be safe.
I'm surprised that the yard expected to be able to allow this boat to stand on its keel without other supports and it's hardly surprising that it was damaged. Maybe the owners had done it before but certainly I would be interested to know if the designer intended the boat to stand on the keel.
Family of mine are avid ocean sailors and they refuse to cross the ocean with a bolted keel. The reason is simple and you have just stumbled upon it.
As others have stated: 'take what the insurance will offer you, be thankful you did not lose your keel in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, buy a boat that is ocean capable and then set out on your journey. This boat is indeed for coastal sailing and perhaps not even that.
I know it is difficult to accept, but I would like to ask you, sit back and relax and then think about if your lives are worth the money you will lose on this boat. Yes, you may lose money, but you will still have your lives. I was a SAR pilot for close to 10 years and have seen enough disasters of sailors who were not prepared for the journey and boats that should not have been out at sea at all. None of them lived to tell the story, we just recovered bodies..........if we could recover them in the first place.
Instead of seeing this as a bad sign, see it as something that saved your life, something that gave you a second chance, a second chance to do it right.
I know it hurts to lose your boat, but losing your life is far worse.
Thanks for your input and your concerns!
100% true. These boats are designed to be SOLD, not sailed for decades over open ocean.
That's nonsense. Traditional European boat building are with bolted long keel. A reliable construction proven it's worth during decades and millions of nautical miles in all sorts of waters.
I know it doesn't feel like it, but you're lucky. That boat was not fit for blue water. You found out in the yard, not at sea. Someone up there is watching out for you.
For what it is worth my recommendation would be to appoint a legal solicitor / attorney to represent your claim. both the ship insurer and the yard insurer will claim against each other. It may become a war of words. I feel sorry for your situation and wish you all the best, may there be calm seas and fair winds in your future.
Thanks for your input! As this processes we will see how the solutions finding will work and hope for smooth discussions. Same to you!
If the structure is weakened, check the rigging. It may well be slack, in which case it would be best to remove the mast before it falls off.
Thanks for your help!
Hope it turns out better than you think 🤞🏻
Thank you very much, we hope so too 🙏🏻
Please keep updates coming! My heart breaks w your hull
Thanks - of course we will.
Just watched your video! I‘m so sorry!! Please keep us updated on how it goes
Thanks for your words ❤ We will!
When you buy a used boat with a bulb and fin keel you don't know what happen to it before. A boat like that is very easy to go aground and the bulb will get suck in corals and sand bars, they it will be pulled out with a lot of pressure, so likely there was damage before this happened. The insurance company may not cover it.
Sad indeed. As others have mentioned I dont think its the yards fault and its an issue with the design of the boat or previous fatigue. Sitting the boat down on an uneven surface from a travel lift should not cause that to happen unless it was dropped....
It was not dropped but the lowering process was not performed well and what we’ve heard is that the torpedo keel is quite fragile when it comes to handling .. Thanks for your support!
@@patandfrankie It felt like the team was under pressure , possibly distracted and unprepared for a particularly risky keel situation which required particular care and expertise 😢
This isn’t the end of the world, guys. It looks like your floors (the transverse supports) have disconnected from the hull where they are tabbed in with fiberglass.
Sometimes this joint is made with an adhesive called plexus, sometimes it’s made with fiberglass tabbing, sometimes it’s made with both. The long story short is that it can be repaired.
The basic procedure is to gain access to the areas that need repair by removing furniture. Then, the gelcoat is removed to expose the raw fiberglass on any cracked structural components. At this point, after carefully cleaning the bonding surfaces, new fiberglass can be laid, usually using epoxy resin.
Your keel is very high aspect ratio and has a heavy bulb on the end. This is a great performance feature, but significantly increased and concentrates the forces on the reinforcing structure of your hull. I would recommend that you take zero chances when performing this repair. Make sure it is supervised by a professional that knows exactly what they’re doing. You may even consider contacting the initial builder to obtain and exact fiberglass layup schedule.
Good luck!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Your advice sounds really profound!
I’m sure at the end of the day two or more things will be the cause of the damage. That area of these modern designs has to be super strong picture sailing at 9 knots and you have hard grounding . Much of the force generated by the grounding goes to that area. Good luck may be a little rolling nowadays but smooth sailing will happen.
If the structure is so weak that putting the boat down not exactly strait causes thiis . Shows that its a design or building issue. Boat should be strong enough to handle that. Fibreglass boats with bolt on keels 😢
What we’ve been told problems can accrue with this type of torpedo keel when it is not handled correctly. But of course apart from that any boat should take their own weight when it gets placed corretly.
Agreed
@@patandfrankie It appears your torpedo keel was a time bomb; we're all happy this happened in a yard and not at sea.
This is so sad, it's almost as hard as losing a loved one, in some ways worse. Lean on your insurance company, weigh your options and remember to enjoy your health while you move on to the next chapter.
Wishing you the best.
Thanks for your wishes!
N
I predict the insurance company will total out this boat. There is no way they want to accept the liability and risk that even a professional repair will make the boat as strong as it was originally.
It wasnt strong originally.
This is what you get when they only glue the frames instead of using fiberglass etcetera. Another thing is that yachtbuillders are allowed to do this and still get a CE stamp on their yachts.
We were really astonish by this happening. Interesting getting to understand the structure more now and how everything works ..
My Dads double ended lifeboat that had been converted into a twin beam trawler sat on an old rotten wooden stage pile.
Which was just an old telephone pole that had rotted away into a point.
It came through the hull as the water ebbed away.
When the water came back she obviously didn’t float again.
We finally got her afloat with big pumps and many rags hammered into the crack which ran from the keel to the skeg on the starboard side, about 4’6” long.
We got her high and dry on the next tide which was a spring tide and I preceded to fibreglass over the crack on the inner hull just to stop any water ingress from the next tide.
I dug a hole like a grave in the mud which immediately filled with water and laid in it to get to the crack.
I used a 7” grinder to take off the gel coat and down into the original fibreglass, so the area was like a fuzzy fibreglass patch.
I ground away a good 6-8” either side of the crack and began the task of fiberglassing upside down.
Obviously I used twice as much resin as the other half was on me, but I did get 6-8 layers of fibreglass over the crack and bonded to the original hulls construction.
Being she was only a work boat and not a pleasure craft, a quick sand to take off the hairs and points left from my exploits.
Then she was given a thick coat of anti foul and called good.
She spent her last remaining fishing days as a cockle blowing beast, as she could blow better that boat twice her size and three times the horsepower.
So my friends, anything is possible.
The only thing holding u back is your abilities.
But I wish u the very best of British ✌️❤️&🍀, and a fair wind and following sea👍
Thanks for your story and wishes!
OK, deep breaths. This is clearly a big deal, and I would guess it will delay your crossing, but no one was hurt and things are stable right now. I agree your insurance company is your best bet. Hopefully their claims department will provide good service, but not all do. From your description of the incident the damage it was caused as the yard lowered the keel to the ground before the jack stands were positioned, and there may have been unanticipated stress on the keel because the angle wasn't right. Or, just too much weight was applied too quickly. In any case, the yard may well be at fault for the damage. Document everything while it's still fresh in your mind.
I would want the best engineer I could find to come inspect the damage ASAP, and see what evidence could be gathered about why the keel/hull connection failed. Your insurance company may have a good recommendation, but may not. I would cover the cost of the survey if necessary and worry about reimbursement later.
Since the yard may have been at fault, I would be leery of their recommendations for a survey, or preliminary treatment, until an independent analysis has been conducted.
I'm new to the channel, and don't know what type of boat you have, but active user groups often can be very helpful. Others may have experienced this problem, or know of successful solutions, and are usually very willing to help.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! You are absolutely right about making the best effort possible to get it repaired properly, especially as it’s not a holiday cruiser but our home that we want to cross oceans with.
It’s super overwhelming for us but we are in contact with many people, gathering opinions and advice and have contacted the shipyard Grand Soleil.
So far our insurance has been helpful and supportive in getting the process started. Let’s hope this stays like for the next steps!
@@patandfrankie OK, I see you have a Grand Soleil 46. Sorry you're having to go through this. Hopefully repairs won't be too painful, and that insurance will be paying the bill.
Thanks 🙏🏻 that’s what we are hoping too!
@@patandfrankie grand soleil 46 well dream sailboat for a world cruise
WOW! Sorry this happened to you! Such a Bummer! B.T.W. just discovered your channel & subbed. Looking forward to what Adventures lie ahead!!
Thanks for your support! It’s good to have you here 😊
hi, I see there a great possibility of hidden previous damage....
I don't think that damage was caused by supporting the boat by taking it down from the travelift.
It even seems very strange to me how the keel is and how you can see the groove in the outer recess of the hull.
It is a very complex situation that would not give me confidence (ever again)
Thanks for your thoughts ..
Hi, sorry to see your setback. Those mentioning a rethink on the style of keel do have a point, however that in itself doesn't solve much. While thinking about your problem had the thought that with the help of someone familiar with modifications, redesign the keel into a full length one. Most likely take an edge off her racing stats but depending on the design, would reduce local stress, add structural strength to the hull and reduce your draught. Guessing, but would most likely make her a little more stable in steering as well. Wishing you all the best.
Thanks for your words and your help!
I'm glad you're ok, that's the most important part. Had the keel been this damaged when you were out at sea it's likely it would have come off...... makes me shudder.
That’s true and were are glad we are in a „lucky“ environment in this situation .. unimaginable
That’s a tough time to have such a problem We discovered a crack in the sealant around the keel before leaving Plymouth for our Atlantic crossing . We had hit a rock going only very slowly but it had unseated the keel . We had no choice but to take the keel
Off and make a full inspection before deciding on repair method . Insurance company were quick about approving works . We did not have an assessor just two very experienced boatbuilders . We did not find any hull cracks just one pair of loose keel bolt. Removing the keel took 4 hours quite a brutal operation which did damage the hull pocket and that had to be repaired .The whole job took a month . We were much happier/confident after it was done . Looks like the structural grid/frame which connects hull and keel has been damaged on your boat and that will need all joints grid beams inspected and those that are cracked /damaged repaired re-tabbed and strengthened . Unfortunately it’s going to be a lengthy repair , but you’ll make it ok. We made it across Atlantic last November currently in Trinidad . Wishing you best of luck and a speedy repair from Trinidad . 👍🏻😎
Thank you so much. It's great that you were able to repair your damage so quickly and well. Maybe we so you out there 😊
I hope you get it fixed. I’m a new subscriber and I am so surprised this happened to you.
Thanks! Great to have you with us!
@@patandfrankieI hope you get it fixed.
It's natural to blame they yard, but IMHO, the defect was already there, it just manifested itse of at the yard. Be glad it happened on land and not at sea.
Thanks for your thoughts.. we are glad it could have been even worse
I am sorry to be pessimistic. I do not agree that this boat can "certainly be repaired" to anything significantly stronger without significant, likely impractical, design changes. Obviously, I am not there, to observe damage nor estimate loads based upon the totality of the design. However, it appears that the design is very similar to two vessels with which I have more familiarity. A low-speed (about 3 kts) impact, at low tide, with a rocky bottom here, in Stonington, CT, by one of them ( a smaller boat (36-ft) but apparently very, very similar) resulted in the aft portion of the keel, fastened to the integral, internal grid structure, itself bonded to the hull, to shear through the hull, taking the grid structure with it. The boat, which began sinking within minutes, was very close to a marina and, miraculously, a Towboat US rescue boat was less than 1 minute away. The owners bought it new, and told me this incident was their first grounding, and it was very non-traumatic, described as "a sort of bumping", which stopped, while they slowed and, then, recovered forward speed. They noticed the water intrusion and called the nearby rescue boat. Repairing it to the original inferior specs seems ridiculous, obviously. Strengthening the boat I inspected, in my opinion, requires significant dimensional alterations- which in that shallow hull, would reduce the headroom undesirably, as that grid had no room for a truss- based design, extending, as necessary, throughout the hull to reduce the local loading. Yes, the design was adequate, over almost a decade, for their local, benign sailing goals. But- obviously unsuitable for something as uneventful as nudging something hard, underwater. In your case: Of course your boat could be repaired to resemble the original design- which, for the purpose of "life support, with a safety margin" i.e. what is necessary for anything other than the sort of local sailing the above couple engaged in- with help minutes away- is, obviously, very, very risky. Note: At my boatyard: EVERY boat they haul has its full weight (or, nearly so), on its keel at some point. An incompetent lift operator lowered my boat's keel to the ground, with three resounding "thumps". No damage. I hit a large, immovable object (assume rock) foolishly trusting private markers through a mooring field, next to a yacht having ~7-ft draft (I am 5-ft draft). Everything in my boat that was not nailed down moved, like, 2-3 ft forward, my depressed bow creating a small breaking wave (my speed: about 5.5 kts). My external lead fin keel, which is about 8- ft long, about 2-ft high, and ~1-ft wide where attached to the bottom of a deep sump, had its front face flattened back, and spread to about 3-times it's original width, over about a 5- inch height. No internal damage. My boat is not any sort of custom, high-end boat, rather a production boat, built in 1977. I truly believe a proper ocean-going boat should be able to withstand loads far exceeding simply supporting their own static weight, or, those encountered while coastal or Long Island- style sailing during benign mid-summer conditions. Mine will never be as stout as I would like, despite my efforts, due to what I believe is mostly excessive beam- which I need to accept, not deny- sort of like the inherent design of your keel. While I am on a roll: I was the double-hand crew during three Bermuda 1-2 races, on a 34ft sloop, built by well-known (and, reasonably respected) builder. First race: The spade rudder broke off, ~110 mi N of Bermuda, during the double-hand leg. Inspection revealed that the rudder, as likely with most similar designs (which is why I will not state the builder) was simply a notched stainless steel plate, perhaps 1/4" thick (the plate itself was, of course, gone, along with the rudder, we inspected the post), welded to the bottom of the ~3-inch diameter rudder post, around which a foam-based fiberglass skinned structure was cast. We were lucky: Limped back with an emergency rudder which was barely adequate for the calm conditions. Rough weather? Farther away? No way. My theory: We had brisk downwind conditions, the highly responsive autopilot continuously (and, beautifully) correcting yaw (we were using a cruising spinnaker, on a broad reach, with ~4-5 ft short period waves, with an underlying 4- ft swell), imparted cyclic loading, concentrated at that relatively tiny weldment, and it fatigued to failure, probably initiated by on-going crevice corrosion. The boat, surveyed ~1 year prior, showed no obvious evidence of impending failure, at least to that well regarded person.
Trip 2: Dismasted (single-handed leg) during relatively benign Gulf Stream conditions, due to the manufacturer utilizing "racy" cast T fittings at the mast for the shrouds, without including toggles to allow proper articulation (which I observed, later, on other boats, perusing masts at a local yacht club). While in Bermuda (the owner valiently saved the damaged mast, which we cut and re-rigged, to get home) performing repairs, a seasonal cruiser, remembering our earlier rudder mishap, took me aside and literally begged me not to go to sea " in a boat like that"- defined by him as having inherent design elements considered, at least historically, unsuitable for the constant stress imparted during offshore distance sailing. And, departing from this philosophy incurs risk- which needs to be recognized and managed. He felt that our boat was unsuitable in ways which would be very difficult to change.(Although, I may consider a spade rudder if I had full knowledge of the design, construction, and age. Still not sure. This years Newport-Bermuda race saw the sinking of a well- built spade rudder boat, due, according to the very knowledgeable owner, to the failure of the rudder's internal supporting structure following impact with an unknown object, allowing water ingress. The rudder itself was apparently still servicable. I do not know if a strong skeg would have helped. Seems like it shouldn't hurt, though. I do believe, though, in rig redundancy, reflected by my modifications to my boat, i.e. cutter rig, twin backstays, multiple lower shrouds, etc, insisted upon by that seasoned ocean-crossing mariner...
The bottom line: The claim that your boat could not only be repaired but also appropriately upgraded to "something better" (whatever that means), is extraordinary, since likely redesign, not just repairs, are involved, to meet mechanical requirements that are very hard to quantify. Do you simply make the "grid" of heavier construction? How much is enough? Must it be trussed? What about compatibility with the interior? Must the interior be changed? Do you want to find out if the new design is adequate, yourself, during a statistically likely event, 1000+ miles from help? The inconvenient truth is that much of this sort of information is obtained empirically, from the truthful documentation/anecdotes provided by captains of the variety of pleasure boats plying our oceans, some of whom operate the same type, compare their experiences, and discuss successes and shortcomings. Since significant data exists to suggest the shortcomings associated, for example, of your boat's keel design, such claims (I think) require extraordinary proof, which, in the world of engineering (mine, at least) , involves the peer review of candidate design modifications- something well beyond the sort of actions most marine facilities engage in (although, I am sure, that many "experts" will claim that their approach would meet these requirements, without feeling the need to provide any technical data). I simply do not know how you responsibly proceed without potentially high cost, long delays, much debate and, still, likely be "the guinea pig", to determine, in-situ, if all this effort and cost results in the required safety.
I certainly wish you both well, and, especially, your safety and joy throughout your endeavors. -- PM
It will involve taking interior apart to gain access to the grid. From there rebuilding the grid, lots of grinding and fiberglass repairs to grid. You can do the work yourselves, it's not that hard to lay glass. It's all in the prep to make it go smooth. There are some channels that you can learn from. Good luck
Thanks for your words!
I didn't realize the boat yard could do damage- lesson learned. Your comments- I don't know, sounded many times. Time for professional advice and help.
⚠Her days are done. She's a write-off. No one is meant to sail her.
- You are being led to find another boat to realise your dreams. Don't resist by holding regret or disappointment. Instead, let go and embrace the event as a growth experience and move forward trusting things will unfold within your capacity to augment results to your benefit. Shine on✨
Thanks for your uplifting words, we are trying to be trusting of what ever comes and to stay positive
Nonsense, not a write off at all. Repair will be a lot of work but is pretty easy and straightforward.
This actually made me very sad. Such an unlucky thing to happen at this point in your journey (or any time really) and I sincerely hope it doesn’t delay your plans. I have seen many repairs on sailing channels, and if you are in the right yard, with the right folks doing it, plus insurance they can work wonders. I cross everything that this is the case for you. Love this channel.
Your support means a lot to us, thanks for your nice words! We are trying our best to put our boat in the best hands and do all we can to contribute to that. So far we’ve been helped nicely by our insurance.
You guys will get over this!
Keep strong you two! :) try to focus on the good things and just keep going... It's part of the journey
Sending some love ❤
Thanks for the love and support! We are trying to keep a good mindset .. it’s an up and down 😉
@@patandfrankie i fall since 7 years, so don t be mad there is never a ground which u can hit.
It’s always a place of perspective. Nonetheless tough times .. wishing you all the best too
This is a disaster that didn't need to happen. Extremely sad and frustrating on many levels.
I can offer advise on repairing though. I am qualified.
My first and strongest advice is Do NOT try and fix this yourselves, please! You need a professional.
Time wise it will take approximately one month after the insurance is sorted and you've found the right professional you can work with.
The floor will need to be cut away and everything removed. You will not be able to live on your yacht while the repairs are being done and all your clothing, bedding etc should be also removed. The dust and fumes will get into everything!
The good news is yes it can be repaired but sad to say this will probably delay your plans by at least 3 months I'd suggest.
I was happy to see you didn't play the blame game that shows you both have amazing attitudes even in the worst possible scenario.
Well done for that and all the best getting this fixed and back to the water.
Cheers 🍻🍻
Thanks a lot for taking the time to share some ideas with us. We will definitely do as you said and prepare the boat as best as possible so that the works can take place.
We are trying to stay positive that we will still be able to sail this upcoming seasons, but some days are better and on some days it feels like everything is processing slowly. Probably usual for an insurance issue.
Thanks for your nice words - of course there are many emotions involved when something like this happens, but more important is that all energy goes into solving the problem. 😌
@@patandfrankie Very wise words!
I'm sure you'll get through this with flying colors 😀😀
The hull liner has to come out. For that, everything has to come off including the deck. It can be repaired, but the cost would exceed the value of the boat. Insurance will total the boat.
@@FranklinGray 100% write off
As a contributor said below this looks more like an inshore sailing vessel. All my boats had steel keels and would sit comfortably on the hardstanding with fore and aft hull props with a further prop under the bow. Imagine if you tied up to pier and the tide went down leaving you sitting on your keel. In my opinion the same thing would happen. The keel to hull attachment is a major structural design, Either have a new keel properly designed and attached or junk the boat because what you have it completely unseaworthy. Personally, I would get a properly designed keel but if somebody did design the original lead blob then that it makes me wonder about the rest of the equipment and suitability of you having a sea worthy raft.
Thanks for your thoughts! We believe avoiding a ground touching in any case should be avoided and we always check the depth in marinas and on the sea. In any case the boat should be able to rest on the keel, but in the lowering process there was an unnatural load combination that is not normal.
If this was an existing weakness, better to find this now, than out at sea. Please keep us informed. You might find it useful to look at the early vids by Jade and Bret of Expedition Evans.
To have this damage happen at sea is every sailors nightmare .. better have it in a boatyard or best not have it at all!!
Thanks for the recommendation, we’ll check them out!
@@patandfrankie On sea it will destroy the complete hull think about its swabbing from left ti right taken all the tons second for second.
U can contact odd life crafting he is this time in france he will maybe come and repair it with u he had the ability for that.
Sorry to hear about this unfortunately incident,through no fault of yours……….on the positive side ,I subscribed yesterday after looking at this video,and have noticed that since yesterday there’s been a few hundred which have also subscribed…..i have started watching all the videos from the beginning and now after postings this will continue to watch all your episodes……super big hugs to both…some excellent advice has been given by your subscribers…..everything will work fine in the end.
Thanks it’s nice to have you onboard and we are happy that you’re catching up on the other episodes 😊
There are now so many reports about problems with a deep short keel with a ballast bomb underneath. And this with modern, relatively lightly built GRP hulls - one has to doubt/reject this construction!
Thanks for pointing this out! Are you referring to anything specific? Would be interesting to read
@@patandfrankie #30 Bavaria Kielschaden selbst reparieren / Girasolesailing Weltumsegelun
ua-cam.com/video/jI9kkS3goFk/v-deo.html
We thought you were referring to analytical reports ..
@@patandfrankie Keel problems:
I had read several examples of keel problems; (including at Bavaria;))
004 Keel damage and mast foot repair - light at the end of the tunnel? (UA-cam title)
ua-cam.com/video/NhAGWxAbqaA/v-deo.html
Marietime: Which sailing boat for the round-the-world trip? Long keel and short keel boats compared
ua-cam.com/video/SxX8rBMdjnM/v-deo.html
I hope your insurance company comes through. Good luck!
This is a slight failure of the boatyard and a slight failure of the pre-purchase inspection (although problems with the keel matrix are not always visible)
But there is a bigger, industry-wide problem at hand: boats with fin keels with lead bulbs are not bluwater boats. If a boat runs into a sandbank (they often do), this slim fin keel gets full weight of the boat. Also, the keel needs to protect the rudder. Fin keel have been en vogue now for 30 years (and I don't know why, frankly). Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria - mostly fin keels.
But masses of fin keel boats are produced by these companies (they even produce in the USA and AUS) to summer rentals; they are flooding the market, pricing out good bluewater boats, and making the construction of true bluewater boats uneconomical.
I don't know if you've seen it; but there's an American couple who bought at auction a 50ft Beneteau that had hit the keel after the coast! The damage was similar to that of your boat.
They themselves did the work which basically consisted of stripping the gelcoat up to 1.50 / 2 meters from the cracks and gluing fiberglass, a lot of fiberglass up to 1 centimeter thick! A crazy job that creates a lot of dust and is extremely long and tedious! But hey, a priori; it can be done well if you have the courage.
Thanks for the tipp, if it it Expedition Evans who you are talking about we will check them out soon!
@@patandfrankie yes it's them. good luck
Brett and Jade Evans did a really impressive job repairing their boat. They are now sitting in Barcelona making a custom hard dodger. I had a little personal interaction with them and they couldn’t be nicer. Not to mention very skilled. You might try reaching out to them.
Wish you all the best
Those keels are extremely dangerous, especially on an ocean crossing. You are SO LUCKY you found it out now. Nothing beats an incapsulated keel but unfortunately, only Kraken makes boats with an incapsulated keel that isn't a full keel. The next best thing is a keel with a keel box like Moody and Hunter does. This type of keel you have is for racing, not ocean crossing. It is very dangerous as it's very hard to keep it on the boat. So many of these have come off. In my opinion, you need to fix it, then sell the boat and get a non-racing boat to go cruising with.
Thanks for your words and input!
I'm sorry you are going through this but keep us updated and thank you for an opportunity to learn from your experience. Hopefully the saying what don't kill make you stronger will prevail here!
We hope so too!!! Thanks for your words :)