@@babyonemoretime5011 There is absolutely sometimes smoke without fire, from that lacrosse team to Tara Reade. The surest sign of a false accusation is if the story changes. If you have been the victim of harassment / assault, there are no "versions" of what happened, just the painful unwanted reality of what happened. That was the tell with Tara Reade, she changed her story all over the place. Beyond that, the guy's reputation counts for zero. Completely ignore it.
This case is angering, and I'm not even a megafan of Gaiman's work. There was a point well made on social media: "Before you judge Neil Gaiman, remember all the warmth and humanity in his work, the joy it brought. Then judge him even more harshly because you know he knows exactly how to be a decent person and does the opposite."
Funny. Gaiman is not without some talent, but what I primarily remember about his books, after I had read a few, was the impression "this was written by a sexual predator." Also, how can a moral nihilist be morally sound?
@@johnwhelan9663you can be very cynical while holding morals, because people can be hypocrits. You still can even write messed up dynamics, and write it aproviate bad in context and wrong Yes you can call yourself a moral nihilist yet want that. Not saying anything against the neil gaiman part.
@@marocat4749 I'm not interested in debating broad generalities whether one can be "cynical" (in some sense while "holding morals" (in some sense). When I referenced Gaiman's books, I had a number of very specific things in mind. Which I can list if you like. And even so, I did not think I had found absolute proof that Gaiman was, in comparison to others, a particularly immoral man. I was merely, as I said, sufficiently suspicious to google if there had been allegations against him.
It’s one of the sad truths of life that flawed, fucked up and even evil people can have talent and make amazing things. And I stop supporting them financially when it comes to light. And sometimes it’s so bad I can’t enjoy their work anymore. But here’s the thing I try and remember: the special place those works of flawed people have in your heart? They’re not there JUST because of those authors. You bring huge parts of yourself to those stories to make them special: your life, your experiences, your sense of meaning. And no amount of the author being shitty can take that away from you, even if the person is forever marred.
I used to read Cerebus in the early eighties by Bill Sim.Something very similar happened to him but those Cerebus comics were special to me growing up and it is hard to separate the writer and artist from the real person.
The most despicable author might be Arthur C. Clarke. His alleged activities in Sri Lanka were swept under the carpet but if you believe there's no smoke without a fire it would make it hard to read anything by him. I find it to be a pretty messed up world if everyone is on Neil Gaiman's case or HP Lovecraft's when Clarke gets a pass.
By the way it doesn't sound good. Ironically Amazon cancelled a Conan the Barbarian project because the head of entertainment didn't like Robert E. Howard's 1930s additudes. At least they knew what they had with him and his short life was free of scandal. They thought Neil Gaiman's values were liberal enough to make a show though. Apparently not. This case is very similar to CBC host Jian Ghomeshi. A darling of the network with all the right views until they found out he has peculiar tastes when it comes to intimacy.
This reminds me of a quote from Dune Messiah. Here lies a toppled god, his fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, a narrow and a tall one.
Not sure whats wrong with that in this context, of course his biggest fans are going to be the most hurt (besides the victims) by his disgusting actions. Youd prefer if his biggest fans kept supporting him? @@zodlord5669
I think putting people on pedestals and idolizing and being super fans of artists, authors, politicians, musicians and really just people is a recipe for disappointment. As I got older and people in my real life such as relatives, teachers, co workers etc.. disappointed me greatly it helped me learn that lesson. I enjoy peoples work a lot and may even collect it and admire the work, but I know in the back of my mind that I do not know these people. I hope they are wonderful but they may not be. And that’s the thing about people. Even ones who do rotten things can create or do wonderful things and this is what makes humanity so messy.
Agree. I guess it's the whole irrational belief that they can do no wrong and that makes for the worst letdown. Sad really. I meant what I said about Keanu though. 😂
I think this is the exact point. And I don't even think you can ever trust someone's public image. I know enough industry people to know that it's all part of their job, it's never who they really are. Richard Osman's podcast is good for this, they do sometimes spill tea on celebs who have nice guy images who are really quite unpleasant. (Dwayne Johnson is one..) I tend to just think why can't these men behave? It seems simple enough just to be half decent. It is just disappointing and never worth idolising anyone.
So well spoken about this horrible situation. I first found out about Gaiman through Tori Amos's lyrics. She's mentioned him in several songs, and I always admired their loyal, longtime platonic friendship. I can't imagine how this news has been for her since she is a survivor of brutal sexual assault and a key spokesperson in the RAINN organization. This is very hard for us longtime book fans to process, and I'm sure many in his close circle also had no idea. 💔
Thanks Johanna. I agree with you. People keep saying, I wonder what Tori has to say. I know what Amanda has to say from her lyrics. Interestingly, from a lot of the comments in this video, I get the impression the some of us are the last to find out. 😞
A mistake I think we make when talking about abuse and power, is separating "abusers" into their own class of citizen. We have a lot of social dialogue around clinical narcissism these days too which complicates it, and I just think it keeps us from seeing what's actually at play. Neil is a person, just like all of us. He's done very good and wholesome and kind things, and he's done heinous horrible things. We're ALL capable of doing heinous and horrible things, but 98% of us choose not to. Neil made an incredibly awful choice. AND we know that he made that choice *repeatedly*. He has untold victims at this point, we have no idea how many will come forward as time goes on, but anecdotally at least 14 spoke to Amanda Palmer. My point thought is that we don't need him to be a monster to have done horrible and awful things. We don't need to other him. We need to hold him accountable and find out what tf else he's done. And we need to look at WHY wealth and power corrupts people, or perhaps why corrupt people keep ending up with gross amounts of wealth and power. But comforting ourselves by believing abusers are just abnormally more evil than regular people doesn't actually has a positive effect imo. Instead, it allows us to never ask what in our society and culture is creating this, and we need to know the answer if we want to stop it. People who rise to fame consistently end up being horrific and awful. Why. We have to stop avoiding the fact that we could ALL make these choices, but we don't. Why don't we? Why did he? It's not as simple as just carting folks off to prison, especially since cases like this so frequently favor abusers.
My thing is tho, why is expecting the bare minimum of decency holding someone to an impossible standard? I didn’t think Neil was a god, I just thought he was what he said he was. Should we assume everyone is a monster?
Great point. I think we have to assume that everyone has a shadow self not many get to see. The level of monster revealed is up to that person. Idk. I really hate thinking the way, but it’s proving itself true these days. My personal motto remains true: always try to be kind and do no harm.
I didn't know until this video. This is why I don't generally have a desire to meet famous people. I figure they can only disappoint. It is rough if you have spent years loving their work....to just drop that love when something like this hits. Those stories are now part of YOU. It is hard to separate.
Thanks for this MJ. As someone of the same generation I have been a huge Gaiman fan for a long time. Sandman and Good Omens started me off and I’ve read most of his work for years. When similar allegations were made about Warren Ellis, another one of that generation of British writers and artists who turned the American conic industry on its head, that was a bitter pill. But this one sucked. Like you said, I always kinda assumed he was one of the good ones. Why can’t we have nice things? I think separation of art from artist is important. So many great writers and artists were such horrors of human beings that if that separation doesn’t exist, you end up consuming no art. But it’s bloody hard, especially when the artist in question is still around making that art. There aren’t easy answers to this. But talking helps.
@@TheBookThing agreed, you can’t take his books out of my dead hands as these works now belong to the public, yes he’s the author but what we as readers interpret and get out of said books is ours, period. That being said I will not be buying any of his works from this point on ( I’ll buy second hand if interested ). His brilliance is undeniable which makes this all sting more.
I just watched Nick Cave’s interview with Colbert immediately prior to this video. There are very interesting comparisons to make there. Nick has admitted openly that he was a nasty little guy at the start of his career. He has been honestly awful in the past. Being punk and part of the punk scene there was that licence to be a bad guy and you know what? If he had no talent at all and made a living doing something else, he would still have been like that, I am sure. I can accept Nick Cave as he is and love the beauty of his constantly developing and maturing and deepening work BECAUSE he never pretended to be anything else. The important difference was that Gaiman and Joss Whedon pretended to be on our side, when it was actually just charm, another tool in their seduction tool kit. Nick made a living out of being honestly problematic, and that helps the audience think through what he gives us in his art. At least you know to keep your heart protected. It’s the feeling that we’ve been deceived that makes us feel sick. It’s the sudden change in dynamic from safety to danger, even if it is not personal, that shocks us. If Gaiman offered one of my daughters an internship I would have squealed with joy and I could have made a massive mistake by letting her go! That is why revelations like this are frightening and cause such outrage. It’s not about perfection or idealisation. It’s about _safety_ .
I feel you on all of this. I was heartbroken and disappointed to hear about the Neil Gaiman allegations. I think we all believed Neil was a good person and he always seemed so lovely and polite but I believe the survivors and it's sickening to hear what's happened to them. Yeah we really shouldn't put people up on pedestals. We don't know what celebrities are really like or how they act in private. Omg yes! I'm such a Keanu Reeves fan too so I'd be so devastated if anything negative came out about him too.
I'm not a huge Gaiman fan, but have read all the SANDMANs, and some of his books, and I've always wanted to like and admire Gaiman. And I have been greatly influenced by his approach to writing in general, and his sense of the power and magic of imagination, stories, and mythology. BUT ... deep in my gut feeling there were quite, nagging alarm bells and I couldn't quite go there. Watching him in interviews and events, I was always turned off by the the feeling he was "acting" -- that the lovely, polite persona was an act he was putting on, and that there was something darker underneath. Now it seems my gut feeling was right.
I think both things can be true - women are victimized by men with power/celebrity AND some men don’t understand that some women can’t reject sexual advances because they don’t know how, they’re afraid of retaliation or rejection, or any number of other things. The proof of character in the man is when this imbalanced dynamic is pointed out to him and he modifies his behavior (or not).
I had always been an avid reader and my to-read stack was very tall when a couple friends started insisting I read him years ago. One of them enthusiastically told me the plot of Coraline and they noticed, I guess, that I looked preoccupied and uncomfortable because they asked. And I said, "well, the main theme of the story can be wanting to warn young readers about harmful strangers who want to love bomb you....of course. And a warning to parents to BE parents, no matter how constrained their time is. But because you said he was partly inspired by his career preoccupying him so much while he was a parent ...and because it doesn't seem like he chose to slow down his career, even though he was already so successful.... The other message seems to be 'no matter how little time or or attention or affection I give you, no matter how low a priority you seem to be in my day to day life, don't you DARE risk loving someone else, because they will be worse than I am. In fact, don't you dare even try to IMAGINE a parent who will meet your emotional needs.' That's....wow. That feels deeply manipulative and unsettling to me.... " After that, they stopped talking to me about his work. But I always stuck in my mind. Writing that book while a parent seemed to be burying manipulation that borders on emotional abuse UNDER complex, nuanced art that critics will praise as "not didactic" and "a modern Grimms fairytale"... It just made me feel glad that I was not raised by Neil Gaiman. It felt like a little flicker of a hidden, very red flag for me. It somehow made it all worse that the main character is required to save her own parents.... And then learn to be contented with the life that had previously left her feeling so lonely. Possible undertones of parentification and scapegoating the child as **causing** the problem by experiencing a wish to have a little more parental attention? And then, when the American movie was made, the ONE thing he didn't like about it was that she made a friend who helped save her from the Other Mother. On the one hand, this reads as a feminist theme wanting her to save herself! On the other, it reads as the author's discomfort from a departure of the themes I thought I had picked up on....the main character is allowed to make an emotional attachment who actually invests time and attention in her, and helps her, I stead of requiring her to push down her emotional needs and save the whole family. Just...I don't know, man. I didn't like it.
Enough other people whose work I admire have turned out to be less than admirable people that this news about Gaiman didn't sting so much. The thing I try to remember is that people are complicated. People aren't good or bad. We're people. It's our actions that have moral consequences. We can genuinely do good things with one hand while using the other hand to stab and cripple.
When someone abused their power and coerced ppl to consent to sex (which btw is no consent, which btw means it's r*pe), to differentiate between the action and the person being bad becomes semantics, IMO. But in the case Gaiman, I see a lot of this, we're sort of 'dancing around the issue' cause it's someone we used to admire. Lots of "people are messy.... people are complicated... people are flawed". Examining the integrity of the podcast that first broke the story. Even expressing doubt how believable the women are. I wonder if the same leeway would be given if there were the same allegations against someone we dislike, someone like Weinstein for instance. Probably not. Btw I include myself in this. The first reaction is to make excuses, benefit of the doubt etc. And then I realize what I am doing and I sort of hate how not objective I am. Perfect opportunity to examine one's bias.
I adore Neil Gaiman's books and connected with many of them on a deep level. The Sandman introduced me to so many other incredible stories, myths, and artists. I met Neil Gaiman once. He was gracious and kind and took some moments out of his busy evening to talk to me. I can never think of that interaction the same way now. Clearly, we never really know who other people are, but I respected Neil Gaiman. I made the mistake of thinking he was a decent human. Obviously, there are other authors and artists who have done similar things and even worse. That doesn't make it any less awful. The other part of it that infuriates me is that Gaiman would dare to use his Autism as an excuse with one of his accusers. I am Autistic. I know the difference between right and wrong, probably more so than most neurotypical people. I've also been the victim of SA, like so many other Autistic people. Humanity is so disappointing.
I’ve had vague “alarm” bells about Gaiman for a while now (was a HUGE follower of his on LiveJournal), as there were just some things that were…off about him and what he was sharing with his young audience. But I pushed that aside because I did like his writing. But now? It’s something I’m not able to push aside any longer, and my heart hurts for these women. And people can do morally great things to cover up the rot beneath the surface. It’s so hard to hold both points of view in our heads. I’m sorry that you’re having to grapple with this, MJ, since you are such a fan of his. 💖
Do you remember the things he shared with his young audience? There were always rumors of him having young groupies at conventions. And he was known for sleeping around a ton.
@@BbGun-lw5vi - it was just weirdly personal stuff? Like, I hate to be cliche, but it had the feel of that Steve Buscemi “hey there fellow youths” skit from SNL, like he was trying hard to fit in. Plus all the stuff about his ex-wife, and the start of his relationship with Amanda Palmer.
@panidorabox82 I followed him then, too, and I was uncomfortable with some of the things he shared, but I would have had a difficult time explaining why. Then when when he and Amanda shared that they had an open relationship, I thought it was oversharing. If both parties agree, that's fine, but why make it public? I know not to idolize people, but I thought he was a decent human. I respected him as a creative force who wrote books I connected with on a deep level.
Neil Gaiman's books together with Anne Rice's are part of my whole life as a youngster and the 50 old woman that I'm now..I never never will get rid of Neils comics and books, I'll treasure them forever..but I truly hope and support that he pays dearly for all the lives he has destroyed 😢😢😢😢
I remember how disappointed I was when I heard the allegations against actor Kevin Spacey. How I knew his incredible body of work would be clouded by the controversy
That's a good point. It's that aspect of it as well-how could they do this to their own work? It feels like they betray their own legacy, and so their work, and, in extension, the people who love what they do.
Very good point. Innocent until proven guilty. I think all allegations should be taken seriously.....but I know one of the people, and I would gladly be a character witness against her.
I adore Neil Gaiman's work. I consider him to be one of my favourite writers. That will never cross over into thinking he's a good person. This is the difference. I think most people constantly have that prehistoric brain where we see success as being good.
_"Why do we..."_ - I never have. I've never pretended any knowledge of someone personally based on their art. I don't expect any celebrity to be anything other than human - sometimes to a fault, which may be why their art is good. There is no pedestal for me. I also can't honestly say I care about celebrities leveraging their fame / power for perks (like sexual access). If a rock star wanted to get famous to sleep with women it makes no difference at all to me. Unless they've actually forced someone to do something - thus breaking the law - it doesn't matter. And concepts like 'power imbalances' are deliberately vague notions to imply 'extra badness' to things which are either criminal or they're not. In the case of Gaiman I think she was an employee or something (the initial accuser) which makes things more messy.
This really hurt me. I know my pain is trivial compared to the people he hurt. But when I learned to write, he was an inspiration to me, and I always wanted to be better than Neil. I believed in him. My heart is truly broken
Thank you for your thoughtful and careful words here. I’ve not heard of any news about him - so I might need to go find out what is going on. But this is such an important discussion to have about how do we separate creatives from their work if they turn out to be problematic. It’s one I struggle with concerning some of my own favorite authors ( like Dickens, J K Rowling and others). I really appreciate your insight here!
I feel your pain. I'm a Gaiman fan. It does not change how I feel about his past works, but I doubt we see anything new for him for a long while...maybe ever.
Thanks for sharing this. This is very tough to process. Neil Gaiman inspired my love of reading as a teenager, and while I don't read him much anymore, to this day American Gods is one of my favourite novels. I honestly hope the allegations aren't true, but it looks like another case where in order to deal with this, I need to learn to separate the art from the artist.
Yep, it’s a topic to process as a community and as a group think and the grouo support is what I thought was best. Please add to the conversation on your channel if you feel like it. Hugs. - MJ
I was a Neil Gaiman fan for a long time, not a super fan and I didn't like everything he's done but I'd at least try it. Now, I am upset. He clearly was untruthful with his fans, EVEN if it's only upheld that he ONLY did what he admitted too, I'm done with any new work. A 61 yo man jumping in a tub with a 21 yo nanny {who has been homeless} hired a couple hours ago just isn't acceptable to me, even if she was 100% ok the entire time. The power imbalance is just too great, and that would be true in all these cases, he's admitted to the sexual encounters, just not that there was abuse.. It's just ikky. I knew he was in an open marriage but I never thought it went this far. The only thing I really struggle with is S3 of Good Omens, that involves so many other people. If they pull him as showrunner, I'm totally gonna watch. Otherwise, just not sure. I certainly will not try any new material from him. PS, I really hope Terry Pratchett didn't know.
Thanks for sharing. I think we didn’t know all facets of Neil even though we think we might have - if that makes sense? The news definitely hit hard and a lot of us are processing it. I’ll still read his work because I really loved his writing - but I won’t pay for it. I’ll wait for second hand books. It’s just sad. 🤷🏻♀️
I guess I benefit from having trust issues, cause I always assume the public faces of famous people are fake to some degree, and that I don't have access to enough information to know where the facade ends. It is hard enough to truly know my real-life friends, and sometimes they do things that make me have to re-evaluate my image of them. Gaiman has always seemed like the sort of guy I'd have fun hanging out with in public spaces, but not someone I'd let walk me home.
So... the man hasn't been convicted of anything as of yet. The word "allegedly" gets used a lot in this video. Yet the tone clearly says that the verdict of the Court of Public Opinion is already in.
Allegedly, yes!! I don’t want any legal action on my channel. The facts will all play out sooner or later whether we are allowed to know or not. I’m simply a fan trying to process the disappointing headlines.
I've been avoiding this one. It feels like Bill Cosby all over again from a fan standpoint. Gaiman was always a top author for me. How many times have I said to myself, "This writing reminds me of Neil Gaiman?" I will probably read him again. I think reading from flawed people is part of the purpose of reading sometimes. That said, Neil, we are on a break right now. Thank you for the thoughtful video, MJ.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I don't know the full details as yet, so need to look into it but I heard a mention of this a few days ago and I, like you, felt shook because I am a fan and admirer of him as a person. I think what you say about not idolising people rings true. They tell you never to meet your heroes, and it is for the very reason that they are really only human at the end of the day, with all the good and bad that that entails. They are almost bound to disappoint, so I'm not someone who seeks to ever do that. I am someone who finds it relatively easy to separate art from artist in most cases, so if the allegations are upheld, I will still value and read Gaiman's existing body of work - at least the parts I already valued as I am not a blanket across the board fan of all his writing but was more so about his work for libraries etc. And I am with you on Keanu - he was my first teen obsession!
Some good points. A lot of issues here. Almost like it’s the subject for a good livestream discussion. Just saying. PS - the day Keanu falls, it’s time to just pack it in and move on to the next life.
I'm shocked that a rich and famous man with adoring fans has slept with people. Lol. If there were some underage people involved okay he should probably go to jail for that. But consenting adults fooling around is hardly shocking in this day and age
They say we shouldn't meet our heroes. I met Tom Baker (fourth Dr Who) he was drunk and rude and I was upset and disappointed. A lot of celebrities who do a lot for charities have many skeletons in their closets. Sorry one of your heroes has toppled off his pedestal. One of my favorite fantasy reads is Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I was shocked and upset when I heard disturbing news about the author. She has passed now, but I can't see myself picking up another of her books.
Me & my father met Tom back in 1998 at a convention. I was 5 at the time & was very new to Tom's work on Dr.Who. My father grew up watching him in the 70s & was incredibly excited to see him. He seemed incredibly interested in me someone whom barely knew his work. But my father the guy who grew up watching him & followed his work for decades he couldn't care less about & was quite rude. My father walked away incredibly disappointed that day.
I loved the mists of Avalon and her books about Other characters in that world. But after I read her daughter’s deposition I couldn’t even bear to keep them in my house, and I had a big collection of several versions of each
@@dixiedawnmillergoode6850 Thank you for the information. It makes me want to read the deposition. I've tried several links from Google, and I haven't yet found one that is still active. I have found some excerpts, but so far they seem to be redacted in such a way as to make it seem that Marion *only* was aware of and did nothing about her husband's sexual abuse, *not* that she was responsible for primary sexual abuse as well. This seems to be the story promulgated in Wikipedia and elsewhere. Nevertheless, _Entertainment Weekly_ published an excerpt from one of Greyland's emails, saying, "She was cruel and violent, as well as completely out of her mind sexually. I am not her only victim, nor were her only victims girls." I can remember a time when Bradley was _the_ SF feminist icon. Not LeGuin, who had sense and produced rich nuanced commentary and was by all accounts a very good person. This is interesting to me as a cognitive linguist with a political bent. It seems to me that there's a similar reality-distortion framing field going on in both cases, given that the mainstream press seems to be pulling a _pay no attention to the Gai-man behind the curtain_ thing. Frankly, I'm more concerned with this than with what particular individuals do. Given that people work so hard to enable the indicated behaviors, it seems likely that this will never end, and that there will be more and more people who will take advantage of performative pseudo-feminism for cover. It obviously and evidently works. It obviously and evidently has a much wider appeal than actual feminism. There needs to be some consciousness-raising about it. That is, *if* anybody actually cares about ending sexual abuse and sexism. Frankly, I don't see a lot of evidence for that. At minimum, it appears not to be as appealing to do the work. More likely, bad things are functionally enabled because the performance is what drives the politics, and it wouldn't be possible to get so upset and sling mud if things actually got better. I cannot point a finger of individual blame on commentators, but people are people regardless of sex or whatever, and people are piggy. I'm not the one being cynical here; I'm making fair comment on cynicism, which is plentiful.
Fame gives us the illusion of familiarity. Celebrities can be everyone's "friend" because there are layers of stories where we automatically associate them with an emotional journey. Authors even more so because they create and navigate that emotional journey. I remember when Fred Savage got revealed after a lifetime of multiple accusations. It gutted me because I grew up with him and he felt like a friend. His smile. His charm. His voice. All of them were so familiar to me. But then I realized...I don't know him. All signs point to him being an abuser who likes to fondle women behind the scenes. It takes a while to separate yourself emotionally from the people who you think you know from the real people who we really don't know.
I think we hold people like Neil Gaiman in trust is because it feels like they have been allies. When they appear to have gone out of their way to be supportive of vulnerable communities it's hard when we learn they weren't sincere.
@@M-J After watching your video, I was thinking back to a conversation I had with a queer fan of Harry Potter. She said that as much as JK Rowling broke her heart, the author has basically inspired a whole army of future creatives who will take the baton but continue without the bad baggage. I started out this year participating in a contest to illustrate for a book by Gaiman, I was so hopeful he'd love my work and felt that my lifetime of enjoying his works would give me an advantage to win the contest. I didn't win, and was sad, but now I'm okay with having lost. I'm proud of my art, and I don't need Gaiman's approval! Maybe I'm not as good as a writer or storyteller, but I'm a good human and in a position of leadership where I'm helping the next generation of writers find their own voices. I might not be where I am if not for people like Gaiman, Rowling, or Whedon, but though I may never see money or fame, I can do what they failed to and keep my respect.
I wasn't sure, until I read the details. They remind me a LOT of the abusive men in the BDSM community, who use the power dynamics to excuse abuse. Thankfully, that's rare, as the community generally teaches people to communicate more effectively and openly--which leads to healthy sexual relationships. But yeah. I don't think I'll be able to read his work without seeing it through this lens.
I myself have never understood the need to idolize someone I don't personal know. I respect their work and how it improves my day, but the person themselves I never take a personal interest in. Not sure why this is. I suspect its because I have a thing about one way relationships, I just don't believe in them. To quote Kahless from StarTrek TNG "Perhaps the words are more important than the man"
it takes two to tango, yes Gaiman was in a position of power, but also the women were in their rights to say no. Through all the accusations I realize one thing we all have a choice and I don't believe Gaiman coerced the girls. That much is true, but him being in that position he shouldn't be making offers to dumb little girls anyways and dumb girls shouldn't be sleeping with a older man who is famous looking for a paycheck.
I totally get that! It is a very tricky dance to make a video just scraping the surface without rattling cages. I get your point, I don’t think it’s kind to call someone dumb, but dumb old dudes should stay in their lane and keep it in their pants 😂🤷🏻♀️
@@M-J well let me rephrase it, it was smart of the girls to do what they did because they wanted a pay check, but that doesn't make it right. You cannot claim any moral stance or victimhood when you make decisions based on selfish desires.
@@M-J Well if I were to rephrase it and say the girls were smart that they took advantage of a rich old guy for sex and money that still doesn't make it right. You cannot claim any moral high-ground or victim hood based on selfish desires, that's Amber Heard Territory. If you do things like that you diminish real stories of real victims who were raped or abused.
Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry for brining about tears. It was tough, but the truth is we never really truly know anyone, but I still like to think the best in people. Hugs to you. - MJ
I share your sentiments. He had been such a big influence, inspiration & personal hero. Was doubtful of certain things with the first two allegations, but the 3rd one (Caroline Wallner), really cemented my opinion on him probably not being a morally sound person, who abused his power & influence. "Never meet your heroes" as they say. Deeply dissapointed in his behavior & actions.
A lot of the art I enjoy is made by horrible people. Sometimes, knowing how messed up the people who made it are even adds a layer of morbid fascination to the enjoyment for me. I am not proud of that, but I have to be honest about it with myself. It also kinda helps that most of them are dead, so I don't have to feel guilty about supporting them. In the case of Gaiman, however, I, for the first time, feel really bummed out and disappointed. I was really into his work as a teenager. Since then, I’ve moved on, but I found a lot of my now-favorite authors through him. I remember reading a lot of his interviews and non-fiction writing and having an admiration for him, not only as a writer but also as a person. Even as a kid, I was always very cynical, but somehow I didn't see through his charming and well-spoken public persona. Now I feel like I've been fooled. Maybe that is why I can't see myself reading anything from him in the near future, even though if all the allegations are true, he is not even near the most vile author whose books I like. It might be hypocritical of me, but it is what it is...
I wasn't exactly a "super fan" but i really liked his work and I found him very inspirational and im so sad... I don't even think its putting someone on a too high pedal to want someone to NOT be an abuser... Its just really sad...
People are complicated and… fucked up. This is why I always separate the artist from the art. Otherwise, I would never be able to enjoy anything. I can admire talent for its own sake and still denounce bad behavior when proven true.
I started to suspect when he left his wife for Amanda Palmer that the old boy was having a bit of a crisis. Sad to hear he was always abusing his power
I haven't read a lot of Neil Gaiman's work but I enjoyed Anansi Boys and Good Omens, his collaboration with Terry Pratchett, who is on the top of my list of favorite authors. I am also a big fan of the miniseries based on that book. Gaiman and Pratchett were great friends for years, and Gaiman was devastated by Terry's death and promised him that he would produce the adaption, which he made sure was as close to the book as possible. I'm trying to process the allegations, too. It's difficult for me to remain impartial, considering what men in his position could conceivably do. In 1948, the great author Zora Neale Hurston (another author whom I hold in high esteem) was falsely accused of molesting a young boy. The charges were dropped a year later, but the scandal had a devastating effect on her career, and it nearly drove her to suicide. I ask myself, since I admire her work so much, how I would have responded to the allegations (since that is all they turned out to be), if I had been alive at that time.
Hi. I am not a Neil “fan” and just hearing of the allegations. The one thing I find interesting is that these allegations are reported to police in New Zealand. I remember during Covid lockdown there was alleged story about how he had left New Zealand and was in a remote part of Scotland. People were not happy with him for not following the rules of not travelling. I like you am a Gen X, and love Keanu. He appears so humble and his kindness appears to be shown day after day in small ways.
For what it's worth, I only hear good things from people who have worked with Keanu Reeves ... and that includes people on the lower levels of film production that he doesn't have to be nice to -- the crews and "little people". Even more for me personally, I don't get any nagging, gut-level red flags from him, as I always have with Neil (despite not wanting to listen to those alarms, and wanting to admire him).
Thank you for this. I've been struggling, too. It's been several months now and there doesn't seem to be any word from him or his lawyer or representative. And the longer there is silence the easier it is to fall into doubt about what's going on. I hope that he's doing what needs to be done to rectify this and make amends that are fair, if the allegations are true. The other part of all this is that today we have such a stricter line around what is proper behaviour and what isn't. And I'm not saying taking advantage of anyone has ever been right. It has never been or ever will be right. It's murky when we hold today's standards to past behaviours. Watch any show from the 90s or the 80s and the content is SO inappropriate today. And yet back then it was fine because no one made a stink about it. It wasn't right. It was inappropriate back then, too, but now we just pay attention more? I don't know. I hope all this gets resolved for the highest good of everyone. I do love his creativity and respect the good he has done. I've learned a lot from him about the creative process and I'm grateful for that. Putting anyone on a pedestal means they have further to fall.
I don't think it's holding anyone to this unattainably high standard to ask them to please not be a rapist. I can't imagine how low the bar has to be that this even has to be said.
I love H.P. Lovecraft's writing. And as an Asian man, I know I won't want to meet him. The man has serious mental issues and meeting a non-white person would only cause him nervous breakdown. And that's fine. He being problematic doesn't effect me enjoying his sick style of writing. People who worship writers don't understand writing. Just read their works. Read the hit piece or the news attacking them as you read their works. Read their obituary too, just like you read any texts. Enjoy them. Devour them. And if you want to worship them.. well, you should be able to do that too. But that's not "liking their works", isn't it?
"why put so much trust in people we haven't met"? Well, I for one, have not met any of the alleged victims, so my trust is as free to be on one or the other.
Its difficult for me. If you have never read Lovecraft Country, the book addresses this problem. Its about a black character who is a fan of HP Lovecraft's books, who was extremely racist. Two of the characters talk about being fans of the books despite the fact that the author was a horrible person. One of them talks about how you can love books even though they may flawed and its the same with the authors. We can love their writing but also need to recognize the flaws of the person. At the end of the discussion one of the characters looks at his bookshelves and adds, "but sometimes they stab you in the heart." Yeah, that's how i feel about the situation with Gaiman. But i haven't decided yet if i will buy his books anymore. I'm struggling with it. I also read a good article called "What to do with the art of monstrous men" which was helpful
I think it's not so much expecting extraordinary things but basic human decency. And we do put achievements in our mind together with the people that made them, so it's probably especially disappointing when we loved their creations. I know I was really disappointed in she who shall not be named because I loved her books as a child.
Normally, I wouldn't reply to a video of this nature. However, there is something different about yours. You are a true admirer of his work. Your pain is so visceral, it is conveyed in the video. I identified with this.. This message is for you. Take heart. The man and the creation are separate entities. His work reflects true depth and genius. His past actions do not change that there is true art and authentic genius in his work.. learn from it, enjoy the richness of his work. You don't have to love the author , to acknowledge that their is true inspiration in his work.. even a mad man, or a villain can build a city...
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. It’s been a month since this video was published and I’m fine. Hearing the news at first and processing my thoughts later on this format helped. Thanks.
I’ve been avoiding videos on this topic for various reasons but yours grabbed my attention. I’m not as big of a fan of his work as some people but I’ve always been a fan of (my perception of) the man. He’s said a lot of things that have meant a lot to me as a fellow (alleged) writer and human being. He always seemed so wise and insightful and always knew the right words. When the allegations broke I was gutted. You’re right, we do put people we don’t know on a pedestal and we shouldn’t, but it’s hard not to admire people who present a façade of being worthy of it. It sucks, it really sucks. I can only hope that the survivors find peace and he’s never able to use his position to take advantage of people again. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This one does hurt.
This is very difficult. These people are not our friends. They are not perfect. We have this twisted idea of who they are but we don’t know them. I separate the artist from the art or I wouldn’t have much to enjoy in life Lolol.
Even with our friends, you never truly know what happens when the cameras turn off. Remember whatshisname from our community that got arrested? Be kind and do no harm has always been a good motto for me.
Don't hero worship anyone. _Because you don't know them as people_ I admire people's works. I don't have to admire them. That way I can still admire Wagner's music, Picasso's art, Lennon's music, Gandhi's political movement, but I don't have to admire them as people because they were not good people. People will almost always let you down.
@@M-J I had a similar reaction to a fav actor of mine He was good looking, talented, adorable, helped people in lower economic conditions, even adopted a homeless child. He had been married for 20 years, had 3 children, and showed all signs of being a devoted family man. What's not to like? Then he had a mid-life crisis. Became a cliche. He had an affair with a co-star _who knew he was married_ Abandoned then divorced his wife when the affair was uncovered, basically taught his 4 daughters that they can devote their lives to loving a man, but he can discard them whenever he feels like it for a younger model. I was disappointed and disgusted.
An adult should never look up to anyone. I don’t look up to Julius Cesar, Victor Hugo or Marie Curie, Tolkien and many others. I am inspired by their stories. But, I know they were only humans and all had their strengths and weaknesses. Fortunately, I learned this at about 20, when I realized that a brilliant expert can be an immature child in other aspects of life, but maybe this has deprived me of the thrills of fandoms and separated me from many fan connections
He also might be a great guy who sometimes does really selfish awful destructive things to people, may hate himself for it, may not, who knows. We contain multitudes.
As a queer individual, I have respected his support of the LGBTQ community and representation in his works, while not perfect, was validating. It’s disappointing to me if these allegations are true. I believe the victims too.
The thing that gets me is that he's done so much good work for things like R.A.I.N and other women centered organizations and he speaks out against r@pe and domestic abuse and THIS COMES OUT ABOUT HIM!? How do I reconcile this?
Thank you for posting this. I have struggled with this too as a long-time fan, but I think as you say, it brings into question the whole aspect of "admiring" and "being a fan of". I too was young enough once that had I come into his orbit and he had paid attention to me, I would have been bowled over and delighted. I shudder at the thought, now. How vulnerable is any young, trusting fan to someone like him? It's made me question -what is fandom? And I realised for me at least it's making someone whose qualities we have within ourselves, better than us- externalising our own qualities onto someone we don't know. You said "He's like me," and in ways, he is. I'm sure you are a brilliant writer and storyteller. But so few people's gifts are celebrated we look to those who have been celebrated and "admire them" become a "fan" - and it's saying "this person did better than I did, I need to look up to them, see them as the ideal". What we don't take into account is people can often get famous and successful because they are ruthless, selfish, entitled or plain narcissistic. Once famous they are certainly in a recipe for narcissism with the whole world telling them how great they are all the time. And once there they will work with publicity people who will make their magnanimousness look like charity and caring. IT made me call into question every person I admire, and now see that I am doing so from a skewed perspective of idealism. I think it calls for a getting away from admiration and pulling into appreciation, which is a more equal place to view someone from. In terms of the "allegations" I don't think we even need to go there. By his own admission, he sexually engaged an employee young enough to be his grand-daughter on her first day of work for him within hours of meeting her. He admits knowing she was vulnerable and mentally unstable. He then paid her money to bribe an NDA after by his admission a 3 week period of "work" for which she was never contracted. I don't need to know any more. Sadly I do know much more, but that's enough.
It's such a tough one. We admire art that shows us things we recognize about the human experience, it articulates things we feel but can't articulate. But there's no reason to expect that the gift of being able to do that should belong to a moral or admirable person. People who do terrible things still feel and experience life, and sometimes they just happen to be the best at painting a picture of it. Artists tend to be complicated, damaged people, it's often what gives life and depth and truth to their work. Maybe we just need to start expecting that a person's life probably contains everything their art does, in some way.
Has he been convicted yet? Just asking. Seems rather high-handed to indict him, try him, find him guilty and punish him before there has even been an arrest. Sir Cliff Richard comes to mind, as well as many others accused and found innocent. (I'm a woman by the way).
@@snowysnowyriver Of course not and that is not and was not the intention of this video. I wanted to start a conversation about how I was feeling - and it looks as if I started a healthy conversation with a ton of opinions and takeaways. Thanks for participating.
I have been surprised about the radio silence about this in general among the bookish community because of who it’s about. Thanks for being vulnerable about this.
It reminds me alot of Marion Zimmer Bradley... Who I always felt there was something off about her books that was hard for me to put my finger on, though I knew there were specific opinions she wrote that I knew were close minded or just plain untrue... But then all the stuff came out about her and I was like: I knew it, I knew it. And now her books are kind of an embarassment and I've no motivation to read even the anthologies. Everytime I see her quoted somewhere I feel like adding "and look how that turned out " She has no credibility anymore... I was never really a reader of Harry Potter. Those books did not exist when I was the right age. But she outed herself. And does not show any sign of revaluating the poison that leaves her fingers these days. As far as Gaiman is concerned I encountered kind of a nasty streak on his twitter account and found myself growing exhausted with his appearance in pop up ads on social media and not really enjoying reading his stuff nearly as much. So again, even though I didnt say hes definitely a sexual predator, it definitely fits the misgivings I have been having with what I was reading of his.
Hi lovey - been meaning to message for ages and will, but replying here befire i forget! Very brave to put yourself out their and talk about someone you respected whose work lifted you and inspired you. To see their feet were clay on the pedestal. I have had a similar experience, (many have had much worse) with JK Rowling turning out to be transphobic. I grew up on Harry Potter, the books were sbout inclusion, bravery, loyalty, freedom - but to hear she does not allows those values to be for everyone made be uncomfortable and as she got more hateful and loud about her hatred and heari g readers who found a place they belonged in her books now be told, actually you aren't invited to this party is crule. My books i still have for what they meant. I hope to re-read, but i have them hidden at the back of the shelf. Any other books we got gifted by her i have charity shopped as I can't bring myself to read them. Different situation, different circumstances and people feel differently. Hope you still get past joy and i appreciate the video 🫂💜📚
Thank you for making this video. I made a video months ago about how much I adored his work, a few months before the allegations came out, and it really hurts. I made that video private. It just hurts when you put someone on a pedestal. But like you said, we need to believe victims. This is the first video I’ve seen on the subject, so thank you for being braver than the rest of us and addressing this head on.
@@Mister_Sosotris Thank you for that lovely comment. I’ve sang his praises in previous videos. All of us can feel the sting of the news. There are videos out there that deal with the specifics of the allegations, but I wanted to steer clear and talk about how we fans process this type of information. Thanks for sharing.
I’m honestly not sure most celebrities much enjoy being celebrities. Especially writers. Many make do with it. It comes with the money, the acclaim, the access to certain amenities. The access to young, attractive, swooning fans. Unfortunately for some - especially Gaiman now - one or more of these trappings can lead to a downfall. Sex is unfortunately too common a weakness, especially in male artists, if not males in general. Mix in entitlement, control, and the hot-and-cold nature of most artists, it’s not surprising this happens. One day he’s fawning, affectionate, and playing his part as a woman’s sexual fantasy. The next day he’s distant, irritated, withdrawn and too busy. Push comes to shove, and then he becomes abusive and controlling. And I’m not giving Mr. Gaiman a pass. He’s brought this on himself. But let’s also see how he handles it. Stephen King was an alcoholic and a raging coke head for much of his heyday in the 80s and 90s. He got through it. He confronted his weaknesses and overcame them. What’s inside Gaiman that makes his writing so beautiful and engaging is still there, but there are darker things too, and he will have to overcome them lest they overcome him - as they now threaten to do. If this is the worst it gets for Gaiman, then perhaps the best is yet to come. But if he does not get help and confront this darker side, it can get much worse.
Thank you for your comment and insight. This remains a very complicated subject to discuss and analyze, but this comment section offers so many different facets. Thanks for adding to the conversation. - MJ
Thank you. This is how (i think) so many of us feel on this. It really does sting. Humans are fallible, but their good that they do put out, that affects others on fundamentally life altering ways, shouldn't be condemed because the person that authored them and is in some ways a hero for that... also has a dark side. I believe the victims. But, i also beieve that there are victims out there with malicious intent. I'm on the same page with you as keeping, and still allowing myself to be entertained by his work... but I won't be attending any potential meet and greets in the future. Again, thank you sooo much for putting this out. The phrasing and the kindness is a welcome tone and i think, more people ought to take a note from you. Also, i literally said "Hello!" out loud when you said "Hello GenX" HAHA ♥
Skimming through these comments, I notice one thing. Most have already convicted someone who hasn't had a trial. Podcast accusations are legal evidence now? How about waiting for the full story?
Thank you, you articulated everything I'm been feeling. I will continue to read his books, and essays and I will still listen to his wonderful voice on audible, but I am so disappointed in him. Unfortunately, he is not the only man that has disappointed me in my life. I guess it's good that I still have the capacity to be disappointed, that I still believe there are honorable people in the world.
Thank you for adding to this conversation. That’s where I have the most struggle - the capacity for disappointment and still believing that there are good people on the planet.
To give my answer to the question "Why do people put other people on pedestals wgen they haven't even met?" it's lack of personal power. In a nutshell. Most don't even realise how often they give it away. And what that action actually looks / feels like. Nor what the empowered state is and how to embody it and reclaim it when a manipulation (marketing) ploy is used on them. Personal power isn't over the top and it doesn't have anything to do with overwhelming others. There isn't education on personal power. And the star industry doesn't want that. It needs people worshipping others so that they become excellent consumers. Otherwise, we wouldn't see a famous man falling down and his work going down with it.
Totally get it as a fan since I was 15, now 39. I was also attracted to him as a teen, and definitely looked up to him as an aspiring writer. All that said, somehow when the news broke I wasn’t as shocked as I thought I would be. Disappointed surely, but not all that surprised. It’s almost like somehow deep down I knew, and I definitely believe the victims.
I heard the news like a week after I finished reading Neverwhere, and I loved that one so much that I was about to go all in on reading Neil, so this was a bummer. It's hard for me to find writers I like, so I guess I'll keep looking. Suggestions welcome. I think the truth of humanity is that people who do terrible things or treat people badly can ALSO have positive parts about them. It's entirely possible that Neil means every positive word he's spoken in the past, or every uplifting thing he's written in a book, but also has a moral weakness around this particular part of his life.
Like anyone else, he just needs to be properly punished if he is found guilty. And once he has paid his debt to society, he can rejoin it. A good example is Mike Tyson, who went to jail for rape, but who has returned to the public eye.
I so agree with this. I have liked his work from the Sandman days, and when some strange events made it so, I happened upon him reading the American Gods book in Oslo. I was just randomly at a place, and then my favourite comic book author walked in and started reading. I didn't even know he was publishing novels. Later that week, I also greeted him in the street, thinking he was someone else (this was before his fame, so he looked really surprised). He is a part of my coming-of-age story and has been one of my favourite authors for a long time. However, I went off him and stopped following him on Twitter a few years ago. At first, I was curious about his relationship with Amanda and followed them both. Though she seemed attention-seeking, in the end, I found I liked her better than him. She posted a lot but at least seemed open and genuine. He just seemed to be introverted, endlessly self-promoting. I know he has supported good causes, and I can't put my finger on what it was. There's nothing wrong with being an introvert. Perhaps I feel he is curating his own image a little too obviously. The open marriage thing annoyed me as well (there is a good article about that somewhere about why these things annoy us. For me, it was the "I'm too good to just limit myself to one person"-aspect of it). The point is, he had done nothing wrong, I just went off him and stopped following them both. Then the divorce and everything leading up to it happened, and they seemed messier than ever. When this final, horrible thing happened, I was surprised but not shocked. His books are still a part of me and as someone else said here, I feel like part of me is in them, not only the author. But I will not support him financially any more.
I think looking up to creative people I admire is largely an aspirational thing for me. So, yes, it is hard when they disappoint or are revealed to be unforgivably flawed. It is disorienting. What is important to remember, for me, is that my aspirations and my ideals are not tarnished just because the hero I had imagined shared them has fallen. Good talk. Thank you so much, MJ. 🤗
This discussion always confused me. After learning more about people it no longer surprises me. From people thinking their idols are perfect, or anyone or anything is perfect, to judgment and ignorance or just plain lies... Not surprised anymore. From a Buddhist monk that got a nun pregnant(a nun he attracted to join and leave life?!) to an author on meditation and mindfulness that had a cult like following(not just because it helped many) turning out to be a phony and worse... Or just about every mindfulness teacher have little to no story to why they pursue their goal.. One of the worst even mentioned they chose mindfulness as a career because there was so much money to be made, or one of the originators of mindfulness in the West(and a piece of why it is so poorly understood) who was clear he could not believe that anyone would listen to him, let alone pay him: he proceeded to fake data in studies: putting healing behind for decades. All still followed by many. Or one of the most famous, covered abuse, then called it out only to return once again. Can we ignore the abuse and hypocrisy? No. But if they are good teachers, as many bad practitioners are, then we can learn. Winning or learning, believe nothing of what you hear, half of what you read but always: trust but verify. If they guide us that is not failure, but we should not build up idols as that is the true danger. The failure seems to lie in our hubris and ignorance. If we stay aware that we all have shadows within, we might not be so blindsided and react so emotionally about experience and often miss the lessons within.
I was a fan of Justin Timberlake until Britney called him out for cheating on her first in her memoir (I believe Britney obviously) and that's when I decided I would still listen to his music but I would never ever be a fan of his ever again. And I also believe he was intoxicated when he got a DWI just two months ago so Idk why his lawyer is helping him get off of it by saying the police officer was lying because if he was lying why would he give him a field soberity test when he ran a stop sign and was drifting in and out of the lane he was in? So basically what I'm trying to say is that I lost all respect for him as whole and why people are continuing to look up to a cheater and someone who would put others in danger on the roads and is trying to justify his actions when what he did was just wrong on all levels. (Millennial here)
70% of the population cheats on a loved one at some point in time. Allow a bit of room for human failings. My 2 cents. Heck. MLK Jr. cheated on his wife a number of times. But was he a hero to the world? Yes. Yes he was.
I am male, so this may or may not disqualify. But I grew up in a society where violence against women was not only encouraged but emphasized. I'm an immigrant to the US. The American society has a high expectation of itself but very little accountability on an individual basis. The abuse of women in our society is widespread and has and will become worse. It's now going to be nearly impossible for a victim (woman) to go to court and win especially after Johnny Depp ruling. No one is perfect and there shouldn't be any expectation. But we need repercussions and punishment to go along with it. We cannot have fame and stardom adjudicate violence against women, especially because it's extremely hard to prove...we need to facilitate expertise in investigations and deliberations otherwise no one should be shocked to know this; abuse is common, in every spectrum of society (women and children).
This was a really good video. I haven't seen much conversation about this on booktube, and I really appreciate that you brought it up, and were so open and honest about your feelings. Subscribing.
I mean as a kid I loved coraline, hear a lot of other kids liked it too. Some kids like being scared or enjoying semi serious stories. The fact that the fan base for fnaf was composed mostly of children says a lot (its literally a franchise where the central plot element is child murder) I feel like saying that I'm worried people are letting this news colour too much of their perception of these stories to see hidden malice and general wrongness where there wasn't before.
Exactly! Why put anyone on a pedestal? Put yourself there. 🎉 Only you have the power to be the magnificent you that You Are, change your life and make it the Absolute best life you desire❤
I read Sandman when the comic book came out. Few people read the comic at the time. Gaiman didn't think it would go beyond six issues before it was cancelled by DC. But the first tradepaperback changed that. It attracted many new readers, especially women and non comic book readers to a medium dominated in the U.S by super hero comics. He helped changed that, along with other comic book creators like Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, and Alan Moore, to name just a few. I was surprised to see him write novels later in his career and to see him enter the literary world (a large portion of which looks down on comics as not equal to novels and films). He was a good ambassador for both worlds. His novels didn't attract me, though, still don't, but Sandman and his comics still do. I still respect him and admire Sandman. The allegations haven't changed my opinion about him or his work. I never place anyone on an unrealistic pedestal forgetting they are human just like me, so when anything unflattering or worse is revealed or alleged as in this case, I'm not disillusioned. The problem for Neil is that many of his fans don't see him as a human being and have unreasonable expectations about him. That's on them. Gaiman and the women were adults in a consensual relationship at the time. Gaiman has been cooperating with the police and they haven't found anything criminal. At this point it is delving into the sexual acts by adults, which are by nature complicated, intimate, and personal. When I was nineteen I was dating women much older than me. Not once did any of my friends tell me it was inappropriate or that maybe I was being taken advantage of. If they they it would've been insulting to me because I was an adult. If I remained or stayed in a relationship it was on me. Whenever I've seen or read interviews by Neil, I never was led to believe his ethics and morality were above question. That's now what he was talking about. He never misled me. But when he spoke about his reading, creativity, and how he sees storytelling, he was, is, effective and convincing. Now, if it comes out one day that all his literary ideas and opinions were not his but that he plagiarized and copied others books and ideas and claimed them as his own, then my opinion about him will change.
I get your point but I have a problem with a 61 year old pouncing on his 22 year old nanny in the hot tub within hours of meeting her. (Those were their ages at the time.) He’s much older and her employer. It’s not illegal but it’s definitely immoral to me.
Thank you both for sharing and engaging in the discussion. There are so many facets to consider. It definitely will be a story that won’t go away anytime soon.
I think you're missing the detail about the twenty year age gap with two young women (one who was employed as a nanny for his kid) and the power dynamic of him being a celebrity.
there's no smoke without fire
Best comment of the bunch! 👏🏻👏🏻
_Guilty by suspicion,_ is the other way of putting that.
@@galaxytrio they never said who was smoking 😉 hasn’t this story died out by now? I’m over it TBH.
@@babyonemoretime5011 there’s always bad wagons to jump on and false accusations
@@babyonemoretime5011 There is absolutely sometimes smoke without fire, from that lacrosse team to Tara Reade. The surest sign of a false accusation is if the story changes. If you have been the victim of harassment / assault, there are no "versions" of what happened, just the painful unwanted reality of what happened. That was the tell with Tara Reade, she changed her story all over the place.
Beyond that, the guy's reputation counts for zero. Completely ignore it.
This case is angering, and I'm not even a megafan of Gaiman's work. There was a point well made on social media: "Before you judge Neil Gaiman, remember all the warmth and humanity in his work, the joy it brought. Then judge him even more harshly because you know he knows exactly how to be a decent person and does the opposite."
That is a point well made indeed! Thank you for sharing.
Funny. Gaiman is not without some talent, but what I primarily remember about his books, after I had read a few, was the impression "this was written by a sexual predator." Also, how can a moral nihilist be morally sound?
@@johnwhelan9663 I just want to believe in good people once in a while. 🤷🏻♀️
@@johnwhelan9663you can be very cynical while holding morals, because people can be hypocrits.
You still can even write messed up dynamics, and write it aproviate bad in context and wrong
Yes you can call yourself a moral nihilist yet want that.
Not saying anything against the neil gaiman part.
@@marocat4749 I'm not interested in debating broad generalities whether one can be "cynical" (in some sense while "holding morals" (in some sense). When I referenced Gaiman's books, I had a number of very specific things in mind. Which I can list if you like. And even so, I did not think I had found absolute proof that Gaiman was, in comparison to others, a particularly immoral man. I was merely, as I said, sufficiently suspicious to google if there had been allegations against him.
It’s one of the sad truths of life that flawed, fucked up and even evil people can have talent and make amazing things. And I stop supporting them financially when it comes to light. And sometimes it’s so bad I can’t enjoy their work anymore.
But here’s the thing I try and remember: the special place those works of flawed people have in your heart? They’re not there JUST because of those authors. You bring huge parts of yourself to those stories to make them special: your life, your experiences, your sense of meaning.
And no amount of the author being shitty can take that away from you, even if the person is forever marred.
Oh, we all need to read this. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Pinning! 🤗🤗
This hit home for me. I hadn't thought of it that way before. Thank you ❤
I used to read Cerebus in the early eighties by Bill Sim.Something very similar happened to him but those Cerebus comics were special to me growing up and it is hard to separate the writer and artist from the real person.
The most despicable author might be Arthur C. Clarke. His alleged activities in Sri Lanka were swept under the carpet but if you believe there's no smoke without a fire it would make it hard to read anything by him. I find it to be a pretty messed up world if everyone is on Neil Gaiman's case or HP Lovecraft's when Clarke gets a pass.
By the way it doesn't sound good. Ironically Amazon cancelled a Conan the Barbarian project because the head of entertainment didn't like Robert E. Howard's 1930s additudes. At least they knew what they had with him and his short life was free of scandal. They thought Neil Gaiman's values were liberal enough to make a show though. Apparently not. This case is very similar to CBC host Jian Ghomeshi. A darling of the network with all the right views until they found out he has peculiar tastes when it comes to intimacy.
This reminds me of a quote from Dune Messiah.
Here lies a toppled god,
his fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
a narrow and a tall one.
I loved that book! Perfectly said. Thanks for sharing. - MJ
"the same crowd that cheers for you, is the same crowd that cheers for your hanging." Terry Prachette
What a coincidence. I just read Dune Messiah a week before the allegations broke out.
Not sure whats wrong with that in this context, of course his biggest fans are going to be the most hurt (besides the victims) by his disgusting actions. Youd prefer if his biggest fans kept supporting him? @@zodlord5669
Let's not quote shitty novels why judging shitty people, mkay? Dune messiah, more like dupe shmessiah
I think putting people on pedestals and idolizing and being super fans of artists, authors, politicians, musicians and really just people is a recipe for disappointment.
As I got older and people in my real life such as relatives, teachers, co workers etc.. disappointed me greatly it helped me learn that lesson.
I enjoy peoples work a lot and may even collect it and admire the work, but I know in the back of my mind that I do not know these people. I hope they are wonderful but they may not be.
And that’s the thing about people. Even ones who do rotten things can create or do wonderful things and this is what makes humanity so messy.
Agree. I guess it's the whole irrational belief that they can do no wrong and that makes for the worst letdown. Sad really. I meant what I said about Keanu though. 😂
Well said, I will only add that we as well are guilty of disappointing others, including those we love and love us.
@@ingridfitz5677 we are all human and we make mistakes, some mistakes harsher than others
I think this is the exact point. And I don't even think you can ever trust someone's public image. I know enough industry people to know that it's all part of their job, it's never who they really are. Richard Osman's podcast is good for this, they do sometimes spill tea on celebs who have nice guy images who are really quite unpleasant. (Dwayne Johnson is one..)
I tend to just think why can't these men behave? It seems simple enough just to be half decent. It is just disappointing and never worth idolising anyone.
@@ericamacs3875 Thank you for adding to the conversation!
So well spoken about this horrible situation. I first found out about Gaiman through Tori Amos's lyrics. She's mentioned him in several songs, and I always admired their loyal, longtime platonic friendship. I can't imagine how this news has been for her since she is a survivor of brutal sexual assault and a key spokesperson in the RAINN organization. This is very hard for us longtime book fans to process, and I'm sure many in his close circle also had no idea. 💔
Thanks Johanna. I agree with you. People keep saying, I wonder what Tori has to say. I know what Amanda has to say from her lyrics. Interestingly, from a lot of the comments in this video, I get the impression the some of us are the last to find out. 😞
A mistake I think we make when talking about abuse and power, is separating "abusers" into their own class of citizen. We have a lot of social dialogue around clinical narcissism these days too which complicates it, and I just think it keeps us from seeing what's actually at play.
Neil is a person, just like all of us. He's done very good and wholesome and kind things, and he's done heinous horrible things. We're ALL capable of doing heinous and horrible things, but 98% of us choose not to.
Neil made an incredibly awful choice. AND we know that he made that choice *repeatedly*. He has untold victims at this point, we have no idea how many will come forward as time goes on, but anecdotally at least 14 spoke to Amanda Palmer.
My point thought is that we don't need him to be a monster to have done horrible and awful things. We don't need to other him. We need to hold him accountable and find out what tf else he's done.
And we need to look at WHY wealth and power corrupts people, or perhaps why corrupt people keep ending up with gross amounts of wealth and power. But comforting ourselves by believing abusers are just abnormally more evil than regular people doesn't actually has a positive effect imo.
Instead, it allows us to never ask what in our society and culture is creating this, and we need to know the answer if we want to stop it.
People who rise to fame consistently end up being horrific and awful. Why. We have to stop avoiding the fact that we could ALL make these choices, but we don't. Why don't we? Why did he?
It's not as simple as just carting folks off to prison, especially since cases like this so frequently favor abusers.
Thanks so much for adding to the discussion.
@@M-J Thanks for having the conversation. 💜
@@catie5939 💜
My thing is tho, why is expecting the bare minimum of decency holding someone to an impossible standard? I didn’t think Neil was a god, I just thought he was what he said he was. Should we assume everyone is a monster?
Great point. I think we have to assume that everyone has a shadow self not many get to see. The level of monster revealed is up to that person. Idk. I really hate thinking the way, but it’s proving itself true these days.
My personal motto remains true: always try to be kind and do no harm.
Part of what I think it is comes from us connecting to the art on such a deep level that we feel such a connection with the creators as well.
💯 We seek like minded beings. It’s in our basic nature I think.
I didn't know until this video. This is why I don't generally have a desire to meet famous people. I figure they can only disappoint. It is rough if you have spent years loving their work....to just drop that love when something like this hits. Those stories are now part of YOU. It is hard to separate.
Sorry 🫣
Thanks for this MJ. As someone of the same generation I have been a huge Gaiman fan for a long time. Sandman and Good Omens started me off and I’ve read most of his work for years.
When similar allegations were made about Warren Ellis, another one of that generation of British writers and artists who turned the American conic industry on its head, that was a bitter pill.
But this one sucked. Like you said, I always kinda assumed he was one of the good ones.
Why can’t we have nice things?
I think separation of art from artist is important. So many great writers and artists were such horrors of human beings that if that separation doesn’t exist, you end up consuming no art. But it’s bloody hard, especially when the artist in question is still around making that art.
There aren’t easy answers to this. But talking helps.
I know. It's so hard. I totally get it!
@@TheBookThing agreed, you can’t take his books out of my dead hands as these works now belong to the public, yes he’s the author but what we as readers interpret and get out of said books is ours, period. That being said I will not be buying any of his works from this point on ( I’ll buy second hand if interested ). His brilliance is undeniable which makes this all sting more.
I just watched Nick Cave’s interview with Colbert immediately prior to this video. There are very interesting comparisons to make there. Nick has admitted openly that he was a nasty little guy at the start of his career. He has been honestly awful in the past. Being punk and part of the punk scene there was that licence to be a bad guy and you know what? If he had no talent at all and made a living doing something else, he would still have been like that, I am sure. I can accept Nick Cave as he is and love the beauty of his constantly developing and maturing and deepening work BECAUSE he never pretended to be anything else. The important difference was that Gaiman and Joss Whedon pretended to be on our side, when it was actually just charm, another tool in their seduction tool kit. Nick made a living out of being honestly problematic, and that helps the audience think through what he gives us in his art. At least you know to keep your heart protected. It’s the feeling that we’ve been deceived that makes us feel sick. It’s the sudden change in dynamic from safety to danger, even if it is not personal, that shocks us. If Gaiman offered one of my daughters an internship I would have squealed with joy and I could have made a massive mistake by letting her go! That is why revelations like this are frightening and cause such outrage. It’s not about perfection or idealisation. It’s about _safety_ .
@@L-K-Jellyfish Thank you for sharing this. I love the brutally honest Nick Cave of today. His Q&A series is a fave of mine.
I forgot about Joss Whedon. Dammit now I’m extra sad. 😞
@@riveramnell143 😑
I feel you on all of this. I was heartbroken and disappointed to hear about the Neil Gaiman allegations. I think we all believed Neil was a good person and he always seemed so lovely and polite but I believe the survivors and it's sickening to hear what's happened to them. Yeah we really shouldn't put people up on pedestals. We don't know what celebrities are really like or how they act in private. Omg yes! I'm such a Keanu Reeves fan too so I'd be so devastated if anything negative came out about him too.
Hugs! 🤗
Until anything negative actually comes out, anyone deserves a benefit of a doubt. We can’t judge people based on how someone else behaves.
@@waverlyking6045 I agree. It’s difficult to stay balanced and neutral when the news stings.
I'm not a huge Gaiman fan, but have read all the SANDMANs, and some of his books, and I've always wanted to like and admire Gaiman. And I have been greatly influenced by his approach to writing in general, and his sense of the power and magic of imagination, stories, and mythology. BUT ... deep in my gut feeling there were quite, nagging alarm bells and I couldn't quite go there. Watching him in interviews and events, I was always turned off by the the feeling he was "acting" -- that the lovely, polite persona was an act he was putting on, and that there was something darker underneath. Now it seems my gut feeling was right.
I think both things can be true - women are victimized by men with power/celebrity AND some men don’t understand that some women can’t reject sexual advances because they don’t know how, they’re afraid of retaliation or rejection, or any number of other things. The proof of character in the man is when this imbalanced dynamic is pointed out to him and he modifies his behavior (or not).
Indeed. Hearing the news was just a bit of a shock for me. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
I had always been an avid reader and my to-read stack was very tall when a couple friends started insisting I read him years ago.
One of them enthusiastically told me the plot of Coraline and they noticed, I guess, that I looked preoccupied and uncomfortable because they asked.
And I said, "well, the main theme of the story can be wanting to warn young readers about harmful strangers who want to love bomb you....of course. And a warning to parents to BE parents, no matter how constrained their time is.
But because you said he was partly inspired by his career preoccupying him so much while he was a parent ...and because it doesn't seem like he chose to slow down his career, even though he was already so successful....
The other message seems to be 'no matter how little time or or attention or affection I give you, no matter how low a priority you seem to be in my day to day life, don't you DARE risk loving someone else, because they will be worse than I am. In fact, don't you dare even try to IMAGINE a parent who will meet your emotional needs.' That's....wow.
That feels deeply manipulative and unsettling to me.... "
After that, they stopped talking to me about his work.
But I always stuck in my mind.
Writing that book while a parent seemed to be burying manipulation that borders on emotional abuse UNDER complex, nuanced art that critics will praise as "not didactic" and "a modern Grimms fairytale"...
It just made me feel glad that I was not raised by Neil Gaiman.
It felt like a little flicker of a hidden, very red flag for me.
It somehow made it all worse that the main character is required to save her own parents.... And then learn to be contented with the life that had previously left her feeling so lonely.
Possible undertones of parentification and scapegoating the child as **causing** the problem by experiencing a wish to have a little more parental attention?
And then, when the American movie was made, the ONE thing he didn't like about it was that she made a friend who helped save her from the Other Mother.
On the one hand, this reads as a feminist theme wanting her to save herself!
On the other, it reads as the author's discomfort from a departure of the themes I thought I had picked up on....the main character is allowed to make an emotional attachment who actually invests time and attention in her, and helps her, I stead of requiring her to push down her emotional needs and save the whole family.
Just...I don't know, man.
I didn't like it.
Fantastic insight. Thank you for participating in this conversation.
Enough other people whose work I admire have turned out to be less than admirable people that this news about Gaiman didn't sting so much. The thing I try to remember is that people are complicated. People aren't good or bad. We're people. It's our actions that have moral consequences. We can genuinely do good things with one hand while using the other hand to stab and cripple.
So true! Thanks for sharing!
When someone abused their power and coerced ppl to consent to sex (which btw is no consent, which btw means it's r*pe), to differentiate between the action and the person being bad becomes semantics, IMO. But in the case Gaiman, I see a lot of this, we're sort of 'dancing around the issue' cause it's someone we used to admire. Lots of "people are messy.... people are complicated... people are flawed". Examining the integrity of the podcast that first broke the story. Even expressing doubt how believable the women are. I wonder if the same leeway would be given if there were the same allegations against someone we dislike, someone like Weinstein for instance. Probably not. Btw I include myself in this. The first reaction is to make excuses, benefit of the doubt etc. And then I realize what I am doing and I sort of hate how not objective I am. Perfect opportunity to examine one's bias.
I adore Neil Gaiman's books and connected with many of them on a deep level. The Sandman introduced me to so many other incredible stories, myths, and artists. I met Neil Gaiman once. He was gracious and kind and took some moments out of his busy evening to talk to me. I can never think of that interaction the same way now. Clearly, we never really know who other people are, but I respected Neil Gaiman. I made the mistake of thinking he was a decent human. Obviously, there are other authors and artists who have done similar things and even worse. That doesn't make it any less awful. The other part of it that infuriates me is that Gaiman would dare to use his Autism as an excuse with one of his accusers. I am Autistic. I know the difference between right and wrong, probably more so than most neurotypical people. I've also been the victim of SA, like so many other Autistic people. Humanity is so disappointing.
Humanity IS disappointing. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me. That part also made me very very upset. Hugs to you.
I’ve had vague “alarm” bells about Gaiman for a while now (was a HUGE follower of his on LiveJournal), as there were just some things that were…off about him and what he was sharing with his young audience. But I pushed that aside because I did like his writing. But now? It’s something I’m not able to push aside any longer, and my heart hurts for these women.
And people can do morally great things to cover up the rot beneath the surface. It’s so hard to hold both points of view in our heads.
I’m sorry that you’re having to grapple with this, MJ, since you are such a fan of his. 💖
Do you remember the things he shared with his young audience?
There were always rumors of him having young groupies at conventions. And he was known for sleeping around a ton.
@@BbGun-lw5vi - it was just weirdly personal stuff? Like, I hate to be cliche, but it had the feel of that Steve Buscemi “hey there fellow youths” skit from SNL, like he was trying hard to fit in. Plus all the stuff about his ex-wife, and the start of his relationship with Amanda Palmer.
It’s a toughie for sure. Thank you so much for sharing!
Def his relationship w Amanda Palmer began my icky feels Abt him @@pandorabox82
@panidorabox82 I followed him then, too, and I was uncomfortable with some of the things he shared, but I would have had a difficult time explaining why. Then when when he and Amanda shared that they had an open relationship, I thought it was oversharing. If both parties agree, that's fine, but why make it public? I know not to idolize people, but I thought he was a decent human. I respected him as a creative force who wrote books I connected with on a deep level.
Neil Gaiman's books together with Anne Rice's are part of my whole life as a youngster and the 50 old woman that I'm now..I never never will get rid of Neils comics and books, I'll treasure them forever..but I truly hope and support that he pays dearly for all the lives he has destroyed 😢😢😢😢
🤗🤗
I remember how disappointed I was when I heard the allegations against actor Kevin Spacey. How I knew his incredible body of work would be clouded by the controversy
I agree with you.
And Spacey's case was completely dismissed in the end. But of course nobody cared about that in today's world of "guilty until proven innocent".
And he has since been completely exonerated in court, a court which determined the accusations were lies.
@@russ9117 That is a good thing!
That's a good point. It's that aspect of it as well-how could they do this to their own work? It feels like they betray their own legacy, and so their work, and, in extension, the people who love what they do.
I believe victims too, but allegations can be made by people who are not victims. How do you know who's a victim and who's not without due process?
Again, I’m simply processing my thoughts from TWO weeks ago.
Very good point. Innocent until proven guilty. I think all allegations should be taken seriously.....but I know one of the people, and I would gladly be a character witness against her.
I adore Neil Gaiman's work. I consider him to be one of my favourite writers. That will never cross over into thinking he's a good person. This is the difference. I think most people constantly have that prehistoric brain where we see success as being good.
@@JackWard66 I think my brain just assumes that most people are good, when in fact they aren’t - success or not.
I can't believe he was best mates with Terry Pratchett. That stings even more
Yep, it definitely doesn’t make it any easier.
_"Why do we..."_ - I never have. I've never pretended any knowledge of someone personally based on their art. I don't expect any celebrity to be anything other than human - sometimes to a fault, which may be why their art is good. There is no pedestal for me. I also can't honestly say I care about celebrities leveraging their fame / power for perks (like sexual access). If a rock star wanted to get famous to sleep with women it makes no difference at all to me. Unless they've actually forced someone to do something - thus breaking the law - it doesn't matter. And concepts like 'power imbalances' are deliberately vague notions to imply 'extra badness' to things which are either criminal or they're not. In the case of Gaiman I think she was an employee or something (the initial accuser) which makes things more messy.
Well, good for you - a lot of us have. Indeed, it seems messy. Thanks for sharing.
This really hurt me. I know my pain is trivial compared to the people he hurt.
But when I learned to write, he was an inspiration to me, and I always wanted to be better than Neil. I believed in him. My heart is truly broken
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for your thoughtful and careful words here. I’ve not heard of any news about him - so I might need to go find out what is going on. But this is such an important discussion to have about how do we separate creatives from their work if they turn out to be problematic. It’s one I struggle with concerning some of my own favorite authors ( like Dickens, J K Rowling and others). I really appreciate your insight here!
Thank you. Feel free to add to this conversation. The Rolling Stone article was, I think, very well done.
I feel your pain. I'm a Gaiman fan. It does not change how I feel about his past works, but I doubt we see anything new for him for a long while...maybe ever.
So sad. 😞
Thanks for sharing this. This is very tough to process. Neil Gaiman inspired my love of reading as a teenager, and while I don't read him much anymore, to this day American Gods is one of my favourite novels. I honestly hope the allegations aren't true, but it looks like another case where in order to deal with this, I need to learn to separate the art from the artist.
Yep, it’s a topic to process as a community and as a group think and the grouo support is what I thought was best. Please add to the conversation on your channel if you feel like it. Hugs. - MJ
"I don't have any heroes. None. They're all useless." - John Lydon
That’s great!
I was a Neil Gaiman fan for a long time, not a super fan and I didn't like everything he's done but I'd at least try it. Now, I am upset. He clearly was untruthful with his fans, EVEN if it's only upheld that he ONLY did what he admitted too, I'm done with any new work. A 61 yo man jumping in a tub with a 21 yo nanny {who has been homeless} hired a couple hours ago just isn't acceptable to me, even if she was 100% ok the entire time. The power imbalance is just too great, and that would be true in all these cases, he's admitted to the sexual encounters, just not that there was abuse.. It's just ikky. I knew he was in an open marriage but I never thought it went this far.
The only thing I really struggle with is S3 of Good Omens, that involves so many other people. If they pull him as showrunner, I'm totally gonna watch. Otherwise, just not sure. I certainly will not try any new material from him.
PS, I really hope Terry Pratchett didn't know.
Thanks for sharing. I think we didn’t know all facets of Neil even though we think we might have - if that makes sense? The news definitely hit hard and a lot of us are processing it. I’ll still read his work because I really loved his writing - but I won’t pay for it. I’ll wait for second hand books. It’s just sad. 🤷🏻♀️
I guess I benefit from having trust issues, cause I always assume the public faces of famous people are fake to some degree, and that I don't have access to enough information to know where the facade ends. It is hard enough to truly know my real-life friends, and sometimes they do things that make me have to re-evaluate my image of them. Gaiman has always seemed like the sort of guy I'd have fun hanging out with in public spaces, but not someone I'd let walk me home.
Great analogy!
So... the man hasn't been convicted of anything as of yet. The word "allegedly" gets used a lot in this video. Yet the tone clearly says that the verdict of the Court of Public Opinion is already in.
Allegedly, yes!! I don’t want any legal action on my channel. The facts will all play out sooner or later whether we are allowed to know or not.
I’m simply a fan trying to process the disappointing headlines.
I've been avoiding this one. It feels like Bill Cosby all over again from a fan standpoint. Gaiman was always a top author for me. How many times have I said to myself, "This writing reminds me of Neil Gaiman?" I will probably read him again. I think reading from flawed people is part of the purpose of reading sometimes. That said, Neil, we are on a break right now. Thank you for the thoughtful video, MJ.
Seems like he has been too - no sightings since July.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I don't know the full details as yet, so need to look into it but I heard a mention of this a few days ago and I, like you, felt shook because I am a fan and admirer of him as a person. I think what you say about not idolising people rings true. They tell you never to meet your heroes, and it is for the very reason that they are really only human at the end of the day, with all the good and bad that that entails. They are almost bound to disappoint, so I'm not someone who seeks to ever do that. I am someone who finds it relatively easy to separate art from artist in most cases, so if the allegations are upheld, I will still value and read Gaiman's existing body of work - at least the parts I already valued as I am not a blanket across the board fan of all his writing but was more so about his work for libraries etc. And I am with you on Keanu - he was my first teen obsession!
Thanks Jack. You totally get it. Keanu for life!
@@M-J just watched a video over on Council of Geek on the podcast itself - worth watching.
Some good points. A lot of issues here. Almost like it’s the subject for a good livestream discussion. Just saying.
PS - the day Keanu falls, it’s time to just pack it in and move on to the next life.
@@BookBlather I agree on all points!
I'm shocked that a rich and famous man with adoring fans has slept with people. Lol. If there were some underage people involved okay he should probably go to jail for that. But consenting adults fooling around is hardly shocking in this day and age
LOL. I simply didn’t think about him in that way.
They say we shouldn't meet our heroes. I met Tom Baker (fourth Dr Who) he was drunk and rude and I was upset and disappointed. A lot of celebrities who do a lot for charities have many skeletons in their closets. Sorry one of your heroes has toppled off his pedestal. One of my favorite fantasy reads is Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I was shocked and upset when I heard disturbing news about the author. She has passed now, but I can't see myself picking up another of her books.
Perhaps surprisingly, Colin Baker is an absolute sweetheart. So was Patrick Troughton, but that is perhaps not as surprising.
Me & my father met Tom back in 1998 at a convention. I was 5 at the time & was very new to Tom's work on Dr.Who. My father grew up watching him in the 70s & was incredibly excited to see him. He seemed incredibly interested in me someone whom barely knew his work. But my father the guy who grew up watching him & followed his work for decades he couldn't care less about & was quite rude. My father walked away incredibly disappointed that day.
I loved the mists of Avalon and her books about Other characters in that world. But after I read her daughter’s deposition I couldn’t even bear to keep them in my house, and I had a big collection of several versions of each
@@dixiedawnmillergoode6850 Thank you for the information. It makes me want to read the deposition. I've tried several links from Google, and I haven't yet found one that is still active. I have found some excerpts, but so far they seem to be redacted in such a way as to make it seem that Marion *only* was aware of and did nothing about her husband's sexual abuse, *not* that she was responsible for primary sexual abuse as well. This seems to be the story promulgated in Wikipedia and elsewhere.
Nevertheless, _Entertainment Weekly_ published an excerpt from one of Greyland's emails, saying, "She was cruel and violent, as well as completely out of her mind sexually. I am not her only victim, nor were her only victims girls."
I can remember a time when Bradley was _the_ SF feminist icon. Not LeGuin, who had sense and produced rich nuanced commentary and was by all accounts a very good person.
This is interesting to me as a cognitive linguist with a political bent. It seems to me that there's a similar reality-distortion framing field going on in both cases, given that the mainstream press seems to be pulling a _pay no attention to the Gai-man behind the curtain_ thing. Frankly, I'm more concerned with this than with what particular individuals do. Given that people work so hard to enable the indicated behaviors, it seems likely that this will never end, and that there will be more and more people who will take advantage of performative pseudo-feminism for cover. It obviously and evidently works. It obviously and evidently has a much wider appeal than actual feminism. There needs to be some consciousness-raising about it.
That is, *if* anybody actually cares about ending sexual abuse and sexism. Frankly, I don't see a lot of evidence for that. At minimum, it appears not to be as appealing to do the work. More likely, bad things are functionally enabled because the performance is what drives the politics, and it wouldn't be possible to get so upset and sling mud if things actually got better. I cannot point a finger of individual blame on commentators, but people are people regardless of sex or whatever, and people are piggy.
I'm not the one being cynical here; I'm making fair comment on cynicism, which is plentiful.
Fame gives us the illusion of familiarity. Celebrities can be everyone's "friend" because there are layers of stories where we automatically associate them with an emotional journey. Authors even more so because they create and navigate that emotional journey. I remember when Fred Savage got revealed after a lifetime of multiple accusations. It gutted me because I grew up with him and he felt like a friend. His smile. His charm. His voice. All of them were so familiar to me. But then I realized...I don't know him. All signs point to him being an abuser who likes to fondle women behind the scenes. It takes a while to separate yourself emotionally from the people who you think you know from the real people who we really don't know.
Thanks so much for sharing and adding to the conversation.
I think we hold people like Neil Gaiman in trust is because it feels like they have been allies. When they appear to have gone out of their way to be supportive of vulnerable communities it's hard when we learn they weren't sincere.
@@cliffhansen7789 yep, I can get behind that. It’s sad that he’s been silent since July. 🤷🏻♀️
@@M-J After watching your video, I was thinking back to a conversation I had with a queer fan of Harry Potter. She said that as much as JK Rowling broke her heart, the author has basically inspired a whole army of future creatives who will take the baton but continue without the bad baggage. I started out this year participating in a contest to illustrate for a book by Gaiman, I was so hopeful he'd love my work and felt that my lifetime of enjoying his works would give me an advantage to win the contest. I didn't win, and was sad, but now I'm okay with having lost. I'm proud of my art, and I don't need Gaiman's approval! Maybe I'm not as good as a writer or storyteller, but I'm a good human and in a position of leadership where I'm helping the next generation of writers find their own voices. I might not be where I am if not for people like Gaiman, Rowling, or Whedon, but though I may never see money or fame, I can do what they failed to and keep my respect.
@ well said!
I wasn't sure, until I read the details. They remind me a LOT of the abusive men in the BDSM community, who use the power dynamics to excuse abuse. Thankfully, that's rare, as the community generally teaches people to communicate more effectively and openly--which leads to healthy sexual relationships.
But yeah. I don't think I'll be able to read his work without seeing it through this lens.
It’s a touchy one. Thank you for that insight.
I myself have never understood the need to idolize someone I don't personal know. I respect their work and how it improves my day, but the person themselves I never take a personal interest in. Not sure why this is. I suspect its because I have a thing about one way relationships, I just don't believe in them. To quote Kahless from StarTrek TNG "Perhaps the words are more important than the man"
Well said!
it takes two to tango, yes Gaiman was in a position of power, but also the women were in their rights to say no. Through all the accusations I realize one thing we all have a choice and I don't believe Gaiman coerced the girls. That much is true, but him being in that position he shouldn't be making offers to dumb little girls anyways and dumb girls shouldn't be sleeping with a older man who is famous looking for a paycheck.
I totally get that! It is a very tricky dance to make a video just scraping the surface without rattling cages. I get your point, I don’t think it’s kind to call someone dumb, but dumb old dudes should stay in their lane and keep it in their pants 😂🤷🏻♀️
@@M-J well let me rephrase it, it was smart of the girls to do what they did because they wanted a pay check, but that doesn't make it right. You cannot claim any moral stance or victimhood when you make decisions based on selfish desires.
@@M-J Well if I were to rephrase it and say the girls were smart that they took advantage of a rich old guy for sex and money that still doesn't make it right. You cannot claim any moral high-ground or victim hood based on selfish desires, that's Amber Heard Territory. If you do things like that you diminish real stories of real victims who were raped or abused.
This made me cry. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and helping me process this one, too.
Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry for brining about tears. It was tough, but the truth is we never really truly know anyone, but I still like to think the best in people. Hugs to you. - MJ
I share your sentiments. He had been such a big influence, inspiration & personal hero. Was doubtful of certain things with the first two allegations, but the 3rd one (Caroline Wallner), really cemented my opinion on him probably not being a morally sound person, who abused his power & influence. "Never meet your heroes" as they say. Deeply dissapointed in his behavior & actions.
It really is a hard place to be as a fan. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on my channel. Hugs to you.
@@M-J 🤗
@@DeconstructedWithJosh 🤗
A lot of the art I enjoy is made by horrible people. Sometimes, knowing how messed up the people who made it are even adds a layer of morbid fascination to the enjoyment for me. I am not proud of that, but I have to be honest about it with myself. It also kinda helps that most of them are dead, so I don't have to feel guilty about supporting them.
In the case of Gaiman, however, I, for the first time, feel really bummed out and disappointed. I was really into his work as a teenager. Since then, I’ve moved on, but I found a lot of my now-favorite authors through him.
I remember reading a lot of his interviews and non-fiction writing and having an admiration for him, not only as a writer but also as a person. Even as a kid, I was always very cynical, but somehow I didn't see through his charming and well-spoken public persona. Now I feel like I've been fooled.
Maybe that is why I can't see myself reading anything from him in the near future, even though if all the allegations are true, he is not even near the most vile author whose books I like.
It might be hypocritical of me, but it is what it is...
I totally get what you are saying! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts to this conversation. - MJ
I wasn't exactly a "super fan" but i really liked his work and I found him very inspirational and im so sad... I don't even think its putting someone on a too high pedal to want someone to NOT be an abuser... Its just really sad...
I know what you are going through. It’s very very sad to hear.
"Nobody knows anybody. Not that well." - Tom Reagan, Miller's Crossing.
100%. “Be kind and do no harm.” - MJ 🤗
Well this is news to me. Gotta put a defrentiation between art and the person once you become a fan. Dont mean you gotta keep fan girling though.
Ooof, it's an allegedly shocking rabbit hole to uncover. I agree with you100%!
People are complicated and… fucked up. This is why I always separate the artist from the art. Otherwise, I would never be able to enjoy anything. I can admire talent for its own sake and still denounce bad behavior when proven true.
@@bitteralmonds666 well said
I started to suspect when he left his wife for Amanda Palmer that the old boy was having a bit of a crisis. Sad to hear he was always abusing his power
Yeah, we don’t know all the facts yet. It just stinks learning stuff like this.
I haven't read a lot of Neil Gaiman's work but I enjoyed Anansi Boys and Good Omens, his collaboration with Terry Pratchett, who is on the top of my list of favorite authors. I am also a big fan of the miniseries based on that book. Gaiman and Pratchett were great friends for years, and Gaiman was devastated by Terry's death and promised him that he would produce the adaption, which he made sure was as close to the book as possible.
I'm trying to process the allegations, too. It's difficult for me to remain impartial, considering what men in his position could conceivably do. In 1948, the great author Zora Neale Hurston (another author whom I hold in high esteem) was falsely accused of molesting a young boy. The charges were dropped a year later, but the scandal had a devastating effect on her career, and it nearly drove her to suicide. I ask myself, since I admire her work so much, how I would have responded to the allegations (since that is all they turned out to be), if I had been alive at that time.
Thank you for sharing.
Hi. I am not a Neil “fan” and just hearing of the allegations. The one thing I find interesting is that these allegations are reported to police in New Zealand. I remember during Covid lockdown there was alleged story about how he had left New Zealand and was in a remote part of Scotland. People were not happy with him for not following the rules of not travelling. I like you am a Gen X, and love Keanu. He appears so humble and his kindness appears to be shown day after day in small ways.
I remember that! Thanks so much for sharing! We need to keep Keanu safe! ☺️
For what it's worth, I only hear good things from people who have worked with Keanu Reeves ... and that includes people on the lower levels of film production that he doesn't have to be nice to -- the crews and "little people".
Even more for me personally, I don't get any nagging, gut-level red flags from him, as I always have with Neil (despite not wanting to listen to those alarms, and wanting to admire him).
Thank you for this. I've been struggling, too. It's been several months now and there doesn't seem to be any word from him or his lawyer or representative. And the longer there is silence the easier it is to fall into doubt about what's going on. I hope that he's doing what needs to be done to rectify this and make amends that are fair, if the allegations are true. The other part of all this is that today we have such a stricter line around what is proper behaviour and what isn't. And I'm not saying taking advantage of anyone has ever been right. It has never been or ever will be right. It's murky when we hold today's standards to past behaviours. Watch any show from the 90s or the 80s and the content is SO inappropriate today. And yet back then it was fine because no one made a stink about it. It wasn't right. It was inappropriate back then, too, but now we just pay attention more? I don't know. I hope all this gets resolved for the highest good of everyone. I do love his creativity and respect the good he has done. I've learned a lot from him about the creative process and I'm grateful for that. Putting anyone on a pedestal means they have further to fall.
Thanks for your comment. I can’t believe it’s been so many months and still - nothing.
I don't think it's holding anyone to this unattainably high standard to ask them to please not be a rapist. I can't imagine how low the bar has to be that this even has to be said.
🤗🤗
I love H.P. Lovecraft's writing. And as an Asian man, I know I won't want to meet him. The man has serious mental issues and meeting a non-white person would only cause him nervous breakdown.
And that's fine. He being problematic doesn't effect me enjoying his sick style of writing.
People who worship writers don't understand writing. Just read their works. Read the hit piece or the news attacking them as you read their works. Read their obituary too, just like you read any texts. Enjoy them. Devour them. And if you want to worship them.. well, you should be able to do that too. But that's not "liking their works", isn't it?
Thanks for sharing and adding to the conversation.
And now the Vulture article. So depressing.
Yep, I’ve done videos on the article and his response.
"why put so much trust in people we haven't met"? Well, I for one, have not met any of the alleged victims, so my trust is as free to be on one or the other.
@@rchristy5767 Nice point
Its difficult for me. If you have never read Lovecraft Country, the book addresses this problem. Its about a black character who is a fan of HP Lovecraft's books, who was extremely racist. Two of the characters talk about being fans of the books despite the fact that the author was a horrible person. One of them talks about how you can love books even though they may flawed and its the same with the authors. We can love their writing but also need to recognize the flaws of the person. At the end of the discussion one of the characters looks at his bookshelves and adds, "but sometimes they stab you in the heart."
Yeah, that's how i feel about the situation with Gaiman. But i haven't decided yet if i will buy his books anymore. I'm struggling with it. I also read a good article called "What to do with the art of monstrous men" which was helpful
Thanks so much for sharing!
I think it's not so much expecting extraordinary things but basic human decency. And we do put achievements in our mind together with the people that made them, so it's probably especially disappointing when we loved their creations. I know I was really disappointed in she who shall not be named because I loved her books as a child.
Yes!!!!! I absolutely understand.😥
Normally, I wouldn't reply to a video of this nature. However, there is something different about yours. You are a true admirer of his work. Your pain is so visceral, it is conveyed in the video. I identified with this.. This message is for you. Take heart. The man and the creation are separate entities. His work reflects true depth and genius. His past actions do not change that there is true art and authentic genius in his work.. learn from it, enjoy the richness of his work. You don't have to love the author , to acknowledge that their is true inspiration in his work.. even a mad man, or a villain can build a city...
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. It’s been a month since this video was published and I’m fine. Hearing the news at first and processing my thoughts later on this format helped. Thanks.
I’ve been avoiding videos on this topic for various reasons but yours grabbed my attention. I’m not as big of a fan of his work as some people but I’ve always been a fan of (my perception of) the man. He’s said a lot of things that have meant a lot to me as a fellow (alleged) writer and human being. He always seemed so wise and insightful and always knew the right words. When the allegations broke I was gutted. You’re right, we do put people we don’t know on a pedestal and we shouldn’t, but it’s hard not to admire people who present a façade of being worthy of it. It sucks, it really sucks. I can only hope that the survivors find peace and he’s never able to use his position to take advantage of people again. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This one does hurt.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. It really sucks and it did hurt hearing that news. Hugs. 🤗
This is very difficult. These people are not our friends. They are not perfect. We have this twisted idea of who they are but we don’t know them. I separate the artist from the art or I wouldn’t have much to enjoy in life Lolol.
Even with our friends, you never truly know what happens when the cameras turn off. Remember whatshisname from our community that got arrested?
Be kind and do no harm has always been a good motto for me.
@@M-J nooo I don’t know that piece of Booktube gossip …🦻
@@BookBuds fit2bread - it’s public record 🤮
@@M-J get outta here !!! I watched him. Wow
@@M-J ok I’m all caught up. Anything of that nature is the threshold for me. Done. Goodbye. 🤢😡
Don't hero worship anyone. _Because you don't know them as people_ I admire people's works. I don't have to admire them. That way I can still admire Wagner's music, Picasso's art, Lennon's music, Gandhi's political movement, but I don't have to admire them as people because they were not good people. People will almost always let you down.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.I’ll always hero my deceased dad. Yeah, this one was tough to process.
@@M-J I had a similar reaction to a fav actor of mine He was good looking, talented, adorable, helped people in lower economic conditions, even adopted a homeless child. He had been married for 20 years, had 3 children, and showed all signs of being a devoted family man. What's not to like? Then he had a mid-life crisis. Became a cliche. He had an affair with a co-star _who knew he was married_ Abandoned then divorced his wife when the affair was uncovered, basically taught his 4 daughters that they can devote their lives to loving a man, but he can discard them whenever he feels like it for a younger model. I was disappointed and disgusted.
@@benjalucian1515 Yeah, the sad reality of life just stinks sometimes. Hugs.
Haven't felt this betrayed by a celebrity since Rolf Harris
Googled and ICK.
An adult should never look up to anyone. I don’t look up to Julius Cesar, Victor Hugo or Marie Curie, Tolkien and many others. I am inspired by their stories. But, I know they were only humans and all had their strengths and weaknesses. Fortunately, I learned this at about 20, when I realized that a brilliant expert can be an immature child in other aspects of life, but maybe this has deprived me of the thrills of fandoms and separated me from many fan connections
I still look up to my dead father.
Ha!!! Totally 💯 on Keanu. That would send me into oblivion.
He also might be a great guy who sometimes does really selfish awful destructive things to people, may hate himself for it, may not, who knows. We contain multitudes.
We do.
As a queer individual, I have respected his support of the LGBTQ community and representation in his works, while not perfect, was validating. It’s disappointing to me if these allegations are true. I believe the victims too.
Disappointing is the best word I can use as well. Thanks for adding to the conversation. Nice to meet you (under the circumstances!)
MJ, this got me thinking. Hm. Thanks for sharing even if it’s tough.
Horrible food for thought though. Be well.
The thing that gets me is that he's done so much good work for things like R.A.I.N and other women centered organizations and he speaks out against r@pe and domestic abuse and THIS COMES OUT ABOUT HIM!? How do I reconcile this?
@@artemisvsvenus I see you and hear you. Time will help with processing the information. Hang in there.
Thank you for posting this. I have struggled with this too as a long-time fan, but I think as you say, it brings into question the whole aspect of "admiring" and "being a fan of". I too was young enough once that had I come into his orbit and he had paid attention to me, I would have been bowled over and delighted. I shudder at the thought, now. How vulnerable is any young, trusting fan to someone like him?
It's made me question -what is fandom? And I realised for me at least it's making someone whose qualities we have within ourselves, better than us- externalising our own qualities onto someone we don't know. You said "He's like me," and in ways, he is. I'm sure you are a brilliant writer and storyteller. But so few people's gifts are celebrated we look to those who have been celebrated and "admire them" become a "fan" - and it's saying "this person did better than I did, I need to look up to them, see them as the ideal". What we don't take into account is people can often get famous and successful because they are ruthless, selfish, entitled or plain narcissistic. Once famous they are certainly in a recipe for narcissism with the whole world telling them how great they are all the time. And once there they will work with publicity people who will make their magnanimousness look like charity and caring. IT made me call into question every person I admire, and now see that I am doing so from a skewed perspective of idealism. I think it calls for a getting away from admiration and pulling into appreciation, which is a more equal place to view someone from.
In terms of the "allegations" I don't think we even need to go there. By his own admission, he sexually engaged an employee young enough to be his grand-daughter on her first day of work for him within hours of meeting her. He admits knowing she was vulnerable and mentally unstable. He then paid her money to bribe an NDA after by his admission a 3 week period of "work" for which she was never contracted. I don't need to know any more. Sadly I do know much more, but that's enough.
Yep, this just me thinking out loud for 5 minutes. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
It's such a tough one. We admire art that shows us things we recognize about the human experience, it articulates things we feel but can't articulate. But there's no reason to expect that the gift of being able to do that should belong to a moral or admirable person. People who do terrible things still feel and experience life, and sometimes they just happen to be the best at painting a picture of it. Artists tend to be complicated, damaged people, it's often what gives life and depth and truth to their work. Maybe we just need to start expecting that a person's life probably contains everything their art does, in some way.
Great comment. Thanks for sharing.
Amen to all of that!
Most writers are not celebrities and have no opportunity to prey on their readers. Great success sometimes carries the seeds for failure.
Agreed.
Has he been convicted yet? Just asking. Seems rather high-handed to indict him, try him, find him guilty and punish him before there has even been an arrest. Sir Cliff Richard comes to mind, as well as many others accused and found innocent. (I'm a woman by the way).
@@snowysnowyriver Of course not and that is not and was not the intention of this video. I wanted to start a conversation about how I was feeling - and it looks as if I started a healthy conversation with a ton of opinions and takeaways. Thanks for participating.
I have been surprised about the radio silence about this in general among the bookish community because of who it’s about. Thanks for being vulnerable about this.
It really got under my skin and I wanted to process it with the bookish community. Thank you for being a part of it.
It reminds me alot of Marion Zimmer Bradley... Who I always felt there was something off about her books that was hard for me to put my finger on, though I knew there were specific opinions she wrote that I knew were close minded or just plain untrue...
But then all the stuff came out about her and I was like: I knew it, I knew it. And now her books are kind of an embarassment and I've no motivation to read even the anthologies. Everytime I see her quoted somewhere I feel like adding "and look how that turned out " She has no credibility anymore...
I was never really a reader of Harry Potter. Those books did not exist when I was the right age. But she outed herself. And does not show any sign of revaluating the poison that leaves her fingers these days.
As far as Gaiman is concerned I encountered kind of a nasty streak on his twitter account and found myself growing exhausted with his appearance in pop up ads on social media and not really enjoying reading his stuff nearly as much. So again, even though I didnt say hes definitely a sexual predator, it definitely fits the misgivings I have been having with what I was reading of his.
Thanks so much for sharing your through and adding to the conversation. It’s a tough one for sure.
Hi lovey - been meaning to message for ages and will, but replying here befire i forget!
Very brave to put yourself out their and talk about someone you respected whose work lifted you and inspired you. To see their feet were clay on the pedestal.
I have had a similar experience,
(many have had much worse) with JK Rowling turning out to be transphobic.
I grew up on Harry Potter, the books were sbout inclusion, bravery, loyalty, freedom - but to hear she does not allows those values to be for everyone made be uncomfortable and as she got more hateful and loud about her hatred and heari g readers who found a place they belonged in her books now be told, actually you aren't invited to this party is crule.
My books i still have for what they meant. I hope to re-read, but i have them hidden at the back of the shelf. Any other books we got gifted by her i have charity shopped as I can't bring myself to read them.
Different situation, different circumstances and people feel differently.
Hope you still get past joy and i appreciate the video 🫂💜📚
Thank you so much for sharing, Chattie. 🤗🤗🤗
Thank you for making this video. I made a video months ago about how much I adored his work, a few months before the allegations came out, and it really hurts. I made that video private.
It just hurts when you put someone on a pedestal. But like you said, we need to believe victims. This is the first video I’ve seen on the subject, so thank you for being braver than the rest of us and addressing this head on.
@@Mister_Sosotris Thank you for that lovely comment. I’ve sang his praises in previous videos. All of us can feel the sting of the news. There are videos out there that deal with the specifics of the allegations, but I wanted to steer clear and talk about how we fans process this type of information. Thanks for sharing.
I’m honestly not sure most celebrities much enjoy being celebrities. Especially writers. Many make do with it. It comes with the money, the acclaim, the access to certain amenities. The access to young, attractive, swooning fans. Unfortunately for some - especially Gaiman now - one or more of these trappings can lead to a downfall. Sex is unfortunately too common a weakness, especially in male artists, if not males in general. Mix in entitlement, control, and the hot-and-cold nature of most artists, it’s not surprising this happens. One day he’s fawning, affectionate, and playing his part as a woman’s sexual fantasy. The next day he’s distant, irritated, withdrawn and too busy. Push comes to shove, and then he becomes abusive and controlling. And I’m not giving Mr. Gaiman a pass. He’s brought this on himself. But let’s also see how he handles it. Stephen King was an alcoholic and a raging coke head for much of his heyday in the 80s and 90s. He got through it. He confronted his weaknesses and overcame them. What’s inside Gaiman that makes his writing so beautiful and engaging is still there, but there are darker things too, and he will have to overcome them lest they overcome him - as they now threaten to do. If this is the worst it gets for Gaiman, then perhaps the best is yet to come. But if he does not get help and confront this darker side, it can get much worse.
Thank you for your comment and insight. This remains a very complicated subject to discuss and analyze, but this comment section offers so many different facets. Thanks for adding to the conversation. - MJ
Thank you. This is how (i think) so many of us feel on this. It really does sting. Humans are fallible, but their good that they do put out, that affects others on fundamentally life altering ways, shouldn't be condemed because the person that authored them and is in some ways a hero for that... also has a dark side. I believe the victims. But, i also beieve that there are victims out there with malicious intent. I'm on the same page with you as keeping, and still allowing myself to be entertained by his work... but I won't be attending any potential meet and greets in the future.
Again, thank you sooo much for putting this out. The phrasing and the kindness is a welcome tone and i think, more people ought to take a note from you.
Also, i literally said "Hello!" out loud when you said "Hello GenX" HAHA
♥
Thank you so much! “hello back!” 😂
Skimming through these comments, I notice one thing. Most have already convicted someone who hasn't had a trial. Podcast accusations are legal evidence now? How about waiting for the full story?
@@noelstafford7266 There are a ton of comments. My video sure did bring out a reaction.
@@M-J you're giving a platform to these people to convict him without a trial. You should be ashamed of yourself.
@@noelstafford7266 I am allowing a conversation, in a house that I built, with my own mind, and creativity. Please do unsubscribe.
Thank you, you articulated everything I'm been feeling. I will continue to read his books, and essays and I will still listen to his wonderful voice on audible, but I am so disappointed in him. Unfortunately, he is not the only man that has disappointed me in my life. I guess it's good that I still have the capacity to be disappointed, that I still believe there are honorable people in the world.
Thank you for adding to this conversation. That’s where I have the most struggle - the capacity for disappointment and still believing that there are good people on the planet.
To give my answer to the question "Why do people put other people on pedestals wgen they haven't even met?" it's lack of personal power. In a nutshell. Most don't even realise how often they give it away. And what that action actually looks / feels like. Nor what the empowered state is and how to embody it and reclaim it when a manipulation (marketing) ploy is used on them. Personal power isn't over the top and it doesn't have anything to do with overwhelming others. There isn't education on personal power. And the star industry doesn't want that. It needs people worshipping others so that they become excellent consumers. Otherwise, we wouldn't see a famous man falling down and his work going down with it.
Thanks for sharing!
Totally get it as a fan since I was 15, now 39. I was also attracted to him as a teen, and definitely looked up to him as an aspiring writer. All that said, somehow when the news broke I wasn’t as shocked as I thought I would be. Disappointed surely, but not all that surprised. It’s almost like somehow deep down I knew, and I definitely believe the victims.
One hundred percent. Thank you for adding to the conversation.
If I were a huge fan of Duran Duran, I would never, even call myself a Durany. 😂
@@InglésconRobert2025 I’m glad you aren’t, because you can’t spell it correctly. It’s Duranie. Thank you very much! 😂 Thanks for watching.
@ How about fans of Jimmy Durante?
@Hmmm. Well, there’s extra letters and most of his fans would be deceased. Most Duranies are still kickin’ 😉
@ It’s not even a real word.
I heard the news like a week after I finished reading Neverwhere, and I loved that one so much that I was about to go all in on reading Neil, so this was a bummer. It's hard for me to find writers I like, so I guess I'll keep looking. Suggestions welcome.
I think the truth of humanity is that people who do terrible things or treat people badly can ALSO have positive parts about them. It's entirely possible that Neil means every positive word he's spoken in the past, or every uplifting thing he's written in a book, but also has a moral weakness around this particular part of his life.
True! Thanks for sharing.
Like anyone else, he just needs to be properly punished if he is found guilty. And once he has paid his debt to society, he can rejoin it. A good example is Mike Tyson, who went to jail for rape, but who has returned to the public eye.
I wish Neil would emerge from wherever he’s been hiding.
I so agree with this. I have liked his work from the Sandman days, and when some strange events made it so, I happened upon him reading the American Gods book in Oslo. I was just randomly at a place, and then my favourite comic book author walked in and started reading. I didn't even know he was publishing novels. Later that week, I also greeted him in the street, thinking he was someone else (this was before his fame, so he looked really surprised). He is a part of my coming-of-age story and has been one of my favourite authors for a long time. However, I went off him and stopped following him on Twitter a few years ago. At first, I was curious about his relationship with Amanda and followed them both. Though she seemed attention-seeking, in the end, I found I liked her better than him. She posted a lot but at least seemed open and genuine. He just seemed to be introverted, endlessly self-promoting. I know he has supported good causes, and I can't put my finger on what it was. There's nothing wrong with being an introvert. Perhaps I feel he is curating his own image a little too obviously. The open marriage thing annoyed me as well (there is a good article about that somewhere about why these things annoy us. For me, it was the "I'm too good to just limit myself to one person"-aspect of it). The point is, he had done nothing wrong, I just went off him and stopped following them both. Then the divorce and everything leading up to it happened, and they seemed messier than ever. When this final, horrible thing happened, I was surprised but not shocked. His books are still a part of me and as someone else said here, I feel like part of me is in them, not only the author. But I will not support him financially any more.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Neil Gaiman has always been my favorite author, and even inspired me greatly for the current novel I'm writing. This really is hard to hear...
I see and understand you. Hugs.
I think looking up to creative people I admire is largely an aspirational thing for me. So, yes, it is hard when they disappoint or are revealed to be unforgivably flawed. It is disorienting. What is important to remember, for me, is that my aspirations and my ideals are not tarnished just because the hero I had imagined shared them has fallen. Good talk. Thank you so much, MJ. 🤗
Oh, I needed to hear this today. Thank you for adding to the conversation. 🤗
This discussion always confused me. After learning more about people it no longer surprises me. From people thinking their idols are perfect, or anyone or anything is perfect, to judgment and ignorance or just plain lies... Not surprised anymore. From a Buddhist monk that got a nun pregnant(a nun he attracted to join and leave life?!) to an author on meditation and mindfulness that had a cult like following(not just because it helped many) turning out to be a phony and worse... Or just about every mindfulness teacher have little to no story to why they pursue their goal.. One of the worst even mentioned they chose mindfulness as a career because there was so much money to be made, or one of the originators of mindfulness in the West(and a piece of why it is so poorly understood) who was clear he could not believe that anyone would listen to him, let alone pay him: he proceeded to fake data in studies: putting healing behind for decades. All still followed by many. Or one of the most famous, covered abuse, then called it out only to return once again.
Can we ignore the abuse and hypocrisy? No. But if they are good teachers, as many bad practitioners are, then we can learn. Winning or learning, believe nothing of what you hear, half of what you read but always: trust but verify. If they guide us that is not failure, but we should not build up idols as that is the true danger. The failure seems to lie in our hubris and ignorance. If we stay aware that we all have shadows within, we might not be so blindsided and react so emotionally about experience and often miss the lessons within.
I have been waiting for you to enter the chat!
I was a fan of Justin Timberlake until Britney called him out for cheating on her first in her memoir (I believe Britney obviously) and that's when I decided I would still listen to his music but I would never ever be a fan of his ever again. And I also believe he was intoxicated when he got a DWI just two months ago so Idk why his lawyer is helping him get off of it by saying the police officer was lying because if he was lying why would he give him a field soberity test when he ran a stop sign and was drifting in and out of the lane he was in? So basically what I'm trying to say is that I lost all respect for him as whole and why people are continuing to look up to a cheater and someone who would put others in danger on the roads and is trying to justify his actions when what he did was just wrong on all levels. (Millennial here)
Preach! I got pissed when I read the Britney book. Nobody's eyes look like that after one martini, just sayin'. Hi Millenial, GenX says Hi 😊
70% of the population cheats on a loved one at some point in time. Allow a bit of room for human failings. My 2 cents.
Heck. MLK Jr. cheated on his wife a number of times. But was he a hero to the world? Yes. Yes he was.
@@M-J Her book made me cry the whole time I was reading it, uff.
I am male, so this may or may not disqualify. But I grew up in a society where violence against women was not only encouraged but emphasized. I'm an immigrant to the US. The American society has a high expectation of itself but very little accountability on an individual basis. The abuse of women in our society is widespread and has and will become worse. It's now going to be nearly impossible for a victim (woman) to go to court and win especially after Johnny Depp ruling. No one is perfect and there shouldn't be any expectation. But we need repercussions and punishment to go along with it. We cannot have fame and stardom adjudicate violence against women, especially because it's extremely hard to prove...we need to facilitate expertise in investigations and deliberations otherwise no one should be shocked to know this; abuse is common, in every spectrum of society (women and children).
Thanks for your comment and sharing. All of the comments in this discussion have been illuminating in one way or another. 🙂
This was a really good video. I haven't seen much conversation about this on booktube, and I really appreciate that you brought it up, and were so open and honest about your feelings. Subscribing.
Thanks so much! I really tried to make a video that captured what fans are going through rather than talking about specifics of the news.
Why do people think someone is moral and a good person just because they’re a talented writer?
It is a big question. I think I covered it in the video.
@@M-J I commented before I’d seen your whole video and you did go over it, the older I’ve got the more ridiculous groupies and celeb worship seems.
@@LorcanKoch I agree with you - but I think it turns into something different when power dynamics affect another person negatively, allegedly.
Did anyone else see “Coraline” and wonder who on Earth would show that to children?
No, I read the book.
@@M-J I came across the movie without knowing anything about Gaiman or a book. I read some of his work thereafter.
I mean as a kid I loved coraline, hear a lot of other kids liked it too. Some kids like being scared or enjoying semi serious stories. The fact that the fan base for fnaf was composed mostly of children says a lot (its literally a franchise where the central plot element is child murder)
I feel like saying that I'm worried people are letting this news colour too much of their perception of these stories to see hidden malice and general wrongness where there wasn't before.
@@Xenomorthian That is certainly another perspective to consider.
@@Xenomorthian Thanks for sharing! I grew up on 70´s horror movies and I think I turned out okay.
Exactly! Why put anyone on a pedestal? Put yourself there. 🎉 Only you have the power to be the magnificent you that You Are, change your life and make it the Absolute best life you desire❤
@@belindawarren226 I NEEDED TO HEAR THIS TODAY! Thank you! 🙏🏻
I loved a quote in one of his books: "Evil always contains the seeds of it's own destruction." Hmmm...🤔
Yep, hindsight CAN be very telling.
This sucks. I remember going through these feelings when I learned about horrible allegations about Josh Weldon.
@@Spacegirl3200 Totally! Thanks for sharing.
I read Sandman when the comic book came out. Few people read the comic at the time. Gaiman didn't think it would go beyond six issues before it was cancelled by DC. But the first tradepaperback changed that. It attracted many new readers, especially women and non comic book readers to a medium dominated in the U.S by super hero comics. He helped changed that, along with other comic book creators like Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, and Alan Moore, to name just a few. I was surprised to see him write novels later in his career and to see him enter the literary world (a large portion of which looks down on comics as not equal to novels and films). He was a good ambassador for both worlds. His novels didn't attract me, though, still don't, but Sandman and his comics still do. I still respect him and admire Sandman. The allegations haven't changed my opinion about him or his work. I never place anyone on an unrealistic pedestal forgetting they are human just like me, so when anything unflattering or worse is revealed or alleged as in this case, I'm not disillusioned. The problem for Neil is that many of his fans don't see him as a human being and have unreasonable expectations about him. That's on them. Gaiman and the women were adults in a consensual relationship at the time. Gaiman has been cooperating with the police and they haven't found anything criminal. At this point it is delving into the sexual acts by adults, which are by nature complicated, intimate, and personal. When I was nineteen I was dating women much older than me. Not once did any of my friends tell me it was inappropriate or that maybe I was being taken advantage of. If they they it would've been insulting to me because I was an adult. If I remained or stayed in a relationship it was on me. Whenever I've seen or read interviews by Neil, I never was led to believe his ethics and morality were above question. That's now what he was talking about. He never misled me. But when he spoke about his reading, creativity, and how he sees storytelling, he was, is, effective and convincing. Now, if it comes out one day that all his literary ideas and opinions were not his but that he plagiarized and copied others books and ideas and claimed them as his own, then my opinion about him will change.
I get your point but I have a problem with a 61 year old pouncing on his 22 year old nanny in the hot tub within hours of meeting her. (Those were their ages at the time.) He’s much older and her employer. It’s not illegal but it’s definitely immoral to me.
Thank you both for sharing and engaging in the discussion. There are so many facets to consider. It definitely will be a story that won’t go away anytime soon.
I think you're missing the detail about the twenty year age gap with two young women (one who was employed as a nanny for his kid) and the power dynamic of him being a celebrity.
@@sergeifranson1636 the dynamics of power and control are definitely important point to remember.
@@sergeifranson1636 With the nanny it was a 40 year age gap.