If you or someone you know needs support: RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline: 1-800-656-4673 RAINN Online Chat: online.rainn.org Crisis Text Line: Text HELLO to 741741 (US); 85258 (UK); 686868 (CAN); 50808 (Ireland) DoD Safe Helpline: 877-995-5247 National Domestic Violence Hotline: 877-995-5247 Rape Crisis England and Wales: 0808 500 2222
The best advice? What comedian Josh Johnson said after the allegations about Lizzo's treament of her dancers came out. He said it was important to not mistake talent for character.
Something that people seem to not want to acknowledge is that flawed or even bad people can be talented. Picasso was a terible person but we cant deny his talent or the fact that he was thinking about the war's victims. Another example is Lovecraft whose infuence in literature people have tried to minimise because he was one of the most racists people to have walk on this earth. I believe that doesnt help because then you have people denying that Gaiman would do something bad since he is talented and his ideas are things that we morally agree with. If you dont idolize you wont be disapointed and you will be more objective with news like this.
Absolutely, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I read a memoir from one of Picasso’s “muses” earlier this year, Life with Picasso by Francoise Gilot, and was shocked by just how awful he was, even though I was already aware. You’re absolutely right that minimizing an artist’s influence doesn’t help-we have to come to terms with the fact that horrible people can make great art, and vice versa.
Picasso ended his years imprisoned by his greedy mistress. He was the product of the culture of Catalan which personified macho for reasons dating back to Roman occupation. Originally a soft self indulgent effeminate society which lead to their conquest by the martial, masculine Rome, the males eventually resolved never to show weakness again. So they over threw the matriarch and developed a patriarchy dysfunctional in its extremism! I understand that papers have been written about. How ironic that Picasso ended up under female domination in his latter years. Lovecraft adopted Aryanism and saw himself as a sort of superman by vitue of his Nordic ancestry. He once wrote of himself, " I am of course a descendant chalk pale, blood drinking Viking warriors ..." He named his black cat a derogatory name for a certain race and was anti-Semitic. Even so, like Picasso, he experienced a reversal when he married the love of his life, a Jewish woman!😮
I hate it when people start jumping on the "AH HA I ALWAYS KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING GOING ON WITH THAT GUY!" bandwagon of gloatery when things like this come out...but..... I went though a massive fangirl phase over Neil Gaiman's work, and even the man himself, when I was in college and depressed. Checked his blog every day and stayed up until like 4 in the morning every night reading through the archives, messaged him (but never got a reply), sought out interviews, went to hear him talk when he came to my city, you name it. Gradually, I started to get a weird feeling about him as I noticed that, for as outspoken as he was about causes I agreed with, he didn't really seem to hold himself accountable or admit any kind of wrongdoing or acknowledge that there was ever any kind of "before" stage on that journey of human growth that led to him being as progressive as he purported to be. Like he was born perfect, and his only flaws are, like, whichever cute ones would make him seem more endearing to his adoring fan base. This was most apparent after he got some flack from rape culture blogs for facetiously saying "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch" (in response to somebody asking whether Martin had any responsibility to finish the Game of Thrones series) and his response was to throw a temper tantrum and essentially say "MY CAT JUST DIED you're all monsters for calling me out on anything." (He literally wished a "pox" on anyone trying to hold him accountable for his use of that language.) I remember Henry Selick describing Gaiman as possessing a "cat-like superiority" when the film adaptation of Coraline came out and while I believe it was meant affectionately, I kept thinking about that phrase whenever I read an interview or saw Gaiman speak. He always presented this ultra-curated persona of the bumbling, floppy-haired, well-meaning but oblivious artist who CAN'T POSSIBLY believe his work is admired so ardently, while simultaneously affirming just how correct and wonderful and morally upright his fans must be for liking him. It started to strike me as a bit culty. Anyway, it's almost counter-productive to talk about red flags since the point of this video (which I very much agree with) is that we shouldn't worship ANYBODY, no matter how cool they seem and how much their work speaks to us. But any public figure who leans that far into the parasocial relationship with their fans and who seems to believe that uncritically in their own self-mythologizing (even in spite of evidence to the contrary) is always going to make me squint suspiciously at them.
Yes...I've been a fan for a long time, but stuff like that had started putting me off him as a person. As well as his playing humble, yet also promoting himself for winning this award or that award. I remember when he (deservedly tbh) called Daniel Handler out for making a stupid, racist 'joke' at a book awards thing, a few years back, and yet he was allegedly doing far, far worse things himself. Admire someone's talent indeed, but this whole thing has really made me learn to stop putting said talent on pedestals. They're not gods, just folk like you and me. It's when they start believing their own god status and using that to manipulate worshipping fans, then :(
Not to be a dick but there've always been signs--the way he treated his wife when they were divorcing being one of them (she was a PoS too but that's not an excuse). The way he brushed off all possible criticism as people "just not getting it" and going smugly back to his fandom; that's an echo chamber. Frankly, the way he presented himself as being the "weird uncle you're safe being weird with" needs to become a visible red flag; it's the same as a hundred other nerdy/alt creators who turn out to be creeps--they isolate fans by claiming no one else understands them, they have shared secrets due to being part of the same small communities. It's an easy way for a predator to set themselves up as important, safe, and comforting in a vulnerable person's life.
Typical "there have always been signs" comment. It's called hindsight bias. The point is everyone can be the target of SA allegations, regardless of signs.
@@nachoalfonso2614Yes, anyone can be a victim. Yes, our intuition is not 100% an accurate source. And yes, red flags don’t always signal danger. But does that mean we should stop trusting our instincts? When someone surprises us (or doesn’t) in turning out to be a predator, should we stop ourselves from thinking about their behavior and how that does or doesn’t jibe with our previous ideas about them as a person? Or from going over the red flags we either missed or ignored? I don’t think any single person who’s making this type of comment is saying “the victims should’ve known better.” If they do, fuck em. That’s not okay. But the fact is that Gaiman, like so many powerful men, preyed on vulnerable women. The instance of Scarlett’s allegations makes that abundantly clear. Another fact is that abuse doesn’t happen in a vacuum. When someone in our community reveals themselves to be a predator or abuser, I think we do have to ask ourselves what we can do to make things safer for vulnerable people and what we can do to make it harder for predators to operate among us. This is just caring and being responsible. Neil Gaiman is not part of our community in the sense that is typically meant. But we have all participated in lauding his works or giving his social media presence visibility. In some ways we have participated in making him richer and more powerful and in building his nebbishy “good guy” persona, all of which he has used to attract and intimidate his victims. We are not responsible for what happened to them. But we can be responsible for taking the information that we do know now and building a safer world for everyone.
We stop supporting the creator. If they are dead chose your battles and decide if it's the effort; it's important to still acknowledge that they did wrong and weird things. I'm a fan of H.P. & Poe for what is worth.
I agree that ending financial support is the best way to go, as is continuing to acknowledge the writer’s problems. And as you mentioned, it’s possible to do that and still be a fan of the work itself. Thanks!
I feel lucky that my own problematic fave, David Foster Wallace, was already stone dead before I had ever heard of him, and fell in love with his work, and heard of how he abused at least one partner. When I did come to know of the darker side of him, it provided context to how he had written with such insight into the evil that men do, as it were. I'm not saying he did everything he wrote about, but that he had better insight into why a person might behave that way. It does make some reading decidedly uncomfortable though, for me particularly the short story in Brief Interviews With Hideous Men wherein a woman is abducted by a rapist/serial killer and talks herself out of the situation by just saying the exact right empathetic things. I'm not a huge Gaiman fan, I say with Sandman on my shelf. I have read (or half-read) several books besides. Since hearing this news my minds keeps turning to a short story in Fragile Things, Keepsakes and Treasures: A Love Story, in which the narrator hires two child prostitutes, one of whom apparently enjoys herself, the other of whom is curtly described as 'not good' because she 'cried the whole time' (paraphrasing.) Let's just say that I believe Neil Gaiman has done some meditating on messed up sexual dynamics, particularly with age gaps. I don't think Neil Gaiman is a child rapist any more than I think DFW was a serial killer, just that I can believe the seeds of cruelty were within them when I read the evil portrayed in their work. I haven't read any Alice Munro but there is a similar discussion going on about her work after the news recently broke of her own misdeeds in protecting her pedophile husband. I don't think all artists who portray evil do evil things, but that it's also not a coincidence that Kevin Spacey often played villains and creeps. We can best portray what we ourselves deeply understand, for one reason or another. I wish people engaged with media with a more critical eye.
@@nickpeitchev7763 ok caveat IJ is my favourite book so even if he's a total asshole, the book is still good imho. But it definitely lacks fully developed female characters. His ex-girlfriend, Mary Karr, a famous poet in her own right, was abused by DFW. The things that stick out in my mind are that he once tried to push her out of a moving vehicle, he threw her coffee table at her, and that after she broke up with him he kinda stalked her, culminating in him trying to buy a gun to kill her husband. (After all that he married a women who he was with until his death, and she says he never did anything abusive to her.) But Mary Karr has to live with the first interview question always being about her dead ex who was awful to her, rather than her own work, which says more about society than DFW but is still shitty. He also tried to sleep with as many of his students and female fans of his work as possible, which is exploiting a power dynamic at best and really gross no matter what. He also had a thing for young mothers (like Orin in IJ...) None of that makes the quality of his writing less good, but it provides perspectives on what he chose to write and how he chose to portray things. He obviously had a problem empathizing with/understanding the perspectives of women.
Been struggling with a lot of anger and grief. Several of Gaiman’s novels helped me through difficult times and led me to some of my best friends. I know I’m gonna have to step away from his stuff for awhile. 3:59 wooooooooooooow what the actual f
Amanda Palmer, Whakanewha (Jan. 2024): "Another suicidal mass / Landing on my doorstep, thanks a ton / Oh, darling, how can I repay you for what you have done? / ... / You'll get away with it, it's just the same old script / This world is shaped to have your back / You said, "I'm sorry," then you ran / And went and did it all again"
The fact that male celebrities being genuinely kind and good people that don't SA women are a minority is depressing, everyone has flaws but the bare f*cking minimum of human decency should be treating people with respect 🙏
The thing about celebrity is that the more they hype themselves up, the more likely they are to believe in the shiny sparkly façade they create for themselves. Surely they're above all this "ethics" concept, surely they're a breed above everyone else. If any dodgy behaviour comes to light, they have their great reputation first, and the support of an adoring fanbase who will prop them up.
Separating the art from the author would be much easier if the author in question did not make a big deal about his niceness, kindness, progressive beliefs or approachability. Hypocrisy is not a good look on anyone, especially one who works as hard as Gaiman to dance for his audience. Much as I loved his work as a teenager, I was disillusioned almost as soon as I found his social media. Not that the uncanny feeling I got from him was easy to explain.
I'm a longtime NG fan, and yes, part of me says 'no, he absolutely did not do this'. But as a victim of SA myself, it would be so wrong of me not to believe these women first. It's even harder when a so-called hero of yours has been preaching about believing women, etc. Hero/celebrity worship can often blind us to the worst things imaginable. I only learned about the Alice Munro thing today too (and what she didn't do). Sigh.
Why believe anything? It's literally just allegations, a judge will decide wether he is or isn't a predator. Taking a stance either way at this moment is ignorant.
@@nachoalfonso2614 wow, what a very naïve and ignorant reply. Maybe listen to the actual podcasts and then reframe your reply? Yes, innocent until proven guilty by a court of law...but from what I heard and from NG's own audio, it's pretty damning stuff. Or are you a besotted fan who values your book collection over now at least 5 different women's stories?
@@EmlynBoyle It's the dumbest gatekeeping I've read in a while. I don't need to make videos or have a public prpfile to share an opinion. And certainly you are not going to police what I can or can't say. As a SA victim myself I have processed enough trauma to be able to separate art from the artist. Those stories are amazing regardless of the author's behaviour. And no I am not going to condemn anyone, that's for the justice system not me as a reader. You want to form your own opinion and decide to stop buying his stuff have at it, I won't take a side either way. Don't project your struggles into other people, didn't they teach you that in therapy?
I’m a fan of the man’s work not of the man himself, I never attach myself to artist because from what I’ve observed many artist wether it be actors, musicians ect. Carry a lot of baggage and some can say that’s where they may pull from to create their work? Some of my favorite directors and actors have some sketchy backgrounds. Buy second hand, that way they will not receive revenue. He has a brilliant mind, his work is something special. Another extremely flawed individual. Not that I’m patting the man on the hand he deserves the criticism and negative attention but I myself can’t deny the impact his work has in my life.
I am/was a fan, and this is definitely a tough one to process. I think you’re right that we can accept the good and the bad at the same time, but I have to step away from him for a while myself.
That’s completely understandable! In retrospect, I should have added that coming to some conclusion about whether to keep enjoying his work is probably going to take time for a lot of fans-you certainly don’t have to figure it out now.
People are people. Doesn't matter what status they hold or what industry they belong to. People are flawed and screw up, at best, or deliberately commit sinister acts, at worst. If anything, this incident once again opens up an important conversation about consent and respect for boundaries. As a guy, I'll admit I've had to learn some hard lessons about respecting other's boundaries and also respecting myself enough to stand up for my own. I've admired Gaiman for years and these accusations have been hard to digest. Heard the podcast last night and it's a messy situation. The effect his books and views on art have had on my creative development will never be eroded, but my naive impression of him as an enlightened saint of progressivism is gone. Perhaps it's best this way. People, after all, are people.
It's kinda funny that you mentioned the "At least we still have..." thing. I used to be a big fan of both J.K. Rowling and Joss Whedon. When I found out what they were really like, my reaction was "At least I still have Neil Gaiman..."
Oh yes let’s compare men who sexually assault women to a female author who stuck up for women and our rights to not have men in our restrooms which are extremely vulnerable places. You’re a joke
@@ladybookworms "speaking out about women's rights" lol. Allowing trans people to be who they are doesn't infringe on women's rights. And yes, transphobia is definitely a thing.
@@KarlKristofferJohnsson This is my final comment here and to you. I know you won't agree, or listen or even rationally think about what I said here, and that's fine. We don't have to agree. So there is no need to respond to me nothing you say will provoke me to respond to you calling my transphobic, cuz that is not a thing. It's beyond phobia now.
@@ladybookworms transphobia is as real as homophobia. If you look at the arguments transphobes and terfs have, they're EXACTLY the same people used to rally fear and hate against the gays before. The bigots just needed a new scapegoat group to funnel their hate of the other into as hating the gays is going out of vogue. Same bs, new target.
I strongly disagree that “Neil Gaiman doesn’t understand boundaries, power dynamics or professionalism”. He ABSOLUTELY does - the fact is he gets a great thrill from transgressing these standards. This is who he is and now anyone who hadn’t noticed this about him will have to accept that parasocial relationships and projections of your own moral standards does not mean that your favourite celebrity is known to you and is the same as you, despite the temptation of fandom to market and sell back “your tribe” to you. I’m honestly more surprised how many people/women don’t pick up on the signs of male sexual entitlement, poor boundaries and narcissism that Neil Gaiman has and which is layered into his writing and appearances, mostly because they like the adaptions of his work and desperately desire him to be a pinnacle of “good guy” male standard. He has always been, and shall always remain, a man.
He also comes from a family of wealthy Scientologists, and was raised in it. He claims not to be one but he also consistently makes donations to the church.As a culture we have to keep an eye on people who may have hidden agendas,who infiltrate into positions of power.While claiming to be something else.
He’s a just man, Christopher. For most women that’s enough of a reason to suspect an alternative “agenda”. Many more men than decent men realise are sexual creepers towards women. It’s hard to believe without being on the receiving end of aggressive male sexuality - it’s across all demographics of males.
Great. So now all men are demons. Gaiman sucks and deserves to be punished if the allegations against him prove true, but hearing people cast stones against your gender being fundamentally evil somehow makes me mad.
I really appreciated this video! I would not necessarily consider myself a fan of Neil Gaiman himself, but rather a fan of Good Omens, as that is the only work of his I have read/watched. That being said, Good Omens has been one of, if not the, most important piece of literature/media in my life. I find myself always eventually returning to it in some way. What has helped me come to terms with this newly revealed information about one of its creators, is reminding myself that this story in particular has been a joint work since the beginning, so the credit of it is not all owed to one man. Also, I am allowing myself to still enjoy this media because, like you mentioned, I could not have known, and Good Omens is still very important to me in many ways, including it being a huge source of inspiration for me. I too made the connection between this situation and my enjoyment of classic literature authors. I myself am a huge fan of Mary Shelley, specifically Frankenstein, but I recognize the failings of Shelley rather than put her upon a pedestal, and claim she can do no wrong. As you perfectly articulated, idolizing people, especially public figures, should be avoided. Thank you for sharing this video! I just discovered your channel through this video, and I am definitely subscribing and watching your other content!
I know it's way too early to make any grand assessments about him, plus, I would hate to drag an innocent person's name through the mud, but I've always felt that Gaiman was a little too accessible to his fans, especially on his social media account via Tumblr. If you go over there any given day, he'll reblog and answer a million questions. The accessibility is bizarre. It just seems like a normal, down-to-earth author would not be as available to fans. You know? Also, I feel like authors are a little more reined in about their fan interactions than a celeb or a singer.
Gaiman's commencement speech was an inspiration for me, I used to listen to it in a loop to get fuel to finish my projects. I stoped following and admiring him after the netflix adaptation of Sandman and his attacks on fans who were dissapointed on the appereance changes of Death and other characters. Claiming everyone was either racist or sexist was blinded and hypocritical attacks. At the end of the day he designed those characters with the original appereance. Was he a racist and sexist then but saw the "light" and for netflix he had redemption and stopped being racist and sexist? He got on a high moral horse and tried to look down on people. I tried to give that adaptation a chance but found it empty and melodramatic, like a Fantasy soap opera lacking the magic of the comics. The only actors who had talent or capture the essence of their characters were Tom Sturridge, Boyd Holbrook and Donna Preston. My only conclusion was he was trying to get on the good graces with producers or actresses he was romantically/se***ly interested in conquering. I was not surprise when these accusations of abuse appeared. There is nothing illegal in what he did (both women were consenting adults) but they do show the essence of manipulation to get what he wants with no regard of people's feelings. And also cruel and violent fetiches that contrast with his hypocrytical comments against fans and men in general. The episode of Calliope was a whole statement against abusers, written to signal all men as abusers... all men except, of course, Gaiman who wrote it. He is a hypocrite. He thought fans were slaves of him when in reality most people either like or dislike his books or creations depending on the content and what emotions they evoke, not because they idioleze Gaiman. People don't blindly follow artists (or they shouldn't, just like you recomend in your video). We follow art and what it makes us feel. Art and artist must always be separated, otherwise you end up in a cult, defending people who are just that, humans, and not gods
Ok, Neil Gaiman may have been a monster in SAing those two women, but wtf are you talking about? The Netflix adaptation wasn't perfect but it was the best we have gotten. He's correct in claiming that most people upset with the casting was sexists and racists. Even if I grant your nonsense some credence, you're right. "At the end of the day he designed those characters with the original appereance." And, at the end of the day, he can do whatever the fuck he wants with his characters. He can change it if he thinks it is better. And I would argue it was.
@@ArvindRajAgnosticAtheist The creator can do whatever he wants with his stories and characters but the fans can also do whatever they want too with their opinions, views and money. Like I said, fans are no slaves to any franchise or author. Fans follow stories, emotions, love and respect, not idiologies or insults disguise as "high moral". When you fall in love with a story and characters you want to see them faithfully represented. It's like getting home one day and finding your parents and siblings race-washed. You would yell "they are not my real family!" So calling people "racist" por washing is just manipulation through trying to make them feel bad with themselves and inferior when they are not doing anything wrong in reality. That's what abusers do: try to make you feel bad so they can control you. There are so many stories they could have adapted, like Imaro or Raybearer or sooooooo many others, but instead chose to create controversy by race and gender swaping just to cater to the ideological current of hollywood and some cities of the US. I am latina and dont go around "crying" to have representation. Where is my Ecuadorian in the eternals or in any episode of the sandman adaptation? There is none. There is also none in the comics and I dont care, I loved the stories and characters. The adaptation is mediocre and full of ideiological discourse that doesn't even try to be subtle. The only reason why they didn't change the Corinthian's appereance is because he was male and blond which nowadays equals to evil. And again, neither Gaiman nor Netflix made the changes for any artistic reason, Gaiman made them to try to cater to the ideological mob that were in charge of film companies and who were trying to control people by calling them racists, sexists and whatever "ists" they felt like to. I also think Gaiman did this to try and cover his abuses by "showing" he was "woke". He is a manipulator. Fans are not racists or sexists for complaining for radical changes in source materials. Go wtite new stories with original characters instead of gender or race-appropriating them. The movie of the last air bender was a flop because or the race swape, we wanted characters who looked like Katara and Soka, those poor white actors looked nothing like the original characters ergo they were rejected. It's no racism to love the original source and appereances.
You feeling entitled to an adaptation being slavishly devoted to its source material is not really evidence that the author is a bad person. It's just evidence that you're entitled.
What are you talking about? What's wrong with Death being black, etc? So that's what put you off NG and not this? Wow, doesn't someone feel entitled...oh and look, you're a Rings of Power hater too, what a surprise.
Neil's last name is pronounced 'gay-man' - you can look it up. I think this one has hit the algorithm cause I'm far from your usual audience, so maybe brace for that.
@@hadnoideahowOh, so he's a PoS now? I thought he was just accused... Amanda Palmer is not exactly the shining beacon of morality either but go off girl. I have been gigantic fans of both of them. Both their works found me in a time that I desperately need their art. I wish only healing and love to the accusers in this situation.
I've never put authors on a pedestal, and I've never been much of a Gaiman fan apart from enjoying some of the TV series, but the news is still shocking 😞 Thank you for the thoughtful video!
For people struggling with this I recommend T S Eliot. In his essay on Aristocracy he introduces his theory of the "Objective Correlative" which attempts to resolve the cognitive dissonance produced by artists whose lives seemingly contradict the truths their works represent so beautifully.
Few artists would benefit from that theory more than T.S. Eliot. But anyway. I believe that artists can reach for truth in their work that they do not achieve in their lives.
I'll always consider him one of the best writers of fiction of all time. It's not up to me to judge him, there's a due process for that. The judge will decide wether the allegations have merit or not.
A huge part of the problem here absolutely is the notariety and power he had that allowed him to take advantage of people. The women who have come forward have all said that they felt special because he’s so famous and then later, unable to speak out for the same reason. The general consensus among fans has been to stop giving him money, and I do think that’s the right course but I think I will continue privately loving the stories of his that I love the most.
Unfortunately, I have come to the realization and sad acceptance that, given a long enough time line, any man I/you/we hold in positive esteem will end up being a disappointment in some of the worst possible ways. Obviously nOt OnLy MeN, but it's almost always men.
You should read Catherynne Valenti (sp) Neil Gaiman ( Gay -man) during his 8 year marriage with Amanda Palmer went through 14 nannies during that time period. He was sexually inappropriate and probably a CREEP. But behind that seemingly calm, kind and charming Fantasy Rock Star public persona, The Dream King is a sexual sadist. I will always enjoy the universe he created, but I can separate the artist from the art.
Just so you know, I almost didn't listen to your arguments due to the hyperbole at the beginning. It's an extreme take. I'm pleased to see you're much more reasonable and thoughtful with your thoughts. On another note, if these allegations are true then Amanda Palmer is complicit. The nanny was hired by Palmer and, allegedly, when she informed Palmer of what had happened her response was that 14 other women had come to her saying something similar. Palmer has not responded to anything yet, and she may have some interesting answers for her alleged actions, but if this is true, it's not looking great for her either as she did nothing and actively seemed to be protecting Gaiman.
I think Amanda Palmer is the worst, but I wouldn’t consider her complicit in these crimes unless she did something deliberately to silence these women. Am I saying I don’t think the accusations are true…I believe they are and I believe Gaiman used the free-love excuse for his behavior because why else go for the nanny? Why was he going for everybody in the exact orbit of his life with Palmer if not to rankle and abuse her as well. So ya know if she snapped at the lady because she was annoyed with his bullshit I can’t blame her, because boundaries were clearly blurry in his favor because they had an open relationship, and that means something different to a lot of people . I think it’s very unfortunate, but I am nearly certain that in both of these cases it will all likely be dropped because of the ambiguity of the scenarios and both women ultimately getting written off ass clout chasers who deliberately placed themselves in said scenario only to renege later on an unspoken agreement of an open relationship. It sucks, but it’s disheartening in its predictability. However, I believe them.
@@FreyaEinde I'm not convinced of anything at this point. Many scenarios are possible. All I am saying is that if this woman's story is true, then Palmer deliberately did nothing to help these women, even after it happened to 15. Maybe she felt powerless, maybe she was in on it, I don't know. I'm just looking at the accusation provided.
That’s fair! The opening was my attempt to make an “attention-grabbing hook” like the UA-cam gurus always suggest, haha 😅 I absolutely agree about Amanda Palmer. I actually haven’t followed her closely over the past few years, and unfortunately at this point I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if she was complicit-disappointed though, given that I thought she was a fierce supporter of survivors. You’re right, no one is looking good in this situation.
@@ThoughtCouture My reaction was the same. Assuming that all successful men are sexual monsters is an abhorrent perspective to take, and to be honest, your defense-that it was just an attempt to click-bait-makes it even worse. But it worked for you; the video has a lot of views, so congrats, I guess. EDIT: I was pleased that around the 9min mark you made a much better point: that we shouldn't assume that a person who makes great art is necessarily a good person.
@@jwinstons3352Yeah it's not a good look to start off a video about a serious thing where the only source is a conservative, radfem, and transphobic outlet (one of them is a terf who hates Gaiman for arguing with Rowling). With arguments in the podcast (which also literally used his face for clickbait, made people sign up to view the story, and are generally very unethical about the whole thing) such as "well obviously it assault, all bdsm is evil", starting the video off with gender essentialism obviously puts people off.
For some reason, in the past few months, I've really just become awash in nuance and accepting that everyone I interact with or see is imperfect, and I don't fully know them. I've "known" that for years, but I'm also really starting to _understand_ it. One of my favorite character types right now is a character who knows they're hypocritical on some level, has given up on seeing themselves as a "good person," and just does their best because what else _is_ there to do? I like endings that aren't "happily ever after" but more "happily enough ever after, but still messy." It's always going to be messy and complicated, and full of cognitive dissonance. And I'm learning to sit with and sometimes enjoy cognitive dissonance, without leaning on any thought-terminating cliches. Because what can anybody do except make personal decisions about who and what they're comfortable supporting, and their best to help and support those who need it?
Been struggling with a lot of anger and grief. Several of Gaiman’s novels helped me through difficult times and led me to some of my best friends. I know I’m gonna have to step away from his stuff for awhile. 3:59 wooooooooooooow what the actual f 6:38 on divorcing fandoms and things from ourselves- I did this with HP when JKR went full publically anti trans. I know for me one of the hard things is wanting to see real accountability. It hurts to find so many people I have looked up to or who have influenced my life have hurt other people, on any scale.
Learn the man's name! His last name is pronounced like "gay men"! I am team accountability and fuck the age difference - if women have that kind of relationships, it's all "woooh, you go girl!", so let adults do, what they want. The consent issue though does weigh very heavy on my heart...if that is true, he should face consequences, that is unacceptable in any relationship!
If you can love Wagner's music, Picasso's art and Thomas Jefferson's contributions to the founding of the USA, you have to ignore most of their unsavory personal lives. Gaiman - _if found guilty of the accusations_ - will be no different. Not sure about New Zealand/UK, but in the US, a person is innocent unless found guilty.
Any kind of People at the end of the day are still human. As humans, we have the capacity to be flawed, good, horrible, kind and horrifying. Hold ppl accountable for their actions, but never hold them up on a pedestal.
Thank you for being kind, I've been trying to find some better videos talking about this and I'm kind of disgusted with how many people just immediately start jumping onto "I never liked his work and if you liked it you were weird" and acting Superior just because they think they knew better because of a matter of taste. Also the amount of terfs using it as opportunity to just say it's our fault for liking his work because he's a man and we should have expected it. As if women can't ever be abusers or problematic in any way
There is one rule and that is power corrupts. Who they were when they started is not the same person as who they are after they achieve incredible levels of success.
I'm okay with authors and artists being assholes... since we are anyways okay with politicians and businessmen being assholes. Many of my fav authors have been accused of racism and sexism and what a not... the problem is when death of the author is not a thing. I don't like a lot of what Neil Gaiman has recently done but I also like a lot of his work and once it's out it is not fully really his books. Same for actors and whatever... they're just people, they can be good or bad I don't care. You can't really say "this person would NEVER do such and such a thing", that's a really weird thing to say. Being good at a thing doesn't mean you're automatically a good person. That said nothing much is going to change for me about reading the books he wrote because for me it is about the books and the stories and not about the author. Those books are MINE too now. Forget about we don't know celebs, we sometimes don't even know the people closest to us and anyone can do horrible things. I have never religiously followed Gaiman or any artist I follow the art. And I think THE AUDIENCE and the people who put artists and celebs on a pedestal and treat them differently are a big PART OF THE PROBLEM if not most of it. I don't think we can lay the blame squarely on the person and not subscribe some of the blame to the society at the time and the amount of unholy attention and conditioning these people go through, not to mention some ego and arrogance if they are hyped up or see themselves as superior. Take the art leave the artist. Follow your heart on how to deal with this though.
you're ok with people being assholes? That doesn't sound healthy, to me, but I'm not a dr or a psychologist. I think a person making a mistake or doing something wrong is human, but intentionally not learning from your mistakes and doing the wrong thing over and over again, that's not good. I think it's ok to admire talent in people. Death of the author is from the 60s- I think we as a society have grown since then and can regocnize the flaws in death of the author. (One example, the financial aspect that really wasn't addressed in death of the author). Think about other social things we have grown past since the 60s- gay marraige is pretty much common place in most developed countries, disability rights are a thing now, women can get divorced. To think that the Death of the Author is the end all be all of literary criticsim is a pretty antiquated idea. edit: aw jeeze- just saw your other comment. Your apathy toward humanity really should be check out. Is it "big brain logic" or is it crippling depressing? Respecfully, please get help. I don't think you're a jerk- I think you're probably a really good person. Right now, you sound like a jerk, but I don't think that's really who you are as a person. I genuinely don't mean to sound condisending. I just feel that I really realate to you and that I've been in your situation before. Please get some help with your mental health so that you can feel better about the world around you
@@KindredKayeyeah, I think that people are wayyy too accepting of supporting literal horrible people, including the original commenter, assaulting and abusing someone doesn’t make someone “human” or “flawed” they’re horrible people and don’t deserve decency
Has he already been proven guilty? After the Amber Heard situation I started to wait until all the evidence is out and a trial has been televised before I condemn someone. But then, I stopped expecting celebrities I like to be good people after Marion Zimmer Bradley and Bill Cosby.
As is mentioned in this video, even if you set aside the SA allegations, the things he's admitted to are still concerning and may turn people off of his work. A 60 year old married man and international celebrity having a sexual or romantic relationship with an early 20's individual who works for him is a hell pf a power imbalance.
@@foxesofautumn I think the Depp-Heard situation is more nuanced than most people like to believe. I'm always wary of being roasted when I point out the big power imbalance between the two and its implications, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.
All celebrities are just people, some guy or some gal that has a talent in one (or sometimes more) fields and it has made them known to a large group of other people. And yes, bad or imperfect people can and often are, very talented. With art I often distance myself from authors beforehand. Because I feel that once the art is made public, the artist no longer has any say in it. And when I see a painting that resonates with me, it's me, that painting and my interpretation of it. Of course, there is the question of support, financial and a perceived one for the author/artist (if you buy their books, paintings, music... you are in their eyes and the eyes of most people supporting them as a person). And when the celebrity is very vocal and/or the wrong was a big one (according to me), I do stop giving financial "support". Even though it is often people, who already have more than enough to never need to earn another cent to live comfortably (or even luxuriously) to the end of their life.
I appreciate your perspective on this. Coraline really meant a lot to me, but it just feels disgusting to me now because he did disgusting things and he's not at all who he said he is. There's such a discrepancy between his public image and the ways he took advantage of his position of power to hurt people. I guess I've learned not to put authors on a pedestal.
I rarely put authors or any celebrity on a pedestal. Except a very few who’s live and for I follow for years like Cornelia funke. Because I’ve always had a problem with idolizing someone I don’t know it just never made sense for me. And often times when I hear of a new author especially more well known ones I google them before my adhd gets to into it 😂 because then I know, especially if their well established or not here anymore what stances they had and if I want to read them.
This news makes me sad. I am a fan of Good Omens. I find the main characters and their relationship really special. I hope it doesn’t get cancelled because of this.
This is the first I've heard of it. I am glad it was your video, as you presented it so comprehensively and thoughtfully. You seem so very well spoken and delightfully articulate. You gained a new subscriber, as a result. I never looked too deeply into his personal life but was always curious what broke up his marriage. I first struggled with this when I learned the writer of one of my favorite books turned out to be homophobic. I have a number of gay friends, so I struggle with it. I sometimes get through by reminding myself, we are all more than just one thing. I truly look forward to further videos from you. Be well!🙋🏼♂️
The big takeaway is don't worship people. Enjoy their art, but people are flawed. Some more flawed than others. The illusion that we have free will or choice about doing good or bad has been shown to be overly optimistic, bordering on delusional. I refer people to Professor Sapolsky's Lecture Collection | Human Behavioral Biology Stanford | available here on UA-cam.
yeah, that horrible woman ruined my favorite childhood series. i mean, went to harry potter world for my 21st bday. can't see anything related to it now without feeling sick. hope she rots.
Love Amanda and Dresden, I’ve only seen Amanda though. No Brian. Love her Asking book. What I’m really uncomfortable with is when I hear about a celebrity doing something abysmal I’m never surprised. Art needs to be separated from the artist. People forget that celebrities are also people.
I'm don't particularly put celebrities, authors or otherwise, up on a pedestal. The problem for me isn't that I feel bad that he's a flawed person, it's that it makes it hard for me to enjoy his work. There are different levels of this. I started reading H.P. Lovecraft long after his death and so his views don't bother me that much because i don't feel like I'm supporting those views or giving money to him when I read his books. Meanwhile I don't even enjoy watching other people talk about J.K. Rowling anymore let alone enjoy her work. I haven't entirely decided what to do with Gaiman. Part of that will depend on if this feels like a ongoing issue or not, but some of it will just be whether i can enjoy the book.
I am/was a Neil Gaiman fan. I am shocked. I understand writers may be flawed but Virginia Woolf was who she was in a specific time period. We know what we know about her flaws because she did not misrepresent herself. To do what Gaiman has been alleged to do requires willfull manipulation and misrepresentation. He stood for a certain moral stance but apparently did not feel a need to live by it. My current feeling is that I want to burn all the books of his I own and never talk about him as a writer again.
I loved some of his stuff, but I quit him, as he had a habit sprinkling perverse violence and deeply weird sex scenes throughout his work. If you love his work, buy it used so you don't give him money. You can also buy it new and give money to someone who is now being accused of coercing a divorced woman with kids to give him regular oral sex, so he didn't shut down the house she cared for and leave her homeless.
I'm paraphrasing here but Neal Stephenson warned about the perils of fandom and parasocial relationships, i.e., never meet your heroes. He said that if you like my books, that's great, but don't presume to know who I am as a person based on the stories that I tell. The book you hold in your hand is the end result of a VERY long, tedious, painstaking process of writing, editing, rewriting, revising, agonizing, and so on and so on. It very likely DOES NOT reflect my personality or politics. The protagonist of my stories most likely do not represent who I am as a person.
I get it now. Gaiman didn’t create the character of Mister Wednesday in American Gods who had consensual but sleazy affairs with young women as a way of seeing the character as a supernatural creep. Mister Wednesday is a self insert character 😮😅😢
Humans are flawed and someone can be both moral and immoral, and do both good and harm in the world. We should not ignore their wrongs or negate their good.
@thoughtcouture Of course! As a youtuber myself, I get how much effort goes into creating such content. I've been wanting to make a video essay/commentary, too, so that part was really relatable😁
I am not making any particular judgements until the case has been tried in a court of law and I respectfully refuse to add to the court of public opinion until it has been.
For everyone who's saying that unfortunately it's very hard to prove these cases especially historical ones. Let's see what comes out about the woman with the massive nda. Isn't that a red flag for you that he got her to sign that?
@@doublelightangel we are not the jury. we can believe someone is guilty personally but we still don't for sure what's going on, support the victim, not believe the victim. people say they believe but do nothing or just want a pat on the back.
The further back in time you go for your reading, the less you can accept everything about an author you admire. Classism and misogyny are a given. Racism and religious prejudice, yeah. Teasing out what is worthy and what is unworthy has to be an ongoing project. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?
Im a fan of his work.. as for him im not an uber fan. I have met a few celebrities.. i hung out with Patrick Swayze and his wife lisa at horse shows for example. They are human not perfect and ill reserve judgement. Regardless these ladies were adults and even in their statements the word consentual is repeated.. he may not be a morally upright person idk and i was a victim of SA.. it was NOT CONSENSUAL!!
I used to be a fan of Amanda Palmer until she was unapologetic and doubled down about saying the ‘n word’. I also met Neil at the signing after an Amanda Palmer concert back in the 2010’s (I think 2010 but fuzzy memory) and had known the name but not really much more than that. I think that was the same year or maybe the year after he did a reading at MoFo (a Tasmanian festival) and it was very entertaining, a well written story. That memory is tainted now.
Gaiman has been a very frustrating one for me. I've been gradually engaging with his works over the years but i have no problem with dropping them over this. Youre right, we just dont know when the people we admire might disappoint us. As long as they're alive to benefit from the work, I won't be supporting. This goes for J.K. Rowling too
People can do terrible things and make beautiful art. People can do terrible things and lovely things and you do not have to be the secret arbiter of whether or not they are ultimately a good or bad person or deserved to be forgiven or not. You are not a bad person for liking their art but it is bad to support them. Don’t buy more of their stuff if it’s not used.
If you're feeling all smooshie-feely because Neil Gaiman is reading a children's bedtime story to you after a democratic election, that is the best sign you will ever receive that you are idolising an author above his work and will soon be disappointed. Gaiman obviously cultivated the crowd that would fall for him in that way - but you can't blame the conman for conning you! Let's all of us continue to celebrate the concept of "death of the author" so we can enjoy literature for years to come, despite anything the nasty little people that write that literature may do.
I like some of his work but wouldn't call myself a fan. At the same time these are allegations that were brought up again by same people in a blog post that literally reads like an ad. The podcast itself is produced like a full cast production with sound effects, music all that jazz. Me saying that makes it less believable is the same illogical jump in thinking as saying just believe them by default. It's all hearsay. Until he makes a statement I remain neutral and consider this issue an accusation. Considering how vocal he has been about trans rights, LGBTQ rights and racism he has made a huge amount of enemies - including Rowling. The journalist who covered this story in the podcast is a known anti-trans movement supporter (and for some reason proud of it), so there's also that. Just my opinion and yes I know I'll be attacked by both extreme right wing people who want to see him fall and the cancellation mobs who see all men as monsters. There is no winning either way. I do hope he finds a way to clear his name, assuming he is innocent. Edit: As for the title, the issue has absolutely nothing to do with author worship nor fandom in the first place and it's a really weird statement. Like someone being a fan of author's work is suddenly a bad thing. No, sorry. I will continue to support his work until he either admits to what happened fully, or it is otherwise proven. Knowing how blunt and logical Gaiman is, it would not surprise me one bit if he did if he was guilty. He has never shyed away from admitting fault. His world view is extremely nihilistic.
He was the writer who spoke to my soul as a teen. I had a horrible family life and his writing made me feel understood. I started with Sandman and Neverwhere and never looked back. He spoke to the loneliness, the abandonment, the abuse and desperation I suffered. I should have learned after JK Rowling to not place them on a pedestal. I’m learning, it’s sad, I have all his works in my library. How do you separate the writer from their works? Can you? Should you? I’m so angry at him for being just like all the rest of them. It’s such a betrayal, he’s been my favorite author since I was 16, literally 20 years.
I'm with you that we shouldn't worship celebrities but starting the video with"...assume every powerful man has done something bad..." sounds kinda sexist to me.
@@marigolden_mariposa Well, coerced is coerced ... and that counts, but most of the victims are even more embarrassed than their female counterparts ... so, stats probably do not reflect the reality.
i see it as more emphasis on “powerful” that “man.” being a “powerful” man in this current capitalist patriarchal society means dominating and stepping on other ppl (of course there r exceptions lol) but w how things are rn u have to step on ppl to get “to the top.” u could say that our whole modern cultural concept of power is associated w dominating others. u get to a certain point and start thinking u can act however u please. women act the same way but less women can get to that level of being powerful enough to do whatever. i think that if our concept of power and power dynamics were different she wouldn’t have even needed to make that point
Never thought I'd have to lump Lovecraft and Gaiman in the same category, staring at a shelf stuffed with their respective works...and contemplating a future of turning away from anticipated media from the latter.
Evolutionary Psychology has an explanation for his behavior. The male of our species is capable of passing on genes to more offspring than a female. So the genetic code encourages males to be promiscuous as that will ensure more such genes propagate. The most successful male in a tribe often has many wives. It only requires a high degree of success to ensure that a man will take up with as many women as his position allows. And Neil Gaiman preferred young women because they are more likely to be fertile. It is really our genes that determine our behavior for their benefit. Even female morality is based on a distaste for males who are not committed to a single partner and the few young that a woman can have.
Your opening statement sets the tone. You have clearly already decided he is guilty and appointed yourself Judge,Jury, and Executioner. Even despite your weak, obligitary, "these are only allegations" The simple fact that you deliberately and wantonly mispronounce his name shows the contempt you have. Check yourself, or perhaps all men should just assume that all women are nasty, judgemental hate mongers, and we can be pleasantly surprised when one isn't.
Not really a fan of Neil Gaiman, he's a great writer, but I'm not a fan of his omniscient 3rd person style of storytelling. Anyway, I've always preached about "death of the author" and not following or disfellowshipping any artist based solely on their public persona of being morally good. The more you look into art history, the more you'll discover that the greatest artists (from Plato to Picasso) are usually the most flawed human beings. It's usually that reconciliation of them coming to terms with their flaws that creates such fantastic art. So if you're waiting to find a saint before you can appreciate their art, then don't hold your breath. All that being said, I love how quickly people are willing to throw Neil under the bus on account of hearsay without even waiting for the full evidence to be shown. For all we know this could be another Amber Heard situation. Why don't we wait and see the full evidence before sullying the guys reputation? Or is that too much to ask in this social media, clout chasing day and age?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I completely agree, especially with your point about expecting moral purity from artists/writers/anyone-if we do that, we’re all going to end up very lonely. Also, your comment made me realize perhaps I wasn’t quite clear or fair enough in the video-you’re right, we’re dealing only with accusations without evidence, and it’s fair to withhold judgment until more information comes out.
Ok - so do you love the art or the artist ? Does the art echo the artists actions , we are constantly saying this and that is a spectrum - maybe art and artist is .John Lennon was a horrific narcissist, terrible father , womanizer and generally pessimistic miserable realist . Yet his art came across a humanistic peace loving hippie, he was even told a fan his lyrics are just words put together.
@@hadnoideahow I see. Are we not allowed to say "sexual assault" anymore? Is that an acronym forced upon us by UA-cam's rules or is it some new socially unacceptable thing? I hadn't come across it before.
@@Mallarkeyhonestly it's a toss up. It started as people trying to get around censorship but now it feels like people are willingly and unnecessarily censoring themselves.
@@MallarkeyI’ve heard a lot of creators say that if a video gets demonetized, it’s dead in the water. The algorithm will stop promoting it, which makes it effectively invisible unless you’re specifically looking at a creator’s catalog and happen to notice it. UA-cam takes no accountability for the weird things they do to make advertisers more comfortable and makes the stakes so high for content creators that it’s just not worth it to tempt fate.
You know what, why dont you all just shut your mouths up first before you accuse or assume someone of some crime. The truth is you dont have a clue if he's innocent or guilty, and then when reports say he's innocent you all would be like aww he doesnt deserve this, what aweful women to accuse him of s.a. Wake up, they're post producing 2nd season of The Sandman and cash is flowing, there's actually more reason to be suspicious of the two women if all is taken into account so lets just stop judging Neil too soon once and for all please.
"The Johnny Depp stuff" being where he has a history of violence against women and a violent when drunk and angry problem? How is the very real danger women face not something to care about?
Ah, so you think the women are lying even though SA is an underreported crime and reporting it has a negative effect on victims almost every time. Cool. Good to know.
Why are you surprised? It‘s called Original Sin. Yes, I know that sounds archaic and reactionary, but perhaps our ancestors saw certain things far more clearly and realistically than we do today. For a more recent citation, George Orwell, in his essay on Mahatma Gandhi, wrote: „Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent.“ Words to live by…
I agree with the Orwell quote. Original Sin is not a helpful idea, though. It’s not a “born with it” kind of situation. It’s a series of choices that lead to bad places but those choices don’t have to be made.
Im fan of his books and comics and it wont change, espescialy that these are only two accusations, they maybe true or not, You do not know that, all You've got is your preassumptions. He is jus a celebrity, even if he is a rapist, It wont surprise me, I care about the words he put on paper, If he will be judged as rapist, I will still read his books for free in internet as I did before, so He wont get any money from me anyway.
She was very clear in the video they were allegations; she never said he was a rapist. She said "here is what is happening, and it is shocking, because we all thought he was a good egg". She was not throwing him under the bus, as it were. And the truth is, as someone who literally did not know what was going on and who both likes some of his work and doesn't like others, is that the fact he was having relationships with EMPLOYEES who were 20s while he was AT LEAST double their age is abhorrent, whether or not it was sexual, and whether or not it was consensual. Just like with Ned from Try Guys, the sex is the least of the problems. It's the fact it was an employee coupled with very different power dynamics.
Sorry but you don't get to withdraw consent retrospectively. The NZ Nanny had a consensual relationship with NG and did very well out of it personally. When the bucks dried up she suddenly realised she had been assaulted. It doesn't work that way.
Entering into a relationship with your employee, especially the night you meet her, especially if she’s 40 years younger than you, is fucked up. Maybe not illegal, but ripe for power imbalance and emotional abuse
@@foxesofautumn it is. If you want to make some case for or against someone at least look like you know the topic but when you don’t know the very name of the famous person that tells a lot.
The point is that we shouldn't worship anyone and just enjoy their work because they are all only people who are just as flawed as anyone, and giving that much importance on singular persons opinions, words and actions is bad in any scenario
If you or someone you know needs support:
RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline: 1-800-656-4673
RAINN Online Chat: online.rainn.org
Crisis Text Line: Text HELLO to 741741 (US); 85258 (UK); 686868 (CAN); 50808 (Ireland)
DoD Safe Helpline: 877-995-5247
National Domestic Violence Hotline: 877-995-5247
Rape Crisis England and Wales: 0808 500 2222
The best advice? What comedian Josh Johnson said after the allegations about Lizzo's treament of her dancers came out. He said it was important to not mistake talent for character.
Something that people seem to not want to acknowledge is that flawed or even bad people can be talented. Picasso was a terible person but we cant deny his talent or the fact that he was thinking about the war's victims. Another example is Lovecraft whose infuence in literature people have tried to minimise because he was one of the most racists people to have walk on this earth. I believe that doesnt help because then you have people denying that Gaiman would do something bad since he is talented and his ideas are things that we morally agree with. If you dont idolize you wont be disapointed and you will be more objective with news like this.
Absolutely, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I read a memoir from one of Picasso’s “muses” earlier this year, Life with Picasso by Francoise Gilot, and was shocked by just how awful he was, even though I was already aware. You’re absolutely right that minimizing an artist’s influence doesn’t help-we have to come to terms with the fact that horrible people can make great art, and vice versa.
Picasso ended his years imprisoned by his greedy mistress. He was the product of the culture of Catalan which personified macho for reasons dating back to Roman occupation. Originally a soft self indulgent effeminate society which lead to their conquest by the martial, masculine Rome, the males eventually resolved never to show weakness again. So they over threw the matriarch and developed a patriarchy dysfunctional in its extremism! I understand that papers have been written about. How ironic that Picasso ended up under female domination in his latter years.
Lovecraft adopted Aryanism and saw himself as a sort of superman by vitue of his Nordic ancestry. He once wrote of himself, " I am of course a descendant chalk pale, blood drinking Viking warriors ..." He named his black cat a derogatory name for a certain race and was anti-Semitic. Even so, like Picasso, he experienced a reversal when he married the love of his life, a Jewish woman!😮
@@tracywilliams7929Lovecraft also recanted his views before his death and called them foolish.
I hate it when people start jumping on the "AH HA I ALWAYS KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING GOING ON WITH THAT GUY!" bandwagon of gloatery when things like this come out...but.....
I went though a massive fangirl phase over Neil Gaiman's work, and even the man himself, when I was in college and depressed. Checked his blog every day and stayed up until like 4 in the morning every night reading through the archives, messaged him (but never got a reply), sought out interviews, went to hear him talk when he came to my city, you name it. Gradually, I started to get a weird feeling about him as I noticed that, for as outspoken as he was about causes I agreed with, he didn't really seem to hold himself accountable or admit any kind of wrongdoing or acknowledge that there was ever any kind of "before" stage on that journey of human growth that led to him being as progressive as he purported to be. Like he was born perfect, and his only flaws are, like, whichever cute ones would make him seem more endearing to his adoring fan base. This was most apparent after he got some flack from rape culture blogs for facetiously saying "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch" (in response to somebody asking whether Martin had any responsibility to finish the Game of Thrones series) and his response was to throw a temper tantrum and essentially say "MY CAT JUST DIED you're all monsters for calling me out on anything." (He literally wished a "pox" on anyone trying to hold him accountable for his use of that language.)
I remember Henry Selick describing Gaiman as possessing a "cat-like superiority" when the film adaptation of Coraline came out and while I believe it was meant affectionately, I kept thinking about that phrase whenever I read an interview or saw Gaiman speak. He always presented this ultra-curated persona of the bumbling, floppy-haired, well-meaning but oblivious artist who CAN'T POSSIBLY believe his work is admired so ardently, while simultaneously affirming just how correct and wonderful and morally upright his fans must be for liking him. It started to strike me as a bit culty.
Anyway, it's almost counter-productive to talk about red flags since the point of this video (which I very much agree with) is that we shouldn't worship ANYBODY, no matter how cool they seem and how much their work speaks to us. But any public figure who leans that far into the parasocial relationship with their fans and who seems to believe that uncritically in their own self-mythologizing (even in spite of evidence to the contrary) is always going to make me squint suspiciously at them.
Yes...I've been a fan for a long time, but stuff like that had started putting me off him as a person. As well as his playing humble, yet also promoting himself for winning this award or that award. I remember when he (deservedly tbh) called Daniel Handler out for making a stupid, racist 'joke' at a book awards thing, a few years back, and yet he was allegedly doing far, far worse things himself. Admire someone's talent indeed, but this whole thing has really made me learn to stop putting said talent on pedestals. They're not gods, just folk like you and me. It's when they start believing their own god status and using that to manipulate worshipping fans, then :(
Not to be a dick but there've always been signs--the way he treated his wife when they were divorcing being one of them (she was a PoS too but that's not an excuse). The way he brushed off all possible criticism as people "just not getting it" and going smugly back to his fandom; that's an echo chamber. Frankly, the way he presented himself as being the "weird uncle you're safe being weird with" needs to become a visible red flag; it's the same as a hundred other nerdy/alt creators who turn out to be creeps--they isolate fans by claiming no one else understands them, they have shared secrets due to being part of the same small communities. It's an easy way for a predator to set themselves up as important, safe, and comforting in a vulnerable person's life.
Typical "there have always been signs" comment. It's called hindsight bias. The point is everyone can be the target of SA allegations, regardless of signs.
I swear the alt/nerd predator epidemic needs to be studied. Why are so many of them groomers or just creeps?
@@nachoalfonso2614Yes, anyone can be a victim. Yes, our intuition is not 100% an accurate source. And yes, red flags don’t always signal danger.
But does that mean we should stop trusting our instincts?
When someone surprises us (or doesn’t) in turning out to be a predator, should we stop ourselves from thinking about their behavior and how that does or doesn’t jibe with our previous ideas about them as a person? Or from going over the red flags we either missed or ignored?
I don’t think any single person who’s making this type of comment is saying “the victims should’ve known better.” If they do, fuck em. That’s not okay.
But the fact is that Gaiman, like so many powerful men, preyed on vulnerable women. The instance of Scarlett’s allegations makes that abundantly clear.
Another fact is that abuse doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
When someone in our community reveals themselves to be a predator or abuser, I think we do have to ask ourselves what we can do to make things safer for vulnerable people and what we can do to make it harder for predators to operate among us. This is just caring and being responsible.
Neil Gaiman is not part of our community in the sense that is typically meant. But we have all participated in lauding his works or giving his social media presence visibility. In some ways we have participated in making him richer and more powerful and in building his nebbishy “good guy” persona, all of which he has used to attract and intimidate his victims. We are not responsible for what happened to them. But we can be responsible for taking the information that we do know now and building a safer world for everyone.
We stop supporting the creator. If they are dead chose your battles and decide if it's the effort; it's important to still acknowledge that they did wrong and weird things. I'm a fan of H.P. & Poe for what is worth.
I agree that ending financial support is the best way to go, as is continuing to acknowledge the writer’s problems. And as you mentioned, it’s possible to do that and still be a fan of the work itself. Thanks!
I feel lucky that my own problematic fave, David Foster Wallace, was already stone dead before I had ever heard of him, and fell in love with his work, and heard of how he abused at least one partner. When I did come to know of the darker side of him, it provided context to how he had written with such insight into the evil that men do, as it were. I'm not saying he did everything he wrote about, but that he had better insight into why a person might behave that way. It does make some reading decidedly uncomfortable though, for me particularly the short story in Brief Interviews With Hideous Men wherein a woman is abducted by a rapist/serial killer and talks herself out of the situation by just saying the exact right empathetic things.
I'm not a huge Gaiman fan, I say with Sandman on my shelf. I have read (or half-read) several books besides. Since hearing this news my minds keeps turning to a short story in Fragile Things, Keepsakes and Treasures: A Love Story, in which the narrator hires two child prostitutes, one of whom apparently enjoys herself, the other of whom is curtly described as 'not good' because she 'cried the whole time' (paraphrasing.) Let's just say that I believe Neil Gaiman has done some meditating on messed up sexual dynamics, particularly with age gaps. I don't think Neil Gaiman is a child rapist any more than I think DFW was a serial killer, just that I can believe the seeds of cruelty were within them when I read the evil portrayed in their work.
I haven't read any Alice Munro but there is a similar discussion going on about her work after the news recently broke of her own misdeeds in protecting her pedophile husband.
I don't think all artists who portray evil do evil things, but that it's also not a coincidence that Kevin Spacey often played villains and creeps. We can best portray what we ourselves deeply understand, for one reason or another. I wish people engaged with media with a more critical eye.
Wait I'm midway through Infinite Jest rn and haven't heard these DFW allegations can u enlighten me?
@@nickpeitchev7763 ok caveat IJ is my favourite book so even if he's a total asshole, the book is still good imho. But it definitely lacks fully developed female characters.
His ex-girlfriend, Mary Karr, a famous poet in her own right, was abused by DFW. The things that stick out in my mind are that he once tried to push her out of a moving vehicle, he threw her coffee table at her, and that after she broke up with him he kinda stalked her, culminating in him trying to buy a gun to kill her husband. (After all that he married a women who he was with until his death, and she says he never did anything abusive to her.) But Mary Karr has to live with the first interview question always being about her dead ex who was awful to her, rather than her own work, which says more about society than DFW but is still shitty. He also tried to sleep with as many of his students and female fans of his work as possible, which is exploiting a power dynamic at best and really gross no matter what. He also had a thing for young mothers (like Orin in IJ...)
None of that makes the quality of his writing less good, but it provides perspectives on what he chose to write and how he chose to portray things. He obviously had a problem empathizing with/understanding the perspectives of women.
I was dying laughing at Gaimans "b1thces be crazy" argument. Sometimes your favorite creators are bad people
Been struggling with a lot of anger and grief. Several of Gaiman’s novels helped me through difficult times and led me to some of my best friends. I know I’m gonna have to step away from his stuff for awhile.
3:59 wooooooooooooow what the actual f
Amanda Palmer, Whakanewha (Jan. 2024):
"Another suicidal mass / Landing on my doorstep, thanks a ton / Oh, darling, how can I repay you for what you have done? / ... / You'll get away with it, it's just the same old script / This world is shaped to have your back / You said, "I'm sorry," then you ran / And went and did it all again"
The fact that male celebrities being genuinely kind and good people that don't SA women are a minority is depressing, everyone has flaws but the bare f*cking minimum of human decency should be treating people with respect 🙏
The thing about celebrity is that the more they hype themselves up, the more likely they are to believe in the shiny sparkly façade they create for themselves. Surely they're above all this "ethics" concept, surely they're a breed above everyone else. If any dodgy behaviour comes to light, they have their great reputation first, and the support of an adoring fanbase who will prop them up.
@@black-aliss “greatness is a transitory experience.”
Separating the art from the author would be much easier if the author in question did not make a big deal about his niceness, kindness, progressive beliefs or approachability. Hypocrisy is not a good look on anyone, especially one who works as hard as Gaiman to dance for his audience. Much as I loved his work as a teenager, I was disillusioned almost as soon as I found his social media. Not that the uncanny feeling I got from him was easy to explain.
I'm a longtime NG fan, and yes, part of me says 'no, he absolutely did not do this'. But as a victim of SA myself, it would be so wrong of me not to believe these women first. It's even harder when a so-called hero of yours has been preaching about believing women, etc. Hero/celebrity worship can often blind us to the worst things imaginable. I only learned about the Alice Munro thing today too (and what she didn't do). Sigh.
Why believe anything? It's literally just allegations, a judge will decide wether he is or isn't a predator. Taking a stance either way at this moment is ignorant.
@@nachoalfonso2614 wow, what a very naïve and ignorant reply. Maybe listen to the actual podcasts and then reframe your reply? Yes, innocent until proven guilty by a court of law...but from what I heard and from NG's own audio, it's pretty damning stuff. Or are you a besotted fan who values your book collection over now at least 5 different women's stories?
@@nachoalfonso2614 Oh and of course, you have no channel videos, and have no profile picture. What a surprise.
@@EmlynBoyle It's the dumbest gatekeeping I've read in a while. I don't need to make videos or have a public prpfile to share an opinion. And certainly you are not going to police what I can or can't say.
As a SA victim myself I have processed enough trauma to be able to separate art from the artist. Those stories are amazing regardless of the author's behaviour. And no I am not going to condemn anyone, that's for the justice system not me as a reader. You want to form your own opinion and decide to stop buying his stuff have at it, I won't take a side either way. Don't project your struggles into other people, didn't they teach you that in therapy?
I’m a fan of the man’s work not of the man himself, I never attach myself to artist because from what I’ve observed many artist wether it be actors, musicians ect. Carry a lot of baggage and some can say that’s where they may pull from to create their work? Some of my favorite directors and actors have some sketchy backgrounds. Buy second hand, that way they will not receive revenue. He has a brilliant mind, his work is something special. Another extremely flawed individual. Not that I’m patting the man on the hand he deserves the criticism and negative attention but I myself can’t deny the impact his work has in my life.
I am/was a fan, and this is definitely a tough one to process. I think you’re right that we can accept the good and the bad at the same time, but I have to step away from him for a while myself.
That’s completely understandable! In retrospect, I should have added that coming to some conclusion about whether to keep enjoying his work is probably going to take time for a lot of fans-you certainly don’t have to figure it out now.
People are people. Doesn't matter what status they hold or what industry they belong to. People are flawed and screw up, at best, or deliberately commit sinister acts, at worst. If anything, this incident once again opens up an important conversation about consent and respect for boundaries. As a guy, I'll admit I've had to learn some hard lessons about respecting other's boundaries and also respecting myself enough to stand up for my own. I've admired Gaiman for years and these accusations have been hard to digest. Heard the podcast last night and it's a messy situation. The effect his books and views on art have had on my creative development will never be eroded, but my naive impression of him as an enlightened saint of progressivism is gone. Perhaps it's best this way. People, after all, are people.
It's kinda funny that you mentioned the "At least we still have..." thing.
I used to be a big fan of both J.K. Rowling and Joss Whedon. When I found out what they were really like, my reaction was "At least I still have Neil Gaiman..."
Oh yes let’s compare men who sexually assault women to a female author who stuck up for women and our rights to not have men in our restrooms which are extremely vulnerable places. You’re a joke
What did Rowling do ?
@@ladybookworms "speaking out about women's rights" lol. Allowing trans people to be who they are doesn't infringe on women's rights. And yes, transphobia is definitely a thing.
@@KarlKristofferJohnsson This is my final comment here and to you. I know you won't agree, or listen or even rationally think about what I said here, and that's fine. We don't have to agree. So there is no need to respond to me nothing you say will provoke me to respond to you calling my transphobic, cuz that is not a thing. It's beyond phobia now.
@@ladybookworms transphobia is as real as homophobia. If you look at the arguments transphobes and terfs have, they're EXACTLY the same people used to rally fear and hate against the gays before. The bigots just needed a new scapegoat group to funnel their hate of the other into as hating the gays is going out of vogue. Same bs, new target.
I strongly disagree that “Neil Gaiman doesn’t understand boundaries, power dynamics or professionalism”. He ABSOLUTELY does - the fact is he gets a great thrill from transgressing these standards. This is who he is and now anyone who hadn’t noticed this about him will have to accept that parasocial relationships and projections of your own moral standards does not mean that your favourite celebrity is known to you and is the same as you, despite the temptation of fandom to market and sell back “your tribe” to you.
I’m honestly more surprised how many people/women don’t pick up on the signs of male sexual entitlement, poor boundaries and narcissism that Neil Gaiman has and which is layered into his writing and appearances, mostly because they like the adaptions of his work and desperately desire him to be a pinnacle of “good guy” male standard. He has always been, and shall always remain, a man.
He also comes from a family of wealthy Scientologists, and was raised in it. He claims not to be one but he also consistently makes donations to the church.As a culture we have to keep an eye on people who may have hidden agendas,who infiltrate into positions of power.While claiming to be something else.
He’s a just man, Christopher. For most women that’s enough of a reason to suspect an alternative “agenda”. Many more men than decent men realise are sexual creepers towards women. It’s hard to believe without being on the receiving end of aggressive male sexuality - it’s across all demographics of males.
Great. So now all men are demons.
Gaiman sucks and deserves to be punished if the allegations against him prove true, but hearing people cast stones against your gender being fundamentally evil somehow makes me mad.
Most of his mostly casual fans had didn’t look into him enough to notice. I didn’t even know he’d divorced the singer until this video.
I really appreciated this video! I would not necessarily consider myself a fan of Neil Gaiman himself, but rather a fan of Good Omens, as that is the only work of his I have read/watched. That being said, Good Omens has been one of, if not the, most important piece of literature/media in my life. I find myself always eventually returning to it in some way. What has helped me come to terms with this newly revealed information about one of its creators, is reminding myself that this story in particular has been a joint work since the beginning, so the credit of it is not all owed to one man. Also, I am allowing myself to still enjoy this media because, like you mentioned, I could not have known, and Good Omens is still very important to me in many ways, including it being a huge source of inspiration for me. I too made the connection between this situation and my enjoyment of classic literature authors. I myself am a huge fan of Mary Shelley, specifically Frankenstein, but I recognize the failings of Shelley rather than put her upon a pedestal, and claim she can do no wrong. As you perfectly articulated, idolizing people, especially public figures, should be avoided. Thank you for sharing this video! I just discovered your channel through this video, and I am definitely subscribing and watching your other content!
I know it's way too early to make any grand assessments about him, plus, I would hate to drag an innocent person's name through the mud, but I've always felt that Gaiman was a little too accessible to his fans, especially on his social media account via Tumblr. If you go over there any given day, he'll reblog and answer a million questions. The accessibility is bizarre. It just seems like a normal, down-to-earth author would not be as available to fans. You know? Also, I feel like authors are a little more reined in about their fan interactions than a celeb or a singer.
Always separate art from artist. Both for the artist, the self and the art.
Gaiman's commencement speech was an inspiration for me, I used to listen to it in a loop to get fuel to finish my projects. I stoped following and admiring him after the netflix adaptation of Sandman and his attacks on fans who were dissapointed on the appereance changes of Death and other characters. Claiming everyone was either racist or sexist was blinded and hypocritical attacks. At the end of the day he designed those characters with the original appereance. Was he a racist and sexist then but saw the "light" and for netflix he had redemption and stopped being racist and sexist? He got on a high moral horse and tried to look down on people. I tried to give that adaptation a chance but found it empty and melodramatic, like a Fantasy soap opera lacking the magic of the comics. The only actors who had talent or capture the essence of their characters were Tom Sturridge, Boyd Holbrook and Donna Preston. My only conclusion was he was trying to get on the good graces with producers or actresses he was romantically/se***ly interested in conquering. I was not surprise when these accusations of abuse appeared. There is nothing illegal in what he did (both women were consenting adults) but they do show the essence of manipulation to get what he wants with no regard of people's feelings. And also cruel and violent fetiches that contrast with his hypocrytical comments against fans and men in general. The episode of Calliope was a whole statement against abusers, written to signal all men as abusers... all men except, of course, Gaiman who wrote it. He is a hypocrite. He thought fans were slaves of him when in reality most people either like or dislike his books or creations depending on the content and what emotions they evoke, not because they idioleze Gaiman. People don't blindly follow artists (or they shouldn't, just like you recomend in your video). We follow art and what it makes us feel. Art and artist must always be separated, otherwise you end up in a cult, defending people who are just that, humans, and not gods
Ok, Neil Gaiman may have been a monster in SAing those two women, but wtf are you talking about? The Netflix adaptation wasn't perfect but it was the best we have gotten. He's correct in claiming that most people upset with the casting was sexists and racists. Even if I grant your nonsense some credence, you're right. "At the end of the day he designed those characters with the original appereance." And, at the end of the day, he can do whatever the fuck he wants with his characters. He can change it if he thinks it is better. And I would argue it was.
@@ArvindRajAgnosticAtheist The creator can do whatever he wants with his stories and characters but the fans can also do whatever they want too with their opinions, views and money. Like I said, fans are no slaves to any franchise or author. Fans follow stories, emotions, love and respect, not idiologies or insults disguise as "high moral". When you fall in love with a story and characters you want to see them faithfully represented. It's like getting home one day and finding your parents and siblings race-washed. You would yell "they are not my real family!" So calling people "racist" por washing is just manipulation through trying to make them feel bad with themselves and inferior when they are not doing anything wrong in reality. That's what abusers do: try to make you feel bad so they can control you. There are so many stories they could have adapted, like Imaro or Raybearer or sooooooo many others, but instead chose to create controversy by race and gender swaping just to cater to the ideological current of hollywood and some cities of the US. I am latina and dont go around "crying" to have representation. Where is my Ecuadorian in the eternals or in any episode of the sandman adaptation? There is none. There is also none in the comics and I dont care, I loved the stories and characters. The adaptation is mediocre and full of ideiological discourse that doesn't even try to be subtle. The only reason why they didn't change the Corinthian's appereance is because he was male and blond which nowadays equals to evil. And again, neither Gaiman nor Netflix made the changes for any artistic reason, Gaiman made them to try to cater to the ideological mob that were in charge of film companies and who were trying to control people by calling them racists, sexists and whatever "ists" they felt like to. I also think Gaiman did this to try and cover his abuses by "showing" he was "woke". He is a manipulator. Fans are not racists or sexists for complaining for radical changes in source materials. Go wtite new stories with original characters instead of gender or race-appropriating them. The movie of the last air bender was a flop because or the race swape, we wanted characters who looked like Katara and Soka, those poor white actors looked nothing like the original characters ergo they were rejected. It's no racism to love the original source and appereances.
You feeling entitled to an adaptation being slavishly devoted to its source material is not really evidence that the author is a bad person. It's just evidence that you're entitled.
What are you talking about? What's wrong with Death being black, etc? So that's what put you off NG and not this? Wow, doesn't someone feel entitled...oh and look, you're a Rings of Power hater too, what a surprise.
Neil's last name is pronounced 'gay-man' - you can look it up. I think this one has hit the algorithm cause I'm far from your usual audience, so maybe brace for that.
Thank you. He might be a PoS, but the way she mispronounces the name constantly is annoying.Also, Ian McKellen. Not McClellan
@@hadnoideahowOh, so he's a PoS now? I thought he was just accused...
Amanda Palmer is not exactly the shining beacon of morality either but go off girl.
I have been gigantic fans of both of them. Both their works found me in a time that I desperately need their art.
I wish only healing and love to the accusers in this situation.
I've never put authors on a pedestal, and I've never been much of a Gaiman fan apart from enjoying some of the TV series, but the news is still shocking 😞 Thank you for the thoughtful video!
For people struggling with this I recommend T S Eliot. In his essay on Aristocracy he introduces his theory of the "Objective Correlative" which attempts to resolve the cognitive dissonance produced by artists whose lives seemingly contradict the truths their works represent so beautifully.
Few artists would benefit from that theory more than T.S. Eliot.
But anyway. I believe that artists can reach for truth in their work that they do not achieve in their lives.
I'll always consider him one of the best writers of fiction of all time. It's not up to me to judge him, there's a due process for that. The judge will decide wether the allegations have merit or not.
AKA idol worship - all human beings are human beings, ie. no one should ever be worshipped.
Agree. You can be a fan of the person's work without liking them.
A huge part of the problem here absolutely is the notariety and power he had that allowed him to take advantage of people. The women who have come forward have all said that they felt special because he’s so famous and then later, unable to speak out for the same reason. The general consensus among fans has been to stop giving him money, and I do think that’s the right course but I think I will continue privately loving the stories of his that I love the most.
Unfortunately, I have come to the realization and sad acceptance that, given a long enough time line, any man I/you/we hold in positive esteem will end up being a disappointment in some of the worst possible ways. Obviously nOt OnLy MeN, but it's almost always men.
Well phrased and well said about the dynamics of this particular case. I hope you don’t suffer for framing a truth about this situation.
I truly appreciate that, thank you very much! 😊
You should read Catherynne Valenti (sp)
Neil Gaiman ( Gay -man) during his 8 year marriage with Amanda Palmer went through 14 nannies during that time period.
He was sexually inappropriate and probably a CREEP. But behind that seemingly calm, kind and charming Fantasy Rock Star public persona, The Dream King is a sexual sadist.
I will always enjoy the universe he created, but I can separate the artist from the art.
Just so you know, I almost didn't listen to your arguments due to the hyperbole at the beginning. It's an extreme take. I'm pleased to see you're much more reasonable and thoughtful with your thoughts.
On another note, if these allegations are true then Amanda Palmer is complicit. The nanny was hired by Palmer and, allegedly, when she informed Palmer of what had happened her response was that 14 other women had come to her saying something similar. Palmer has not responded to anything yet, and she may have some interesting answers for her alleged actions, but if this is true, it's not looking great for her either as she did nothing and actively seemed to be protecting Gaiman.
I think Amanda Palmer is the worst, but I wouldn’t consider her complicit in these crimes unless she did something deliberately to silence these women. Am I saying I don’t think the accusations are true…I believe they are and I believe Gaiman used the free-love excuse for his behavior because why else go for the nanny? Why was he going for everybody in the exact orbit of his life with Palmer if not to rankle and abuse her as well. So ya know if she snapped at the lady because she was annoyed with his bullshit I can’t blame her, because boundaries were clearly blurry in his favor because they had an open relationship, and that means something different to a lot of people . I think it’s very unfortunate, but I am nearly certain that in both of these cases it will all likely be dropped because of the ambiguity of the scenarios and both women ultimately getting written off ass clout chasers who deliberately placed themselves in said scenario only to renege later on an unspoken agreement of an open relationship. It sucks, but it’s disheartening in its predictability. However, I believe them.
@@FreyaEinde I'm not convinced of anything at this point. Many scenarios are possible. All I am saying is that if this woman's story is true, then Palmer deliberately did nothing to help these women, even after it happened to 15. Maybe she felt powerless, maybe she was in on it, I don't know. I'm just looking at the accusation provided.
That’s fair! The opening was my attempt to make an “attention-grabbing hook” like the UA-cam gurus always suggest, haha 😅
I absolutely agree about Amanda Palmer. I actually haven’t followed her closely over the past few years, and unfortunately at this point I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if she was complicit-disappointed though, given that I thought she was a fierce supporter of survivors. You’re right, no one is looking good in this situation.
@@ThoughtCouture My reaction was the same. Assuming that all successful men are sexual monsters is an abhorrent perspective to take, and to be honest, your defense-that it was just an attempt to click-bait-makes it even worse. But it worked for you; the video has a lot of views, so congrats, I guess. EDIT: I was pleased that around the 9min mark you made a much better point: that we shouldn't assume that a person who makes great art is necessarily a good person.
@@jwinstons3352Yeah it's not a good look to start off a video about a serious thing where the only source is a conservative, radfem, and transphobic outlet (one of them is a terf who hates Gaiman for arguing with Rowling). With arguments in the podcast (which also literally used his face for clickbait, made people sign up to view the story, and are generally very unethical about the whole thing) such as "well obviously it assault, all bdsm is evil", starting the video off with gender essentialism obviously puts people off.
For some reason, in the past few months, I've really just become awash in nuance and accepting that everyone I interact with or see is imperfect, and I don't fully know them. I've "known" that for years, but I'm also really starting to _understand_ it. One of my favorite character types right now is a character who knows they're hypocritical on some level, has given up on seeing themselves as a "good person," and just does their best because what else _is_ there to do? I like endings that aren't "happily ever after" but more "happily enough ever after, but still messy." It's always going to be messy and complicated, and full of cognitive dissonance. And I'm learning to sit with and sometimes enjoy cognitive dissonance, without leaning on any thought-terminating cliches. Because what can anybody do except make personal decisions about who and what they're comfortable supporting, and their best to help and support those who need it?
Been struggling with a lot of anger and grief. Several of Gaiman’s novels helped me through difficult times and led me to some of my best friends. I know I’m gonna have to step away from his stuff for awhile.
3:59 wooooooooooooow what the actual f
6:38 on divorcing fandoms and things from ourselves- I did this with HP when JKR went full publically anti trans. I know for me one of the hard things is wanting to see real accountability. It hurts to find so many people I have looked up to or who have influenced my life have hurt other people, on any scale.
Learn the man's name! His last name is pronounced like "gay men"!
I am team accountability and fuck the age difference - if women have that kind of relationships, it's all "woooh, you go girl!", so let adults do, what they want.
The consent issue though does weigh very heavy on my heart...if that is true, he should face consequences, that is unacceptable in any relationship!
If you can love Wagner's music, Picasso's art and Thomas Jefferson's contributions to the founding of the USA, you have to ignore most of their unsavory personal lives. Gaiman - _if found guilty of the accusations_ - will be no different. Not sure about New Zealand/UK, but in the US, a person is innocent unless found guilty.
Any kind of People at the end of the day are still human. As humans, we have the capacity to be flawed, good, horrible, kind and horrifying. Hold ppl accountable for their actions, but never hold them up on a pedestal.
Ffs why do celebrities do this? They have everything!
Because they think they can get away with everything.
Thank you for being kind, I've been trying to find some better videos talking about this and I'm kind of disgusted with how many people just immediately start jumping onto "I never liked his work and if you liked it you were weird" and acting Superior just because they think they knew better because of a matter of taste. Also the amount of terfs using it as opportunity to just say it's our fault for liking his work because he's a man and we should have expected it. As if women can't ever be abusers or problematic in any way
Marion Zimmer Bradley
I hope he gets half the hate JK does and that from now on everyone goes 'but fuck the author' tight after mentioning Coraline
There is one rule and that is power corrupts. Who they were when they started is not the same person as who they are after they achieve incredible levels of success.
I'm okay with authors and artists being assholes... since we are anyways okay with politicians and businessmen being assholes. Many of my fav authors have been accused of racism and sexism and what a not... the problem is when death of the author is not a thing. I don't like a lot of what Neil Gaiman has recently done but I also like a lot of his work and once it's out it is not fully really his books. Same for actors and whatever... they're just people, they can be good or bad I don't care. You can't really say "this person would NEVER do such and such a thing", that's a really weird thing to say. Being good at a thing doesn't mean you're automatically a good person.
That said nothing much is going to change for me about reading the books he wrote because for me it is about the books and the stories and not about the author. Those books are MINE too now.
Forget about we don't know celebs, we sometimes don't even know the people closest to us and anyone can do horrible things. I have never religiously followed Gaiman or any artist I follow the art. And I think THE AUDIENCE and the people who put artists and celebs on a pedestal and treat them differently are a big PART OF THE PROBLEM if not most of it. I don't think we can lay the blame squarely on the person and not subscribe some of the blame to the society at the time and the amount of unholy attention and conditioning these people go through, not to mention some ego and arrogance if they are hyped up or see themselves as superior. Take the art leave the artist.
Follow your heart on how to deal with this though.
you're ok with people being assholes? That doesn't sound healthy, to me, but I'm not a dr or a psychologist.
I think a person making a mistake or doing something wrong is human, but intentionally not learning from your mistakes and doing the wrong thing over and over again, that's not good. I think it's ok to admire talent in people.
Death of the author is from the 60s- I think we as a society have grown since then and can regocnize the flaws in death of the author. (One example, the financial aspect that really wasn't addressed in death of the author). Think about other social things we have grown past since the 60s- gay marraige is pretty much common place in most developed countries, disability rights are a thing now, women can get divorced. To think that the Death of the Author is the end all be all of literary criticsim is a pretty antiquated idea.
edit: aw jeeze- just saw your other comment. Your apathy toward humanity really should be check out. Is it "big brain logic" or is it crippling depressing? Respecfully, please get help. I don't think you're a jerk- I think you're probably a really good person. Right now, you sound like a jerk, but I don't think that's really who you are as a person. I genuinely don't mean to sound condisending. I just feel that I really realate to you and that I've been in your situation before. Please get some help with your mental health so that you can feel better about the world around you
@@KindredKayeyeah, I think that people are wayyy too accepting of supporting literal horrible people, including the original commenter, assaulting and abusing someone doesn’t make someone “human” or “flawed” they’re horrible people and don’t deserve decency
Has he already been proven guilty? After the Amber Heard situation I started to wait until all the evidence is out and a trial has been televised before I condemn someone.
But then, I stopped expecting celebrities I like to be good people after Marion Zimmer Bradley and Bill Cosby.
As is mentioned in this video, even if you set aside the SA allegations, the things he's admitted to are still concerning and may turn people off of his work. A 60 year old married man and international celebrity having a sexual or romantic relationship with an early 20's individual who works for him is a hell pf a power imbalance.
Amber Heard’s
Failing was not being able to afford better lawyers than Depp.
@@foxesofautumn I think the Depp-Heard situation is more nuanced than most people like to believe. I'm always wary of being roasted when I point out the big power imbalance between the two and its implications, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.
All celebrities are just people, some guy or some gal that has a talent in one (or sometimes more) fields and it has made them known to a large group of other people. And yes, bad or imperfect people can and often are, very talented. With art I often distance myself from authors beforehand. Because I feel that once the art is made public, the artist no longer has any say in it. And when I see a painting that resonates with me, it's me, that painting and my interpretation of it. Of course, there is the question of support, financial and a perceived one for the author/artist (if you buy their books, paintings, music... you are in their eyes and the eyes of most people supporting them as a person). And when the celebrity is very vocal and/or the wrong was a big one (according to me), I do stop giving financial "support". Even though it is often people, who already have more than enough to never need to earn another cent to live comfortably (or even luxuriously) to the end of their life.
I appreciate your perspective on this. Coraline really meant a lot to me, but it just feels disgusting to me now because he did disgusting things and he's not at all who he said he is. There's such a discrepancy between his public image and the ways he took advantage of his position of power to hurt people. I guess I've learned not to put authors on a pedestal.
I rarely put authors or any celebrity on a pedestal. Except a very few who’s live and for I follow for years like Cornelia funke. Because I’ve always had a problem with idolizing someone I don’t know it just never made sense for me. And often times when I hear of a new author especially more well known ones I google them before my adhd gets to into it 😂 because then I know, especially if their well established or not here anymore what stances they had and if I want to read them.
This news makes me sad. I am a fan of Good Omens. I find the main characters and their relationship really special. I hope it doesn’t get cancelled because of this.
This is the first I've heard of it. I am glad it was your video, as you presented it so comprehensively and thoughtfully. You seem so very well spoken and delightfully articulate. You gained a new subscriber, as a result.
I never looked too deeply into his personal life but was always curious what broke up his marriage.
I first struggled with this when I learned the writer of one of my favorite books turned out to be homophobic. I have a number of gay friends, so I struggle with it. I sometimes get through by reminding myself, we are all more than just one thing.
I truly look forward to further videos from you.
Be well!🙋🏼♂️
The big takeaway is don't worship people. Enjoy their art, but people are flawed. Some more flawed than others.
The illusion that we have free will or choice about doing good or bad has been shown to be overly optimistic, bordering on delusional. I refer people to Professor Sapolsky's Lecture Collection | Human Behavioral Biology Stanford | available here on UA-cam.
Sorry to nit-pick. It's pronounced gay-min
Who the hell cares.
Honestly, after JK Rowling, I learned to just not hero worship anyone ever lol
yeah, that horrible woman ruined my favorite childhood series. i mean, went to harry potter world for my 21st bday. can't see anything related to it now without feeling sick. hope she rots.
Love Amanda and Dresden, I’ve only seen Amanda though. No Brian. Love her Asking book. What I’m really uncomfortable with is when I hear about a celebrity doing something abysmal I’m never surprised. Art needs to be separated from the artist. People forget that celebrities are also people.
I'm don't particularly put celebrities, authors or otherwise, up on a pedestal. The problem for me isn't that I feel bad that he's a flawed person, it's that it makes it hard for me to enjoy his work. There are different levels of this. I started reading H.P. Lovecraft long after his death and so his views don't bother me that much because i don't feel like I'm supporting those views or giving money to him when I read his books. Meanwhile I don't even enjoy watching other people talk about J.K. Rowling anymore let alone enjoy her work. I haven't entirely decided what to do with Gaiman. Part of that will depend on if this feels like a ongoing issue or not, but some of it will just be whether i can enjoy the book.
I am/was a Neil Gaiman fan. I am shocked. I understand writers may be flawed but Virginia Woolf was who she was in a specific time period. We know what we know about her flaws because she did not misrepresent herself. To do what Gaiman has been alleged to do requires willfull manipulation and misrepresentation. He stood for a certain moral stance but apparently did not feel a need to live by it. My current feeling is that I want to burn all the books of his I own and never talk about him as a writer again.
I loved some of his stuff, but I quit him, as he had a habit sprinkling perverse violence and deeply weird sex scenes throughout his work. If you love his work, buy it used so you don't give him money. You can also buy it new and give money to someone who is now being accused of coercing a divorced woman with kids to give him regular oral sex, so he didn't shut down the house she cared for and leave her homeless.
I'm paraphrasing here but Neal Stephenson warned about the perils of fandom and parasocial relationships, i.e., never meet your heroes. He said that if you like my books, that's great, but don't presume to know who I am as a person based on the stories that I tell. The book you hold in your hand is the end result of a VERY long, tedious, painstaking process of writing, editing, rewriting, revising, agonizing, and so on and so on. It very likely DOES NOT reflect my personality or politics. The protagonist of my stories most likely do not represent who I am as a person.
I get it now. Gaiman didn’t create the character of Mister Wednesday in American Gods who had consensual but sleazy affairs with young women as a way of seeing the character as a supernatural creep. Mister Wednesday is a self insert character 😮😅😢
Humans are flawed and someone can be both moral and immoral, and do both good and harm in the world. We should not ignore their wrongs or negate their good.
Such a well articulated video! Thank you for making it🙌
Thanks so much for your comment, I really appreciate it! 😊
@thoughtcouture Of course! As a youtuber myself, I get how much effort goes into creating such content. I've been wanting to make a video essay/commentary, too, so that part was really relatable😁
I am not making any particular judgements until the case has been tried in a court of law and I respectfully refuse to add to the court of public opinion until it has been.
Good. You're a sane person. Sadly, most of The Internet is not.
For everyone who's saying that unfortunately it's very hard to prove these cases especially historical ones. Let's see what comes out about the woman with the massive nda. Isn't that a red flag for you that he got her to sign that?
@@doublelightangel we are not the jury. we can believe someone is guilty personally but we still don't for sure what's going on, support the victim, not believe the victim. people say they believe but do nothing or just want a pat on the back.
The further back in time you go for your reading, the less you can accept everything about an author you admire. Classism and misogyny are a given. Racism and religious prejudice, yeah. Teasing out what is worthy and what is unworthy has to be an ongoing project. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?
Im a fan of his work.. as for him im not an uber fan. I have met a few celebrities.. i hung out with Patrick Swayze and his wife lisa at horse shows for example. They are human not perfect and ill reserve judgement. Regardless these ladies were adults and even in their statements the word consentual is repeated.. he may not be a morally upright person idk and i was a victim of SA.. it was NOT CONSENSUAL!!
I used to be a fan of Amanda Palmer until she was unapologetic and doubled down about saying the ‘n word’. I also met Neil at the signing after an Amanda Palmer concert back in the 2010’s (I think 2010 but fuzzy memory) and had known the name but not really much more than that. I think that was the same year or maybe the year after he did a reading at MoFo (a Tasmanian festival) and it was very entertaining, a well written story. That memory is tainted now.
Honestly, I'll just keep reading the books I have and not buy any more. I'm just going to hold him at arm's length, at least for the time being.
I was buying his books used to begin with, no no skin off my nose.
Gaiman has been a very frustrating one for me. I've been gradually engaging with his works over the years but i have no problem with dropping them over this. Youre right, we just dont know when the people we admire might disappoint us. As long as they're alive to benefit from the work, I won't be supporting. This goes for J.K. Rowling too
Any guy who claims to be an Uber feminist/white knight/ anti male should be sending up a red flag ladies.
Was Gaiman "anti-male"?
People can do terrible things and make beautiful art. People can do terrible things and lovely things and you do not have to be the secret arbiter of whether or not they are ultimately a good or bad person or deserved to be forgiven or not. You are not a bad person for liking their art but it is bad to support them. Don’t buy more of their stuff if it’s not used.
I just ordered a collection of his books.... never meet your heros i guess
If you're feeling all smooshie-feely because Neil Gaiman is reading a children's bedtime story to you after a democratic election, that is the best sign you will ever receive that you are idolising an author above his work and will soon be disappointed. Gaiman obviously cultivated the crowd that would fall for him in that way - but you can't blame the conman for conning you!
Let's all of us continue to celebrate the concept of "death of the author" so we can enjoy literature for years to come, despite anything the nasty little people that write that literature may do.
"You love the book but not the author"
Just found out about MBZ today as well with Gaiman... so much disappointmnt.
Gay-min, not Guy-mon.
I like some of his work but wouldn't call myself a fan. At the same time these are allegations that were brought up again by same people in a blog post that literally reads like an ad. The podcast itself is produced like a full cast production with sound effects, music all that jazz. Me saying that makes it less believable is the same illogical jump in thinking as saying just believe them by default. It's all hearsay. Until he makes a statement I remain neutral and consider this issue an accusation. Considering how vocal he has been about trans rights, LGBTQ rights and racism he has made a huge amount of enemies - including Rowling. The journalist who covered this story in the podcast is a known anti-trans movement supporter (and for some reason proud of it), so there's also that. Just my opinion and yes I know I'll be attacked by both extreme right wing people who want to see him fall and the cancellation mobs who see all men as monsters. There is no winning either way. I do hope he finds a way to clear his name, assuming he is innocent.
Edit: As for the title, the issue has absolutely nothing to do with author worship nor fandom in the first place and it's a really weird statement. Like someone being a fan of author's work is suddenly a bad thing. No, sorry. I will continue to support his work until he either admits to what happened fully, or it is otherwise proven. Knowing how blunt and logical Gaiman is, it would not surprise me one bit if he did if he was guilty. He has never shyed away from admitting fault. His world view is extremely nihilistic.
I agree with you. Just thought I'd let you know that you're mispronouncing his last name.
He was the writer who spoke to my soul as a teen. I had a horrible family life and his writing made me feel understood. I started with Sandman and Neverwhere and never looked back. He spoke to the loneliness, the abandonment, the abuse and desperation I suffered. I should have learned after JK Rowling to not place them on a pedestal. I’m learning, it’s sad, I have all his works in my library. How do you separate the writer from their works? Can you? Should you? I’m so angry at him for being just like all the rest of them. It’s such a betrayal, he’s been my favorite author since I was 16, literally 20 years.
Regardless of what he has or hasn't done, please pronounce his name correctly.
I'm with you that we shouldn't worship celebrities but starting the video with"...assume every powerful man has done something bad..." sounds kinda sexist to me.
Can absolutely recommend adding "wo-" before man. "Power corrupts" and so on
eh. look at the stats. how many powerful women commit SA?
@@marigolden_mariposa Well, coerced is coerced ... and that counts, but most of the victims are even more embarrassed than their female counterparts ... so, stats probably do not reflect the reality.
@marigolden_mariposa that's not my point. I know most SAs are committed by men. But assuming all men are guilty is wrong.
i see it as more emphasis on “powerful” that “man.” being a “powerful” man in this current capitalist patriarchal society means dominating and stepping on other ppl (of course there r exceptions lol) but w how things are rn u have to step on ppl to get “to the top.” u could say that our whole modern cultural concept of power is associated w dominating others. u get to a certain point and start thinking u can act however u please. women act the same way but less women can get to that level of being powerful enough to do whatever. i think that if our concept of power and power dynamics were different she wouldn’t have even needed to make that point
Never thought I'd have to lump Lovecraft and Gaiman in the same category, staring at a shelf stuffed with their respective works...and contemplating a future of turning away from anticipated media from the latter.
Evolutionary Psychology has an explanation for his behavior. The male of our species is capable of passing on genes to more offspring than a female. So the genetic code encourages males to be promiscuous as that will ensure more such genes propagate. The most successful male in a tribe often has many wives. It only requires a high degree of success to ensure that a man will take up with as many women as his position allows. And Neil Gaiman preferred young women because they are more likely to be fertile. It is really our genes that determine our behavior for their benefit. Even female morality is based on a distaste for males who are not committed to a single partner and the few young that a woman can have.
Crucifixion by social media is disgusting. You are not in charge of judgment, and your condensation is annoying.
Your opening statement sets the tone. You have clearly already decided he is guilty and appointed yourself Judge,Jury, and Executioner. Even despite your weak, obligitary, "these are only allegations"
The simple fact that you deliberately and wantonly mispronounce his name shows the contempt you have. Check yourself, or perhaps all men should just assume that all women are nasty, judgemental hate mongers, and we can be pleasantly surprised when one isn't.
Not really a fan of Neil Gaiman, he's a great writer, but I'm not a fan of his omniscient 3rd person style of storytelling. Anyway, I've always preached about "death of the author" and not following or disfellowshipping any artist based solely on their public persona of being morally good. The more you look into art history, the more you'll discover that the greatest artists (from Plato to Picasso) are usually the most flawed human beings. It's usually that reconciliation of them coming to terms with their flaws that creates such fantastic art. So if you're waiting to find a saint before you can appreciate their art, then don't hold your breath.
All that being said, I love how quickly people are willing to throw Neil under the bus on account of hearsay without even waiting for the full evidence to be shown. For all we know this could be another Amber Heard situation. Why don't we wait and see the full evidence before sullying the guys reputation? Or is that too much to ask in this social media, clout chasing day and age?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I completely agree, especially with your point about expecting moral purity from artists/writers/anyone-if we do that, we’re all going to end up very lonely.
Also, your comment made me realize perhaps I wasn’t quite clear or fair enough in the video-you’re right, we’re dealing only with accusations without evidence, and it’s fair to withhold judgment until more information comes out.
What a shocking take to have. Signed sealed and guilty without even a day in court.
Ok - so do you love the art or the artist ? Does the art echo the artists actions , we are constantly saying this and that is a spectrum - maybe art and artist is .John Lennon was a horrific narcissist, terrible father , womanizer and generally pessimistic miserable realist . Yet his art came across a humanistic peace loving hippie, he was even told a fan his lyrics are just words put together.
What's "essayed" mean?
I’m not sure I used this word in the video, do you know where it came up?
@@ThoughtCouture They mean 'SA'd' the auto caption probably captioned it like 'essayed'.
@@hadnoideahow I see. Are we not allowed to say "sexual assault" anymore?
Is that an acronym forced upon us by UA-cam's rules or is it some new socially unacceptable thing? I hadn't come across it before.
@@Mallarkeyhonestly it's a toss up. It started as people trying to get around censorship but now it feels like people are willingly and unnecessarily censoring themselves.
@@MallarkeyI’ve heard a lot of creators say that if a video gets demonetized, it’s dead in the water. The algorithm will stop promoting it, which makes it effectively invisible unless you’re specifically looking at a creator’s catalog and happen to notice it. UA-cam takes no accountability for the weird things they do to make advertisers more comfortable and makes the stakes so high for content creators that it’s just not worth it to tempt fate.
You know what, why dont you all just shut your mouths up first before you accuse or assume someone of some crime. The truth is you dont have a clue if he's innocent or guilty, and then when reports say he's innocent you all would be like aww he doesnt deserve this, what aweful women to accuse him of s.a. Wake up, they're post producing 2nd season of The Sandman and cash is flowing, there's actually more reason to be suspicious of the two women if all is taken into account so lets just stop judging Neil too soon once and for all please.
No 😊
@@ofthewilderwoods Good to know you don't wanna actually think about the situation in a meaningful way!
I could care less about sexual harassment claims at this point. Especially after the Johnny Depp stuff. I just don’t care anymore.
"The Johnny Depp stuff" being where he has a history of violence against women and a violent when drunk and angry problem? How is the very real danger women face not something to care about?
Ah, so you think the women are lying even though SA is an underreported crime and reporting it has a negative effect on victims almost every time. Cool. Good to know.
Tell me you’re a man without saying you’re a man….
Why are you surprised? It‘s called Original Sin. Yes, I know that sounds archaic and reactionary, but perhaps our ancestors saw certain things far more clearly and realistically than we do today. For a more recent citation, George Orwell, in his essay on Mahatma Gandhi, wrote: „Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent.“ Words to live by…
I agree with the Orwell quote. Original Sin is not a helpful idea, though. It’s not a “born with it” kind of situation. It’s a series of choices that lead to bad places but those choices don’t have to be made.
Im fan of his books and comics and it wont change, espescialy that these are only two accusations, they maybe true or not, You do not know that, all You've got is your preassumptions. He is jus a celebrity, even if he is a rapist, It wont surprise me, I care about the words he put on paper, If he will be judged as rapist, I will still read his books for free in internet as I did before, so He wont get any money from me anyway.
She was very clear in the video they were allegations; she never said he was a rapist. She said "here is what is happening, and it is shocking, because we all thought he was a good egg". She was not throwing him under the bus, as it were. And the truth is, as someone who literally did not know what was going on and who both likes some of his work and doesn't like others, is that the fact he was having relationships with EMPLOYEES who were 20s while he was AT LEAST double their age is abhorrent, whether or not it was sexual, and whether or not it was consensual. Just like with Ned from Try Guys, the sex is the least of the problems. It's the fact it was an employee coupled with very different power dynamics.
Sorry but you don't get to withdraw consent retrospectively. The NZ Nanny had a consensual relationship with NG and did very well out of it personally. When the bucks dried up she suddenly realised she had been assaulted. It doesn't work that way.
Entering into a relationship with your employee, especially the night you meet her, especially if she’s 40 years younger than you, is fucked up. Maybe not illegal, but ripe for power imbalance and emotional abuse
When you don’t even know who you are talking about because you can’t spell a name…
Wow is that so not the point.
@@foxesofautumn it is. If you want to make some case for or against someone at least look like you know the topic but when you don’t know the very name of the famous person that tells a lot.
So we cant worship out favorite authors just because one author may or may not have performed sexual assault ffs just say it
The point is that we shouldn't worship anyone and just enjoy their work because they are all only people who are just as flawed as anyone, and giving that much importance on singular persons opinions, words and actions is bad in any scenario