That's the exact problem! The articles read like it's a hit piece and I know that rich and influential men sometimes get wrongly accused. But after his "male feminist" stance, he now looks like a huge hypocrite.
He was in a position of power over these women. They didn't want to lose their jobs, home, whatever. That takes consent out of the equation. It was a nonopology, full of gas lighting.
Believe the victims! Coming from someone who has worked with victims as a professional, it is a rarity for a woman to lie about such a thing. These women need so much courage to come forward. The guilt and the shame they feel is insane. The idea that women lie about this sort of thing comes from abusers trying to discredit the victims. I mean in the Portuguese court room, a judge won't even take the victims testimony as suficient evidence for a conviction. There is either medical proof or witnesses. So yeah please believe the victims.
This is one of those cases where, even if in some bizzare world where maybe his version of events is the correct one, he still had multiple affairs with very young women including his children’s babysitter. So he’s still a scumbag. The question is whether he’s also a depraved rapist and monster. Which, I’m sorry, but when there’s multiple people making allegations that form a pattern of behaviour, and there’s little to no financial incentive involved, and the behaviour he’s admitting to is suspect anyway…
Yeah, I noticed he didn't DENY that any of these sexual encounters happened; apparently, his only regret was that he wasn't nicer to the women he assaulted
Of all the fanciful stories Neil has written, this one was his least believable. Seems like nothing but vague damage control. Thanks for sharing the post and your commentary!
Never forget: Neil Gaiman was raised by two high-level Scientologist parents. Whether he actually belongs to that organization or not, he is using a lot of techniques out of their playbook.
Short, cold, lacking empathy, no apologies and no accountability. His response comes across as extremely arrogant too, especially since he kept his devoted fans waiting in the dark for almost three quarters of a year. He's only bothered to finally speak when this whole thing was made more widely known in the Vulture article. That and this have finally cemented that I've wasted years of my life supporting a predator. I can't read any truly beloved works of his anymore, however much you can separate them from the artist.
“Lacking empathy”? Why - if his version of what happened is true and the women are exaggerating, embellishing, and manufacturing horrible details to paint him in the worst possible way - why should he go out of his way to apologize or show empathy to people who are lying about him? I’m not a fan of his. I have no desire to automatically defend him or doubt these women. After reading the Vulture piece and reading his statement, though… his account seems more plausible.
I love what you said about being respectful in these conversations. My initial thoughts are that it’s a red flag when someone apologies, but claims they didn’t do anything wrong. If he says he did nothing wrong, why is he apologizing? Because an apology is good for his image. If he truly felt remorse, he would admit his shortcomings. Yet his apology didn’t come from a place of remorse, he denied it yet still “apologized” to do some damage control. Also one party cannot decide something was consensual for both parties. He can only decide that for himself. The other party has to agree for it to be considered consensual, and clearly the victims don’t agree with his statement. Therefore it wasn’t consensual. I hope everyone here is taking care of themselves. Drink water, eat, sleep. And let’s continue to love and believe victims as we navigate this community together each day.
I don't know his relationship in detail with those girls and neither does anyone here. Honestly we're just taking the sides of the victims as you call it. I wouldn't call it that since this is such a common occurrence between women and rich men. You will never hear a woman calling out a poor man. I'm not defending Gaiman but there are no victims here. When a girl purposely choose to date a man for years it's hard for me to side with the women. And you don't know what really went down. I see this case as a spurn lover's revenge, and revealing dirty laundry.
@@zodlord5669 I don’t know if you need this pointed out to you, but the reason you don’t hear about it happening with poor people is that they’re not public figures. The news isn’t going to report on it. The idea that no accusations are made against working class people is ludicrous on its face.
Did you see the Master pod cast? It's about this and shows texts from him to them and back and forth in which they admit to concenting. He is a perve, but they need to be accountable too is all, as sadly perving is legal. lol. Bella L
I just feel heartbroken for these women, and I can’t imagine what it’s like to have a man you call your abuser stand before everyone to say he’s not perfect and he’s sorry and he wants to be better…. but also that he’s done nothing non consensual and their stories are full of lies. I’m not one of the victims so I can’t speak for them, but for me the implied accountability but no actual accountability would drive me mad.
I feel like keeping the text messages is at the very least evidence that he felt he would need evidence to counter claims his victims might make about him at a future date. The rest seems pretty standard: the kind of vaguely angry, vaguely guilty, vaguely defiant message that sounds like a lawyer and a pr person helped him write. I’ll choose to believe the women and hope everyone has their day in court.
I keep all personal text messages, unless I lose them somehow before I back them up. I assume I'm not the only one. This is not to defend Gaiman. I'm just saying people who keep text messages aren't necessarily doing it specifically to be able to counter claims made against them.
I think you're stretching it. Tons of private people post pictures of their kids and family gathering. We all do that, doesn't mean I'm not private about my affairs.
@@zodlord5669 I don’t post my children’s photos online, so I don’t think I’m stretching it. He is not a private person and never has been. He just wishes he never got caught. If what is written about his son being present during the events described in the article is true - I hope the kid gets the support and professional help he needs to process it.
And he was very prolific poster and iteracted with fans a lot on Tumblr for years. Some of his fans only found out about the initial allegations from the summer because they noticed he had gone silent and started asking what was going on
I thought his response was awful. He was accused of terrible things, things that even involved his child and his response was "Some of those things happened, but it was consensual." He also seems to think the women are mad at him because they wanted a loving relationship and he just wanted sex. It ignores the criminal aspects of what hes being accused of entirely. Hes going to work on himself? He didnt get caught saying a racial slur, hes accused of rape, humilliatiing a woman sexually and involving his son it. Its very telling his son os never brought up in his response. You would think he would clearly come out and say "I have never abused my son or involved him in anyrhing inappropriate" but he didnt. He said sorry and hopes we move on. There is no moving on from this. I want evidence, from both sides. I want a police investigation and them to find out who did what. Hes lost my trust because what he's accused of is beyond vile, and I don't ever want to risk supporting him in any way in the off chance any of it is true.
@@collectingmemoriesyt the “working on himself” line was something he said almost verbatim to one of his victims, from what I remember from the Vulture article. That raised alarm bells for me, because firstly, he’s just repeating empty words and secondly, how long does he think it takes to work on himself in that area?
Hearing you read this letter from Gaiman just made it all the more clear that this was a pat, trite, meaningless, piece of lawyer speak in order to deflect from what happened to those (young!!) women and once more try to silence them with his words. It is so difficult to lose respect for two people (because Amanda is just as complicit in this abuse as he is) so quickly, especially as the mask of “I’m a feminist!!” and “believe all women!!!” has been so quickly ripped away by the cold hard truth of the fact that sometimes, monsters can look just like you and me.
I’m not so sure about Amanda’s complicity anymore, people will gaslight themselves so hard when finding out their partner is a horrible person and I’ml sure he gaslit her plenty about it too, possibly right up until she had irrefutable proof from the nanny that he was awful. She may have been complicit but I sincerely doubt it was intentional.
I initially fell for his “apology”. Then I read the Vogue article thoroughly and realised he’s using the same tactics in this “apology” that he used on his victims to try and hush them up. Now I think he’s just trying to gaslight us all.
I'm glad that you're adding your voice to the commentary. Agenda free and expressing the disappointment, grief and bewilderment of fans, and not blaming the women. As for Neil - for an intelligent man, he's suddenly apparently a big dum dum when it comes to the nuances of consent, coercive control, boundaries and abuses of power.
@@ashtoreh Pretending to be an idiot when they're caught is a part of a lot of men's playbooks. The move is called "The Bumbler": In this case, "I'm a literary genius who understands human nature, but I had no idea I was causing obvious harm!"
I find it interesting that he admits to treating these women poorly, even if he denies the allegations. He knows he was wrong on some level, though his status (or believing his own lies) has warped his perception of what truly happened. Or is this just a tactic to get people to believe him? I personally believe the women who have come forward. End of story.
I wish this article would speak more about the power abuse in terms of labour laws from both Neil and Amanda. The podcast also barely mentions it. These women were never, ever legally employed and paid in full for their work as nannies. In fact, in the podcast one of the victims mentions having to constantly remind them that she wasn’t paid for her babysitting hours. It’s disgusting to use your fan base as a free or cheap labour. There are just so many layers of power abuse in this story no matter how you look.
I think it's also very telling that targets for abuse who could be gaslighted and hushed was the main motive for their "employment". Wealthy, educated people would only entrust their child's care if that was the main objective with qualified, referenced, experienced nannies and contract them to do their job for a salary. They would not be pulling young, unqualified, homeless women off sleeping on the beaches to live in with them as on a promise of payment, and in their first assignment, the child was not even there.
@@clare3776 Exactly. Normal celebs are very careful with people they employ and prefer everything to be official, not to mention that they usually do not post their children's photos on social media and sign agreements with nannies so they also do not post anything. It's just elementary safety protocols when you're a public figure.
It’s a super hard situation to absorb. It’s hard to imagine a time when i won’t look at his books with a sense of revulsion. Whether or not there are “legal” crimes…there’s a lesson here for any men who achieve high levels of fame.
I imagine he has lawyers, agents, and publishers who encouraged silence hoping that social media would do the work of supporting him and condemning the accusers.
Translation: his lawyers read all the texts and decided nothing is specific and strong enough to get him convicted, so he‘s free to deny. Absolutely pathetic.
My take aways from his missive: (1) He sure knows how to appropriate victim language. (2) It is clear that he is exhibiting narcissistic behavior. (3) He is, at best, delusional about the alleged abuse, which is not a defense. (4) It remains a red flag, that for all his wealth, he (and Amanda Palmer for that matter), for all intents and purposes, did not pay someone to watch after their child. Baring all other alleged victims, they really put their "nanny" through the ringer and set up a pattern of abuse that is unforgivable.
This is too simplistic, imo. I lie too often myself(to myself, as well as others) in big and small ways, and i think most of us do, whether we admit it or not. I also know women who've lied about abuse, and these women have left me looking side-eyed at allegations like those w Neil's accusers. I don't trust myself to stay honest, let alone anyone else. The minute that I want to point fingers, I've got a hundred more pointing back at me.
@@pafu_pafu why should it be “believe women” instead of “weigh all the evidence and see what appears likely to be true”. And in this case, there seems to be more evidence on the side of the accusers, than on Niels side
At the very, very, VERY best, what I would want to hear is, "In examining my conscience, I don't think I did anything wrong, but I am now working with a therapist to examine how my actions (may) have contributed to the situation." If there are current court charges pending (I'm not following the situation closely enough to know) then I would want him to say, "In examining my conscience, etc, but now we need to let the courts do their job." Because what he wrote sounds too much like someone who knows how to say the right words, and it does not in ANY way restore trust. At the very, VERY best, he unconsciously abused his power - and if he had any shred of integrity, he'd own up to that. But it sounds like it was so much worse. So Neil, just shut up. Get therapy.
as you say what we think doesnt matter: but my two cents. Like many men, i think he really did not see the damage he was causing, he just went on getting what he wanted and damn everyone else; he didnt care about his wife or his son, so why would he care about people he´d just met. blinded by his own sense of self-importance he destroyed people´s lives, because no one was more important, no one was even worth of consideration other than himself. Deplorable stuff. I'm sorry for his heartbroken fans, you can still like his writing, even if he is a shitty person; i like the music of many a shitty human musician. maybe dont give him money though, you can always find a free way to get books.
I’d be more inclined he was ignorant of it if the survivors didn’t literally say “no” and he went on anyway. I think there’s room for this argument in some cases bc we’re bad at teaching that an absence of no doesn’t mean yes, but in this case there were nos!
Gaiman's an excellent writer. He knows when to be specific and when to be vague, and being vague was definitely the approach here. He can say "some things didn't happen" even if "some things" was only one or two things among the many details in the statements about his actions. He can say "those messages read now as" and not convey what he was actually feeling about them at the time. Even if we accept his statement as generally true, he doesn't address some of the larger issues at hand. Consent is important (and still questionable at best) but there's also issues of an abusive power dynamic of having sex with someone who works for you, or pressuring fans into sexual acts. It's nice that he admits that he was "emotionally unavailable" and all, but not accepting that there was abuse is failing to acknowledge the bulk of the accusations. I'd like to be convinced by his statement. I think I wanted him to turn my head around about this whole thing. But I also am a writer (not nearly as skilled as he), and I recognize the tactics he's employing here. He's able to sound sincere without actually saying much that he's sincere about. I honestly thought he would do better.
Context: I have not listened to the podcast and my knowledge of its contents are second hand but I did read yesterday's Vulture article all the way through and Gaiman's blog post earlier. I have a hard time buying it. It seems a little weird to me bc the weight of the accusations would be a lot to process, but it feels like this statement was at the ready to be deployed. One part of me wants to find the vagueness suspicious, but another part of me does get that there may be some legal reasons not to get into that. In either case, I can't help but feel that we're only getting it now bc the recent article is worse than the podcast, to my understanding (eg the stuff where his son was present). Had it been posted before the article, it would've been more believable at the time (mistakes and irresponsibility happen w kinky sex sometimes, granted I only heard abt that second hand at the time), but with the article, I don't think it would've mattered when he posted it. Now I'm left wondering if we're going to hear more in the coming weeks
What bothers me about the articles was mention that the women had all signed NDA’s. Then later they went to him for money, and he did pay a few of them off. Then all of a sudden, it all comes out. (I listened to the podcast, the Vulture article is paywalled and I refuse to give them money or sign up.) The practical side of my mind wonders if they decided to tell their stories despite the NDA’s, and that if his lawyers sued them for breach of contract, that would be iron clad admission of guilt? Am I being too cynical here? (And when an employer insists on an NDA, why would that include a relationship? That would set off my red flags immediately, no matter who it was. It would make sense if they were in earshot of him working, but babysitting? WTF?) I can’t get past the lack of charges being filed. The whole thing stinks of blackmail and revenge and the worst of human behavior dragged into the light for clicks and a pay off. If he did take advantage, it will end in court. Until then, it’s wait and see….though I won’t be buying anymore of his books on principle. Edited to add: I just read his blog post. Lots of red flags waving in there. He sounds delusional, anyone else catch that?
@ Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Yeah, definitely weird tone the more you read it. To me it sounded like he “removed” himself from the situations if that makes sense.
I don’t post my children’s photos online, so I don’t think I’m stretching it. He is not a private person and never has been. He just wishes he never got caught. If what is written about his son being present during the events described in the article is true - I hope the kid gets the support and professional help he needs to process it.
If there are texts messages that prove consensus it's important to show them, because I think it's becoming crucial to distinguish between abuse, rape, factual crimes, and treating poorly other individuals. Not everything it's equal to everything and right now we should be very careful with this new concept of destroying a person over allegations. That said, there are a lot of people right now that are accusing him of criminal behaviour, and it's really hard to believe that so many women are mistaking "emotional unavailability" with physical abuse. Let's see where this goes.
This is the most balanced take I’ve read about the subject. And I’ve never read a single one of his books, the way he was sold to the audiences always seemed pretentious and cocky to me, so I’ve never liked the guy but as you say you can’t lump everything together, there are clear differences between each situation you wisely pointed out. So again thank you for being so mature about this in your comment.
Gaiman is a storyteller. A good storyteller. Everything that is him has contributed to his talent and skill. The same can be said about anyone: Surgeon, teacher, lawyer, medical doctor, engineer, car mechanic, etc. He is a human being just like us. Some, but I doubt most, would change their effective and good lawyers, medical doctors, teachers, etc. if they knew about their abysmal personal lives. Sandman is a brilliant comic. When I read it as it was coming out I knew nothing about Gaiman. It didn't matter. The stories were not only entertaining, but enchanting, real, and interesting. They still are and always will be. This crisis of conscience among some readers makes me shake my head.
Sadly to me his response felt like AI written through the parameters of recommended legal advice, and as it ended I realised my face had contorted into a kind of icky wince. Hell, the guy maybe innocent of some or even all of these allegations, but the response was empty of everything but meh.
definitely appreciate you pointing out that this whole thing is not about us fans. i've seen some people being super dramatic about this and making it about them, but this isn't about the fans. and it's disrespectful to the women who are coming forward to try to pretend that it is. it's understandable that this is a blow to the fans and that the fans need time to process, but people making that the focus of the whole thing isn't great. so thank you for not doing that! 👍🏻 on the topic of his response, i was completely unimpressed. it was a nonapology meant to do damage control. and even if all of the relations he had with these women were consensual (doubtful), he didn't even acknowledge whether or not he'd been taking advantage of vulnerable women. according to the article, the women who have come forward were either fans or employed by him, which shows a gross pattern of knowingly and purposefully putting women in a position where he would have power over them and could coerce them. he (conveniently) failed to address that aspect at all.
Thank you - I really wanted to convey that through my videos. I’m not into shock or dramatics. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Whenever something like this happens, we really have to ask ourselves: what benefit is there? What risks are being taken? The only response this man can make to attempt to maintain his status is, “actually no.” Meanwhile the people who came forward had absolutely nothing to gain by doing so and quite a bit to lose, as anybody who makes accusations against the powerful and beloved does. Their stories are too specific, too similar, and too numerous to ignore or explain away.
I know, right? And later they want to winge when they were great with it at the time. He opened some childhood trauma and they need to handle that and stop blaming him. Yes he is a perve but they were down and they need to be accountable. Bella L
I think what happens with guys like Neil is that they go from being some regular nobody and they get fame, influence and money and it goes straight to their egos. They’re not grounded enough to handle it. In their mind, and you see this pattern over and over, they were not doing anything wrong for years they’re just entitled to their adoring fans, sex with pretty people etc because they kind of believe their own legend. Of course the pretty babysitter/intern/whomever wanted to have sex with them, they’re famous and super talented! All the while they completely ignore the power imbalance, entitlement, consent etc because they’re used to being adored, getting their way, being rich and influential… right up until reality comes calling. I don’t reflexively believe every accusation against a celeb, i look at each case and judge accordingly. Usually though, where there smoke there’s fire and there is … rather a lot of smoke curling around Gaiman. They’ll investigate and it’s likely not going to be pretty.
Yeh, if he didn't do it, all he had to say was, "I didn't do this." This one is straight out of something from the behaviour panel. There are so many language tells in this. He's not being honest - that's all there is to it.
I agree with you that he should of addressed this in July. I think many people look at it as a he said/she said topic. I just wish victims of these acts would address them right away. I have other thoughts but i won't go into them here. I think it's good that you discussed this situation.
Traumatized people aren't always ready to go to the police immediately, or ever, because the police often re-traumatize them, blames them for their assaults, and then tell them there isn't enough evidence to prosecute their attacker. One of these women DID get the police involved, only for Amanda Palmer ( his then-wife) to deny everything when they spoke to her.
To be fair, I do have texts from years ago (probably). Maybe he's talking about Scarlett texting him that it was "consensual" after he called dibs on being the victim in the situation. That part broke my heart cause I can imagine how allowing yourself to be gaslighted into thinking you actually wanted it can seem a better choice than facing the reality of what has been done to you.
In legal situations lawyers will tell you to often say nothing no matter the issue even if it's true or not. My guess is he thought it would go away as well.
Too late in my opinion. It’s definitely damage control and it’s honestly hard for me to believe a word of it. It seems like the same crap we always hear from men. He of course has a right to say what he wants and defend himself and give his side of the story but yeah….his statement somehow left me feeling more icky
I’m going with the presumption of innocence. If there was anything illegal or unlawful done, then take it to the proper authorities and have them investigate the allegations to see what the conclusions are. The court of public opinion is not anywhere near an actual court.
Just like with Manson a few years back. These girls know what they are in for and stay then later have issues due to unresolved childhood trauma and wanna blame the perve they chose to play with. It is not girl power and it needs to stop. The master podcast shows their texts, check it out, it's interesting, btw. Bella L
It came from Neil but I'll bet a lawyer reviewed it first. And it's important to remember that as the people's court, we only see what's being done publicly, there ay be actions taken in private we know nothing about (an maybe it's not for us to know at this time tbh). But I agree that it is important to hear his side as well as the alleged victim's side before making any final conclusions.
Biggest thing jumping out to me is, he frames his truth as THE truth. I feel as if he were truly remorseful and trying to be objective, he'd frame his truth as that - HIS truth, HIS perspective on things. Yet, he maintains his claims of innocence without doing that; without allowing for the possibility that his experience in the alleged events were at all different than those leveling the allegations. It's all Neil-centric, which is the reddest and biggest of flags in my experience.
I think he's a perve but it's legal and they played with him for their reasons, and now that their childhood trauma woke up they wanna blame him, no. Heal that girl. Bella L
While I like to believe in the "Innocent until proven guilty" idea, there are definitely some red flags here. First, this is the same guy who has said "Believe the victim", so why shouldn't we here? Secondly, yes, the text messages. That comes across as "Ok, I'm gonna get in trouble for this, let me keep these (probably edited) messages to strengthen my case when the time comes.". Here, he's banking on the women NOT keeping the original messages to counter his version. Finally, the confession without a confession. "I'm not perfect. I was self-focused, careless with people's hearts and feelings, caught up in my own story, I'll work on myself to be better..." When you say these things, it just comes off as a guy who knows he F'd up and has a problem. So, I don't think this statement helps him. In fact, it may come back to bite him in the butt. Believe the victim, right Neil? On THAT, we agree.
On a side note, we have to have a separate discussion about the podcast, "Master" which came out before the Vulture article. It provides new and sometimes conflicting details in the story that make the whole thing a bit more complicated. There's audio from his many Wattsapp convos with Scarlett and more context from Neil and the women themselves.
First, it is S.A. He is from a generation that was taught that you try to have sex with everything that has a hole, and that it's not rape unless she's screaming bloody murder or trying to run away from you. He MIGHT not have realized, he MIGHT have been deluding himself that she/they consented, NOW he has been shown the truth of it. And he is still trying to say it was consenting.
He said no violation happened… he employed and housed someone and coerced her into a sexual relationship. That in itself is a violation!!! That is an abuse of power and the fact he crossed lines when she said no is still wrong even if we take out the employment relationship out of the equation. But if we do take the employment into account if she didn’t acquiesce to his desires he could throw her out without warning. How can there be normal levels of consent there? I think he’s even WORSE than Joss Whedon given the “you rely on me for not only a job but also a place to live.”
Greetings from the Czech Republic! Sandman was a reason to immerse myself in English in the 90s! And who better to help me do that than a storyteller like Neil Gaiman? Neverwhere was another great epiphany. I read the other books with gusto, but they were getting repetitive. I only found out about the whole scandal today. It makes me sad, but I'll keep the books and want to return to Sandman fairly soon. I converted to the Orthodox Church less than four years ago, and that helps a lot in that sense: is Gaiman a sinner? Sure, we all are. No living person is my role model. That's what saints are for. I prayed today for Neil to come to true repentance. What he posted today is truly unconvincing. Did he say to Chat GPT "Write a damage control text"?
@@M-J Thank you. :-) I would like to add something personal to the topic. First: I am a below-average Czech writer. A few of my shorter prose pieces probably have some overlap and depth. And thats all. My Conan book, where I combine Howard and Lovecraft's mythology, is not really good, but it has some enthusiastic fans, which is cute. I don't feel bad that I've failed as a writer. I have lots of ideas, but dedication and talent have never been enough. Second: My sexuality involves various perverse ideations. I've never harmed anyone and never had non-consensual sex, and I've never realized the worst fantasies. But let's say I had more talent and dedication and would have succeeded. (Besides, I would also have to write in English...). I'd have hordes of fans, and lots of money, and I'd start to feel invulnerable. What would that do to me? Wouldn't I become the same monster that Gaiman became? I can't know, of course, but I certainly can't rule it out. In Orthodoxy, we are taught not to judge others and to repent of our own sins. When I see how ultra-right commentators in particular are now enjoying "righteous indignation," I wonder: Just because someone does worse things than you doesn't make you better...
I always asked myself how some writers can bring such intense and dark stuff to life without being entangled in their universe as a protagonist (or as the creator even as a god?) somehow. Sure there is a dark side in every single one of us, but I guess most of us try to keep this locked in (even hidden from ourselves) because we are ashamed or shocked of our own feelings towards various things sometimes. For people with narcisstic or psychopathic features letting their deepest, darkest thoughts, their inner self, flow to paper and keep it hidden in plain sight might be the thrill they need keep themselves satisfied. But of course this is not necessarily transformable to every writer of dark lyric and poetry.
@M-J oh look it up, his parent were very high up..until the next guy took over the cult... NG was even an auditor. So he has mad skills for brainwashing. No doubt he was tortured as a child. Look at all the other Hollywood cases of boys raised in that cukt with sexual deviations and crimes.
I still have AIM conversations from the 90s, so him keeping the texts isn’t unbelievable to me. It may be those relationships meant enough to him to keep them. BUT even if his view is that he didn’t do anything wrong, it doesn’t invalidate the women’s experiences or allegations. Memories can be distorted over time, we can convince ourselves of things if we really want to as a coping mechanism. So…yea. The fact the women had those experiences, from their point of view, and felt they had to come out about them, is enough for me to believe he’s not innocent.
Belated and full of vague regrets and intentions to do better and he shows resentment noncon or not it is quite clear he abused his power over much younger women in some way and involving a child in sexual play is criminal if true
I watched yesterday's vid, but didn't comment, because I couldn't read the article due to my monthly limit having been hit...which is weird bc I don't know why I would have read anything else this month...I only get my news via other people. Lol. Anyway, I think that it's okay to separate the work from the artist, as you decided to do in that one. I also think it's okay to wait until there's undeniable proof that he's done these things, before making any official stance. I'm not saying I don't believe the accusers, and it's not a very big percentage, but researchers estimate that between 4 & 10% of S.A. accusations are false. OH, UPDATE: In the middle of writing this, I figured out how to read the article. I pasted the link into Speechify and it bypassed the paywall, lol. I'm listening to myself read the article now. 😂If anyone else doesn't want to pay, but wants to read the article (and doesn't have a paid Speechify account), they should Google 12ft ladder io. 😉
He’s covering his tracks - on one note I do have text messages from years ago as I have the same number - once read they just fall down the thread and live in the cloud I think .
That reply shows zero willingness to even entertain the possibility that he could have done something wrong. I firmly believe that all the sex I have had was consensual and happened when people could freely give or revoke consent. But if someone came forward claiming otherwise I would be wiling to at least examine the possibility that things looked different from their perspective or that there were factors present that affected their ability to freely give or revoke consent that I was unaware of. If multiple people accused me? I would be taking a damn hard look at myself to see where things had gone wrong. Even if I felt I hadn't violated their consent I would know that *something* about how I was going about it was in need of serious work. This goes double for relationships where kink or bdsm were involved. "Everything was consensual and good and the parts that can't be explained away by that never happened." Is at best damage control, and at worst his inability to see the reality of what happened.
First off, I've never read/watched a single Neil Gaimen work, so this is unbiased. I just want to say, as someone who is autistic/ADHD/neurodivergent (and female in case that matters), I have had many experiences where I am in a relationship with someone (romantic and platonic) and I will think everything is great, rainbows and butterflies, when suddenly I get blocked and cut off and accused of things I have no memory of doing. At first I thought the other person must be crazy. But it happened so much, I started to realize the problem must be me. After being diagnosed with autism and ADHD I've come to realize that people really do interpret things wildly different and have different communication styles, to the point it's like we are speaking different languages. The entire time I had no idea. As I started to notice the pattern, I am more and more careful and clarify everything a hundred times, and I STILL run into this issue to the point where I want to just give up on having a relationship I'm not excusing Neil Gaimen. But as someone who has had wild accusations thrown at them, and been completely clueless, I hate to say it but I can kind of see how it could happened. I don't know. He honestly could be 100% a monster. We will never know. I tend to believe the victims first and foremost but based on my own experiences I have a small twinge of empathy when I read his letter. He could be totally lying but it's similar to messages I've written to people in earnest And again, I'm not a fan, I don't even know why I'm here lol
I know what that feels like too, that's why the allegations made me aprehensive at first. It was a pretty intense article tho. I think he'll need a little more than that vague defense.
I’ll preface this by mentioning that I’m also a woman with ADHD and autism. Whether he believes it was consensual or not, he’s a wealthy, powerful man in his 60s with a pattern of pursuing women in their 20s. He’d already admitted (via his publicist) to having a “sexual relationship” with the nanny and claimed it was fully consensual. Again, she was in her 20s, he was in his 60s, and he was her employer. He got into a bath with her naked on her first day of working as a caregiver for his son. How consensual can that be really? There was a definite power imbalance.
I haven't read the article or listened to the podcast. I just came to your channel and saw that this video was up. This denial sounds like a generic PR message. It's very bland. It reminds me of Clinton wagging his finger at me when I was nine, lying about manipulating a 19-year-old. I don't know that I would except anything else at this point though.
I disagree. I fully believe he and he alone wrote that message and I genuinely think he thinks he hasn’t done anything wrong. If I were to confront a certain person in my life about awful shit they’ve done to me, I’m 90% sure their response would be extremely similar to what he said in that document
@@apollo1493 Oh, I agree that he believes he's innocent and that he's the victim here. In situations like this, that's part of the problem. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. It feels like a well worn statement written by many men who have done many wrongs.
Were there rape allegations in July? i really wanna give everyone give everyone in this situation a fair shake, including Gaiman . i hate to say it but when reading the accusations , I honestly read it with skepticism and of course i don't want to victim blame . it just that some of these things are so disgusting and so strange and the fact that all these gross details take precedence in the story over the actual rape allegations is what bothers me. if she really did all those things id want more information on why she felt she needed to do those things and why was more than one incident ? I cant say that there is a human on this earth that could make me lick shit, let alone return for seconds , but hey thats just me. if it turns out he raped someone , then this is a criminal case and yes they should fry him. i don't feel like keeping text messages is stranger than licking shit, i mean if thats on the table why would keeping text messages be strange. idk something about rape allegations and shit just reeks of dishonesty to me . Maybe its the whole Amber Turd thing that happened thats still in my subconscious. Again if he did any of the illegal stuff fry him, but its not my place to judge someone on their fetishes between another consenting adult. i prefer this be handle in court and not in the court of public opinion but i guess thats my opinion
Check the master pod cast it shows texts between them. This is so much like the Manson stuff. Girls crying whatever after later they have a problem when they were fine at the time is not okay. Sorry. Would I mess with a bro like him or Manson, no way, but they did so they need to stop winging after the fact. Bella L
Had no CLUE who this author was at all till I was listening to Olly’s channel & he mentioned IF we wanted to hear about “whoever” is really all I got / that we should come to your channel. OK, I’ve done some reading up on this author & he’s paying off the baby sitter in a non-disclosure settlement. Making monthly payments to her of $9,000.00+ & IF this is true = SOMETHING happened he doesn’t want put out there!! SAD Situation FOR VICTIMS INVOLVED & some of his fans. I did order the book about when you were at the beach & read 1 of his books you mentioned. I’m just curious now.,🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️ I still think there’s 2 sides to every story. Hope this is over for him & hope the victims eventually through therapy / meditation / prayer eventually can get on with life. Thank You for these last few videos. I subscribed & 👍.
I posted this on your other video about this, but feel actually it would have been more appropriate here( I am late to the non-party on this one). I don't agree with you that this is just about Neil and the survivors, although I understand that stance, but for me, as I said in my previous message , it's about the scale of the harm, on different levels (quote from post over on other vt) .How many people's faith, love and trust he has abused. Whether it was impressionable young female fans, blindsided by his charm and fame , to the millions of people who took him into their heart as one of" theirs", built memories and milestones around his books (and edit - your feelings are valid, too) , who now have to go through this grieving process, this feeling of disillusionment. To his kids. To his co-workers.....it just goes on and on. His response made no sense to me and put the final nail in the coffin. And as an edit, I also agree that for this to be such a long considered response, it is really poor - especially considering his skill as a writer. He didn't deny anything out rightly. On one hand he claimed people were spreading misinformation, and on the other, he excused his previous silence as "respecting people telling their story". Why would you respect someone lying about you if that's what they were doing? He then claims all the relationships were happy and positive, but then admits to being emotionally unavailable whilst sexually available in those relationships, careless with their feelings, selfish and "wrapped in his own story". How can he claim to have had happy, positive relationships under those circumstances? What story was he telling himself even then? He admits to acting in ways that would incite abuse, "careless, with people's hearts and feelings" "Self-focused" and he paid women money to recompense them for their pain, but then doesn't accept there was any abuse - maybe he never did. It's over - in so many ways, and it's definitely over for him. But how many hearts have broken? It's abominable, all of it,
Yours is the 2nd UA-cam video I’ve watched about this topic. I haven’t read or heard anything about any specific allegations. Have just seen thumbnails come up from time to time. I’m of the believe woman & believe men persuasion. I’m also of the people believe what works best for them persuasion. As far as him waiting before he responds, so what. I don’t think that means anything either way. If someone accused me of sexual assault I’d be pissed. It would probably take a while before I could respond from anything besides anger. Next I’d try to communicate with my accuser directly to try and figure out what was going on. I’d only respond publicly if I felt like I had to. As far as him keeping old messages… he’s a rich and famous man. That’s probably standard operating procedure for the rich and famous. I have no idea if he’s guilty of whatever. I generally assume that some rich and powerful people are doing suspect 💩 all the time, and that we only hear about it when some other rich and powerful person doesn’t get the contract or deal they wanted and so conveniently drum up dirt. Regardless of if it’s real or not. I’m certain that there are lines of willing women waiting to have a chance with him just because he’s rich and famous. And then some because they like his books. That’s unhealthy. Any rich and powerful person is going to be surrounded by sexually willing sycophants. That’s got to be weird. That has to skew your perception a bit. I’m not saying that, that justifies anything. But to think it’s not a factor… I also understand that the difference between physical intimacy and abuse isn’t as cut and dry as everyone would like to think. I’m a recovering narcissist. Anyone who dated me in my late teens and early twenties wasn’t making the best life choices. Did I intentionally disregard anyone’s wishes or abuse anyone? No. Was I bad for people emotionally & virally? Absolutely. Is dating people when you’re not emotionally healthy/mature abusive? Maybe. But that’s most people. Who wouldn’t be psychologically broken after being married to and emotionally broken by Amanda Palmer? Even though she came with red flairs instead of red flags. The only thing that I know for sure is that men who want to be happy in the future should never let themselves be alone with a woman that they’re not married to or blood related to. Ever. Especially if that man is rich and famous.
I’m more informed now. Yeah, it sounds creepy. I’m still not sure what exactly to think about it. I don’t know how we can 100% informed or be 100% unbiased. Wealth & power must do a number on people’s minds. Maybe equal and opposite to the effects of poverty & fear. I’m not excusing bad behavior. Just trying to understand how these things happen. How much of a wealthy man’s normal is coercion from the perspective of the poor and vulnerable. And how much of a vulnerable woman’s agency can be consent? If she says that she’s all on board in the moment, how much in her right mind is she? I’m trying to imagine that all sides are trying to be honest from their current perspectives. Not trying to defend him, just trying to understand. What kind of weirdo could I turn into given that much fame and attention. Not saying that I would but I have to wonder. And who would come out of the woodwork if I became rich and famous? I don’t think that I’m a villain but I know that have behaved badly. Curious about what more comes to light from all sides. After reviewing more content I also find it strange how many people blabber on like they are saints. Especially men. I tend to think that if a man thinks that he has never been the bad guy A) he has always been a simp, B) he’s problematic and doesn’t recognize it, C) he’s a virgin, D) he’s actively a predator. Or a combination of all of the above. The main reason I started to fix my narcissistic behavior is because it was boring. When a guy is a shadow self centered prick, women flock to him. Yeah it’s gross but it’s absolutely true. A tall rich famous man is going to have more access to willing women than the average Chad. So that inherently is going to skew his perception of women and the world over time. He’d have to actively fight against it. Intellectually. Again not trying to justify his actions or the situation. Just trying to understand. Maybe there is no possibility of consent at that level. Maybe everything is cohesion from a certain hight.
Ugh what a mess. To answer your question, I looked at my phone, the messages I have on there are over a decade old. Granted there’s nothing either incriminating or exculpatory in there, it’s just laziness. Much as I listen to this and think it sounds like a reasonable (if late) response. And much as I look at the fact that initial criminal investigations were dropped. The number of women that have come forward seems to point to a pattern of behaviour and really isn’t something that you can overlook. Because best case scenario in this for Neil Gaiman: people accept he was a complete asshole to women on a huge scale. Worst case: well, it’s a lot worse. Thanks for talking it out MJ 🙂
Like a weasel poking its head out of a hole in the ground. And not a defense but if you sign with a major law firm you agree to archive all your texts and emails. I imagine he's been having a lot of lawyer conversations about those exchanges. The response has a couple of lawyerly turns of phrase in there.
I described a sexual situation I was in to a friend. I believed it was dubious consent my frined was adament it was assault. He may believe it was fully consensual but his partners memories may differ especially if there was hesitation that they did not voice or did not strongly put word to in case they weren't listened to. I haven't read the accusations against him but with the above in mind that statement was just him trying to excuse himself and he needs to do better.
Oh MJ. I have been thinking about this recently. This matter is very difficult to know who to believe. As we CAN'T just take the word of either party, especially if there's NO proof. If these events happened but there's no proof, we are ONLY left with the word of either part, THEN we can ONLY accept either parties word as our form of the truth, WITHOUT physical proof. It's a case of he said, she said but there's no evidence, but you have to take my word for it. If EITHER party provided physical proof, like texts, video, pictures or voice recordings, then the truth would come out, for good or bad. I have been struggling to know what do to with my Neil Gaiman books. As I'm not a big fan but a someone that reads his stuff from time to time. I fall in the middle of this. I want to believe him but i keep remembering people from the past, where they seemed perfect in the public eye but in private was a different matter. But try to remember this, until we have proof, we can't form judgement.
The master pod cast shows texts from both parties and after seeing those, I feel he is a perve but that they made him feel it was fine and that they were more than down, and they need to be accountable. Sadly perving is legal. These girls are not being girl power here at all. Bella L
The master pod cast shows texts of the girls saying how great their time was with him after the issues, so to him they were willing. I feel he is a perve, but it's legal. If a bro, a boss, any man invited me into a bath hours after meeting, I'd so be outa there! That, dearies, is girl power! Seriously and women need to be accountable rather than blaming the perves to which they are drawn clearly due to unhealed childhood trauma. Sorry but this needs to be paid attention to in order to help these women. He is guilty of being a perve, not making anyone do anything, and that isn't legal. I suggest no one read this try dating him. LMAO. That's all. And if you have trauma, get that healed. Bella L
I am totally with you on this. Even if I was a world famous author who somehow got the nerve to invite a female employee I just met to get naked in an outdoor bathtub at my property I’d be completely shocked if she is not offended by it, let alone agreeing to it…Neil is definitely a nasty pervert which breaks my heart because I’ve been a fan of his work for more than 20 years. However the lady is an adult and she let him had his way with her so you can’t say he raped her. What Neil did wasn’t a crime but it’s disgusting nonetheless. He’d no longer have my respect no matter how good of a writer he is.
If i were a puplic fogure i would have every text message logged. I am not a public figure and i still have most of the cell phones ive ever owned, that have all my text meassages. This is not a message in defense of Neil, i mean come on, 8 accusors. Sheesh. Im just saying Its just not that strange to have most if not all of past text meassages from 20/25 years ago when texting was invented. L
Do you remember when Neil said that we should believe the victims?
2018
That's the exact problem! The articles read like it's a hit piece and I know that rich and influential men sometimes get wrongly accused. But after his "male feminist" stance, he now looks like a huge hypocrite.
"Believe all women...except those women over there!"🙄😡
My thoughts exactly… trying to prove that actually you’re an ally to victims by calling SA survivors liars is definitely a choice.
I know, right? Ain't that funny now, though?
He was in a position of power over these women. They didn't want to lose their jobs, home, whatever. That takes consent out of the equation.
It was a nonopology, full of gas lighting.
It would be like your landlord or boss insisting you do what they want sexually. It’s wrong. It’s abuse of power.
"I broke some hearts, I guess."
"I never did it."
"I don't remember any of it."
"I'm trying to do better!"
"I never use social media anyway."
That would make for a good song I think.
@@M-J you saying he needs a ukelele?
@@myepictbr6968He'll probably plagiarize the "Ukulele Lady"! (Whose name escapes me atm...)
Believe the victims! Coming from someone who has worked with victims as a professional, it is a rarity for a woman to lie about such a thing. These women need so much courage to come forward. The guilt and the shame they feel is insane. The idea that women lie about this sort of thing comes from abusers trying to discredit the victims. I mean in the Portuguese court room, a judge won't even take the victims testimony as suficient evidence for a conviction. There is either medical proof or witnesses. So yeah please believe the victims.
Thank you for sharing!
Why does every man who proclaims to be a male feminist do the opposite? Joss Whedon types are everywhere and get away with it. It's just plain creepy.
I agree with you! Thanks for sharing with us all.
They don't hold themselves to the high standards they hold the women around themselves to.
Male feminists are the biggest creeps.
Perhaps to cover their tracks. If these men are indeed predators, they are going to use as much camouflage as possible to fool the unsuspecting.
It's an epidemic!
The axe may forget but the tree always remembers
💜💜 💜
wow good one. who said that?
@ Whomever did, it hits!
@@21stcenturyshowgirl It is an African proverb. I first heard it used in an episode of 'Andor' titled 'The Axe Forgets'.
There are too many trees anyway, Bro. Why there are all the forest fires. LMAO.
This is one of those cases where, even if in some bizzare world where maybe his version of events is the correct one, he still had multiple affairs with very young women including his children’s babysitter. So he’s still a scumbag. The question is whether he’s also a depraved rapist and monster. Which, I’m sorry, but when there’s multiple people making allegations that form a pattern of behaviour, and there’s little to no financial incentive involved, and the behaviour he’s admitting to is suspect anyway…
Yeah, I noticed he didn't DENY that any of these sexual encounters happened; apparently, his only regret was that he wasn't nicer to the women he assaulted
Right
We shall see what unfolds in the future.
"I'm an asshole but not a criminal. And my memory stinks".
That made me chuckle! Thanks for making me smile.
Of all the fanciful stories Neil has written, this one was his least believable. Seems like nothing but vague damage control. Thanks for sharing the post and your commentary!
It’s interesting. I still think it’s important to share both sides. Thanks, Ellis. 🤗
Never forget: Neil Gaiman was raised by two high-level Scientologist parents. Whether he actually belongs to that organization or not, he is using a lot of techniques out of their playbook.
Short, cold, lacking empathy, no apologies and no accountability. His response comes across as extremely arrogant too, especially since he kept his devoted fans waiting in the dark for almost three quarters of a year. He's only bothered to finally speak when this whole thing was made more widely known in the Vulture article. That and this have finally cemented that I've wasted years of my life supporting a predator. I can't read any truly beloved works of his anymore, however much you can separate them from the artist.
At first it's a well crafted statement, then dig deeper and you see all of those things you mentioned. Thanks for adding to this conversation.
@@M-J You're most welcome.
apparently the accusers use to date Gaiman for years, are you saying they aren't accountable for their actions too?
@@zodlord5669 they are accountable for dating him. He is, alone and 100%, accountable for abusing them. Hope this clears the confusion for you.
“Lacking empathy”? Why - if his version of what happened is true and the women are exaggerating, embellishing, and manufacturing horrible details to paint him in the worst possible way - why should he go out of his way to apologize or show empathy to people who are lying about him?
I’m not a fan of his. I have no desire to automatically defend him or doubt these women. After reading the Vulture piece and reading his statement, though… his account seems more plausible.
I love what you said about being respectful in these conversations.
My initial thoughts are that it’s a red flag when someone apologies, but claims they didn’t do anything wrong. If he says he did nothing wrong, why is he apologizing?
Because an apology is good for his image. If he truly felt remorse, he would admit his shortcomings. Yet his apology didn’t come from a place of remorse, he denied it yet still “apologized” to do some damage control.
Also one party cannot decide something was consensual for both parties. He can only decide that for himself. The other party has to agree for it to be considered consensual, and clearly the victims don’t agree with his statement. Therefore it wasn’t consensual.
I hope everyone here is taking care of themselves. Drink water, eat, sleep. And let’s continue to love and believe victims as we navigate this community together each day.
Thank you. It's so hard to create a video on the fly and be extra mindful of what to say. Thanks for the wise words.
I don't know his relationship in detail with those girls and neither does anyone here. Honestly we're just taking the sides of the victims as you call it. I wouldn't call it that since this is such a common occurrence between women and rich men. You will never hear a woman calling out a poor man. I'm not defending Gaiman but there are no victims here. When a girl purposely choose to date a man for years it's hard for me to side with the women. And you don't know what really went down. I see this case as a spurn lover's revenge, and revealing dirty laundry.
@@zodlord5669 I don’t know if you need this pointed out to you, but the reason you don’t hear about it happening with poor people is that they’re not public figures. The news isn’t going to report on it. The idea that no accusations are made against working class people is ludicrous on its face.
Did you see the Master pod cast? It's about this and shows texts from him to them and back and forth in which they admit to concenting. He is a perve, but they need to be accountable too is all, as sadly perving is legal. lol.
Bella L
I just feel heartbroken for these women, and I can’t imagine what it’s like to have a man you call your abuser stand before everyone to say he’s not perfect and he’s sorry and he wants to be better…. but also that he’s done nothing non consensual and their stories are full of lies. I’m not one of the victims so I can’t speak for them, but for me the implied accountability but no actual accountability would drive me mad.
Well said. Thank you for adding to the conversation.
This apology is a CLASSIC narcissistic non-apology.
I definitely detect emotionally avoidant narcissistic language.
@@M-J Thank you for sharing. As a survivor myself, I'm heartbroken. It helps to hear others feeling this as well. ❤️
@@LesMisunderstood happy to have this space for people!
I feel like keeping the text messages is at the very least evidence that he felt he would need evidence to counter claims his victims might make about him at a future date. The rest seems pretty standard: the kind of vaguely angry, vaguely guilty, vaguely defiant message that sounds like a lawyer and a pr person helped him write.
I’ll choose to believe the women and hope everyone has their day in court.
Well said, Brian.
I keep all personal text messages, unless I lose them somehow before I back them up. I assume I'm not the only one. This is not to defend Gaiman. I'm just saying people who keep text messages aren't necessarily doing it specifically to be able to counter claims made against them.
@ Thanks. It never occurred to me to keep them, but I also don’t actively delete them, which could be interpreted as suspicious as well.
I keep all my text messages. I have storage so there is no need to delete them. Why would I?
I’m sure Neil has storage.
Thank you! 🙏🏻 - from a little girl who was never believed.
That same Neil who posted photos of his son every day on Instagram claims he's "not a public person"? Suuure.
Yep yep yep.
I think you're stretching it. Tons of private people post pictures of their kids and family gathering. We all do that, doesn't mean I'm not private about my affairs.
@@zodlord5669 I totally get that, but he’s also a celebrity. Most celebs are pretty private about their kiddos. 🤷🏻♀️
@@zodlord5669 I don’t post my children’s photos online, so I don’t think I’m stretching it. He is not a private person and never has been. He just wishes he never got caught. If what is written about his son being present during the events described in the article is true - I hope the kid gets the support and professional help he needs to process it.
And he was very prolific poster and iteracted with fans a lot on Tumblr for years. Some of his fans only found out about the initial allegations from the summer because they noticed he had gone silent and started asking what was going on
I thought his response was awful. He was accused of terrible things, things that even involved his child and his response was "Some of those things happened, but it was consensual." He also seems to think the women are mad at him because they wanted a loving relationship and he just wanted sex. It ignores the criminal aspects of what hes being accused of entirely. Hes going to work on himself? He didnt get caught saying a racial slur, hes accused of rape, humilliatiing a woman sexually and involving his son it.
Its very telling his son os never brought up in his response. You would think he would clearly come out and say "I have never abused my son or involved him in anyrhing inappropriate" but he didnt. He said sorry and hopes we move on. There is no moving on from this. I want evidence, from both sides. I want a police investigation and them to find out who did what. Hes lost my trust because what he's accused of is beyond vile, and I don't ever want to risk supporting him in any way in the off chance any of it is true.
@@collectingmemoriesyt the “working on himself” line was something he said almost verbatim to one of his victims, from what I remember from the Vulture article. That raised alarm bells for me, because firstly, he’s just repeating empty words and secondly, how long does he think it takes to work on himself in that area?
A powerful comment! Thanks so much for adding to this conversation.
@ I didn't realize that. Nice catch. Thanks for adding this conversation.
Hearing you read this letter from
Gaiman just made it all the more clear that this was a pat, trite, meaningless, piece of lawyer speak in order to deflect from what happened to those (young!!) women and once more try to silence them with his words.
It is so difficult to lose respect for two people (because Amanda is just as complicit in this abuse as he is) so quickly, especially as the mask of “I’m a feminist!!” and “believe all women!!!” has been so quickly ripped away by the cold hard truth of the fact that sometimes, monsters can look just like you and me.
Powerful stuff! Thanks for adding to the conversation.
I’m not so sure about Amanda’s complicity anymore, people will gaslight themselves so hard when finding out their partner is a horrible person and I’ml sure he gaslit her plenty about it too, possibly right up until she had irrefutable proof from the nanny that he was awful. She may have been complicit but I sincerely doubt it was intentional.
It is never consentual if there is power imbalance. He evicted the mother of two children as soon as her stop bei g his sex slave.
@@anhangamirim right!
I more scared now of him... Girl, this dude is powerful and dangerous. And cruel.
@@anhangamirim predatory comes to mind.
I initially fell for his “apology”. Then I read the Vogue article thoroughly and realised he’s using the same tactics in this “apology” that he used on his victims to try and hush them up. Now I think he’s just trying to gaslight us all.
HOLD UP! Vogue did something?!? 😳 Or do you mean Vulture?
@ no sorry, it was Vulture… made a typo 🤦🏻♂️
@ no sorry it was Vulture… made a typo 🤦🏻♂️
I’m love fashion so I had to ask! 😂 Yes, to your comment, a lot of people have the same take on his statement.
I'm glad that you're adding your voice to the commentary. Agenda free and expressing the disappointment, grief and bewilderment of fans, and not blaming the women.
As for Neil - for an intelligent man, he's suddenly apparently a big dum dum when it comes to the nuances of consent, coercive control, boundaries and abuses of power.
Love your comment! Thanks!
@@ashtoreh Pretending to be an idiot when they're caught is a part of a lot of men's playbooks. The move is called "The Bumbler": In this case, "I'm a literary genius who understands human nature, but I had no idea I was causing obvious harm!"
I find it interesting that he admits to treating these women poorly, even if he denies the allegations. He knows he was wrong on some level, though his status (or believing his own lies) has warped his perception of what truly happened. Or is this just a tactic to get people to believe him? I personally believe the women who have come forward. End of story.
Great points made!
I wish this article would speak more about the power abuse in terms of labour laws from both Neil and Amanda. The podcast also barely mentions it. These women were never, ever legally employed and paid in full for their work as nannies. In fact, in the podcast one of the victims mentions having to constantly remind them that she wasn’t paid for her babysitting hours. It’s disgusting to use your fan base as a free or cheap labour. There are just so many layers of power abuse in this story no matter how you look.
I so agree on that point!
I think it's also very telling that targets for abuse who could be gaslighted and hushed was the main motive for their "employment". Wealthy, educated people would only entrust their child's care if that was the main objective with qualified, referenced, experienced nannies and contract them to do their job for a salary. They would not be pulling young, unqualified, homeless women off sleeping on the beaches to live in with them as on a promise of payment, and in their first assignment, the child was not even there.
@@clare3776 Exactly. Normal celebs are very careful with people they employ and prefer everything to be official, not to mention that they usually do not post their children's photos on social media and sign agreements with nannies so they also do not post anything. It's just elementary safety protocols when you're a public figure.
"I'm sorry that everybody is so in love with me, but what else could i do?"
It’s a super hard situation to absorb. It’s hard to imagine a time when i won’t look at his books with a sense of revulsion. Whether or not there are “legal” crimes…there’s a lesson here for any men who achieve high levels of fame.
Good point about the “lesson”
"believe all woman."
Okay thanks Neil... We will...
Well said!
I imagine he has lawyers, agents, and publishers who encouraged silence hoping that social media would do the work of supporting him and condemning the accusers.
Oh wow. RIGHT?!?
true
Translation: his lawyers read all the texts and decided nothing is specific and strong enough to get him convicted, so he‘s free to deny. Absolutely pathetic.
Oh wow. That’s a strong translation.
My take aways from his missive: (1) He sure knows how to appropriate victim language. (2) It is clear that he is exhibiting narcissistic behavior. (3) He is, at best, delusional about the alleged abuse, which is not a defense. (4) It remains a red flag, that for all his wealth, he (and Amanda Palmer for that matter), for all intents and purposes, did not pay someone to watch after their child. Baring all other alleged victims, they really put their "nanny" through the ringer and set up a pattern of abuse that is unforgivable.
Great takeaways, Bob.
the answer is: believe women.
Thank you for that.
This is too simplistic, imo. I lie too often myself(to myself, as well as others) in big and small ways, and i think most of us do, whether we admit it or not. I also know women who've lied about abuse, and these women have left me looking side-eyed at allegations like those w Neil's accusers. I don't trust myself to stay honest, let alone anyone else. The minute that I want to point fingers, I've got a hundred more pointing back at me.
Wrong. Believe evidence and a court of law. Slander exists, and everyone and anyone can lie.
Yes women like Wanetta Gibson, Treva Throneberry, Carolyn Bryant Donham, Crystal Mangum, Eleanor Williams, Alice Sebold, Amber Heard, etc etc😂
@@pafu_pafu why should it be “believe women” instead of “weigh all the evidence and see what appears likely to be true”. And in this case, there seems to be more evidence on the side of the accusers, than on Niels side
At the very, very, VERY best, what I would want to hear is, "In examining my conscience, I don't think I did anything wrong, but I am now working with a therapist to examine how my actions (may) have contributed to the situation." If there are current court charges pending (I'm not following the situation closely enough to know) then I would want him to say, "In examining my conscience, etc, but now we need to let the courts do their job." Because what he wrote sounds too much like someone who knows how to say the right words, and it does not in ANY way restore trust. At the very, VERY best, he unconsciously abused his power - and if he had any shred of integrity, he'd own up to that. But it sounds like it was so much worse. So Neil, just shut up. Get therapy.
The words he chose definitely to say more to us.
I don't believe him.
That’s fair.
as you say what we think doesnt matter: but my two cents. Like many men, i think he really did not see the damage he was causing, he just went on getting what he wanted and damn everyone else; he didnt care about his wife or his son, so why would he care about people he´d just met. blinded by his own sense of self-importance he destroyed people´s lives, because no one was more important, no one was even worth of consideration other than himself. Deplorable stuff.
I'm sorry for his heartbroken fans, you can still like his writing, even if he is a shitty person; i like the music of many a shitty human musician. maybe dont give him money though, you can always find a free way to get books.
Well stated! Agree with you. This entire story sounds how narcissistic / sick he must be!!
Well said.
It does have a narcissistic tone.
@@Hossluver_Gal Few creatures more dangerous than the narcissist, truly!
I’d be more inclined he was ignorant of it if the survivors didn’t literally say “no” and he went on anyway. I think there’s room for this argument in some cases bc we’re bad at teaching that an absence of no doesn’t mean yes, but in this case there were nos!
Gaiman's an excellent writer. He knows when to be specific and when to be vague, and being vague was definitely the approach here. He can say "some things didn't happen" even if "some things" was only one or two things among the many details in the statements about his actions. He can say "those messages read now as" and not convey what he was actually feeling about them at the time.
Even if we accept his statement as generally true, he doesn't address some of the larger issues at hand. Consent is important (and still questionable at best) but there's also issues of an abusive power dynamic of having sex with someone who works for you, or pressuring fans into sexual acts. It's nice that he admits that he was "emotionally unavailable" and all, but not accepting that there was abuse is failing to acknowledge the bulk of the accusations.
I'd like to be convinced by his statement. I think I wanted him to turn my head around about this whole thing. But I also am a writer (not nearly as skilled as he), and I recognize the tactics he's employing here. He's able to sound sincere without actually saying much that he's sincere about. I honestly thought he would do better.
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis.
"I'm sorry you feel that way."
Right. That screams narcissist to me.
Smart move by Neil, hiring Louis CK to write his apology.
🫢
Context: I have not listened to the podcast and my knowledge of its contents are second hand but I did read yesterday's Vulture article all the way through and Gaiman's blog post earlier.
I have a hard time buying it. It seems a little weird to me bc the weight of the accusations would be a lot to process, but it feels like this statement was at the ready to be deployed. One part of me wants to find the vagueness suspicious, but another part of me does get that there may be some legal reasons not to get into that. In either case, I can't help but feel that we're only getting it now bc the recent article is worse than the podcast, to my understanding (eg the stuff where his son was present). Had it been posted before the article, it would've been more believable at the time (mistakes and irresponsibility happen w kinky sex sometimes, granted I only heard abt that second hand at the time), but with the article, I don't think it would've mattered when he posted it. Now I'm left wondering if we're going to hear more in the coming weeks
Thanks so much for listing the context and sharing with us all. I understand what you are saying. I think now is when the lawyers take the reigns.
What bothers me about the articles was mention that the women had all signed NDA’s. Then later they went to him for money, and he did pay a few of them off. Then all of a sudden, it all comes out. (I listened to the podcast, the Vulture article is paywalled and I refuse to give them money or sign up.)
The practical side of my mind wonders if they decided to tell their stories despite the NDA’s, and that if his lawyers sued them for breach of contract, that would be iron clad admission of guilt? Am I being too cynical here? (And when an employer insists on an NDA, why would that include a relationship? That would set off my red flags immediately, no matter who it was. It would make sense if they were in earshot of him working, but babysitting? WTF?)
I can’t get past the lack of charges being filed. The whole thing stinks of blackmail and revenge and the worst of human behavior dragged into the light for clicks and a pay off.
If he did take advantage, it will end in court. Until then, it’s wait and see….though I won’t be buying anymore of his books on principle.
Edited to add: I just read his blog post. Lots of red flags waving in there. He sounds delusional, anyone else catch that?
@ Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Yeah, definitely weird tone the more you read it. To me it sounded like he “removed” himself from the situations if that makes sense.
I don’t post my children’s photos online, so I don’t think I’m stretching it. He is not a private person and never has been. He just wishes he never got caught. If what is written about his son being present during the events described in the article is true - I hope the kid gets the support and professional help he needs to process it.
Amen.
If there are texts messages that prove consensus it's important to show them, because I think it's becoming crucial to distinguish between abuse, rape, factual crimes, and treating poorly other individuals. Not everything it's equal to everything and right now we should be very careful with this new concept of destroying a person over allegations. That said, there are a lot of people right now that are accusing him of criminal behaviour, and it's really hard to believe that so many women are mistaking "emotional unavailability" with physical abuse. Let's see where this goes.
I'm interested to find out too. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
This is the most balanced take I’ve read about the subject. And I’ve never read a single one of his books, the way he was sold to the audiences always seemed pretentious and cocky to me, so I’ve never liked the guy but as you say you can’t lump everything together, there are clear differences between each situation you wisely pointed out. So again thank you for being so mature about this in your comment.
He said. She said. Lets read the text messages and then have Neil give them some context with the stories being told. I'm open to that.
👀
The master pod cast has all the texts.
Bella L
Gaiman is a storyteller. A good storyteller. Everything that is him has contributed to his talent and skill. The same can be said about anyone: Surgeon, teacher, lawyer, medical doctor, engineer, car mechanic, etc. He is a human being just like us.
Some, but I doubt most, would change their effective and good lawyers, medical doctors, teachers, etc. if they knew about their abysmal personal lives. Sandman is a brilliant comic. When I read it as it was coming out I knew nothing about Gaiman. It didn't matter. The stories were not only entertaining, but enchanting, real, and interesting. They still are and always will be. This crisis of conscience among some readers makes me shake my head.
Everyone’s experience and reaction is vastly different and we have to respect that.
Sounds very generic to me.
Others have said the same thing.
Sadly to me his response felt like AI written through the parameters of recommended legal advice, and as it ended I realised my face had contorted into a kind of icky wince.
Hell, the guy maybe innocent of some or even all of these allegations, but the response was empty of everything but meh.
I'll tell you what. I kinda of does. For someone who appeared to be so empathetic, not a lot of empathy displayed in that letter.
definitely appreciate you pointing out that this whole thing is not about us fans. i've seen some people being super dramatic about this and making it about them, but this isn't about the fans. and it's disrespectful to the women who are coming forward to try to pretend that it is. it's understandable that this is a blow to the fans and that the fans need time to process, but people making that the focus of the whole thing isn't great. so thank you for not doing that! 👍🏻
on the topic of his response, i was completely unimpressed. it was a nonapology meant to do damage control. and even if all of the relations he had with these women were consensual (doubtful), he didn't even acknowledge whether or not he'd been taking advantage of vulnerable women. according to the article, the women who have come forward were either fans or employed by him, which shows a gross pattern of knowingly and purposefully putting women in a position where he would have power over them and could coerce them. he (conveniently) failed to address that aspect at all.
Thank you - I really wanted to convey that through my videos. I’m not into shock or dramatics. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Whenever something like this happens, we really have to ask ourselves: what benefit is there? What risks are being taken? The only response this man can make to attempt to maintain his status is, “actually no.” Meanwhile the people who came forward had absolutely nothing to gain by doing so and quite a bit to lose, as anybody who makes accusations against the powerful and beloved does. Their stories are too specific, too similar, and too numerous to ignore or explain away.
Something definitely doesn’t add up. Thanks for the comment.
Why did these women stick around him
I’m sure he is quite charming in private as he was in public.
I know, right? And later they want to winge when they were great with it at the time. He opened some childhood trauma and they need to handle that and stop blaming him. Yes he is a perve but they were down and they need to be accountable.
Bella L
I think what happens with guys like Neil is that they go from being some regular nobody and they get fame, influence and money and it goes straight to their egos. They’re not grounded enough to handle it.
In their mind, and you see this pattern over and over, they were not doing anything wrong for years they’re just entitled to their adoring fans, sex with pretty people etc because they kind of believe their own legend. Of course the pretty babysitter/intern/whomever wanted to have sex with them, they’re famous and super talented!
All the while they completely ignore the power imbalance, entitlement, consent etc because they’re used to being adored, getting their way, being rich and influential… right up until reality comes calling.
I don’t reflexively believe every accusation against a celeb, i look at each case and judge accordingly. Usually though, where there smoke there’s fire and there is … rather a lot of smoke curling around Gaiman. They’ll investigate and it’s likely not going to be pretty.
Thanks for your comment. Lots to think about!
Yeh, if he didn't do it, all he had to say was, "I didn't do this." This one is straight out of something from the behaviour panel. There are so many language tells in this. He's not being honest - that's all there is to it.
Thanks for your take on the statement.
I don't know. Because intimate relationships are skeptical. He might have been having a great time while the girl wasn't.
Before this story broke he was all for believing women when they report SA. Now he's like - but in my case don't believe everything they say.
I’m getting that vibe as well.
Truth.
I hadn't realized he had made a response. Thanks for bringing this to my attention
I hope it is helpful for you.
yeah it's a lot too late.
I agree with you that he should of addressed this in July. I think many people look at it as a he said/she said topic. I just wish victims of these acts would address them right away. I have other thoughts but i won't go into them here. I think it's good that you discussed this situation.
Thanks! I agree with you, timing is everything!
Traumatized people aren't always ready to go to the police immediately, or ever, because the police often re-traumatize them, blames them for their assaults, and then tell them there isn't enough evidence to prosecute their attacker. One of these women DID get the police involved, only for Amanda Palmer ( his then-wife) to deny everything when they spoke to her.
To be fair, I do have texts from years ago (probably). Maybe he's talking about Scarlett texting him that it was "consensual" after he called dibs on being the victim in the situation. That part broke my heart cause I can imagine how allowing yourself to be gaslighted into thinking you actually wanted it can seem a better choice than facing the reality of what has been done to you.
No shame, I never save anything like that. 🤷🏻♀️ yeah, it will be interesting to see how this progresses.
In legal situations lawyers will tell you to often say nothing no matter the issue even if it's true or not. My guess is he thought it would go away as well.
Plus it was like the media weren’t even covering it.
Right!
I agree. Not a lot of chatter.
Too late in my opinion. It’s definitely damage control and it’s honestly hard for me to believe a word of it. It seems like the same crap we always hear from men. He of course has a right to say what he wants and defend himself and give his side of the story but yeah….his statement somehow left me feeling more icky
Timing is key I think. Thanks for your take, Crystal!
I’m going with the presumption of innocence. If there was anything illegal or unlawful done, then take it to the proper authorities and have them investigate the allegations to see what the conclusions are.
The court of public opinion is not anywhere near an actual court.
It will be interesting to see where this goes from here.
Just like with Manson a few years back. These girls know what they are in for and stay then later have issues due to unresolved childhood trauma and wanna blame the perve they chose to play with. It is not girl power and it needs to stop. The master podcast shows their texts, check it out, it's interesting, btw.
Bella L
One of the victims got the police involved, only to have Gaiman's wife at the time (Amanda Palmer) to deny everything and kill the investigation.
Respecting people who are lying, Neil? LMAO. Stupid. But believe all women, Neil..
Bella L
He said that himself!
It came from Neil but I'll bet a lawyer reviewed it first. And it's important to remember that as the people's court, we only see what's being done publicly, there ay be actions taken in private we know nothing about (an maybe it's not for us to know at this time tbh). But I agree that it is important to hear his side as well as the alleged victim's side before making any final conclusions.
I agree with you.
Biggest thing jumping out to me is, he frames his truth as THE truth. I feel as if he were truly remorseful and trying to be objective, he'd frame his truth as that - HIS truth, HIS perspective on things. Yet, he maintains his claims of innocence without doing that; without allowing for the possibility that his experience in the alleged events were at all different than those leveling the allegations. It's all Neil-centric, which is the reddest and biggest of flags in my experience.
Neil-centric. I like that!
As you suggest he is a writer and I wasn't there. I have an open mind.
As you should. Thanks for commenting.
I think he's a perve but it's legal and they played with him for their reasons, and now that their childhood trauma woke up they wanna blame him, no. Heal that girl.
Bella L
While I like to believe in the "Innocent until proven guilty" idea, there are definitely some red flags here. First, this is the same guy who has said "Believe the victim", so why shouldn't we here? Secondly, yes, the text messages. That comes across as "Ok, I'm gonna get in trouble for this, let me keep these (probably edited) messages to strengthen my case when the time comes.".
Here, he's banking on the women NOT keeping the original messages to counter his version. Finally, the confession without a confession. "I'm not perfect. I was self-focused, careless with people's hearts and feelings, caught up in my own story, I'll work on myself to be better..." When you say these things, it just comes off as a guy who knows he F'd up and has a problem.
So, I don't think this statement helps him. In fact, it may come back to bite him in the butt. Believe the victim, right Neil? On THAT, we agree.
Nicely said!
On a side note, we have to have a separate discussion about the podcast, "Master" which came out before the Vulture article. It provides new and sometimes conflicting details in the story that make the whole thing a bit more complicated. There's audio from his many Wattsapp convos with Scarlett and more context from Neil and the women themselves.
I did a reaction video back in July, but I don’t get into the details. I don’t think it’s my place to do that.
First, it is S.A. He is from a generation that was taught that you try to have sex with everything that has a hole, and that it's not rape unless she's screaming bloody murder or trying to run away from you. He MIGHT not have realized, he MIGHT have been deluding himself that she/they consented, NOW he has been shown the truth of it. And he is still trying to say it was consenting.
I still have text messages from 2013. 🤣but that’s cause I’m lazy
😂
Bro my friend still has rp messages from like 15 years ago taht she did, so yeah, people do that. LOL
He said no violation happened… he employed and housed someone and coerced her into a sexual relationship. That in itself is a violation!!! That is an abuse of power and the fact he crossed lines when she said no is still wrong even if we take out the employment relationship out of the equation. But if we do take the employment into account if she didn’t acquiesce to his desires he could throw her out without warning. How can there be normal levels of consent there? I think he’s even WORSE than Joss Whedon given the “you rely on me for not only a job but also a place to live.”
Yep, it’s pretty horrific when you break it down like that.
Greetings from the Czech Republic! Sandman was a reason to immerse myself in English in the 90s! And who better to help me do that than a storyteller like Neil Gaiman? Neverwhere was another great epiphany. I read the other books with gusto, but they were getting repetitive. I only found out about the whole scandal today. It makes me sad, but I'll keep the books and want to return to Sandman fairly soon. I converted to the Orthodox Church less than four years ago, and that helps a lot in that sense: is Gaiman a sinner? Sure, we all are. No living person is my role model. That's what saints are for. I prayed today for Neil to come to true repentance. What he posted today is truly unconvincing. Did he say to Chat GPT "Write a damage control text"?
Hello Czech Republic! Thank you for your thoughts and sharing your experience.🙂
@@M-J Thank you. :-) I would like to add something personal to the topic. First: I am a below-average Czech writer. A few of my shorter prose pieces probably have some overlap and depth. And thats all. My Conan book, where I combine Howard and Lovecraft's mythology, is not really good, but it has some enthusiastic fans, which is cute. I don't feel bad that I've failed as a writer. I have lots of ideas, but dedication and talent have never been enough.
Second: My sexuality involves various perverse ideations. I've never harmed anyone and never had non-consensual sex, and I've never realized the worst fantasies. But let's say I had more talent and dedication and would have succeeded. (Besides, I would also have to write in English...). I'd have hordes of fans, and lots of money, and I'd start to feel invulnerable. What would that do to me? Wouldn't I become the same monster that Gaiman became? I can't know, of course, but I certainly can't rule it out. In Orthodoxy, we are taught not to judge others and to repent of our own sins. When I see how ultra-right commentators in particular are now enjoying "righteous indignation," I wonder: Just because someone does worse things than you doesn't make you better...
The Power imbalance bothers me. All these women were much younger than him and in vulnerable position emotionally or financialy.
Red flags for sure.
Wow! I appreciate you giving us Gaiman’s side. Also, the glasses look good on you 😊
Of course! And thank you!
Some signed nda's. Then they ran out of the $, and ... decided to disclose. I'd rather know what really happened beyond allegations.
@@williammkydde I’m sure. I think we all would.
I swear, I thought he'd never respond to the allegations. Thanks for the update!
I thought the same thing. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
In the form of a Friends episode title:
The one where Watson lightens the mood. 🐕
Ha ha ha! Yes!
I always asked myself how some writers can bring such intense and dark stuff to life without being entangled in their universe as a protagonist (or as the creator even as a god?) somehow. Sure there is a dark side in every single one of us, but I guess most of us try to keep this locked in (even hidden from ourselves) because we are ashamed or shocked of our own feelings towards various things sometimes. For people with narcisstic or psychopathic features letting their deepest, darkest thoughts, their inner self, flow to paper and keep it hidden in plain sight might be the thrill they need keep themselves satisfied. But of course this is not necessarily transformable to every writer of dark lyric and poetry.
Amen!
I guess that Scientology background really comes in handy for swaying public opinion.
I can see that. I really didn’t know about that background until recently.
@M-J oh look it up, his parent were very high up..until the next guy took over the cult... NG was even an auditor. So he has mad skills for brainwashing. No doubt he was tortured as a child. Look at all the other Hollywood cases of boys raised in that cukt with sexual deviations and crimes.
I still have AIM conversations from the 90s, so him keeping the texts isn’t unbelievable to me. It may be those relationships meant enough to him to keep them. BUT even if his view is that he didn’t do anything wrong, it doesn’t invalidate the women’s experiences or allegations. Memories can be distorted over time, we can convince ourselves of things if we really want to as a coping mechanism. So…yea. The fact the women had those experiences, from their point of view, and felt they had to come out about them, is enough for me to believe he’s not innocent.
AIM 🤯 wow! Thanks for adding to this conversation.
Belated and full of vague regrets and intentions to do better and he shows resentment
noncon or not it is quite clear he abused his power over much younger women in some way
and involving a child in sexual play is criminal if true
Definitely will be interesting to see what happens next.
I watched yesterday's vid, but didn't comment, because I couldn't read the article due to my monthly limit having been hit...which is weird bc I don't know why I would have read anything else this month...I only get my news via other people. Lol. Anyway, I think that it's okay to separate the work from the artist, as you decided to do in that one. I also think it's okay to wait until there's undeniable proof that he's done these things, before making any official stance. I'm not saying I don't believe the accusers, and it's not a very big percentage, but researchers estimate that between 4 & 10% of S.A. accusations are false. OH, UPDATE: In the middle of writing this, I figured out how to read the article. I pasted the link into Speechify and it bypassed the paywall, lol. I'm listening to myself read the article now. 😂If anyone else doesn't want to pay, but wants to read the article (and doesn't have a paid Speechify account), they should Google 12ft ladder io. 😉
Thanks Koda. It's a tough situation and I think a lot of us are interested in seeing where this goes.
He’s covering his tracks - on one note I do have text messages from years ago as I have the same number - once read they just fall down the thread and live in the cloud I think .
I think I’m the only one that deletes almost everything. 😂
That reply shows zero willingness to even entertain the possibility that he could have done something wrong.
I firmly believe that all the sex I have had was consensual and happened when people could freely give or revoke consent. But if someone came forward claiming otherwise I would be wiling to at least examine the possibility that things looked different from their perspective or that there were factors present that affected their ability to freely give or revoke consent that I was unaware of.
If multiple people accused me? I would be taking a damn hard look at myself to see where things had gone wrong. Even if I felt I hadn't violated their consent I would know that *something* about how I was going about it was in need of serious work. This goes double for relationships where kink or bdsm were involved.
"Everything was consensual and good and the parts that can't be explained away by that never happened." Is at best damage control, and at worst his inability to see the reality of what happened.
Thank you for adding to this conversation.
I tried to follow him on Tumbler, but I think it was some ploy to - I think he steals stories!
Thanks for addressing this difficult and disturbing situation…
I asked my community and they voted for it. Thank you.
@@M-JYes. I also voted for it too. Thanks again
First off, I've never read/watched a single Neil Gaimen work, so this is unbiased. I just want to say, as someone who is autistic/ADHD/neurodivergent (and female in case that matters), I have had many experiences where I am in a relationship with someone (romantic and platonic) and I will think everything is great, rainbows and butterflies, when suddenly I get blocked and cut off and accused of things I have no memory of doing. At first I thought the other person must be crazy. But it happened so much, I started to realize the problem must be me.
After being diagnosed with autism and ADHD I've come to realize that people really do interpret things wildly different and have different communication styles, to the point it's like we are speaking different languages. The entire time I had no idea. As I started to notice the pattern, I am more and more careful and clarify everything a hundred times, and I STILL run into this issue to the point where I want to just give up on having a relationship
I'm not excusing Neil Gaimen. But as someone who has had wild accusations thrown at them, and been completely clueless, I hate to say it but I can kind of see how it could happened. I don't know. He honestly could be 100% a monster. We will never know.
I tend to believe the victims first and foremost but based on my own experiences I have a small twinge of empathy when I read his letter. He could be totally lying but it's similar to messages I've written to people in earnest
And again, I'm not a fan, I don't even know why I'm here lol
I'm just curious- did you read the article 'There Is No Safe Word' ?
I know what that feels like too, that's why the allegations made me aprehensive at first. It was a pretty intense article tho. I think he'll need a little more than that vague defense.
I’ll preface this by mentioning that I’m also a woman with ADHD and autism.
Whether he believes it was consensual or not, he’s a wealthy, powerful man in his 60s with a pattern of pursuing women in their 20s. He’d already admitted (via his publicist) to having a “sexual relationship” with the nanny and claimed it was fully consensual. Again, she was in her 20s, he was in his 60s, and he was her employer. He got into a bath with her naked on her first day of working as a caregiver for his son. How consensual can that be really? There was a definite power imbalance.
Well, it's nice to see you. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us in the comments.
@ It definitely is, weird.
I haven't read the article or listened to the podcast. I just came to your channel and saw that this video was up. This denial sounds like a generic PR message. It's very bland. It reminds me of Clinton wagging his finger at me when I was nine, lying about manipulating a 19-year-old. I don't know that I would except anything else at this point though.
I disagree. I fully believe he and he alone wrote that message and I genuinely think he thinks he hasn’t done anything wrong. If I were to confront a certain person in my life about awful shit they’ve done to me, I’m 90% sure their response would be extremely similar to what he said in that document
@ I agree with you in that he wrote it, but it is very carefully crafted and absolutely went through legal before being posted.
@@apollo1493 Oh, I agree that he believes he's innocent and that he's the victim here. In situations like this, that's part of the problem. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. It feels like a well worn statement written by many men who have done many wrongs.
I think the answer at this late stage in the game is pretty obvious....
It will be interesting to see if anything happens in the public eye next.
What a strange video. Almost looks like handwashing away what is alleged. It is best to take Gaiman's motto here: Believe all women.
I agree.
Were there rape allegations in July? i really wanna give everyone give everyone in this situation a fair shake, including Gaiman . i hate to say it but when reading the accusations , I honestly read it with skepticism and of course i don't want to victim blame . it just that some of these things are so disgusting and so strange and the fact that all these gross details take precedence in the story over the actual rape allegations is what bothers me. if she really did all those things id want more information on why she felt she needed to do those things and why was more than one incident ? I cant say that there is a human on this earth that could make me lick shit, let alone return for seconds , but hey thats just me. if it turns out he raped someone , then this is a criminal case and yes they should fry him. i don't feel like keeping text messages is stranger than licking shit, i mean if thats on the table why would keeping text messages be strange. idk something about rape allegations and shit just reeks of dishonesty to me . Maybe its the whole Amber Turd thing that happened thats still in my subconscious. Again if he did any of the illegal stuff fry him, but its not my place to judge someone on their fetishes between another consenting adult. i prefer this be handle in court and not in the court of public opinion but i guess thats my opinion
If I recall the podcast, content, there were discussions of consent, consensual situations.
Check the master pod cast it shows texts between them. This is so much like the Manson stuff. Girls crying whatever after later they have a problem when they were fine at the time is not okay. Sorry. Would I mess with a bro like him or Manson, no way, but they did so they need to stop winging after the fact.
Bella L
Had no CLUE who this author was at all till I was listening to Olly’s channel & he mentioned IF we wanted to hear about “whoever” is really all I got / that we should come to your channel. OK, I’ve done some reading up on this author & he’s paying off the baby sitter in a non-disclosure settlement. Making monthly payments to her of $9,000.00+ & IF this is true = SOMETHING happened he doesn’t want put out there!! SAD Situation FOR VICTIMS INVOLVED & some of his fans. I did order the book about when you were at the beach & read 1 of his books you mentioned. I’m just curious now.,🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️ I still think there’s 2 sides to every story. Hope this is over for him & hope the victims eventually through therapy / meditation / prayer eventually can get on with life. Thank You for these last few videos. I subscribed & 👍.
Thanks adding to this conversation.
I posted this on your other video about this, but feel actually it would have been more appropriate here( I am late to the non-party on this one). I don't agree with you that this is just about Neil and the survivors, although I understand that stance, but for me, as I said in my previous message , it's about the scale of the harm, on different levels (quote from post over on other vt) .How many people's faith, love and trust he has abused. Whether it was impressionable young female fans, blindsided by his charm and fame , to the millions of people who took him into their heart as one of" theirs", built memories and milestones around his books (and edit - your feelings are valid, too) , who now have to go through this grieving process, this feeling of disillusionment. To his kids. To his co-workers.....it just goes on and on.
His response made no sense to me and put the final nail in the coffin. And as an edit, I also agree that for this to be such a long considered response, it is really poor - especially considering his skill as a writer. He didn't deny anything out rightly. On one hand he claimed people were spreading misinformation, and on the other, he excused his previous silence as "respecting people telling their story". Why would you respect someone lying about you if that's what they were doing? He then claims all the relationships were happy and positive, but then admits to being emotionally unavailable whilst sexually available in those relationships, careless with their feelings, selfish and "wrapped in his own story". How can he claim to have had happy, positive relationships under those circumstances? What story was he telling himself even then? He admits to acting in ways that would incite abuse, "careless, with people's hearts and feelings" "Self-focused" and he paid women money to recompense them for their pain, but then doesn't accept there was any abuse - maybe he never did.
It's over - in so many ways, and it's definitely over for him. But how many hearts have broken? It's abominable, all of it,
Yours is the 2nd UA-cam video I’ve watched about this topic. I haven’t read or heard anything about any specific allegations. Have just seen thumbnails come up from time to time.
I’m of the believe woman & believe men persuasion. I’m also of the people believe what works best for them persuasion.
As far as him waiting before he responds, so what. I don’t think that means anything either way.
If someone accused me of sexual assault I’d be pissed. It would probably take a while before I could respond from anything besides anger. Next I’d try to communicate with my accuser directly to try and figure out what was going on. I’d only respond publicly if I felt like I had to.
As far as him keeping old messages… he’s a rich and famous man. That’s probably standard operating procedure for the rich and famous.
I have no idea if he’s guilty of whatever. I generally assume that some rich and powerful people are doing suspect 💩 all the time, and that we only hear about it when some other rich and powerful person doesn’t get the contract or deal they wanted and so conveniently drum up dirt. Regardless of if it’s real or not.
I’m certain that there are lines of willing women waiting to have a chance with him just because he’s rich and famous. And then some because they like his books. That’s unhealthy. Any rich and powerful person is going to be surrounded by sexually willing sycophants. That’s got to be weird. That has to skew your perception a bit. I’m not saying that, that justifies anything. But to think it’s not a factor…
I also understand that the difference between physical intimacy and abuse isn’t as cut and dry as everyone would like to think. I’m a recovering narcissist. Anyone who dated me in my late teens and early twenties wasn’t making the best life choices. Did I intentionally disregard anyone’s wishes or abuse anyone? No. Was I bad for people emotionally & virally? Absolutely.
Is dating people when you’re not emotionally healthy/mature abusive? Maybe. But that’s most people.
Who wouldn’t be psychologically broken after being married to and emotionally broken by Amanda Palmer? Even though she came with red flairs instead of red flags.
The only thing that I know for sure is that men who want to be happy in the future should never let themselves be alone with a woman that they’re not married to or blood related to. Ever. Especially if that man is rich and famous.
Wow! That is a lot to unpack. It will be interesting to see how this moves forward or not .
I’m more informed now.
Yeah, it sounds creepy.
I’m still not sure what exactly to think about it.
I don’t know how we can 100% informed or be 100% unbiased. Wealth & power must do a number on people’s minds. Maybe equal and opposite to the effects of poverty & fear.
I’m not excusing bad behavior. Just trying to understand how these things happen. How much of a wealthy man’s normal is coercion from the perspective of the poor and vulnerable. And how much of a vulnerable woman’s agency can be consent? If she says that she’s all on board in the moment, how much in her right mind is she?
I’m trying to imagine that all sides are trying to be honest from their current perspectives.
Not trying to defend him, just trying to understand. What kind of weirdo could I turn into given that much fame and attention. Not saying that I would but I have to wonder. And who would come out of the woodwork if I became rich and famous? I don’t think that I’m a villain but I know that have behaved badly.
Curious about what more comes to light from all sides.
After reviewing more content I also find it strange how many people blabber on like they are saints. Especially men. I tend to think that if a man thinks that he has never been the bad guy A) he has always been a simp, B) he’s problematic and doesn’t recognize it, C) he’s a virgin, D) he’s actively a predator. Or a combination of all of the above.
The main reason I started to fix my narcissistic behavior is because it was boring. When a guy is a shadow self centered prick, women flock to him. Yeah it’s gross but it’s absolutely true.
A tall rich famous man is going to have more access to willing women than the average Chad. So that inherently is going to skew his perception of women and the world over time. He’d have to actively fight against it. Intellectually.
Again not trying to justify his actions or the situation. Just trying to understand.
Maybe there is no possibility of consent at that level. Maybe everything is cohesion from a certain hight.
@ lots to think about. Thanks for sharing!
The 'male feminist' strikes again.
Yep
Ugh what a mess.
To answer your question, I looked at my phone, the messages I have on there are over a decade old. Granted there’s nothing either incriminating or exculpatory in there, it’s just laziness.
Much as I listen to this and think it sounds like a reasonable (if late) response. And much as I look at the fact that initial criminal investigations were dropped. The number of women that have come forward seems to point to a pattern of behaviour and really isn’t something that you can overlook. Because best case scenario in this for Neil Gaiman: people accept he was a complete asshole to women on a huge scale. Worst case: well, it’s a lot worse.
Thanks for talking it out MJ 🙂
Being a complete asshole... doesnt exist. You either hurt people or dont
@ sorry, I wasn’t very clear. To me, someone who hurts someone else = complete asshole. You can be a complete asshole without being a criminal
Like a weasel poking its head out of a hole in the ground. And not a defense but if you sign with a major law firm you agree to archive all your texts and emails. I imagine he's been having a lot of lawyer conversations about those exchanges. The response has a couple of lawyerly turns of phrase in there.
Indeed!
The tone of his letter sounds shady and insincere!
On the 2nd read, I definitely picked up on some language.
I still believe the women.
Thank you for sharing!
😢
🤗
I described a sexual situation I was in to a friend. I believed it was dubious consent my frined was adament it was assault. He may believe it was fully consensual but his partners memories may differ especially if there was hesitation that they did not voice or did not strongly put word to in case they weren't listened to. I haven't read the accusations against him but with the above in mind that statement was just him trying to excuse himself and he needs to do better.
Thank you for sharing with us.
Oh MJ. I have been thinking about this recently. This matter is very difficult to know who to believe. As we CAN'T just take the word of either party, especially if there's NO proof. If these events happened but there's no proof, we are ONLY left with the word of either part, THEN we can ONLY accept either parties word as our form of the truth, WITHOUT physical proof. It's a case of he said, she said but there's no evidence, but you have to take my word for it. If EITHER party provided physical proof, like texts, video, pictures or voice recordings, then the truth would come out, for good or bad. I have been struggling to know what do to with my Neil Gaiman books. As I'm not a big fan but a someone that reads his stuff from time to time. I fall in the middle of this. I want to believe him but i keep remembering people from the past, where they seemed perfect in the public eye but in private was a different matter. But try to remember this, until we have proof, we can't form judgement.
Yeah, it's very weird as a fan to travel this road.
The master pod cast shows texts from both parties and after seeing those, I feel he is a perve but that they made him feel it was fine and that they were more than down, and they need to be accountable. Sadly perving is legal. These girls are not being girl power here at all.
Bella L
The master pod cast shows texts of the girls saying how great their time was with him after the issues, so to him they were willing. I feel he is a perve, but it's legal. If a bro, a boss, any man invited me into a bath hours after meeting, I'd so be outa there! That, dearies, is girl power! Seriously and women need to be accountable rather than blaming the perves to which they are drawn clearly due to unhealed childhood trauma. Sorry but this needs to be paid attention to in order to help these women. He is guilty of being a perve, not making anyone do anything, and that isn't legal. I suggest no one read this try dating him. LMAO. That's all.
And if you have trauma, get that healed.
Bella L
That is weird…the bath thing. 🤷🏻♀️
I am totally with you on this. Even if I was a world famous author who somehow got the nerve to invite a female employee I just met to get naked in an outdoor bathtub at my property I’d be completely shocked if she is not offended by it, let alone agreeing to it…Neil is definitely a nasty pervert which breaks my heart because I’ve been a fan of his work for more than 20 years. However the lady is an adult and she let him had his way with her so you can’t say he raped her. What Neil did wasn’t a crime but it’s disgusting nonetheless. He’d no longer have my respect no matter how good of a writer he is.
@@rivl9644 and not just a woman, but an employee! Many lines were crossed.
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😂
If i were a puplic fogure i would have every text message logged. I am not a public figure and i still have most of the cell phones ive ever owned, that have all my text meassages. This is not a message in defense of Neil, i mean come on, 8 accusors. Sheesh. Im just saying Its just not that strange to have most if not all of past text meassages from 20/25 years ago when texting was invented. L
Thanks! I get it ...but don't get it. To me, that's like s keeping every email I've ever received.