2019 Road Glide Ultra, 2 weeks ago early Feb, 2020, I went with a S&S cam chest & oil pump and Woods 22X cam, adjustable push rods and new cam bearing. D&D 2 into 1 pipes. Vance and Hines FP3. Started project with 2300 miles on bike. Took me 3 days. 1day tear down, 1day rebuild, 1day pipes and then a week later got bold and went for 16"apes. YIKES, Every trick in the book but did it. 2 days to pull wires through Factory 47 16" bars with new heated grips. 4 hours total so far at highway speeds 65 to 100 mph no issues no squeals or knocks and no leaks. Have not told the wife yet. Maybe next month. Your videos helped choosing which route to go. Runs great, sounds great, feels great. Thank for you for your efforts on videos. Now if it will quit snowing and raining. sigh near St Louis area in Illinois
Of note, the bike is louder, so riding down the highway there is extra rumble to deal with, and full tank of gas goes about 205 instaed of 240 at 70 to 75 mph.
HIGHSPEED DRAG55 if Your ever in the area we would recommend having us tune it for you. Your mileage can be improved afterwards. Glade you like It! Nice setup!!!
May 2020 rode my 19 Electra glide standard up to Moonshine HD from Jax Florida. They put the S&S Cam chest kit 465G in the bike. This was an Awsome change in bike performance! Harley wants your bike to last 2 Years. I want it to last way past that. My advice and Moonshine will tell you......if u open up that cam chest, get rid of All that oem trash, not just the oil pump because the cam plate is just as bad as their oil pumps
In the process of putting my 124 together right now in my 2017 and noticed my pump has the groove for that seal, called the dealer today to get one. Wasn’t sure if it was really necessary but had heard about the seal fixing the cavitation issue. Glad to see it was a good idea to get the seal.
Kinda explains why the Harley dyi and independent shops like crying and hating on Harley’s products. Looks like Harley’s on-point when it comes to finding out what’s wrong and how to fix it. It also shows how some are trying to force power through a part not designed to handle it as in this case. A stage upgrade with standard stock parts.
They cry because they don’t know how to leave the damn bike alone. I have a 2017 Street Glide Special , in Hard Candy HotRod Red Flake. Recall for the , secondary clutch actuator . Mine was fine, but it was changed anyway. Those who bitch all the time are either not a Harley owner or they messed the bike up.
@Ronin shit happens, it’s a Machine. Normally a broken compensating means a new compensator maybe a chain maybe a stater not a new motor so what else did you do to it?
@Ronin I had a 2010 road king, with the 96ci twin cam motor. Stater went, leak at the transmission cause they put the hottest part of the exhaust next to it, so the gasket failed. All repaired under warranty no reoccurrence. Shit happens. If you think other brands don’t have issues your fooling yourself. I had a Suzuki Boulevard m50, when you ride it for a long time the transmission begins to slip. So much for Japanese Quality and reliability. As for Indian recalls they would actually start on their own while sitting in your garage,putting your family members at risk of being killed if you have a attached garage. They all have issues.
@Ronin it’s actually 99% true. It’s also a result of not properly letting it break-in, and using all those oils which have never been tested by Harley to use in their products.
Why didn’t HD fix these bikes as they being sold. I have 19 SGS with 4400 miles 9 months old with bike in pieces. . Needs pistons cylinders pump oil pan and valve seals from dealer under warranty after motor almost ruined from failing pump. Pump did not scavenge oil back to pump. Not happy with HD at this point. Bike was built may 2019 and people should know this issues and new oil pumps should be installed. It will save a lot of $ for everyone in the long run.
Thanks for the explanation. Had my oil pump replaced last month under warranty. Actually didn’t know I had an issue, took bike in for clutch recall, tech called a few days later and asked to keep the bike for another couple of days to replace the oil pump. I am very happy he caught and corrected the issue.
Jim Koch , I was not having an issue with the bike, but the tech advised the oil pump needed to be replaced and did so under warranty. I did not notice any sumping or leakage, but had read in several articles about the early M8 motors having oil pump issues. Mine is a 17 that I purchased in March of 18, left over. Warranty expires in two weeks.
@@rickyhawkins7407 I think it's interesting that they would volunteer to open the cam chest and replace the oil pump when it wasn't showing any signs of having issues when the bike was in for a recall. I was just wondering because I upgraded my oil pump when I changed the cam but otherwise would have left it alone.
So I just replaced my stock 2017 oil pump that was working just fine. I was doing a Stage 2 so was advised to do the pump. Mild Stage 2 107 so went with brand new HD pump. The pump had two vanes let go during the dyno tune. Now Im going with what my builder recommended from the get go, a Fueling at $700 over the HD.
I’ve got the 2018 117 breakout stage 3 never ever has an issue at all with anything!! Done 30,000km so far ridden in 2 degree weather and pissing down with rain and ridden in 52 degree weather...not a single issue
Thanks guys....Glad I found your channel...you're funny, very informative and easy to follow. Enjoying how you explain everything in good detail along with the reasons, especially regarding important issues. Very cool...sub'd.
I have a 2018 road glide ultra. I did as u recommended going with the 2020 HD oil pump. After, my bike had oil sumping problems. Then I installed s&s cam plate and pump. Life is good now
You guys are so badass. I am in the Army and currently live in Virginia. I am moving to tx In June. I need to set something up so I can stop by and have you all install a cam!
Probably too early to tell but do you think the 2020’s will suffer from the previous years problems? I own a 2020 Street Glide and am debating between buying the extended service plan or upgrading to fueling or S&S parts. Not concerned with building a monster engine. Only concerned with long term reliability.
Play Josh it's me kids the TJ my dad's in California and the seahorse to buy at the Forum I have some money at somebody get for that trail tell him I said hi if you're over there, can you call me anytime call me at 9:06 you playing on my phone number 906
Hey guys this is great, thanks.. I understand that some/most late model 2019s have the upgrade... I can't tell when my motor was built, but the build date on my bike is 5/13/2019... I haven't noticed any issues.. and I'm running a California Stage III... hope you can help. Thanks again!
My 114 fat boy with a November 2018 motor build date has the rear seal on the pump. Just installed new S&S pump and plate today along with 475 camshaft lifters,cuffs and Quickee pushrods. My new pump also had the recess to accept the crankshaft seal o-ring
@@MoonshineHarley no Dyno close to me,I flashed a base map on my FP-3 and will run a auto tune at some point. Im playing with the idea jumping ship to a DynoJet power vision,but im going wait till I have run a few tanks of fuel on auto tune with the FP-3. I haven't ridden it yet as I only did the work on it yesterday and the weather isn't great here in the UK.
Philip Roberts the fp3 is a terrible tuner with very limited capabilities. The power vision is a great interface and can adjust all parameters. Also I’d recommend getting target tune to really have the bike dialed in
Helpful info on Identifying the pump models and the warning not to turn up the pump pressure but Only 4 OEM revisions? I dont think you guys were quite prepared for this talk.. On the cam plates I feel someone needs to point out a few things here.. That OEM cam plate that Nameless mentioned, is not stamped aluminum, but cast Al, and I don't think the S&S is 7071 Aluminum (but is it's the only one with a brass bearing) , however the Fueling Race series is.. Magnets will not will not collect all metal..but ferrious metals only. Though Jamie said "same as the others" when talking of the screen in the S&S, I dont think the Fueling or OEM oil pumps have Screens..Also as Jamie mentioned, the .005 crank runout tolerance and measurement is not on the "very end" of the crank, but measured where the bearing will ride.
Just installed the S&S 475C cam, oil pump, oil pump plate, etc...so im good not having installed the oem o-ring behind the pump? Great content subscribed.
Ok excellent video for M8 owners. How about some info for folks like me looking to purchase a 2017 ultra limited low. Should I stay away from the early models and save enough $ to purchase a 2020. And if I do purchase a 2017 what can I expect to pay to have it upgraded to the 2020 oil pump.
Maybe I'm confused however you stated that when you upgrade to a larger cam you get more heat. My understanding from all info I have heard is 1st you will ave done a stage 1 before a cam upgrade which the stage 1 is suppose to help run cooler because of it running less lean from factory. Then with a cam upgrade it would be logical to add even more fuel which if more fuel equals cooler running then how can a cam upgrade produce more heat. Also if your crank pinion is not within tolerance for the new cam plate then wouldn't it be out of tolerance from the factory there by chewing up your factory cam plate?Just trying to learn . Thanks.
Would it be advantageous putting a new cam chest and pump on stock motor I’m not really sure I want more than stock. 117’s will get to the speed limit in a hurry.
You guys are so deep in the smallest of details that I’m not sure to let no one do a big build on my bike but you guys unfortunately I live in Miami not Tennessee.
tacmac95 we pick up and ship all over the country! We are in Florida monthly. Please call the shop and ask for Aaron or Jamie when you’re ready 615-274-4170
Have you guys found a lot of M8 crank shafts that were over 5 thousands run out ? I am running the fueling pump and never asked if the builder checked the run out. I am sure he did.
i just got a 2020 street bob , not wanting to much more so stock oil pump will be fine for stage 2 with cam and tune TBR and air filter .be fast enough for me for a while ,
Are you guys coming across a lot of newer bikes that the run out is out of spec? I have a '19 RGS with only 2100 miles on it so far and was looking at the S&S pump and plate. I would think it would still be fine at this point but then again.... Great work as always guys. I'm just outside Chicago but would love to have you guys do some work on my ride. The attention to detail is key....and Mike's a bada$$. 🤟
The rotating assembly of the M8 is very sturdy and true and most of the time they are in spec. The bike in the background I took apart this morning right before the video and wasn't worried about it not being in spec. That being said,. We measure every bike every time we get to that point whether it's an M8, a Twin Cam, evo, sportster, what ever.
So since runout is so important, what is the life expectancy of the of the Fueling and S&S products vs OEM. Looking at it in another perspective. How long is it before I’m going to have to change the S&S brass bronze bushing or the Fueling parts before they are worn out - or how often should I /we check the runout???? Thanks Blackfeather
So no mention of th 2019's. My bike was purchrd new in April of 2019. Not sure when actual manufacturing was done. But no problem, YET. But I did ask my dealership if they could swap out my OP and was told not under warranty cause there's no issue and if I was to pay for them to do it just for peace of mind, that they would charge 9 hours labor and the pump was only like $ 150 bucks. So I said hell with that, I'll ride it out. BUT u bet ur but my dealership isn't gunna just swap it out on their own, just cause it's not the latest an greatest from the moco.
@@MoonshineHarley Good to know. I could never get my own dealership to figure that out for me. They weren't sure. I very much appreciate u guys getting back to me. This does make me sleep a bit better at night now. I so wish I had a dealership like yours near me loaded with that talent y'all have. And push for power builds. Talk about a dream dealership!
Is newer Harley engines with increased ci getting harder to increase power? 114 can get to 131 ci, what about the new 117? Is it supposed to be cheaper for owners to upgrade? Or?
I have a twin cooled 131 and I put the fueling oil pump and cam plate in my question is if that oil pump is for water cooled heads would it be a problem if you add a oil cooler to that setup ?? the reason I'm asking is that I added a ultra cool to my bike just wondering if this will be a problem or not thanks randy
i have 2019 rgs with stage2 torque cam do i need to up grade oil pump and are cam plate.TI is all stock hd parts i love sound and power just wish had money to go bigger on bike.thanks for info you all shows us out here.keep rubber side down.
ws61200 Harley’s cylinder walls are too thin to handle the extra HP & TQ our setups make. Our Moonshine Horsepower 131 will hit the market in late June 2020 and it will have a 4 5/8 flywheel!
I have a street Bob 19, with stage 1 and does not feel comforting when there so much talk about the oil pump, should i change pump as a preventive measure?
It isn't a necessity. The oil pumps work fine the motor company just continually evolves. If you are upgrading the cam I would at least install the latest HD pump at that time. This video is just information to help. I get so many questions on oil pumps and cam plate options this will hopefully answer some of those questions.
Do you know the earliest build date that HD started using the newer backing plate with the seal??? I have heard that the latest oil pump starting going in the 5/19 and later builds, but did the backing plate with seal go in earlier builds??? Thanks guys!
The S&S and the fueling that's crazy on the oil pressure difference but on the S&S you guys did not mention that it has a brass bushing on the cam side in the fueling does not if I'm saying that right I would love to have the more oil pressure but what does the fueling idle at
Thanks you guys I have a question I have a 2020 road glide I did a cam upgrade I would like to put the fuelling Cam played in will my 2020 oil pump work with that I would think so thanks for all your great experience that you’re sharing with us makes such a difference very much appreciated from Don Schlegel in Vancouver Canada
When you brought up the "Crank Runout," Does S&S or Feuling, offer any alternatives, to compensate for a Runout of .005 or greater? I guess the point being, you'll have to replace the Crank, to make it take the aftermarket parts. The $$$ just keeps adding up! What is the main cause of Crankshaft Runout? I saw the cranks from 'Dark Horse,' and the stock or OEM cranks seemed to be a very shoddy design or manufacture. Always "Forged, or Billet," parts for the engine... Cast parts just seem to always be the weak link to everything else that can happen... And 'tapered Connecting Rod ends?' WTF! Why? Why create a weak or fast wear part? Why not make them as strong and solid as possible? You know it's going to be in a very harsh environment. Why start off with a limp-wristic Wrist Pin connection?
James Lanning We haven’t seen a single M8 flywheel fail yet. The stock M8 bottom end can handle a ton of power. No matter the manufacture there will always be better parts available from aftermarket manufacturers. If run out is grater than .005 we would send the Flywheel to Dark Horse.
@@MoonshineHarley Okay bud... But isn't "Runout," in itself, a failure, when it gets out of the tolerance range for the rest of the parts that connect to it? You have a tolerance range that cannot exceed .005". Harley Davidson may allow a little more "wiggle room," on the Crank, or "FlyWheel," Spindle, for their own parts... But if the Crankshaft spindle is beyond .005", then it cannot be used with the Feuling or S&S parts you have... Maybe not even the OEM parts... So, just say'n, if the Crankshaft IS out, above .005", on the Runout, then baring having a way to correct the Crank back to OEM specs, it must be replaced... Or the new oil pump, Camplate, and/ or other parts you just put in, won't last long enough for the check to clear! Guess my point is, "Excessive runout in the Crank/Flywheel spindle, IS a failure, even if the Crank/ Flywheel doesn't come apart..."
At .040” we would be looking rebuilding the flywheel. We would use a chain drive on anything more than .004”. All of our larger Race setups also use chain driven cams.
There isn't a SE Pump for the M8's yet. They are still trying to make the stock pump work and get it to dealers haha. I run the Feuling Race Pump, has the best Scavenge/Return ratio.
Sooo.2020 Fatboy 30th...when I do s&s cam, don’t worry about the pump so much? Seems aftermarket would be a waste if not bumping the power significantly.
I have a 2022 Street glide special putting a S&S 465 cam with a D&D exhaust and keeping the stock oil pump. I believe I am okay doing this what's you all opinion with that?
What is the part number on the newest HD oil pump? It is proving to be difficult to find the part number online, and with so many revisions, I want to make sure my dealer gets me the RIGHT oil pump.
Have you guys seen a lot of issues with the M8 cranks being out of spec? I have a sportster now and probably will get a new softail in the next few years.
Shit is rad. Keep it comin. I'm not even in the market for this shit and it's still fascinating. Can you do something on the crate 131 and it's competitors?
So it begs the question......certainly not a new question, but why would the crank have excessive runout? Unless the crank shifted due to a bad downshift or rear brake lockup, seems like HD should revise their quality control.
The crankshaft is allowed a certain amount of tolerance from the factory and is fine within the tolerance range. That tolerance is just tighter when using the more rigid components.
I know about pressed crank runout. All I am saying is that 5 thou is getting up there already but is considered "spec". Since you had to warn people not to use the other cam plates if runout is more than that, it suggests that either some people have shifted their cranks or Harley's QC needs to be improved.
@@guyconnell2250 the roller bearing bottom ends do not require the exacting tolerances as the Taper bearing ones do. The OEM spec is under .013" I believe. (I have not referenced that number for this post but it is right around there.
Mike, you guys finished a Stage 2 for me a couple of weeks back, using S&S components. It’s a ‘17 Ultra Ltd and had just under 33k miles. Did that first original M8 pump have any potential impact to the engine, such as oil starvation or issues related to the cavitation you mentioned?
M.V.O _Motorfast Understand. I was just wondering if there was any possibility of damage with the miles that were put on while the original pump was installed.
@@TheTexasBo no. Everything was in good order. We just updated it because that's what we do when we do any work and it isn't the most recent revision of parts.
Soo I have a 2018 road king with a stage one kit. You guys are making it sound like there is something wrong with my engine. Is there ? I'm happy with the way it runs and pulls through the gears. Will something happen to my engine? Because its doesn't have these up grades? Help me out here guys. Is there something wrong with the harley design? WOW
@@MoonshineHarley well shit. What’s the average your shop finds on crankshafts being 5 thousandths or less on run out? Large price difference in parts between a bolt in cam and a cam chest kit.
Thanks for the info. I was looking to get the feuling RACE series for when I went stage 2 on at 114 Fat Boy. Didnt know about the run out requirement. Was gonna go with a Woods 222 Cam, Feuling RACE pump and camplate, HP+Lifters, FuelMoto Pushrods. So if my crank is above 1/5000th I gotta ditch the feuling pump. What about swapping to Gear driven, does that help increase longevity? Or just helps with timing? Whats the runout limit on gear drive over chain?
What are your guys' opinions on breather bypass systems on the intake? Is this something I should leave alone or take care of? It seems strange to me to blow all that shit right into the intake side of my heads. Thanks for sharing fellas. Love what you do. Keep up the good work.
Roger Fulling We do it on some of our 150hp builds. We run them to a catch can we hide behind one of the rear bags. It’ll add a maintenance item that needs to be dealt with from time to time (drain the can).
@@MoonshineHarley it seems like that's the way it should be and makes complete sense to have on all these motors. I just don't seem to see it done very often, which seems strange to me because it makes complete sense to do so. I was looking at the DK Customs version of this simple yet genies solution to the problem.
2019 Road Glide Ultra, 2 weeks ago early Feb, 2020, I went with a S&S cam chest & oil pump and Woods 22X cam, adjustable push rods and new cam bearing. D&D 2 into 1 pipes. Vance and Hines FP3. Started project with 2300 miles on bike. Took me 3 days. 1day tear down, 1day rebuild, 1day pipes and then a week later got bold and went for 16"apes. YIKES, Every trick in the book but did it. 2 days to pull wires through Factory 47 16" bars with new heated grips. 4 hours total so far at highway speeds 65 to 100 mph no issues no squeals or knocks and no leaks. Have not told the wife yet. Maybe next month. Your videos helped choosing which route to go. Runs great, sounds great, feels great. Thank for you for your efforts on videos. Now if it will quit snowing and raining. sigh near St Louis area in Illinois
We are ready for a weather break too!
Of note, the bike is louder, so riding down the highway there is extra rumble to deal with, and full tank of gas goes about 205 instaed of 240 at 70 to 75 mph.
HIGHSPEED DRAG55 if
Your ever in the area we would recommend having us tune it for you. Your mileage can be improved afterwards. Glade you like
It! Nice setup!!!
May 2020 rode my 19 Electra glide standard up to Moonshine HD from Jax Florida. They put the S&S
Cam chest kit 465G in the bike. This was an Awsome change in bike performance! Harley wants your bike to last 2
Years. I want it to last way past that. My advice and Moonshine will tell you......if u open up that cam chest, get rid of
All that oem trash, not just the oil pump because the cam plate is just as bad as their oil pumps
Thanks so much Moonshine your technical info is much appreciated.Will definitely be taking all points mentioned when building my m8
Cruisin' with Cannibal thanks for
watching!
@@MoonshineHarley just subscribed and i encourage our techs to watch your channel also. Learn more here than school no bs ✌
The comedy is great and the info is also spot on. 😂😂😂😂
really appreciate these comparison videos you guys put out!
Thanks for the support.
In the process of putting my 124 together right now in my 2017 and noticed my pump has the groove for that seal, called the dealer today to get one. Wasn’t sure if it was really necessary but had heard about the seal fixing the cavitation issue. Glad to see it was a good idea to get the seal.
HDstreetshark it was a good idea!
"Shane, doesn't he look like he shouldn't be within 100yds of a school?"😂 That had me rollin!
🤣😂
Kinda explains why the Harley dyi and independent shops like crying and hating on Harley’s products. Looks like Harley’s on-point when it comes to finding out what’s wrong and how to fix it. It also shows how some are trying to force power through a part not designed to handle it as in this case. A stage upgrade with standard stock parts.
They cry because they don’t know how to leave the damn bike alone. I have a 2017 Street Glide Special , in Hard Candy HotRod Red Flake. Recall for the , secondary clutch actuator . Mine was fine, but it was changed anyway. Those who bitch all the time are either not a Harley owner or they messed the bike up.
@Ronin shit happens, it’s a Machine. Normally a broken compensating means a new compensator maybe a chain maybe a stater not a new motor so what else did you do to it?
@Ronin did you make a track bike without changing the compensator?
@Ronin I had a 2010 road king, with the 96ci twin cam motor. Stater went, leak at the transmission cause they put the hottest part of the exhaust next to it, so the gasket failed. All repaired under warranty no reoccurrence. Shit happens. If you think other brands don’t have issues your fooling yourself. I had a Suzuki Boulevard m50, when you ride it for a long time the transmission begins to slip. So much for Japanese Quality and reliability. As for Indian recalls they would actually start on their own while sitting in your garage,putting your family members at risk of being killed if you have a attached garage. They all have issues.
@Ronin it’s actually 99% true. It’s also a result of not properly letting it break-in, and using all those oils which have never been tested by Harley to use in their products.
Why didn’t HD fix these bikes as they being sold. I have 19 SGS with 4400 miles 9 months old with bike in pieces. . Needs pistons cylinders pump oil pan and valve seals from dealer under warranty after motor almost ruined from failing pump. Pump did not scavenge oil back to pump. Not happy with HD at this point. Bike was built may 2019 and people should know this issues and new oil pumps should be installed. It will save a lot of $ for everyone in the long run.
Because then they wouldn't be able to sell the screaming eagle oil pump and cam plate
This issue shine's a horrible insight on harley's attitude to their customers, and their perceived responsibly
Harley wouldn’t like seeing the last sentence lol
Thanks for the explanation. Had my oil pump replaced last month under warranty. Actually didn’t know I had an issue, took bike in for clutch recall, tech called a few days later and asked to keep the bike for another couple of days to replace the oil pump.
I am very happy he caught and corrected the issue.
What issue was the engine having to convince the dealer the oil pump needed to be updated?
Jim Koch ,
I was not having an issue with the bike, but the tech advised the oil pump needed to be replaced and did so under warranty. I did not notice any sumping or leakage, but had read in several articles about the early M8 motors having oil pump issues.
Mine is a 17 that I purchased in March of 18, left over. Warranty expires in two weeks.
@@rickyhawkins7407 I think it's interesting that they would volunteer to open the cam chest and replace the oil pump when it wasn't showing any signs of having issues when the bike was in for a recall. I was just wondering because I upgraded my oil pump when I changed the cam but otherwise would have left it alone.
Jim Koch The tech knew he had one of the first pumps so he did what’s best for his customer. Need more techs like him in the field.
Jamie Lima
So true...wish more techs were like this.
This info is what we need. Big appreciation
So I just replaced my stock 2017 oil pump that was working just fine. I was doing a Stage 2 so was advised to do the pump. Mild Stage 2 107 so went with brand new HD pump. The pump had two vanes let go during the dyno tune. Now Im going with what my builder recommended from the get go, a Fueling at $700 over the HD.
Great video when you finally got to the details.
I’ve got the 2018 117 breakout stage 3 never ever has an issue at all with anything!! Done 30,000km so far ridden in 2 degree weather and pissing down with rain and ridden in 52 degree weather...not a single issue
KostaAtlas awesome!!! Ride safe.
Moonshine Harley thanks mate!! Same to you
OK, so what's your measured runout and endplay??
Thanks guys....Glad I found your channel...you're funny, very informative and easy to follow. Enjoying how you explain everything in good detail along with the reasons, especially regarding important issues. Very cool...sub'd.
I binge watch your videos like my wife binge watches the bachelor . I’m a nerd for this stuff .
same. half time time i dont know what theyre talking about though.. lmao
I have a 2018 road glide ultra. I did as u recommended going with the 2020 HD oil pump. After, my bike had oil sumping problems. Then I installed s&s cam plate and pump. Life is good now
Interesting. Good info for all M8 owners! Keep up the good work guys.
You guys are so badass. I am in the Army and currently live in Virginia. I am moving to tx In June. I need to set something up so I can stop by and have you all install a cam!
Probably too early to tell but do you think the 2020’s will suffer from the previous years problems? I own a 2020 Street Glide and am debating between buying the extended service plan or upgrading to fueling or S&S parts. Not concerned with building a monster engine. Only concerned with long term reliability.
Knowing is half the battle
Yo Joe!
Play Josh it's me kids the TJ my dad's in California and the seahorse to buy at the Forum I have some money at somebody get for that trail tell him I said hi if you're over there, can you call me anytime call me at 9:06 you playing on my phone number 906
Hey guys this is great, thanks.. I understand that some/most late model 2019s have the upgrade... I can't tell when my motor was built, but the build date on my bike is 5/13/2019... I haven't noticed any issues.. and I'm running a California Stage III... hope you can help. Thanks again!
Good shit guys, pity our local (Australia) Harley people are not so forth comimg with oil pump info
We are so well versed because we do 5-10 engine builds a week. Most shops do not get that kind of exposure so they aren't aware.
My 114 fat boy with a November 2018 motor build date has the rear seal on the pump.
Just installed new S&S pump and plate today along with 475 camshaft lifters,cuffs and Quickee pushrods.
My new pump also had the recess to accept the crankshaft seal o-ring
Philip Roberts Perfect! Do you have a good tuner close to you?
@@MoonshineHarley no Dyno close to me,I flashed a base map on my FP-3 and will run a auto tune at some point.
Im playing with the idea jumping ship to a DynoJet power vision,but im going wait till I have run a few tanks of fuel on auto tune with the FP-3.
I haven't ridden it yet as I only did the work on it yesterday and the weather isn't great here in the UK.
Philip Roberts the fp3 is a terrible tuner with very limited capabilities. The power vision is a great interface and can adjust all parameters. Also I’d recommend getting target tune to really have the bike dialed in
Don't believe everything you hear. Fp3 has been great for me and service has been top notch.
NYC Shouting Tennessee Moonshine Harley out with love!Keep it up.EXCEPTIONAL VIDEO!I gotta pass through there one day.
Thank you.
Levi Evans make sure you find
Mike and Me Jamie when you do.
You're Welcome.Will do!
Helpful info on Identifying the pump models and the warning not to turn up the pump pressure but Only 4 OEM revisions? I dont think you guys were quite prepared for this talk.. On the cam plates I feel someone needs to point out a few things here.. That OEM cam plate that Nameless mentioned, is not stamped aluminum, but cast Al, and I don't think the S&S is 7071 Aluminum (but is it's the only one with a brass bearing) , however the Fueling Race series is.. Magnets will not will not collect all metal..but ferrious metals only. Though Jamie said "same as the others" when talking of the screen in the S&S, I dont think the Fueling or OEM oil pumps have Screens..Also as Jamie mentioned, the .005 crank runout tolerance and measurement is not on the "very end" of the crank, but measured where the bearing will ride.
I can't, I just can't. At least they didn't make you wait another 3 years to get the M8 close to okay.
Love these comparison and tech videos, keep it up!
Just installed the S&S 475C cam, oil pump, oil pump plate, etc...so im good not having installed the oem o-ring behind the pump? Great content subscribed.
We would have installed the o-ring. The o-ring provides extra benefits.
3 years ago
And Both specs where marked "in writhing " as 'Fueling'... 11:54 ...
Ok excellent video for M8 owners. How about some info for folks like me looking to purchase a 2017 ultra limited low. Should I stay away from the early models and save enough $ to purchase a 2020. And if I do purchase a 2017 what can I expect to pay to have it upgraded to the 2020 oil pump.
Maybe I'm confused however you stated that when you upgrade to a larger cam you get more heat. My understanding from all info I have heard is 1st you will ave done a stage 1 before a cam upgrade which the stage 1 is suppose to help run cooler because of it running less lean from factory. Then with a cam upgrade it would be logical to add even more fuel which if more fuel equals cooler running then how can a cam upgrade produce more heat. Also if your crank pinion is not within tolerance for the new cam plate then wouldn't it be out of tolerance from the factory there by chewing up your factory cam plate?Just trying to learn . Thanks.
I want Moonshine HD to handle all my performance upgrades. 2019 SGS. Stage 1 done already.
Would it be advantageous putting a new cam chest and pump on stock motor I’m not really sure I want more than stock. 117’s will get to the speed limit in a hurry.
You guys are so deep in the smallest of details that I’m not sure to let no one do a big build on my bike but you guys unfortunately I live in Miami not Tennessee.
tacmac95 we pick up and ship all over the country! We are in Florida monthly. Please call the shop and ask for Aaron or Jamie when you’re ready 615-274-4170
Have you guys found a lot of M8 crank shafts that were over 5 thousands run out ? I am running the fueling pump and never asked if the builder checked the run out. I am sure he did.
Freedom Rider not a lot but we do get them from time to time.
Good luck getting one from S & S. I’ve been waiting 5 months just to hear something. Horrible customer relations.
fuel moto
My 2017 ultra m8 need all your updates and your oil pump cam plate fueling bearing adjustable pushrods and roller bearing holders gasket tuning pleas
i just got a 2020 street bob , not wanting to much more so stock oil pump will be fine for stage 2 with cam and tune TBR and air filter .be fast enough for me for a while ,
You guys should just have your own brand of bikes and take the HD name off of it! Great shop!
always top notch ... great stuff , guys !
Great video guys and information, always like how objective and honest you guys are in your videos👍 Best m8 tech videos on you tube 👍👍
Thank you. We try to just put out information. Not bash or put our opinions of manufacturers on the internet.
Aggie Frazao Thanks brother!
Are you guys coming across a lot of newer bikes that the run out is out of spec?
I have a '19 RGS with only 2100 miles on it so far and was looking at the S&S pump and plate. I would think it would still be fine at this point but then again....
Great work as always guys. I'm just outside Chicago but would love to have you guys do some work on my ride. The attention to detail is key....and Mike's a bada$$. 🤟
The rotating assembly of the M8 is very sturdy and true and most of the time they are in spec. The bike in the background I took apart this morning right before the video and wasn't worried about it not being in spec. That being said,. We measure every bike every time we get to that point whether it's an M8, a Twin Cam, evo, sportster, what ever.
Thank my lucky stars I waited til 11/2020 to buy my RGS!
Awesome video guys. What is the shop time to replace the oil pump in the 2017 fltrx? Thanks
My 2020 model was born on 7-2019 . Does it have the newest oil pump or the pump right before it?
Gentlemen thank you for this very informative video I have a 21 roadglide ready to upgrade one question what is your preference fueling or S&S thanks
So since runout is so important, what is the life expectancy of the of the Fueling and S&S products vs OEM. Looking at it in another perspective. How long is it before I’m going to have to change the S&S brass bronze bushing or the Fueling parts before they are worn out - or how often should I /we check the runout????
Thanks
Blackfeather
Do you check the pressure on the pump before install? My TC3 plate was set to 35psi which was great for stock. The 08 Zippers 117 needed 57psi
So no mention of th 2019's. My bike was purchrd new in April of 2019. Not sure when actual manufacturing was done. But no problem, YET. But I did ask my dealership if they could swap out my OP and was told not under warranty cause there's no issue and if I was to pay for them to do it just for peace of mind, that they would charge 9 hours labor and the pump was only like $ 150 bucks. So I said hell with that, I'll ride it out. BUT u bet ur but my dealership isn't gunna just swap it out on their own, just cause it's not the latest an greatest from the moco.
Shane Eayrs the 2019’s have the newer pump so you are good to go.
@@MoonshineHarley Good to know. I could never get my own dealership to figure that out for me. They weren't sure. I very much appreciate u guys getting back to me. This does make me sleep a bit better at night now. I so wish I had a dealership like yours near me loaded with that talent y'all have. And push for power builds. Talk about a dream dealership!
Is newer Harley engines with increased ci getting harder to increase power? 114 can get to 131 ci, what about the new 117? Is it supposed to be cheaper for owners to upgrade? Or?
I have a twin cooled 131 and I put the fueling oil pump and cam plate in
my question is
if that oil pump is for water cooled heads
would it be a problem if you add a oil cooler to that setup ??
the reason I'm asking is that I added a ultra cool to my bike
just wondering if this will be a problem or not
thanks randy
i have 2019 rgs with stage2 torque cam do i need to up grade oil pump and are cam plate.TI is all stock hd parts i love sound and power just wish had money to go bigger on bike.thanks for info you all shows us out here.keep rubber side down.
Another great and informative video really enjoy the info you guys provide
When are you guys gonna test aftermarket cams on Harley’s new 131ci crate motor?
ws61200 Harley’s cylinder walls are too thin to handle the extra HP & TQ our setups make. Our Moonshine Horsepower 131 will hit the market in late June 2020 and it will have a 4 5/8 flywheel!
I have a street Bob 19, with stage 1 and does not feel comforting when there so much talk about the oil pump, should i change pump as a preventive measure?
It isn't a necessity. The oil pumps work fine the motor company just continually evolves. If you are upgrading the cam I would at least install the latest HD pump at that time. This video is just information to help. I get so many questions on oil pumps and cam plate options this will hopefully answer some of those questions.
Do you know the earliest build date that HD started using the newer backing plate with the seal??? I have heard that the latest oil pump starting going in the 5/19 and later builds, but did the backing plate with seal go in earlier builds???
Thanks guys!
Great video guys, thanks for sharing. i don't know whether to go from my evo to a twin cam or a m8 with all these things with the m8's
RSB Harley M8 all day!!! It makes
Power easily and has less problems than its predecessors by far.
keep the evo
The S&S and the fueling that's crazy on the oil pressure difference but on the S&S you guys did not mention that it has a brass bushing on the cam side in the fueling does not if I'm saying that right I would love to have the more oil pressure but what does the fueling idle at
They did mention it in there first video...comparing the above three oil pumps
What is the part # for the 2020 oil pump, cam chest? My runout is to much for S&S or Feuling
Thanks you guys I have a question I have a 2020 road glide I did a cam upgrade I would like to put the fuelling Cam played in will my 2020 oil pump work with that I would think so thanks for all your great experience that you’re sharing with us makes such a difference very much appreciated from Don Schlegel in Vancouver Canada
When you brought up the "Crank Runout," Does S&S or Feuling, offer any alternatives, to compensate for a Runout of .005 or greater? I guess the point being, you'll have to replace the Crank, to make it take the aftermarket parts. The $$$ just keeps adding up!
What is the main cause of Crankshaft Runout?
I saw the cranks from 'Dark Horse,' and the stock or OEM cranks seemed to be a very shoddy design or manufacture.
Always "Forged, or Billet," parts for the engine... Cast parts just seem to always be the weak link to everything else that can happen...
And 'tapered Connecting Rod ends?' WTF! Why? Why create a weak or fast wear part? Why not make them as strong and solid as possible? You know it's going to be in a very harsh environment. Why start off with a limp-wristic Wrist Pin connection?
James Lanning We haven’t seen a single M8 flywheel fail yet. The stock M8 bottom end can handle a ton of power.
No matter the manufacture there will always be better parts available from aftermarket manufacturers.
If run out is grater than .005 we would send the Flywheel to Dark Horse.
@@MoonshineHarley Okay bud... But isn't "Runout," in itself, a failure, when it gets out of the tolerance range for the rest of the parts that connect to it? You have a tolerance range that cannot exceed .005".
Harley Davidson may allow a little more "wiggle room," on the Crank, or "FlyWheel," Spindle, for their own parts...
But if the Crankshaft spindle is beyond .005", then it cannot be used with the Feuling or S&S parts you have... Maybe not even the OEM parts...
So, just say'n, if the Crankshaft IS out, above .005", on the Runout, then baring having a way to correct the Crank back to OEM specs, it must be replaced... Or the new oil pump, Camplate, and/ or other parts you just put in, won't last long enough for the check to clear!
Guess my point is, "Excessive runout in the Crank/Flywheel spindle, IS a failure, even if the Crank/ Flywheel doesn't come apart..."
What about the oil pump for the water cooled Ultra.Its a different part number to the oil cooled pump ??
Excellent info thanks for all your efforts... much appreciated
Digging that paint job
did you use chain drive once run out was 4000th? great videos, ty
At .040” we would be looking rebuilding the flywheel. We would use a chain drive on anything more than .004”. All of our larger Race setups also use chain driven cams.
@@MoonshineHarley thank you for the reply.. been learning a lot more on this topic esp from some of your videos.
How do the new Screaming Eagle pumps stack up in comparison?
There isn't a SE Pump for the M8's yet. They are still trying to make the stock pump work and get it to dealers haha. I run the Feuling Race Pump, has the best Scavenge/Return ratio.
Sooo.2020 Fatboy 30th...when I do s&s cam, don’t worry about the pump so much? Seems aftermarket would be a waste if not bumping the power significantly.
cembandit not needed but they do
provide extra benefits. Up to you.
I have a 2022 Street glide special putting a S&S 465 cam with a D&D exhaust and keeping the stock oil pump. I believe I am okay doing this what's you all opinion with that?
Nice job !!
Fueling Race Series oil pump and cam plate vs S&S oil pump and cam plate on a Harley M8 114?
Carl Broderick both great!
I f#*kin love you guys, wish I would’ve known about you guys along time ago. “Cause shit changes@!!!!
Thanks Great video! How about the H-D SE pump are they need good?? #TwinCam #2016 #FLSS
Yes they are good upgrades for the TC.
What is the part number on the newest HD oil pump? It is proving to be difficult to find the part number online, and with so many revisions, I want to make sure my dealer gets me the RIGHT oil pump.
what is the part number for the new oil pump set up
Could you review the new screaming eagle cam plate for M8?
Mike, are these pumps the same in the softail line, or does this video pertain to touring only?
They are the same in all the M8 engines.
How does the S&S or Fueling pump compare to the SE upgrade?
If all I’m doing is a cam do I need to update the pump on a 2020 117?
Have you guys seen a lot of issues with the M8 cranks being out of spec? I have a sportster now and probably will get a new softail in the next few years.
No. They are very well made.
All HD oem motors are junk.
Use a "DARKHORSE" CRANK or no matter how much money you spend building a motor, all you will have is a boat anchor.
What are the tolerances for the S&S oil pump set up. How much pinion shaft runout is too much?
Jamie
Just stand there and don't comment please.
Run out? Really. It's not an issue for cam plate.
We need to see the pump not the hands . Thanks for the video
Hi can you tell me the part number on the newest Harley oil pump for oil cooled M8 harley
I have a 21 ultra bout to get a cam swap installed should s high pressure pump be installed
So what if you buy the S&S and your pinion shaft is over .005? Whats the fix?
Shit is rad. Keep it comin. I'm not even in the market for this shit and it's still fascinating. Can you do something on the crate 131 and it's competitors?
Schweet paint job on that RG 🤘
So it begs the question......certainly not a new question, but why would the crank have excessive runout? Unless the crank shifted due to a bad downshift or rear brake lockup, seems like HD should revise their quality control.
The crankshaft is allowed a certain amount of tolerance from the factory and is fine within the tolerance range. That tolerance is just tighter when using the more rigid components.
I know about pressed crank runout. All I am saying is that 5 thou is getting up there already but is considered "spec". Since you had to warn people not to use the other cam plates if runout is more than that, it suggests that either some people have shifted their cranks or Harley's QC needs to be improved.
@@guyconnell2250 the roller bearing bottom ends do not require the exacting tolerances as the Taper bearing ones do. The OEM spec is under .013" I believe. (I have not referenced that number for this post but it is right around there.
How does the screaming eagle oil pump and cam plate stack up to these?
Yes. We run them on our larger builds.
Nice VDO, i have 2018 RG and Im looking to upgrade the Oil pump, What is a part Number for M8 2020 Oil pump kit ? Thank you.
You say S&S is 45 psi relief set why mine sits above 60 when cold
Mike, you guys finished a Stage 2 for me a couple of weeks back, using S&S components. It’s a ‘17 Ultra Ltd and had just under 33k miles. Did that first original M8 pump have any potential impact to the engine, such as oil starvation or issues related to the cavitation you mentioned?
We updated it to a 2020 for you 😉. We never reassemble an engine without the most current parts.
M.V.O _Motorfast Understand. I was just wondering if there was any possibility of damage with the miles that were put on while the original pump was installed.
@@TheTexasBo no. Everything was in good order. We just updated it because that's what we do when we do any work and it isn't the most recent revision of parts.
M.V.O _Motorfast Well, thanks again for your work. You guys are aces and I’m making recommendations for you every chance I get.
@@TheTexasBo meeting you was out pleasure! We will see you soon.
What's the part number for the newest harley oil pump?
They only made the first change for the stage 3 and 4 bikes, not the stock or stage 1 & 2
All the factory units assembled after a new part number revision is released come with the new component. That is across the board.
Soo I have a 2018 road king with a stage one kit. You guys are making it sound like there is something wrong with my engine. Is there ? I'm happy with the way it runs and pulls through the gears. Will something happen to my engine? Because its doesn't have these up grades? Help me out here guys. Is there something wrong with the harley design? WOW
is there a way to have a shop determine what your run out is before purchasing either cam chest kit?
Yes but at that point you have 50% of the cam job done.
@@MoonshineHarley well shit. What’s the average your shop finds on crankshafts being 5 thousandths or less on run out? Large price difference in parts between a bolt in cam and a cam chest kit.
What if the pinion shaft runout is more than the what the spec is what needs to be done?
Thanks for the info. I was looking to get the feuling RACE series for when I went stage 2 on at 114 Fat Boy.
Didnt know about the run out requirement.
Was gonna go with a Woods 222 Cam, Feuling RACE pump and camplate, HP+Lifters, FuelMoto Pushrods.
So if my crank is above 1/5000th I gotta ditch the feuling pump.
What about swapping to Gear driven, does that help increase longevity? Or just helps with timing? Whats the runout limit on gear drive over chain?
If your crank is above .005 of runout you have to go to a different setup or get the runout fixed #timex bearings
What are your guys' opinions on breather bypass systems on the intake? Is this something I should leave alone or take care of? It seems strange to me to blow all that shit right into the intake side of my heads.
Thanks for sharing fellas. Love what you do. Keep up the good work.
Roger Fulling We do it on some of
our 150hp builds. We run them to a catch can we hide behind one of the rear bags. It’ll add a maintenance item that needs to be dealt with from time to time (drain the can).
@@MoonshineHarley it seems like that's the way it should be and makes complete sense to have on all these motors. I just don't seem to see it done very often, which seems strange to me because it makes complete sense to do so. I was looking at the DK Customs version of this simple yet genies solution to the problem.