Yes, 2020 RKS, replaced the oil pump and cam plate for Feuling RS pump and plate, even though it wasn't really necessary. No regrets though, the higher capacity is a good thing to have.
@@joetownable yes. My 19 Heritage burnt up the heads in my M8 before the oil pump was replaced. The 2020 models and newer have the new Gerotors in the pump that fixes the issue. It is a problem on all M8s
Great video - what I do not understand is how Harley Davidson claims to test ride new builds before production for a million miles and never saw the oil sump issue
As I learned about the problems with some of the M8 engines in this regard I entered a preemptive strike on my '17 M8 and had a S&S oil pump, Cam plate, lifters and cuff's, adjustable push rods, and while we were there a performance CR480 cam, Tuner, and a Dyno tune on top of the previously installed Stage one with a performance head pipe. Then added a Feuling vented dip stick. Bike runs great and should now be good for the long haul with nearly a forty percent increase in power!
So a should be reliable about 118 HP to the wheel. I did a stage 3 to retain warranty. A later 2019 it got the newer pump. Got 116 HP and later added the dip stick vent. 17k miles so far and zero issues.
Nice build. Just did the same thing but with the Zipper’s 468 cam. These motors are a Beauty but they do need a little tlc. For Harley to let this stuff happen and not own it is pretty shitty. I’m lucky enough to fix my own stuff so it’s cheap but still. Pretty bad mojo on them.
I had one. HAD one. It used excessive oil. A quart in 1000 miles. The air cleaner was soaked. It was still under warranty and Harley refused to fix it. I felt totally stranded by Harley. I now ride a 2022 Goldwing. I went for reliability.
I’m with you on that. My 2018 sgs just started making noise. Although I’m a Harley enthusiast I’m gonna get something more reliable (non Harley)to get out and about.
I didn't have any of those questions because I figured I'd have it serviced before I noticed anything off. 2018 107 FatBoy FLFB . Preparing myself for a longer ride, pre ride inspection and noticed 1 drop of motor oil under the bike. I began to see shiny layer of oil on bottom of everything the air intake, crank case, radiator, and frame, etc. Then I looked at UA-cam and your video and I'm grateful to you,, for the time you took to explain this issue. I'm gonna be addressing everything all options and Look forward to seeing more, and Thanks again... 🤘😎👍
This should never have even cropped its ugly head up. As a motorcycle tech with over 40 years experience, Harley Davidson is the worst motorcycle manufacturer that completely relies on experienced service techs and outside companies finding and fixing common problems with these bikes. Then they purposely install crap parts right from the factory and again the aftermarket has to make them whole. So what did they decide to do after seeing the money the other companies were charging for a part to fix the bikes. Haha they said " hey lets build the correct part that we should have installed at the factory and call them upgrades viola, Screaming Eagle." It's utterly ridiculous. The amount they charge for these bikes is outrageous. I have a buddy who spent $50.000 dollars on a cvo Street glide that supposedly has all the screaming eagle upgrades and had the oil pump fail and 2 weeks later the compensator broke in half. When he got it back after a month at the dealer, mind you they still want their monthly payment on the loan guess what he said tom this thing does not feel right. I told him i knew exactly what was wrong with it and he brought it into my shop so i could check the crank run out. He definitely had sump issues but the run out was at .008. This is a damned CVO. More like a CVFJ. These 90 day wonders that they have at dealer services said he has no issues. Now he can't tell them what i found as me digging into the engine would void his warranty, he just takes it back once a month to document his complaints. I told him to just wait until he's almost out of warranty and tell them to go to hell and that he is going to take it to an outside tech to find out whats going on and then just sue Harley. I have a Triumph Bonneville, a Kawasaki sr , and a Yamaha. Cruiser and lastly my 06 Road King. I love my road king but its not going to make me sell the others. In my opinion the customers should start a class action lawsuit and they should be investigated by the government. They have far to long enjoyed customers that are loyal. The government should make them fix every piece of shit parts they have installed on these bikes. Sonny Barger said it best " if we would have known back then what we know today we would be riding Honda's.
When Harley introduced the M8 engine they boasted about the "million miles of testing" they had done prior to its release. You mean to tell me they never had an engine sump during these million miles? I smell BS.
So if this is a known and curable problem by replacing the oil pump, why doesn't HD offer this upgrade gratis for all the original owners of the M8 rather then once again leaving it to the consumer to have to upgrade an engineering flaw?! These motorcycles aren't cheap and to have a 2019 product requiring the owner to fix it while it's still being paid for is BS!
Yeah, I find it UNBELIEVABLE and downright arrogant really. I now ride a Kawasaki(and a very old Triumph) after owning four Evo era HDs (which were very reliable of course). I just would not buy a new HD with the M8 problems I have read about. And WHY should we just accept that there are "always going to be" problems in the first year of a new motor? - not so if its Japanese let me remind people! It's just unacceptable in this day and age to pay a premium price for a machine and NOT get absolute dependability.
Thanx! I bought a 2018 M8 used from HD. Just ran into this problem. It’s in the shop now-thank God I had purchased the extended warranty 😎 I’ll buy the vented dipstick as well. Thanks for the detailed info
I really like your videos and one of them helped me avoid major engine failure.So I owe you a big Thank You.I have a 2014 Dyna Low Rider with the 103Ci and I was watching your video on unleashing the power of the 103 with a cam. The Woods TW222 really got my interest peaked.And since I still had just two months left on my extended warranty I thought what the hell I am going to put it in and not worry about the remainder My good friend who works as a Harley Mechanic was going to do the job for me at his house and he phoned me the next day to tell me of push rod damage in the block. He put it all back together and I took it to Harley Davidson and they found more damage to the pistons and crank so I got a new Long block on warranty so now I went fro 60.000KMS to zero KMS And that Woods TW222 cam is such a power maker I love it.If your video had not inspired me to put that cam in I would have rode around all summer with engine damage that I did not know of only to have my warranty expire in August and then I would have been screwed. So huge Thanks
Thank you! Dang you scored big time on that extended warranty! You had a good mechanic too that said hey uh let's put it back together and take it to Harley! Sucks about your motor but hard to complain about a new long block and Woods cam! Hopefully they will get you back rolling again quick!
@@thedieselpig4448 I might have not explained it right it was a lifter failed and caused damage to the lifter bores and cam shaft. upon disassembly the Tech found that the crank shaft had failed and the connecting rods were binding on the crank shaft also damaged the piston and cylinders as the connecting rods not moving properly due to binding that's right off the work order so it should be a better explanation .
@@dry509 I really don't know what caused this kind of damage as I never rode it really hard or lugged it really bad for that matter changed my oil religiously so I don't really know if it's common to the 96 or the 103 someone with more knowledge than I would have to tell you that
Thank you for sharing, yeah if it's before 2020 they have the old style oil pump. It's good to keep an eye out for the issue or even better go ahead and upgrade the oil pump.
My 2019 Ultra 114? 50K miles, meticulously maintained. Modifications- HD Stage 1 , TAB slip ons, everything else is stock. At the dealership for over 3 months for the transmission oil transferring into the primary, third fix attempt . Also major internal engine damage due to the oil pump partially failing. Symptom was almost 2quarts of oil being consumed every 5K miles, dealership was advised several times of oil consumption when it was at a quart every 5K miles and stated “that’s within spec”. It didn’t smoke, and it wasn’t noticeably down on power, but failed the compression leak down test at 72% on the front cylinder. Great motorcycles if you ride under 5K miles per year, and you better have the ESP warranty!!! Damn I wish Victory was still in business!!!
Wished you mention Trask CheckM8. I originally had the Feuling dipstick but switched over the check m8 and Trask tech support said I didn’t need to run the dipstick with their product. So far so good.
I have a 2010 TC96 Superglide C. Thanks to your and commenters on your channel i changed my Compinsator/tensioner. Also opened up Cam chest and did all the proper checks. Looks like i got a good one! Unfortunately it will be my last HD. Love the vids thanks!
I see a lot a people saying with new engines there's always problems and that is true but that is how all things are done. They will eventually have all the kinks panded out through trial and error. Although I do agree they should swap it free of charge if you buy a new car and they have a recall and your car is still under warranty free fix. Also people complain about the tc88 not having enough power but that engine was made for a long time other than the chain tensioner that engine is solid hence the reason I still have an tc88 in mine. Truth is anything new coming out is gonna have issues and Harley should fix that issue especially when we spend $30-$45k on our bikes
Still riding an '05 Deluxe. Rode a Shovel for 20 years prior. Very interesting video. They all have their issues; but over a few years, each engine proves to be an upgrade; even though it's hard to beat the sound of a well built and tuned Shovel! What I noticed when the M8 first came out was how mechanically quiet they were. I honestly could only hear exhaust music.
Would like to see more vids on m8 oil pump options. I have a 2019 Ultra and took it on a 7000 mile trip last summer. No issues at all - rock solid. I did the Feuling dipstick but not til after my trip - had a terrible experience with the A1 with customer service - they pick the lowest cost shipper (USPS) and when your shipment disappears or is delayed for a month they won't help and will push back and say it's your problem. I would streer away from A1. I am going to upgrade my oil pump to the S&S just to make sure I never have an issue and to move more oil / keep the engine cooler.
The first step is a leak down and compression test before getting out the parts darts. There is some incredible information on another UA-cam channel showing tear downs and what caused the sumping and a cam plate and oil pump did not resolve the problem.
good stuff man. i have a 2018 heritage and put the 131 kit in from harley. they put in the fueler dipstick and upgraded the oil pump when they did it. i guess i never noticed it before as you said as to long trips. most of mine was about and hour riding mostly. good info for sure. and i think the M8 is going to be the best engine ever.
I upgraded my 2018 Breakout 114 with a Woods 22XE cam/lifters, S&S camplate/oil pump/pushrods, tappet cuffs, chain tensioner, and Andrews crank sprocket. I had previously installed a fueling vented dipstick that ran into a breather fitting under the bike. After the install of the new oil pump, cam and other things, it now pushes oil out of the fueling line and out the breather fitting. I end up getting oil on my back tire and under the bike. I asked fueling about it and they told me that there must be to much oil in the bike, but I have verified with a shop that there is not too much oil in the bike. Gonna go back to a stock dipstick.
You've done some solid work to that bike, I bet is screams with that Wood Cam in there. It shouldn't be pushing oil out of that dipstick with the correct factory level though.
@@GixxerFoo So I installed the stock dipstick and it shows about 8 ounces too much. The fueling dipstick shows just below full. So the lesson here is that the fueling dipstick shows a normal level when it is above normal oil levels.
My 2018 107 Breakout has lifter clatter. Bought the bike right off the showroom floor and only has 23000 klms. Scheduled to taken back in to the dealership to look into the problem. Pretty dam frustrating given the cost of the bike low klms and after Harley has been building engines for almost 120 years.
I did the same thing on my TC-88 but went with Feuling cam kit and S&S 510 cams. Bike runs great now. I will always keep this bike but I am shopping for a new Road King as a primary ride
@@GixxerFoo to be thorough, I installed the following from S&S: 551 easy start cam kit, oil pump, cam support plate, hydraulic cam chain tensioners, pushrods and lifters. My mechanic told me it was recommended to install all of it if I were to change the cams. Finally, my local Harley Davidson dealer Dyno tuned the bike with a new TTS Mastertune. It certainly feels like a whole different bike. Ironically enough, the bike won’t start on its first try when completely cold and usually it does on its second try. However, when hot, it starts much easier than before. It should be noted that I had previously installed aTwin Power 34 Tooth Compensator Eliminator which facilitated hot startups. Why doesn’t the bike starts right up sometimes when complete cold after the S&S parts installed? is beyond me. Maybe someone can shed some light on this. I’ll probably call S&S about this issue in the near future. As an update to this comment, I contacted S&S and I was told is due to the low compression that the 96ci engine has.
Yes I have a 2023 114 m8 I've noticed, it seems like my front cylinder isn't getting enough oil. Or that's what it sounds like. I'm gonna check out that vented dip stick. Thanks
Instead of the Feuling vented dipstick, you may also want to consider the Trask vented transmission cover. It's arguably more practical, and better situated. No need to uncouple the vent hose from the dipstick, or burning your hands (since the Feuling dipstick is made from billet aluminum) when checking the oil. Plus the vented transmission cover vents from the highest point in the crankcase, so less chance oil will be pushed through the hose and filter. I personally have the Feuling vented dipstick, but if I had to do it again, I'd get the Trask vented transmission cover.
2020 Sportster 1200 NS fuel injected evo. Fun ride next to my 83 Low Rider. Long trips on the shovel, short rides on the evo. Debating whether to get a 2021 Road King standard.
I'm heading out Tuesday on an 1100 mile roadie on my 02 RKC. No sumping issues. No blow-by issues. No nothing. Bike just hums along nicely mile after mile. (tensioner upgrade done at 52K)
Basically, now it's lost it's identity on the web site. They put it under the Street now, which that series failed miserably with those XG's. I guess they are trying to save the Street name with Sportster.
The PCV system is critical, because it maintains a strong vacuum on the crankcase. If your breather is vented to the atmosphere, then the blow-by gasses will slightly pressurize the crankcase. A small amount of positive pressure in the crankcase, will push oil into the cylinders, past the oil rings, and valve seals, and it will also push the oil out onto the ground, through the main seals, and case flanges. However, consider the contrary situation. If the crankcase is vented to the intake manifold, through a flow limiter, (a PCV valve is an air flow limiter) then the strong vacuum of the intake manifold creates vacuum on the crankcase. Having the crankcase under a vacuum, means oil is not drawn into the combustion chamber and oil is not going to creep past the main seals, or pushed out of the engine onto the ground. An engine with leaking main seals, probably has a blocked PCV valve system, because the PCV system should create a constant vacuum on the crankcase, and around the main seals. Having the crankcase under a constant vacuum (except during wide open throttle, when the manifold vacuum temporarily goes away) then the oil is "sucked" into the engine, and not pushed "out" of the engine. This is why you need to consider a proper PCV oil ventilation system, because ideally, you really want to maintain vacuum on the crankcase. The other major benefit to having a proper vacuum in your crankcase, is that the piston rings are "sucked" down onto the pistons, so your pistons seal better, and you actually make more horsepower. As well, the oil ring functions better when the crankcase is under a vacuum, and less oil leaking into the combustion chamber, effectively reduces detonation from oil vapor.
2019 Fatboy 114....at 751 miles I did the following: S&S 475 cam chest kit and oil pump w/timken cam bearing. S&S hydraulic cam chain tensioner. Fueling dipstick vent. HPi throttle body, intake, air cleaner and external breathers. Royal T exhaust pipe. Dynojet tuner and tuned at 114hp/129tq. Bareknuckle oil cooler cover. Protect that stock oil cooler. One kicked up rock that punctures it and you will have one hell of a mess on your hands.
Harley-davidson has been making V-Twin engines since 1909. You'd think they would have perfected it by now. The best V-Twin engine Harley-davidson ever built was the sportster/XR 750 engine Designed in 1955. You would think they'd keep the same design and just make it bigger ! WTF, give me a 4 cam (geared) engine with 4 valve heads and 120 cubic inches and stop all this other Bullshit !
Blame the EPA. Harley would have happily kept some old ass engine and save the development costs. Of course they would probably be out of business over low horsepower numbers. Then you would have been begging Harley to build a new engine because they should have been able to build a newer motor with more HP. I don't think you would ever be happy no matter what they do. Also, nobody is stopping you from buying and modifying a sportster/xr750 engine. The M8 is a fun engine and the new PanAmerica engine (once it works through its growing pains) is a great engine as well.
You are right. EPA have nothing to do here. all manufactures have already and very long ago upgraded their engines to the nowadays standards, Harley still selling shit engines to the idiots who buy them 😂🤣 please shoot me...
@@TeensierPython I have modified sportsters and that motor is bullet proof compared to a twin cam or M8. And M8 is just an old evolution design with a 4 valve head and more cubes. And still it has reliability problems. Most reliable harley engine is the sportster engine hands down. Vrod is a Porsche engine which is pretty awesome but really isn't a harley motor. I just can't understand why harley wants soo much money for an inferior engine. They just make it bigger so it's better ? LOL 😆 Once again harley-davidson has been making V-Twin engines for over 100 yrs and still has reliability problems. I guess you like tinkering more than riding !
@@TeensierPython Sportster engine was designed in the 50s and guess what ! It passes EPA in 2021 with fuelinjection. Sportster engine per cc puts out more horsepower than any other harley-davidson engine !
I have a 2017 Street Glide. The dealer replaced the oil pump assembly cover when the stage 2 was done. Looks like I wiil have it opened up again to replace the oil pump.
New pump help mask the real issue. Piston oil jets are probably not torqued properly from the factory and some also have been known to be stuck open. Either way stuck open or loose it'll flood the engine case and also take away from the lifters being oiled properly at idle.
I had mine checked when I did the big bore kit. They weren't loose, but they weren't torqued down properly either. That's on a 2020 RKS, so 3 years after the M8 was introduced, this is still an ongoing issue.
If one have the money to afford an exorbitant dinosaur from Harley, one have the money to support Harley a bit further in their madness 🤣🤣😁. Harley only making money with their name
I'm still riding an early TC88 which had the tensioner issue. It seems like every time Harley comes out with a new engine there is some sort of factory defect. I don't understand why they're not forced to recall the affected bikes and fix the defect of the moment. This just shows that Harley doesn't give a shit about their customers, their only goal is to clean out our wallets.
The Feuling Vented Dipstick has a one-way valve that allows crankcase pressure to vent to atmosphere while NOT allowing suction on the upward stroke of the pistons to pull air back into the case. Much better than a simple vent to atmosphere!
It really is as it doesn't allow more air to be introduced into the crank case, they really thought through that design and that's why it cost so much.
I upgraded my 17 ultra to the S&S oil pump. Bike ran smoothly and alot cooler. If you can afford to do this I would highly recommend it. Compared to the stock oil pump it is a much higher quality.
@@billsteeves2974 stage 2 kit was a cam ,cam plate, push rods, inner bearing,oil pump, lifters and cuffs. About 2200 at my local shop. Already had full exhaust and tuner with wide band, stage 1
@@GixxerFoo 2018 , sold in late 2017. Before the update, I cleaned the air filter every 1,500 miles. After the update, every service and zero carry over.
I’ve been looking at a tourer this year. SG / RK or RG. Ive pretty much decided on a 2016 103. I’ve had two late 103 twin cams and they’ve both been bullet proof. The M8 can suck my swingers. Dealers are selling them cheaper than twin cams now. Wonder why?
So, this happened to me. The intake valve guides wore out because the oil pump wasn't getting to where it needed to. H-D had to replace the whole top end under warranty. I worked it out with the dealer to pay the difference in parts and upgraded to the Stage 4 and the 2020 oil pump.
@@GixxerFoo yeah. I explained to them that if they replaced the top end without replacing the oil pump I’d be back. So I just paid for the pump and labor while they had it all apart.
2020 and newer have the updated oil pump, I wouldn't be scare of them. I would still add a vented dipstick though, but nothing these days is built like it used to be.
Once again, good vid G! My 2021 fxbb got a fueling dipstick as soon as I got the new bike home. I'm also thinking about adding a DK custom air cleaner with external breathers also.
That's awesome to hear! Those really do help quite a bit and since you have the 21 model you have the updated oil pump. A good external breather goes a long way too with keeping the top end clean and the crank case pressure down!
Your videos are clear and concise. Thank you for them. Question. On the issue of blow by and carbon buildup on cylinder heads, is a fuel additive like gumout , which works great for cars a good idea for harley m8
Yeah l would just measure it out for the size of your tank, l run a little Lucas Fuel System Cleaner in my bikes. It does help clean the injectors and keep the carbon down a bit. You can't stop the carbon unless you reroute the head breathers to atmosphere.
I have got the first M8 107 Street Glide purchased in St Australia in Oct 2016 and I haven't had any problem with mine and its stock with Screaming eagle Air and slipon's
my 2018 stock road glide with 30,000 miles runs fine, but seems to burn oil, unless of course it’s just sumping. i dont ride hard at all. i want to check the cam chest first to see how much oil comes out, then remove the crank sensor. regardless, an upgrade to the 2020 oil pump seems logical, maybe a vented dip stick …
You are 100% right I had an S & S 475 cam put in while I was at it I put in (S & S) high flow oil pump, cam plate, collapsible pushrods and the lifters my oil preference is Red Line, that was done at 7k and I now have over 50k on it and have had zero problems at this point ( knock on wood).
Any chance I can talk you into doing a video on what octane gas is best for your motorcycle? Should you go with a higher octane as you start throwing high performance parts on your bike? I think with your knowledge you could finally put this debate to rest once and for all. Also great video! I don't even own an M8 and I watched 👍😎👍
That's an excellent idea, I think I'll do that. I see people swear you can run regular but a bike needs the highest octane you can get since they are prone to detonation.
Norton on their Commandos had the same type of issues with engine breathing problems as well as oil frothing in the crankcase starving the crankshaft of oil leading to failure it was these defects as well as others that brought the downfall of the company being penny-wise and pound-foolish is no good it cost you customers
This is EXACTLY why I searched for 2020 and up when looking for my new bike. Ended up with a 2020 Heritage 114 with 740 miles on it for $5k less than a new '21 at the dealer. 😎
@@GixxerFoo that's why I was hunting specifically for a 2020. I really lucked out. Actually bought it from a Yamaha dealer that got it on a trade. Still plan on upgrading the can chest though. Likely using fueling parts.
For what it matters. Have a 17' within one year my top end was toast. Rebuilt in 18' using a Fueling oil pump and vented the dipstick and still running strong 40k miles later.
What is that bronze filter on that shovelhead i was trying to see something like that had no luck wondering if you know who makes them because i want one on my bike
Dude thanks your very knowledgeable, was this issue ever address and fix this problem themselves or are these motors still coming out fucked up and its the owners problems? If they fixed what year was it moving forward?
4 oil pump versions plus a new added gasket. Plus the early versions with oiler screws to long. Geez sad R@D from the beginning. Using customers as R@D is losing buyers.
Harley has a serious issue of testing on their customers in my opinion. You can't tell me with a straight face as many miles as they claim to put on these motorcycles in testing that they didn't catch it or weren't aware of a potential issue.
Went on an IBA certified 1500 miles in state in 36 hours and at one point thought I could hear a loose bolt. Either it went away or I went deaf, and I forgot about it. Then out of the blue this video was recommended. I took it to the dealership for a 10k service and to look into the possible oil pump issues. They called and said the oil pan was cracked. Ever heard of that and what is the oil pan interference on the 18 FLHTCU?
Gday mate , great video. My 2021 Low Rider S has just arrived in Australia , took forever with the state of the world nowadays . I’m installing a “Check M8 Vent Trans Top Cover” From Trask Performance to reduce Blow By issues. Have you heard of these ? And what’s your thoughts ? Cheers 🍻 Gus 👍👍👍
It's great to hear you finally got your bike! Low Rider S is an awesome bike, in my opinion you can't go wrong getting some atmospheric vents on these newer bikes. There's so much pressure build up in these new designs and atmosphere is the best way to relieve it, especially in the heat of Australia!
How come Harley didn't recall this problem? It seems that if I just bought a brand new bike for $28,000 I shouldn't have to worry about an oil pump problem on the first road trip. So sick of HD.
Sadly if it's not a safety issue it won't get a recall, if it just cause premature engine failure they will just update the troublesome part and put it in the new bikes.
Depends......If you upgrade to Stage 2, 3 or 4. Maybe. If you ride it hard. Maybe. Best solution in either case is to upgrade to a high performance plate and pump. I am running a '21 RKS. Just installed a Stage 2 SE447 cam. When my warranty is up I plan to go to another cam and at that time will also upgrade the cam chest components.
Love your content and am learning a LOT! Would the oil circulation fix allow the engine to have lower idle rpm(via EFI software manipulation) without having oil circulation(&heating) problems?
Those types of bikes have much smaller engines and also share their engine oil with the transmission. Ive owned 2 M8s, one was a 2018 and now a 2021. Never had an issue with either powertrain.
@@GixxerFoo Agree, but Harley has had this basic engine design for decades, long enough time to perfect it/fix it. Perhaps HD should address these engineering challenges with some actual engineering.
I own a sportster and it seems reliable but I'll be honest it's no where near the reliability of the Japanese bikes I had. For instance the primary chain is noisy as hell, even with good oil it sounds like it's grinding on metal. The bike also has a crap battery that usually takes 2 cranks to get started. My Japanese bikes started instantly and the engines even on my s1000 sport bike were quite. The only real thing I like about the sportster is the exhaust sound and that it's belt driven. It's easy maintenance.
I agree with most of what you are saying but it's my thinking that any oil that's in the cam chest and crank case when the motor is shut off will stay there and not return as it sits because the cam chest might be able to return a small amount past the crank bearing into the cases but there it stays until it's pumped out. Everyone learns on their first dry sump motor that if it's been sitting for a while it's a good idea to run it a minute before you check the oil in order to avoid over filling it because it's all in the crank case and has to be pumped back to the tank. Not much return from the rocker boxes either unless you mount the side stand on the other side.
Got a 2020. Heads breath into a catch can. Ride it hard in hot weather. Not using H-D oil. Mobil1 20w50 vtwin oil. No noises , no oil loss, no problems. 8600 Highway miles on It. No short rides.
I am about having atmospheric vents anywhere you can, the EPA hates it of course but it's better for your bike. In the transmission it's a great idea there too, it will keep you ending up with a vacuum and relieve pressure build up.
This was also an issue with the evo sportsters. They vent into the air intake and after a good run the airfilter is saturated and leaks all over the motor.
My 19 117 had the updated pump,the inner primary cover vent.ive had zero issues and i also don’t overfill it with oil during oil changes.i have zero aftermarket vented parts.there so many costly theorys about the oil sumping.
With the 2019's late production had the updated oil pump, early production had the old style. Mostly the sumping issue really showed itself with the Stage IV kit or high horse aftermarket builds.
EPA is so goofy. They say “yeah let’s make the engine life half as long so the manufacturer has to produce insane amounts of emissions creating a new replacement engine”
I have a 2017 Road King with the M8 motor that I purchased used in 2019. I was told this problem was addressed prior to my purchase. I use cars and bikes like an appliance, turn it on, use and enjoy and switch back to its factory default position of off. So far there hasn't been any problems. This bike has earned my trust as it was purchased with less than 2k and now there's more than 20k on the clock. PS, this bike replaced my 2014 FatBoy that had a 103 motor and that bike was a good 'ol boy too!
Those late year 103's were just about perfect, Harley got the Twin Cam right and then switched motors. Not all the M8's had the sumping issue, some work just fine with the older oil pump. You might have a dealer run your vin number and see what all had been done to the bike by a dealer.
1:48 oops...HD missed it. 😅 I think not and the root of the problem is that its a HD! BTW, Great video guys. Very informative. I don't own a HD and this is one of the reasons why.
I just can't get over the fact they sent it down the line like that. Unless for whatever reason when these bikes were assembled in the shop they never had an issue and the problem materialized when they went down the production line.
Great video there are a lot of 2017-2019 bikes out here for a lot less then new ones but I'm afraid to buy one? Is this really all that it takes to get the reliability back to say a 103?
Ok then been riding my Mil 8 fxbr for 2 years 25,000km and hard and fast (as it goes cos it decks out quick) needs new suspension oil wise no problem no leaks nothing .
Based on this video you would think M8 engines were dropping out into the street by the tens of thousands. I don't know man, there is a lot of happy M8 riders out there.
Describe hard and fast....like full on throttle? What's your shift rpm? What's your cruise rpm? Just curious...I've got a '21 M8-114 FatBoy, I'm still breaking it in and wanna make sure I'm not driving it too hard and not babying it at the same time. Cheers.
Great video. I looked and neither offer and vent covers for my softail slim s. Mainly for touring and dynas. Was the problem no as bad in the softails or are places just not making them? Always love bro from Upstate Ny
Thank you! I really haven't heard of any issues with the B motor in the Softail line, the twin cam Softail had the oil tank like the Sportster which seemed to work pretty well.
@@GixxerFoo that's what I thought as well. I wonder if it would make any difference in doing it to a softail. I still want to do crankcase breather dump so it's not going back in to my motor. Just haven't thought of which route I want to go after watching your video.
I have a 2018 road glide. I did stage 3 and upgrade my oil pump to a 2019 oil pump. I still blu the motor, Harley Davidson paid for everything rebuilt my motor and put a 2020 pump. I haven't had any problems since.
That exact thing happened on Adam Sandoval's Road Glide with the Stage 4 kit! Harley gave him that bike after he rode the entire US to every Harley dealer in the lower 48.
I have a 2019 Heritage, I thought this problem was (heard) with the touring line. The dealer told me my bike doesn't have this issue....then again, not sure I trust that. They also told me I have a forever warranty on the powertrain when I bought it new, and if I ever had a problem it would be taken care of. I've since then did the stage ll upgrade.
You may likely have a late production 2019 with the updated oil pump, early production 2019's were likely built in 2018 with the old style pump. You can't beat a deal on a lifetime powertrain warranty, do they have to do all your services at the dealer for that? My dealer has a lifetime deal but you have to have them do all the work to the bike.
Have you updated your M8's oil pump? Which pump did you decide to go with?
Yes, 2020 RKS, replaced the oil pump and cam plate for Feuling RS pump and plate, even though it wasn't really necessary. No regrets though, the higher capacity is a good thing to have.
S&S
Fueling
Has that been happening on any of the softails?
@@joetownable yes. My 19 Heritage burnt up the heads in my M8 before the oil pump was replaced. The 2020 models and newer have the new Gerotors in the pump that fixes the issue. It is a problem on all M8s
Great video - what I do not understand is how Harley Davidson claims to test ride new builds before production for a million miles and never saw the oil sump issue
As I learned about the problems with some of the M8 engines in this regard I entered a preemptive strike on my '17 M8 and had a S&S oil pump, Cam plate, lifters and cuff's, adjustable push rods, and while we were there a performance CR480 cam, Tuner, and a Dyno tune on top of the previously installed Stage one with a performance head pipe. Then added a Feuling vented dip stick. Bike runs great and should now be good for the long haul with nearly a forty percent increase in power!
How many stock parts did you replace in total?
@@ericx7476 everything except the paint
So a should be reliable about 118 HP to the wheel. I did a stage 3 to retain warranty. A later 2019 it got the newer pump. Got 116 HP and later added the dip stick vent. 17k miles so far and zero issues.
Nice build. Just did the same thing but with the Zipper’s 468 cam. These motors are a Beauty but they do need a little tlc. For Harley to let this stuff happen and not own it is pretty shitty. I’m lucky enough to fix my own stuff so it’s cheap but still. Pretty bad mojo on them.
@TJF Denver neither did a 1986 Harley. I think anyone with a brain can see that a bike 37 years older would have different issues…………………
I had one. HAD one. It used excessive oil. A quart in 1000 miles. The air cleaner was soaked. It was still under warranty and Harley refused to fix it. I felt totally stranded by Harley. I now ride a 2022 Goldwing. I went for reliability.
I’m with you on that. My 2018 sgs just started making noise. Although I’m a Harley enthusiast I’m gonna get something more reliable (non Harley)to get out and about.
sorry to hear that, that bike is so boring. ive riden my step dads, its just a scooter.
@@alextrainor2552 🤣
I didn't have any of those questions because I figured I'd have it serviced before I noticed anything off.
2018 107 FatBoy FLFB . Preparing myself for a longer ride, pre ride inspection and noticed 1 drop of motor oil under the bike.
I began to see shiny layer of oil on bottom of everything the air intake, crank case, radiator, and frame, etc.
Then I looked at UA-cam and your video and I'm grateful to you,, for the time you took to explain this issue.
I'm gonna be addressing everything all options and
Look forward to seeing more, and
Thanks again... 🤘😎👍
This should never have even cropped its ugly head up. As a motorcycle tech with over 40 years experience, Harley Davidson is the worst motorcycle manufacturer that completely relies on experienced service techs and outside companies finding and fixing common problems with these bikes. Then they purposely install crap parts right from the factory and again the aftermarket has to make them whole. So what did they decide to do after seeing the money the other companies were charging for a part to fix the bikes. Haha they said " hey lets build the correct part that we should have installed at the factory and call them upgrades viola, Screaming Eagle." It's utterly ridiculous. The amount they charge for these bikes is outrageous. I have a buddy who spent $50.000 dollars on a cvo Street glide that supposedly has all the screaming eagle upgrades and had the oil pump fail and 2 weeks later the compensator broke in half. When he got it back after a month at the dealer, mind you they still want their monthly payment on the loan guess what he said tom this thing does not feel right. I told him i knew exactly what was wrong with it and he brought it into my shop so i could check the crank run out. He definitely had sump issues but the run out was at .008. This is a damned CVO. More like a CVFJ. These 90 day wonders that they have at dealer services said he has no issues. Now he can't tell them what i found as me digging into the engine would void his warranty, he just takes it back once a month to document his complaints. I told him to just wait until he's almost out of warranty and tell them to go to hell and that he is going to take it to an outside tech to find out whats going on and then just sue Harley. I have a Triumph Bonneville, a Kawasaki sr , and a Yamaha. Cruiser and lastly my 06 Road King. I love my road king but its not going to make me sell the others. In my opinion the customers should start a class action lawsuit and they should be investigated by the government. They have far to long enjoyed customers that are loyal. The government should make them fix every piece of shit parts they have installed on these bikes. Sonny Barger said it best " if we would have known back then what we know today we would be riding Honda's.
They underdevelop their engines and use consumers as an experiment
I agree for 100%. When a expensive oem bike NEED "upgrades", something is realy wrong.
Seems like I have made the right choice with my Honda
@@manuhonkanen2111 Same here, we stick with the big four. Specialy Honda and Kawa.
When Harley introduced the M8 engine they boasted about the "million miles of testing" they had done prior to its release. You mean to tell me they never had an engine sump during these million miles? I smell BS.
So if this is a known and curable problem by replacing the oil pump, why doesn't HD offer this upgrade gratis for all the original owners of the M8 rather then once again leaving it to the consumer to have to upgrade an engineering flaw?! These motorcycles aren't cheap and to have a 2019 product requiring the owner to fix it while it's still being paid for is BS!
Yeah, I find it UNBELIEVABLE and downright arrogant really. I now ride a Kawasaki(and a very old Triumph) after owning four Evo era HDs (which were very reliable of course). I just would not buy a new HD with the M8 problems I have read about. And WHY should we just accept that there are "always going to be" problems in the first year of a new motor? - not so if its Japanese let me remind people! It's just unacceptable in this day and age to pay a premium price for a machine and NOT get absolute dependability.
Welcome to the new and improved Harley Davidson Company
@@rtkl13 um...er....thanks....I think....LOL
They do fix it if it has symptoms of sumping under warranty.
Harley doesn't give a shit about anyting but getting your money
Thanx!
I bought a 2018 M8 used from HD.
Just ran into this problem. It’s in the shop now-thank God I had purchased the extended warranty 😎
I’ll buy the vented dipstick as well.
Thanks for the detailed info
I really like your videos and one of them helped me avoid major engine failure.So I owe you a big Thank You.I have a 2014 Dyna Low Rider with the 103Ci and I was watching your video on unleashing the power of the 103 with a cam. The Woods TW222 really got my interest peaked.And since I still had just two months left on my extended warranty I thought what the hell I am going to put it in and not worry about the remainder My good friend who works as a Harley Mechanic was going to do the job for me at his house and he phoned me the next day to tell me of push rod damage in the block. He put it all back together and I took it to Harley Davidson and they found more damage to the pistons and crank so I got a new Long block on warranty so now I went fro 60.000KMS to zero KMS And that Woods TW222 cam is such a power maker I love it.If your video had not inspired me to put that cam in I would have rode around all summer with engine damage that I did not know of only to have my warranty expire in August and then I would have been screwed. So huge Thanks
Thank you! Dang you scored big time on that extended warranty! You had a good mechanic too that said hey uh let's put it back together and take it to Harley! Sucks about your motor but hard to complain about a new long block and Woods cam! Hopefully they will get you back rolling again quick!
Push rod damage in the block? WTF are you talking about?
@@thedieselpig4448 I might have not explained it right it was a lifter failed and caused damage to the lifter bores and cam shaft. upon disassembly the Tech found that the crank shaft had failed and the connecting rods were binding on the crank shaft also damaged the piston and cylinders as the connecting rods not moving properly due to binding that's right off the work order so it should be a better explanation .
@@stephenmccabe9941 So what caused your damage was a lifter? Do you know if this is a common failure for 96 and 103?
@@dry509 I really don't know what caused this kind of damage as I never rode it really hard or lugged it really bad for that matter changed my oil religiously so I don't really know if it's common to the 96 or the 103 someone with more knowledge than I would have to tell you that
It was only an issue on 2019 and older models. In 2020 HD improved the oil pump and increased it’s ability to pump oil by 44%
I ran into a friend last weekend who has a Milwaukee eight based ultra glide. He had no idea of the issue so I was able to share your video with them.
Thank you for sharing, yeah if it's before 2020 they have the old style oil pump. It's good to keep an eye out for the issue or even better go ahead and upgrade the oil pump.
My 2019 Ultra 114?
50K miles, meticulously maintained.
Modifications- HD Stage 1 , TAB slip ons, everything else is stock.
At the dealership for over 3 months for the transmission oil transferring into the primary, third fix attempt .
Also major internal engine damage due to the oil pump partially failing. Symptom was almost 2quarts of oil being consumed every 5K miles, dealership was advised several times of oil consumption when it was at a quart every 5K miles and stated “that’s within spec”. It didn’t smoke, and it wasn’t noticeably down on power, but failed the compression leak down test at 72% on the front cylinder. Great motorcycles if you ride under 5K miles per year, and you better have the ESP warranty!!! Damn I wish Victory was still in business!!!
Harley should fix it in house , no charge!!
They do after the engine blows a top end.
lmfao u would have better chance gettin ANTIFA to reload your clips in the coming revolution
Harley-Davidson don't give a shit about their customers anymore that's why I do not ride Harley-Davidsons anymore
@@sll-tt6bj you switch to Indian?
How can these meatheads know more then Harley Davidson engineering.guess i will buy a Honda never hear any smack talk about honda
Wished you mention Trask CheckM8. I originally had the Feuling dipstick but switched over the check m8 and Trask tech support said I didn’t need to run the dipstick with their product. So far so good.
Kia ora from New Zealand. I just found your channel and I like your no-bullshit presentation and explanations. Thanks
I have a 2010 TC96 Superglide C. Thanks to your and commenters on your channel i changed my Compinsator/tensioner. Also opened up Cam chest and did all the proper checks. Looks like i got a good one! Unfortunately it will be my last HD. Love the vids thanks!
I see a lot a people saying with new engines there's always problems and that is true but that is how all things are done. They will eventually have all the kinks panded out through trial and error. Although I do agree they should swap it free of charge if you buy a new car and they have a recall and your car is still under warranty free fix. Also people complain about the tc88 not having enough power but that engine was made for a long time other than the chain tensioner that engine is solid hence the reason I still have an tc88 in mine. Truth is anything new coming out is gonna have issues and Harley should fix that issue especially when we spend $30-$45k on our bikes
👋thanks friends 👍👌glad you stay updated about all the issues 😊
Yeah I got a 2019 sitting at 14k miles. Just ordered a SS 475c kit.
I agree with these comments. Should have a recall for those years of bikes
great video! love the three stooges in the background and the amsoil stickers!
Thank you! One of these days l am gonna get that old garage setup right lol.
Still riding an '05 Deluxe. Rode a Shovel for 20 years prior. Very interesting video. They all have their issues; but over a few years, each engine proves to be an upgrade; even though it's hard to beat the sound of a well built and tuned Shovel! What I noticed when the M8 first came out was how mechanically quiet they were. I honestly could only hear exhaust music.
Would like to see more vids on m8 oil pump options. I have a 2019 Ultra and took it on a 7000 mile trip last summer. No issues at all - rock solid. I did the Feuling dipstick but not til after my trip - had a terrible experience with the A1 with customer service - they pick the lowest cost shipper (USPS) and when your shipment disappears or is delayed for a month they won't help and will push back and say it's your problem. I would streer away from A1.
I am going to upgrade my oil pump to the S&S just to make sure I never have an issue and to move more oil / keep the engine cooler.
Dang that's pretty sad from A1, I am sorry to hear that about them, hope your getting in some good riding this summer!
Love your vids and great info man. Are the newer 2023/24 tourer bikes also having these sumping issues? TIA. Keep up the great work 👍
The first step is a leak down and compression test before getting out the parts darts. There is some incredible information on another UA-cam channel showing tear downs and what caused the sumping and a cam plate and oil pump did not resolve the problem.
Please if you could give me the links. Would really appreciate it. Thanks.
I'm running a little behind UA-cam keeps burying your channel on me.
Thoroughly enjoyed the upload thanks again
Welcome back!
good stuff man. i have a 2018 heritage and put the 131 kit in from harley. they put in the fueler dipstick and upgraded the oil pump when they did it. i guess i never noticed it before as you said as to long trips. most of mine was about and hour riding mostly. good info for sure. and i think the M8 is going to be the best engine ever.
I do too, it's got a lot of potential but with anything Harley it takes a while to catch on. I bet that 131 is a beast to ride!
Another emerging issue with m8 sumping seems to be the piston oil squirter check valves.
Just give them some credit. They are in business for just 100+ years.
I upgraded my 2018 Breakout 114 with a Woods 22XE cam/lifters, S&S camplate/oil pump/pushrods, tappet cuffs, chain tensioner, and Andrews crank sprocket. I had previously installed a fueling vented dipstick that ran into a breather fitting under the bike. After the install of the new oil pump, cam and other things, it now pushes oil out of the fueling line and out the breather fitting. I end up getting oil on my back tire and under the bike. I asked fueling about it and they told me that there must be to much oil in the bike, but I have verified with a shop that there is not too much oil in the bike. Gonna go back to a stock dipstick.
You've done some solid work to that bike, I bet is screams with that Wood Cam in there. It shouldn't be pushing oil out of that dipstick with the correct factory level though.
@@GixxerFoo So I installed the stock dipstick and it shows about 8 ounces too much. The fueling dipstick shows just below full. So the lesson here is that the fueling dipstick shows a normal level when it is above normal oil levels.
@@briandorsey3608 If you run the oil level at 1/2 quart low HOT, you will not have a problem and the engine will be perfectly happy, Brian.
My 2018 107 Breakout has lifter clatter. Bought the bike right off the showroom floor and only has 23000 klms. Scheduled to taken back in to the dealership to look into the problem. Pretty dam frustrating given the cost of the bike low klms and after Harley has been building engines for almost 120 years.
I don’t know about the HD M8 but installed a S&S oil pump and cam plate on my 96ci and it runs great now. Even cooler.
I’m thinking of doing the same. How much cooler are you running now?
@@mikedanaher3413 hard to put a number on it but I would say between 20-30% cooler.
Your getting some good oil flow now with that S&S pump, that makes a huge difference with cooling it off!
I did the same thing on my TC-88 but went with Feuling cam kit and S&S 510 cams. Bike runs great now. I will always keep this bike but I am shopping for a new Road King as a primary ride
@@GixxerFoo to be thorough, I installed the following from S&S: 551 easy start cam kit, oil pump, cam support plate, hydraulic cam chain tensioners, pushrods and lifters. My mechanic told me it was recommended to install all of it if I were to change the cams. Finally, my local Harley Davidson dealer Dyno tuned the bike with a new TTS Mastertune. It certainly feels like a whole different bike. Ironically enough, the bike won’t start on its first try when completely cold and usually it does on its second try. However, when hot, it starts much easier than before. It should be noted that I had previously installed aTwin Power 34 Tooth Compensator Eliminator which facilitated hot startups. Why doesn’t the bike starts right up sometimes when complete cold after the S&S parts installed? is beyond me. Maybe someone can shed some light on this. I’ll probably call S&S about this issue in the near future.
As an update to this comment, I contacted S&S and I was told is due to the low compression that the 96ci engine has.
Got a 2017 Ultra Limited m-8. Haven’t had any issues, but I’m not waiting for one. Thanks for the tip👍
Right on!
I love my 103 even more now thanks...great video 👍👍
103 is a solid platform, Harley had it right and then they went to the M8.
Yes I have a 2023 114 m8 I've noticed, it seems like my front cylinder isn't getting enough oil. Or that's what it sounds like. I'm gonna check out that vented dip stick. Thanks
Instead of the Feuling vented dipstick, you may also want to consider the Trask vented transmission cover. It's arguably more practical, and better situated. No need to uncouple the vent hose from the dipstick, or burning your hands (since the Feuling dipstick is made from billet aluminum) when checking the oil. Plus the vented transmission cover vents from the highest point in the crankcase, so less chance oil will be pushed through the hose and filter.
I personally have the Feuling vented dipstick, but if I had to do it again, I'd get the Trask vented transmission cover.
Yeah that Feuling dip stick gets frickin hot, I mean welding glove needed hot when you do a hot check on the oil.
Where is the link on the dipstick your referring to?😊
Check out Feuling products, they make the best one out there!
It's hard to beat the evolution engine have a good day
U got that brother..i have an 92' Flhs..solid!!
Right on ! 91 FXR !
1995 FXD
2020 Sportster 1200 NS fuel injected evo. Fun ride next to my 83 Low Rider. Long trips on the shovel, short rides on the evo. Debating whether to get a 2021 Road King standard.
@@scruffy4647 my vote would be no ! New Harley owner's are the R & D dept .
I'm heading out Tuesday on an 1100 mile roadie on my 02 RKC. No sumping issues. No blow-by issues. No nothing. Bike just hums along nicely mile after mile. (tensioner upgrade done at 52K)
You got one of the good one then! There were some bikes from those years that rolled on without any issues what so ever!
Harley needs to just go ahead and build a bigger version of the Sportster engine and put it in the big bikes already.
Harley did better than that 🤣 they killed Sportster in silence. Go ask Harley what is the Sportster ? they will deny that bike ever existed. 😂
@@betruly7894 a sad ending for the most reliable bike they ever made
Basically, now it's lost it's identity on the web site. They put it under the Street now, which that series failed miserably with those XG's. I guess they are trying to save the Street name with Sportster.
I have thought that for years myself, the torque would be made up with the displacement increase!
That's what the Evo was
Great video as usual Gixxer. I upgraded to a Feuling oil pump & cam plate on my M8. Did this at 30k miles on 2017 107 touring.
Thank you, glad to hear you already got it taken care of!
The PCV system is critical, because it maintains a strong vacuum on the crankcase. If your breather is vented to the atmosphere, then the blow-by gasses will slightly pressurize the crankcase. A small amount of positive pressure in the crankcase, will push oil into the cylinders, past the oil rings, and valve seals, and it will also push the oil out onto the ground, through the main seals, and case flanges.
However, consider the contrary situation.
If the crankcase is vented to the intake manifold, through a flow limiter, (a PCV valve is an air flow limiter) then the strong vacuum of the intake manifold creates vacuum on the crankcase. Having the crankcase under a vacuum, means oil is not drawn into the combustion chamber and oil is not going to creep past the main seals, or pushed out of the engine onto the ground.
An engine with leaking main seals, probably has a blocked PCV valve system, because the PCV system should create a constant vacuum on the crankcase, and around the main seals.
Having the crankcase under a constant vacuum (except during wide open throttle, when the manifold vacuum temporarily goes away) then the oil is "sucked" into the engine, and not pushed "out" of the engine. This is why you need to consider a proper PCV oil ventilation system, because ideally, you really want to maintain vacuum on the crankcase.
The other major benefit to having a proper vacuum in your crankcase, is that the piston rings are "sucked" down onto the pistons, so your pistons seal better, and you actually make more horsepower. As well, the oil ring functions better when the crankcase is under a vacuum, and less oil leaking into the combustion chamber, effectively reduces detonation from oil vapor.
2019 Fatboy 114....at 751 miles I did the following: S&S 475 cam chest kit and oil pump w/timken cam bearing. S&S hydraulic cam chain tensioner. Fueling dipstick vent. HPi throttle body, intake, air cleaner and external breathers. Royal T exhaust pipe. Dynojet tuner and tuned at 114hp/129tq. Bareknuckle oil cooler cover. Protect that stock oil cooler. One kicked up rock that punctures it and you will have one hell of a mess on your hands.
Harley-davidson has been making V-Twin engines since 1909. You'd think they would have perfected it by now. The best V-Twin engine Harley-davidson ever built was the sportster/XR 750 engine Designed in 1955. You would think they'd keep the same design and just make it bigger ! WTF, give me a 4 cam (geared) engine with 4 valve heads and 120 cubic inches and stop all this other Bullshit !
Blame the EPA. Harley would have happily kept some old ass engine and save the development costs. Of course they would probably be out of business over low horsepower numbers. Then you would have been begging Harley to build a new engine because they should have been able to build a newer motor with more HP.
I don't think you would ever be happy no matter what they do. Also, nobody is stopping you from buying and modifying a sportster/xr750 engine.
The M8 is a fun engine and the new PanAmerica engine (once it works through its growing pains) is a great engine as well.
You are right. EPA have nothing to do here. all manufactures have already and very long ago upgraded their engines to the nowadays standards, Harley still selling shit engines to the idiots who buy them 😂🤣 please shoot me...
@@TeensierPython I have modified sportsters and that motor is bullet proof compared to a twin cam or M8. And M8 is just an old evolution design with a 4 valve head and more cubes. And still it has reliability problems. Most reliable harley engine is the sportster engine hands down. Vrod is a Porsche engine which is pretty awesome but really isn't a harley motor. I just can't understand why harley wants soo much money for an inferior engine. They just make it bigger so it's better ? LOL 😆 Once again harley-davidson has been making V-Twin engines for over 100 yrs and still has reliability problems. I guess you like tinkering more than riding !
@@TeensierPython Sportster engine was designed in the 50s and guess what ! It passes EPA in 2021 with fuelinjection. Sportster engine per cc puts out more horsepower than any other harley-davidson engine !
Harley's 4 cam engines were the best and most reliable designs they ever built.
I have a 2017 Street Glide. The dealer replaced the oil pump assembly cover when the stage 2 was done. Looks like I wiil have it opened up again to replace the oil pump.
And that's why I love my stock 2010 Twin Cam. Runs fine, stays cool, so no M8 for me.
New pump help mask the real issue. Piston oil jets are probably not torqued properly from the factory and some also have been known to be stuck open. Either way stuck open or loose it'll flood the engine case and also take away from the lifters being oiled properly at idle.
That's an excellent point!
I had mine checked when I did the big bore kit. They weren't loose, but they weren't torqued down properly either. That's on a 2020 RKS, so 3 years after the M8 was introduced, this is still an ongoing issue.
If one have the money to afford an exorbitant dinosaur from Harley, one have the money to support Harley a bit further in their madness 🤣🤣😁. Harley only making money with their name
Thankyou
I'm still riding an early TC88 which had the tensioner issue. It seems like every time Harley comes out with a new engine there is some sort of factory defect. I don't understand why they're not forced to recall the affected bikes and fix the defect of the moment. This just shows that Harley doesn't give a shit about their customers, their only goal is to clean out our wallets.
still riding my O5 T.C.geezer glide. just dumped 8,400 in my new motor. have 300 miles on it. and it is still cheaper than going new.
No truer words they don't give a shit
They cleaned out my wallet on my LRS, but I like it!
The Feuling Vented Dipstick has a one-way valve that allows crankcase pressure to vent to atmosphere while NOT allowing suction on the upward stroke of the pistons to pull air back into the case. Much better than a simple vent to atmosphere!
It really is as it doesn't allow more air to be introduced into the crank case, they really thought through that design and that's why it cost so much.
I upgraded my 17 ultra to the S&S oil pump. Bike ran smoothly and alot cooler. If you can afford to do this I would highly recommend it. Compared to the stock oil pump it is a much higher quality.
S&S blows the stock oil pump away!
A guy i work with still has this oil issue with the s and s pump
How much did that run you?
@@billsteeves2974 stage 2 kit was a cam ,cam plate, push rods, inner bearing,oil pump, lifters and cuffs. About 2200 at my local shop. Already had full exhaust and tuner with wide band, stage 1
I am liking my 06 that has been upgraded to the 07 chain tensioner and Fueling oil pump. I am over 100k and it still runs like it did when upgraded.
When I went stage 2 on my M8. Change to updated 2020 HD pump. Carryover dissappeard!
That's a excellent point about carryover, that was another fun little problem on some bikes. What year is your M8?
Carry over is a totally different issue. It's called sumping with excessive amount of oil in the case.
With the carry over they vent the primary
@@GixxerFoo 2018 , sold in late 2017. Before the update, I cleaned the air filter every 1,500 miles. After the update, every service and zero carry over.
@@georgekelly8900 Exactly the point I was trying to make. Root cause of the oil in the air cleaner was sumping. Updated the oil pump and all is good.
I’ve been looking at a tourer this year. SG / RK or RG.
Ive pretty much decided on a 2016 103. I’ve had two late 103 twin cams and they’ve both been bullet proof.
The M8 can suck my swingers. Dealers are selling them cheaper than twin cams now. Wonder why?
So, this happened to me. The intake valve guides wore out because the oil pump wasn't getting to where it needed to. H-D had to replace the whole top end under warranty. I worked it out with the dealer to pay the difference in parts and upgraded to the Stage 4 and the 2020 oil pump.
Damn that's the exact issue right there, I am surprised they didn't upgrade your oil pump as part of the warranty.
@@GixxerFoo yeah. I explained to them that if they replaced the top end without replacing the oil pump I’d be back. So I just paid for the pump and labor while they had it all apart.
Old video, but how are the 2020+ 114s at this point? Anything to look out for? Any common problems? Thanks.
2020 and newer have the updated oil pump, I wouldn't be scare of them. I would still add a vented dipstick though, but nothing these days is built like it used to be.
The vented dipsticks on the market today are crazy expensive for what they are. At least the Fueling ones.
Fuel Moto had it for 239.99. I put one on mine and it works great
Yeah they are, that's why I see a lot of people making their own.
Once again, good vid G! My 2021 fxbb got a fueling dipstick as soon as I got the new bike home. I'm also thinking about adding a DK custom air cleaner with external breathers also.
That's awesome to hear! Those really do help quite a bit and since you have the 21 model you have the updated oil pump. A good external breather goes a long way too with keeping the top end clean and the crank case pressure down!
HD should have identified this problem on the dyno when they were developing the M8
I agree, I find it hard to believe they didn't know about it and moved forward with it anyhow.
Going to ss cam kit next week! You just confirmed my problem on 17 StreetGlide. Thank you
Glad I could help, that will new cam will make a world of difference!
Your videos are clear and concise. Thank you for them.
Question. On the issue of blow by and carbon buildup on cylinder heads, is a fuel additive like gumout , which works great for cars a good idea for harley m8
Yeah l would just measure it out for the size of your tank, l run a little Lucas Fuel System Cleaner in my bikes. It does help clean the injectors and keep the carbon down a bit. You can't stop the carbon unless you reroute the head breathers to atmosphere.
Thanks for the quick reply . I kinda was thinking same thing . No easy way around it
I have got the first M8 107 Street Glide purchased in St Australia in Oct 2016 and I haven't had any problem with mine and its stock with Screaming eagle Air and slipon's
my 2018 stock road glide with 30,000 miles runs fine, but seems to burn oil, unless of course it’s just sumping. i dont ride hard at all. i want to check the cam chest first to see how much oil comes out, then remove the crank sensor. regardless, an upgrade to the 2020 oil pump seems logical, maybe a vented dip stick …
It might be using a little oil, they have really high crank case pressure which make it prone to blow by.
You are 100% right I had an S & S 475 cam put in while I was at it I put in (S & S) high flow oil pump, cam plate, collapsible pushrods and the lifters my oil preference is Red Line, that was done at 7k and I now have over 50k on it and have had zero problems at this point ( knock on wood).
Any chance I can talk you into doing a video on what octane gas is best for your motorcycle? Should you go with a higher octane as you start throwing high performance parts on your bike? I think with your knowledge you could finally put this debate to rest once and for all.
Also great video! I don't even own an M8 and I watched 👍😎👍
That's an excellent idea, I think I'll do that. I see people swear you can run regular but a bike needs the highest octane you can get since they are prone to detonation.
Norton on their Commandos had the same type of issues with engine breathing problems as well as oil frothing in the crankcase starving the crankshaft of oil leading to failure it was these defects as well as others that brought the downfall of the company being penny-wise and pound-foolish is no good it cost you customers
This is EXACTLY why I searched for 2020 and up when looking for my new bike. Ended up with a 2020 Heritage 114 with 740 miles on it for $5k less than a new '21 at the dealer. 😎
With the M8 I would highly suggest 2020 or newer unless you plan on upgrading the cam chest.
@@GixxerFoo that's why I was hunting specifically for a 2020. I really lucked out. Actually bought it from a Yamaha dealer that got it on a trade. Still plan on upgrading the can chest though. Likely using fueling parts.
I have 2 TC88's. Vented dipstick seems like it would be good for all Harleys.
It really seems to help a lot on all their motors, all Harley engines even the Sportster can have a sumping issue.
I put one on my twin cam hoping to reduce heat but it didn’t do much for that but it did help blow by
For what it matters. Have a 17' within one year my top end was toast. Rebuilt in 18' using a Fueling oil pump and vented the dipstick and still running strong 40k miles later.
Sucks your top end fried, I doubt you'll have any issues now going back the Feuling parts though.
Yup $30 grand and it's defective from the engineers computer.
It's really sad, you think they would of fixed it before they released it.
Absolutely on the button!!!
What is that bronze filter on that shovelhead i was trying to see something like that had no luck wondering if you know who makes them because i want one on my bike
Appreciate what I learn here, thanks for your efforts.
Thank you! I really appreciate it, that's exactly why I make these videos!
Dude thanks your very knowledgeable, was this issue ever address and fix this problem themselves or are these motors still coming out fucked up and its the owners problems? If they fixed what year was it moving forward?
The vented dip stick leaks oil on hard turns… the manifold cover vent coupled with the air cleaner venting setup is the way to go IMO
My vented dipstick has yet to leak.
@@Uncle_Dirt you are yet to lean hard, some bikes lean angle is worse than others etc… still prefer the manifold vent imo
@@aaron.sorenson You might be right. I have a 2019 Fatboy. Not exactly the cornering machine.
As always great content man. I bought a vented dipstick from A1 Cycles. Those guys are awesome.
Thank you, I really appreciate it! There dipstick is pretty simple and it's not over priced, as you mentioned they are awesome to work wtih too!
4 oil pump versions plus a new added gasket. Plus the early versions with oiler screws to long. Geez sad R@D from the beginning. Using customers as R@D is losing buyers.
Harley has a serious issue of testing on their customers in my opinion. You can't tell me with a straight face as many miles as they claim to put on these motorcycles in testing that they didn't catch it or weren't aware of a potential issue.
Went on an IBA certified 1500 miles in state in 36 hours and at one point thought I could hear a loose bolt. Either it went away or I went deaf, and I forgot about it. Then out of the blue this video was recommended. I took it to the dealership for a 10k service and to look into the possible oil pump issues. They called and said the oil pan was cracked. Ever heard of that and what is the oil pan interference on the 18 FLHTCU?
Gday mate , great video.
My 2021 Low Rider S has just arrived in Australia , took forever with the state of the world nowadays .
I’m installing a “Check M8 Vent Trans Top Cover” From Trask Performance to reduce Blow By issues.
Have you heard of these ?
And what’s your thoughts ?
Cheers 🍻 Gus 👍👍👍
It's great to hear you finally got your bike! Low Rider S is an awesome bike, in my opinion you can't go wrong getting some atmospheric vents on these newer bikes. There's so much pressure build up in these new designs and atmosphere is the best way to relieve it, especially in the heat of Australia!
@@GixxerFoo yeah cheers 🍻 mate . Can’t wait to ride her .
Doing a stage 2 kit with a redshift 468 cam 👍👍👍
Thanks for the info! I have a 98 evo wide glide anniversary! Should I vent the dipstick? I also have a 2003 Electra Glide 88 twin cam same question!
How come Harley didn't recall this problem? It seems that if I just bought a brand new bike for $28,000 I shouldn't have to worry about an oil pump problem on the first road trip. So sick of HD.
Sadly if it's not a safety issue it won't get a recall, if it just cause premature engine failure they will just update the troublesome part and put it in the new bikes.
It's been 18 yrs since my last bike. Decided to buy a 2021 street glide. Love the way it performs. Will I have these sump problems?
Depends......If you upgrade to Stage 2, 3 or 4. Maybe. If you ride it hard. Maybe. Best solution in either case is to upgrade to a high performance plate and pump. I am running a '21 RKS. Just installed a Stage 2 SE447 cam. When my warranty is up I plan to go to another cam and at that time will also upgrade the cam chest components.
Love your content and am learning a LOT! Would the oil circulation fix allow the engine to have lower idle rpm(via EFI software manipulation) without having oil circulation(&heating) problems?
Yes, 2018 CVO RG. I installed the S&S cams and oil pump kit.
Why is crankcase breathing/pressure an issue for Harleys? You don't hear that from Japanese or German bikes.
Those types of bikes have much smaller engines and also share their engine oil with the transmission. Ive owned 2 M8s, one was a 2018 and now a 2021. Never had an issue with either powertrain.
Completely different engine architecture, the 45 degree design comes with some engineering challenges to say the least.
@@GixxerFoo Agree, but Harley has had this basic engine design for decades, long enough time to perfect it/fix it. Perhaps HD should address these engineering challenges with some actual engineering.
T-Man performance had a crank case mod which fixes this issue. They are leading the way....great video
I own a sportster and it seems reliable but I'll be honest it's no where near the reliability of the Japanese bikes I had. For instance the primary chain is noisy as hell, even with good oil it sounds like it's grinding on metal. The bike also has a crap battery that usually takes 2 cranks to get started. My Japanese bikes started instantly and the engines even on my s1000 sport bike were quite. The only real thing I like about the sportster is the exhaust sound and that it's belt driven. It's easy maintenance.
Harleys are completely different animal than the metric bikes, they are for sure not as refined.
I agree with most of what you are saying but it's my thinking that any oil that's in the cam chest and crank case when the motor is shut off will stay there and not return as it sits because the cam chest might be able to return a small amount past the crank bearing into the cases but there it stays until it's pumped out. Everyone learns on their first dry sump motor that if it's been sitting for a while it's a good idea to run it a minute before you check the oil in order to avoid over filling it because it's all in the crank case and has to be pumped back to the tank. Not much return from the rocker boxes either unless you mount the side stand on the other side.
I've got the vent on my 18 cvo. Haven't upgraded my pump yet. I have 25,000 miles on her
That vent helps quite a bit and still important on even with the updated oil pump.
Got a 2020. Heads breath into a catch can. Ride it hard in hot weather. Not using H-D oil. Mobil1 20w50 vtwin oil. No noises , no oil loss, no problems. 8600 Highway miles on It. No short rides.
Having that catch can makes a big difference, I'm not really a fan of Harley's oil either.
What do you think about the trask vented transmission cover?
I am about having atmospheric vents anywhere you can, the EPA hates it of course but it's better for your bike. In the transmission it's a great idea there too, it will keep you ending up with a vacuum and relieve pressure build up.
This was also an issue with the evo sportsters.
They vent into the air intake and after a good run the airfilter is saturated and leaks all over the motor.
My 19 117 had the updated pump,the inner primary cover vent.ive had zero issues and i also don’t overfill it with oil during oil changes.i have zero aftermarket vented parts.there so many costly theorys about the oil sumping.
With the 2019's late production had the updated oil pump, early production had the old style. Mostly the sumping issue really showed itself with the Stage IV kit or high horse aftermarket builds.
Take a moment and watch some of Baxters garage videos as he breaks these motors down and splits the cases and diagnoses what happened.
EPA is so goofy. They say “yeah let’s make the engine life half as long so the manufacturer has to produce insane amounts of emissions creating a new replacement engine”
I have a 2017 Road King with the M8 motor that I purchased used in 2019. I was told this problem was addressed prior to my purchase. I use cars and bikes like an appliance, turn it on, use and enjoy and switch back to its factory default position of off. So far there hasn't been any problems. This bike has earned my trust as it was purchased with less than 2k and now there's more than 20k on the clock. PS, this bike replaced my 2014 FatBoy that had a 103 motor and that bike was a good 'ol boy too!
Those late year 103's were just about perfect, Harley got the Twin Cam right and then switched motors. Not all the M8's had the sumping issue, some work just fine with the older oil pump. You might have a dealer run your vin number and see what all had been done to the bike by a dealer.
@@GixxerFoo I didn't think of that. That's an outstanding idea. Thank you for your help and all the great videos!
1:48 oops...HD missed it. 😅 I think not and the root of the problem is that its a HD! BTW, Great video guys. Very informative. I don't own a HD and this is one of the reasons why.
I just can't get over the fact they sent it down the line like that. Unless for whatever reason when these bikes were assembled in the shop they never had an issue and the problem materialized when they went down the production line.
Longer Harley goes on and the more engines they keep making, the more I love my Evo!
My Evo spun a cam bearing at 6k miles. My 49 year old Shovel still runs fine though.
@@vinnie999 some early evos had problems with cam bearings but they fixed that, and then they never died again...
Can you do a video on the twin cam valve train tick.
Sure can, rocker lockers are your friend!
@@GixxerFoo sweet! I have a set and have yet to install them. Would love to hear your opinion and the mechanical know how of it.
What is your thoughts on the task transmission cover vents?
It's not a bad idea, venting to atmosphere will save a lot of headaches with pressure build up inside the case.
Great video there are a lot of 2017-2019 bikes out here for a lot less then new ones but I'm afraid to buy one? Is this really all that it takes to get the reliability back to say a 103?
Ok then been riding my Mil 8 fxbr for 2 years 25,000km and hard and fast (as it goes cos it decks out quick) needs new suspension oil wise no problem no leaks nothing .
That's awesome to hear! It's a really hit or miss issue just like the twin cam's and the tensioners on the 88.
Based on this video you would think M8 engines were dropping out into the street by the tens of thousands. I don't know man, there is a lot of happy M8 riders out there.
Describe hard and fast....like full on throttle? What's your shift rpm? What's your cruise rpm? Just curious...I've got a '21 M8-114 FatBoy, I'm still breaking it in and wanna make sure I'm not driving it too hard and not babying it at the same time. Cheers.
Great video. I looked and neither offer and vent covers for my softail slim s. Mainly for touring and dynas. Was the problem no as bad in the softails or are places just not making them? Always love bro from Upstate Ny
Thank you! I really haven't heard of any issues with the B motor in the Softail line, the twin cam Softail had the oil tank like the Sportster which seemed to work pretty well.
@@GixxerFoo that's what I thought as well. I wonder if it would make any difference in doing it to a softail. I still want to do crankcase breather dump so it's not going back in to my motor. Just haven't thought of which route I want to go after watching your video.
Just vent the cover on the transmission, 10 bucks
Great job, love these videos!
Thank you! I appreciate it!
I have a 2018 road glide. I did stage 3 and upgrade my oil pump to a 2019 oil pump. I still blu the motor, Harley Davidson paid for everything rebuilt my motor and put a 2020 pump. I haven't had any problems since.
That exact thing happened on Adam Sandoval's Road Glide with the Stage 4 kit! Harley gave him that bike after he rode the entire US to every Harley dealer in the lower 48.
I have a 2019 Heritage, I thought this problem was (heard) with the touring line. The dealer told me my bike doesn't have this issue....then again, not sure I trust that. They also told me I have a forever warranty on the powertrain when I bought it new, and if I ever had a problem it would be taken care of. I've since then did the stage ll upgrade.
You may likely have a late production 2019 with the updated oil pump, early production 2019's were likely built in 2018 with the old style pump. You can't beat a deal on a lifetime powertrain warranty, do they have to do all your services at the dealer for that? My dealer has a lifetime deal but you have to have them do all the work to the bike.
@@GixxerFoo that's what I was afraid of.... purchased November of 2018 😕
I feel bad for you 😥. Harley just feel lucky again 😎😁
@@betruly7894 I'm fine, nothing that can't be fixed, and so far, I haven't had any problems
@@GixxerFoo yep, I let them do the services, they pretty good, reliable. They do what they say and don't do anything else without confirming it