He misplayed like crazy, he had a fool in which he decided to play on planet x when he used death in an arcana pack. He'd have had death in his hand, and multiple of them ready for when the polychrome showed up.
I feel like with seeded runs it's not really about playing optimally, it's just for the hell of it. Or at least that's how I play them, though i'm terrible and never play remotely optimally.
Imagine this beeing the first seed you ever played. You get frontloaded with the assumption that arcana packs yield legenadary jokers on a regular basis lol.
Sock and buskin gives 6x per king. 1.5x for polychrome, 2x for triboulet, 2x for glass. So for a hand of 5 polychrome glass kings, s&b gives 7776x mult. Canio never stood a chance
@@aleksamilosavljevic8106 this observation trivializes all the other math because there was no way Canio would be even close to all that glass/trib/poly/red seal.
Canio is def far from the optimal, but i think it might be better to blueprint trebulet (idk how to write it). Even without S&B, with 5 red seal kings, it's giving 2^10 mult. Idk how S&B interacts with red seals, if they don't it's a 2^15, if they do it's a 2^20, i didn't take any other factors like the polychrome or glass card into consideration so my math might be wrong. Blueprinting it would repeat this number Either way, canio stands no chance
that person who said they did the math that getting a x58 off canio is better then sock and buskin is so objectively wrong, copying Sock and Buskin is giving x(2^10)(1.5^5) which is x7776. exponential is nearly always bigger then a square
also his talk about five of a kind being better than flush five was nonsense as well because five of a kind is skipping one card's worth of scaling, which at that point was x2 and x1.5 twice per card. A single x2 mult loss, and half the base mult would be valuable. x2 x1.5 x2 x1.5 is equivalent to x9. the base value of the hand would need to be 1/9th for that to make sense. (edit before anyone comes in here all "no it's x7! you suck at math. grab a calculator. do 2x2. then x1.5 then x2 then x1.5 again. The result is 18. that's 2x9. do the same for any number it will work out the ssme because you suck at scaling)
i know everyone else has already said it, but i haven't seen anyone do the math properly. Copying sock n buskin gives you 20 triggers total, 5 initial, 5 red seal, 5 sock n buskin, 5 blue print. each trigger gives x6Tribulet(x2), glass(x2), and polychrome(x2) this means its 6^20 which is 3.65616e15 copying Tribulet gives you 15 triggers (same as before but 5 less cause no bluprint) and each trigger now gives 12x (same as before but an extra x2 because blueprint is on Tribulet now) this means its 12^15 which is 1.5407e16 now, if we add Yorik and Canio in each scenario then do the calculations for how much Canio needs to be at to be better, then we find that when Canio is at 32,750x the first scenario (blueprint on SnB), its 3.6...e15 * 5 * 32750, which is 5.98696e20 the second scenario (blueprint on Tribulet), its 1.5...e16 * 5 * 32750 which is 2.5229e21 the third scenario (blueprint on Canio), its 4.7...e11 * 5 * 32750 * 32750 which is 2.52151e21 so at 32750x mult on Canio, blueprint on Canio becomes roughly equal to blueprint on Tribulet, tho still slightly falls short the easiest way to at a glance consider which is better without properly doing the math, is, count the triggers, count the x mult, and the situation which gives the most similar of each will end up being larger(6 and 20 are further apart than 12 and 15). the same reason why plasma deck is how it is. tl:dr - Always Blueprint on Tribulet
btw just for thoroughness, basically every time you played a flush five it was better to copy the triboulet, because you can either choose (x12)^3 by copying trib, or (x6)^4 by copying SnB, which is either x1728 per king or x1296 per king respectively meaning trib is better by about x4 in total with all the kings factored in. also canio would like literally never catch up to either SnB or Trib copy, exponential just grow way too fast to break that much glass as even copying SnB, the worse of the two, youre still getting x7776 mult instead of the double digits of canio.
the way id think about it and cut corners without having to do the math everytime is since you have an equal amount of retriggers and triggers (base retrigger + red seal + Snb) , (glass, trib, polychrome), if youre deciding whether or not to copy a trigger or a retrigger, if the average value of your triggers is lower than what you wanna copy its prob better to copy another trigger, but if your average trigger xmult is higher than what youre thinking about copying its prob better to copy a retrigger. i couldnt really think of a less word way to say this lmao but yeah you had (trib x2, glass x2, polychrome x1.5) and another trib copy of x2 is higher than the average of 2,2,1.5 so its better to copy trib
Legendary Jokers ordered saddest to Happiest : 1. Canio : Bro is suffering, truly not a happy person, cut him a break!!! 2. Yorick : Just having a rough day, probably could use a hug 3. Triboulet : He’s fucking pissed, just not in a great mood, maybe leave him alone to calm down… 4. Chicot : Ambivalent, not happy, not sad, just chilling 5. Perkeo : Dude is having an amazing time, just happy to be here, loves life!
yorick is probably saddest bcos he is buried underground according to Hamlet. Canio comes next cuz his wife cheated on him, then we got Chicot and Triboulet. I don’t know how to rank these two but triboulet seems angrier. Perkeo definitely happiest bcoz he can drink gallons of wines everyday and was praised as a hero in Heidelberg, Germany.
With a bit of napkin maths, blueprinting the sock and buskin, assuming you play all glass poly kings, should give x7776, so canio would only be better after murdering 7777 face cards
Sock and Buskin vs Triboulet / Glass / Red Seal / etc maths for anyone that wants to know; Each Sock and Buskin (and each red seal), ADDS one resolution of the card, so Red Seal + Blueprint + Sock means 4 resolutions of the card. If we ignore the polychrome and glass and the red seal for now, for a simple example, and only consider Sock + Blueprint + Triboulet, if we double the Sock, we get 3 resolutions of each card, each with a single double mult; whereas if we double the Triboulet, we get 2 resolutions of each card each with two double mults. In the ideal hand scenario here, of 5 red seal polychrome glass cards, at base each resolution is a 1.5x, a 2x, and a 2x from Triboulet, and we get 3 resolutions of each card. For adding the Blueprint it either adds a resolution, which is adding another 1.5x, 2x, and 2x, OR adding an extra 2x each resolution, which is two 3x-es, so in this case the Triboulet is better, because we already an equal number of resolutions and multipliers, and one of those multipliers is "only" a polychrome. The rule of thumb is that you want around an equal number of the multiply-on-card effects, and resolutions, because of Square Numbers. We have 3 multipliers (glass, polychrome, triboulet), and 3 resolutions (base, red seal, sock)... which actually is the awkward case where they look equal and it's harder to tell at a glance.
@ It’s not the most useless one. Canio is. Because you must run a specific build for it to be useful, whereas every other legendary Joker is useful no matter the build.
Math nerds kinda cracked how seeds influence the RNG rolls of Balatro a while back, so I'm willing to suggest it's unlikely that anyone actually ever got this seed as an actual run. It's much more likely that someone with a good understanding of Balatro's underlying logic just managed to mathematically derive a seed that met their desired parameters (all legendary jokers relatively early on) through significant computational effort, then posted that seed for other players to have fun with.
~52:00 got some math for everything: realistically, you should never copy canio. Canio by itself gives a multiplier, so a canio bluebrint represents x20 (Both canio's together give x400, but the blueprint itself does not give x400, it only gives x20). On the other hand, a copy of triboulet gives x2^number of triggers (at minimum x2^5 = x32, but if you have 5 red seal kings, that's x2^10 = x1024). Unless you destroy 200+ cards that feed canio, 3 red seals is more than enough in a 5 card hand to make the copy of triboulet better. 54:42: overall you should copy taiboulet. This one is tricky so let's break it down a little. Instead of calculating the total multiplier for a hand, let's look at a high card hand with a single "poly glass red-seal king". With a 5 of a kind, the total multiplier is this high card multiplier raised to the fifth. Case 1: We copy triboulet How many times will the king trigger? Answer: 3 times (once regular, once from the red seal, and once from sock and buskin) What is the multiplier generated when the king triggers? Answer: x12 (x2 [glass] x2[triboulet] x2 [blueprint] x1.5[poly]) Overall multiplier: x12^3 (mult per trigger ^ number of triggers)= x1728 Case 2: We copy sock and buskin. How many times will the king trigger? Answer: 4 times (once regular, once from the red seal, once from sock and buskin, and once from blueprint) What is the multiplier generated when the king triggers? Answer: x6 (2x[glass] x2[triboulet] x1.5[poly]) Overall multiplier: x6^4 (mult per trigger ^ number of triggers)= x1296 Okay now how do you calculate this in a real run without pulling out a calculator? There is no exact easy way, but this is the quickest mental approx I can think of: 1) beak it down to the multiplier for a single card (like how i looked at a single king). 2) count how many times this card will trigger in case 1 (repeat for case 2) 3) do the following math: when triggered, add 1 for each time a x2 mult would happen, add .6 for each x1.5 mult and add 1.6 for each x3 mult. (In the above case 1, the value would be 3.6) (repeat for case 2) 4) do the value in step 2 x the value in step 3 (triggers x math). Whichever case's value is higher is choice you should pick. (Case 1 math: 3 x 3.6 = 10.8. Case 2 math: 4 x 2.6 = 10.4 => case 1 is better) Note that this is a rough overestimation of the real number. Reason: the real multiplier is [2^(number of x2) x 1.5^(number of x1.5) x 3^(number of x3)]^(number of triggers). 2^.6 is approx 1.5 and 2^1.6 is approx 3. As such we can approximate the real multiplier as follows: [2^(1x{number of x2} +.6x{number of x1.5} + 1.6x{number of x3}]^(number of triggers). (X^y)^z = x^(y*z). Also since we only care about which is bigger and all cases will be 2^[something] we can remove the "2^": [1x {# of ×2} + .6x {# of ×1.5} + 1.6x{# of x3}] x [number of triggers]. Okay real example now. We have the same "glass poly red-seal king" but we have two blueprints, a triboulet, and a sock and buskin. What is optimal? Case 1: effective 3x trib 1) number triggers: 3 (normal, red seal, sock) 2) calculated number: 4.6 (glass[+1],trib[+1], trib[+1], trib[+1], poly[+.6]) Final number: 13.8 (=> final mult is ~2^13.8. Real number is 24^3) Case 2: effective 2x sock and 2x trib 1) number of triggers: 4 (normal, red, sock, sock) 2) calculated number: 3.6 (glass[+1], trib[+1], trib[+1], poly[+.6]) Final number: 14.4 (=> final mult is ~2^14.4. Real number is 12^4) Case 3: effective 3x sock 1) number of triggers: 5 (normal, red, sock, sock, sock) 2) calculated number: 2.6 (glass[+1], trib[+1], poly[+.6]) Final number: 13 (=> final mult is ~2^13. Real number is 6^5) Overall this example shows case 2 is the best using pretty quick math.
Hi - so I know its beside the point and nobody actually cares but I just need to talk about chats math: From what I saw when putting the video at 0.25x speed is that the Lucky Effect Triggers with 2x then the Polychrome with 1.5x and then the Triboulet with 2x This then gets repeated once by the Red Seal, once by the Sock and Buskin and once by the Blueprint. The Sock and Buskin effect did not retrigger the red seal (at least not from what I could see). If I am correct than this would mean that in total every card gave the 2x effect eight times and the 1.5x effect four times - this then means that the Blueprint only gives a single 1.5x and two 2x per card. This is ten 2x and five 1.5x per hand from the blueprint which is 2^10 * 1.5^5 ~ 7777. That would mean that Canio needs to be > sqrt(7777) which is 88.18... That all is to say that as long as my calculations are correct Canio needed to be at 89x for it to be better. P.S.: Really enjoying the Balatro content Roffle! Have to say that I do like it quite a bit more than hearthstone and hope it catches on more.
Now I haven't played this game personally, but conceptually I really like Chicot as far as I understand it. Sure, it'd be ideal to get it as Negative so that you can have it without it tying up a Joker slot that could be contributing to multipliers, but in cases where you are going to hyper-specialize it just seems really good to have something that will make sure that you don't get destroyed by The Goad or The Plant turning up (this video even proves that). I will bite it's probably going to be a disappointment if you're not going into Endless though. That was a funny noise when you got that Deja Vu. That Ankh late in was basically just "Hey, you wanna bury the run right now? I'm your guy if you do.". Can Buffoon Packs have Negative Jokers, or no?
For those who are interested, the actual multiplier Caino would have to be at to be better is 544x, assuming he is playing a lvl. 8 flush five with 5 polychrome glass kings. (Not including steel cards, if you want the math I can send it)
55:04 putting the blue print next to the black white card is smarter since it retriggers the whole card plus glass effect plus seal, which also triggers tribulet, while blue print next to tribulet only triggers tribulet
Ill have to test this out next time, but I dont think S&B (the black and white) triggers red seal. So you can either have 4 total triggers (normal activation, S&B, S&B blueprint, red seal) which gives x16 per card from triboulet at x2 per activation or you can have three activations per card at x4 per activation for x32 per card S&B is better without red seal, triboulet is better with red seal
As a player of Antimatter Dimensions, orders of magnitude (denoting the times 0 shows up) are a pain to deal with. In order to do basic multiplication with ooms, you have to raise it to a power! Example: 2e15 × 2 = 4e15 2e15 ^ 2 = 2e30 And with orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude (aka, denoting the times 0 shows up in the order of magnitude) you have to tetrify it (yes, that is a real term as far as I'm aware) 1e2e5 ^ 2 = 1e4e5 1e2e5 ^^ 2 = 1e2e10 So, yeah, those are big numbers. But they can be denoted using smaller numbers. And unless you use those smaller numbers, they're essentially invisible to the human eye as early as 1,000,000,000 (1e9)!
I feel like roffle out here having a good time playing games and all these comments come at him just because he’s a smart guy therefore he HAS to make ALL the perfect plays. Get over it and enjoy the S tier content smh
kinda wild that the Legendary rarity tier appears to consist of four pretty-good cards that wouldn't look terribly out of place as rares and one that just defines your entire run
I decided to calculate which joker blueprint should copy, just for fun. Plain cards - Any Red Seal - Triboulet Polychrome - Sock & Buskin Red Seal Polychrome - Triboulet Glass - Sock & Buskin Red Seal Glass - any Polychrome Glass - Sock & Buskin Red Seal Polychrome Glass - Sock & Buskin So Red Seal always favours Triboulet while Polychrome and Glass always favour Sock & Buskin. I suppose if you have 2 elements that favour a single joker, that one takes priority. Although I haven't a clue how a second blueprint would interact with all this.
imagine glass joker with this build (the one where it adds x mult every time you break a glass card) a negative version of that would've propelled this deck even further
I'll try to explain (nicely) why Buskin is a better Blueprint than Trib in this scenario. Trib gives x2 mult for each. Buskin retriggers the card. Most of your kings are Red Seal, Polychrome, and Glass. So, when Buskin retriggers the King, you're getting an additional King's worth of chips, an additional 1.5x from poly, and an additional 1.5x from glass. (That's 2.25x + Chips, already better than Trib). BUT, Buskin's retrigger also checks the Seal on the card. Since it's a Red Seal, you're doing all ^that AGAIN. (For x5.06 and 2x Chips). Each of those are per card, so it doesn't matter if you play 1 or 5, Buskin still outmuscles Trib even without the Red Seal. If you're playing 5 cards, Buskin is adding an EXTRA ~x57.6 Mult, so you'd need Canio to be >58 to beat out Buskin. (even more because Buskin also gives chips)
This is wrong, Buskin is better than described, as glass is a 2x and it also is affects the Trib boost which is another 2x giving a 6x boost per glass polychrome card. Red seal doesn't matter as retriggers don't trigger other retriggers like red seal. However Trib is still better as it doesn't give a 2x but a 2x per retrigger giving in total an 8x per red seal king or 4x if it is missing red seal. These are always higher than Canio if playing more than 3 kings. Standard rule of thumb is that multipliers scale much better with retriggers than extra retriggers.
At the risk of getting mobbed ive done some math. Assuming that the hand played is 5 glass red seal kings. If blueprint is on sock and buskin mult will be multiplied by 2 to the power of 8 times 5 which is 1280 times mult. If it's on the triboulet it will be 2 to the power of 9 times 5 which is 2560 times mult. So the technically correct place would be on the triboulet.
Wait a minute I just realized glass is x1.5 mult not x2 mult but that math error actually swings it more in favor of triboulet anyway. 1080 mult for triboulet and 405 mult for sock and buskin
I played through this seed in my own time on the black deck for the extra joker slot, and actually managed to find both brainstorm and blueprint, ended up losing the run after not realising the next boss blind was the plant, which is especially upsetting as I had bought the voucher to allow rerolls but as always i forgot i had it. Best hand ended up being 1.535e31
i only got canio within my ~5 runs where i actually got progress and didn't use him due to lack of joker space (went with a full straight built with main special ones being: supernova (gain mult equal to amount of times that hand was played), shortcut (you can have a gap in your straight, 1 rank max) and four fingers (you only need 4 cards for straights and flushes (straight flushes too))
I feel like blueprint is easier when you think of it’s isolated effect on the board. This is difficult for a lot of people, as Roffle pointed out in his thinking about putting the blueprint next to Canio. It’s not accurate to imagine Blueprint as “x400” because that’s the overall effect WITH Canio, not the effect alone. In that situation, the blueprint only effectively does x20 over the final mult. The 2^9 effect next to Triboulet is its own effect on top of Triboulet’s current output. This means that Blueprint provides that entire x512 value, as opposed to its combined effect with Canio. This can be seen similarly with Sock and Buskin, but it’s much easier to see why this is the wrong card to copy. Without the blueprint, Sock and buskin doubles the effect of the board, as it triggers each card twice. Placing blueprint here will only multiply that effect by x1.5, since it will trigger three times instead of two. This effect can instead be doubled by placing blueprint next to Triboulet, as its multiplier procs an extra time for each trigger, doubling the effect of the first trigger AND sock and buskin’s trigger. I hope this makes sense, and helps people with understanding Blueprint placement, as I imagine this is a common confusion with the card.
I had a run where I started with Triboulet, got a Spectral card that duplicated it and went straight to Ante 14 by playing 5 of a kind kings the whole time
Here's how I understand the math. Im gonna do this per card instead of per hand, just to simplify it Assuming you have a red seal on the card, I am fairly certain S&B does NOT give you a second red seal Before blueprint you get three triggers, and each one gives x2 for glass, x1.5 for poly, x2 for trib, for a total of x6 per trigger. 3 triggers makes it x6^3 = x316 With blueprint on s&b you get an extra trigger so you have x6^4 = x1296 With blueprint on trib, you lose that extra trigger, but you gain an extra x2 so you get x12^3 = x1728 So if you have a red seal, blueprint is always better on trib
S&B is almost always the best scoring blueprint target for 5 kings. Triboulet only gives 2x for each king. An extra S&B gives you the Triboulet 2x, polychrome 1.5x, and glass 2x for a total of 6x extra per king. You'd need Canio at 6x^5 (7776x) to make copying that better.
Just throwing another hat in the rink, here's my proof that Blueprint on Triboulet is better. Initially thought S&B was the obvious choice, but had to switch sides. Just calculate the two scenarios for one card- Blueprint on S&B: Mult: [ Glass(x2) Poly(x1.5) Triboulet(x2) ] = x6 mult per trigger Triggers: [ Initial, Red Seal, Blueprint, S&B] = 4 triggers Total: 6^4 Blueprint on Triboulet: Mult: [ Glass(x2) Poly(x1.5) Blueprint(x2) Triboulet(x2)] = x12 mult per trigger Triggers: [ Initial, Red Seal, S&B ] = 3 triggers Total: 12^3 Hard to tell which is bigger, 6^4 or 12^3, but you can break it down by prime factors to see it clearly: ---Mult Multiplier per Card Played--- 6^4 12^3 ---Prime Factors--- 2^4 * 3^4 2^6 * 3*3 ---Reduce by common ratio (2^4 * 3^3)--- 3 4 Since 4>3 we can see that Blueprint on Triboulet would have the higher score. This would lead to a total score increase by about a factor of 4.2, i.e. 33% boost to mult per each of the 5 cards played - (4/3)^5, a small improvement but not nearly enough for the final ante.
34:40 can someone explain me this. Can you use up three justices tarot cards and just buy “the emperor tarot.” After that, that joker will start copying that tarot card so it’s will increase your chances to find a “death “ tarot card or I’m wrong about this?
About the sock and busken or triboule, if you copy the sock and busken with blueprint it doesnt reactivate the red seals and that means that you arent getting the tribb value from the seals. But then polychrome make a difference so its a minmax thing. Red seals give o,5x more than polychrome when you copy tribb so it would still be SLIGHTLY better :/
I think blueprinting the trib makes each king x2^12 while blueprinting sock is x2^16? But Roffle is right, it probably isn’t enough of a difference to matter and isn’t why we’re here. We want funny big number with colourful jokers Edit: I forgor about polychrome giving x1.5 and I cba to do the math, what am I, a nerd?
53:00 9 months late I know (I just started playing balatro) but canio scales so slowly that at this point it will never pass triboulet with blueprint, even if you got it up to x100 mult blueprint would just make it 100^2 or x10,000, meanwhile you’re regularly getting 2^9 or 2^10 on triboulet and blueprinting that boosts it up to 2^18 or 2^20, or x216,144 and x1,048,576 both of which far exceed x10,000, you’d have to destroy over a thousand face cards just to match triboulet because your only playing kings and have so many red seals. And that’s ignoring buskin which only makes triboulet stronger not canio. As for buskin, let’s just go with the hand of 5 kings each with a red seal, so that’s 10 triggers total for triboulet aka 2^10, and as already stated blueprint adds an additional 10 triggers aka 2^20. Buskin makes each card trigger twice so that should just double the amount of triggers to 2^40. Alternatively you could have just 2 triggers per card, from the red seal, but trigger each card 3 times, (card, red seal, buskin card and red seal, blueprint of buskin card and red seal), for 6 triggers per card, with 5 cards that’s 30 triggers or 2^30 so as long as I accounted for all the triggers correctly triboulet is better to blueprint because 4 triggers per card and each card plays twice leads to more triggers for every king played (8 total, leading to 40 for a hand) versus 2 triggers per card and each card plays thrice leads to only 6 triggers, two less.
58:00 actually idol is pretty easy to account for here, assuming it selects the right king for you to play flush 5, at its optimal usage it will just match triboulet, so since we already know best usage of triboulet is 2^40 we can just multiply that in to get 2^80 at optimal usage, leave the blueprint on triboulet because it’s a constant guaranteed where as idol might select one of your other cards that you can’t play with. Overall if you weren’t intentionally trying to keep all legendary jokers it would probably be better than anything except perkeo or triboulet.
Actually small correction on the buskin vs triboulet, I forgot to account for glass and polychrome, it’s possible that buskin actually affecting those could lead to a higher number than the triboulet
So putting blueprint on triboulet results in 2^40 * 1.5^20 * 2^20, if we rewrite 1.5^20 as 3^20 * 2^-20 we can actually just cancel out that 2^20 and get 2^40 * 3^20 which is 3.834e21, And if we put blueprint on buskin it should be 2^30 * 3^30 (used the same trick as earlier to cancel out a variable) or 2.211e23 which is about 60 times bigger, so for this set up yeah buskin is the right move, just barely.
Might have gotten it wrong again, I just counted how many times x2 mult happens and x1.5 mult happens on a single card and it was 2^8 * 1.5^4 aka a total hand is 2^40 * 1.5^20 or 2^20 * 3^20 which is 3.656e15 so clearly something I thought was being triggered by buskin isn’t. Which means I’m no longer sure if I have the right triggers for triboulet either, so now I have no clue what’s better.
Okay I figured it out, red seal only activates once per card retriggering with buskin doesn’t retrigger it. So 3.656e15 was right, and with the other stuff happening that I wasn’t accounting for it ends up totalling your score to 3.701e23, my math lines up with what the game is giving you when accounting for everything but I don’t want to write it all out, I’m going to do the same thing but try to manually calculate it for if blueprint were on triboulet, my math for why cario sucks still applies I will not be redoing that because it changes nothing. Okay so with blue print on triboulet each card should activate 3 times, the initial play, the red seal and only once from buskin. The initial time it’s played it should get *2 from glass, *2 from triboulet, *2 from blue print on triboulet, and *1.5 from polychrome, so 2^3 * 1.5 retrigger red seal same thing so 2^3 * 2^3 * 1.5 *1.5 so 2^6 *1.5^2 and retrigger again for buskin 2^9 * 1.5^3. So with 5 cards that becomes 2^45 * 1.5^15 for all cards being played in the hand, I’m going to simplify this to just 1 number 12^15. Now to account for everything else we have: 12^15 * 5 (from joker) * 38 (from joker)* 37 (flush five mult)* 1.5^2 (two steel cards) and the final thing we have to multiply is chips, the base chips for flush five for you is 440, every king adds 10 but red seal retriggers that and so does buskin so 30 chips per card, 5 cards 440+150 chips is 590, so 590*37*38*5*(12^15)*(1.5^2)=1.438e23 which is about 4 times larger than 3.701e22 so final conclusion buskin is actually worse to blueprint *for this set up*, as despite triggering the other things more triboulet just grows faster. And since you can do any better than glass polychrome king red seal this will remain true for the rest of the run unless you get more jokers that trigger on face cards.
i briefly read through the comments on your other video, and my caveman brain got the basic understanding of copying king better with red seal copying sock and buskin better with no red seal
In terms of retriggerring the played cards it's always better to retrigger the whole card instead of just a part with blueprint. Ie it's always better to copy sock and buskin/jokers that retrigger played card instead of tribulet/jokers that trigger on a card being played, because sock and buskin/joker that retriggers card played has tribulet/joker that trigger on a card being played inside AND poly, glass + other possible jokers/effects that trigger on card played.
I don't want to backseat, but would it have been worth using a suit-changing tarrot on some of the red-seal, poly, glass kings so it would be easier to make better 5-of-a-kinds rather than trying to catch up with flush-5? Obviously, this was not an ultra-optimized, competitive run, favoring the novelty of using all legendary jokers over pushing to the highest score or ante. I just think it's useful to analyze different possibilities. I might also be a complete idiot who is overlooking something obvious.
Just to make life easier without thinking about optimization with math, think about it this way. You want to try and even out your retriggers and the amount of time you multiply your mult. So if you are playing regular cards, blueprinting sock and buskin is better, however with red seal cards its better to blueprint tribulet. Math wise, playing a full red sealed hand with one retrigger from sock and buskin, when blueprinting tribulet, you gain an additional 32,768 multiplier on your mult. Playing a full red sealed hand with blueprinting sock and buskin, giving you two retriggers and having one tribulet, you only gain an additional 7,776 multiplier on your mult. The simplest way to explain the math is 2 to the 15th power (one for each time the card triggers) is more than {2 to the second power times 1.5} to the fifth power (The extra retrigger cause glass to go off, polychrome to go off once and tribulet to go off once) With more or less retriggers and more or less copies of jokers, this may change, but with only one blueprint, it is better to set in onto Tribulet. It is literally never worth blueprinting canio unless you get it into the thousands of mult, which isn't possible.
If those were plain red seal kings of spades, using Blueprint on Triboulet would have been better. Since they were glass, Triboulet and Sock & Buskin were even. And because they were polychrome, Sock & Buskin by far the better choice. Canio is sad because he's not in the exponential club.
55:56 copying triboulet is better since S&B only procs triboulet an extra 5 times and copying triboulet triggers it up to 10 times with red seals, which is better. 5 1.5Xs are less than 3 2Xs
The Red Seal alone would make blueprinting Canio the worse choice. Because of the retriggers and because pf playing more than one card, Canio falls off very dramatically even if blueprinted. Between Trib and SnB, it would be a bit closer. Getting a 4th trigger (after red seal and the first SnB) is nice. However, 2 tribs with 3 triggers is much better than 1 trib with 4 triggers. Blueprinting any of the xMult cards would be multiplicative within that situation, while duplicating any of the retrigger cards would be additive. Even still, adding more Retriggers would technically also mean creating more multiplicative multipliers (in this case, from Trib, Glass and Poly). In this game, there are three multipliers for every trigger of a card (x2 from glass, x1.5 from poly and x2 from Trib). Because of Red Seal and Sock and Buskin, each card is triggered 3 times. In total, that is three multipliers triggered 15 times in a five flush (or just 45 multipliers in total). A third of this is Polychrome's x1.5 multiplier, while the rest are x2. Blueprinting Trib means having a fourth multiplier (x2) per trigger. This means having 60 multipliers, with a quarter being Polychrome. Blueprinting SnB would add one more trigger per card. With that in consideration, that would total 60 multipliers in a five flush. However, the proportion of Polychrome multipliers is still the same at a third. This overall makes it slightly weaker than Blueprinting Trib. The discrepancy would have been even bigger if it weren't for the glass cards, as half of the multipliers would have been Polychrome before any blueprinting. TLDR: Blueprinting Trib edges out Blueprinting SnB by a little bit. Getting fifteen more x2 multipliers is a bit better than getting ten x2 and five x1.5 multipliers. In case you want calcs: Blueprinting SnB: (2x1.5x2)^4 = 1296 multiplier per played card With the full 20 triggers of three multipliers, the hand gives a x3.656e15 multiplier. Blueprinting Trib: (2x1.5x2x2)^3 = 1728 multiplier per played card With the full 15 triggers of four multipliers, the hand gives a x1.541e16 multiplier. Just for comparison, if neither is blueprinted: (2x1.5x2)^3 = 216 multiplier per card With the full 15 triggers of three multipliers, the hand gives a x4.702e11 multiplier. In the final hand, Yorick had a x5 multiplier and Canio at the time had a x39 multiplier. Yorick does push the total multiplier upto x2.351e12. However, Blueprinting Canio needs to somehow make up for Blueprinting Trib just being 1.278 million times better. If only Mr. Streamer destroyed 1130 face cards smhmh
Okay, apparently there are some minor differences between console and PC but I got fundamentally the same run. Instead of polychrome on the King I was able to get every card to be a spade for totem. So without polychrome/totem Trib beats out S&B handedly (e19 with S&B, e22 with Trib.) However if you add Polychrome/totem (both 1.5x when scored) S&B barely beats out Trib. 3.297e27 for Trib and 3.814e27 for S&B.
1 king have x1.5 from poly, x2 from glass, x2 from Triboulet it all makes x6. And next it retrigers from: red seal, Sock and Buskin, blueprint. So 6x6x6x6=x1296 make each king
By my understanding, copying Sock and Buskin retriggers the chip score, Triboulet, AND the polychrome effect for each king- an extra 3^5 multiplier (1.5*2 for each king) and +50 chips- while copying Triboulet only gets an extra 2^5. That should be about 7.6 times more for copying Sock and Buskin over Triboulet.
In general, our score is (base chips + chip score) * (base mult) * (multiplier per king)^5. Now, if we copy neither, what does this end up being. Well the chip score is 50 and the multiplier per king is (polychrome mult * glass mult * triboulet mult)^number of triggers = (1.5*2*2)^2=6^2. Our score should then be (base chips + 50) * base mult * 6^10. Now, let's copy sock and buskin. The change to chips is easy. We just get another 50. Now what about the mult per king. Well, we get another trigger, so instead of 6^2 we get 6^3. This means our final value is (base chips + 100) * base mult * 6^15. Ignoring the chip increase, this would be an increase of 6^5 (so you were right except you for got about glass). What about copying triboulet. Well, for this one our chip score is still 50. However, the multiplier per king is (polychrome mult * glass mult * triboulet mult * triboulet mult)^number of triggers = (1.5*2*2*2)^2=12^2. That makes our total score (base chips + 50) * 12^10. This is an increase of a factor of 2^10. You forgot that copying triboulet gives an extra x2 mult per time each king triggers, so it also benefits from the sock and buskin. Now which is better. (Score when copying sock and buskin) / (score when copying treboulet) = (base chips + 100) /(base chips + 50) * 6^15/12^10. 6^15 = 2*3)^15 = 2^15 *3^15 and 12^10 = (2^2*3)^10 = 2^20*3^10. That makes 6^15/12^10 = 3^5/2^5. Therefore (Score when copying sock and buskin) / (score when copying treboulet) > 1 so copying sock and buskin is better. However, note that the actual base is important. If they were red seal glass cards, but not polychrome, we would get the difference being a factor of 4^15/8^10 = 2^30/2^30 = 1.
every time I try this run, the first Soul Joker is Canio, THEN triboulet, idk how tf I'm supposed to make that work lmfao in order to buff Canio, I need to get rid of face cards like wtf
I have to wonder... Is there a limit to how high the score can get? like, if it crosses some threshold does it overflow into negative numbers or crash the game?
If you really wanted a death so badly using the fools found in the shop was a mistake since you could have held on to it and found a death from a pack.
I have to ask, at such large mults, wouldn't it be beneficial to start stacking chips since that seems to be a bottleneck for how effective your xMult cards impact?
I find it quite amusing that the game was like "5 legendries? Sure, sounds reasonable. ONE Death? Absolutely freaking not."
He missed big by not holding a fool the 2 times he had the chance
He misplayed like crazy, he had a fool in which he decided to play on planet x when he used death in an arcana pack. He'd have had death in his hand, and multiple of them ready for when the polychrome showed up.
@@Gbyrd99 Or even holding onto an Emperor to duplicate to use to keep rolling for Deaths with.
I feel like with seeded runs it's not really about playing optimally, it's just for the hell of it. Or at least that's how I play them, though i'm terrible and never play remotely optimally.
@@Quargosthat’s what I did with this seed
Imagine this beeing the first seed you ever played. You get frontloaded with the assumption that arcana packs yield legenadary jokers on a regular basis lol.
I genuinely thought Arcanas gave you regular legendary jokers when I first started
@@arghpee SAME
I think I "unlocked" 3 legendary jokers in my first 4 games.,.. after I've played like 300 games I have seen like 2 :D
This reminds me of the first time I ever played Uno, and somehow got hit by a draw 24.
I didn't get this, but in my first run I got a legendary from like my third or fourth arcana pack.
26:52 "I also haven't seen any hung men in the shop either. I would happily copy a bunch of those."
Sock and buskin gives 6x per king. 1.5x for polychrome, 2x for triboulet, 2x for glass.
So for a hand of 5 polychrome glass kings, s&b gives 7776x mult. Canio never stood a chance
I thought i was going crazy thanks, also copying Canio wasn't x400 but x20, because x20 of that is just the normal canio which you have either way
@@aleksamilosavljevic8106 this observation trivializes all the other math because there was no way Canio would be even close to all that glass/trib/poly/red seal.
Number sense is hard, tbf
Canio is def far from the optimal, but i think it might be better to blueprint trebulet (idk how to write it). Even without S&B, with 5 red seal kings, it's giving 2^10 mult. Idk how S&B interacts with red seals, if they don't it's a 2^15, if they do it's a 2^20, i didn't take any other factors like the polychrome or glass card into consideration so my math might be wrong. Blueprinting it would repeat this number
Either way, canio stands no chance
ok, cool that my napkin maths matches yours, wondering if I would've missed anything.
Streamer doing bad math is expected, comments being full of bad math correcting streamer unfortunately also is expected
Ahh all the tropes
Bad Math Party! 🎉🤣🧮😩🥳🎊
The cycle of life continues
I always wonder just where the hell they're getting their numbers from.
97 year old Balatro shark still rolls legendary jokers the old fashioned way
❤
that person who said they did the math that getting a x58 off canio is better then sock and buskin is so objectively wrong, copying Sock and Buskin is giving x(2^10)(1.5^5) which is x7776.
exponential is nearly always bigger then a square
also his talk about five of a kind being better than flush five was nonsense as well because five of a kind is skipping one card's worth of scaling, which at that point was x2 and x1.5 twice per card. A single x2 mult loss, and half the base mult would be valuable. x2 x1.5 x2 x1.5 is equivalent to x9. the base value of the hand would need to be 1/9th for that to make sense.
(edit before anyone comes in here all "no it's x7! you suck at math.
grab a calculator. do 2x2. then x1.5 then x2 then x1.5 again. The result is 18. that's 2x9. do the same for any number it will work out the ssme because you suck at scaling)
🤓
@@gantaroo3140guess you were that chatter huh? Sorry for your lack of intelligence
@@gantaroo3140dude youre on a Balatro video. Learn to do math before you comment this stupid stuff
Giving up temperance with Perkeo in an early ante to level up a hand when you're already clearing ante 11 hurts the soul
Also repeatedly not copying Fool or Emperor
(Though I’m definitely with Balatro man about how weird it is Death never showed up in the shop)
@@snowfloofcathug He still could have gotten a copy from fool like 3 antes earlier after pulling it from a pack
Soul could be anything, but you know that Temperance will give you $0 for sure!
it could even be 0 dollars! you know how much we want that!
Imagine this run today with Yorick now being every 14 CARDS discarded gaining 1X MULT infinitely, instead of just a flat 5X MULT.
"Imagine this run today" makes it sound like this video was recorded in the early 2000's even though it was couple weeks ago
@@Happy_doggoYou mean 8 month ago? Game is not even 1 year out so its deep history
@@Happy_doggo “couple weeks” is an interesting way of saying 8 months
i know everyone else has already said it, but i haven't seen anyone do the math properly.
Copying sock n buskin gives you 20 triggers total, 5 initial, 5 red seal, 5 sock n buskin, 5 blue print.
each trigger gives x6Tribulet(x2), glass(x2), and polychrome(x2)
this means its 6^20 which is 3.65616e15
copying Tribulet gives you 15 triggers (same as before but 5 less cause no bluprint)
and each trigger now gives 12x (same as before but an extra x2 because blueprint is on Tribulet now)
this means its 12^15 which is 1.5407e16
now, if we add Yorik and Canio in each scenario then do the calculations for how much Canio needs to be at to be better, then we find that when Canio is at 32,750x
the first scenario (blueprint on SnB), its 3.6...e15 * 5 * 32750, which is 5.98696e20
the second scenario (blueprint on Tribulet), its 1.5...e16 * 5 * 32750 which is 2.5229e21
the third scenario (blueprint on Canio), its 4.7...e11 * 5 * 32750 * 32750 which is 2.52151e21
so at 32750x mult on Canio, blueprint on Canio becomes roughly equal to blueprint on Tribulet, tho still slightly falls short
the easiest way to at a glance consider which is better without properly doing the math, is, count the triggers, count the x mult, and the situation which gives the most similar of each will end up being larger(6 and 20 are further apart than 12 and 15). the same reason why plasma deck is how it is.
tl:dr - Always Blueprint on Tribulet
all of this is of course assuming all 5 cards are polychrome, glass, red seal. in other situations you would need to redo the math
Thank you for being pretty much the only person who posted the correct math
Won’t it be x8 and x16? Because it’s 2^3 and 2^4 instead of 2x3 or2x3x2?
Brain hurt
@@sammy-tb9hyit's not even that difficult but at some point my brain said "yeah... No."
btw just for thoroughness, basically every time you played a flush five it was better to copy the triboulet, because you can either choose (x12)^3 by copying trib, or (x6)^4 by copying SnB, which is either x1728 per king or x1296 per king respectively meaning trib is better by about x4 in total with all the kings factored in. also canio would like literally never catch up to either SnB or Trib copy, exponential just grow way too fast to break that much glass as even copying SnB, the worse of the two, youre still getting x7776 mult instead of the double digits of canio.
the way id think about it and cut corners without having to do the math everytime is since you have an equal amount of retriggers and triggers (base retrigger + red seal + Snb) , (glass, trib, polychrome), if youre deciding whether or not to copy a trigger or a retrigger, if the average value of your triggers is lower than what you wanna copy its prob better to copy another trigger, but if your average trigger xmult is higher than what youre thinking about copying its prob better to copy a retrigger. i couldnt really think of a less word way to say this lmao
but yeah you had (trib x2, glass x2, polychrome x1.5) and another trib copy of x2 is higher than the average of 2,2,1.5 so its better to copy trib
none of it matters at all since the last round was way higher than an extra x4 wouldve provided tho
the bonus from the joker alone is 2^4^5
Is this you guys 🥸
Nerrrrrrrrrrrrds
"BUT - we have assembled Exodia." that line fucking destroyed me lmao
I usually don't enjoy watching seeded runs in games but watching Balatro seeded runs is so fun, espcially when they're from Roffle. ❤
59:55 "me when im justifying loading the dishwasher wrong" lmao
Legendary Jokers ordered saddest to Happiest :
1. Canio : Bro is suffering, truly not a happy person, cut him a break!!!
2. Yorick : Just having a rough day, probably could use a hug
3. Triboulet : He’s fucking pissed, just not in a great mood, maybe leave him alone to calm down…
4. Chicot : Ambivalent, not happy, not sad, just chilling
5. Perkeo : Dude is having an amazing time, just happy to be here, loves life!
Perkeo: they used the wrong white powder for face paint
id describe chicot as pretty tired looking. he isnt sad or anything, just kinda exhausted. look at those bags under his eyes
Alas, poor yorick
Perkeo is most definitely high af
yorick is probably saddest bcos he is buried underground according to Hamlet. Canio comes next cuz his wife cheated on him, then we got Chicot and Triboulet. I don’t know how to rank these two but triboulet seems angrier. Perkeo definitely happiest bcoz he can drink gallons of wines everyday and was praised as a hero in Heidelberg, Germany.
Perkeo is so happy and it makes me so happy
He could’ve cloned emperor’s with perkeo until he got death…
I was screaming to just clone fools until he got a death from a pack
~54:10 - Just copy Yorick to piss everyone off equally, including yourself probably
Last time I was this early, Balatro didn't even exist.
So you haven’t been early to a UA-cam video since 2022? Weird flex, but okay
Well now that balatro is out he's always late. Because he's playing Balatro
@@vroenvenreal
With a bit of napkin maths, blueprinting the sock and buskin, assuming you play all glass poly kings, should give x7776, so canio would only be better after murdering 7777 face cards
Sock and Buskin vs Triboulet / Glass / Red Seal / etc maths for anyone that wants to know;
Each Sock and Buskin (and each red seal), ADDS one resolution of the card, so Red Seal + Blueprint + Sock means 4 resolutions of the card.
If we ignore the polychrome and glass and the red seal for now, for a simple example, and only consider Sock + Blueprint + Triboulet, if we double the Sock, we get 3 resolutions of each card, each with a single double mult; whereas if we double the Triboulet, we get 2 resolutions of each card each with two double mults.
In the ideal hand scenario here, of 5 red seal polychrome glass cards, at base each resolution is a 1.5x, a 2x, and a 2x from Triboulet, and we get 3 resolutions of each card. For adding the Blueprint it either adds a resolution, which is adding another 1.5x, 2x, and 2x, OR adding an extra 2x each resolution, which is two 3x-es, so in this case the Triboulet is better, because we already an equal number of resolutions and multipliers, and one of those multipliers is "only" a polychrome.
The rule of thumb is that you want around an equal number of the multiply-on-card effects, and resolutions, because of Square Numbers. We have 3 multipliers (glass, polychrome, triboulet), and 3 resolutions (base, red seal, sock)... which actually is the awkward case where they look equal and it's harder to tell at a glance.
It was maddening hearing chat tell him Sock and Buskin was correct. If you only have one blueprint, it goes on the Triboulet 100% of the time.
“We got the most useless one” ah yes the one that disables the boss blind is somehow useless 💀💀
"The most useless one" references the legendary jokers. Yeah it's the most useless compared to all the other ones
@ It’s not the most useless one. Canio is. Because you must run a specific build for it to be useful, whereas every other legendary Joker is useful no matter the build.
50:52 man was so happy he became perkeo
Math nerds kinda cracked how seeds influence the RNG rolls of Balatro a while back, so I'm willing to suggest it's unlikely that anyone actually ever got this seed as an actual run.
It's much more likely that someone with a good understanding of Balatro's underlying logic just managed to mathematically derive a seed that met their desired parameters (all legendary jokers relatively early on) through significant computational effort, then posted that seed for other players to have fun with.
~52:00 got some math for everything: realistically, you should never copy canio. Canio by itself gives a multiplier, so a canio bluebrint represents x20 (Both canio's together give x400, but the blueprint itself does not give x400, it only gives x20). On the other hand, a copy of triboulet gives x2^number of triggers (at minimum x2^5 = x32, but if you have 5 red seal kings, that's x2^10 = x1024). Unless you destroy 200+ cards that feed canio, 3 red seals is more than enough in a 5 card hand to make the copy of triboulet better.
54:42: overall you should copy taiboulet. This one is tricky so let's break it down a little. Instead of calculating the total multiplier for a hand, let's look at a high card hand with a single "poly glass red-seal king". With a 5 of a kind, the total multiplier is this high card multiplier raised to the fifth.
Case 1: We copy triboulet
How many times will the king trigger? Answer: 3 times (once regular, once from the red seal, and once from sock and buskin)
What is the multiplier generated when the king triggers? Answer: x12 (x2 [glass] x2[triboulet] x2 [blueprint] x1.5[poly])
Overall multiplier: x12^3 (mult per trigger ^ number of triggers)= x1728
Case 2: We copy sock and buskin.
How many times will the king trigger? Answer: 4 times (once regular, once from the red seal, once from sock and buskin, and once from blueprint)
What is the multiplier generated when the king triggers? Answer: x6 (2x[glass] x2[triboulet] x1.5[poly])
Overall multiplier: x6^4 (mult per trigger ^ number of triggers)= x1296
Okay now how do you calculate this in a real run without pulling out a calculator? There is no exact easy way, but this is the quickest mental approx I can think of:
1) beak it down to the multiplier for a single card (like how i looked at a single king).
2) count how many times this card will trigger in case 1 (repeat for case 2)
3) do the following math: when triggered, add 1 for each time a x2 mult would happen, add .6 for each x1.5 mult and add 1.6 for each x3 mult. (In the above case 1, the value would be 3.6) (repeat for case 2)
4) do the value in step 2 x the value in step 3 (triggers x math). Whichever case's value is higher is choice you should pick. (Case 1 math: 3 x 3.6 = 10.8. Case 2 math: 4 x 2.6 = 10.4 => case 1 is better)
Note that this is a rough overestimation of the real number.
Reason: the real multiplier is [2^(number of x2) x 1.5^(number of x1.5) x 3^(number of x3)]^(number of triggers). 2^.6 is approx 1.5 and 2^1.6 is approx 3.
As such we can approximate the real multiplier as follows: [2^(1x{number of x2} +.6x{number of x1.5} + 1.6x{number of x3}]^(number of triggers).
(X^y)^z = x^(y*z). Also since we only care about which is bigger and all cases will be 2^[something] we can remove the "2^": [1x {# of ×2} + .6x {# of ×1.5} + 1.6x{# of x3}] x [number of triggers].
Okay real example now. We have the same "glass poly red-seal king" but we have two blueprints, a triboulet, and a sock and buskin. What is optimal?
Case 1: effective 3x trib
1) number triggers: 3 (normal, red seal, sock)
2) calculated number: 4.6 (glass[+1],trib[+1], trib[+1], trib[+1], poly[+.6])
Final number: 13.8 (=> final mult is ~2^13.8. Real number is 24^3)
Case 2: effective 2x sock and 2x trib
1) number of triggers: 4 (normal, red, sock, sock)
2) calculated number: 3.6 (glass[+1], trib[+1], trib[+1], poly[+.6])
Final number: 14.4 (=> final mult is ~2^14.4. Real number is 12^4)
Case 3: effective 3x sock
1) number of triggers: 5 (normal, red, sock, sock, sock)
2) calculated number: 2.6 (glass[+1], trib[+1], poly[+.6])
Final number: 13 (=> final mult is ~2^13. Real number is 6^5)
Overall this example shows case 2 is the best using pretty quick math.
Hi - so I know its beside the point and nobody actually cares but I just need to talk about chats math:
From what I saw when putting the video at 0.25x speed is that the Lucky Effect Triggers with 2x then the Polychrome with 1.5x and then the Triboulet with 2x
This then gets repeated once by the Red Seal, once by the Sock and Buskin and once by the Blueprint. The Sock and Buskin effect did not retrigger the red seal (at least not from what I could see).
If I am correct than this would mean that in total every card gave the 2x effect eight times and the 1.5x effect four times - this then means that the Blueprint only gives a single 1.5x and two 2x per card.
This is ten 2x and five 1.5x per hand from the blueprint which is 2^10 * 1.5^5 ~ 7777. That would mean that Canio needs to be > sqrt(7777) which is 88.18...
That all is to say that as long as my calculations are correct Canio needed to be at 89x for it to be better.
P.S.: Really enjoying the Balatro content Roffle! Have to say that I do like it quite a bit more than hearthstone and hope it catches on more.
Now I haven't played this game personally, but conceptually I really like Chicot as far as I understand it. Sure, it'd be ideal to get it as Negative so that you can have it without it tying up a Joker slot that could be contributing to multipliers, but in cases where you are going to hyper-specialize it just seems really good to have something that will make sure that you don't get destroyed by The Goad or The Plant turning up (this video even proves that). I will bite it's probably going to be a disappointment if you're not going into Endless though.
That was a funny noise when you got that Deja Vu.
That Ankh late in was basically just "Hey, you wanna bury the run right now? I'm your guy if you do.".
Can Buffoon Packs have Negative Jokers, or no?
Buffoon packs can have negative it's like 1 in 1000
Buffoon Packs can have negative Jokers, same base chance as finding them in the shop (1.5% I believe)
For those who are interested, the actual multiplier Caino would have to be at to be better is 544x, assuming he is playing a lvl. 8 flush five with 5 polychrome glass kings. (Not including steel cards, if you want the math I can send it)
30:32 97 year old Balatro youtuber still does Kings the old fashioned way
55:04 putting the blue print next to the black white card is smarter since it retriggers the whole card plus glass effect plus seal, which also triggers tribulet, while blue print next to tribulet only triggers tribulet
Ill have to test this out next time, but I dont think S&B (the black and white) triggers red seal.
So you can either have 4 total triggers (normal activation, S&B, S&B blueprint, red seal) which gives x16 per card from triboulet at x2 per activation or you can have three activations per card at x4 per activation for x32 per card
S&B is better without red seal, triboulet is better with red seal
@@wulfywulfynrir1296 ah ok i thought it also triggers red seal but in that case thank you for explaining
5:35 We have assembled Exodia.
As a player of Antimatter Dimensions, orders of magnitude (denoting the times 0 shows up) are a pain to deal with. In order to do basic multiplication with ooms, you have to raise it to a power! Example:
2e15 × 2 = 4e15
2e15 ^ 2 = 2e30
And with orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude (aka, denoting the times 0 shows up in the order of magnitude) you have to tetrify it (yes, that is a real term as far as I'm aware)
1e2e5 ^ 2 = 1e4e5
1e2e5 ^^ 2 = 1e2e10
So, yeah, those are big numbers. But they can be denoted using smaller numbers. And unless you use those smaller numbers, they're essentially invisible to the human eye as early as 1,000,000,000 (1e9)!
I feel like roffle out here having a good time playing games and all these comments come at him just because he’s a smart guy therefore he HAS to make ALL the perfect plays. Get over it and enjoy the S tier content smh
kinda wild that the Legendary rarity tier appears to consist of four pretty-good cards that wouldn't look terribly out of place as rares and one that just defines your entire run
Just realised i wasnt subscribed....you deserve way more my guy. Keep up the great content!
I decided to calculate which joker blueprint should copy, just for fun.
Plain cards - Any
Red Seal - Triboulet
Polychrome - Sock & Buskin
Red Seal Polychrome - Triboulet
Glass - Sock & Buskin
Red Seal Glass - any
Polychrome Glass - Sock & Buskin
Red Seal Polychrome Glass - Sock & Buskin
So Red Seal always favours Triboulet while Polychrome and Glass always favour Sock & Buskin.
I suppose if you have 2 elements that favour a single joker, that one takes priority.
Although I haven't a clue how a second blueprint would interact with all this.
imagine glass joker with this build (the one where it adds x mult every time you break a glass card) a negative version of that would've propelled this deck even further
I'll try to explain (nicely) why Buskin is a better Blueprint than Trib in this scenario.
Trib gives x2 mult for each.
Buskin retriggers the card. Most of your kings are Red Seal, Polychrome, and Glass.
So, when Buskin retriggers the King, you're getting an additional King's worth of chips, an additional 1.5x from poly, and an additional 1.5x from glass. (That's 2.25x + Chips, already better than Trib).
BUT, Buskin's retrigger also checks the Seal on the card. Since it's a Red Seal, you're doing all ^that AGAIN. (For x5.06 and 2x Chips).
Each of those are per card, so it doesn't matter if you play 1 or 5, Buskin still outmuscles Trib even without the Red Seal.
If you're playing 5 cards, Buskin is adding an EXTRA ~x57.6 Mult, so you'd need Canio to be >58 to beat out Buskin. (even more because Buskin also gives chips)
This is wrong, Buskin is better than described, as glass is a 2x and it also is affects the Trib boost which is another 2x giving a 6x boost per glass polychrome card. Red seal doesn't matter as retriggers don't trigger other retriggers like red seal. However Trib is still better as it doesn't give a 2x but a 2x per retrigger giving in total an 8x per red seal king or 4x if it is missing red seal. These are always higher than Canio if playing more than 3 kings. Standard rule of thumb is that multipliers scale much better with retriggers than extra retriggers.
4:22 funny thing is no luck involved at all
not me screaming "use your Deaths!!!" at the screen
At the risk of getting mobbed ive done some math.
Assuming that the hand played is 5 glass red seal kings. If blueprint is on sock and buskin mult will be multiplied by 2 to the power of 8 times 5 which is 1280 times mult. If it's on the triboulet it will be 2 to the power of 9 times 5 which is 2560 times mult. So the technically correct place would be on the triboulet.
Wait a minute I just realized glass is x1.5 mult not x2 mult but that math error actually swings it more in favor of triboulet anyway. 1080 mult for triboulet and 405 mult for sock and buskin
I played through this seed in my own time on the black deck for the extra joker slot, and actually managed to find both brainstorm and blueprint, ended up losing the run after not realising the next boss blind was the plant, which is especially upsetting as I had bought the voucher to allow rerolls but as always i forgot i had it. Best hand ended up being 1.535e31
Should have held chicot....
(Or just not forgot)
I found you from Balatro, but I intend to watch you play whatever. Thanks for the great content!
Alternate Title: I Summoned Exodia in Balatro
Roffle says the line 5:35
ah yes thanos collecting the infinity stones poker edition
i only got canio within my ~5 runs where i actually got progress and didn't use him due to lack of joker space (went with a full straight built with main special ones being: supernova (gain mult equal to amount of times that hand was played), shortcut (you can have a gap in your straight, 1 rank max) and four fingers (you only need 4 cards for straights and flushes (straight flushes too))
12:06 "The hung man us kind of nice too" 💀
Roffle be like: without blueprint its not easy to get a lot of death value
My brother in christ YOU REROLLED BLUEPRINT
You know you’ve been playing Balatro a little too much when you watch a video and can spell out the seed before seeing the end
crazy to think all those polychrome kings originated from that single polychrome joker
That's politics for you
well that was fun while it lasted, gg good sir
I feel like blueprint is easier when you think of it’s isolated effect on the board. This is difficult for a lot of people, as Roffle pointed out in his thinking about putting the blueprint next to Canio. It’s not accurate to imagine Blueprint as “x400” because that’s the overall effect WITH Canio, not the effect alone. In that situation, the blueprint only effectively does x20 over the final mult. The 2^9 effect next to Triboulet is its own effect on top of Triboulet’s current output. This means that Blueprint provides that entire x512 value, as opposed to its combined effect with Canio.
This can be seen similarly with Sock and Buskin, but it’s much easier to see why this is the wrong card to copy. Without the blueprint, Sock and buskin doubles the effect of the board, as it triggers each card twice. Placing blueprint here will only multiply that effect by x1.5, since it will trigger three times instead of two. This effect can instead be doubled by placing blueprint next to Triboulet, as its multiplier procs an extra time for each trigger, doubling the effect of the first trigger AND sock and buskin’s trigger.
I hope this makes sense, and helps people with understanding Blueprint placement, as I imagine this is a common confusion with the card.
This does of course potentially change when every card is a polychrome glass with a red stamp.
I had a run where I started with Triboulet, got a Spectral card that duplicated it and went straight to Ante 14 by playing 5 of a kind kings the whole time
Here's how I understand the math. Im gonna do this per card instead of per hand, just to simplify it
Assuming you have a red seal on the card, I am fairly certain S&B does NOT give you a second red seal
Before blueprint you get three triggers, and each one gives x2 for glass, x1.5 for poly, x2 for trib, for a total of x6 per trigger. 3 triggers makes it x6^3 = x316
With blueprint on s&b you get an extra trigger so you have x6^4 = x1296
With blueprint on trib, you lose that extra trigger, but you gain an extra x2 so you get x12^3 = x1728
So if you have a red seal, blueprint is always better on trib
S&B is almost always the best scoring blueprint target for 5 kings. Triboulet only gives 2x for each king. An extra S&B gives you the Triboulet 2x, polychrome 1.5x, and glass 2x for a total of 6x extra per king. You'd need Canio at 6x^5 (7776x) to make copying that better.
2:14 Man, I wish I got Yorick pre-patch (I never even knew about legendaries)
10:55 am I tripping or have I heard him say this exact same thing word for word in another video
thought it might be bc I’ve watched this video before but no it only came out today
bro people would go WILD in this seed
26:54 "I haven't seen any hung men in the shop either." Sir, we stopped selling those in 1865.
Just throwing another hat in the rink, here's my proof that Blueprint on Triboulet is better. Initially thought S&B was the obvious choice, but had to switch sides. Just calculate the two scenarios for one card-
Blueprint on S&B:
Mult: [ Glass(x2) Poly(x1.5) Triboulet(x2) ] = x6 mult per trigger
Triggers: [ Initial, Red Seal, Blueprint, S&B] = 4 triggers
Total: 6^4
Blueprint on Triboulet:
Mult: [ Glass(x2) Poly(x1.5) Blueprint(x2) Triboulet(x2)] = x12 mult per trigger
Triggers: [ Initial, Red Seal, S&B ] = 3 triggers
Total: 12^3
Hard to tell which is bigger, 6^4 or 12^3, but you can break it down by prime factors to see it clearly:
---Mult Multiplier per Card Played---
6^4
12^3
---Prime Factors---
2^4 * 3^4
2^6 * 3*3
---Reduce by common ratio (2^4 * 3^3)---
3
4
Since 4>3 we can see that Blueprint on Triboulet would have the higher score.
This would lead to a total score increase by about a factor of 4.2, i.e. 33% boost to mult per each of the 5 cards played - (4/3)^5, a small improvement but not nearly enough for the final ante.
I love Chicot so much.I think Chicot is the best joker in this game
34:40 can someone explain me this. Can you use up three justices tarot cards and just buy “the emperor tarot.” After that, that joker will start copying that tarot card so it’s will increase your chances to find a “death “ tarot card or I’m wrong about this?
The habged man stonks are going trough the roof with this one
About the sock and busken or triboule, if you copy the sock and busken with blueprint it doesnt reactivate the red seals and that means that you arent getting the tribb value from the seals. But then polychrome make a difference so its a minmax thing. Red seals give o,5x more than polychrome when you copy tribb so it would still be SLIGHTLY
better :/
I think blueprinting the trib makes each king x2^12 while blueprinting sock is x2^16? But Roffle is right, it probably isn’t enough of a difference to matter and isn’t why we’re here. We want funny big number with colourful jokers
Edit: I forgor about polychrome giving x1.5 and I cba to do the math, what am I, a nerd?
It is true. These nerds arguing about math and me, a math intellectual, only want to see big number go brrr with funni clown cards 😂
53:00 9 months late I know (I just started playing balatro) but canio scales so slowly that at this point it will never pass triboulet with blueprint, even if you got it up to x100 mult blueprint would just make it 100^2 or x10,000, meanwhile you’re regularly getting 2^9 or 2^10 on triboulet and blueprinting that boosts it up to 2^18 or 2^20, or x216,144 and x1,048,576 both of which far exceed x10,000, you’d have to destroy over a thousand face cards just to match triboulet because your only playing kings and have so many red seals. And that’s ignoring buskin which only makes triboulet stronger not canio.
As for buskin, let’s just go with the hand of 5 kings each with a red seal, so that’s 10 triggers total for triboulet aka 2^10, and as already stated blueprint adds an additional 10 triggers aka 2^20. Buskin makes each card trigger twice so that should just double the amount of triggers to 2^40. Alternatively you could have just 2 triggers per card, from the red seal, but trigger each card 3 times, (card, red seal, buskin card and red seal, blueprint of buskin card and red seal), for 6 triggers per card, with 5 cards that’s 30 triggers or 2^30
so as long as I accounted for all the triggers correctly triboulet is better to blueprint because 4 triggers per card and each card plays twice leads to more triggers for every king played (8 total, leading to 40 for a hand) versus 2 triggers per card and each card plays thrice leads to only 6 triggers, two less.
58:00 actually idol is pretty easy to account for here, assuming it selects the right king for you to play flush 5, at its optimal usage it will just match triboulet, so since we already know best usage of triboulet is 2^40 we can just multiply that in to get 2^80 at optimal usage, leave the blueprint on triboulet because it’s a constant guaranteed where as idol might select one of your other cards that you can’t play with. Overall if you weren’t intentionally trying to keep all legendary jokers it would probably be better than anything except perkeo or triboulet.
Actually small correction on the buskin vs triboulet, I forgot to account for glass and polychrome, it’s possible that buskin actually affecting those could lead to a higher number than the triboulet
So putting blueprint on triboulet results in 2^40 * 1.5^20 * 2^20, if we rewrite 1.5^20 as 3^20 * 2^-20 we can actually just cancel out that 2^20 and get 2^40 * 3^20 which is 3.834e21, And if we put blueprint on buskin it should be 2^30 * 3^30 (used the same trick as earlier to cancel out a variable) or 2.211e23 which is about 60 times bigger, so for this set up yeah buskin is the right move, just barely.
Might have gotten it wrong again, I just counted how many times x2 mult happens and x1.5 mult happens on a single card and it was 2^8 * 1.5^4 aka a total hand is 2^40 * 1.5^20 or 2^20 * 3^20 which is 3.656e15 so clearly something I thought was being triggered by buskin isn’t. Which means I’m no longer sure if I have the right triggers for triboulet either, so now I have no clue what’s better.
Okay I figured it out, red seal only activates once per card retriggering with buskin doesn’t retrigger it. So 3.656e15 was right, and with the other stuff happening that I wasn’t accounting for it ends up totalling your score to 3.701e23, my math lines up with what the game is giving you when accounting for everything but I don’t want to write it all out, I’m going to do the same thing but try to manually calculate it for if blueprint were on triboulet, my math for why cario sucks still applies I will not be redoing that because it changes nothing.
Okay so with blue print on triboulet each card should activate 3 times, the initial play, the red seal and only once from buskin. The initial time it’s played it should get *2 from glass, *2 from triboulet, *2 from blue print on triboulet, and *1.5 from polychrome, so 2^3 * 1.5 retrigger red seal same thing so 2^3 * 2^3 * 1.5 *1.5 so 2^6 *1.5^2 and retrigger again for buskin 2^9 * 1.5^3. So with 5 cards that becomes 2^45 * 1.5^15 for all cards being played in the hand, I’m going to simplify this to just 1 number 12^15. Now to account for everything else we have:
12^15 * 5 (from joker) * 38 (from joker)* 37 (flush five mult)* 1.5^2 (two steel cards) and the final thing we have to multiply is chips, the base chips for flush five for you is 440, every king adds 10 but red seal retriggers that and so does buskin so 30 chips per card, 5 cards 440+150 chips is 590, so
590*37*38*5*(12^15)*(1.5^2)=1.438e23 which is about 4 times larger than 3.701e22 so final conclusion buskin is actually worse to blueprint *for this set up*, as despite triggering the other things more triboulet just grows faster. And since you can do any better than glass polychrome king red seal this will remain true for the rest of the run unless you get more jokers that trigger on face cards.
i briefly read through the comments on your other video, and my caveman brain got the basic understanding of
copying king better with red seal
copying sock and buskin better with no red seal
The fact that Chicot is legendary while Mime isn't even rare is insane
54:27 is clearly where he threw the run. Should've copied Chicot with blueprint smh my head those bosses would've never stood a chance
In terms of retriggerring the played cards it's always better to retrigger the whole card instead of just a part with blueprint. Ie it's always better to copy sock and buskin/jokers that retrigger played card instead of tribulet/jokers that trigger on a card being played, because sock and buskin/joker that retriggers card played has tribulet/joker that trigger on a card being played inside AND poly, glass + other possible jokers/effects that trigger on card played.
The fact that you said you'll sort them alphabetically, then left Jorick last, deeply disturbs me
It’s Yorick tho
It hurt watching all those times he skipped High Priestess when he was looking for flush five lvl ups
I don't want to backseat, but would it have been worth using a suit-changing tarrot on some of the red-seal, poly, glass kings so it would be easier to make better 5-of-a-kinds rather than trying to catch up with flush-5?
Obviously, this was not an ultra-optimized, competitive run, favoring the novelty of using all legendary jokers over pushing to the highest score or ante. I just think it's useful to analyze different possibilities. I might also be a complete idiot who is overlooking something obvious.
26:54
what a wild sentence to say without context
you want to balance retriggers and triggers for max score. ex 2 tribs and 2 busks are best, redseals count as a retrigger
Blueprint was definitely better on the chicot smh
Wanting a blueprint after rolling past one is wild
Just to make life easier without thinking about optimization with math, think about it this way. You want to try and even out your retriggers and the amount of time you multiply your mult. So if you are playing regular cards, blueprinting sock and buskin is better, however with red seal cards its better to blueprint tribulet. Math wise, playing a full red sealed hand with one retrigger from sock and buskin, when blueprinting tribulet, you gain an additional 32,768 multiplier on your mult. Playing a full red sealed hand with blueprinting sock and buskin, giving you two retriggers and having one tribulet, you only gain an additional 7,776 multiplier on your mult. The simplest way to explain the math is 2 to the 15th power (one for each time the card triggers) is more than {2 to the second power times 1.5} to the fifth power (The extra retrigger cause glass to go off, polychrome to go off once and tribulet to go off once) With more or less retriggers and more or less copies of jokers, this may change, but with only one blueprint, it is better to set in onto Tribulet.
It is literally never worth blueprinting canio unless you get it into the thousands of mult, which isn't possible.
If those were plain red seal kings of spades, using Blueprint on Triboulet would have been better.
Since they were glass, Triboulet and Sock & Buskin were even.
And because they were polychrome, Sock & Buskin by far the better choice.
Canio is sad because he's not in the exponential club.
55:56 copying triboulet is better since S&B only procs triboulet an extra 5 times and copying triboulet triggers it up to 10 times with red seals, which is better. 5 1.5Xs are less than 3 2Xs
The Red Seal alone would make blueprinting Canio the worse choice. Because of the retriggers and because pf playing more than one card, Canio falls off very dramatically even if blueprinted.
Between Trib and SnB, it would be a bit closer. Getting a 4th trigger (after red seal and the first SnB) is nice. However, 2 tribs with 3 triggers is much better than 1 trib with 4 triggers.
Blueprinting any of the xMult cards would be multiplicative within that situation, while duplicating any of the retrigger cards would be additive.
Even still, adding more Retriggers would technically also mean creating more multiplicative multipliers (in this case, from Trib, Glass and Poly).
In this game, there are three multipliers for every trigger of a card (x2 from glass, x1.5 from poly and x2 from Trib). Because of Red Seal and Sock and Buskin, each card is triggered 3 times. In total, that is three multipliers triggered 15 times in a five flush (or just 45 multipliers in total). A third of this is Polychrome's x1.5 multiplier, while the rest are x2.
Blueprinting Trib means having a fourth multiplier (x2) per trigger. This means having 60 multipliers, with a quarter being Polychrome.
Blueprinting SnB would add one more trigger per card. With that in consideration, that would total 60 multipliers in a five flush. However, the proportion of Polychrome multipliers is still the same at a third. This overall makes it slightly weaker than Blueprinting Trib.
The discrepancy would have been even bigger if it weren't for the glass cards, as half of the multipliers would have been Polychrome before any blueprinting.
TLDR: Blueprinting Trib edges out Blueprinting SnB by a little bit. Getting fifteen more x2 multipliers is a bit better than getting ten x2 and five x1.5 multipliers.
In case you want calcs:
Blueprinting SnB: (2x1.5x2)^4 = 1296 multiplier per played card
With the full 20 triggers of three multipliers, the hand gives a x3.656e15 multiplier.
Blueprinting Trib: (2x1.5x2x2)^3 = 1728 multiplier per played card
With the full 15 triggers of four multipliers, the hand gives a x1.541e16 multiplier.
Just for comparison, if neither is blueprinted: (2x1.5x2)^3 = 216 multiplier per card
With the full 15 triggers of three multipliers, the hand gives a x4.702e11 multiplier.
In the final hand, Yorick had a x5 multiplier and Canio at the time had a x39 multiplier.
Yorick does push the total multiplier upto x2.351e12. However, Blueprinting Canio needs to somehow make up for Blueprinting Trib just being 1.278 million times better. If only Mr. Streamer destroyed 1130 face cards smhmh
Okay, apparently there are some minor differences between console and PC but I got fundamentally the same run. Instead of polychrome on the King I was able to get every card to be a spade for totem. So without polychrome/totem Trib beats out S&B handedly (e19 with S&B, e22 with Trib.)
However if you add Polychrome/totem (both 1.5x when scored) S&B barely beats out Trib. 3.297e27 for Trib and 3.814e27 for S&B.
You didnt need to force eris build at the end, you could have maintained 5 of a kind by merely changing some kings suits
1 king have x1.5 from poly, x2 from glass, x2 from Triboulet it all makes x6. And next it retrigers from: red seal, Sock and Buskin, blueprint. So 6x6x6x6=x1296 make each king
5:35 We have assembled Exzodia. 😂
I feel really bad about Roffle not using strength on the 10, then hanging both Js on hand at 12:31 to turn Canio into x3
By my understanding, copying Sock and Buskin retriggers the chip score, Triboulet, AND the polychrome effect for each king- an extra 3^5 multiplier (1.5*2 for each king) and +50 chips- while copying Triboulet only gets an extra 2^5. That should be about 7.6 times more for copying Sock and Buskin over Triboulet.
In general, our score is (base chips + chip score) * (base mult) * (multiplier per king)^5. Now, if we copy neither, what does this end up being. Well the chip score is 50 and the multiplier per king is (polychrome mult * glass mult * triboulet mult)^number of triggers = (1.5*2*2)^2=6^2. Our score should then be (base chips + 50) * base mult * 6^10.
Now, let's copy sock and buskin. The change to chips is easy. We just get another 50. Now what about the mult per king. Well, we get another trigger, so instead of 6^2 we get 6^3. This means our final value is (base chips + 100) * base mult * 6^15. Ignoring the chip increase, this would be an increase of 6^5 (so you were right except you for got about glass).
What about copying triboulet. Well, for this one our chip score is still 50. However, the multiplier per king is (polychrome mult * glass mult * triboulet mult * triboulet mult)^number of triggers = (1.5*2*2*2)^2=12^2. That makes our total score (base chips + 50) * 12^10. This is an increase of a factor of 2^10. You forgot that copying triboulet gives an extra x2 mult per time each king triggers, so it also benefits from the sock and buskin.
Now which is better. (Score when copying sock and buskin) / (score when copying treboulet) = (base chips + 100) /(base chips + 50) * 6^15/12^10. 6^15 = 2*3)^15 = 2^15 *3^15 and 12^10 = (2^2*3)^10 = 2^20*3^10. That makes 6^15/12^10 = 3^5/2^5. Therefore (Score when copying sock and buskin) / (score when copying treboulet) > 1 so copying sock and buskin is better. However, note that the actual base is important. If they were red seal glass cards, but not polychrome, we would get the difference being a factor of 4^15/8^10 = 2^30/2^30 = 1.
@@matthewma11hew I see I did indeed not do the napkin math right. Thanks for the knowledge!
every time I try this run, the first Soul Joker is Canio, THEN triboulet, idk how tf I'm supposed to make that work lmfao in order to buff Canio, I need to get rid of face cards like wtf
54:00 if you over score by a factor of 100000, it isn't the end of the world if you miss a handful of points lol
I have to wonder... Is there a limit to how high the score can get?
like, if it crosses some threshold does it overflow into negative numbers or crash the game?
The game displays it as naneinf (not a number x 10 ^ infinity) once your score goes above approximately 1.8e308
35:30 "I've seen very few hung men"
I'm playing this seed tomorrow. Insane
How did you get 3 consumable slots at around 6:10? It just went from 2/2 to 2/3
Negative cards don't take up any slots. When you obtain a negative card, it creates the effect of having an extra slot.
@President_Biden cool!
@President_Biden Biden is a cat
Perkeo does that I'm pretty sure
i cant unsee that black and white joker giving the sloppy toppy ☹🙂
Would love to watch you play something like the baldurs gate games
If you really wanted a death so badly using the fools found in the shop was a mistake since you could have held on to it and found a death from a pack.
If you get all 5 legendaries it should be like Exodia and you just win the run
I have to ask, at such large mults, wouldn't it be beneficial to start stacking chips since that seems to be a bottleneck for how effective your xMult cards impact?
How do you play so well??? I cant figure out whether I should discard or play!