How Did the Koreans Change Sabre Fencing?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Korean fencing has come a long way in the last 20 years and sabre hasn't been the same since the likes of Won Woo Young and Oh Eunseok first stepped on the strip.
As always shout ou to @CyrusofChaos for footage.
Follow Slicer Sabre on Instagram:
/ slicersabre
This video kind of veered off in a funny direction and didn't really answer the question in the title. I tried to include clips from many different Korean fencers* (I think at least 5 different Kims lol) to give a good taste of k-sabre.
The question that I can't really answer is this:
Did the Korean's success cause sabre refereeing to change or did the change in refereeing cause the Korean success?
It's probably not so black and white but I'd love to know what you think.
*I didn't include any women because you can't really compare the men's game with the women.
What do high level referees have to say about it? I admit I don't know any world championship level refs, but I know a few mid level. Whenever I ask them about changes in sabre reffing, I have to say the answers are pretty unsatisfactory. They are happy enough to tell me the What, but not the Why.
Well tbh in women's fencing game, Korean women's have been dominating. They got something different. Speed and aggressiveness...
Way back in the 1970s the hungarian saber fencers were so far in advance of anyone else in technique that the two top hungarian male fencers decided who would get what titles at the start of the year. It was ok you have the national champioship and I will have the European championship. They were that good and that far in advance of anyone else. Modern fencers especially ASIAN FENCERS ARE CRAP.
@@tonytrott6318 , you sure about that? In the book By The Sword, the author Richard Cohen puts that dominant time for the Hungarians back about 20 years, into the 50s.
@@donaldbadowski290 it was later than that for sure I saw a video where they interviewed two of the top Hungarian saber fencers and showed their training. the difference between what they were doing and anyone else at the time was implementing sports science fitness training methods such as plyometrics. And they were manipulating the swords correctly not just fly swatting. They also had correct control of distance lets not forget that Mr Cohen is an author not a fencing coach or sports scientist
Well that last bit...Koreans start training from very young age -> that's true, but I am not sure if they receive a whole lot of "State Support". Our National team selection is going on rn, but there's no broadcast of any kind(well except for the teams finals for male and female saber). Our national saber team coach was fired few years ago because of the loooooong history of misconduct including illegally obtaining prize money from his athletes, and KFF doesn't seem to promote fencing as a whole that much even now when the whole country has realized how well our fencers doing in the international events. It's a whole lot more of our fencers' sacrifice that made Korean saber great, rather than the "State Support".
Yeah, that conclusion at the end of the video regarding state support is utterly wrong. Notice how there’s literally zero supporting evidence, just a bald statement at the end. Ridiculous.
You know, it's the same everywhere. There's close to no media coverage of fencing in France and Italy, whose federations sustain themselves from fencer's licenses and entry fees at national level competitions with no government backup. Now top athletes always have some sort of help you know, either the federation does help, or top athletes have a centralized state-supported national training center for athletes of all disciplines, this kind of stuff. I mean they did not have to leave Korea and everything behind like Bhavani Devi so they must've found enough support in their own country.
You're missing the point here. As @mensrea stated, this clip doesn't provide any support for the last statement. You can always compare any situation with others to find the ones who are having it harder than yourself. It's just not a productive way to engage any matter.
Except it’s misleading to suggest there’s some turbocharged, national support infrastructure in place in Korea for the sport. Utterly false. There’s some funding available but those are relatively recent and came about only because the Koreans started doing well in world competitions, not the other way around, the funding itself is modest (archery, taekwondo, short track speed skating for example all enjoy funding literally orders of magnitude larger than fencing) and I assure you fencing of any variation is not in any shape or form known, enjoyed or popular in Korea. An excellent, thought provoking video marred by a ridiculous conclusion.
As a Korean, I would have to agree. Korea is not willing to invest in sports infrastructure if there's no medals to show for it. So first, Koreans need to gain medals in order for more funding to come in.
@@Mr2Reviews As a Korean? You are a liar 😊
@@KrMorgan12 What do you mean? You don't think I'm Korean?
@@Mr2Reviews This narrative is used a lot when it comes to Korea, usually for media like film/tv/music, it's really strange. I never would have thought it would make its way to fencing. Like no, no one in the Korean national assembly handed Bong Joon Ho a bag of money to make an Oscar winning movie. As if throwing money at an artistic endeavor is all it takes. Kpop idols don't get a government check to spread finger hearts across the world.
Outside of typical government spending on academic programs that most modern economies would deploy, there's no secret sauce. Why do people think it some sort of failing by their country, if another country does a thing? They search for some dirty trick or unfair advantage to explain it away.
@@KrMorgan12clown comment of the week.
Loved your video. That being said, I'm not sure about 'athletes being able to train from very young age' part, since most fencers in RoK take up the sport while in middle school. Compared to those from other countries, this is a fairly late age to start. Fortunately, the fencing infrastructure in RoK has improved a lot since 2012, but we may be a generation away from really seeing the effects- world cadets and juniors went very well for Korea, but they gotta sustain that a bit more into years after that since few major national teams were away then.
Many countries don't have sports high schools and universities like RoK has. It's less about how young they are and more about how the talented ones are given the chance to train pretty seriously in high school.
@@SlicerSabre Training intensely even before the high school may be a performance boosting, but from what I've seen, it restricts the students' choice of career paths. We're now transitioning into studying athletes, but up until a few years ago, these student athletes would have to skip classes to follow the training schedule and tournaments. It's somewhat restricting their right to receive proper education.
Huh wtf are you talking about...all the fencing academies here in Seoul offer classes for kids from as young as elementary school age...
Well this Olympics sure showed that South Korea has a great men and women’s fencing team 😊
Thanks for the vid! I’d expand a bit and say that after the shortened lockout time circa 2004, referees stopped calling any attack in preparation if one fencer was moving forward and the other backwards. The implicit logic was that if both lights were on, meaning both fencers hit within 1 tenth of a second, then the attack must have been initiated on time. That was refereeing’s biggest mistake, because it tied the definition of an attack to the lights.
The South Korean coaches and fencers realized this and pushed it to its limit. Every marching/bouncing/sliding attack was about maintaining maximum preparation. If you’re always in preparation, then you’re never falling short. And if you’re physically skilled enough to react to an incoming attempt at attack-in-preparation, then you’re good because there’s no way the referees will call it against you.
And then as the video points out, the big innovation was them thinking… “well, what if we start our preparation early… like right off the line?” And of course adding the countless hours of physical training to back the theory up with practice.
Yeah, it’s wild. I admire them a lot. I am positive there is another rules change or interpretation change coming up because the European powers will want a chance to catch up. But I’m sure the Korean team will adapt again.
Your comment reminds me of the DVDs of fencing I would get back then, the only way I could actually see high level fencing. Up until 2003 I thought (from watching these videos) that I had a good grasp of what was an attack. Then I'm watching the fencing with the new timings, and I couldn't tell what the ref was seeing as an attack by this guy over that guy. But I kept watching them, and before long I could tell the difference, clearly. But that was then, 2003, 2004.
The core of "K-saber' i think is " the countless hours of physical training", 15 point ----they "maintaining maximum preparation" from beginning to the end
Thanx for explaining, it tells a lot. The Korean sabre-phenomenon has always been a great mystery for me. I've understood that there's been a massive national campaign for this as well, but as a Korean gentelman states here above that there's never been any significant financial support for it from the state, I'm still quite confused. Sure they made it all much faster, agressive and attack-based, but now the Europeans have become faster in defensive and counter-attacking strategies in response, cutting the distances shorter, and the Koreans are on the verge to lose their dominance, as I can see. Sure they will counter-respond as well... Yes, very interesting times in sabre.
OH sanguk is genuinely going to be one of the GOATS in sabre fencing
you might be right, coming from the future
Ksabre changed fencing by making it more athletic, which I think is waaaaaay more exciting for (and improved) sabre, even though it (along with the various timing changes) introduced a host of problems (defense nerfed, lots of simultaneous calls, FIE experiments with the rules, etc, fencers purposely falling over...).
Fencers, I feel, now have to be a lot more methodical, thoughtful, and strategic about which actions they take.
Modern fencing is rubbish you have never seen proper sabre fencing. There hasnt been a properly trained fencer competing internationally since the 1960s
@@tonytrott6318 utterly untrue. Olympics fencing is duel-like, not warlike. It's a touchgame, not a deathgame
I think the opposite
GARBAGE YOU JUMP AROUND LIKE THAT USING REAL SWORDS YOU ARE DEAD. MODERN FENCING IS GARBAGE AND AN INSULT TO THE FENCING MASTERS WHO DEVELOPED THE SPORT.
You can’t hold the Koreans responsible for the Russians changing the rules and/or cheating because they couldn’t figure out how to beat the Korean two step lunge.
Koreans are fast and good with hand eye coordination sports. Tkd footwork influence is also unmistakable
Korean brought fast pace and athleticism
My coach once said their absurd flexibility and athleticism completely changed the game. And because of those attributes, they were able to start quickly in the box while still maintaining control.
So in other words, they made it cool.
did the Koreans change sabre fencing or did they capitalize on the changes that were inevitably happening anyway?
yes. ;)
I mean both are arguably true. They worked hard and rose even when there was the RBOD. It's good fencing, no gimmicks. When you're that good, you influence the sport while also adapting to the changes out of your control.
Nice video!
I have an interesting observation. Koreans have adapted some taekwondo specificities to sabre.
Because the sabre is not a real sabre and is too light (your are going for the charge/no retreat), speed becomes more important than power. If you've noticed how the Koreans are moving, it is very similar to taekwondo (flexibility, bouncing long attacks, double/triple chassés on the same leg especially On Sangkuk ), even some rules are similar (you have to hit the torso mainly). In real sabre you won't jump/bounce that much as the sabres are way heavier and are encountering the risk of being pushed back because of not having enough mass.
Def Korean influence... the footwork and timing is very similar to taekwondo. The bouncing thing is straight TKD
Great video but a bit disappointing in that I was expecting a review of the masterminds(trainers) behind the Korean Sabre revolution and why did they came up with these new ideas/ways
thats because tae kwon do is fencing but your legs are the rapiers
Koreans foot works are very similar to Taekwondo foot works
It shows how much the rules and the directors influence the action. While physical training is greatly improved than previous generations, the current level of speed and aggression reminds me much more of Saber competition when the fleche was still allowed. I'm thinking specifically of Jarek Koniusz and Uri Gelman.
Yeah, I'm entirely happy that flesh attack as such was cancelled - I was active in sabre fencing when the flash attack was introduced and highly promoted in the 70'ies, and that looked as the death of sabre fencing in general. And thus I quitted. Yet, it's nostalgic to watch and recall these flash attacks of those "Goode olde times"... 💔💔💔
I don't think they changed it. They simply adapted to every letter of the changing regulations. And their support base is top-notch. These athletes are so agile and nimble.
World cup in Portugal back in 2000, Korean fencer jump planks in the air avoiding Polish fencer thrust, hits Polish fencer in the back. falls to the ground. Most anime irl shit I have seen. He literally went horizontal in the air. Polish fencer was looking up in disbelief.
do you have a clip?
@@jamescharles5907 nope. It was a poule round iirc. And before smartphones.
You're killing it man! Great work!!! I remember watching Won literally run Limbach over in the the 2010 WCH. I thought, finally the slow, refs punishing everything saber, take advantage of op's hand hold or footfall was over but little did I know they would f things up in 2016. Best era was 2010 to 2016.
That said, just wait until November.
90ms and running. We might even get "smart sabers", which can detect a proper cut so all the magic wand and whippo actions are removed from the sport once and for all. It's all gonna be about hand speed and ever so slight body postioning. No need to convince the high priests of ROW that you were slightly ahead because your trunk is leaning forward more as you stab with the point.
Sounds like you just want to see epee with sabres
@@SlicerSabre I just wanna see the power of ref's diminished and the true logic of ROW returned to our noble sport. If you read into the literature of the sport starting in th 70's you'll see that there is already a lashback against the ref's bending of the spirit of the rules and calling attacks that are not really attacks. See what Laslo Szabo has to say about this in "Fencing and the Master." This opened up pandora's box and is what led to the prohibition on running attacks in saber. This is a huge topic and I could go on for ages but I definitely do not want to see saber turned into epee, at least as far as you might understand the modern game of epee. Nevertheless, one master , whose work was heavily palgiarized by Bruce Lee or people in his company, considered the epee and saber more similar to each other than foil because of the fact that the arm is a valid target.
I'm with you on reducing the power of the ref but the I don't think bringing back crossing and captors will help with that.
They are just incredibly fast....
2:15 amazing!
Okay, definitely seeing some influences from sport Taekwondo. The emphasis on mobility and staying light on your feet (hence the bouncing), as well as increased emphasis on mixups to create openings.
The next big question is why other nations haven't been able to emulate the success of the Koreans. After all, Chinese sabreurs just look like a crude parody of K sabre . . .
Yeah I think the Chinese men have been under performing a lot in recent years
I fenced foil in college, in the day when foil was electric but sabre was still judged. I can still follow foil right of way reasonably well, but I was completely lost watching sabre at this last Olympics!
All this, and the Russians STILL want to bring back the fleche....the RBoD being a failure didn't give you a clue that you should NOT give the Koreans an excuse to go even faster??
After watching this I'm left more unsure than before, but it's really interesting
its all because na hee do made it great
The Koreans did to fencing what Bruce Lee did to martial arts in that it cut through classical dogma and perceived thinking that everyone hitherto just accepted without question and unchained the athleticism and freedom of expression that the human body is capable of. It's ironic that whilst Bruce's Jeet Kune Do was derived primarily from Julio Martinez Castello's treatise on fencing (Bruce's older brother was a Hong Kong fencing champion) and Jack Dempsey's Championship Boxing, the Koreans took the fencing rule book and deconstructed the sport, putting it back together in an altogether less conventional manner. Whilst their success was possibly down to initial shock and awe and the element of surprise, their techniques have definitely changed the sport in the last 20 years. The fencing is now faster, edgier and the fencers move more explosively and freely than fencers from as recently as the 90's. It's like comparing a classical karateka with a modern MMA fighter.
Agree with everything here but Bruce took inspiration/plagiarism from another fencing book actually published in Hong Kong in the sixties. It was later republished in the early 70's and I shit you not, there are fricking entire pages of inspiration/plagiarism where Bruce simply replaces the word "fencer" for "fighter."
I'm not going to say the name of the book but I will say all of this is an art and a sport.
@@esgrimaxativa5175 I'm assuming you're referring to the Aldo Nadi book? I can't comment on that thought I have Julio Martinez Castello's book and also the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and there are huge sections lifted direct from that and somewhere, on record, it is acknowledged that Bruce took a lot from the Castello book. Nadi and Castello were both classical fencers trained in a similar manner so the basic principles Bruce drew on were broadly the same irrespective of the book he read. You can see this even in the more comprehensive notes compiled by John Little in the Jeet Kune Do book by Tuttle publishing. 'Plagiarism' is probably too strong a word for it as the Tao of JKD was never really supposed to have been published. It was a distilled from copious personal notes that Bruce took from reading books on combat and fencing from his personal library. He was a student of the combat arts and he expanded upon and developed the ideas and concepts he learnt and read about, as all good students should.
@@celestialtoystore I have read all the books you mentioned. Nadi's book is from the 40's and is not the one I'm talking about. Bruce's people wanted to make money off of his notes and so they could be the ones to be held accountable for plagiarism. This is the correct word. I have "Tao de JKD" and I assure you without any doubts that much of this book was plagiarized from western fencing and specifically from a book I also happen to have from the 70's published in Hong Kong. UA-cam is great. Now go do your homework on fencing books in English from that era. I already gave you a clue in my previous post.
@@esgrimaxativa5175 If you have indeed read the books then you will see exactly where the books I have mentioned have been excerpted in Bruce's notes. He may have used other books and probably did. Bruce's personal library contained over 2500 books. Castello, Nadi and Crosnier are three fencing authors that are known to have been drawn upon by Bruce, by multiple sources including his wife, Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong and Taki Kimura. I don't see what the big secret is unless it's some kind of douchebag powerplay to appear smug and more knowledgeable? If you're going to play the condescending prick, your choice but please don't patronise me. Either say it or don't allude to it as what purpose does it actually serve to not say it? So you can say "I know something you don't?". You don't come across as knowledgeable, you just come across as a smug, patronising asshole. And yes, UA-cam is great as everyone can appear to be an expert ;-)
@@esgrimaxativa5175 Out of interest, how likely is it that Bruce would have drawn upon a book that was published in the 70's when he died in 73 and the majority of his JKD notes were written in the 60's?
Thanks for giving them the credit!
Koreans be true gamers
Having been an éppée fencer some 20 years ago with not a lot of admiration of sabre back then, I have to say... this is what I call fencing... the attack at 2:57... thats just... beautiful... everything you train for is there...
Why did you use a stereotypical Chinese-style font in the thumbnail?
Do they have long arms compared to their height? This would give arm speed advantage. It gives advantage in a multitude of sports.
I love the idea of coaches just being put in crates and shipped overseas
Is it just me or are a lot of the long lunge attacks in the video scoring on the remise after the foot lands? Not exactly sure how that helps when they're belting their way down the piste at you but something to note.
The game's just changing, for the better, of course.
Traditionalists can pick up rusted, 200 year old metal rods and have fun dueling to the death ;)
I really wish fencing would do a complete remake, and change the car antennas into something that has some resemblance to the weapons the categories are named after. Oh, and only give points for hits with edge and point.
While I can enjoy the athleticism,It looks more like competitive gymnastics to me than fencing.
i've noticed that the way the koreans fence in terms of en' garde and movement is similar to taekwondo
I had the same observation.
watched it again and you are right. Great observation.
Best fencing channel on UA-cam. How does this not get more views? lol
Oh, it does. I'm a brand new subscriber here - just a year later! 😃
Korean sabre is being given the same love as archery. Is it any wonder the people who train hard from early childhood do better?
With archery there's many practice sites and clubs around Korea but Fencing is relatively new for Koreans, very few take up fencing in Korea in reality.
...those ain't sabers. Those are thin as hell rapiers.
Real rapiers were thicker.. Historical rapiers were 1 - 1.5 kg of weight. Sabres were 0.7 to over kilo. Today’s sport sabres are around 0.4 kg. It is a joke.
The modern sport sabre is descended not from the heavy cavalry sabre as is commonly thought, but from the thinner Italian duelling sabre which is basically a rapier under another name.
@@celestialtoystore oh, okay. Thank you for that info.
This video aged well.
the background music too loud
your voice is a bit quiet relative to the other sounds in the video
The last message is very important. Its not opposition to classical training, nor moving more freely, nor any Bruce Lee-MMA nonsense - its just how combat sports work, while introduced athletes who can train more and with better support.
Except it’s misleading to suggest there’s some turbocharged, national support infrastructure in place in Korea for the sport. Utterly false. There’s some funding available but those are relatively recent and came about only because the Koreans started doing well in world competitions, not the other way around, the funding itself is modest (archery, taekwondo, short track speed skating for example all enjoy funding literally orders of magnitude larger than fencing) and I assure you fencing of any variation is not in any shape or form known, enjoyed or popular in Korea. An excellent, thought provoking video marred by a ridiculous conclusion.
Nice little video on the evolution of sabre fencing from a korean perspective. Love the kung-fu panda clip haha
Very interesting video ending sealed the deal, gave me a the lolz
Hopefully there will be dual sabre combats eventually
I mean, they didn't change only the Sabre, also the epee, my coach wants my lunges to be so long I can get to the other side of the piste, and he wants me to be very light and jump a lot on my feet
独孤九剑，以攻为守，后发先至，直指破绽
I wish you would do these types of videos for foil and epée. I really enjoyed this
Wait, is nobody going to comment on that insane touch at 4:31? :O
0:03 - How in the hell did the guy on the left win when he was the one retreating?
One light
Two new sports I’d like to see: Foil with the sabre target area, and sabre without right of way. The latter in particular could be pretty fun! Hell, how about sabre without right of way and with the ability to score a touch anywhere (epee target). That’d be cool, I bet.
you might as well fence epee...
I'm interested to learn why bouncing works
Hi, Noah! Just based on my experience as a fencer, it gives the most decision-making time while still maintaining a veneer of "forward motion" to satisfy the referees' interpretation of an attack. And of course you'd notice that it's not the same as epee bouncing, which is quick and short. In sabre, the goal is to elongate the movement, so that you can spring load for a long (f)lunge, and then if it's not the right time for a (f)lunge, the "bounce" is a quick release to get into the next loading movement with minimal risk. It's more of a front-loaded slide step, or whatever feels most comfortable to the individual fencer.
Bouncing constantly reloads kinetic energy into the lower body and core to enable explosive acceleration. And what Mr Etropolski said too.
It's not something to get too hung up on. It literally 'keeps you on your toes' and helps you more physically ready to attack and defend, and it let's a fencer harness their adrenaline. Similar to why boxers do it.
Also the latest training emphasizes more hopping and springing, so it probably feels more integrated. But some folks do fine without it, too.
The action of Kim Junho is non-correct fencing. He cannot put the hand in the piste. Ref should have stopped the match and given a yellow.
It really gets dumber by the decade.
If a sport includes a judge's opinion on if you're doing it "right" it's probably a bad sport.
So all sports are bad sports lol
Dude just went here to say some nonsense. Its ok i guess
@@SlicerSabre sorry I hurt your feelings. Hey runner, you didn't win, you swung your arms wrong!
@@TigerDude333 okay, buttercup. Walk away with the L.
If Koreans did this then why do we keep getting disrespected by the international community and Olympics 2024?
European arrogance. Tired of getting beat
Tired of losing to men considered weaker, smaller and inferior at their own game. rofl hahaha
Dude, improve your Voice tone. You sound like you're giving a speech in a funeral. All the besta always ;)
The Koreans imported Russian coaches in the 90s in all three weapons. Their home grown coaches didn’t just come from nowhere.
Actually Koreans went to Eastern Europe to learn fencing, and then they went back to Korea and started training regime.
Koreans might be the best fencers, Just remember my sword will always be bigger
All modern fencing is rubbish. The Sabre fencers are hitting with the flat of the blade. The judges have no understanding of right of way. The electric box ruined sabre. along with the elimination of off target hits. preveting following on target hits Modern fencers do not understand that at foil the electric box only tells you if a hit is on target or off target or off target then on target. The electric box in no way tells you the right of way or timing. Also now they are saying a movement forward is an attack, No it is a movement forward. An attack is the extension of the arm with the point of the sword being aimed at the target area of the enemy. Everything they do is designed solely to cheat and to try to get the electric light on the box to come on first.The fencers are using pistol grips instead of french grips and so do not manipulate the blade with the fingers correctly, They do not realise that the pistol grip was developed in the `8940s by a dfencer in his eighties with severe arthritis so that he could continue to fence. The result o modern fencer manipulates the sword correctly and they have no concept of sentiment de fer. A disengage should be lless than one inch in size but watch a video and you will see that they are using their wrist to disengage so the disengage becomes about a foot and a half in size. They attack with bent arms jab and poke it is awful. The eppe fencers are not fencing eppee they use foil technique but fence epee rules. They did away with the negative hits and ruined epee because they said people watching the sport could not understand how someone could win with a negaive hit, but they neve bothered explainig the rules when epee was on tv.Modern fencers have never seen correct or proper fencing. I was fortunate in that I was taght classic french foil, epee and sabre by the last person to teach it. And now I hear that they have even made the bib at foil part of the target area. Why because they could not manipulate the blade correctly and were attacking with a bent arm and had incorrect footwork to control distance so they kept hitting off target. Then they also started cheating by icreasin the size of the bib to cover more target area. The only way they could ever have correct fencing again is to bring back sharp swords then they might learn why the rules were written and how to fence correctly.
Ah yes, the classic "I'm actually the only person in the world who knows how to fence" comment.
@@SlicerSabre ok explain to me what sentiment de fer is and how to teach it. There has not been a decent fencer in competition since the 1960s
@@SlicerSabreYou did not address one singe issue that I raised just slag me off which tells me that you do not know how to coach fencing or how to fence correctly
Why would I argue with the greatest living swordsman? Clearly your understanding of fencing is unparalleled.
@@SlicerSabre Very funny! 🤣🤣🤣 However, there's at least 1 point in which I agree with the old-school gentelman above. "Attack is the movement of the hand forward to the target of the body". Yes, here I get confused myself: the contemporary judges view very carefully whose leg moved forward first - but this is not an attack - this is, indeed, just a moving forward?!? I've been taught on the contrary: yes, you start an attack with a preparationary step forward, but then you just shoot with your hand like a bullet from a gun - no pull-backs, no preparations - and your front leg and all the rest of the body comes afterwards - and that's a precise straight attack (in the box). If you decide to pull your hand back instead, that is, yes, "a preparation", or a faked (or a truely attempted (and probably failed) parry already, but here we come to "blind fencing"; however it doesn't change the definition of an attack, to my mind. Hand first - this initiates the attack, and then all of your body flies after it. This is how I've been taught, and how I understand. Am I wrong in smth?
First of all I'm Hungarian and always hope Hungarians will cut through the rest of the world in sabre fencing.
BUT:
Today's sabre fencing is much like a running race of 100m or a series of them. Taking this into account, physical fitness and explosiveness is much, much more important than ever. And, yes, the Koreans played a great role in changing the style of sabre fencing into this direction.
The other key elements are state funding and sheer numbers. State funding is also present in Hungary but it's probably the case that average Hungarian children have less opportunities to fence at high levels. In Hungary, fencing is still a sport of the "elite", even if there are some good fencing clubs outside Budapest. And, after some time, you ultimately have to move to Budapest (with your family, which is not easy at all) if you are good enough to potentially become a national team member.
Sheer numbers are also important. The population of Korea is more than five times the population of Hungary. More to say, Seoul is about six times as big as Budapest (the difference is even bigger if we take the agglomeration into account), so even if Korean fencing faces the same kind of "elitism" that Hungary does, they have a lot more people to choose from. The money do they have from state funding.
But you still have that superb Hungarian technique to fall back on.
@@iainmcclure416 In general, yes, but it's much harder to rely on if you face the enormous pressure of being pushed down from the piste and this is what the Koreans do. It is a fact that before the Rio Olympics (yes it was probably Rio), the Hungarian team flew to Korea for a training camp which turned out to be _hugely_ important for Áron Szilágyi in winning his second Olympic gold medal. Nevertheless, I did not pretend to be unhappy whenever a Korean fencer was knocked out by someone else at his actual event and this is what happened in Tokyo (and London) because the Koreans have at least _three_ fencers who are as good as he is. If you are forced to fall back on the piste against any Korean fencer then it's hopeless for you to score unless your name is Áron Szilágyi. It is a fact that on average, Hungarian team (of three or four) falls a bit behind the Koreans because _all_ of your team has to be stable to have a decent chance to beat them, one or two is not enough.
Among the women, Anna Márton often fences in a (kinda) similar style: if she is healthy, she forces _any_ opponent down the piste, except for the Russians who are very tough to beat. But she actually had a serious knee injury but her operation had to be postponed because of the Olympics... Her 4th place was a miracle with this injury. Her teammate, Liza Pusztai is still very young but you cannot be sure to win the bout even if you have a 14:0 lead against her...
Not true. There are more fencers in Hungary than in Korea. It’s way more popular in Hungary than in Korea. When the world championships were held in Budapest, there crowds of thousands watching live. Such scenes would be unimaginable in Korea. Popularity and interest trumps population of country, otherwise the US national football (soccer) team should dominate the world. State sponsorship for fencing in Korea is pitifully low, especially compared to how good the national level fencers are. Other sports (archery, taekwondo, short track speed skating, etc.) all receive orders of magnitude greater funding. In fact, funding for fencing in Korea, if it exists at all, only started trickling into the sport only very recently because the results of the fencers internationally for so long could no longer be ignored - not the other way around. The narrative that there’s some state level support for fencing and that’s the secret to the Koreans success is so far from the truth, it’s comical. It’s just false.
@@harczymarczy 멍청아 알지도 못하면서 사실인냥 싸지르지마.. 우리 나라 펜싱 전국체전, 대통령배, 오픈 대회 모두 관중이 없다. 관중에서부터 그렇게 차이가 나는데 멍청한가
I mean.. yes just by simple Google research, South Korea is 50% richer than Hungary, South Koreans live 6years longer than Hungarians blah blah blah.. I am sure with Korea being a richer country they have more money to invest in sports and in the fencing sport, but I really don't think that is the core reason why the Koreans are doing well.
I know Korea is not just one of, but the top country in the world where parents have very few children(under 1 child per family) and invest the most in the world in the one child they have. I really think this is the reason why not only in fencing, but in so many diverse industries the Koreans are excelling.. coupled with their very hard working school and work lifestyle, they are doing well in just about anything. I mean.. something like 90% of all Koreans have above college education so go figure..
Get parents from other countries to have fewer children like the Koreans do, and invest as much as the Koreans do in the few child(ren) they have, any child in any country can excel in anything.
Most stupid game i ever see. Only few rich people relate to this privilege game.
To me, this is why I don't enjoy fencing like I did Kendo. It's become so gimmicky, like tag instead of a combat sport. For a good points, one guy should be clearly dead, with bad points for when you both die or nobody dies. I'm way late to the party but it's Olympic time now and this is what the algorithm gave me. Excellent video and really interesting look into Ksabre and fencing. Thanks for sharing way back when lol
I see kendo as martial arts and fencing as a sport.
Kendo isn't in the Olympics for a reason. I'm sure Koreans and Japanese will dominate the Kendo as well as they dominated this year's championship.
Who cares
Russia apparently did, because they pushed the RBOD and it was interpreted by some as a way to counter Korean fencers, namely Gu Bon-gil.
Also, you can't really ignore them because the men's sabre team has won three consecutive world championships and two consecutive Olympic gold medals. In the past 11 years, 3 Koreans have won individual worlds for men's sabre (Young, Kim, Oh). Russia matches that with 3 of their own (Reshetnikov, Kovalev, Yakimenko).
I sound super pro-Korea, but I think it's very fair to say that a LOT of people care.
@@chukuemekaoje1015 And the RBOD really worked!!! It got rid of the box. Refs saw their jobs threatened and it was modified to having the crotch over the guard line which did nothing and so they got rid of it.
@@chukuemekaoje1015 *gu bon-gil what does 'RBOD' mean?
@@Choa207 RBOD = Russian Box of Death. It was essentially a shortening of the en garde lines from 4m to 3m (iirc initially fencers started with back foot on the en garde line, then it was modified).
It was supposed to solve the issue of simultaneous attacks and make counterattacks, stopcuts, and remises harder to do.
Podznyakov made a comment about how it would make athleticism less important (I'm paraphrasing).
It failed spectacularly and the project was quietly abandoned.
@@chukuemekaoje1015 making athleticism less important in the domain of sport is counter intuitive. For money it makes sense though, you don't want one country to dominate a discipline (like ping pong).
좀 제대로 알고 시부리자.
Sabre is not the best and spettacular.....
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Sud Korean are not tecnic and style.....and story.....
Www North korea! Www North korea!!