I know all my sword play from years of sparring and the flexibility of the swords and the point based on electric conductive system it is not at all similar to classic fencing and you can see this because the Spanish fencing tradition still practices with hard blades. ua-cam.com/video/AlZfB6g4-Yg/v-deo.htmlsi=lh4LNeJaej2UfGjR Looks like there is an awful lot of parrying and grabbing the sword hand. Whops a lot more like the movies than the sports fencing. Also you can clearly see just how much lateral movement truly matters in terms of getting the proper angle to be at a range where you can hit but they can’t hit you. The Spanish fencing movie you included is actually explaining the importance of lateral attacks in Spanish fencing. Oh in case you want to see the pre electric linear tradition. ua-cam.com/video/2NXYvhO08CI/v-deo.htmlsi=OqrSy72Dj-7_O8WO Again an incredible amount of parrying and back and forth. The quick snappy single shot snaps and thrusts are completely based on the elasticity and electronic registration. If how realistic it is doesn’t matter than the video doesn’t actually matter?? Like you made the video just to say you don’t actually care if there are logical counter arguments to anything because you love it. Than just love it than and make a video about how much you love it. I would have happily watched that and would have honestly enjoyed a lot more than feeling compelled to debunk your claims. If you don’t want an argument it is completely valid to just say I love this thing it’s rad I don’t care what anybody says it’s epic! And your honesty and heart would be way more respected than starting an argument and then pretending like the argument shouldn’t matter, it’s a dishonest and manipulative way of getting to a very human honest point. It’s just like someone saying they love karate because it’s awesome or Aikido or snowboarding. It’s the same like if you were like is snowboarding a good way to get around town and you made a much of one sided arguments and then concluded Who cares snowboardings awesome. Like why did you ask me to listen to your arguments if you don’t actually care about your arguments. You do understand that is literally wasting someone’s time. Imagine if your spouse argued about how you didn’t do enough for her or him and than after fourty minutes of you feeling like she’s making one sided arguments against you she was like you know what it doesn’t matter because I love you. Yeah… realistically you wouldn’t be like ok no problem I don’t mind you just made me think about a bunch of aggravation and argument. Just anytime you want to make up a random thing to argue about spend time making up reasons why I am wrong about something and just drop it’s totally cool to just jerk you around right. I think you know this was click bait and you could have just come out and said you think fencing cool regardless of what anybody says and this is why. Instead of pretending til the literal last moment. So, I trained KoRyu with my best friends in college and we literally sparred with bamboo sticks with zero armor except helmet and gloves. And I can tell you, nobody rushes when real severe pain is a distinct possibility. When a piece of bamboo shatters across your stomach or neck or chest, you don’t even rush in again. That is the main reason even most hema is wrong, because the fear of bodily harm completely and utterly changes your behaviors and makes you exceedingly focused on either dominating an angle or entangling or playing just out of range. It was some of the most fun I ever had because it was so close to the real thing because you were afraid of the sword. Getting stabbed sucked, getting struck sucked and you just didn’t leap at people if it wasn’t your first time. A lot of kids who started at our club would leap forward and get smashed over the head literally shattering the bamboo and if they came back they actually started studying how to properly play angles and range and to slip entanglements. It was some manly stuff and incredibly fun and we did on many occasions get slight slashes over the hand or arms that in no way were counted. The rule was if the person fighting you wasn’t stopped by the pain of the attack unless it was a pull cut across the abdomen or neck etc. it wasn’t significant enough to stop the action. It didn’t happen all that much because most of the time we were hitting really really hard and fast. And that is how I have confidence in my ability to sword fight. I did fight a Chinese fencer who did fight one handed in a rapier type stance and he beat the crude out of me, it was an embarrassing moment at the time because I felt I was the best in the club and the guy just stopped by. But he played by our rules and with our equipment so when I say he beat me I mean it. So I am under no illusion the Japanese sword is superior it’s just what I know. A boss of mine who was an X mma fighter was trying to criticize me and he said, what’s the point you don’t carry a sword around and I said, yes but if you had a bat and I had a bat I know I would win. And that is not something Olympic style fencers can say because the force and weight difference and sheer violence doesn’t translate and that is the main reason why I don’t think you can say that modern fencing is realistic, because I don’t think an Olympic fencer could pick up a metal pole and have confidence where a hema practitioner absolutely would. That’s my opinion and I think it matters because the martial side of sword fighting if lost is a real lost and I think it absolutely is lost. And the main example for that is the fearless way they charge at eachother, traditional fencers wouldn’t do this because it would still be a serious danger even with padding. The lack of pain and danger changes your subconscious fear of the others weapon. That’s why I think it matters because the martial side is more than sport. Just as boxers often say that they are truly accepting they could die and that affects the spirit of the contestants I think the lack of danger has the opposite effect and invites a lack of seriousness that most sports have. Nobody is throwing in the towel in a basketball match because it’s too much punishment. Martial Arts involve a level of combat and combat is violence. I don’t believe Olympic fencing can be called violent, like Olympic Wrestling or Judo or Boxing can be called violent and that is why it is not realistic. That and the modern fencing I linked to earlier.
@@dorjedriftwood2731 I think you bring some valid points. As you said a lot of people get lost here in this HEMA vs MOF arguments, that are not part of the topic at all. Or how cool MOF is, which is also not part of the argument. And yes i believe that it is the presenter problem. The fact that he made this emotional non-informative video that is more about some inner conflict than sources and things to discuss is reason why it no-one is really talking about the problems. But i also do not like minimal gear fencing. I started with it mask and gloves only with steel rapiers.... and while it can give you something and people for some reason are inclining to it in HEMA nowadays to include it, i do not think it is really that beneficial. HEMA is violent enough (depends on region, but in Centreal and east Europe it sure is - and France is nice) in competitions, you also need play and easy atmosphere to learn and grow as it is scientifically proven that stress lowers learning. This sort of training stops growth and also introduces wierd habits in some people... it is not worth it in my opinion. Also some of the historical fencers did just that once the weapon allowed it. ua-cam.com/video/bfcpyMdEwzM/v-deo.html
Having trained primarily Sabre for three years, starting historical fencing was much easier then I expected. Training with more experienced historical fencers I was able to keep the score very close. The principles are the same for both sports, and most of the blade-work translates well
former olympic fencer and current HEMAist here: I agree with most of things you said. 2 exceptions: - stepping backwards is not ALWAYS the safest way. in the ruleset of olympic fencing, sure. but if you can hurt the opponent in other ways (kicking, grappling, punching, etc), sidestepping is often better. (also, if the opponent has that option too, he can just chase you until he gets close enough to do so.) - right of way. I don't like that. while what you said is true, and it prevents defending people from suicidal actions, it rewards the attacker for suicidal actions. its counterpart is the afterblow system, where attacker is punished for being suicidal and the defender is rewarded for it. that system is not perfect either, but I like that idea better.
but the defender is the one explicitly rejecting defending themselves from the threat established first so they can hit the other person, that makes no sense
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 there are a number of scenarios where it DOES make sense. 1. the difference in skill is so great, that the "defender" doesn't even realize he is getting attacked, and from his point of view, he merely attacks, resulting in a double hit. 2. the defender did try to defend, but he was unsuccessful, but the attacker did not inflict a serious wound, and the attack was reckless enough that it allowed an afterblow from the lightly injured defender 3. the goal of the "defender" is not to survive, but to kill the attacker, AND he is aware that his skills are inferior, so he deliberately disregards defending, in order to wound/kill the opponent. ROW is the result of a martial art transforming into a combat sport. (and I don't mean this in a negative way or as a disrespect, just as a fact.) since you are no longer in a life threatening danger, self preservation gets a smaller focus.
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 I didn't say it is a modern thing. I said, and I quote "ROW is the result of a martial art transforming into a combat sport."
@@szepi79 but its just not. Not any more than 16th century german longsword being clearly influenced by contemporary tournament rules also has the same effect
Great video! As a fairly active HEMA competitor who's been doing it a while and did some MOF and fought MOF-based fencers a fair amount. I agree with the physicality it can't be overestimated. The footwork thing is also important. I'd also like to point out the quality of HEMA training is hugely variable. The better clubs don't really have that much trouble dealing with people from an MOF background coming in unless the new fencer has taken the time to really learn HEMA. A note on the foot-hand disassociation. With heavier weapons you benefit from power generation from the full body. For example, boxing does not use disassociation on most blows because you need the power. Offline, at long ranges the only use that the offline is effective for tends to be denying launch on an attack, if you have to pivot to face, in that moment you can't launch an attack or if they do they are disadvantaged. That's a common strategy. The other use is as people close so you are at a boxing distance you move out and keep moving. Biggest thing I'd say though both from a realism and a translation to HEMA pov recognition of safe openings is a big thing. If you fight in an afterblow ruleset a big part of avoiding it comes from knowing which openings you can take and also get out. MOF fencers have a lot of instincts of what is a valid opening that can get them in trouble and quite heavily concussed.
Agreed -- you have to be careful using MOF techniques when fencing longsword. Some longsword guys will just swing really hard at your head and a longsword can easily crumple a fencing mask and cause a concussion. I've known one or two good fencers who suffered concussions and lost fencing masks because they went for the thrust or tap cut without covering against the revenge blow. With good body mechanics it takes very little preparation to make a devastating blow with a two-handed sword, since concussive head blows were kind of the point when the art was written down.
If you take actual real sword a lot of the "weak hits" from fencing makes serious wounds. Normal kitchen knife can accidentally cause serious wound while mishandled with near zero force, and its just a relatively dull knife. Its swordfighting agaisnt unarmored opponents. It has completely different dynamic to longsword for example that was mainly used against armored opponents in actual combat.
The thing is, sport fencing specifically evolved out of training for dueling with smallswords, originally. I don't know if anyone actually does smallsword HEMA as dueling with smallsword is pretty far removed from combat as-is, but I'd imagine the techniques unsurprisingly translate better to the actual use case. Pointing out it will get you concussed in something like longsword I feel is a bit akin to pointing out a champion air rifle shooter will end up with a sore shoulder of they try to translate their techniques to skeet shooting. True, but I think most recognize they're pretty different techniques despite both being shooty things.
Pain should teach "fear of the point" not an entirely subjective, arbitrary rule There were no judges IRL. Do boxers have to allow their opponents to punch them in the name of "right of way"? No, or course not.
@@krystofcisar469No because it's easier to double than it is to defend, so you will get fencers who make afterblows as ripostes without parries. Epeeists spend countless hours drilling their reflexes to counterthrust the moment they feel their parry fail. Fear of the blade should dictate that the fencer who lost the initiative defends as if their health depends on it, rather than facetank it like the living dead.
@KarlKarsnark no judges irl?? what do you mean by irl. fencing is a real sport in real life that has judges. historically, judicial duels were made with witnesses and judges to record results and officiate the duel. im not sure what you're getting at here.
@@KarlKarsnark the rule isn't really arbitrary. Its application is somewhat with the advent of electrical scoring. But that rule was used contemporaneously with actually training people to duel, which you'd obviously rather do in a less deadly way than an actual duel, and it worked pretty well.
As a relatively new HEMA fencer, I've always respected and loved Olympic fencing for what it is. I hear the arguments back and forth, but I genuinely don't understand why some people get so hung up on comparing styles or individual sports. Kendo, other eastern sword martial arts, Olympic Fencing, and HEMA are so vastly different and unique, and that's why I like them. Don't get me wrong, everyone has a bias to a degree, but I just find it silly to get so "technical" when it's a non-issue. Most of the time, at least.
HEMA and Kendo are much closer to the "real" thing compared to "Olympic" fencing, or "Olympic" anything for that matter. Just look how its ruined Judo. This form of "sword play" is just a glorified game of Tag! and should be treated more akin to boxing where you trade blows for a given amount of time, rather than one hit, stop, scream, beg the judge for points, stop, scream, beg the judges for points....It's as obnoxious as it is unrealistic. "Fake fighting" is dumb and a waste of everyone's time. Boxers draw blood from time to time and should "swordsmen".
@@KarlKarsnarkModern fencing evolved from duels to first blood, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a boxing style system. Even if it didn't evolve from that, it's pretty hard to just keep going after getting hit with a fucking sword. Also, yelling is done in plenty of sports and martial arts, fencers absolutely do draw blood occasionally, fake fighting is much better than killing each other and you clearly have never fenced or weren't very good if you think fencing is like a game of tag.
I take some issue with the examples you used for HEMA. There is a TON of linear styles. But the one you showed for non-linear fencing is literally an entire style developed in spain for the purposes of not leaping straight into someones blade. That style does not focus on the attack nor linear movement for the exact reason of personal safety. This spanish style is entirely about the bind. Something that is very hard to do on an epee or foil because the blades just arent rigid enough. Then for your example of the linear HEMA fighter. Robert Childs is one of the best historical rapier fencers in the world specifically training that low guard linear lunge style. Its great, but you need to be suuuuuuuuuper careful or you will double. I would know, its the style i train. The primary issues that a lot of modern HEMA people have with MOF is the doubles, the blade flex, and the lack of Quillons. Its so hard to do a proper displacement and lunge without quillions. You basically have to fully commit to the parry. The blades are so flexy that doing a proper bind is damn near impossible. Since you can kinda just muscle the blade out when retreating (as well as no quillions for locking the blade, especially if you have forward swept ones). Doubles gets its own paragraph. I really, really dont care if i stabbed you first, if im also bleeding out on the ground. MOF just looks so suicidal to me because of the disregard for doubling. Its a substantial reason HEMA and most historical duels didnt rocket off like in MOF. Personally, i have the physicality to fence at a collegiate level (in regard to speed). But i dont, because if a launch like that. Im gonna eat steel (which i did before i learned to slow down). And even if i got him first, i still lose. So picking your moment to lunge is far more important than out muscling them. Again watch the robert childs clip. He sees the guy moving around, and the moment he steps in range, bam. 1 shot, no wasted movement.
@@konstantin3374The ref is to give the parry repost to the one who properly defended and fluidity of the blade (whip over) is not to be counted. It's in the the book "Modern Fencing" by Navy coach Clovis Deladrier.
MOF changed a lot when they introduced electric scoring. It became a lot faster but far more detached from its origins. And to me it's just not interesting to watch most sabre tournament matches, even with Right of Way/Row rules (which are not being used as written), because it's kinda what you said. They are suiciding into eachother, and the first one to hit, got the point. However, there is also plenty to be said about HEMA's obsession with doubles and the afterblow, to the point people use it to salvage lost exchanges as late counter attacks or failed voiding/timed cuts. Even though I consider RoW as being flawed as a rule system, I consider it a lot better than the bs you see in many HEMA sabre tournaments, simply for the fact that it teaches people to defend themselves. There's plenty of cases where people fight with overly heavy sabers (800g-900g) and their strategy for the defense is just using distance traping and timed cuts, rarely parrying, simply because they know they can't enter parry-riposte dialogues with those sabers so they are better off trying to time the opponent and if they fail they are "saved" by the double, rules-wise... In principle, they hide behind the idea that "the attacker was also 'suicidal' so both are to be blamed", which was something RoW fixed. Also, we already have historical rules to be used for military tournaments "on the ground" (not RoW, since those were for the "salle"). Even if a lot of tournaments are using some variation of it, they forget one important thing about them - jackasses who were doubling out with out of tempo afterblows could be kicked out of the competition for simply being considered bad fencers, which makes a lot more sense than punishing both fencers for the stupidity of one of them. In both cases, MOF or HEMA, tournaments end up ruining the sport, and I simply couldn't care less about them. That's why I tend to have the historical context always present when I bout, instead of just seeking the point to win a medal. RoW is helpful to judge who should be defending, and the martial context is important to make sure you don't attack without the ability to recover afterwards.
The HEMA thing about doubling is weird though because it's more a problem in HEMA afterblow tournaments than it is in modern Epee. I feel like it's more of a rhetorical device than an actual concern.
As an epee fencer, I think maintaining some semblance of historical relevancy is important in keeping Olympic fencing alive. Right of way rules and extremely light weapons leads to unrealistic techniques like ‘flicks,’ which (to me, at least) makes the sport less appealing to the next generation. Could using a ~50 gram super flexible ultralight weapons increase the speed, and perhaps even artistry and beauty of the sport? Maybe. But there will be young girls and boys re-inventing single stick fencing and dusack in their backyards, and some of them will inevitably drift away from the Olympic sport towards other disciplines (HEMA, kendo, etc) that do a better job of recreating that exhilaration of footwork and blade play that fencing delivers.
@@FistofGodfrey And if that's what people want to do, that's fine for them, you just need to pick a different name because fencing has historically meant swordsmanship. Like you said, fencing should just be fencing. Olympic electric pointy stick tag should be whatever you want to call it.
Modern fencing strikes me as being like boxing without meaningful consequence. As a spectator sport, it leaves a lot to be desired. It's like the golf of combat sports.
It is important to consider the realism of fencing because, as discussed in the video, it is more realistic than many people believe. Fencing's proud legacy, stemming from the art of swordsmanship, distinguishes it from other sports. Unlike many other sports that focus solely on scoring points, fencing offers a unique experience. While most individuals start off enamored with swords as children, many athletically inclined individuals become disillusioned along the way due to the points highlighted in the video. Theatricality and anachronism distort the true effectiveness of fencing which is an age-old practice. Those who misrepresent fencing to our core practitioners do so intentionally, seeking to gain an advantage. To make fencing relevant again, we must leverage its legacy more effectively. Sharing this video is one way to achieve this goal.
Nice one! The main thing missing from any form of sport combat and a duel or war is fear of harm or death. Stake your house on a one-hit epee fight and you'll have something more like a duel. Part of the rationale of the conventions of foil and sabre was to compel respect for the threat posed by an attack or riposte. Epeeists win by their clean hits, which has something like the same effect. Foil has wandered furthest away from the basic concepts of fencing - which is why I gave it up. In sum, a very good video. Thank you.
I'm not so sure about foil being furthest from "real" fencing. It is based on how smallsword was trained at a time when you learned to win fights and not just duels. The valid hit areas are those that are likely to incapacitate an opponent, minus the head that was too dangerous during early training without masks. Getting your blade stuck in the leg of an opponent are likely to get you killed. Epee comes (via smallsword) from duelling to first blood. Any hit is a win, even if meant you would be killed in a street fight. None of them isn't inherently more "realistic". You could argue that foil has had a longer time to sportify, as self defence with smallsword was long gone at the time real duels with Epee (de combat) was still a thing.
@@jonasbarka I agree, foil, as fought by the rules as written has its own approach to realism. Foil isn't often fought to those rules though. Re epee, A good hit to the arm would render an opponent helpless at less risk.
@@jonasbarka The avoidance of thrusts to the head in foil is a bit more complex than simple training safety (although that is likely part of it). An analysis of bodies in Paris morgues in the 18th century found that of those who looked like they had died in a fight (i.e. the wounds were to the front of the body and not the back), the vast majority had been killed by thrusts to the torso, while wounds to the limbs or head tended to be superficial. Which makes sense; a human skull is both tough and rounded, much like a helmet, and the odds of an attack simply glancing off are quite high. A thrust to the eye socket, or perhaps coming through the mouth or neck might be lethal, but these are much smaller targets than those presented by the vital areas of the torso. It's weirdly similar to pistol shooting, where you will also be taught to aim center of mass most of the time.
Very nice point of view. I am fencing coach, historical fencing and Byzantine Swordsmanship instructor you are saying to the point! Salutations from Greece.
I'm a HEMA practitioner who also practices Epee, and I can confirm that a significant issue in HEMA is the lack of athleticism, insufficient footwork, and a general deficiency in basic skills, which translates to any martial arts-like sport. I fully agree with the importance of lateral movement and sidestepping. Some people in HEMA seem to be delusional about this. Like, bro, what's the fastest possible way to reach the target? It's moving in the shortest possible straight line. You can't deny reality. However, situational sidestepping makes sense, but such footwork is more about setting occasional traps for counterattacks, counter tempos, etc., rather than trying to make it work for direct attacks. Another thing I strongly agree with is the discussion on flexible blades. Some HEMA practitioners think that sport weapons are like whips with which you can flick around like a madman. This is completely untrue. When I picked up an epee for the first time and tried to perform a flick, I realized how difficult it actually is to do it consistently with proper technique. I would love to see some of your content within the HEMA context. Cheers!
I did foil for about a year before i started doing hema, then did both simultaneously for a while and yeah the footwork in my club always gets to me. I’m constantly trying to bring it up to my friends because it’s so important just to know how to simple step without bringing your feet together. I know my own footwork isn’t perfect but I want us to all practice it more.
I'd rather not have top level olympic footwork skills. The amount of time they absolutely lose control of their legs because they are pushing too hard is bonkers. Anklebreak city, population all olympic fencers. And they call that bullrushing "physicality".
Same here. I'm the only one in my club that practises both and I am quickly gaining the upper hand on many of my much more experienced hema mates from my athleticism alone. Some of the sports fencers also try rapier every once in a while, and they don't fare badly at all. One should not underestimate how transferable the skills are between the two, and how useful they can be in the other discipline.
As they saying goes in my (HEMA) circle: a good MOF background gives you bonuses for your HEMA fencing, the only negative you get is "reputation" :D Indeed, HEMA is something like an adolescent child of MOF, that tries to find its own identity, and the basic start is a sort of negative definition, "We are not MOF". This gives some valid unique features, but also throws out the baby with the bathwater in a lot of others. Overall, however, I am fairly convinced that (just as most adolescents do, when they grow up), the two will reconcile and coexist, and HEMA would be just as legit a sport as MOF is currently.
After years of Olympic fencing, the thing that bugs the crap out of me in movies is distance and threat. Movie fights are set up so the actors are safe, which means they do most of their actions out of distance (no real chance to hit). And for drama's sake, they use big actions that take their weapons way off target, which means no real chance to hit. Distance is all wrong, weapons are not threatening target. Good drama. Bad fencing. Footwork is 100% key. It's what gets you in and out of distance. That's how you hit or avoid getting hit. Fencers with awesome footwork are super elegant and smooth. The back-and-forth (linear) nature of Olympic fencing also has to do with the equipment: imagine the reel cords getting tangled! Modern fencing weapons are also wear parts: they are designed to break but also to be minimally expensive to replace. Fancy HEMA weapons look spendy to me. For me as a middle-aged fencer, the fact that you can fence up to seventy plus and that people with lots of body types can fence well is one of the coolest aspects of the sport. From the HEMA bouts I've seen, they have referees, rules about hits, all of our safety equipment. Seems like a game as well. A different game but still a game.
Both sports are people playing with swords, as both lack the real life-or-death terror of an actual duel or battle (for the better, I should add!). One side just cannot claim that the other is pretend without looking hypocritical.
"After years of Olympic fencing, the thing that bugs the crap out of me in movies is distance and threat." that is not unique to fencing. pick any topic that you are more proficient than the average layman, you will notice films and tv shows get them wrong all the time. some of these errors are kinda "mandatory", since the movie must be understandable for everyone; some of these are made deliberately to make it watchable (no one is going to see a 15+ hours long movie about a sniper waiting for the right moment); some are made becuase of budget; and some are made out of ignorance. you'll have to learn to let it go and only cringe on the most blatant stuff, otherwise you won't be able to enjoy a lot of movies. "From the HEMA bouts I've seen, they have referees, rules about hits, all of our safety equipment." much, much more safety gear :D "Seems like a game as well. A different game but still a game." some of it definetally is. however, these are essentially metal bars weighing 1-2 kgs ( 2-4 pounds). you need to have some sort of self control, because no gear is going to protect against a full strength blow. also, there is a movement where you practice with minimal amount of gear ( = a mask and gloves). you seriously need to "pull your punches" with that, and I can assure, you DO FEEL the danger while doing that. as a middle-aged fencer myself, it is not for me; but I can see why it has an audience.
@@szepi79 Cool! I had no idea there was a "minimal gear" HEMA. I KNOW I don't have enough skill to pull my punches, so I think I'll stick to Olympic fencing. I respect both but I know my own limits!
The problem with making fencing different than what swordfight is, is that people that want to swordfight won’t do fencing anymore. I did fencing for 2 years the moment I found a HEMA clube in my area I left Olympic fencing.
7:40 Actually, the epee's weight is surprisingly close to a "epee de duel". Maybe less surprising when you consider that the epee modality was created by people who wanted it to be closer to the real deal. That's also why it doesn't use the priority rule and you can touch anywhere on the opponent.
Fantastic video dude! I always tell people fencing is a sport that trains many of the skills that tend to make good swordsmen (yet isnt a real swordfight), just like boxing trains the skills that tend to make good fighters (yet isn't a real fist fight).
Hema rapier fencer and instructor here. Great video, you did a very good job of explaining why people would unreasonably underestimate the huge qualities of a well trained modern sport fencer, and you also did a good job about speaking about the differences between sport fencing and an "hypothetical duel". Cheers!
Ive just started to get into fencing since it was also this mysterious sport that seems to appeal to the upper class. At least in Texas. I started following your channel to gradually learn more and this is the kind of info I’ve been looking for! Good stuff
Firstly, I really feel like slowmo is underutilized in fencing. While an experienced fencer will catch it all in the moment, when you have tons of people who don't know what it is, slowmo can really capture the intensity that is fencing. Also, I am not sure if this already exists but I'd like to see a format of fencing where there is a 2 second delay from when you get the hit to which you can't get hit. I feel like it would give a defender even more incentive to counter attack. I can be completely wrong, like I said, I've never fenced.
As someone who’s done both Olympic Fencing and HEMA, HEMA only looks more ‘realistic’ because most practitioners generally don’t prioritize winning. i.e. there are no dedicated competitive training facilities and no standardized competitive rules. Most of the HEMA community cares more about making their fencing look historic, rather than making it effective. Fundamentally. because counter attacking / after blows are mechanically easier than defending, any competitive fencing discipline where the swords aren’t lethal will have a lot of double hits, because they’re a great strategy. HEMA has not and cannot solve that problem, and if it developed a dedicated competitive community with a standardized set of rules, the historic aesthetic would break down entirely.
Blatantly false. Fencing in general has a lot of double hits, even with sharps. Read the coroners reports and the accounts of actual duels and most of the times both parties died. We are at least TRYING to survive our simulated duels instead of embracing the attempt of making our opponent bleed at all cost.
@@Nala15-Artist what’s your point? Of course there are lots of double hits in a ‘historic’ context, because as I said it is an inherent property of swordplay that counter attacks are easier than parries, even with sharp weapons. The problem is that without the threat of injury, in a competitive context defending with doubles is always a better strategy than trying to parry the majority of attacks, so competitors who are genuinely training to win will not defend in a ‘historically correct’ way because it’s a losing strategy. Unless the rules make counter attacks and after blows lose, but no rules can do that without making ignoring counter attacks a winning strategy, which also ruins the historic aesthetic. HEMA only looks the way it does because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules and because the vast majority of schools and practitioners train to look historical, not to win. (The fact that you’re saying that you’re treating a match like it’s a lethal duel with sharp weapons instead of prioritizing victory illustrates my point entirely. Those motivations are fundamentally at odds.)
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 First of all, the historicity is NOT a mere aesthetic for us, it is fundamental to our sport. If it ain't historical, it ain't HEMA, only EMA at most. Second, you said: "Fundamentally. because counter attacking / after blows are mechanically easier than defending, any competitive fencing discipline where the swords aren’t lethal will have a lot of double hits, because they’re a great strategy." That logically indicates that when swords ARE lethal, double hits happen less, which they don't. That alone shows that your point was invalid. That aside, after blows and doubles are NOT a great strategy IF the ruleset punishes them, which olympic fencing really doesn't. Our rules almost always DO make after blows and doubles a losing strategy. Counter attacks however, in our context, are very much CORE to the systems we learn (especially in german longsword), so obviously you have no idea what you are talking about and are judging things from their looks, probably why you rail on and on about "aesthetic". Besides all that, claiming that victory at all cost and historical accuracy are fundamentally at odds is a big claim and would need to be proven first. By you. Go on. Pick up any HEMA weapon and enter a renowned tournament. Like Socalswords, Swordsquatch, Gesellenfechten, Fechtschule Freiburg or Gdansk tournament, Swordfish, any that have made a name. See how far your "VICTORY AT ALL COST" strategy gets you.
@@Nala15-Artist 1. You illustrated my point for me. As a philosophy, “If it ain’t historical it ain’t HEMA” is an aesthetic. That’s definitionally putting form before function. 2. All 3 Olympic weapons expressly penalize reactive doubling to make it a losing strategy: Epee through tight lockout time and Sabre and Foil through right of way. 3. Reactive doubling is very much a problem in HEMA tournaments. That’s why much of the tournament scene is dominated by former Olympic Fencers turned HEMAists and why many tournament hosts have started experimenting with variations or right of way rules, because they are frustrated that their tournaments are not being won by competitors fencing in a historical fashion. 4. “Your Rules,” are non existent. There is no body or alliance that regulates HEMA tournament rules or school that governs quality referees. That’s the principle reason it has been rejected as a potential Olympic event for the past two Olympic cycles. But, if you would like to refute what I’ve written then it should be easy for you to direct me to widely adopted single set of HEMA tourney rules that you think solves the reactive doubling problem. (No such rule set exists because the HEMA community is stumbling into the very same systemic challenges that established sports like foil, kendo, and wushu have been refining for decades, but it’s very cool to follow a proto-sport in the making, participating in a community that’s taking its first early steps towards turning an undisciplined hobby into a truly competitive sport.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 1. Dude, it's historical European martial arts. Take the history part out of it, and the whole exercise becomes European martial arts at best. We are interested in history, not modernity. That's not an aesthetic, it's core to our art. And if you wanna talk form before function, look at olympic fencing first. 2. And yet, more than half of the supposedly top level bouts this video alone shows are doubles. Olympic fencing is not penalizing doubles, it is simply not awarding points for doubles, that is a huge difference. And experimenting is fine, though there are a ton of clubs going down the path of penalizing doubles in a different way instead of just "you may ignore that strike that totally would have killed you if this was a real duel", which is what right of way basically has become. 3. You got any proof for that? Well hey, who knew. Blomquist was a competitive ice-skater before he did HEMA. I think this has less to do with olympic fencing's validity and more with the character of people who are in it to win competitions and nothing else AND have the time and money to do so, and likely already have been developed athletes before they even hit puberty AND are probably not against using steroids. 4. If our rules are so non-existent, why don't you join a HEMA tournament and ignore all the rules? See what happens. I don't have to refute anything because you are making claims with no proof AND are trying to set the goalposts (probably just so you can move them). You yet have to prove how olympic fencing is solving the doubling problem (evidence? Again, look at the video above, and no, not counting hits because one fencer struck 0.25 secs before the other hit him back is NOT solving the problem, it's IGNORING it). And who are you to say that HEMA has to become a competitive sport with an international ruling body and millions of dollars behind it? Maybe we HEMA practitioners don't want to become a toxic, abusive cesspit of bribes, corruption, brand deals, politics and steroids?
Great video. I trained hema getting close to 20 years and sport fencing for the past 7, weekly privates and club fencing under a traditional coach. Totally changed my approach and made me a better competitor and coach.
I fenced to a fairly high level at university and really enjoyed ‘educating’ live role players(LARPers), who often had contempt for my sport - they were so slow and clumsy!
Something I've learned in my (admittedly short) time on HEMA, is that the footwork for lunges is very different to the one Found in fencing. For HEMA it is very important to keep both feet planted on the ground during the lunge, since the potential counter attack comes in with a lot of force (especially in Longsword, or when grappling/disarming is involved). If you don't have your feet planted properly, you risk injury to your ankles. In fencing, the lunge maximises the distance covered, thus the feet don't stay planted. Both is perfectly valid in their own sport, but could be problematic if used in the other scenario.
No weapons “sparring” is realistic, it could be fencing, hema, kendo… they’re way different from an actual fight to the death with real blades, nevertheless they’re cool sports and a lot of fun.
They're "realistic" until the moment one fighter's weapon connects with the other fighter's body, then the simulation breaks down. This is why most weapon-based martial arts have rules that stop at the hit. A regrettable but necessary abstraction.
One of the things I've noticed taking my fencing skillset outside of the fencing world and into HEMA and Bellegarth and other systems, is that these systems that try to be "realistic" or "historically accurate" have to tendency to hamstring themselves. They'll avoid practicing footwork too extensively because it doesn't appear in their books that often, or they wont practice wild flunges or crazy moves because they're "too sporty" or "not historical." As true as that might be, that physicality and that footwork are so incredibly valuable that in my experience olympic fencers have a lot easier of a time adapting to HEMA or other sword-fighting systems than the other way around.
There's kind of a division in HEMA with some clubs being just kind of hobby groups chilling and some being straight up fencing schools aiming to produce competitive swordsmen. Clubs that train people with competitive approach put a lot of emphasis on footwork and will quickly adopt any move that proves it's worth in actual fight. Also, one of the reasons that olympic fencers have better time adapting to HEMA than other way around is because they start younger, people mostly discover HEMA as adults, some (like me) just begin at the age most professional sports would consider retirement age. Meanwhile olympic fencers can start training at 14, if not earlier.
The thing is at its beginning and at its core, HEMA wasn't meant to be a sport; it was meant to be applied historical research on western martial arts. Competitions help, but weren't the core, and personally I don't really think they should be.
@@alessandronavone6731 at it's beginning and it's core HEMA was a desire to have meaninful sword fighting activity based on something real. It simply wouldn't have existed without the joy of giving someone the taste of historically accurate yet non-lethal blade. As it grew in popularity and attracted people - eventually it had enough of both hardcore history nerds who can't hold a sword firmly and competitive people who haven't seen a fechtbuch with their two eyes for divide and clashes between historical and competitive aspects to appear.
@@konstantin3374 I think Matt Easton made a video on this subject one or two years ago. I guess you know about him but if not - he's one of the OG founding fathers, literally created the term and original methods. My impression derives from what I remember from that video of his. Might remember wrong; in any case, if you'd like to check it out, I'd recommend it, it was one of his most interesting.
@@alessandronavone6731 as I recall he was into swords, armor and movies featuring sword fights during his childhood, became aware of reenactment and was doing archery for a while. He isn't exactly "founding father", but I'd say he's first generation of practical HEMA with all the competitive scene being formed under his and other 00s clubs influence.
epee is less bendy. Though I had no issue with foil bendiness as flicking is only required and mainly used on a very high level, amateurs do not flick and even I when faced a high level fencer he/she destroyed me without any flicks
Funnily enough, if you ever have the chance to fence with full-length (like 21') pikes, they behave almost exactly like foils - bendyness and all. You know, except for the part where you have to use them two-handed, can hit someone from across a full tennis court, and will blow your back out if you put a foot wrong. It's an extremely silly weapon, but pulling off a 4-6 disengage with a pike is hilarious.
Fencing is the interchange of thrusts, parries and ripostes that take place before a hit is made. They still call it fencing in the sports world but fencing has been replaced with speed and athletics, and virtually nothing happens between launching an attack and making a hit. No sword had a pistol grip. No sword had a large offset guard. No sabre had a thin whippy blade. Nobody won a duel by making a hit a fraction of a second before they were killed. If you're interested in fencing, look into smallsword fencing. Become a fencer instead of a hitter.
As someone who spends way too much time with both fencing (modern and historical): lots to say. The modern sport is a game and like many others, it’s important to them. It doesn’t align with the popular notion of fencing being the art of sword play which imo leads to most of this. Beyond this when it comes to martial LARP, epee was the original to do this. ROW is a useful pedagogical tool but since the 1800s this conversation on real sword fights has been happening. Epee is the 18th century response. Past that, as far as psychology goes nothing really simulates a duel. Aldo Nadi has great writings about this and despite being an Olympic champion at the time we see his form go out the window in the video and that he felt dueling was different. He also won and managed not to kill his opponent (his goal). Kind of a fun little historical anecdote.
Thank you for making this, I really appreciate how articulately you put your points, and only partially because because they're arguments I've been making with HEMA..... I really do think that modern fencers oversell how much their fencing is purely a sport removed from violence of any kind, though I also understand why you would since it means you don't have to deal with the worst people on the internet. But if you compare sword fighting to unarmed fighting, fencing has a lot in common with martial arts like boxing of muay thai, which are also the martial arts that actually train someone to fight well, and very little in common with the marital arts that are useless for fighting. I would point out that the sorts of things sword nerds claim about modern fencing are also things that the same people complain about within HEMA as well, and the arguments are even weaker there.
i´ve said it already in another one of your videos:If its past midnight and i find myself at a doggy tabern in Renaissance Spain i´d always pick Szilagyi as my drinking partner over any Hema swordsman - no disrespect to them. If we are talking about a knife fight in a dark street I pick Foconi as a buddy over any so called knife master in the interwebs. 😅
Really good video - everyone should want to try fencing after watching this. Fencing is not like a duel, but it's not trying to be, it's a sport. But the fundamentals you've covered, Mental, Physical, Technical and Tactical would translate very well if they dropped fencers into a duel.
It's hard to explain but I've been training broadsword and straight sword for a while and if you swung them like you see in the movies you would quickly lose an appendage as you leave yourself extremely exposed. Fencing is great to watch. Nice video.
Thank you kindly for the video, it is excellent as always. As regards the sportification of fencing - without any value judgements whatsoever about if this is "good" or "bad," fencing has as you correctly point out always to some degree been a sport, no matter how far back we take it. However, there comes a key point of divergence relatively recently when people start taking the rules not as intended, but purely as written - which is to say, the unspoken cultural or aesthetic requirements are tossed and people fence to win by the rulebook. This gives us our modern metas. And it's not as if historical fencing is immune to these, we absolutely fence to our rulesets. At the end of the day, I think "realistic" is not super relevant as a metric. We're doing a sport - even those historical fencers who clutch their pearls about how they're doing a true martial art tm have layers and layers of abstraction from some preconceived "real thing." And currently, historical fencing has a lot more to learn from modern (whether that be in athleticism, sports psychology or approaches to the sport) than vice versa.
Historical Fencing instructor here. Interestingly enough I actually started with Olympic or modern fencing myself. I agree with you on many points but thought I'd lend my perspective, having done both. First is the importance of being physically competent. This one is paramount for high level competition in just about any discipline. It's an advantage you can use regardless of what discipline or game you're playing. Why wouldn't one do it? One of the reasons I think we tend to see much more physical competency in Olympic fencing over historical I believe is the pedigree. Olympic fencers these days often started when they were very young and have done it for years, or go into it with the express idea of doing this for competition where they intend to go to tournaments and compete. HEMA however is really quite a new thing still with most members/students etc... have only discovered it as an adult. It's quite rare to even have classes for students that are not already adults. Unless those people have done Olympic fencing when they were young or come from some other very physically demanding discipline, they're already behind on physical competency. It's also worth noting that the quality of instruction in HEMA groups varies wildly. Being such a new thing, many instructors can be only a few years ahead of their students and with little competition experience. Of course others clubs have instructors that have 20-30 years of experience and really know what they're doing. But it does lead to anecdotes where a 2-3 year modern fencer goes to a local HEMA school and cleans house. I think the biggest thing for cross over is the difference in equipment. The MUCH heavier weapons that are used in HEMA tend to slow the game down significantly and punch up the consequences of being struck. Not that it's slow, but compared to the ridiculously light blades on Olympic foils, epee's and sabers, the real thing completely changes how you have to use it, what you can do with it and more importantly what you can't do with it. I've fought a fair few modern fencers in HEMA and despite them being in excellent form and very fast, their downfall was always either not being able to do most of their favorite techniques with a weapon that is so much heavier, or simply not having any idea of what the real weapons are capable of and how they can be used. In that I include things like Quillons, binds and off-hand techniques such as blade grabs and traps which always throw them off. That said a modern fencer with the training and athleticism, that then learns the weapons and techniques of real historical systems will be a force to be reckoned with. I think as HEMA matures we will start to see many more HEMA fencers that are starting younger, training harder, competing more and learning from more seasoned instructors/coaches, we will see that physical competency gap between modern and historical fencing shrink a great deal.
Great video! Don't forget who you are or where you come from. Fencing only exists as an olympic sport because there was a resurgence of dueling and training for it at the end of the 19th century, which coincides with the beginning of the modern olympic games. Fencing is the most popular European form of a living sword art continually practiced and evolving over centuries. The HEMA community should recognize this and understand that despite all the distance that exists between what is practiced nowadays within the sport and real combat, it is still the OG.
I once fought in a hema tournament where I cracked a rib in my first match if the day. I went on to fight three more before the pain was to much and I couldn't hold my sword up anymore.
I know noting about fencing. I've never played. I've barely watched any rounds, but this was really captivating to watch. 10/10, thank you Slicer Sabre.
As a HEMA instructor with a background in foil and epee, my absolute favorite students are often people with modern fencing backgrounds because they already know the basics at an extremely high level. All a decent epeeist needs, for example, is a few weeks or months of instruction in the specifics of longsword before I'd be comfortable sending them to a tournament against people who have been doing longsword for years.
The way I kinda think about is that airsoft is to real military stuff like olympic fencing is to real melee fights. Both are one hit systems that ignore multiple hits, and both have weaker structure between combatants (ie: modern swords are thinner and more flexible and airsoft guns have less range and the bbs go off target more).
from my understanding of circular vs. linear footwork: it’s not as easy to distinguish the two as you’d think. all footwork will be linear at the start of a fight, since circular footwork only works if you’re voiding or otherwise creating distance for a parry. that said there’s a _lot_ of great circular footwork in rapier plays and it’s fun to land them, makes me feel like a foppish genlteman every time.
I think another important aspect is the right of way & afterblow rule differences between the sport fencing(s) & HEMA. I'd love to see a discussion on the more sport design end.
Perhaps there should be a form where fencers: jump on table tops, balance over the backs of chairs, swing from chandeliers, slide down banisters, glide down tapestry…all that sort of thing. The winner will be the one who chooses to utilises the most of these props 😁
I absolutely agree with many of the points in this video. But i would like to add something. I am one of the people that started in Sport Fencing and then moved into historical fencing. They are almost entirely different disciplines. One of the notes you made about sport fencers finding success in historical fencing is accurate, but your reasoning is a little off-target. Historical fencers absolutely focus a great deal on footwork and measure. I don't think that's why they find success.
There's HEMA and there's HEMA. Amount of attention people pay to footwork and training in general differs greatly between clubs. If for whatever reason there will be a boom in HEMA popularity it will inevitably split into competitive sport clubs with blades rusting from all the sweat in the air and historical hobby circles more interested in old books than climbing the pedestal.
As someone whos started dabbling in hema recently, as well as a bloke who just loves his epee and foil (with my own channel I had completely forgotten to post to), this entire idea of the "lack of realism" has always struck me as pontificating about issues that are either unsolvable, or only exist at first glance. It used to frustrate me when it was handwaved as "modern fencing is just sport", bc while its a justification in itself, its also the case that, simply put, fencing is fencing.
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. The fundamental truth is that there is no perfect solution to the counter attack / after-blow problem. It’s an inherent property of fencing that going for a double hit is mechanically easier than actually defending against an attack. And no ruleset perfectly solves that problem. All of them make fencing unrealistic. HEMA only maintains its ‘historic aesthetic’ because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules and because most of its practitioners care more about meeting that aesthetic than actually trying to win.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112there is a ruleset that does account for it. If you get hit with an afterblow, it goes as a loss on both of your score cards. Hit clean or you lose anyway.
Right of Way is actually the greatest fault of modern fencing, it is not that you need to first defend against attack, it is that your opponent can launch a suicidal attack and still score, or invalidate you fair response that would have ended with both fencers hurt or dead. This is something we are actively fighting against in HEMA, as when right of way is used in tournaments, the fencing is terrible, and a lot of injuries happen. It would be easier to dismiss all other aspects of Modern Fencing as sportification, but Right of Way fundamentally changes the nature and strategy of the fight for the worse.
I am a HEMA instructor of 5 years (practicing for much longer) and I have long been interested in the similarities and differences of Olympic fencing and HEMA. (Note: I have done 2 years of Olympic fencing as well, and practice with saber and rapier, but largely focus on Longsword.) I thought I might give you my thoughts (I know they weren’t asked for). First, I entirely agree that HEMA practitioners should ABSOLUTELY do more footwork and distance drills. Second, I respectfully disagree about the importance of offline movement. Adding the 3rd dimension dramatically changes the dynamic of a fight, and just as 1/2 of an inch in distance is all that matters in getting the hit or defending against one, just 2-3 degrees can do the same.
Thirdly, I think making a distinction between the three swords is important. I think Epee, largely an analog for the smallsword, is the most realistic. You need to hit with the point, enough to press the button, with no RoW to worry about. The smallsword had no blade so this is fairly solid. Foil, supposedly a similar analog, is worse as it is simply an electric circuit that just requires a touch with any part of that electrified tip on the opponent’s top 3rd. It is far too flexible and light. Saber is the worst offender in my opinion. As the name implies, it is trying to be a Saber, but is FAR too light, and as you mentioned, edge alignment is not required. But on top of that, sufficiency is not taken into account either. I.e. the force necessity actually cut, which is very important. In even intermediate fencing, people will flick the sword so that the momentum will bend the blade to ever so slightly touch their opponent and get the point. All of this is compounded by the downsides of RoW.
I mostly agree with what you are saying. Related to HEMA though, one counter POV and two general "complaints" about MOF (one of which extends to HEMA as well): WRT the side step / rotation, I think you are vastly underestimating the practicality of side stepping and rotating, as well as overestimating how easy it is to defend (simply by rotating). Certainly there are some HEMA forms that side stepping is a but cumbersome and not as useful, but there are others that make it movement 101... mission critical skills. The only thing that needs to be on the line is your sword. The body need not be. A big part of getting in, striking, and getting out clean in an efficient and life safe manor is the art of deception. And side stepping / rotating is a great tool in that toolbox. If done well, it also plays against the opponent's body mechanics. Suddenly changing the line of combat confuses the opponent. Shifting the line of combat to their weak or blind sides makes it harder for them to retaliate. The dragging of the rear foot insole down to the ankle always give me the shivers. Seeing people nearly lay their inside calf down on the mat must be in the nightmares of every sports therapist. How many ankle and knee injuries to MOF players get? Am I over-reacting? I see it occasionally in HEMA people too.. and I feel like its a think that needs to be whipped out of them. Speaking of things needing to be whipped out.. MOF fencers tearing off their masks IMMEDIATELY after scoring a point. While the opponent is still in motion even. Yellow cards! PLEASE. So focused on their own point, they dont see they are still in potential danger. If MOF had quillions.... there would be more missing eyes. Removing equipment is a group 1 offense (yellow then red card). Touching the piste should = mask on.. no exceptions.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I must admit, I always thought that HEMA was superior for its approach to historicality and realism. But you made me think differently about olympic fencing and realize how athletic and technical it is. I'll still continue to prefer HEMA and I simply love the longsword, but I will now definitely appreciate olympic fencing more.
if you had an odd scenario and had to fight a random person to the death via sword or a trained fencer via sword only a fool wouldn't go with the random person option.
Fencing needs to become more organic and personal. Small clubs and more promotion. It needs to become more like skateboarding. It’s to tide to Olympics and we don’t see it enough. It needs a ufc or boxing style approach
4:32 This is true because people compare advanced sport fencers vs beginner HEMA practitioners. If you pit Richard Marsden with a sharp polish saber against a olympic gold medalist in saber fencing with a sharp duelling saber, Richard would win 8/10 due to the fact that he is trained to keep himself safe. He trains to hit without being hit, instead of simply advancing at his oponent in order to get a right of way. But you are indeed correct that there are many clubs who don't do foot work and distancing enough. Not to mention that a duelling saber, though it may be quick, is not designed to kill an oponent. If you where to arm the olympic style fencer with an actual infantry saber, he would tire easily and quickly and would be disarmed or killed with ease. 6:30 this really is only true for thrusting. Even in late saber sources, the lunge is what gives effect to the cut, especially if we are going for realism here and considering that there's clothing to get through.
I have an interesting idea for a video that is fencing related which may peek your intrested. The FIE actually made a mobile game, that is basically a "Fencing Simultor" it's called FIE Swordplay. And it's still gets regular updates by the FIE and patches too, yhe gameplay is really engaging and is a bit repetitive after a bit but still fun. But there are optional cosmetics and regular P2P mobile games. But it does include all the different types of matches you can, do in competitive fencing and all the different Sword types too. And has an online comp mode and (unlike the Olympics and the rest of competitive fencing) the Russians dominate it! But despite all that its very fun and can become addictive after a while.
Absolutely, from a HEMA background, having the sport fencing background is absolutely important because as you said, many in our field don't work on footwork and distance that much. Many with a sport fencing background absolutely smear in hema especially: smallsword/rapier & dagger *your clip showed the legendary Robert Childs*, and Sword and Buckler. People going from HEMA will try to get to binds/grapples, but a sport fencer will strike you much faster because beats/disengages and because blade moves faster than body. I saw another vid put it that it makes more sense to come from the sport portion first and then add the extra HEMA stuff after to augment.
I have huge respect for Rob Childs! I come from 20+ years Filipino training in blade work. I have also studied Japanese swordsmanship, and done a little HEMA. While Olympic fencing has some translatability to rapier and small sword, it doesn’t “look” like blade arts from the rest of the world… in my estimation the sport ruleset probably incentivizes as many bad habits as it promotes good ones. There is a reason officers abandoned small swords and spadroon as time went on in favor of sabers. Sabers, langmessers, falchion, arming swords, side swords, highland basket swords, Roman gladius/spatha, Viking swords, Indian talwar, katana, etc… ALL are similar takes on a near optimal design. Length and other things do change from sword to sword, but these things are HEAVY in the hand, and heavy in the bind. To handle a sword, you need years to build the muscle and feel for it….. just like a boxer learns to punch and a taekwondo person learns to kick. It goes all up and down the kinetic chain, so some styles need passing steps to manage the weight and so on. TLDR; it’s just so arrogant to say Olympic fencing translates to handling a sword.
in HEMA the importance of distance is more based on the type of weapon, but in general distance is king. but some weapons dont care as much about distance becaouse other factors and weapon types
I don't know, I've held a real sword and a fencing saber. There's a massive difference in weight and that lets you get away with things but you wouldn't be able to do with a real sword. Edit: Also, and probably more importantly, the usefulness of lateral movement should not be underestimated. When avoiding a strike, moving diagonally messes with the geometry of your opponent's attack, effectively increasing the distance between you and them faster than if you retreated in a linear path. It can buy you that extra inch you might need to escape.
Lateral movement is also quite useful when combined with a well-placed and aggressive parry - then, not only do you have the flank but their blade is out of line.
I would say that lots of the moment to moment bouts aren't exactly "historical" but the skills trained by modern olympic fencers are absolutely the kind of skills that are necessary for successful historical fencing. I find the best historical fencers cross-train with olympic fencing techniques. We have records of fencing schools in london going back to the 12th century. There is so much the old fechtbuchs don't tell us that would have been taught. Relying solely on the manuals is not historical. Footwork beyond the absolute basics is rarely gone over and I myself have seen great improvement incorporating modern footwork training into my hema regime. Regarding the extra axis of movement hema allows. After doing hema for over two years I find I rarely end up moving laterally except when very close. But I do notice brand new hema fencers doing it a lot more. Walking around me in a circle.
No swordsman in History ever went around trying to "impale" themselves. That's just idiotic hyperbole, but they would absolutely attack "as if their life depended on it", because it did. Under those conditions, you can't just "bide your time", "look to the judges", "hope to win on points", you have to be decisive and physically impose your will (to live) on your opponent. It's meant to be brutal.
Epee is probably the most divorced from historical fencing, but the fundamentals are mostly the same. The biggest difference I find having fenced with people who started with Olympic fencing is that the angles change a fair bit when you can move more side to side. I also find the Olympic scoring system really hurts the transition as well. I can't remember what it's called, but how Olympic fencing deals with doubles. It leads to Olympic fencers attacking in suicidal fashion, because they would score the point, whereas in other HEMA rule sets it would be a double, and with sharps they would still die as well. So having watched some more, I want to point out some misconceptions. First, while you are correct that a small pivot can address the change in angle, you dismiss that as if forcing a pivot isn't a big deal. It very much is, as you are forcing the opponent into your tempo with that step. Second, taking an angle doesn't need to be an all at once thing- it can be slow and misleading, helping to gain measure in a difficult to perceive way.Y You are straight wrong about back being the best direction to retreat to in HEMA. The first reason is that listed above. The second is that HEMA isn't always done in a gym or other clear flat area. Some arenas don't have nearly the distance, and others have obstacles you can trip on. An additional reason is that forcing a turn one direction or another can confuse an opponents footwork, like a fakeout in basketball, or simply to gain an outside or inside angle as the opponent pursues. You mention it later in the video, so now I remember it's called right of way :P Frankly speaking, it's terrible from a historical perspective, and the biggest weakness Olympic fencers have when transitioning to HEMA. It *kind of* works from a sporting perspective, but I don't like it personally.
Yes, HEMAists actually ignore the importance of footwork. Yes, indeed "right of way" has more ambiguities than meaning. Yes, MOF indeed never tried to replicate the sword duels of yesteryear. And to add my opinion, I believe that we should work to create a community of both Olympic and historical fencers.
Imagine they made the boxing ring a narrow rectangle, so tight that you can only move forwards or backwards, when the first boxer to make contact (importance on making contact, it doesnt have to be a proper punch connecting in a valid area, any touch will do) the referee steps in and stops the match, awarding one point to the boxer who tapped the other boxer first. Both fighters are then reset and the same game repeats again. Sounds absurd right, like someone took boxing and made it a basic first-to-touch wins game Fencing is just that.
100%. They made it too safe & now everyone just spams attacks. In boxing, the spamming is nicely counterbalanced by getting punched in the face if you disregard defence
Sabre an epee are the training simulators for first blood duelling weapons. The button weight on the epee is calibrated to be the force required to puncture the skin. These fencing systems are exactly what the should be. Foil is a bit different. Foil is the training system and simulator for the small sword, thus not first blood. The conditions for skills development and a duel are different, it helps for training not to be a brawl. Please understand that not every fencing system is interested in "experimental archeology", and use their sparring systems differently from the HEMA community.
Imagine the boxers had swords and were simulating a duel to first blood, and suddenly it makes way more sense. You don't need a very strong hit to maim someone with a sword, let alone draw a bit of blood.
Something that people don't appreciate is that any injury may very well end your career. Even the best fighter will lose an interaction eventually, and if that results in an injury because you're using real weapons you at best need to take time off to recover, and at worst become disable or die. If you're familiar with the graph of a geometric distribution, you know that if you keep taking a gamble repeatedly the probability that you will lose at least once approaches 100% *very* quickly. If risking injury is the only way you can practice, you won't get very far. The fact that olympic fencing swords are "anti-weapons" means there's no limit to how much an olympic fencer can practice against other fencers.
I think that a lot of comparisons can be made with Olympic taekwondo, you see in the sequences lots of attacks that you'll never in a match, attacks to the eyes, sweeps, kicks in the lower parts and to the knees.
Nice video. MOF probably has the most advanced pedagogy of any sport, with a long history of perfecting that transfer of knowledge. A great sport fencer can easily become a great HEMA fencer, I don't think there's any doubt about it, as it's been done lots. The other way around, not so much, due to the fact that most people start HEMA much later in life, and often without much of an athletic background. TBF, any great athlete can go into HEMA do very well, even if they're not combat sports athletes. I think hockey players would do very well. If you can handle a stick while on ice with knives on your feet while people are trying to body check you, handling a longsword with good footing should be fairly simple in contrast. Absolutely most HEMA clubs do not spend enough time on footwork or conditioning. I do have one counterpoint: While the hand-foot dissociation may be beneficial for some disciplines, for older styles it might be detrimental and need to be de-trained a bit. With weapons like longsword, the connection between the fencer's core and the weapon is very important and can't be stressed enough. And sport fencers are not typically used to the grappling part of swordfighting, and would need to be brought up to speed. Will all that TLDR I just wrote, remember that HEMA is more than just swords. There's grappling, dagger, staff, spear, pugilism, poleaxe, and so on.
having sport fenced for 20+ years and now doing HEMA the footwork from all those days made me pretty good.. but lateral movements was hard to get used to since in sport fencing is so linear while in say Italian or Spanish rapier they move all over the place. Distance judgement as huge as well but maybe the most important part was simple point control. Coming from foil all those years you can hit a dime on a string with so much practice. I stepped into HEMA from Sport Fencing and like you say 'Right of Way' kind of screwed me before I got over it. In HEMA I would get a lot of double kills .. where in sport fencing I would have to the point It would count as both killed.. since.. yes it actually is. If I attack and get a touch first but just what .. a few milliseconds before you also hit me.. we're both wounded. I think the HEMA thing makes you more defensive but I can say that I had so many years of fun Sport fencing and if I had any opportunity i'd still do it.. but the HEMA/SCA fencing is just as much fun but a bit different and probably more realistic . It's all good love sword fighting !
These days I do kendo, I used to train sabre and foil. These things are obviously not combat simulations, but they are training methods handed down by actual historical fencing masters. The historical aesthetic fencing community could benefit from understanding situations where winning is the only thing that matters. I am also so very sick of hearing about "the battlefield", no one stopped to fence on battlefields.
I mean not everything sword related is designed around bar brawls like people thing. Olympic fencing is "realistic" cause it works within the conditions established to it. Period
No need to defend olympic fencing. After all, neither HEMA nor OF are realistic: we do not fight with swords anymore. They are a historical relic, and you can chose to pick any rules that make you happy or your sport more popular. Discussions of realism, however, are absolutely crucial for hand to hand combat and combat with firearms (and perhaps with knives).
perhaps its just really fast paced and hard to view what's always going on when watching on tv. maybe adding some color to the foil so it sticks out more against the background would help a bit. I know they did that for hockey back in the day on tv. they added a bright spot around the puck so your eyes could track it with the grainy-ness of old tvs. Tennis made the balls bright yellow against a brown clay, blue grass or green grass so its better for people viewing the sport. Its really easy to just lose track of that foil as it blurs around the screen.
Hema is shaped by rules systems more than people would like to think, despite more accurate weapons and techniques being used. Funny enough, in sport fencing I only ever got good tournament results by abusing people's expectations around right of way, while hema is desperately trying to implement rules to prevent doubles that are totally not right of way but almost. Lower level foil fencers tend to assume that defender can only counter attack after a successful parry so they just chase forward and try to avoid their blade getting slapped. Which lead to me stabbing them straight up from retreat the moment they put their point out of line. Trainers laughing, opponents stunned and confused as they get defeated by a cheeky but inferior fencer. Meanwhile low level hema people tend to go for attack too hard and constantly stand just outside of reach and do blade bind tricks instead of just making better footwork, which ends with tons of doubles. As suddenly shortened distance inevitably leads to too many openings. The moment you give people sharp blades, their style does not even remotely resemble tournament play since every movement suddenly becomes much more cautious and testing the waters before committing. Rules ate everything but can highlight aspects you cant get otherwise
I broadly agree with most of what you say. However, having done both olympic fencing and HEMA, I cannot stress how much the weapon plays in. I think epee and foil are highly applicable to smallsword and similar weapons, and I would NOT want to face an olympic level foil fencer in a small sword duel. They could pick one up and use it no problem. A sabre fencer, however, would definitely need a long transition time to learn to use a military sabre, because those things are quite heavy and handle very differently. Olympic techniques would lead to broken wrists. I do disagree with the side-stepping. Again, it’s highly weapon dependent. With a smallsword/epèe/etc, sidestepping is indeed not that useful compared to back stepping. With a cut-and-thrust weapon, however, sidestepping is massively useful, since it makes parries far safer, allows different angles of attack, and can be very disorienting on an opponent. (Seriously, having an opponent circle you forces you to constantly move and prepare for something, without leaving openings or giving space. It’s so stressful)
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I know all my sword play from years of sparring and the flexibility of the swords and the point based on electric conductive system it is not at all similar to classic fencing and you can see this because the Spanish fencing tradition still practices with hard blades.
ua-cam.com/video/AlZfB6g4-Yg/v-deo.htmlsi=lh4LNeJaej2UfGjR
Looks like there is an awful lot of parrying and grabbing the sword hand. Whops a lot more like the movies than the sports fencing. Also you can clearly see just how much lateral movement truly matters in terms of getting the proper angle to be at a range where you can hit but they can’t hit you. The Spanish fencing movie you included is actually explaining the importance of lateral attacks in Spanish fencing.
Oh in case you want to see the pre electric linear tradition. ua-cam.com/video/2NXYvhO08CI/v-deo.htmlsi=OqrSy72Dj-7_O8WO
Again an incredible amount of parrying and back and forth.
The quick snappy single shot snaps and thrusts are completely based on the elasticity and electronic registration.
If how realistic it is doesn’t matter than the video doesn’t actually matter?? Like you made the video just to say you don’t actually care if there are logical counter arguments to anything because you love it.
Than just love it than and make a video about how much you love it. I would have happily watched that and would have honestly enjoyed a lot more than feeling compelled to debunk your claims. If you don’t want an argument it is completely valid to just say I love this thing it’s rad I don’t care what anybody says it’s epic! And your honesty and heart would be way more respected than starting an argument and then pretending like the argument shouldn’t matter, it’s a dishonest and manipulative way of getting to a very human honest point. It’s just like someone saying they love karate because it’s awesome or Aikido or snowboarding. It’s the same like if you were like is snowboarding a good way to get around town and you made a much of one sided arguments and then concluded Who cares snowboardings awesome. Like why did you ask me to listen to your arguments if you don’t actually care about your arguments. You do understand that is literally wasting someone’s time. Imagine if your spouse argued about how you didn’t do enough for her or him and than after fourty minutes of you feeling like she’s making one sided arguments against you she was like you know what it doesn’t matter because I love you. Yeah… realistically you wouldn’t be like ok no problem I don’t mind you just made me think about a bunch of aggravation and argument. Just anytime you want to make up a random thing to argue about spend time making up reasons why I am wrong about something and just drop it’s totally cool to just jerk you around right. I think you know this was click bait and you could have just come out and said you think fencing cool regardless of what anybody says and this is why. Instead of pretending til the literal last moment.
So, I trained KoRyu with my best friends in college and we literally sparred with bamboo sticks with zero armor except helmet and gloves. And I can tell you, nobody rushes when real severe pain is a distinct possibility. When a piece of bamboo shatters across your stomach or neck or chest, you don’t even rush in again. That is the main reason even most hema is wrong, because the fear of bodily harm completely and utterly changes your behaviors and makes you exceedingly focused on either dominating an angle or entangling or playing just out of range. It was some of the most fun I ever had because it was so close to the real thing because you were afraid of the sword. Getting stabbed sucked, getting struck sucked and you just didn’t leap at people if it wasn’t your first time. A lot of kids who started at our club would leap forward and get smashed over the head literally shattering the bamboo and if they came back they actually started studying how to properly play angles and range and to slip entanglements. It was some manly stuff and incredibly fun and we did on many occasions get slight slashes over the hand or arms that in no way were counted. The rule was if the person fighting you wasn’t stopped by the pain of the attack unless it was a pull cut across the abdomen or neck etc. it wasn’t significant enough to stop the action. It didn’t happen all that much because most of the time we were hitting really really hard and fast. And that is how I have confidence in my ability to sword fight. I did fight a Chinese fencer who did fight one handed in a rapier type stance and he beat the crude out of me, it was an embarrassing moment at the time because I felt I was the best in the club and the guy just stopped by. But he played by our rules and with our equipment so when I say he beat me I mean it. So I am under no illusion the Japanese sword is superior it’s just what I know. A boss of mine who was an X mma fighter was trying to criticize me and he said, what’s the point you don’t carry a sword around and I said, yes but if you had a bat and I had a bat I know I would win. And that is not something Olympic style fencers can say because the force and weight difference and sheer violence doesn’t translate and that is the main reason why I don’t think you can say that modern fencing is realistic, because I don’t think an Olympic fencer could pick up a metal pole and have confidence where a hema practitioner absolutely would.
That’s my opinion and I think it matters because the martial side of sword fighting if lost is a real lost and I think it absolutely is lost. And the main example for that is the fearless way they charge at eachother, traditional fencers wouldn’t do this because it would still be a serious danger even with padding. The lack of pain and danger changes your subconscious fear of the others weapon. That’s why I think it matters because the martial side is more than sport. Just as boxers often say that they are truly accepting they could die and that affects the spirit of the contestants I think the lack of danger has the opposite effect and invites a lack of seriousness that most sports have. Nobody is throwing in the towel in a basketball match because it’s too much punishment. Martial Arts involve a level of combat and combat is violence. I don’t believe Olympic fencing can be called violent, like Olympic Wrestling or Judo or Boxing can be called violent and that is why it is not realistic. That and the modern fencing I linked to earlier.
@@dorjedriftwood2731 I think you bring some valid points. As you said a lot of people get lost here in this HEMA vs MOF arguments, that are not part of the topic at all. Or how cool MOF is, which is also not part of the argument. And yes i believe that it is the presenter problem. The fact that he made this emotional non-informative video that is more about some inner conflict than sources and things to discuss is reason why it no-one is really talking about the problems.
But i also do not like minimal gear fencing. I started with it mask and gloves only with steel rapiers.... and while it can give you something and people for some reason are inclining to it in HEMA nowadays to include it, i do not think it is really that beneficial. HEMA is violent enough (depends on region, but in Centreal and east Europe it sure is - and France is nice) in competitions, you also need play and easy atmosphere to learn and grow as it is scientifically proven that stress lowers learning. This sort of training stops growth and also introduces wierd habits in some people... it is not worth it in my opinion.
Also some of the historical fencers did just that once the weapon allowed it. ua-cam.com/video/bfcpyMdEwzM/v-deo.html
Having trained primarily Sabre for three years, starting historical fencing was much easier then I expected. Training with more experienced historical fencers I was able to keep the score very close. The principles are the same for both sports, and most of the blade-work translates well
former olympic fencer and current HEMAist here: I agree with most of things you said. 2 exceptions:
- stepping backwards is not ALWAYS the safest way. in the ruleset of olympic fencing, sure. but if you can hurt the opponent in other ways (kicking, grappling, punching, etc), sidestepping is often better. (also, if the opponent has that option too, he can just chase you until he gets close enough to do so.)
- right of way. I don't like that. while what you said is true, and it prevents defending people from suicidal actions, it rewards the attacker for suicidal actions. its counterpart is the afterblow system, where attacker is punished for being suicidal and the defender is rewarded for it. that system is not perfect either, but I like that idea better.
but the defender is the one explicitly rejecting defending themselves from the threat established first so they can hit the other person, that makes no sense
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 there are a number of scenarios where it DOES make sense.
1. the difference in skill is so great, that the "defender" doesn't even realize he is getting attacked, and from his point of view, he merely attacks, resulting in a double hit.
2. the defender did try to defend, but he was unsuccessful, but the attacker did not inflict a serious wound, and the attack was reckless enough that it allowed an afterblow from the lightly injured defender
3. the goal of the "defender" is not to survive, but to kill the attacker, AND he is aware that his skills are inferior, so he deliberately disregards defending, in order to wound/kill the opponent.
ROW is the result of a martial art transforming into a combat sport. (and I don't mean this in a negative way or as a disrespect, just as a fact.) since you are no longer in a life threatening danger, self preservation gets a smaller focus.
@@szepi79 right of way is 300 years old. Its not a product of modern fencing.
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 I didn't say it is a modern thing. I said, and I quote
"ROW is the result of a martial art transforming into a combat sport."
@@szepi79 but its just not. Not any more than 16th century german longsword being clearly influenced by contemporary tournament rules also has the same effect
Great video! As a fairly active HEMA competitor who's been doing it a while and did some MOF and fought MOF-based fencers a fair amount. I agree with the physicality it can't be overestimated. The footwork thing is also important. I'd also like to point out the quality of HEMA training is hugely variable. The better clubs don't really have that much trouble dealing with people from an MOF background coming in unless the new fencer has taken the time to really learn HEMA.
A note on the foot-hand disassociation. With heavier weapons you benefit from power generation from the full body. For example, boxing does not use disassociation on most blows because you need the power.
Offline, at long ranges the only use that the offline is effective for tends to be denying launch on an attack, if you have to pivot to face, in that moment you can't launch an attack or if they do they are disadvantaged. That's a common strategy. The other use is as people close so you are at a boxing distance you move out and keep moving.
Biggest thing I'd say though both from a realism and a translation to HEMA pov recognition of safe openings is a big thing. If you fight in an afterblow ruleset a big part of avoiding it comes from knowing which openings you can take and also get out. MOF fencers have a lot of instincts of what is a valid opening that can get them in trouble and quite heavily concussed.
Agreed -- you have to be careful using MOF techniques when fencing longsword. Some longsword guys will just swing really hard at your head and a longsword can easily crumple a fencing mask and cause a concussion. I've known one or two good fencers who suffered concussions and lost fencing masks because they went for the thrust or tap cut without covering against the revenge blow. With good body mechanics it takes very little preparation to make a devastating blow with a two-handed sword, since concussive head blows were kind of the point when the art was written down.
If you take actual real sword a lot of the "weak hits" from fencing makes serious wounds. Normal kitchen knife can accidentally cause serious wound while mishandled with near zero force, and its just a relatively dull knife. Its swordfighting agaisnt unarmored opponents. It has completely different dynamic to longsword for example that was mainly used against armored opponents in actual combat.
The thing is, sport fencing specifically evolved out of training for dueling with smallswords, originally. I don't know if anyone actually does smallsword HEMA as dueling with smallsword is pretty far removed from combat as-is, but I'd imagine the techniques unsurprisingly translate better to the actual use case.
Pointing out it will get you concussed in something like longsword I feel is a bit akin to pointing out a champion air rifle shooter will end up with a sore shoulder of they try to translate their techniques to skeet shooting. True, but I think most recognize they're pretty different techniques despite both being shooty things.
Right of way also teaches and was intended to simulate fear of the point.
Right of the wazseems to be used as exact opposite as it was intended... Its better to judgeafterblows that wight of the way.
Pain should teach "fear of the point" not an entirely subjective, arbitrary rule There were no judges IRL. Do boxers have to allow their opponents to punch them in the name of "right of way"? No, or course not.
@@krystofcisar469No because it's easier to double than it is to defend, so you will get fencers who make afterblows as ripostes without parries. Epeeists spend countless hours drilling their reflexes to counterthrust the moment they feel their parry fail.
Fear of the blade should dictate that the fencer who lost the initiative defends as if their health depends on it, rather than facetank it like the living dead.
@KarlKarsnark no judges irl?? what do you mean by irl. fencing is a real sport in real life that has judges. historically, judicial duels were made with witnesses and judges to record results and officiate the duel. im not sure what you're getting at here.
@@KarlKarsnark the rule isn't really arbitrary. Its application is somewhat with the advent of electrical scoring. But that rule was used contemporaneously with actually training people to duel, which you'd obviously rather do in a less deadly way than an actual duel, and it worked pretty well.
You found your target audience.
I've been dismissal of this kind of fencing, and now have a greater appreciation of it
As a relatively new HEMA fencer, I've always respected and loved Olympic fencing for what it is. I hear the arguments back and forth, but I genuinely don't understand why some people get so hung up on comparing styles or individual sports. Kendo, other eastern sword martial arts, Olympic Fencing, and HEMA are so vastly different and unique, and that's why I like them. Don't get me wrong, everyone has a bias to a degree, but I just find it silly to get so "technical" when it's a non-issue. Most of the time, at least.
People just want their sword-based sport to be recognized as the true heir of ancient mastery.
HEMA and Kendo are much closer to the "real" thing compared to "Olympic" fencing, or "Olympic" anything for that matter. Just look how its ruined Judo. This form of "sword play" is just a glorified game of Tag! and should be treated more akin to boxing where you trade blows for a given amount of time, rather than one hit, stop, scream, beg the judge for points, stop, scream, beg the judges for points....It's as obnoxious as it is unrealistic. "Fake fighting" is dumb and a waste of everyone's time. Boxers draw blood from time to time and should "swordsmen".
@@KarlKarsnarkModern fencing evolved from duels to first blood, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a boxing style system. Even if it didn't evolve from that, it's pretty hard to just keep going after getting hit with a fucking sword. Also, yelling is done in plenty of sports and martial arts, fencers absolutely do draw blood occasionally, fake fighting is much better than killing each other and you clearly have never fenced or weren't very good if you think fencing is like a game of tag.
I take some issue with the examples you used for HEMA. There is a TON of linear styles. But the one you showed for non-linear fencing is literally an entire style developed in spain for the purposes of not leaping straight into someones blade. That style does not focus on the attack nor linear movement for the exact reason of personal safety. This spanish style is entirely about the bind. Something that is very hard to do on an epee or foil because the blades just arent rigid enough.
Then for your example of the linear HEMA fighter. Robert Childs is one of the best historical rapier fencers in the world specifically training that low guard linear lunge style. Its great, but you need to be suuuuuuuuuper careful or you will double. I would know, its the style i train.
The primary issues that a lot of modern HEMA people have with MOF is the doubles, the blade flex, and the lack of Quillons. Its so hard to do a proper displacement and lunge without quillions. You basically have to fully commit to the parry. The blades are so flexy that doing a proper bind is damn near impossible. Since you can kinda just muscle the blade out when retreating (as well as no quillions for locking the blade, especially if you have forward swept ones).
Doubles gets its own paragraph. I really, really dont care if i stabbed you first, if im also bleeding out on the ground. MOF just looks so suicidal to me because of the disregard for doubling. Its a substantial reason HEMA and most historical duels didnt rocket off like in MOF. Personally, i have the physicality to fence at a collegiate level (in regard to speed). But i dont, because if a launch like that. Im gonna eat steel (which i did before i learned to slow down). And even if i got him first, i still lose. So picking your moment to lunge is far more important than out muscling them. Again watch the robert childs clip. He sees the guy moving around, and the moment he steps in range, bam. 1 shot, no wasted movement.
And when you commit to parry and do it perfectly - blade bends around it and scores.
@@konstantin3374The ref is to give the parry repost to the one who properly defended and fluidity of the blade (whip over) is not to be counted. It's in the the book "Modern Fencing" by Navy coach Clovis Deladrier.
@@TalesForWhales my issue here is that blade with defined edges and flats would not be fluid when striking with proper edge alignment.
MOF changed a lot when they introduced electric scoring. It became a lot faster but far more detached from its origins. And to me it's just not interesting to watch most sabre tournament matches, even with Right of Way/Row rules (which are not being used as written), because it's kinda what you said. They are suiciding into eachother, and the first one to hit, got the point.
However, there is also plenty to be said about HEMA's obsession with doubles and the afterblow, to the point people use it to salvage lost exchanges as late counter attacks or failed voiding/timed cuts. Even though I consider RoW as being flawed as a rule system, I consider it a lot better than the bs you see in many HEMA sabre tournaments, simply for the fact that it teaches people to defend themselves. There's plenty of cases where people fight with overly heavy sabers (800g-900g) and their strategy for the defense is just using distance traping and timed cuts, rarely parrying, simply because they know they can't enter parry-riposte dialogues with those sabers so they are better off trying to time the opponent and if they fail they are "saved" by the double, rules-wise... In principle, they hide behind the idea that "the attacker was also 'suicidal' so both are to be blamed", which was something RoW fixed.
Also, we already have historical rules to be used for military tournaments "on the ground" (not RoW, since those were for the "salle"). Even if a lot of tournaments are using some variation of it, they forget one important thing about them - jackasses who were doubling out with out of tempo afterblows could be kicked out of the competition for simply being considered bad fencers, which makes a lot more sense than punishing both fencers for the stupidity of one of them.
In both cases, MOF or HEMA, tournaments end up ruining the sport, and I simply couldn't care less about them. That's why I tend to have the historical context always present when I bout, instead of just seeking the point to win a medal. RoW is helpful to judge who should be defending, and the martial context is important to make sure you don't attack without the ability to recover afterwards.
The HEMA thing about doubling is weird though because it's more a problem in HEMA afterblow tournaments than it is in modern Epee. I feel like it's more of a rhetorical device than an actual concern.
As an epee fencer, I think maintaining some semblance of historical relevancy is important in keeping Olympic fencing alive. Right of way rules and extremely light weapons leads to unrealistic techniques like ‘flicks,’ which (to me, at least) makes the sport less appealing to the next generation. Could using a ~50 gram super flexible ultralight weapons increase the speed, and perhaps even artistry and beauty of the sport? Maybe. But there will be young girls and boys re-inventing single stick fencing and dusack in their backyards, and some of them will inevitably drift away from the Olympic sport towards other disciplines (HEMA, kendo, etc) that do a better job of recreating that exhilaration of footwork and blade play that fencing delivers.
Nope. Fencing should just be fencing. There is no such need to replicate real swords anymore.
@@FistofGodfrey And if that's what people want to do, that's fine for them, you just need to pick a different name because fencing has historically meant swordsmanship. Like you said, fencing should just be fencing. Olympic electric pointy stick tag should be whatever you want to call it.
@@yankeefan984, or use Olympic fencing to refer to the sport.
Just like Olympic taekwondo is different from what was used in real combat.
Modern fencing strikes me as being like boxing without meaningful consequence. As a spectator sport, it leaves a lot to be desired. It's like the golf of combat sports.
10:55 bro did my grandma dirty
8:24 he did miles dirty 😂
It is important to consider the realism of fencing because, as discussed in the video, it is more realistic than many people believe. Fencing's proud legacy, stemming from the art of swordsmanship, distinguishes it from other sports. Unlike many other sports that focus solely on scoring points, fencing offers a unique experience. While most individuals start off enamored with swords as children, many athletically inclined individuals become disillusioned along the way due to the points highlighted in the video. Theatricality and anachronism distort the true effectiveness of fencing which is an age-old practice. Those who misrepresent fencing to our core practitioners do so intentionally, seeking to gain an advantage. To make fencing relevant again, we must leverage its legacy more effectively. Sharing this video is one way to achieve this goal.
Nice one! The main thing missing from any form of sport combat and a duel or war is fear of harm or death. Stake your house on a one-hit epee fight and you'll have something more like a duel. Part of the rationale of the conventions of foil and sabre was to compel respect for the threat posed by an attack or riposte. Epeeists win by their clean hits, which has something like the same effect. Foil has wandered furthest away from the basic concepts of fencing - which is why I gave it up. In sum, a very good video. Thank you.
I'm not so sure about foil being furthest from "real" fencing. It is based on how smallsword was trained at a time when you learned to win fights and not just duels. The valid hit areas are those that are likely to incapacitate an opponent, minus the head that was too dangerous during early training without masks. Getting your blade stuck in the leg of an opponent are likely to get you killed.
Epee comes (via smallsword) from duelling to first blood. Any hit is a win, even if meant you would be killed in a street fight.
None of them isn't inherently more "realistic". You could argue that foil has had a longer time to sportify, as self defence with smallsword was long gone at the time real duels with Epee (de combat) was still a thing.
@@jonasbarka I agree, foil, as fought by the rules as written has its own approach to realism. Foil isn't often fought to those rules though. Re epee, A good hit to the arm would render an opponent helpless at less risk.
@@jonasbarka The avoidance of thrusts to the head in foil is a bit more complex than simple training safety (although that is likely part of it).
An analysis of bodies in Paris morgues in the 18th century found that of those who looked like they had died in a fight (i.e. the wounds were to the front of the body and not the back), the vast majority had been killed by thrusts to the torso, while wounds to the limbs or head tended to be superficial.
Which makes sense; a human skull is both tough and rounded, much like a helmet, and the odds of an attack simply glancing off are quite high. A thrust to the eye socket, or perhaps coming through the mouth or neck might be lethal, but these are much smaller targets than those presented by the vital areas of the torso.
It's weirdly similar to pistol shooting, where you will also be taught to aim center of mass most of the time.
Very nice point of view. I am fencing coach, historical fencing and Byzantine Swordsmanship instructor you are saying to the point! Salutations from Greece.
I'm a HEMA practitioner who also practices Epee, and I can confirm that a significant issue in HEMA is the lack of athleticism, insufficient footwork, and a general deficiency in basic skills, which translates to any martial arts-like sport.
I fully agree with the importance of lateral movement and sidestepping. Some people in HEMA seem to be delusional about this. Like, bro, what's the fastest possible way to reach the target? It's moving in the shortest possible straight line. You can't deny reality. However, situational sidestepping makes sense, but such footwork is more about setting occasional traps for counterattacks, counter tempos, etc., rather than trying to make it work for direct attacks.
Another thing I strongly agree with is the discussion on flexible blades. Some HEMA practitioners think that sport weapons are like whips with which you can flick around like a madman. This is completely untrue. When I picked up an epee for the first time and tried to perform a flick, I realized how difficult it actually is to do it consistently with proper technique.
I would love to see some of your content within the HEMA context.
Cheers!
I did foil for about a year before i started doing hema, then did both simultaneously for a while and yeah the footwork in my club always gets to me. I’m constantly trying to bring it up to my friends because it’s so important just to know how to simple step without bringing your feet together. I know my own footwork isn’t perfect but I want us to all practice it more.
I'd rather not have top level olympic footwork skills. The amount of time they absolutely lose control of their legs because they are pushing too hard is bonkers. Anklebreak city, population all olympic fencers. And they call that bullrushing "physicality".
Same here. I'm the only one in my club that practises both and I am quickly gaining the upper hand on many of my much more experienced hema mates from my athleticism alone. Some of the sports fencers also try rapier every once in a while, and they don't fare badly at all.
One should not underestimate how transferable the skills are between the two, and how useful they can be in the other discipline.
@xPyrielx I agree with most of it about hema. And yes the shortest way is the straight line…BUT for your opponent too…😉
As they saying goes in my (HEMA) circle: a good MOF background gives you bonuses for your HEMA fencing, the only negative you get is "reputation" :D
Indeed, HEMA is something like an adolescent child of MOF, that tries to find its own identity, and the basic start is a sort of negative definition, "We are not MOF". This gives some valid unique features, but also throws out the baby with the bathwater in a lot of others. Overall, however, I am fairly convinced that (just as most adolescents do, when they grow up), the two will reconcile and coexist, and HEMA would be just as legit a sport as MOF is currently.
After years of Olympic fencing, the thing that bugs the crap out of me in movies is distance and threat. Movie fights are set up so the actors are safe, which means they do most of their actions out of distance (no real chance to hit). And for drama's sake, they use big actions that take their weapons way off target, which means no real chance to hit. Distance is all wrong, weapons are not threatening target. Good drama. Bad fencing. Footwork is 100% key. It's what gets you in and out of distance. That's how you hit or avoid getting hit. Fencers with awesome footwork are super elegant and smooth. The back-and-forth (linear) nature of Olympic fencing also has to do with the equipment: imagine the reel cords getting tangled! Modern fencing weapons are also wear parts: they are designed to break but also to be minimally expensive to replace. Fancy HEMA weapons look spendy to me. For me as a middle-aged fencer, the fact that you can fence up to seventy plus and that people with lots of body types can fence well is one of the coolest aspects of the sport. From the HEMA bouts I've seen, they have referees, rules about hits, all of our safety equipment. Seems like a game as well. A different game but still a game.
Both sports are people playing with swords, as both lack the real life-or-death terror of an actual duel or battle (for the better, I should add!).
One side just cannot claim that the other is pretend without looking hypocritical.
"After years of Olympic fencing, the thing that bugs the crap out of me in movies is distance and threat."
that is not unique to fencing. pick any topic that you are more proficient than the average layman, you will notice films and tv shows get them wrong all the time. some of these errors are kinda "mandatory", since the movie must be understandable for everyone; some of these are made deliberately to make it watchable (no one is going to see a 15+ hours long movie about a sniper waiting for the right moment); some are made becuase of budget; and some are made out of ignorance. you'll have to learn to let it go and only cringe on the most blatant stuff, otherwise you won't be able to enjoy a lot of movies.
"From the HEMA bouts I've seen, they have referees, rules about hits, all of our safety equipment."
much, much more safety gear :D
"Seems like a game as well. A different game but still a game."
some of it definetally is. however, these are essentially metal bars weighing 1-2 kgs ( 2-4 pounds). you need to have some sort of self control, because no gear is going to protect against a full strength blow.
also, there is a movement where you practice with minimal amount of gear ( = a mask and gloves). you seriously need to "pull your punches" with that, and I can assure, you DO FEEL the danger while doing that. as a middle-aged fencer myself, it is not for me; but I can see why it has an audience.
@@szepi79 Cool! I had no idea there was a "minimal gear" HEMA. I KNOW I don't have enough skill to pull my punches, so I think I'll stick to Olympic fencing. I respect both but I know my own limits!
The problem with making fencing different than what swordfight is, is that people that want to swordfight won’t do fencing anymore. I did fencing for 2 years the moment I found a HEMA clube in my area I left Olympic fencing.
7:40
Actually, the epee's weight is surprisingly close to a "epee de duel".
Maybe less surprising when you consider that the epee modality was created by people who wanted it to be closer to the real deal.
That's also why it doesn't use the priority rule and you can touch anywhere on the opponent.
Also I love how many of the comments are basically "I'm a HEMAist and I fully agree with this video".
One of the best videos ever explaining modern fencing
Fantastic video dude! I always tell people fencing is a sport that trains many of the skills that tend to make good swordsmen (yet isnt a real swordfight), just like boxing trains the skills that tend to make good fighters (yet isn't a real fist fight).
Hema rapier fencer and instructor here. Great video, you did a very good job of explaining why people would unreasonably underestimate the huge qualities of a well trained modern sport fencer, and you also did a good job about speaking about the differences between sport fencing and an "hypothetical duel". Cheers!
Another amazing video from Slicer
Ive just started to get into fencing since it was also this mysterious sport that seems to appeal to the upper class. At least in Texas. I started following your channel to gradually learn more and this is the kind of info I’ve been looking for! Good stuff
I coach fencing in Texas and a lot of my young fencers come from some very blue collar families.
Firstly, I really feel like slowmo is underutilized in fencing. While an experienced fencer will catch it all in the moment, when you have tons of people who don't know what it is, slowmo can really capture the intensity that is fencing. Also, I am not sure if this already exists but I'd like to see a format of fencing where there is a 2 second delay from when you get the hit to which you can't get hit. I feel like it would give a defender even more incentive to counter attack. I can be completely wrong, like I said, I've never fenced.
As someone who’s done both Olympic Fencing and HEMA, HEMA only looks more ‘realistic’ because most practitioners generally don’t prioritize winning. i.e. there are no dedicated competitive training facilities and no standardized competitive rules.
Most of the HEMA community cares more about making their fencing look historic, rather than making it effective.
Fundamentally. because counter attacking / after blows are mechanically easier than defending, any competitive fencing discipline where the swords aren’t lethal will have a lot of double hits, because they’re a great strategy.
HEMA has not and cannot solve that problem, and if it developed a dedicated competitive community with a standardized set of rules, the historic aesthetic would break down entirely.
Blatantly false. Fencing in general has a lot of double hits, even with sharps. Read the coroners reports and the accounts of actual duels and most of the times both parties died. We are at least TRYING to survive our simulated duels instead of embracing the attempt of making our opponent bleed at all cost.
@@Nala15-Artist what’s your point?
Of course there are lots of double hits in a ‘historic’ context, because as I said it is an inherent property of swordplay that counter attacks are easier than parries, even with sharp weapons.
The problem is that without the threat of injury, in a competitive context defending with doubles is always a better strategy than trying to parry the majority of attacks, so competitors who are genuinely training to win will not defend in a ‘historically correct’ way because it’s a losing strategy.
Unless the rules make counter attacks and after blows lose, but no rules can do that without making ignoring counter attacks a winning strategy, which also ruins the historic aesthetic.
HEMA only looks the way it does because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules and because the vast majority of schools and practitioners train to look historical, not to win.
(The fact that you’re saying that you’re treating a match like it’s a lethal duel with sharp weapons instead of prioritizing victory illustrates my point entirely. Those motivations are fundamentally at odds.)
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
First of all, the historicity is NOT a mere aesthetic for us, it is fundamental to our sport. If it ain't historical, it ain't HEMA, only EMA at most.
Second, you said: "Fundamentally. because counter attacking / after blows are mechanically easier than defending, any competitive fencing discipline where the swords aren’t lethal will have a lot of double hits, because they’re a great strategy." That logically indicates that when swords ARE lethal, double hits happen less, which they don't. That alone shows that your point was invalid.
That aside, after blows and doubles are NOT a great strategy IF the ruleset punishes them, which olympic fencing really doesn't. Our rules almost always DO make after blows and doubles a losing strategy. Counter attacks however, in our context, are very much CORE to the systems we learn (especially in german longsword), so obviously you have no idea what you are talking about and are judging things from their looks, probably why you rail on and on about "aesthetic".
Besides all that, claiming that victory at all cost and historical accuracy are fundamentally at odds is a big claim and would need to be proven first. By you.
Go on. Pick up any HEMA weapon and enter a renowned tournament. Like Socalswords, Swordsquatch, Gesellenfechten, Fechtschule Freiburg or Gdansk tournament, Swordfish, any that have made a name. See how far your "VICTORY AT ALL COST" strategy gets you.
@@Nala15-Artist
1. You illustrated my point for me. As a philosophy, “If it ain’t historical it ain’t HEMA” is an aesthetic. That’s definitionally putting form before function.
2. All 3 Olympic weapons expressly penalize reactive doubling to make it a losing strategy: Epee through tight lockout time and Sabre and Foil through right of way.
3. Reactive doubling is very much a problem in HEMA tournaments. That’s why much of the tournament scene is dominated by former Olympic Fencers turned HEMAists and why many tournament hosts have started experimenting with variations or right of way rules, because they are frustrated that their tournaments are not being won by competitors fencing in a historical fashion.
4. “Your Rules,” are non existent. There is no body or alliance that regulates HEMA tournament rules or school that governs quality referees. That’s the principle reason it has been rejected as a potential Olympic event for the past two Olympic cycles.
But, if you would like to refute what I’ve written then it should be easy for you to direct me to widely adopted single set of HEMA tourney rules that you think solves the reactive doubling problem.
(No such rule set exists because the HEMA community is stumbling into the very same systemic challenges that established sports like foil, kendo, and wushu have been refining for decades, but it’s very cool to follow a proto-sport in the making, participating in a community that’s taking its first early steps towards turning an undisciplined hobby into a truly competitive sport.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
1. Dude, it's historical European martial arts. Take the history part out of it, and the whole exercise becomes European martial arts at best. We are interested in history, not modernity. That's not an aesthetic, it's core to our art. And if you wanna talk form before function, look at olympic fencing first.
2. And yet, more than half of the supposedly top level bouts this video alone shows are doubles. Olympic fencing is not penalizing doubles, it is simply not awarding points for doubles, that is a huge difference. And experimenting is fine, though there are a ton of clubs going down the path of penalizing doubles in a different way instead of just "you may ignore that strike that totally would have killed you if this was a real duel", which is what right of way basically has become.
3. You got any proof for that? Well hey, who knew. Blomquist was a competitive ice-skater before he did HEMA. I think this has less to do with olympic fencing's validity and more with the character of people who are in it to win competitions and nothing else AND have the time and money to do so, and likely already have been developed athletes before they even hit puberty AND are probably not against using steroids.
4. If our rules are so non-existent, why don't you join a HEMA tournament and ignore all the rules? See what happens.
I don't have to refute anything because you are making claims with no proof AND are trying to set the goalposts (probably just so you can move them). You yet have to prove how olympic fencing is solving the doubling problem (evidence? Again, look at the video above, and no, not counting hits because one fencer struck 0.25 secs before the other hit him back is NOT solving the problem, it's IGNORING it).
And who are you to say that HEMA has to become a competitive sport with an international ruling body and millions of dollars behind it? Maybe we HEMA practitioners don't want to become a toxic, abusive cesspit of bribes, corruption, brand deals, politics and steroids?
Great video. I trained hema getting close to 20 years and sport fencing for the past 7, weekly privates and club fencing under a traditional coach. Totally changed my approach and made me a better competitor and coach.
I fenced to a fairly high level at university and really enjoyed ‘educating’ live role players(LARPers), who often had contempt for my sport - they were so slow and clumsy!
Something I've learned in my (admittedly short) time on HEMA, is that the footwork for lunges is very different to the one Found in fencing. For HEMA it is very important to keep both feet planted on the ground during the lunge, since the potential counter attack comes in with a lot of force (especially in Longsword, or when grappling/disarming is involved). If you don't have your feet planted properly, you risk injury to your ankles. In fencing, the lunge maximises the distance covered, thus the feet don't stay planted. Both is perfectly valid in their own sport, but could be problematic if used in the other scenario.
No weapons “sparring” is realistic, it could be fencing, hema, kendo… they’re way different from an actual fight to the death with real blades, nevertheless they’re cool sports and a lot of fun.
Braindead
They're "realistic" until the moment one fighter's weapon connects with the other fighter's body, then the simulation breaks down.
This is why most weapon-based martial arts have rules that stop at the hit. A regrettable but necessary abstraction.
@@MisdirectedSasha No, even then they’re not, because you’re mindset would be totally different if the stakes were kill or be killed.
@@marcoantoniogarcia38 what makes you think that?
When your sports has devolved to a game of tag, it's especially unrealistic.
One of the things I've noticed taking my fencing skillset outside of the fencing world and into HEMA and Bellegarth and other systems, is that these systems that try to be "realistic" or "historically accurate" have to tendency to hamstring themselves. They'll avoid practicing footwork too extensively because it doesn't appear in their books that often, or they wont practice wild flunges or crazy moves because they're "too sporty" or "not historical." As true as that might be, that physicality and that footwork are so incredibly valuable that in my experience olympic fencers have a lot easier of a time adapting to HEMA or other sword-fighting systems than the other way around.
There's kind of a division in HEMA with some clubs being just kind of hobby groups chilling and some being straight up fencing schools aiming to produce competitive swordsmen. Clubs that train people with competitive approach put a lot of emphasis on footwork and will quickly adopt any move that proves it's worth in actual fight.
Also, one of the reasons that olympic fencers have better time adapting to HEMA than other way around is because they start younger, people mostly discover HEMA as adults, some (like me) just begin at the age most professional sports would consider retirement age. Meanwhile olympic fencers can start training at 14, if not earlier.
The thing is at its beginning and at its core, HEMA wasn't meant to be a sport; it was meant to be applied historical research on western martial arts. Competitions help, but weren't the core, and personally I don't really think they should be.
@@alessandronavone6731 at it's beginning and it's core HEMA was a desire to have meaninful sword fighting activity based on something real. It simply wouldn't have existed without the joy of giving someone the taste of historically accurate yet non-lethal blade.
As it grew in popularity and attracted people - eventually it had enough of both hardcore history nerds who can't hold a sword firmly and competitive people who haven't seen a fechtbuch with their two eyes for divide and clashes between historical and competitive aspects to appear.
@@konstantin3374 I think Matt Easton made a video on this subject one or two years ago. I guess you know about him but if not - he's one of the OG founding fathers, literally created the term and original methods. My impression derives from what I remember from that video of his. Might remember wrong; in any case, if you'd like to check it out, I'd recommend it, it was one of his most interesting.
@@alessandronavone6731 as I recall he was into swords, armor and movies featuring sword fights during his childhood, became aware of reenactment and was doing archery for a while. He isn't exactly "founding father", but I'd say he's first generation of practical HEMA with all the competitive scene being formed under his and other 00s clubs influence.
I did fencing. My issue was how bendy the foils are.
epee is less bendy. Though I had no issue with foil bendiness as flicking is only required and mainly used on a very high level, amateurs do not flick and even I when faced a high level fencer he/she destroyed me without any flicks
Try hema... Its not so floppy :D
Yes I like sword swords more.
Funnily enough, if you ever have the chance to fence with full-length (like 21') pikes, they behave almost exactly like foils - bendyness and all.
You know, except for the part where you have to use them two-handed, can hit someone from across a full tennis court, and will blow your back out if you put a foot wrong.
It's an extremely silly weapon, but pulling off a 4-6 disengage with a pike is hilarious.
Fencing is the interchange of thrusts, parries and ripostes that take place before a hit is made. They still call it fencing in the sports world but fencing has been replaced with speed and athletics, and virtually nothing happens between launching an attack and making a hit. No sword had a pistol grip. No sword had a large offset guard. No sabre had a thin whippy blade. Nobody won a duel by making a hit a fraction of a second before they were killed. If you're interested in fencing, look into smallsword fencing. Become a fencer instead of a hitter.
As someone who spends way too much time with both fencing (modern and historical): lots to say.
The modern sport is a game and like many others, it’s important to them. It doesn’t align with the popular notion of fencing being the art of sword play which imo leads to most of this.
Beyond this when it comes to martial LARP, epee was the original to do this. ROW is a useful pedagogical tool but since the 1800s this conversation on real sword fights has been happening. Epee is the 18th century response.
Past that, as far as psychology goes nothing really simulates a duel. Aldo Nadi has great writings about this and despite being an Olympic champion at the time we see his form go out the window in the video and that he felt dueling was different. He also won and managed not to kill his opponent (his goal). Kind of a fun little historical anecdote.
Thank you for making this, I really appreciate how articulately you put your points, and only partially because because they're arguments I've been making with HEMA.....
I really do think that modern fencers oversell how much their fencing is purely a sport removed from violence of any kind, though I also understand why you would since it means you don't have to deal with the worst people on the internet. But if you compare sword fighting to unarmed fighting, fencing has a lot in common with martial arts like boxing of muay thai, which are also the martial arts that actually train someone to fight well, and very little in common with the marital arts that are useless for fighting.
I would point out that the sorts of things sword nerds claim about modern fencing are also things that the same people complain about within HEMA as well, and the arguments are even weaker there.
Fencing feels like it would be effective in a real sci-fi laser sword fight more than in a metal sword fight.
i´ve said it already in another one of your videos:If its past midnight and i find myself at a doggy tabern in Renaissance Spain i´d always pick Szilagyi as my drinking partner over any Hema swordsman - no disrespect to them. If we are talking about a knife fight in a dark street I pick Foconi as a buddy over any so called knife master in the interwebs. 😅
Beautifully put and my exact sentiments.
I would not need a drinking partner or a buddy in either cases.
Thank you slicer for another amazing video
Really good video - everyone should want to try fencing after watching this. Fencing is not like a duel, but it's not trying to be, it's a sport. But the fundamentals you've covered, Mental, Physical, Technical and Tactical would translate very well if they dropped fencers into a duel.
It's hard to explain but I've been training broadsword and straight sword for a while and if you swung them like you see in the movies you would quickly lose an appendage as you leave yourself extremely exposed. Fencing is great to watch. Nice video.
Thank you. Great video. I now see this sport in a completely different light.
Thank you kindly for the video, it is excellent as always.
As regards the sportification of fencing - without any value judgements whatsoever about if this is "good" or "bad," fencing has as you correctly point out always to some degree been a sport, no matter how far back we take it. However, there comes a key point of divergence relatively recently when people start taking the rules not as intended, but purely as written - which is to say, the unspoken cultural or aesthetic requirements are tossed and people fence to win by the rulebook. This gives us our modern metas. And it's not as if historical fencing is immune to these, we absolutely fence to our rulesets.
At the end of the day, I think "realistic" is not super relevant as a metric. We're doing a sport - even those historical fencers who clutch their pearls about how they're doing a true martial art tm have layers and layers of abstraction from some preconceived "real thing." And currently, historical fencing has a lot more to learn from modern (whether that be in athleticism, sports psychology or approaches to the sport) than vice versa.
Historical Fencing instructor here. Interestingly enough I actually started with Olympic or modern fencing myself. I agree with you on many points but thought I'd lend my perspective, having done both. First is the importance of being physically competent. This one is paramount for high level competition in just about any discipline. It's an advantage you can use regardless of what discipline or game you're playing. Why wouldn't one do it? One of the reasons I think we tend to see much more physical competency in Olympic fencing over historical I believe is the pedigree. Olympic fencers these days often started when they were very young and have done it for years, or go into it with the express idea of doing this for competition where they intend to go to tournaments and compete. HEMA however is really quite a new thing still with most members/students etc... have only discovered it as an adult. It's quite rare to even have classes for students that are not already adults. Unless those people have done Olympic fencing when they were young or come from some other very physically demanding discipline, they're already behind on physical competency.
It's also worth noting that the quality of instruction in HEMA groups varies wildly. Being such a new thing, many instructors can be only a few years ahead of their students and with little competition experience. Of course others clubs have instructors that have 20-30 years of experience and really know what they're doing. But it does lead to anecdotes where a 2-3 year modern fencer goes to a local HEMA school and cleans house.
I think the biggest thing for cross over is the difference in equipment. The MUCH heavier weapons that are used in HEMA tend to slow the game down significantly and punch up the consequences of being struck. Not that it's slow, but compared to the ridiculously light blades on Olympic foils, epee's and sabers, the real thing completely changes how you have to use it, what you can do with it and more importantly what you can't do with it. I've fought a fair few modern fencers in HEMA and despite them being in excellent form and very fast, their downfall was always either not being able to do most of their favorite techniques with a weapon that is so much heavier, or simply not having any idea of what the real weapons are capable of and how they can be used. In that I include things like Quillons, binds and off-hand techniques such as blade grabs and traps which always throw them off.
That said a modern fencer with the training and athleticism, that then learns the weapons and techniques of real historical systems will be a force to be reckoned with. I think as HEMA matures we will start to see many more HEMA fencers that are starting younger, training harder, competing more and learning from more seasoned instructors/coaches, we will see that physical competency gap between modern and historical fencing shrink a great deal.
Great video! Don't forget who you are or where you come from. Fencing only exists as an olympic sport because there was a resurgence of dueling and training for it at the end of the 19th century, which coincides with the beginning of the modern olympic games. Fencing is the most popular European form of a living sword art continually practiced and evolving over centuries. The HEMA community should recognize this and understand that despite all the distance that exists between what is practiced nowadays within the sport and real combat, it is still the OG.
I once fought in a hema tournament where I cracked a rib in my first match if the day. I went on to fight three more before the pain was to much and I couldn't hold my sword up anymore.
I know noting about fencing. I've never played. I've barely watched any rounds, but this was really captivating to watch. 10/10, thank you Slicer Sabre.
As a HEMA instructor with a background in foil and epee, my absolute favorite students are often people with modern fencing backgrounds because they already know the basics at an extremely high level. All a decent epeeist needs, for example, is a few weeks or months of instruction in the specifics of longsword before I'd be comfortable sending them to a tournament against people who have been doing longsword for years.
The other movie with the best fencing choreography was Ridley Scott's 1972 film The Duelists.
Most all Ridley Scott films catch the mixture clarity and confusion that I remember from fencing. But the duellists is the best !
Another fantastic video, thank you!
The way I kinda think about is that airsoft is to real military stuff like olympic fencing is to real melee fights. Both are one hit systems that ignore multiple hits, and both have weaker structure between combatants (ie: modern swords are thinner and more flexible and airsoft guns have less range and the bbs go off target more).
Fencing is really useful for lightsaber dueling
from my understanding of circular vs. linear footwork: it’s not as easy to distinguish the two as you’d think. all footwork will be linear at the start of a fight, since circular footwork only works if you’re voiding or otherwise creating distance for a parry.
that said there’s a _lot_ of great circular footwork in rapier plays and it’s fun to land them, makes me feel like a foppish genlteman every time.
I think another important aspect is the right of way & afterblow rule differences between the sport fencing(s) & HEMA. I'd love to see a discussion on the more sport design end.
Excellent and insightful commentary. Thanks slicer sabre ! :)
Perhaps there should be a form where fencers: jump on table tops, balance over the backs of chairs, swing from chandeliers, slide down banisters, glide down tapestry…all that sort of thing. The winner will be the one who chooses to utilises the most of these props 😁
This video was sick, keep it up!
I absolutely agree with many of the points in this video. But i would like to add something. I am one of the people that started in Sport Fencing and then moved into historical fencing. They are almost entirely different disciplines. One of the notes you made about sport fencers finding success in historical fencing is accurate, but your reasoning is a little off-target. Historical fencers absolutely focus a great deal on footwork and measure. I don't think that's why they find success.
There's HEMA and there's HEMA. Amount of attention people pay to footwork and training in general differs greatly between clubs.
If for whatever reason there will be a boom in HEMA popularity it will inevitably split into competitive sport clubs with blades rusting from all the sweat in the air and historical hobby circles more interested in old books than climbing the pedestal.
Yes, together with proper defensive game, footwork, distance and timings are the first thing sport fencers needs to re-learn to have succes in HEMA.
just because it's not realistic, doesn't mean it doesn't have value or isn't fun. It's a sport, not a realistic combat simulation
As someone whos started dabbling in hema recently, as well as a bloke who just loves his epee and foil (with my own channel I had completely forgotten to post to), this entire idea of the "lack of realism" has always struck me as pontificating about issues that are either unsolvable, or only exist at first glance. It used to frustrate me when it was handwaved as "modern fencing is just sport", bc while its a justification in itself, its also the case that, simply put, fencing is fencing.
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. The fundamental truth is that there is no perfect solution to the counter attack / after-blow problem.
It’s an inherent property of fencing that going for a double hit is mechanically easier than actually defending against an attack.
And no ruleset perfectly solves that problem. All of them make fencing unrealistic.
HEMA only maintains its ‘historic aesthetic’ because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules and because most of its practitioners care more about meeting that aesthetic than actually trying to win.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112there is a ruleset that does account for it. If you get hit with an afterblow, it goes as a loss on both of your score cards. Hit clean or you lose anyway.
Cope
@@Champion_14 I do both modern fencing and hema lol. they are the same
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 you are clearly a member of thr LGBT community because your words are that of a F4660T
Right of Way is actually the greatest fault of modern fencing, it is not that you need to first defend against attack, it is that your opponent can launch a suicidal attack and still score, or invalidate you fair response that would have ended with both fencers hurt or dead. This is something we are actively fighting against in HEMA, as when right of way is used in tournaments, the fencing is terrible, and a lot of injuries happen. It would be easier to dismiss all other aspects of Modern Fencing as sportification, but Right of Way fundamentally changes the nature and strategy of the fight for the worse.
I am a HEMA instructor of 5 years (practicing for much longer) and I have long been interested in the similarities and differences of Olympic fencing and HEMA. (Note: I have done 2 years of Olympic fencing as well, and practice with saber and rapier, but largely focus on Longsword.) I thought I might give you my thoughts (I know they weren’t asked for). First, I entirely agree that HEMA practitioners should ABSOLUTELY do more footwork and distance drills. Second, I respectfully disagree about the importance of offline movement. Adding the 3rd dimension dramatically changes the dynamic of a fight, and just as 1/2 of an inch in distance is all that matters in getting the hit or defending against one, just 2-3 degrees can do the same.
Thirdly, I think making a distinction between the three swords is important. I think Epee, largely an analog for the smallsword, is the most realistic. You need to hit with the point, enough to press the button, with no RoW to worry about. The smallsword had no blade so this is fairly solid. Foil, supposedly a similar analog, is worse as it is simply an electric circuit that just requires a touch with any part of that electrified tip on the opponent’s top 3rd. It is far too flexible and light. Saber is the worst offender in my opinion. As the name implies, it is trying to be a Saber, but is FAR too light, and as you mentioned, edge alignment is not required. But on top of that, sufficiency is not taken into account either. I.e. the force necessity actually cut, which is very important. In even intermediate fencing, people will flick the sword so that the momentum will bend the blade to ever so slightly touch their opponent and get the point. All of this is compounded by the downsides of RoW.
I mostly agree with what you are saying. Related to HEMA though, one counter POV and two general "complaints" about MOF (one of which extends to HEMA as well):
WRT the side step / rotation, I think you are vastly underestimating the practicality of side stepping and rotating, as well as overestimating how easy it is to defend (simply by rotating). Certainly there are some HEMA forms that side stepping is a but cumbersome and not as useful, but there are others that make it movement 101... mission critical skills. The only thing that needs to be on the line is your sword. The body need not be.
A big part of getting in, striking, and getting out clean in an efficient and life safe manor is the art of deception. And side stepping / rotating is a great tool in that toolbox. If done well, it also plays against the opponent's body mechanics. Suddenly changing the line of combat confuses the opponent. Shifting the line of combat to their weak or blind sides makes it harder for them to retaliate.
The dragging of the rear foot insole down to the ankle always give me the shivers. Seeing people nearly lay their inside calf down on the mat must be in the nightmares of every sports therapist. How many ankle and knee injuries to MOF players get? Am I over-reacting? I see it occasionally in HEMA people too.. and I feel like its a think that needs to be whipped out of them.
Speaking of things needing to be whipped out.. MOF fencers tearing off their masks IMMEDIATELY after scoring a point. While the opponent is still in motion even. Yellow cards! PLEASE. So focused on their own point, they dont see they are still in potential danger. If MOF had quillions.... there would be more missing eyes. Removing equipment is a group 1 offense (yellow then red card). Touching the piste should = mask on.. no exceptions.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I must admit, I always thought that HEMA was superior for its approach to historicality and realism. But you made me think differently about olympic fencing and realize how athletic and technical it is. I'll still continue to prefer HEMA and I simply love the longsword, but I will now definitely appreciate olympic fencing more.
Nice video thanks!
if you had an odd scenario and had to fight a random person to the death via sword or a trained fencer via sword only a fool wouldn't go with the random person option.
great video !
Fencing needs to become more organic and personal. Small clubs and more promotion. It needs to become more like skateboarding. It’s to tide to Olympics and we don’t see it enough. It needs a ufc or boxing style approach
Great summary of a sport that is a lot more than a sport
4:32 This is true because people compare advanced sport fencers vs beginner HEMA practitioners. If you pit Richard Marsden with a sharp polish saber against a olympic gold medalist in saber fencing with a sharp duelling saber, Richard would win 8/10 due to the fact that he is trained to keep himself safe. He trains to hit without being hit, instead of simply advancing at his oponent in order to get a right of way. But you are indeed correct that there are many clubs who don't do foot work and distancing enough.
Not to mention that a duelling saber, though it may be quick, is not designed to kill an oponent. If you where to arm the olympic style fencer with an actual infantry saber, he would tire easily and quickly and would be disarmed or killed with ease.
6:30 this really is only true for thrusting. Even in late saber sources, the lunge is what gives effect to the cut, especially if we are going for realism here and considering that there's clothing to get through.
I have an interesting idea for a video that is fencing related which may peek your intrested. The FIE actually made a mobile game, that is basically a "Fencing Simultor"
it's called FIE Swordplay. And it's still gets regular updates by the FIE and patches too, yhe gameplay is really engaging and is a bit repetitive after a bit but still fun. But there are optional cosmetics and regular P2P mobile games. But it does include all the different types of matches you can, do in competitive fencing and all the different Sword types too.
And has an online comp mode and (unlike the Olympics and the rest of competitive fencing) the Russians dominate it!
But despite all that its very fun and can become addictive after a while.
Commentary aside, this is an incredible collection of touches
Absolutely, from a HEMA background, having the sport fencing background is absolutely important because as you said, many in our field don't work on footwork and distance that much. Many with a sport fencing background absolutely smear in hema especially: smallsword/rapier & dagger *your clip showed the legendary Robert Childs*, and Sword and Buckler. People going from HEMA will try to get to binds/grapples, but a sport fencer will strike you much faster because beats/disengages and because blade moves faster than body. I saw another vid put it that it makes more sense to come from the sport portion first and then add the extra HEMA stuff after to augment.
I have huge respect for Rob Childs! I come from 20+ years Filipino training in blade work. I have also studied Japanese swordsmanship, and done a little HEMA. While Olympic fencing has some translatability to rapier and small sword, it doesn’t “look” like blade arts from the rest of the world… in my estimation the sport ruleset probably incentivizes as many bad habits as it promotes good ones. There is a reason officers abandoned small swords and spadroon as time went on in favor of sabers. Sabers, langmessers, falchion, arming swords, side swords, highland basket swords, Roman gladius/spatha, Viking swords, Indian talwar, katana, etc… ALL are similar takes on a near optimal design. Length and other things do change from sword to sword, but these things are HEAVY in the hand, and heavy in the bind. To handle a sword, you need years to build the muscle and feel for it….. just like a boxer learns to punch and a taekwondo person learns to kick. It goes all up and down the kinetic chain, so some styles need passing steps to manage the weight and so on. TLDR; it’s just so arrogant to say Olympic fencing translates to handling a sword.
Big issue with fencing - it’s not who hits first. If you hit and get hit you’d both have died from infection.
in HEMA the importance of distance is more based on the type of weapon, but in general distance is king. but some weapons dont care as much about distance becaouse other factors and weapon types
I don't know, I've held a real sword and a fencing saber. There's a massive difference in weight and that lets you get away with things but you wouldn't be able to do with a real sword.
Edit: Also, and probably more importantly, the usefulness of lateral movement should not be underestimated. When avoiding a strike, moving diagonally messes with the geometry of your opponent's attack, effectively increasing the distance between you and them faster than if you retreated in a linear path. It can buy you that extra inch you might need to escape.
Lateral movement is also quite useful when combined with a well-placed and aggressive parry - then, not only do you have the flank but their blade is out of line.
The fencing duel in Wednesday is so slow, I can’t even-
I would say that lots of the moment to moment bouts aren't exactly "historical" but the skills trained by modern olympic fencers are absolutely the kind of skills that are necessary for successful historical fencing. I find the best historical fencers cross-train with olympic fencing techniques.
We have records of fencing schools in london going back to the 12th century. There is so much the old fechtbuchs don't tell us that would have been taught. Relying solely on the manuals is not historical. Footwork beyond the absolute basics is rarely gone over and I myself have seen great improvement incorporating modern footwork training into my hema regime.
Regarding the extra axis of movement hema allows. After doing hema for over two years I find I rarely end up moving laterally except when very close. But I do notice brand new hema fencers doing it a lot more. Walking around me in a circle.
No swordsman in History ever went around trying to "impale" themselves. That's just idiotic hyperbole, but they would absolutely attack "as if their life depended on it", because it did. Under those conditions, you can't just "bide your time", "look to the judges", "hope to win on points", you have to be decisive and physically impose your will (to live) on your opponent. It's meant to be brutal.
Epee is probably the most divorced from historical fencing, but the fundamentals are mostly the same. The biggest difference I find having fenced with people who started with Olympic fencing is that the angles change a fair bit when you can move more side to side. I also find the Olympic scoring system really hurts the transition as well. I can't remember what it's called, but how Olympic fencing deals with doubles. It leads to Olympic fencers attacking in suicidal fashion, because they would score the point, whereas in other HEMA rule sets it would be a double, and with sharps they would still die as well.
So having watched some more, I want to point out some misconceptions. First, while you are correct that a small pivot can address the change in angle, you dismiss that as if forcing a pivot isn't a big deal. It very much is, as you are forcing the opponent into your tempo with that step. Second, taking an angle doesn't need to be an all at once thing- it can be slow and misleading, helping to gain measure in a difficult to perceive way.Y
You are straight wrong about back being the best direction to retreat to in HEMA. The first reason is that listed above. The second is that HEMA isn't always done in a gym or other clear flat area. Some arenas don't have nearly the distance, and others have obstacles you can trip on. An additional reason is that forcing a turn one direction or another can confuse an opponents footwork, like a fakeout in basketball, or simply to gain an outside or inside angle as the opponent pursues.
You mention it later in the video, so now I remember it's called right of way :P Frankly speaking, it's terrible from a historical perspective, and the biggest weakness Olympic fencers have when transitioning to HEMA. It *kind of* works from a sporting perspective, but I don't like it personally.
🥰 cute! fencing movements are so cool! imagine having legs like that
Sanguk at 5:38.....holy crap!
Yes, HEMAists actually ignore the importance of footwork.
Yes, indeed "right of way" has more ambiguities than meaning.
Yes, MOF indeed never tried to replicate the sword duels of yesteryear.
And to add my opinion, I believe that we should work to create a community of both Olympic and historical fencers.
Foilist here: great video and overview! I took a few notes 😉
05:35 oh sanguk's physicality in insane...
Imagine they made the boxing ring a narrow rectangle, so tight that you can only move forwards or backwards, when the first boxer to make contact (importance on making contact, it doesnt have to be a proper punch connecting in a valid area, any touch will do) the referee steps in and stops the match, awarding one point to the boxer who tapped the other boxer first. Both fighters are then reset and the same game repeats again.
Sounds absurd right, like someone took boxing and made it a basic first-to-touch wins game
Fencing is just that.
Fencing isn't a first to touch wins game
You just described sport karate.
100%. They made it too safe & now everyone just spams attacks. In boxing, the spamming is nicely counterbalanced by getting punched in the face if you disregard defence
Sabre an epee are the training simulators for first blood duelling weapons. The button weight on the epee is calibrated to be the force required to puncture the skin. These fencing systems are exactly what the should be.
Foil is a bit different. Foil is the training system and simulator for the small sword, thus not first blood. The conditions for skills development and a duel are different, it helps for training not to be a brawl.
Please understand that not every fencing system is interested in "experimental archeology", and use their sparring systems differently from the HEMA community.
Imagine the boxers had swords and were simulating a duel to first blood, and suddenly it makes way more sense. You don't need a very strong hit to maim someone with a sword, let alone draw a bit of blood.
Something that people don't appreciate is that any injury may very well end your career. Even the best fighter will lose an interaction eventually, and if that results in an injury because you're using real weapons you at best need to take time off to recover, and at worst become disable or die. If you're familiar with the graph of a geometric distribution, you know that if you keep taking a gamble repeatedly the probability that you will lose at least once approaches 100% *very* quickly. If risking injury is the only way you can practice, you won't get very far.
The fact that olympic fencing swords are "anti-weapons" means there's no limit to how much an olympic fencer can practice against other fencers.
How about slo-mo replays of the action for those of us who don't have feline reactions?
I think that a lot of comparisons can be made with Olympic taekwondo, you see in the sequences lots of attacks that you'll never in a match, attacks to the eyes, sweeps, kicks in the lower parts and to the knees.
Nice video. MOF probably has the most advanced pedagogy of any sport, with a long history of perfecting that transfer of knowledge. A great sport fencer can easily become a great HEMA fencer, I don't think there's any doubt about it, as it's been done lots. The other way around, not so much, due to the fact that most people start HEMA much later in life, and often without much of an athletic background. TBF, any great athlete can go into HEMA do very well, even if they're not combat sports athletes. I think hockey players would do very well. If you can handle a stick while on ice with knives on your feet while people are trying to body check you, handling a longsword with good footing should be fairly simple in contrast. Absolutely most HEMA clubs do not spend enough time on footwork or conditioning. I do have one counterpoint: While the hand-foot dissociation may be beneficial for some disciplines, for older styles it might be detrimental and need to be de-trained a bit. With weapons like longsword, the connection between the fencer's core and the weapon is very important and can't be stressed enough. And sport fencers are not typically used to the grappling part of swordfighting, and would need to be brought up to speed. Will all that TLDR I just wrote, remember that HEMA is more than just swords. There's grappling, dagger, staff, spear, pugilism, poleaxe, and so on.
I just want to say that you look so much like Foconi. The similarities is insane. Both very handsome men and great video!
(10:59) Oh, it is like the Princess Bride. Inigo Montoya entered this state after taking a knife to the gut.
having sport fenced for 20+ years and now doing HEMA the footwork from all those days made me pretty good.. but lateral movements was hard to get used to since in sport fencing is so linear while in say Italian or Spanish rapier they move all over the place. Distance judgement as huge as well but maybe the most important part was simple point control. Coming from foil all those years you can hit a dime on a string with so much practice. I stepped into HEMA from Sport Fencing and like you say 'Right of Way' kind of screwed me before I got over it. In HEMA I would get a lot of double kills .. where in sport fencing I would have to the point It would count as both killed.. since.. yes it actually is. If I attack and get a touch first but just what .. a few milliseconds before you also hit me.. we're both wounded. I think the HEMA thing makes you more defensive but I can say that I had so many years of fun Sport fencing and if I had any opportunity i'd still do it.. but the HEMA/SCA fencing is just as much fun but a bit different and probably more realistic . It's all good love sword fighting !
I do HEMA because I think it’s just higher stakes and more realistic than Olympic fencing
These days I do kendo, I used to train sabre and foil. These things are obviously not combat simulations, but they are training methods handed down by actual historical fencing masters.
The historical aesthetic fencing community could benefit from understanding situations where winning is the only thing that matters.
I am also so very sick of hearing about "the battlefield", no one stopped to fence on battlefields.
I mean not everything sword related is designed around bar brawls like people thing. Olympic fencing is "realistic" cause it works within the conditions established to it.
Period
No need to defend olympic fencing. After all, neither HEMA nor OF are realistic: we do not fight with swords anymore. They are a historical relic, and you can chose to pick any rules that make you happy or your sport more popular. Discussions of realism, however, are absolutely crucial for hand to hand combat and combat with firearms (and perhaps with knives).
perhaps its just really fast paced and hard to view what's always going on when watching on tv. maybe adding some color to the foil so it sticks out more against the background would help a bit. I know they did that for hockey back in the day on tv. they added a bright spot around the puck so your eyes could track it with the grainy-ness of old tvs. Tennis made the balls bright yellow against a brown clay, blue grass or green grass so its better for people viewing the sport. Its really easy to just lose track of that foil as it blurs around the screen.
Hema is shaped by rules systems more than people would like to think, despite more accurate weapons and techniques being used.
Funny enough, in sport fencing I only ever got good tournament results by abusing people's expectations around right of way, while hema is desperately trying to implement rules to prevent doubles that are totally not right of way but almost.
Lower level foil fencers tend to assume that defender can only counter attack after a successful parry so they just chase forward and try to avoid their blade getting slapped. Which lead to me stabbing them straight up from retreat the moment they put their point out of line. Trainers laughing, opponents stunned and confused as they get defeated by a cheeky but inferior fencer.
Meanwhile low level hema people tend to go for attack too hard and constantly stand just outside of reach and do blade bind tricks instead of just making better footwork, which ends with tons of doubles. As suddenly shortened distance inevitably leads to too many openings.
The moment you give people sharp blades, their style does not even remotely resemble tournament play since every movement suddenly becomes much more cautious and testing the waters before committing. Rules ate everything but can highlight aspects you cant get otherwise
I broadly agree with most of what you say. However, having done both olympic fencing and HEMA, I cannot stress how much the weapon plays in. I think epee and foil are highly applicable to smallsword and similar weapons, and I would NOT want to face an olympic level foil fencer in a small sword duel. They could pick one up and use it no problem. A sabre fencer, however, would definitely need a long transition time to learn to use a military sabre, because those things are quite heavy and handle very differently. Olympic techniques would lead to broken wrists.
I do disagree with the side-stepping. Again, it’s highly weapon dependent. With a smallsword/epèe/etc, sidestepping is indeed not that useful compared to back stepping. With a cut-and-thrust weapon, however, sidestepping is massively useful, since it makes parries far safer, allows different angles of attack, and can be very disorienting on an opponent. (Seriously, having an opponent circle you forces you to constantly move and prepare for something, without leaving openings or giving space. It’s so stressful)
In fence of defencing