Are Gearbox Bikes The Future Of Mountain Biking? | Advantages, Drawbacks, and Future Possibilities
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- The latest mountain bikes are crammed with great technology, but let's face it the Achilles heel for many of us is the derailleur which hangs off the back of the bike in rock bashing territory! Some brands are now using gearboxes for their larger travel bikes. Doddy visits Starling Cycles in Bristol, England to find out why they are now choosing to spec them and their advantages and disadvantages.
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I appreciate the honesty of this guy from Starling bikes. For once, someone who is not just saying everything is the best on his bike.
It’s great to hear that there are still people starting their businesses in a shed. 8)
Sheds are so underrated 😅
Garages took over 😋
Maybe the next wave of lock downs will take care of that.
@@gophop update a half hour ago about some new African variant. It’s never gonna end we’re just gonna have to reach a point where we say fk it and go back to life 🤷🏼♂️
Another advantage of gearboxes they didn't talked about: The rear wheel becomes fully symmetrical; the spokes on both sides get the same angle between rims and hub since a singlespeed hub with a single sprocket is mounted, which needs much less space than a casseette with 10 - 12 sprockets :-)
Symmetrical spoked wheels can whithstand the same (high) force from all directions.
I was going to say that.......👍
You get that with a Rohloff as well, but then you have a lot of weight in the back wheel.
Have never read that is a problem. Is that a problem ?
@@ohwell2790
Let's say it's a weak spot singlespeeders don't have.
@@ohwell2790 With a dished wheel, alternate spokes take a lot more force as they are not pulling evenly with the other spokes.
This was probably the most interesting video so far by gmbn tech, well done! I really want to see more of niche brands doing things the big brands are too cautious to do. New color handgrips and a fifth compound in the tires is nice to see as well but it’s people like this who will start the big changes in the industry. More videos like this please!
Couldn't agree more, most interesting video GMBN has put out in sometime. 10/10
@@superspecky4eyes yelh
@@superspecky4eyes yelh
Its because that brand is awesome. Like orange back in the day or Pace. Its of its time and it will denote the history of bikes.
One bash on a rock thru that aluminum and all the oil gone on the rear tire. It will need a bash plate all adding to the weight. I like the idea for very long distance ridding in all weather conditions, but down hill and racing maybe not.
It would have been cool seeing Doddy do a quick test run of the bike
@Andrew Dodd Sweet!
@Andrew Dodd Looking forward to seeing that head to head.
I'm very much looking forward to hearing Doddy's opinion. In the meantime, The Loam Wolf has also taken it for a spin, and they've got a review up online. It's an informative read, and if anything has made me want one even more.
I own the Zerode Katipo and love having a gearbox; less maintenance, and the ability to change gears without pedaling is awesome. The founder made his own in-house gearboxes ages ago and decided to setting on the German made Pinion. I only ride up hill to go down so I'm OK not being the first to the top.
can you pm me.
@@martylondon6729 Done
All I hear is good things about these systems over the years and finally decided it's time to have a custom built bike made for one of these.
@@buckroger6456 cool. I spent over a year trying to get my fox 36 Factory fork to behave. I have just got the lowers, damper and air spring back from Shockcraft in NZ and will be putting it back together soon. It had excess grease and they said the damper was oddly different to what they typically find. They burnished the bushings and through on a luftkappe. Dyno tunes came back near linear. My suggestion, if your getting a fox fork just pay the extra tiny amount straight away to have it tuned by a local suspension expert.
@@duncan-mcrae good tip. I'm actually looking at a 130mm travel pike for this build. It's going to be a do it all hardtail that I can use for bike packing as well. Going for a titanium build and with custom geo numbers.
I really want to ride a gearbox bike now! goes to show that most modern bike components came from the world of cars and motorbikes just like disc brakes and suspension forks
Well said my man!👏👏👏👏
How new are you?
Its just bike companies are consistent on selling the crap out of outdated technologies when much better ones exist and people are stupid enough to buy it. People legit buy think a 5000 dollar bike is normal. The industry is toxic
I really hope that gearboxes become the future of mountain biking, as what we have now seems very antiquated and can easily be damaged....plus all the cleaning and maintenance required really sucks.
Dont forget extra weight, loss of eficiency n complexity of the geared system as negatives.
My Rohloff shifting just broke and I’ve been riding a single speed hub until parts arrive from Europe. Not sure if I’ll switch back to the Rohloff anytime soon, it’s noticeably less efficient, more “clunky” than the SS, and almost impossible to service. This failure put a bad taste in my mouth, I don’t like proprietary “black boxes” on my bike. I can rebuild a freehub and derailleur system with my eyes closed, but I have no access to the guts of a Rohloff.
@@ClockworksOfGL Are you comparing an electronic shifter system to a mechanical gearbox? I am a bit confused by what you are trying to convey here.
@@creesch - The mechanical shifting of my Rohloff is controlled (internally) by a short loop of cable wound around a small bronze drum. That cable broke after about 1.5 year of use and I’m waiting for a replacement to arrive from England. I still love the concept of internal gearing, but I don’t like Rohloff’s execution so much. Bikes should be inherently simple, user serviceable, not so propriety you can’t fix in a reasonably equipped bike shop.
@@ClockworksOfGL ah gotcha, to be honest I think a lot of that would change for the better when gearboxes become more mainstream. Derailleurs and such are also proprietary in many ways but are easy to service as they are so widespread so parts are easy to come by. But even there it really depends on the brand and what part of the world you are in. For example, SRAM and Shimano parts are widely available here, BOX parts less so.
This company really hates derailleurs, I like it. 😄
derailleurs is expensive😅
They hate derailleurs? Have you checked their website? Out of the nine models they sell, only one has the gearbox. Seven models have derailleurs.
Wow! This was really awesome, thank you for choosing a small company like Starling to give us such a great insight on this topic. I found the whole video super interesting 🤩
I for one cannot wait for gearboxes on mountain bikes to become standard. The technology and weight issues are almost resolved and we are almost there.
I’ve met Joe from Starling a few times and he’s a great bloke. As someone who breaks rear mechs, I can definitely see benefits of going to gearboxes
Great episode, thankyou.
The boss of that company - cool dude.
Intelligent, articulate, good in front of the camera, explains and understands stuff for us mere mortals.
I wish him and his company the best of luck and success.
I'll buy you a pint!!
A visit to Allen Millyard would make a very cool episode.
Thank you, I was looking for his name, it seems that Allen has solved problems that commercial companies still haven't figured out.
Yesss 😂 was gonna say he was miles ahead of the game with gearboxes
There's not much that guy can't do, I watched his video on the bike he built for his son, very clever.
Yes, as soon as he said "gearbox", I thought of Allen Millyard and the down hill racer he built. Along with the internal chain.
Indeed Allen is a genius at designing and fabricating most anything on two wheels.
Riding a Rohloff for a year. I don't want to make an impression that is solves all pains of the world, but it is SO nice piece of equipment. Of course there are drawbacks, often mentioned weight, but riding a 25kg machine that is barely noticable on paper, letting alone real experience. but main thing is:
You can't put a pricetag on ability to shift while stationary. That is just a dream come true...
While all of us are different and have different riding styles, I can't remember the last time I needed to shift while stationary in normal riding or where starting off in the wrong gear was significant.
@@grahamogle6332 That is exactly thing of different riding styles and ENVIROMENTS. I don't want to advertise it here too much, but check out my vids. You can spot several occassions of such shifting and at least one rapid downshift when I underestimated uphill and was unable to push enough with current gear...
More content like these please! Small builders with creative bike builds is really inspiring to see. I can see Doddy's enthusiasm too.
Zerode, Pinion gearbox. Belt drive. Love gearbox bikes.
I got mine no more than 6 months before the belt was an option. It is the same price new, but a fair chunk extra if you get chain and change your mind. It requires a new carbon chain stay.
I think Doddy stumbled on the solution there, namely introducing gearboxes via E-bikes. Then you won't feel the drag and those engines and batteries just keep getting stronger. If gearboxes became a mainstay for e-bikes then I think the transfer over to enduros is smaller and like that it probably will trickle down through trail and maybe even xc eventually.
This
I’m sure it will have been looked into. As Doddy said, if/when the £ signs align they’ll pull the trigger.
Rohloff hub gearbox with belt is now trending by RieseMuller and others, in a perfect world the electric motor would have a gearbox too,
It’s already done…motorbikes have used geared transmissions for a long time. e-bikes are motorbikes.
@@SimulatorBoss true, indeed..
Gear box would be ideal for electric bike. Engine makes up for little friction and this makes it easier to use heavier chain that would last with engine. And it could be build straight in to the engine.
Could be quite a challenge to fit all the motor and electrics as well as a fairly substantial gearbox all around the bb and downtube.
Yes as i commented, this system is a motorbike-like system
@@zensmylie5393 gearbox n motor should be one compenetrated thing
Shimano is making a gearbox for the rear hub, I think. Combo that with a motor?
@kayakutah Are you talking about a hub gear? If so this is a different thing to a “gearbox” and has been used for quite sometime
I'm done with derailleurs. I have ordered a Zerode Katipo with the Pinion 12 speed gearbox and Gates Carbon Belt drive. Less maintenance and less touchy. So many good rides tainted by gears going out of tune. Once the bank account has recovered I'll replace the enduro hardtail too!
Speaking to the efficiency issue, it is 100% true that chain is more efficient...when it is straight, clean and well oiled. When the chain line is all crossed up, the chain is caked in mud and tar or running low on lube a well worn in gearbox is more efficient. #askGMBNTech Could you do a deep dive into the science of driveline efficiency as a follow up to this video. I think people will be surprised.
I got one last year, its awesome, careful that the belt doesn't get kinked, mine got beat up in shipping and the belt broke on the 2nd ride, but they were good for it.
@Andrew Dodd Awesome! Can't wait 🤙
Go back to a 2x with better chain lines, use wax lubes, and your issues are solved. I used to ride XC in backcountry Alaska and I never had any issues.
You won’t regret the Katipo. Shortly after getting mine I realized I absolutely hated derailleurs…. 8 speed, 9 speed, 10 speed, 11 speed, microspline, XD, blah blah blah. No more. Done. Click, click there’s 9 damn gears and done.
@@keirfarnum6811 Yeah my 2x10 deals with mud much better than 1x11. The once mud gets on the narrow wide chainring it gets much noisier and can feel there's extra friction.
More small builder interviews!
This was fascinating to me, thank you.
I'm seriously thinking of becoming an engineer solely because I want to help develop this technology to perfection. Maybe I am too ambitious as a high-schooler but I feel like I'd enjoy working on this
always keep following your dreams ;)
@@Simon-nx1sc thank you man :) we need more people to encourage living like that.
100% become an engineer and think outside the box about big problems. As an engineer, I can tell you that high school is not too early at all to have big ambitions like that.
@@cedriceveleigh I appreciate you man. I am sure my end goals or ambitions are to be some sort of designer, innovator, improver, creator, engineer and so on. I just need to get through highschool as good as I can because some ways of teaching are simply stupid and boring imo but what can I do. It's on me to grind and score
@@cedriceveleigh
As someone else mentioned before me, PLEASE go visit with Allen Millyard and check out the downhill bikes he made for his son... true genius at work. For GMBN to do a video spotlighting Allen would bring so many people joy... not just for what and how he created those downhill bikes but the rest of his restoration and mods he does to motorcycles, all in his back yard sheds!
I worked for Serrotta Bikes, Upstate NY, USA, a few years ago. Greg LeMond once rode a bike we made, the pride we achieved is immeasurable.
Currently I use a Shimano Alfine SG700 11 speed gear hub. It works effortless, but adds considerable & noticeable weight to the rear wheel. My hub is an add on so it suffers from not incorporating it into the weight geometry, a benefit if designed w/hub from the ground up.
Expensive, but the luxury is worth it.
I think enclosed gears are the future of bicycles. I like the complexities simplified, no more dangling stuff.
Zerode Taniwha , next level , can't wait for motor integrated into the spinny bits and belt drive with stainless cogs .
Dont forget Zerode is a great Kiwi brand as well.
@@ryanmiddlemass2395 That was one of the reasons I bought one. Support Local. The founder lives about 45min drive away from me. I test rode his personal pre-production paint in the Redwoods and was sold.
Brilliant video. Def one of the most interesting for me. Really like your approach Doddy by highlighting (asking) pros and cons in a pragmatic and realistic application manner. Thank you
Fed up with how muddy my county is, gearbox is the logical choice for me.
The choice is so limited to the point of thinking I'll have to make one myself
so great to see starling doing something clever and well thought-out
Still a little worried about drag for trail/XC
It has positives n negatives
I bought a bike with a Sram XO1 chain on it a couple years ago. It costs about 3 times as much as a normal chain. But Wow! Total came changer. Little to no chain stretch indicated. Up until that point I had been running Shimano XT and FSA stuff that stretched if you breathed on it. I think the key to longevity with some of this stuff is not to skimp.
It’s a beautiful thing to see when we “finally” have a variety of drive trains on the market, and more coming in the future. It’s a great time to be into biking in general.
Getting rid of the derailleur and using this for downhill only sounds like a great idea. Cons: Price and drag in the gearbox. I'd have to see more.
It‘s so nice to hear a proper engineer talk about all the gibberish the bike industry tries to sell the consumer as a „must have“. He doesn‘t roast anybody, just states what‘s worth doing and what‘s not.
I love the idea of a gearbox bike and absolutely think they’re the future, I’ve always thought derailleurs were a bit of a clumsy and problematic solution. For trail bikes we’ll definitely need 10 gears and less drag though.
it is really hard to find someone this honest,
this guy is legit!!!
I think gearbox bikes are the future of DH and Enduro. The high pivot trend will naturally shift to gearboxes, with the output taking the place of the current idler wheel.
probably be the future of all bike systems hopefully. the derailleur system is just so bad
@@Metalshark100 derailleurs are so efficient, gearboxes just can't compete. The 8nly exception is maintenance, if your race is long enough in nasty enough conditions it could tip the scales but that would be very extreme edge case
@@galenkehler they're just very fragile, easily broken or bent. the maintenance like you said but also when something goes wrong with grinding or chain skipping its another thing to check and make sure its working correctly. i'd be fine with it if it didn't share so many problems with drive train issues. atm trying to figure out whats wrong with a bike i got preowned from someone else as it skips and grinds only on the lowest/hardest cog. doesn't make sense
@@Metalshark100 I've been racing an riding for 20 years and never had any problem with derailleurs like you mention, and given their prevalence in the world, if they actually had those problems then other people would have problems too.
You've just got a bad one.
Galen Kehler I agree. Been riding MTB for over 30 years and never broken a rear mech. Plenty of rock strikes and bent mech hangers, but the hanger is a sacrificial part. On a ride carry a spare, swap it out, and you are back in the game. The sprockets do wear but again are easily and cheaply replaced. Tension spring fatigue is the only reason I have ever had to replace a rear mech. All that said, ebikes and internal gears (gearbox) frame mounted does seem an elegant match to my eyes!
An Englishman in his shed. An unstoppable force of pottering about. No problem is unsolvable. Brilliant 👍
Another new Zerode Katipo owner here… gotta say that Starling was interesting and the eccentric drive is probably ideal for swingarm pivot co-location, but if you’re looking for a fully developed gearbox bike Zerode is it. The Katipo fits right in with Yetis and Santa Cruz bikes in terms of build quality. Concerning the drag, well… it’s reduced noticeably in just a few hundred miles. There is zero drag in gears 1-3 and barely noticeable in 4-6. Drag is probably 10-20 watts in 7-9, but who cares about drag bombing downhill? 576% range is also kinda fun! Belt drive, twist shifting, and power pausing seem to agree with me as my tech climbing ability has definitely improved. No more bent shifters either. Taking nothing from Starling, Zerode is just a way more polished machine and rides incredibly well - at 34# with aluminum wheels. The Kitsuma full lock out shock also makes long climbs feel like you’re on a gravel bike. It was really expensive, but no regrets yet… let’s see how things hold up! If you ever get the crew to Bentonville, Doddy, you can try it yourself ;-)
Never heard of Zerode, thought it would like a turd, but it actually looks amazing. Problem I have it with it, is that it kinda looks like an E-bike, I would hate to have people thinking you're on an E-bike.
I started following Starling cycles as soon as he build the first Murmur. Beautyful bikes, modern geometry and classic looks. This video and the opinions about gearboxes are a big step forward. I'm looking for a new enduro frame and I don't want a derailleur anymore, I'm sick of smashing it, adjusting it every week, having problems with chain line... it will be a gamechanger!
As others have said, gearboxes are already a great option for trekking, but derailleurs are still better for performance bikes, and probably will be for a long time. The fact that with a derailleur you can mash up the cassette if you need to is a very useful feature.
I remember seeing things about gearboxes back in the mid/late 90's, so great to see looks like the way forward, would love one of their bikes, seems such a nice and genuine guy. Great video - more of the same please guys great work!
Kudos to Starling bikes for being progressive and making these bikes.
Said it a few times but will say it again: gearboxes are the logical future.
Actually I’m pretty pissed at mainstream manufacturers for holding the industry back instead of putting more effort into this technology.
The last insult was the electronic shifter. That’s the epitome of putting a lipstick on a pig.😡
What’s next? A nuclear powered shovel handle?
How many 8 hour long rides have you done in the backcountry of places like Alaska? The way bikes work now has continued because of their simplicity and the ability to work on them easily. Having a gear box might be great for someone who mostly likes descending on established trails or at ski areas; but for true backcountry XC, riders want something they can repair easily. Maybe when gear boxes are more reliable and repairable, that might change.
Well, I'm a road biker, but I must say I love my Di2. Regarding the gear box, for the road even 1% of drag would never be accepted, and I believe that here we're talking more about 5% of drag. I doubt that this is acceptable for any more than downhill and real artistic stuff also in mountain biking, like they say in the video. I do think that this can be overcome to a degree by development, but maybe not to the extent to be acceptable in elite road racing.
@@keirfarnum6811 Pal, I have no idea in what universe me doing an Alaskan backcountry ride have to do with to be able to see what’s better between gear boxes or derailleurs but I see you know absolutely fuck all about gearboxes.
They’re require virtually no maintenance. They are much, much more reliable than derailleurs.
But you know what? Listen to Ryan Van Duzer or the Cyclingabout channel in the subject.
It’s the same argument like carburetors vs. injectors. People who refuse to look into the subject talk the same stupid shit: “carbs are easier to maintain, what if I have to repair it”, etc., meanwhile countless people completed extreme rides in extreme conditions completing tens of thousands of miles without any problems with their injectors. Why? Because it’s better. No moving parts for starters.
Anyway, you don’t have to repair a gearbox because it’s simpler than the conventional technology and much more durable. I can’t imagine a scenario when a gearbox would need a field repair, unless you fell off a cliff and crack the case open, but in that case you’d require more repair than your gearbox.
They’re prolly just milkin’ it. Every part on these bikes have a marketable lifespan. When electric shifters become old news, Sram and Specialized will debut some ‘amazing’ $15,000 S-Works whatever with a gearbox and then all of the sheeple will then need to have one. Follow the money.
@@kanon0853 I completely agree with you, they probably sell 10 times more groupsets, chains, derailleurs and what not with a lot more margin then they would with a gearbox with less margin due to the high cost price and where they would sell only once or twice per consumer.
Although I could see an interesting idea of integrating it with an e-bike where drag is less of an issue.
They have been the future for 10 years but the big brands won't build their bikes with them as a option. This is why I'm going for a custom built bike so I can finally get one.
Too bad he didn't offer you a prototype test drive, but then, he probably has seen what you do to bikes. For me, I don't mind some loss of efficiency as long as it saves me the trouble of keeping the rear cluster and derailleur clean. If you get a chance, test a similar build during weather which the isles are known for.
When GMBN upload 3 video at same time, you don't have a choice to see blake first 🤣🤣
Same
I think internal gear hub 7-9 speed is the future, with potential e-bike drive.
When paired with an e-bike motor I do think that's definitely a better solution than the current derailleur system. That said, for "standard" mtbs I don't think hub gearboxes are the future, as one of the other significant advantages of gearboxes on full suspension bikes (especially longer travel full-sus) is the massive reduction in unsprung weight on the rear wheel.
My favourite bike is a Shimano Alfine hub gearbox with a gates belt drive... the belt drive is a whole other level of convenience... no maintenance of the chain (this Starling bike still needs the chain cleaned, lubed etc...), carbon belts lasts thousands of km's... the are clean and quiet... can just be hosed off, and don't rust or stretch... a Carbon Belt drive would really bring this bike into the 21st Century...
they need to make the gears ceramic. Would reduce the drag and weight massively.
Would also increase initial cost by a fair bit too though
Seeing gmbn repping a single pivot is nice to see. I ride an Orange and the internet hates them!
My next bike will have a gearbox. The friction in the system does not put me off the product one bit in fact if anything it would make the old pistons get a little stronger. The only downside I would say is the initial outlay being so expensive.
A bicycle was created to be a simple machine. Over decades it has got more complex, example ebikes. If you carry on soon it wont be a bicycle anymore.
Here for the tune from 0:22-0:41. Appreciate it! Good content btw!
Joe and Doddy could talk passionate about bikes for weeks. Here's the first episode if a new series 😉
- "Did he make the dogs bollocks?
-"No, he made the donkeys knob 😂😂😂
I think Dave Hemming raced a rigid dogs bollocks in the early 90s in down hill races before suspension started to work. I hope I haven't made that up, I'll have to go and dust of the older copies of MBUK now!
probably be a gravel bike now :)
The Starling Spur looks fantastic! I'd love to ride a gearbox mountain bike, unfortunately where I live it needs to be an efficient trail bike. Can't wait for a light & agile gearbox option becoming a reality.
I've recently purchased a bike with Rohloff hub and carbon belt drive. It's the first non chain / Derailleur bike I've ridden. I really like how it works and the even gear ratios are great . I don't know if I'd really want to buy traditional set up again. I'd certainly look at gearbox bikes as well if they become more available.
i've been riding a pinion on my commuter bike. it does have a slight bit of drag and shifting does take some getting used to, but it's an unbelievable system. it's rock solid and quiet and so far has absolutely no issues with weather. the way i think about it is like, would you buy a cheap car if it had an exposed drivetrain and rim brakes? hell no, even if i have to pay 3 times as much to get something that's actually reliable.
14:00 He's talking about pre-shifting. In 1963, I took a 10-speed derailleur bike and adapted a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub to it so that I could get maximum gearing range for bombing around up & down the Santa Cruz Mountains. It was a 30-speed bike. No bikes had anywhere near the range back then. The 3-speed had 178% range, and my derailleur gears were 52-42 front with 24-11 rear for 271% derailleur range; the composite range being 178% times 271%, which was *482%!* Perfect! I could fine-tune the ratio until I hit the bottom or top of a hill when I could make a big ratio jump instantly without fooling with those crappy, cantankerous derailleur shifts! [The *best* derailleurs back then needed constant tweaking while riding.]
Anyway, the 3-speed hub could be pre-shifted from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd from the gear lever on the handlebars, and would actually only change ratio when I stopped pedaling for a few milliseconds; it was *quick!* It turned out to be very handy in drag-races with other cyclists at stop-lights in the city! I'd start off in 1st & pre-shift thru 2nd and then 3rd, so when my cadence got too high (about 140 rpm), I'd naturally 'hiccup' and go into the next gear instantly! It was like having a really good automatic transmission on my bike! Meanwhile, my competition would be left in the dust, fumbling with their crappy derailleurs!
I liked that setup so much that I've kept that system ever since thru multiple upgrades on 3 or four bikes. I still have my custom-built Schwinn Paramount that I bought new in 1967 (when they were built like fine European racers), and currently have 81 speeds with 990% range on it, and it works like a fine watch for pulling stumps and pedaling downhill at 100 kph!
Unfortunately, I'm now too old to put that bike & its amazing gears thru their paces...
I know nothing about bikes but know this is badass!
You should make a video about it. Seems like a sweet idea with a bike with some history.
Did you have a ride on the gearboxed spur Doddy ? .love the look of the starling bikes .steel ain't dead !and you still need to ride the millyard bike
Honda did something similar but utilized a typical chain drive system(though you could shift without pedalling). Glad to hear someone is pursuing a similar concept!
Gearbox is the only tech I've been excited about since suspension got sorted. Bring it on!
Nobody heard of Allen Millyard? His homebuilt gearbox mtbs are waaayyy beyond this and he built them years ago.
Thank you - i was looking for a comment about the genius Allen Millyard
I totally agree with everything in this video concerning gearbox bikes. Well done! I don't think the ease of maintenance can be overstated enough, I haven't done anything to my gearbox bike over 12 months of riding (haven't hit the 500 mile break in period for changing the oil yet). Coil fork, coil shock, gates belt drive, gearbox...literally just check the tire pressure and go.
I can't unsee all the pedal strikes that will happen
Having owned Rolhoff 14 speed hub friction is a downside although there are many advantages.
And the Rohloff has planet gears, not standing gears like most gearboxes do, which on paper should have less drag iirc. I've ridden Pinion compared to Rohloff back to back and you notice a difference between those two in terms of efficiency. Both belt driven, same manufacturer and model so pretty much as close as the comparison can go. BUT I'd still like to see some chain driven gearboxes in the future (:
Plus weight n complexity as downsides
@@Phonophobia Of the two, which did you find more efficient, the Pinion or the Rohloff. I have had a Rohloff for over ten years with no problems at all (hardtail and now fully). There is also the Kindernay XIV 14 speed hub. I have read that Nicolai are also developing a gearbox.
I love what he says about a carbon fiber frames being lower end comparing to the real carbon fiber constructions he mentioned in aerocraft industry. Says a lot.
Nice to see inside the smaller bike companies, especially UK based ones
Cant wait to try my porche inspired pinion gearbox out! Thanks priority... The location of the outer cog would be fun jamming downhill!
If the seat tube was mounted more vertical to have center pivot but move primary sprocket in line with chain stay and do a mild bend back for the correct seat post angle I think it would be much better. More more ground clearance and less likely to damage gear box. Would also if bend point is just past the top tube weld could possibly be some amount of frame shock absorption.
Also I think this set up especially with single pivot would work amazing for a belt drive.
Years ago back in the 70's you HAD 3 speed gear boxes on bikes. Most girl bikes and touring bikes had the 3 speed gearbox built into the rear wheel, whereas guys bikes had 5 to 10 speeds which was too many for a built in gearbox in the size of the hubs made at that time.
If I am going downhill on my XC bike and want to dump a load of gears I'll use my front derailleur...But I'm not the target market and it'll be a very long time before it's efficient and light enough for XC. It's really good to see this innovation, sure gearboxes will find their place.
Such an interesting video! I love to see small bike makers, making works of art!
It would've been more interesting if Dodd had taken a test ride. But anyway i like it a lot. Welldone GMBN
The type of builder that has strong mechanistic preferences, has design character and puts real soul into their bikes. The heavy pie plates for 11x1/12x1 setups have never made evolutionary sense to me on a full susp frame. I still use a lighter 11-34 3x9 and get a wider range with better chain lines. With the gearbox, moving more of the weight to the cg area/losing unsprung weight can only make the EXT shock work even better.
I love my pinion gear box on my hybrid bike.
That was a really interesting video. Good luck to Starling Cycles!
I really love steel frames. I own a benest dh frame and this frames reminds so much on these🔥
Have you tried a titanium frame?
If you are wondering what is the name of the gearbox they are talking about, it is "effigear"
mix of old and new ideas .I remember seeing some thing like that as a kid.
been waiting for this video a while now nice
Me too
@@th_js same
Same
I'm thinking of putting on a hub gearbox on my kona with a bafung mid drive motor as it seems the perfect solution to chain and all the rest of the drive components needing constant servicing to keep it going. I know Bosch are looking into gearboxes for their motors so they're definitely coming to market in a big way for electric bikes where drag is something electric bikers know all about!
love when you guys and gcn do small bike builders great stuff
I had an SWD for a very short time. It was part of the first batch after Steven's death that were basically DH bikes with XC geometry. So I made a new chromoly front end for it. Then I got hold of a second gen Santa Cruz Bullit swing arm which happened to have almost exactly the same geometry and adapted that. 26" wheels, 9.5" travel and long and slack before it got popular.
when i was a kid, that's the only kind of shifters there were
As a car and motorcycle guy i would love to spend the dough on one of these!!
So interesting! I think i should research on this for my recumbent project...
Request for Starling bicycles. Please make a plus tires bikepacking bicycle with an internal gear hub with massive gear range that would allow it to climb steep mountains and ride at the highest speeds (30+ mph) on paved road. Please make the gear steps very small so the cadence does not change much between gears. And give it lots of gears, at least 18 like in Pinion P1.18.
Lovely to see hand built bikes still being made in Britain. Good luck to Starling.
Riding my Nicolai Pinion for 9 years now. I clean it a handfull of times a year and it just works. I changed the chain once. Yes, sometimes I wish it to be lighter but the build is more on the the enduro side with 160/180 travel and 2.4 tyres accumulating it to 16kg.
Did Megavalanche with it and also do 500-800 in elevation on my standard rides with it.
I do have to admit though, that even though that the new 1x11/12 drives are also very good with regards to shifting (gone are the 3xXX days) and I am not sure if gearboxes will become mainstream. A sub 15kg all-mountain geabox bike would be awesome.
Every time i'm cleaning and lubing my chain, and counting the rides to replace the chain or even the cassette again, i tell myself my next bike will be with an internal gearbox and belt drive. But still, that little extra drag is a bit too much for my taste, i love riding uphill, but don't want to turn flats into uphills :D
As much as I love the less maintenance and pedalless gear change they feature on the gearbox bike, his emphasis on the drag ans his statement of it to be more for dh bikes makes me wanna test it first before committing cause uphills are hell but fun for exercise 😂😁👌
@@rnyll Exactly! One thing i'm thinking about, is a "floating"' chainring. That would solve the huge "crosschaining" on 12speed systems.
Everybody talks about the „drag“ of the system. I Switched from a Cube Stereo 140 (14.5kg) with 12spd X01 to the Zerode Taniwha with a Pinion 12spd and Carbon Belt Drive (15.5kg). Not sure if I can tell the difference on a 40-50km ride with about 1000-1500hm. For an Enduro it’s perfectly fine but also I have to say that on the Hardtail I probably stick to a derailleur because of weight and tours over 100km….
@@_demerl_4855 Glad to hear your opinion! Personally had only owned hardtails though would love to own an Enduro bike soon, and with a gearbox at that if it becomes more mainstream in the future :D
Probably some of the best looking bikes I have seen
Great discussion. I really wanted gearbox bikes to take over. But I think the loss of efficiency and additional freewheel mechanism reducing pickup is just too much. Regardless of all the drawbacks of derailleur gears, that direct chain drive to the rear wheel is so efficient, anything less feels your effort is being wasted. It's a shame. I really agreed with Starling's view that they won't be suitable for XC or trail bikes. I'm still hoping for a breakthrough though! 🤞
I think 3 gears with a wide spread would be enough tbh. Once gravity takes over you’re not peddling much anyway. Also the pivot point is more like a motor cycle setup so will feel mega. Want one.
As a downhiller and rock climber I absolutely hate derailleurs
Really enjoyed this video,
Not 100% sold on gearbox bikes,
The deal breaker being the need to reduce load on the pedals to shift gears,
Found this to be annoying and always caught me out on segments id easily clear on a derailleur bike.
Despite this, i would love to try the reduced sprung mass element of this out!
Thanks again!
i use shimano alfine rear hub since 2012. works good but more weight and slightly more powerloss in the drivetrain. pinion gear box seems nice. it works similar to the one in the video, but you need special frame. and there is still the problem with weight, efficiency and cost.
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The Gear box advantage it can give you a lift, it gives muscle when torque is needed going up hill or with heavy load just like the principle of a hand drill it has a gear box drive
I suspect hard composite plastic tapered gears could avoid the oil friction issue. Only issues is that gears become more consumable over time...but convert the gearbox to a cassette type for easy switch as well as adjustable gearbox feature for courses of varying conditions...
Love the feel of the old school tinkering And new gizmos
I already wanted a Starling Bike. Now I really, really want a Starling Bike.
I own a Tout Terrain Metropolitan with a Rohloff hub and Gates Carbon Drive. I expect to receive my new Tout Terrain Outback Xplore with a Pinion C.12 gearbox and belt drive in a month or so. I no longer look at derailleurs or chains. I just can’t imagine going back(wards).
I love the idea of NOT having a rear derailleur. Broke enough of them! Pain in the arse and costly. I like the gear box idea a lot.
EMountain bikes with Gearboxes already exist ..!! Ries & Muller Delight Off Road with Rollhof Too many gears BUT it is available and has UK dealer network........I should know I have one on order...3 months delivery though.. Hang the kids inheritance!
BUT I would have loved it to be made in UK.