Another advantage of having no cassette at the back is you can have the hub flanges wider apart and build a much stronger wheel for virtually the same weight.
@@uncleputes But braking the rim with that has much larger diameter and is "already there" kinda makes more sense in principle. I need to look into hydraulic rim brakes now. :)
@@dzidmail And how well are they gonna work when riding through mud? I can take a guess it's a little worse than discs...There's a reason motorcycles use disc brakes these days
@@uncleputes (I found my old rim brakes to worked better in wet. Depends on compound.) With snow there were issues. And yeah, with mud though, they eat up through rims faster. :( I managed to forgot about that over the years. And also the fact that any rim wobble is a total pain. Being in hot climate now, I would like to give it another try with rear suspension, but in practice it's unlikely to find a frame with the mounts.
Built my own custom titanium hardtail with a pinion gearbox and belt drive, and 3D printed an electronic shifter for it. It was weird getting back to a derailleur when I travelled to a local island without my bike, and the zero maintenance drivetrain has been magnificent - I’ve not washed my bike in over 1000km (whoops)
Doddy is a great host. The detailed explanation of the difference in feel of the bikes is exactly the kind of thing I want to hear if I’m deciding on a purchase.
@@04Serena Isn't it frustrating dealing with terrible drivers, and the danger they place you in? I ride a motorcycle, drive a commercial truck and enjoy mountain bikes, so I always give road bikes their space even if non are present to me.
The remarks about added friction should be relativized. A gearbox has more friction than a clean straight derailleur chain line. But as soon as your chain line is not straight or dirty, the difference gets a lot smaller. In my experience, the added friction is mostly in between the ears, because it feels and sounds different.
@@juhao81 Yes but no. ;) Off course, the chain gets dirty as well on a gearbox bike, but because of the straight chain line and no derailleur, a lot less dirt gets into the chain itself. Also, a single speed chain without a tensioner is a lot more ‘self-cleaning’, because the sprockets (with higher teeth and more clearance around them) push all the dirt out of the chain links. Therefore a lot less friction in real life.
... and that is original Effigear box. They have now smaller and lighter version called Mimic. I'm really looking forward to what they will be able to achieve in the nearest future... Cheers! I.
Horses for courses. Nothing beats the feeling of a crisp and clean derailleur system. But I also have a gearbox hardtail, and the fact that it just always works is ideal. Especially when trying to fit your mountain biking in between work, kids and social activities. I hate it having to fix up my bike five minutes before I’m meeting my friends to go for a ride.
That's the main advantage for a gearbox. Throw in a Gates Carbon belt and you get a no maintenance bike. This type of bike is totally resistant to dirt no matter what. Cleaning ends in hossing it down and that's mainly for your own conscience and not because the bike needs it. Derailer systems are more efficient when you are investing a lot of time in maintenance but when not the difference isn't this great.
Which is easier to fix when you have a breakdown on the road-- this newfangled, interior rail hub never-seen-it-before system, or the typical derailleur that everyone knows and loves?
@@michaelsigismonde7958 with a Rohloff Hub, or another quality product, that’s a theoretical question. Besides, when you get a stick in your rear derailleur, and your derailleur ends up in the spokes of your rear wheel at top speed, then good luck trying to fix that mess of broken parts on the side of the trail.
I've had a Zerode Taniwha with a 12 speed Pinion gearbox, and have had it from when they were first released a number of years ago. Some thoughts on the gearbox. I think there is more drag than a derailleur setup, particularly during break in, but you get use to it and largely isn't a factor. From my design experience I suspect the biggest contributor is the drag from all the seals, then from the fact that it is a constant mesh gearbox meaning all the gears are always spinning. When you are pedaling in a low gear, the other gears are turning relatively slowly so the drag isn't that much, but when you use the higher gears, the slow gears that aren't being used are spinning faster than the gears you are using. I believe due to this, the efficiency is pretty decent in the lower gears, but gets more noticeable in the higher gears. The gearbox should be reliable but mine had to go in for a repair when something in the shifting system failed. I understand that Pinion has upgraded this. It definitely adds weight to the bike, but it is low and central, which is where you want it. I also think the Taniwha is overbuilt so that adds a bit of weight. Shifting is something you get use to but there is definitely a learning curve so most experienced riders struggle with it when they first try it. It's something you need to commit to and it does come good. Once you are use to it, the advantages are that you can change gear super fast, you can change many gears as fast as single change, and you don't have to be pedaling to change gears. The down side is you can't shift to an easier gear without taking the load off for an instant, and though with a regular drivetrain you can mash a gear, it is not kind to the drivetrain, particularly the chain. Chains seem to last forever. I'm still on my original chain. For the bike, besides the advantages of taking the weight off the rear wheel, it also affords a lot of advantages for the bike as the suspension pivots can be placed to take best advantage of a single chain line and a fix cog sizes. So I like the system, but it is not the home run for everyone. If I was XC racing, I don't think this is a good option due to the weight and drag, but for gravity assisted riding, and general riding where the fun factor doesn't hinge on weight and efficiency, then I think it a good option.
I think for UK riding in winter the gearbox is a no brainer, although, I do look after my bikes, particularly the transmission, so have very few problems with derailleurs. I can't understand why downhill bikes aren't already running gear boxes, they don't need loads of gears, additional friction is only a disadvantage when peddling a lot and it eliminates smashed rear derailleurs.
Millyards gearbox is a Shimano Alfine hub. His genius was how it was integrated with the bike he made, including enclosing the chain within the swingarm to keep it clean.
In my experience going from derailleur setup to effectively a single speed setup with a gearbox or, like in my case, a gear hub reduces amount of maintenance of the chain to such a level that you don't notice it. I think that chain being higher from the ground saves it from a lot of dust and dirt. I don't see much need to go from single speed chain to a belt (and I used to own a belt drive too).
I thought the same. What puts me of the most with the derailleur is the constant cleaning and relubing of the chain. Get all the mud, grime and grass of the jockey wheels and cassette is really a hassle
@@glebivanovsky7886 But belt is a higher level. F.a. people talk about to use some silicone oil spray on belt when very warm or colt on the outside. I set belt line perfecty straight (I think under 1mm tolerance between fornt and rear cog) and after one whole season I have non problematic, ultra clean and silent drivetrain. Totaly different planet for me after sit down from derailleur. Washing the bike is another planet.
Sam Shaw rode Zerode Taniwha in 2018 and 2019 in whole EWS series. Something between 30-40 places overall. But to make it much "visible" it has to be in first 5-10 overall. I belive it will be in next 3 years.
I ride an R&M Delight Mountain e bike with Rollhof and belt drive after becoming fed up with cleaning mud and gunk from derailleurs and chains after almost every ride . As far as I am concerned the advantages of minimal maintenance outweighs the weight disadvantage . I feel there is more internal drag from gearbox and belt but for my trail riding it hardly notices. When gearbox systems get lighter and incorporated with the mid mount motor they will become unbeatable .... cant wait for the new developments in the pipeline.
Great video! I happen to own a hardtail with a Pinion gearbox (11Ants pANTher, lovely Titanium frame). 12-speed, 600% range so even better than on a 12 speed derailleur setup. I'm running it with 650B tyres and treat is as a 'hard core hardtail' and have ridden it in Livigno in the Alps and it performs wonderfully. My other bike is a full suspension with 12 speed SRAM AXS geartrain on it. There is a difference and a bit of a learning curve but since the Pinion shifts with a rotating grip and the other with triggers, I immediately know what bike I'm on shifting-wise. The 11Ants pANTher has a carbon belt, that's even less maintenance than a chain like the one in this video. I still have the sound of the freewheel but if I put a silent rear hub in it, you wouldn't hear at thing on the bike. Keep up the great video's and I'm looking forward to more like this!
I know that Doddy points out that it is not a comparison of bikes but the whole package makes a difference. It is a longer travel coil sprung bike with a more flexible steel rear triangle and it has a lot more sprung weight. All of these things contribute to more grip along with the unsprung weight. It would be interesting to do a comparison on the canyon where he switches between a heavy duty tire wheel and drivetrain combo, a lightweight tire wheel and drivetrain combo and perhaps even a lightweight combo without chain derailleur and cassette just for comparison of unsprung weight.
I'd expect high pivot gearboxes to be the future. Maybe with some gearbox design that doesn't require keeping gears in the liquid and instead of more oil film on the gears similar to chain? Also, the gearbox design would need to avoid using planetary gears to reduce friction but that requires even smaller parts. The major problem is pretty high torque needed, huge gear range (I'd prefer 500+%) required and the cost. Maybe the gearbox could have some small oil pump that spreads oil film on the gears when you backpedal? That way you could avoid having gears in the oil all the time and any time you feel noise or friction increasing, pedal a bit backwards and it's just fine again.
Great video Doddy!! Was waiting for something like this! And you did a great job of telling all the differences, pros and cons! Just love the comparison! I personally like the derailleur as of its popularity and replaceability and availability of parts for it in India! Just a great video!
"the more you ride it the quicker it goes away" The gearbox oil viscosity would change with some work raising the oil temperature, so yeah that makes sense.
I thought that his 'goes away' comment meant that your legs just get used to it but the change in viscosity is a good point. This would mean that the advantage of the gearbox over a dirty derailleur on a cold day would not be as great if the oil remained cold.
@@Sidowse (material engineering student)there are way too many variables but yes. the heat is contained and they have much more friction radiating Heat into the oil. I'm also assuming they're going to using a very light oil. For motor oil the viscosity takes a massive Spike downward(gets more "watery" flows faster) from 0 to 10 c. It starts to plateau around 60 - 70 c. I have no doubt they're using a much lighter oil than engine oil but from that data alone I'm assuming the average fit human should have no problem raising the oil temp I enough. What I meant by 10 degrees Celsius is an increase from standstill not from zero celsius that was not clear sorry this is so long
10k km between services sounds marketing bs. What is considered service? I thing cleaning and lubing chain is service :) So this you will do as often as normal bike. How about chain? Does it last 10k Km? Chainrings could last 10k km. So this mainly removes the adjusting of the rear derailleur. Does gearbox still use cable? If yes that will need tuning also. Would be cool to see video of the actual service differences behind marketing bs. 10k km is just the oil service but there are still other service to be done I’m sure. Cool system anyway and would love to try one!
@@RealMTBAddict hehe. No it's not. 10kkm are oil intervals. Yeah, with gearbox in SS mode, chain and chainrings should last about 10kkm in full suspension bike. Of cours You should still clean and lube chain - but deinitely not so often as with standard drivetrain. If you use belt the only maintanence is washing drivetrain when washing bike. In full suspension bike gearbox drivetrain parts (sprockets, belt, chain) last a little bit less. My friend made 36kkm in hardtail bike riding 3 years in every conditions on one set with gates belt. My 9 speed Pinon has 570% range...
Campagnolo: We made a 13 speed drivetrain. SRAM: Hold my beer. However, I stopped the video at the 14:36 mark, took a screenshot, and counted the cogs. He only has 12 on there. So I don't know why he said 14.
If you were to move freewheel mechanism into the gearbox itself and move the rear caliper to the gearbox side (possible packaging issues) you can reduce the unsprung weight even further with basically the only thing that rear shock has to manage is the wheel, the bearings and the axle. I wonder if that's possible
Doddy, great insight. I’ve been sensing some of the same differences on my FS gearbox bike, but there are very few folks to chat with on the subject. While I know nil about Effigear, the Pinion friction is zero in 1st gear and substantial in 9th gear. So climbing in low gear, I get little friction at all. I suppose there’s friction in higher gears, but again, that’s going downhill and it doesn’t seem to matter. Another friction factor is that it decreases steadily over the first thousand miles or so. Along with that, it gets easier to shift over time. Finally, while the Starling is a bespoke beauty, the Zerode bikes are far more sophisticated and mainstream. And they move like Jagger…
Spot on, on everything. Exactly how I felt. Centered Gearboxes are made for Mountain bikes ! And rear hub gearboxes for city / touring. It's a matter of time when I get my hands on a beauty like this . 😁 Great video. Thanks again .
I bought a hardtail titanium frame with a pinion gearbox several years ago and really enjoyed it. This year I bought a zerode with another pinion gearbox and belt drive and have been blown away with how great it is!
Great video Doddy. I‘am running a double chainring Rohloff setup on one my bikes for years now. Having about 700% gearratio is absolutely stunning and I would never drive something else again on my fully. No messing arround with jumping gears, no issues with maintenance and thar hughe range of gears that I all use are just a few aurguments for the gearbox setup. Thanks for the viedos an go on.
Just something to add. The higher friction is with the Rohloff more in your mind than in the hub. A neglected or worn out deraileur setup has always more friction than the Rohloff.
Awesome video! I think that is one of the best and fairest comparisons that I have seen that focused on the things that matter in this space. Look at the Zerode range from a more trail friendly option, 140mm Katipo with the pinion would be a great comparison. I have the 160mm Katipo frame nearly fully built up and I can't wait to join the gearbox revolution. I chose a gearbox bike for reasons outside the potential damage to a derailleur. In 25 years of riding MTB, and many crashes, I've never even bent one. It's all their fiddly maintenance, constant alignment issues, extra maintenance of the chain and general mess that I'm over. When taking into account the suspension bonus and the quiet ride, I'll pay the penalties
Yeah, it's a revolution. After one whole season on it... ua-cam.com/video/zBwEY1-njSE/v-deo.html. There's no way back. Never again derailleur in any bike to the rest of my life I hope. Now I built FatBike and hardtail with Pinion and Gates... I can't wait to try it in 2022.
Regarding gear changes, I drilled gear changes with my Alfine 11 to see how quickly I could change. From a dead stop to sprint it was incredibly fun when you get those gear changes down to a 10's or 100's of ms. Switching back and forth between my derailleur trail bike however created some muscle memory problems, and I mangled some gear changes on both bikes, if I had been on one system for too long. I love my Eagle GX, but the benefits of an IGH were already showing how great gearboxes can be. A proper pinion gearbox is really exciting.
Find a Zerode katipo to ride on the show with the Gates Carbon Drive, so quiet. Knowing what the back wheel is doing gives you confidence and smiles. Only in the early days of riding mine and the friction hasn't been an issue. So much fun
Hey mate great vid,i have a c12 pinnon DEVAITE GUIDE ive own it for nearly three year it been an awesome bike and transmission in everyway i say the gearbox has got better with age with hardly no resistance as it got older ,i am using grip shift which works really well with gearbox as you can shift a hand full of gears at anytime chainring gear for me is just quite normal now it did take a bit of getting used to, it performs really well on long xc loops and trail centre's i can't say i notice the extra weight now,i am really happy with mine💚
Good points from Doddy. Surprisingly though, it doesn't take that long to learn to shift on a gearbox. I'd say it took me 5-6 rides on my Zerode. Now I'm loving shifting while coasting over rough stuff, ready for what's coming up. Good honest opinion piece though, mirrors my initial impressions as well.
My single speed 29r has a silent hub and it has always been a treat to ride and hear the tires doing their jobs. It is a hard tail but I can totally agree how that little bit of weight off the far back of the bike makes the whole thing so much more lively. Will be interested to see if these gearboxes really catch on.
I ride a paregrine cycles frame with 165/180 m of travel (f/r), high pivot with a 12 sp pinion gear box. I agree with Dodi’s points, most of the riding I do is gravity fueled and the benefits far out way any negatives. The centralized mass and Un sprung weight give these bikes amazing suspensions characteristics, amazing traction and small bump compliance. The difference in shifting between the gearbox and derailure systems takes a little getting used to but with a little familiarization I have come to really like how the gear box shifts, I can be coasting through rocks where I’m not able to get a peddle stroke and make my next gear selection before starting to peddle again. Love it
Good video. If you just take the next step of a belt drive, the maintenance would be nearly zero. What puts me of the most with the derailleur is the constant cleaning and relubing of the chain. Get all the mud, grime and grass of the jockey wheels and cassette is really a hassle :-(
Solid overview by Doddy - it feels like we are so close to gearboxes being a reality - just not there yet. When Shimano and Sram step up (which you know they will) the derailleur will be like 26" wheels and fixed seat posts...
Hi Doddy, I really enjoyed your last video! How about you try one of the bikes made by Zerode Bikes? First of all they are carbon so you safe that bit of weight (not that I prefer carbon over steel, because I don't!) And second of all you should be able to compare not just thee new effigear gearbox to a regular derailleur system but also to the gearbox made by pinion ... I'd really like to see that! Keep up the good work 😉
Hi Doddy I bought Zerode Taniwha ( second hand right place right time it seems)140mm travel front and rear 600% gear range with the Pinion 12 speed gearbox. My other bike is a Santa Cruz 2022 Bronson. The Taniwha is 300 grams heavier. Both bikes have carbon rims tubeless tyres carbon bars so pretty much the same set up. The mullet rolls over things better and the Taniwha with the lighter back end seems to track better. I like the lack of maintenance and will be fitting the Gates carbon belt drive later in the year when they are available so silent rides. Enjoy you show great content thanks Cheers Gaz A Kiwi
What I really like is that he is admitting that the different characteristics of changing gears isn't really a problem but a matter of experience. It takes some time to getting used to but afterwards there isn't much of a difference. Most bikers had years or even decades to get accustomed to the oddities of derailleur systems so it feels odd to use a gearbox and you just notice it's downsides because you don't know enough to use it's advantages
I have had a Curtis AM7 hardtail with a Pinion gearbox for the last 18 months, it's just the dream, not just to ride but with that Curtis frame, to look at too 😁🤘🤘🤘
Hi Doddy. Great review mate. I made the switch to a pinion gearbox a few months ago and will never go back. I thought it was all about lower maintenance drivetrain but the real surprise was the suspension performance. Interesting to see you felt the same improvements. When you remove the cassette, mech and chain off the back wheel the magic grip happens. You need to review a Zerode Katipo with Gates belt drive. I guarantee you will want to keep that bike!
Hehe, True. Love mine... After a year I can't imagine going back to the gear and chain. Now I built FatBike and semi agressive hartail, both with pinion and gates.
After the mud and grass carnage of my last cyclocross race, the extra friction of internal gears has to be less than a chain covered in mud, , and pulley wheels collecting mud and grass. Not to mention the few hours of cleaning afterwords. I need a viable internal gear hub for drop bar thru axels. I’d love a kindernay xiv for my mtb, but it’s a lot.
Doddy also forgot to mention that with some gearboxes you get a small but very noticeable deadzone of pedaling before the box engages movement with the chain. Then you also have to deal with the deadzone before your hub engages too unless you have a real expensive set of hubs. On the gearbox bike I demoed I really despised the laggy sensation of turning the cranks so far without engagement to my rear wheel.
Yes, I noticed this on a Pinon equipped demo bike a while ago. However, Effigears new Mimic box with much better engagement might negate this hopefully.
I previously commented on the Dirtshed Show video this last week that the gearbox is likely to be adopted on eMTBs. It seems like a winner for Downhill Bikes where ther application of this has obvious advantages - no rear derailieur and less need to overcome that slightly increased friction of the gearbox.
Yes, Gamux bikes said this is the reason why they switched to a gearbox driven DH bike for their factory team. Also the ability to switch between gears on rough sections without pedalling or mid air.
I tried a pinion gearbox enduro bike (won´t advertise here). My impressions: - Silence! Having nothing that rattles around all the time, no matter how bumpy the trail, is just bliss - Precision: somehow I got the impression to be able to have more control over the rear - Immediate shifting!! Wrong gear on a hill? no issue! - Clean: washing your bike without tons of greasy parts to clean. My next bike will have a gear box. Till then, I shred on, on my Capra.
Another Thing. You do also move the center of Mass more to the middle, than om the back. That will give more control like a lamborghini vs a porsche. When we talk about engine placement
10:06 broke a derailleur recently again. took it and the chain off to finish the ride and it felt (and sounded) so much better. quite a shame that gearboxes are still so inaccessible.
You should look at a third option: internal gears on the rear wheel freeing the crank end for a gear box at the cranks or a minimal middrive. Internals on the rear wheel also offer instant shifting unlike external gearing! Last note is what about a Gates Beltdrive compared to chain drive?
When I had a Shimano Alfine 11 internal hub for half a season, the shifting took no time to get used to. Yes, you have to stop pedaling to change gears. But the shifting is so instant, it is WAY faster to stop pedaling for a fraction of a second, shift a gear or two or 10, then start pedaling. It was way faster and you'd lose way less momentum doing this, vs traditional derailers where you have to pedal light and slowly wait for the shift. That aspect was vastly superior to derailers.
I once had a rear del get chewed up out on the trail. I had to remove it and run the rest of the way back in a middle gear BUT I did feel there was more power going through by having the chain in a straight line like in this setup. I’ve always toyed with the idea of running a Hub gear like a Nexus 8 which I know wouldn’t give the 500% spread but it might give you enough.
When your talking of drag, i either pedal above the support of my e-bikes motor on the flat or just chill. It weird how much something i thought would bother didn't, and as a bonus can get 96 miles from a 600 wh battery if its used in echo. Id rather have a gearbox than a derailleur, plus a sealed chain to rear. It's been done before, but chains are profit!
Not sure what all is in these gearboxes but it’d be interesting to see if a fully synthetic oil of a very thin nature and a surface friction modifier like motor kote was used. Or even to the extent of gears with rolling green elements incorporated like a roller camshaft for an engine could do for really minimizing internal friction
You might try tp put power meters on a gearbox bike and a derailleur bike and do some runs up the hills, or flats, (I'd say do an XC course but it would be difficult to hold a steady watt output to make the rides equal) at a constant power and see what, if any, time differences there are.
Epicyclic gears (Surmey Archer, Rholoff, etc) rotate the oil with the gears there is less splashing and oil shear going on than with twin shaft pinion gears.. Motorcycles have an near instant gear shift so a person used to motorbikes has no problem with gearbox bicycles. They are already used to shifting when they need to go. However they are also used to powering out of bends. That's not good idea with pedals hitting the ground.
Zerode have just opened their European base and distributor. They make the katipo, a carbon framed trail 29er with a pinion gear box(it looks to be amazing). I would love to see the same video with that bike!
i have had a katipo for a year or so - its a great ride. mine has the 9 speed (560%) and the belt drive with the high end fox forks and shocks. it really does give confidence on the downhills. I love cleaning the bike - just soapy water is enough! The only annoying thing is the belt makes a weird sound in dry dusty conditions. this is caused by a built up of static electricity on the idler wheel. in thick mud it is silent.
I have a pinion C12 & what's even better it has a carbon belt drive & 600% of gear ratio ,No maintenance ,I must admit I don't do racing just bike packing but I much prefer it over my SRAM by miles .Also pinion now do one that can electronically change gear under tension , they also do one with a built in motor . I have mine on a Olson Lamb titanium ,It's 3 lbs lighter than my Surly Ogre with a Rohloff & 7lbs lighter than my Thorn Nomad lol .
One of the best accesments of a different tech i have ever had the pleasure to watch and hear. The derailer is mature and will through popularity continue to be developed. What i wouldl like to see is more development of gears and belt drives. Bikes are becoming very refined around the type of riding is most important to a given use. Refinement usually goes hand in hand with expensive so owning multiple bikes optimised for different terrains is becoming less viable. I love to see an all terraine bike which may not excell in all, can allow me to adventure Safely and comfortably in all but the most extreem situations. i live in Australia and use my bike mostly to commute but without almost any bike infrastructure on our roads we are left to the margins which increasingly resemble trails. I figure to be safe i need to go through potholes exit via kerbs if required. A bike that can dymanically switch from road bike to enuro bike as situation demands. All in a super low maintenance gear belt drive package.
internal hub like Rolf with 500+% range with belt drive is the future for mtb. only friction I can feel is when coasting, but when paddling i can' feel the differences between the two with clean/lube chain. when the chain is dry or dirty, definitely increase in friction so a belt will be a better option for internal gears to maximize the benefit. I have seen a mtb with chain stay higher up allow the chain to wrap outside the chainstay. this same design can be apply to the belt drive preventing mount points in seat-stay.
2:21 I always hated having to degrease and re-oil the chain on a regular basis, including after water contact (e.g. rain). You have to keep a set of chemicals, unmount everything, make sure to oil it right. How is this whole setup easy to maintain then?
I wonder if an effigear frame can be made cross compatible with the different drivetrains. Like disconnecting the gear box by means of a sort of translator to move the actual teeth of the gears away from the crank spindle and turn it back into a cassette-style bike.
Now put it in a emtb… that would be the holy grail…the motor will take away the friction issue. One of the things that break the most and takes most time to maintain is the chain and derailleur. Maby even put on a split peld drive fromm Veer ;)
Sadly this is already yesterday's Effigear. They've developed the Mimic, wich mimics the Pinion mounting points (pun intended) And the chain is also on the crank axle, instead of a high pivot. I think it's great news for us consumers, because bike brands can now make a frame for gearboxes, which are supported by two brands.
I don't understand how additional weight on the rear wheel affects suspension, especially with air shocks where you adjust sag to approximately 30% (give or take). Like Aaron Gwin's chainless downhill run, I'm curious how a loss of the chain affected his performance (maybe I'm talking about two different things here).
Basically, inertia. The lighter the wheel less force the suspension will have to overcome to push the wheel on the ground. If the wheel was 10 kg the suspension would have to do an awful amount of force to stop the wheel bouncing back from the ground and push it down. Chainless Downhill run: Probably theres videos explaining it, but I think the suspension worked better without the chain to hinder its movement. Maybe Aron took a little more risk knowing he couldn't pedal if he was too slow.
Such a gearbox is great when riding in winter or in similar bad conditions, it would also be great to have one on e-bikes. But there is always the price question, as of yet i would not prefer gearbox to derailleur not because its technical issues but only because bike with derailleurs cost significally less money.
i think you can solve the problem of the gearbox needing to be in oil and have less oil with a propeler system that flicks the oil round the gears when you pedal
Always feels like a missed opportunity when a gearbox bike isn't paired with the excellent Gates belt drive. I'm waiting for the day when they make a full suspension e-bike with electronic shifting and gates belt drive. That would be perfection!
The main thing holding back gearbox bikes for me is the overall aesthetics of the bike and frame design....when the 'big boys' dip their oar in I'm sure that will change though. Right now, I can not say I am that taken by the current looks of the frame designs on offer.
Hi Doddy, love the show and your enthusiasm for mtb tech. With regards to gearboxes I think they will soon be mainstream, but mostly on e-bikes where the frictional losses will be less noticeable. Leading on from that I think the next step will be some type of semi-automatic transmission, perhaps along the lines of the DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) that Honda have as an option on many of their motorbikes.
Another aspect to deal with: having no rear derailleur allows manufacturers to have symmetrical rear wheels. Easier maintenance of spokes tension and more balanced riding feeling in the rear end. Really looking forward to having my first gear box bike!
Here’s something else I haven’t heard…s the free hub piece inside the gear box on the Starling? If so, you’d be dodging the upkeep on the free hub, and since my Epic Evo has a rusty free hub after just six months use in a dry place (Arizona), that would make a big difference for me as well.
With regards the extra friction and 10,000 hour service interval: surely running a thinner oil and changing it more frequently would help in that regard?
I'd love to ditch the rear mech, I was an early adopter of 1x9, but I like to push big torque on climbs (maybe evident from the 1x9 setup), I hate spinning. I think gearboxes go against my riding style. Not that I don't push on the downhills, just that uphills are kind of defining for me, low (as in high cadence) gears feel like riding through treacle and honestly wear me out more.
In answer to you question re more trail riding. Ryan Duzer from Boulder Colorado uses a Pinion gearbox for his epic bikepacking trips as does the Cycling About dude. Ryan raves about his Pinion set up and i have never heard him lament the friction issue. PS great video, i love everything you guys do. Also that sound track was killer👌
Who´s not looking at the development of for example pinion drives every now and then. I think the interest is super high. I guess everyones just waiting until the evolution of these things have made them to a real alternative. On the other side... starling, forestal, zerode... these are pretty dope already... I guess somebody needs to attempt winning an ews with this some day and then it´ll take off.
Another advantage of having no cassette at the back is you can have the hub flanges wider apart and build a much stronger wheel for virtually the same weight.
This would be great on an ebike!!!
@@luck112a and significantly reduce braking performance
@@uncleputes But braking the rim with that has much larger diameter and is "already there" kinda makes more sense in principle. I need to look into hydraulic rim brakes now. :)
@@dzidmail And how well are they gonna work when riding through mud? I can take a guess it's a little worse than discs...There's a reason motorcycles use disc brakes these days
@@uncleputes (I found my old rim brakes to worked better in wet. Depends on compound.) With snow there were issues.
And yeah, with mud though, they eat up through rims faster. :(
I managed to forgot about that over the years. And also the fact that any rim wobble is a total pain.
Being in hot climate now, I would like to give it another try with rear suspension, but in practice it's unlikely to find a frame with the mounts.
Built my own custom titanium hardtail with a pinion gearbox and belt drive, and 3D printed an electronic shifter for it. It was weird getting back to a derailleur when I travelled to a local island without my bike, and the zero maintenance drivetrain has been magnificent - I’ve not washed my bike in over 1000km (whoops)
Do you have some pictures of the custom electronic shifter?
You need to get that on the show. Sounds amazing
@@varez93 I’m very curious about the shifter as well!
Thirded. I've considered making such a thing before. Will be interesting to see what you've come up with.
Me too, me too...
Doddy is a great host. The detailed explanation of the difference in feel of the bikes is exactly the kind of thing I want to hear if I’m deciding on a purchase.
So true. I can't imagine anyone doing a better job with a video like this.
I feel like older people in general are better at describing things because they couldn't just take a video and play it they had to tell the video
I saw Daddy at first read.😂
I’m solely a road rider, but love learning, which I just did! Very clear, informative, and entertaining video!
@@04Serena Isn't it frustrating dealing with terrible drivers, and the danger they place you in? I ride a motorcycle, drive a commercial truck and enjoy mountain bikes, so I always give road bikes their space even if non are present to me.
5:13 Doddy with the latest 14speed AXS, always knew he got the best stuff first..
Yeah..
It's not even April 1st this time!
Haha, I scrolled down to find a comment about that.
@Andrew Dodd Please, admit that You were thinking (dreamed?) about 18s pinion gearbox... Didn't You? ;-)
The remarks about added friction should be relativized. A gearbox has more friction than a clean straight derailleur chain line. But as soon as your chain line is not straight or dirty, the difference gets a lot smaller.
In my experience, the added friction is mostly in between the ears, because it feels and sounds different.
Ears not gears! 🤣
@@johnf3326 shame on me, ears and gears was a missed opportunity for a good word joke. 😋
He mentions this in the video....
One with gearbox does also get dirty chain?
@@juhao81 Yes but no. ;) Off course, the chain gets dirty as well on a gearbox bike, but because of the straight chain line and no derailleur, a lot less dirt gets into the chain itself. Also, a single speed chain without a tensioner is a lot more ‘self-cleaning’, because the sprockets (with higher teeth and more clearance around them) push all the dirt out of the chain links. Therefore a lot less friction in real life.
... and that is original Effigear box. They have now smaller and lighter version called Mimic.
I'm really looking forward to what they will be able to achieve in the nearest future...
Cheers!
I.
Im waiting for the Electronic motor mimic
Horses for courses. Nothing beats the feeling of a crisp and clean derailleur system. But I also have a gearbox hardtail, and the fact that it just always works is ideal. Especially when trying to fit your mountain biking in between work, kids and social activities. I hate it having to fix up my bike five minutes before I’m meeting my friends to go for a ride.
‘five’
That's the main advantage for a gearbox. Throw in a Gates Carbon belt and you get a no maintenance bike. This type of bike is totally resistant to dirt no matter what. Cleaning ends in hossing it down and that's mainly for your own conscience and not because the bike needs it.
Derailer systems are more efficient when you are investing a lot of time in maintenance but when not the difference isn't this great.
Which is easier to fix when you have a breakdown on the road-- this newfangled, interior rail hub never-seen-it-before system, or the typical derailleur that everyone knows and loves?
@@michaelsigismonde7958 with a Rohloff Hub, or another quality product, that’s a theoretical question.
Besides, when you get a stick in your rear derailleur, and your derailleur ends up in the spokes of your rear wheel at top speed, then good luck trying to fix that mess of broken parts on the side of the trail.
Coming from the dirt shed and was looking forward to this. Doddy is the MVP
I've had a Zerode Taniwha with a 12 speed Pinion gearbox, and have had it from when they were first released a number of years ago. Some thoughts on the gearbox. I think there is more drag than a derailleur setup, particularly during break in, but you get use to it and largely isn't a factor. From my design experience I suspect the biggest contributor is the drag from all the seals, then from the fact that it is a constant mesh gearbox meaning all the gears are always spinning. When you are pedaling in a low gear, the other gears are turning relatively slowly so the drag isn't that much, but when you use the higher gears, the slow gears that aren't being used are spinning faster than the gears you are using. I believe due to this, the efficiency is pretty decent in the lower gears, but gets more noticeable in the higher gears. The gearbox should be reliable but mine had to go in for a repair when something in the shifting system failed. I understand that Pinion has upgraded this. It definitely adds weight to the bike, but it is low and central, which is where you want it. I also think the Taniwha is overbuilt so that adds a bit of weight. Shifting is something you get use to but there is definitely a learning curve so most experienced riders struggle with it when they first try it. It's something you need to commit to and it does come good. Once you are use to it, the advantages are that you can change gear super fast, you can change many gears as fast as single change, and you don't have to be pedaling to change gears. The down side is you can't shift to an easier gear without taking the load off for an instant, and though with a regular drivetrain you can mash a gear, it is not kind to the drivetrain, particularly the chain. Chains seem to last forever. I'm still on my original chain. For the bike, besides the advantages of taking the weight off the rear wheel, it also affords a lot of advantages for the bike as the suspension pivots can be placed to take best advantage of a single chain line and a fix cog sizes. So I like the system, but it is not the home run for everyone. If I was XC racing, I don't think this is a good option due to the weight and drag, but for gravity assisted riding, and general riding where the fun factor doesn't hinge on weight and efficiency, then I think it a good option.
Good thoughts.
That cleared up everything for me. thanks
Great explanation I've never heard before in that completeness, thanks a lot!
I think for UK riding in winter the gearbox is a no brainer, although, I do look after my bikes, particularly the transmission, so have very few problems with derailleurs. I can't understand why downhill bikes aren't already running gear boxes, they don't need loads of gears, additional friction is only a disadvantage when peddling a lot and it eliminates smashed rear derailleurs.
I love the aesthetic and clean lines of the gearbox rig alone. Let’s not forget Allan Millyard’s gearbox too, that’s a piece of work
But that is not for production
Millyards gearbox is a Shimano Alfine hub. His genius was how it was integrated with the bike he made, including enclosing the chain within the swingarm to keep it clean.
I am so impressed with Doddy's clarity and his precision with word choice when describing and comparing the two bikes together.
Replace the chain drive with a belt drive and we would be getting even closer to zero maintenance.
@@cup_and_cone Noise, price of chain and sprockets. Thats why automotive uses belts. Cheaper to produce, less noise.
@@stevendegreef93 Looks like person who my response was to deleted their comment, so it appeared out of context...
In my experience going from derailleur setup to effectively a single speed setup with a gearbox or, like in my case, a gear hub reduces amount of maintenance of the chain to such a level that you don't notice it. I think that chain being higher from the ground saves it from a lot of dust and dirt. I don't see much need to go from single speed chain to a belt (and I used to own a belt drive too).
I thought the same. What puts me of the most with the derailleur is the constant cleaning and relubing of the chain. Get all the mud, grime and grass of the jockey wheels and cassette is really a hassle
@@glebivanovsky7886 But belt is a higher level. F.a. people talk about to use some silicone oil spray on belt when very warm or colt on the outside. I set belt line perfecty straight (I think under 1mm tolerance between fornt and rear cog) and after one whole season I have non problematic, ultra clean and silent drivetrain. Totaly different planet for me after sit down from derailleur. Washing the bike is another planet.
Great vid with interesting reporting. PS editorial note - 4:17 the quick link is on the wrong way.
Once a name rider in the EWS takes on this tech it will take off. I believe it is the future for all the reasons you mentioned.
Sam Shaw rode Zerode Taniwha in 2018 and 2019 in whole EWS series. Something between 30-40 places overall. But to make it much "visible" it has to be in first 5-10 overall. I belive it will be in next 3 years.
I ride an R&M Delight Mountain e bike with Rollhof and belt drive after becoming fed up with cleaning mud and gunk from derailleurs and chains after almost every ride .
As far as I am concerned the advantages of minimal maintenance outweighs the weight disadvantage . I feel there is more internal drag from gearbox and belt but for my trail riding it hardly notices. When gearbox systems get lighter and incorporated with the mid mount motor they will become unbeatable .... cant wait for the new developments in the pipeline.
5:10 apparently Doddy is testing SRAM's new 1x 14 system!
Great video! I happen to own a hardtail with a Pinion gearbox (11Ants pANTher, lovely Titanium frame). 12-speed, 600% range so even better than on a 12 speed derailleur setup. I'm running it with 650B tyres and treat is as a 'hard core hardtail' and have ridden it in Livigno in the Alps and it performs wonderfully. My other bike is a full suspension with 12 speed SRAM AXS geartrain on it. There is a difference and a bit of a learning curve but since the Pinion shifts with a rotating grip and the other with triggers, I immediately know what bike I'm on shifting-wise. The 11Ants pANTher has a carbon belt, that's even less maintenance than a chain like the one in this video. I still have the sound of the freewheel but if I put a silent rear hub in it, you wouldn't hear at thing on the bike. Keep up the great video's and I'm looking forward to more like this!
I'm ready to accept anything to get rid of that cleaning fuzz!
I know that Doddy points out that it is not a comparison of bikes but the whole package makes a difference. It is a longer travel coil sprung bike with a more flexible steel rear triangle and it has a lot more sprung weight. All of these things contribute to more grip along with the unsprung weight. It would be interesting to do a comparison on the canyon where he switches between a heavy duty tire wheel and drivetrain combo, a lightweight tire wheel and drivetrain combo and perhaps even a lightweight combo without chain derailleur and cassette just for comparison of unsprung weight.
Single pivot and not external gears sounds like a dream set up for the UK winter!
I'd expect high pivot gearboxes to be the future. Maybe with some gearbox design that doesn't require keeping gears in the liquid and instead of more oil film on the gears similar to chain? Also, the gearbox design would need to avoid using planetary gears to reduce friction but that requires even smaller parts. The major problem is pretty high torque needed, huge gear range (I'd prefer 500+%) required and the cost.
Maybe the gearbox could have some small oil pump that spreads oil film on the gears when you backpedal? That way you could avoid having gears in the oil all the time and any time you feel noise or friction increasing, pedal a bit backwards and it's just fine again.
Great video Doddy!! Was waiting for something like this! And you did a great job of telling all the differences, pros and cons! Just love the comparison! I personally like the derailleur as of its popularity and replaceability and availability of parts for it in India! Just a great video!
"the more you ride it the quicker it goes away"
The gearbox oil viscosity would change with some work raising the oil temperature, so yeah that makes sense.
I thought that his 'goes away' comment meant that your legs just get used to it but the change in viscosity is a good point. This would mean that the advantage of the gearbox over a dirty derailleur on a cold day would not be as great if the oil remained cold.
@@Sidowse (material engineering student)there are way too many variables but yes. the heat is contained and they have much more friction radiating Heat into the oil. I'm also assuming they're going to using a very light oil. For motor oil the viscosity takes a massive Spike downward(gets more "watery" flows faster) from 0 to 10 c. It starts to plateau around 60 - 70 c. I have no doubt they're using a much lighter oil than engine oil but from that data alone I'm assuming the average fit human should have no problem raising the oil temp I enough. What I meant by 10 degrees Celsius is an increase from standstill not from zero celsius that was not clear sorry this is so long
10k km between services sounds marketing bs. What is considered service? I thing cleaning and lubing chain is service :) So this you will do as often as normal bike. How about chain? Does it last 10k Km? Chainrings could last 10k km. So this mainly removes the adjusting of the rear derailleur. Does gearbox still use cable? If yes that will need tuning also.
Would be cool to see video of the actual service differences behind marketing bs. 10k km is just the oil service but there are still other service to be done I’m sure.
Cool system anyway and would love to try one!
@@RealMTBAddict hehe. No it's not. 10kkm are oil intervals. Yeah, with gearbox in SS mode, chain and chainrings should last about 10kkm in full suspension bike. Of cours You should still clean and lube chain - but deinitely not so often as with standard drivetrain. If you use belt the only maintanence is washing drivetrain when washing bike. In full suspension bike gearbox drivetrain parts (sprockets, belt, chain) last a little bit less. My friend made 36kkm in hardtail bike riding 3 years in every conditions on one set with gates belt. My 9 speed Pinon has 570% range...
Campagnolo: We made a 13 speed drivetrain. SRAM: Hold my beer. However, I stopped the video at the 14:36 mark, took a screenshot, and counted the cogs. He only has 12 on there. So I don't know why he said 14.
it was a typo, SRAM is 12 speed
Proof that he's still a human
@Andrew Dodd ua-cam.com/video/woaAcKcszoY/v-deo.html
If you were to move freewheel mechanism into the gearbox itself and move the rear caliper to the gearbox side (possible packaging issues) you can reduce the unsprung weight even further with basically the only thing that rear shock has to manage is the wheel, the bearings and the axle.
I wonder if that's possible
Worth adding that gearbox back wheels don't need as much dishing, so they're stronger
And the whole rear-end is narrower because a boost-hub isn't required.
Pinion has two advantages IMO, first belt drive and second larger gear range. I have a 600% pinion!
Doddy, great insight. I’ve been sensing some of the same differences on my FS gearbox bike, but there are very few folks to chat with on the subject. While I know nil about Effigear, the Pinion friction is zero in 1st gear and substantial in 9th gear. So climbing in low gear, I get little friction at all. I suppose there’s friction in higher gears, but again, that’s going downhill and it doesn’t seem to matter. Another friction factor is that it decreases steadily over the first thousand miles or so. Along with that, it gets easier to shift over time.
Finally, while the Starling is a bespoke beauty, the Zerode bikes are far more sophisticated and mainstream. And they move like Jagger…
Spot on, on everything.
Exactly how I felt.
Centered Gearboxes are made for Mountain bikes ! And rear hub gearboxes for city / touring.
It's a matter of time when I get my hands on a beauty like this . 😁
Great video.
Thanks again .
I bought a hardtail titanium frame with a pinion gearbox several years ago and really enjoyed it. This year I bought a zerode with another pinion gearbox and belt drive and have been blown away with how great it is!
Great video Doddy.
I‘am running a double chainring Rohloff setup on one my bikes for years now. Having about 700% gearratio is absolutely stunning and I would never drive something else again on my fully. No messing arround with jumping gears, no issues with maintenance and thar hughe range of gears that I all use are just a few aurguments for the gearbox setup.
Thanks for the viedos an go on.
Just something to add.
The higher friction is with the Rohloff more in your mind than in the hub. A neglected or worn out deraileur setup has always more friction than the Rohloff.
Another great video Doddy! I see no reason why this can't be on the main channel though, and that can be said for most of your videos
Awesome video! I think that is one of the best and fairest comparisons that I have seen that focused on the things that matter in this space. Look at the Zerode range from a more trail friendly option, 140mm Katipo with the pinion would be a great comparison. I have the 160mm Katipo frame nearly fully built up and I can't wait to join the gearbox revolution.
I chose a gearbox bike for reasons outside the potential damage to a derailleur. In 25 years of riding MTB, and many crashes, I've never even bent one. It's all their fiddly maintenance, constant alignment issues, extra maintenance of the chain and general mess that I'm over. When taking into account the suspension bonus and the quiet ride, I'll pay the penalties
Yeah, it's a revolution.
After one whole season on it... ua-cam.com/video/zBwEY1-njSE/v-deo.html. There's no way back. Never again derailleur in any bike to the rest of my life I hope. Now I built FatBike and hardtail with Pinion and Gates... I can't wait to try it in 2022.
Love the idea of a robust transmission box, I sure hope this one gets on the pedestal
Regarding gear changes, I drilled gear changes with my Alfine 11 to see how quickly I could change. From a dead stop to sprint it was incredibly fun when you get those gear changes down to a 10's or 100's of ms.
Switching back and forth between my derailleur trail bike however created some muscle memory problems, and I mangled some gear changes on both bikes, if I had been on one system for too long.
I love my Eagle GX, but the benefits of an IGH were already showing how great gearboxes can be. A proper pinion gearbox is really exciting.
Find a Zerode katipo to ride on the show with the Gates Carbon Drive, so quiet. Knowing what the back wheel is doing gives you confidence and smiles. Only in the early days of riding mine and the friction hasn't been an issue. So much fun
I would have bought it, if it wasn't plastic and had better geometry.
Hey mate great vid,i have a c12 pinnon DEVAITE GUIDE ive own it for nearly three year it been an awesome bike and transmission in everyway i say the gearbox has got better with age with hardly no resistance as it got older ,i am using grip shift which works really well with gearbox as you can shift a hand full of gears at anytime chainring gear for me is just quite normal now it did take a bit of getting used to, it performs really well on long xc loops and trail centre's i can't say i notice the extra weight now,i am really happy with mine💚
Got one of those too. It's such a sadly overlooked bike. Should be the template for all mountain bikes, in my opinion.
Good points from Doddy. Surprisingly though, it doesn't take that long to learn to shift on a gearbox. I'd say it took me 5-6 rides on my Zerode. Now I'm loving shifting while coasting over rough stuff, ready for what's coming up. Good honest opinion piece though, mirrors my initial impressions as well.
My single speed 29r has a silent hub and it has always been a treat to ride and hear the tires doing their jobs. It is a hard tail but I can totally agree how that little bit of weight off the far back of the bike makes the whole thing so much more lively. Will be interested to see if these gearboxes really catch on.
I ride a paregrine cycles frame with 165/180 m of travel (f/r), high pivot with a 12 sp pinion gear box. I agree with Dodi’s points, most of the riding I do is gravity fueled and the benefits far out way any negatives. The centralized mass and Un sprung weight give these bikes amazing suspensions characteristics, amazing traction and small bump compliance. The difference in shifting between the gearbox and derailure systems takes a little getting used to but with a little familiarization I have come to really like how the gear box shifts, I can be coasting through rocks where I’m not able to get a peddle stroke and make my next gear selection before starting to peddle again. Love it
Good video. If you just take the next step of a belt drive, the maintenance would be nearly zero. What puts me of the most with the derailleur is the constant cleaning and relubing of the chain. Get all the mud, grime and grass of the jockey wheels and cassette is really a hassle :-(
Solid overview by Doddy - it feels like we are so close to gearboxes being a reality - just not there yet. When Shimano and Sram step up (which you know they will) the derailleur will be like 26" wheels and fixed seat posts...
Hi Doddy,
I really enjoyed your last video!
How about you try one of the bikes made by Zerode Bikes?
First of all they are carbon so you safe that bit of weight (not that I prefer carbon over steel, because I don't!)
And second of all you should be able to compare not just thee new effigear gearbox to a regular derailleur system but also to the gearbox made by pinion ...
I'd really like to see that!
Keep up the good work 😉
I agree so much, the gearbox bike used in this video is so ugly compared to the Zerode bikes
@@PhatPhilmarine hehe, yeah.... ua-cam.com/video/zBwEY1-njSE/v-deo.html
Terrific video. I am convinced central mounted gearing is the future for off road cycling. Its a hard one to crack but never say never!!
Hi Doddy I bought Zerode Taniwha ( second hand right place right time it seems)140mm travel front and rear 600% gear range with the Pinion 12 speed gearbox. My other bike is a Santa Cruz 2022 Bronson. The Taniwha is 300 grams heavier. Both bikes have carbon rims tubeless tyres carbon bars so pretty much the same set up. The mullet rolls over things better and the Taniwha with the lighter back end seems to track better. I like the lack of maintenance and will be fitting the Gates carbon belt drive later in the year when they are available so silent rides. Enjoy you show great content thanks
Cheers Gaz
A Kiwi
What I really like is that he is admitting that the different characteristics of changing gears isn't really a problem but a matter of experience. It takes some time to getting used to but afterwards there isn't much of a difference. Most bikers had years or even decades to get accustomed to the oddities of derailleur systems so it feels odd to use a gearbox and you just notice it's downsides because you don't know enough to use it's advantages
I have had a Curtis AM7 hardtail with a Pinion gearbox for the last 18 months, it's just the dream, not just to ride but with that Curtis frame, to look at too 😁🤘🤘🤘
Hi Doddy. Great review mate. I made the switch to a pinion gearbox a few months ago and will never go back. I thought it was all about lower maintenance drivetrain but the real surprise was the suspension performance. Interesting to see you felt the same improvements. When you remove the cassette, mech and chain off the back wheel the magic grip happens. You need to review a Zerode Katipo with Gates belt drive. I guarantee you will want to keep that bike!
Hehe, True. Love mine... After a year I can't imagine going back to the gear and chain. Now I built FatBike and semi agressive hartail, both with pinion and gates.
After the mud and grass carnage of my last cyclocross race, the extra friction of internal gears has to be less than a chain covered in mud, , and pulley wheels collecting mud and grass. Not to mention the few hours of cleaning afterwords. I need a viable internal gear hub for drop bar thru axels. I’d love a kindernay xiv for my mtb, but it’s a lot.
Doddy also forgot to mention that with some gearboxes you get a small but very noticeable deadzone of pedaling before the box engages movement with the chain. Then you also have to deal with the deadzone before your hub engages too unless you have a real expensive set of hubs. On the gearbox bike I demoed I really despised the laggy sensation of turning the cranks so far without engagement to my rear wheel.
Yes, I noticed this on a Pinon equipped demo bike a while ago. However, Effigears new Mimic box with much better engagement might negate this hopefully.
@@BigBanana55 Yeah that would be cool if they could make it instant engagement. I wonder how expensive it would end up being?
I previously commented on the Dirtshed Show video this last week that the gearbox is likely to be adopted on eMTBs. It seems like a winner for Downhill Bikes where ther application of this has obvious advantages - no rear derailieur and less need to overcome that slightly increased friction of the gearbox.
I guess Shimano is the obvious candidate to integrate the two technologies
Yes, Gamux bikes said this is the reason why they switched to a gearbox driven DH bike for their factory team. Also the ability to switch between gears on rough sections without pedalling or mid air.
The bonus is that regenerative braking is possible
I tried a pinion gearbox enduro bike (won´t advertise here). My impressions:
- Silence! Having nothing that rattles around all the time, no matter how bumpy the trail, is just bliss
- Precision: somehow I got the impression to be able to have more control over the rear
- Immediate shifting!! Wrong gear on a hill? no issue!
- Clean: washing your bike without tons of greasy parts to clean.
My next bike will have a gear box. Till then, I shred on, on my Capra.
Yes, my Spur should arrive in december. Happy with the video :)
Looking forward to gearboxes on "all mountain" type hardtails! 120 MM travel or so and drive belt would be PERFECT!
Another Thing. You do also move the center of Mass more to the middle, than om the back.
That will give more control like a lamborghini vs a porsche. When we talk about engine placement
10:06 broke a derailleur recently again. took it and the chain off to finish the ride and it felt (and sounded) so much better.
quite a shame that gearboxes are still so inaccessible.
Rohloff and Shimano also make excellent internal gear hubs, along with those that were mentioned.
You should look at a third option: internal gears on the rear wheel freeing the crank end for a gear box at the cranks or a minimal middrive. Internals on the rear wheel also offer instant shifting unlike external gearing!
Last note is what about a Gates Beltdrive compared to chain drive?
Probably one of the best vids you’ve presented Mr Dodd.
When I had a Shimano Alfine 11 internal hub for half a season, the shifting took no time to get used to. Yes, you have to stop pedaling to change gears. But the shifting is so instant, it is WAY faster to stop pedaling for a fraction of a second, shift a gear or two or 10, then start pedaling. It was way faster and you'd lose way less momentum doing this, vs traditional derailers where you have to pedal light and slowly wait for the shift. That aspect was vastly superior to derailers.
I once had a rear del get chewed up out on the trail. I had to remove it and run the rest of the way back in a middle gear BUT I did feel there was more power going through by having the chain in a straight line like in this setup. I’ve always toyed with the idea of running a Hub gear like a Nexus 8 which I know wouldn’t give the 500% spread but it might give you enough.
An AXS style gearbox that can be shifted both up and down under load and it's game over for the current tech.
I'm in love with that Starling, I want one.
When your talking of drag, i either pedal above the support of my e-bikes motor on the flat or just chill. It weird how much something i thought would bother didn't, and as a bonus can get 96 miles from a 600 wh battery if its used in echo. Id rather have a gearbox than a derailleur, plus a sealed chain to rear. It's been done before, but chains are profit!
got to go with carbon belt drive if you're going gear box, do away with the chain completely.
Belt requires tension, can't do rear suspension with belt as far as I know
Great video, I suspect as the oil heats up the friction decreases why it felt easier after a few laps.
Not sure what all is in these gearboxes but it’d be interesting to see if a fully synthetic oil of a very thin nature and a surface friction modifier like motor kote was used. Or even to the extent of gears with rolling green elements incorporated like a roller camshaft for an engine could do for really minimizing internal friction
You might try tp put power meters on a gearbox bike and a derailleur bike and do some runs up the hills, or flats, (I'd say do an XC course but it would be difficult to hold a steady watt output to make the rides equal) at a constant power and see what, if any, time differences there are.
Epicyclic gears (Surmey Archer, Rholoff, etc) rotate the oil with the gears there is less splashing and oil shear going on than with twin shaft pinion gears.. Motorcycles have an near instant gear shift so a person used to motorbikes has no problem with gearbox bicycles. They are already used to shifting when they need to go. However they are also used to powering out of bends. That's not good idea with pedals hitting the ground.
Eventually down to the price in the market. Quite interested to have a ride on a bike with gearbox. Looks so cool as well.
Zerode have just opened their European base and distributor. They make the katipo, a carbon framed trail 29er with a pinion gear box(it looks to be amazing).
I would love to see the same video with that bike!
i have had a katipo for a year or so - its a great ride. mine has the 9 speed (560%) and the belt drive with the high end fox forks and shocks. it really does give confidence on the downhills. I love cleaning the bike - just soapy water is enough! The only annoying thing is the belt makes a weird sound in dry dusty conditions. this is caused by a built up of static electricity on the idler wheel. in thick mud it is silent.
You are the best, noticed the front fender.
I have a pinion C12 & what's even better it has a carbon belt drive & 600% of gear ratio ,No maintenance ,I must admit I don't do racing just bike packing but I much prefer it over my SRAM by miles .Also pinion now do one that can electronically change gear under tension , they also do one with a built in motor . I have mine on a Olson Lamb titanium ,It's 3 lbs lighter than my Surly Ogre with a Rohloff & 7lbs lighter than my Thorn Nomad lol .
Thanks Doddy, you're the best !
One of the best accesments of a different tech i have ever had the pleasure to watch and hear. The derailer is mature and will through popularity continue to be developed. What i wouldl like to see is more development of gears and belt drives. Bikes are becoming very refined around the type of riding is most important to a given use. Refinement usually goes hand in hand with expensive so owning multiple bikes optimised for different terrains is becoming less viable. I love to see an all terraine bike which may not excell in all, can allow me to adventure Safely and comfortably in all but the most extreem situations. i live in Australia and use my bike mostly to commute but without almost any bike infrastructure on our roads we are left to the margins which increasingly resemble trails. I figure to be safe i need to go through potholes exit via kerbs if required. A bike that can dymanically switch from road bike to enuro bike as situation demands. All in a super low maintenance gear belt drive package.
internal hub like Rolf with 500+% range with belt drive is the future for mtb. only friction I can feel is when coasting, but when paddling i can' feel the differences between the two with clean/lube chain. when the chain is dry or dirty, definitely increase in friction so a belt will be a better option for internal gears to maximize the benefit. I have seen a mtb with chain stay higher up allow the chain to wrap outside the chainstay. this same design can be apply to the belt drive preventing mount points in seat-stay.
Kinderlay 14 speed over Rolf more range..
Only setup thats prove more range are the 9T cassettes
Yes I would love one of those gearbox 0 maintenance I need to work harder 😃👍🏻
2:21 I always hated having to degrease and re-oil the chain on a regular basis, including after water contact (e.g. rain). You have to keep a set of chemicals, unmount everything, make sure to oil it right. How is this whole setup easy to maintain then?
I wonder if an effigear frame can be made cross compatible with the different drivetrains. Like disconnecting the gear box by means of a sort of translator to move the actual teeth of the gears away from the crank spindle and turn it back into a cassette-style bike.
Shimano Alfine 11 speed Doddy. You will love it!
Now put it in a emtb… that would be the holy grail…the motor will take away the friction issue.
One of the things that break the most and takes most time to maintain is the chain and derailleur. Maby even put on a split peld drive fromm Veer ;)
Sadly this is already yesterday's Effigear.
They've developed the Mimic, wich mimics the Pinion mounting points (pun intended)
And the chain is also on the crank axle, instead of a high pivot.
I think it's great news for us consumers, because bike brands can now make a frame for gearboxes, which are supported by two brands.
I don't understand how additional weight on the rear wheel affects suspension, especially with air shocks where you adjust sag to approximately 30% (give or take).
Like Aaron Gwin's chainless downhill run, I'm curious how a loss of the chain affected his performance (maybe I'm talking about two different things here).
Basically, inertia.
The lighter the wheel less force the suspension will have to overcome to push the wheel on the ground.
If the wheel was 10 kg the suspension would have to do an awful amount of force to stop the wheel bouncing back from the ground and push it down.
Chainless Downhill run: Probably theres videos explaining it, but I think the suspension worked better without the chain to hinder its movement. Maybe Aron took a little more risk knowing he couldn't pedal if he was too slow.
@@GThiele64 thank you!
Such a gearbox is great when riding in winter or in similar bad conditions, it would also be great to have one on e-bikes. But there is always the price question, as of yet i would not prefer gearbox to derailleur not because its technical issues but only because bike with derailleurs cost significally less money.
i think you can solve the problem of the gearbox needing to be in oil and have less oil with a propeler system that flicks the oil round the gears when you pedal
Always feels like a missed opportunity when a gearbox bike isn't paired with the excellent Gates belt drive. I'm waiting for the day when they make a full suspension e-bike with electronic shifting and gates belt drive. That would be perfection!
Not electronic shifting but look at the Nicolai Eboxx.
They have ab ebike version comming out soon...can always ad da gates or veer belt later .
The main thing holding back gearbox bikes for me is the overall aesthetics of the bike and frame design....when the 'big boys' dip their oar in I'm sure that will change though. Right now, I can not say I am that taken by the current looks of the frame designs on offer.
It's a bit odd to prioritise how a bike looks over how it rides IMO 🤷♂️
Hi Doddy, love the show and your enthusiasm for mtb tech. With regards to gearboxes I think they will soon be mainstream, but mostly on e-bikes where the frictional losses will be less noticeable. Leading on from that I think the next step will be some type of semi-automatic transmission, perhaps along the lines of the DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) that Honda have as an option on many of their motorbikes.
Another aspect to deal with: having no rear derailleur allows manufacturers to have symmetrical rear wheels. Easier maintenance of spokes tension and more balanced riding feeling in the rear end.
Really looking forward to having my first gear box bike!
What about how it changes the bb height ? What if you rip into rocks and bottom out. Will the gear box survive? And will the gears inside be ok?
Here’s something else I haven’t heard…s the free hub piece inside the gear box on the Starling? If so, you’d be dodging the upkeep on the free hub, and since my Epic Evo has a rusty free hub after just six months use in a dry place (Arizona), that would make a big difference for me as well.
"now this bike is LOADS heavier.... about 4lbs"
lmao
With regards the extra friction and 10,000 hour service interval: surely running a thinner oil and changing it more frequently would help in that regard?
Well explained as always Doddy. Great vid.
I like the way the Effiegear doesn't output on the input, meaning hopefully no bobbying.
I'd love to ditch the rear mech, I was an early adopter of 1x9, but I like to push big torque on climbs (maybe evident from the 1x9 setup), I hate spinning. I think gearboxes go against my riding style. Not that I don't push on the downhills, just that uphills are kind of defining for me, low (as in high cadence) gears feel like riding through treacle and honestly wear me out more.
In answer to you question re more trail riding. Ryan Duzer from Boulder Colorado uses a Pinion gearbox for his epic bikepacking trips as does the Cycling About dude. Ryan raves about his Pinion set up and i have never heard him lament the friction issue. PS great video, i love everything you guys do. Also that sound track was killer👌
Who´s not looking at the development of for example pinion drives every now and then. I think the interest is super high. I guess everyones just waiting until the evolution of these things have made them to a real alternative. On the other side... starling, forestal, zerode... these are pretty dope already... I guess somebody needs to attempt winning an ews with this some day and then it´ll take off.