StarCraft 1 vs StarCraft 2 ft Grubby
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2024
- New Sc2 Mod has us play Broodwar and Sc2 units
Patreon: / harstem
My second youtube channel: / @harstemcasts
Twitter: / harstemsc2
Twitch: / harstem
Instagram : / harstemsc
#harstem #SC2 #StarCraft2 - Ігри
"I wonder if my race is better than his" -Inventor of racism, circa 10,000 years before present
Nah racism was when they didn't check and just assumed they were.
...also the Ironman triathlete to the marathon runner.
Careful, patch notes were banned 80 years ago.
Well the factions in Starcraft are actually not races, not even species. Since Protoss kind of do photosynthesis they likely belong to a different biological kingdom like plants or fungi (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)).
That's about when people started recording their "holdings"; racism is probably far older than that, unfortunately.
18:35 you can see how playing as Starcraft 1 Terran starts turning you into Artosis
I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed Harstem starting to morph into Artosis
Artosis brain 😂
"thanks guy in chat" - Harstem, probably
And he didnt even encounter Arbiters or Defilers yet
LMAO
5:10 lol the problem is that they don't have the debuff of being unable to walk in a straight line without getting confused on the SCII engine. They behave like normal units in this game.
my thought exactly :D
Right? The dragoon turns into an unmanageable baboon without your controlling input every 3 seconds in BW lol
I hated them misfiring because they decided they needed to be half a centimeter to the right.
In this video Harstem learns why BW gave every race an anti-muta unit.
No, Harstem hasn't seen good muta micro yet.
once harstem discovers Valkyries and irradiate his life will be easier.
Valkyries but the missiles don't despawn😂
defiler dark swarms but they last for ever and multiply them selves by 1 per 5 seconds@@SleepLessThan3
Valkyries would be absolutely strong in this game.
if only dragoon was this smart in bw 🤣
The amount of games I've lost because ny goons couldn't figure out how to get down a ramp
yeah, also goliaths
Artosis would retire 😂
takotachi
*flashback to dragoons walking like drunk spiders and misfiring cuz they crash into everything*
Please, please more of this. This mod is SO fucking cool.
0:30 the Broodwar workers in this mod ARE faster to make up for the lack of chrono/inject/mules. A way of balancing economy
Hearing "My life for Aiur!" tickled something in me that hasn't been tickled in a while.
bw units sound so much better than sc2, esp zealot archon carrier and stimpack ofc
And the audio balance on the Academy scream wasn't so bad either!
That feeling when Harstem is asking "Is it IMBA or do I suck?". Priceless.
I hope he's not serious.
because the answer is obvious, many SC2 players are naturally BW noobs.
It's not an insult, just simply people grow up with the latest games not really having played the older predecessors.
However to call out *IMBA* so soon is a little bit farfetched.
In fact BW is one of the most balanced games, unlike SC2 that has to keep getting constant updates because of imbalances or players crying about it for over 10 years.
Now is it game designed or player skill?
The BW scene has been going strong 26 years and in Korea is still more popular than SC2.
I just hope if there is to be constant whining from SC2 players "BW race X is imba" that it falls on deaf ears.
lol Harstem's excitement over seeing how strong dragoons are compared to stalkers is like the exact inverse of how every bw player felt in 2010 when we played sc2 for the first time
That's what I thought too. ^^ And how fast a Nexus was killed. Losing my first 6(!) SC2 carriers was also a moment I needed a break from this game and returned to BW. But I tried again just to miss the Arbiter because a single mothership couldn't compensate these at all ... Maybe one day there will be a real successor. To me SC2 is more like a CnC. What about you?
I think SC2 is more balanced and requires more scouting and harassment.
The SC1 Carriers were insane.
If I remember correctly, you couldn't select a group of more than 12 units, so 12 Carriers was by far the strongest group you could have built in SC1.
Oh, and there wasn't a Select All Army button. You had to Box Select your units. But they lived longer... kind of. It's a long time since I last played SC1. But IMO the micro was not that huge in SC1. Just point and shoot. There was no blinking, splitting and many micro abilities we now consider normal. If your Macro was insane, you were probably Master Level. A
In SC2 Macro gets you to Platinum the most.
So basically, today's SC2 high platinum or low diamond are at the same level low Master SC1 players were. If you think that players are getting better and better in SC2 at Master level, even high diamond, it's actually a fact. Even many mid-duamond SC2 players are better than low Master SC1 Players
This is just my simple IMO.
@@mihairo83 I kind of agree but also I don't. ^^
Carriers took you so long nearly no game saw 12 of them and if then half of the group was hallucinations. Part of this was because they came without interceptors. So you had to micro them to give them any use.
That's why I don't agree with your less micro statements. Many things in SC2 are automated you had to do by hand in SC1 and BW. Building interceptors, collecting minerals, building scarabs, send drones/SCVs/probes to the minerals/gas after building them and so much more. You couldn't tell SCVs to auto-repair. So the micro was kind of the same.
You also splitted your army and had to scout. And speaking of scouting there haven't been minimap indicators nor could you see what was under the fog of war. So you couldn't see the exact layout of the map if you didn't scout and als building commands had been cancelled if the target area wasn't scouted.
Also scouting and expose stealth was more interconnected. So you needed to manage your anti cloak units. That's why I hate the Select All Army button. Because all observers, ravens and overlords are also moved and make observing the battlefield harder than it should be. That's why you now can make observers stay at a place. But I think it would be more usable if this button could be managed via a menu. So I can choose which units I see as part of the army. Until than this button just isn't for me.
But it fits to another statement of yours I totally agree with: SC2 is way more harassment. You don't stand a chance if you don't do any kind of throw away unit tactics. This game isn't made with a casual player in mind like SC1 and BW had been. It is made around esports. So it is more work then fun if you want to win.
I know today most people don't want to take their time to achieve something but would like to have fast rewards. So SC2 is really compatible with the zeitgeist. Which is also ironic. Nobody wants to work for an achievement anymore so the game gives fast small wins because all units are made of paper but this also means you have to attack over and over to really achieve something. And doing things again and again is also work but in a more stupid way.
So I can't agree to SC2 being more balanced. Quite the opposite is true. Now there are more units doing nearly the same job. Back then there had been dragoons. They did most of what now stalkers, immortals, colossus and sentry do. Blink wasn't a thing because the arbiter had recall. They didn't make hallucinations because templar did these for units you or your opponent really needed to have.
(This took psy energy and is the reason why you also see less psy storms in bw or less hallucinations. It was a choice you had to make. A sacrifice.)
So you have now 20 units which do on its own less then their bw counterparts for the most time. But what they do can be spammed. And this shows again: it was made with esports in mind. You have more action on the screen for the viewer to observe.
That's why you may think a master back than didn't have to do as much as now. Because you couldn't see what's in their brain or on their screen. So it was normal to lose an army when your enemy attacked while you took a new mineral line or gas. Because you had to go to your base draw a box around your workers go to the new resource and click there before you could actively join the fight. But so did he. Same for building units.
Today this and the select only 12 units cap is seen as a bug. But in my opinion it is more like a feature. You had to choose wisely which units got into a group.
And no BW wasn't perfectly balanced. Neither is SC2. In both games 12 zealots are useless against 1 air unit which can shoot ground. For example. But your decisions had more impact.
At least that's my opinion.
Maybe you can get along with some of the points I made here. ^^
@yksnidog Yes. In BW Macro takes more Micro than in SC2. The wrokers are very dumb in SC1 and you have to baby-sit them to find the path.
In BW units have a more general purpose, while in SC2 units have a more specific purpose, especially Toss units.
I never meant to disrespect SC1 players, if it seems that way. In BW you don't really spam APM, like in SC2. But spamming APM in SC2 made the players so fast. The speed in SC2 is insane.
For a casual player like myself, BW is way more stable. Without practice you lose a lot of speed.
BW was about smarter, SC2 is about faster.
I think that in SC2 the difference between a silver, a gold, a plat and a diamond is the speed they play. In diamond+ you do the same things you do in Platinum, but faster, better, tighter.
In BW I think that the difference is made by game understanding and it starts from Macro, splitting workers, the fundamentals etc., while in SC2 I think the difference is made by fast scouting and fast decision making.
Because SC2 units have a more specific role, if you don't have the right army composition, you lose. The time to change it is very limited. Engagements are very fast and your army can melt in 2-3 seconds if you missclick or overstay in a certain position.
When I said that IMO SC2 is more balanced, I thought about the 3 races, all with their strengths and weaknesses, while in BW I think that late-game Toss is OP, while the early-game Zerg is OP.
i still play broodwar, its fun but i doubt new players to rts genre would like the og starcraft since the unit control is much different from sc2. cant play sc2 because i havent updated in a while and the updates i did get for sc2 made my old saves and replays unplayable, such an anti consumer product sc2 is despite the improvements they made :(
also static defenses feel weak for some reason in sc2 compared to broodwar even though canons got an extra hp and shield buff they still melt fast.
BTW. You can use a Dark Archons mind control and take over a worker of a different race and then build as them as well. Insane fun
The BW equivalent of dropping the mules
Can you mind control a probe and build SC2 units?
@@DrewMiller1 Yup
@@gloriousblobber9647 do you have a separate supply cap for the other race like in SC1?
@@DrewMiller1That's how it works in BW, you get 200 of each race. I don't know if it'll be different or shared supply cap if you MC a SC2 Protoss
As someone who cut his teeth on Warcraft 2 and OG Starcraft, it hurts my soul that you've only played a handful of Brood War games.
I love how you where saying Zerg must be so OP in Broodwar while being able to just spam the basic unit of the Terran faction and win
tbf doesn't he have like 500 elo over grubby
Hey! Thanks a lot for playing Evo Complete, however i need to point out what was played in this vid was actually Evolution Complete Crossover, which is not SC1 vs SC2! it is a lot more experimental and has several additions, and we are also not currently updating it.
So what should we be playing if we want this but the most updated version
@@miza6 SC: Evolution Complete, not legacy or crossover.
any instructions for how to download? i cant figure it out
@@OnyxOfMadness go to custom - melee - create with mod - search SC: Evo Complete - done
This has sparked new life into sc2 ... this could be the future of SC competittive scene . You sir have lighthing in a bottle right here. Grats
Anyone have a full name of this map/mod?
Found the solution in another video I'll paste the information here:
"To find this mod: launch StarCraft 2, create a custom melee match, select 'Create with Mod' at the bottom and type SC: Evo Complete Crossover Edition"
22:27
Many thanks for putting this in the chat
BW Protoss has arbiter, which is a crazy unit. It has a cloaking field which is nice, but the main thing is that it can cast stasis, which freezes a big group of opponents forever. Like so long. 43 seconds. You can totally freeze a fleet of battlecruisers or carriers for long enough to build air defense if you want to. Its insane
The stun durations are just ridiculous in brood war, like a couple ghosts against a fleet of battlecruisers completely disables them for like 30 seconds, and you can ATTACK THEM WHEN THEY'RE FROZEN
@@hangover89 Pretty much all of the "magic" in the game is insanity. Defilers have a "become invincible against terran" spell lmfao.
yeah, BW spellcasters are kinda busted compared to those in SC2. oneshotting any ground unit and turning it into broodlings? permanently mind controlling enemy units including workers to build their stuff? blinding clouds on steroids? stunning stuff like forever? speaking lategame my money will almost always be on BW races.
@@hangover89 thats the best part, it encourages to mix up army compositions, each unit had a role, you didnt have to build every single unit but you couldnt spam mono units and win. lots of counter play and more importantly defense structures actually made a difference
This mod is taking SC2 by storm it seems... dude I would love if they just officially added the BW races as separate factions to the vanilla game. That would spice things up so hard.
Would be nice if they added BW races to ladder.
I'll be honest I thought Harstem was about to learn how much he needed to respect the Defiler at 20:00, but his opponent teched into a queen instead. Literally 2 defilers could have ruined his entire life with plague, and we got blueballed. Maybe eventually.
Grubby is not really known for broodwar. He was a WC3 world champion though.
Was hoping for the defiler too ..
14:16 made me drop my phone haha, wasn't ready for harstem's reaction
harstem complaining about sc1 balance sounds like the average IODIS submission lol
This mod is taking over the starcraft community
As it should. BW's spirit and SC2's convenience.
100% i would love to see some tournys at the pro level. Take my money!
@@jeronp420 there is one going on in korea atm
@@jeronp420 There is a SC1 pros vs SC2 pros tourney sponsored by AfreecaTV tomorrow!
It's much better than Starbow ever was
in brood war you could mind control a drone or scv and get another 200 supply worth of units for a while as I recall.
You can also do this in SCII with infestors and neural parasite, but you don't get the extra supply. I used to love stealing a worker and maxing out with a protoss air army as zerg in the corner of the map.
Never thought I would live to see the day where dragoons were called busted
"These guys are cracked, what the hell"
They were called "cracklings" back in the day for a reason.
Also, if you're playing BW Terran, you have to make a few siege tanks. They do 70+5 per upgrade.
@21:34 You can save replays in BW! Unfortunately in the early days, saves were prone to corruption. More than once I wanted to show someone a cool game I played, only to have the replay be totally different from the actual game.
I know, buddy, it would happen to me every time I beat flash or bisu, my replays KEPT getting corrupted?? 😫
Dragoons have weakness in broodwar. They move really clunky and are very dumb.
In TvZ , terran wins early game, until zerg gets the most busted unit against it. The defiler.
The big reason the defiler is busted is because dark swarm doesn’t affect lurkers. Makes it impossible for Terran to engage Zerg. Then Zerg can win with the actual strongest BW unit. The zergling.
Terran should use sci-vessels with irradiate against defilers. But most the time will be dead against marine+tank push or drop.
I think in this mod medics are attacked like normal units. In bw they had lower targeting priority and were blocking Path for the lings to get to marines. That's why it was so damn hard to survive against T as Z.
This is why maintaining a high Vessel count is very important in TvZ. Zerg generally doesn't have the gas to mass produce Defilers, so you need plenty of Vessels with Irradiate to slap them and their horde of Lurkers down before they're eating your SCVs.
And yeah, half of the updates BW added in the expansion was to counter Mutas.
@@CenJohan The defiler is OP because the only unit that can get through dark swarm were Firebat , seige tank splash. And yeah, cracklings were the highest DPS per mineral
Imagine the horror of a reaver drop to a mineral line. There is literally no way to counter it when reaver is landed
Saw some cast from winter and it was brutal
You can pull workers or just be prepared for it beacuse they are going to do it because shuttle reaver is amazing
And there's no dud scarabs 😬
The sound of BroodWar SCVs mining is one of my favorite sounds
"Reavers - I've heard of those" 😂
Watching you play Terran and pushing out basically around 5 minutes with a group of marines and medics was pretty cool.
More of these videos please!! Watching Harstem discover dragoons was incredible. Can’t wait to see him discover firebats, goliaths and defilers
OMG, the eraser in hands of (edited, originally wrote Grubby, though it still applies) Harstem is going to be disgusting. AND he loves Dark Archon woo!
On another hand - this ought to teach Harstem some empathy towards IODIS peeps :D so many "this is busted" while not using the key countermeasure.
Right???
Wouldn't mind seeing Artosis Mald against ur toss 😂
Wow. Great video, Harstem. You so quickly and intuitively realized the frustration of every Terran player since 1998. Would love to see you and Arty or Scarlett play(go Canada!). You can really feel Gruby's mad wc3 micro at work too. Thanks for this!
Dragoon in BW has very bad pathfinding that is why it is balance lol
Zergling in BW is completely busted but they can be wipe out entirely with just a few Firebats. Also Siege Tank in BW is super strong.
Also Terran can win with just Vulture+Mine. Ahhh I missed the good old stupid Dragoon/Goliath day lol All races have OP spellcasters to the point that they balanced each others out!
yeah feels like lategame BW is all about spellcasting
With sc2 engine. Bw spellcasters even more op. Imagine the potential ghosts lockdown all BC/carriers.
@@PeteZhaoCA or rapid-fire plaguing everything, or casting huge zones of dark swarm. infestors' fungals and shrouds are balanced by their relative weakness, but these two complemetary spells are much more stronger, especially dark swarm
“Wtf is a creep colony” never change, captain
This brings back so much nostalgia for me! So happy to see Harstem discovering BW for the first time. Great to see!
Two of my favorite RTS dudes on the web, just having a fun time in a cool new mod. This is the kind of content I love waking up to!
This brought so much joy to my old BW Protoss heart.
Balance in Starcraft 1 was directly proportional to how hard they were to use. Spellcasters were blatantly overpowered because there was no smart cast system and you needded them on separate hotkeys to use spells individually. Dark archons were hard to use because they were a huge target and easy to focus, but their spells were stupidly overpowered.
Defilers, same thing, crazy good but difficult to use and easy to snipe.
The Dragoon, you could generally win with mass dragoon they're extremely strong but they were notoriously retarded. Their pathing gave SC1 players PTSD. Going up a ramp with more than one of them was an achievement worthy of a medal.
Also for mass muta you can either tech into goliaths but the best option is the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie shreds Mutas straight up
I'm so happy to see a collab with Grubby! You two are my favorite RTS players to watch, and I've been hoping for a collab where you teach him higher level sc2 or he teaches you higher level wc3. Hoping for more in the future!
I really wanna see Clem play SC1 marines/medics. Also i just LOVE the SC1 sound affects. "Jacked up and good to go" so good.
lol Harstem's comments are hilarious. It's really funny to see a SC2 pro with no background with Brood War playing it. Looking forward to more show matches and maybe even against some SC1 pros!!
Someone needs to show Day9 this mod. He’s been big on discussing the key differences between BW and SC2.
Ok, now we NEED an episode of "Is it IMBA or do I suck?" where Artosis judges Harstem's Evo/BW replay.
Dragoons with unethical actual pathfinding is OP
I absolutely love your attitude and narrative - you're such a nice and entertaining guy!
The Brood War music and feel always beats StarCraft 2's even tho the latter has better balance, is more modern and improved on many other gameplay aspects.
Btw this is one of your best ideas, definitely try to invite others like you mentioned in the video.
SC1 sound in general is better, more trash metal sci-fi feel.
It's so interesting watching a pro learn SC in reverse, it's like a rare insight into how a pro level player problem solves
The voice lines, the music, so nostalgic! Please more of this 😁
I would love to see more of this mod. It's really cool to see SC1 vs SC2.
Day after day artosis is slowly becoming more relatable
i wanted to see his reaction agaisnt the defiler in the second game or the forever slow from the queen's vomit
halucinated units to think dragoons are op made me laugh so hard XD
Oh wow, you could mind control his probe and then build all the units
"What are these? Goliaths? I heard they are good... But I don't want them!"
Super fun to watch! I loved SC back in the day, I’d be happy to watch more, especially you vs artosis
All the good Protoss spells were taken and given to Zerg in sc2.
I always believed Blizzard should have split the 3 Starcraft factions into Rebels (SC1) and Loyalists (SC2) like what SINS did. The factions list are:
Terran Raiders (TR) [Terran Rebels]
Terran Dominion (TD) [Terran Loyalists]
Zerg Overmind (ZO) [Zerg Rebels]
Zerg Queen (ZQ) [Zerg Loyalists]
Protos Khala (PK) [Protos Rebels]
Protos Scion (PS) [Protos Loyalists]
i have seen several streamers cast these games and i am loving it
“Does everyone in sc1 know that zerg is just absolutely unbeatable?”
You are preaching to the choir my friend
This mod has been a blast; been playing it everyday for the past week or so. It would be amazing for this to have its own ranked setting in the versus mode.
I would LOVE some more show matches with this mod! super fun stuff
Best Harstem quote of all time, "this is really sick. I can actually play bw without having to play all the other crap." agreed.
Grubby's micro is so sick. Like he tries to save every little unit, and use the individual skills of each unit to maximum efficiency. Someone should tell Grub that SC1/2 is not WC3 where units are expensive and where losing even one or two units more than allowed can cost you the whole game. Of course, Grubby knows this as a fomer SC2 pro.
I watched the series through Grubby's perspective, too, and he was clearly upset and frustrated that he couldn't perform at a high level. He didn't expect to beat Harstem, but he expected to do better than he did. The guy beats himself down so hard. Even though he retired from profesional SC2 9 years ago and is beyond rusty, you could see in his stream that he was trying SO hard to win But this is the mentality that led him to become a World Champion in WC3.
And speaking of WC3, Harstem, everyone wants to watch you play a Back2WC Weekly cup. Unlike All-Star Tournament or TeD Cup, this is open to amateurs and doesn't require qualification. Your friend, MaxPax already tried. It would also bring more viewers to your stream since WC3 fans usually watch all RTS games.
Really cool mod. Like Harstem said it would be sick to see brood war pros play off against starcraft 2 pros.
So awesome seeing Harstem's excitement over playing Brood War units when you've know those units since 1998.
Really nice seeing Harstem just spontaneously jump into what seems to be a weird alternate reality Broodwar :D
This is the collab i've been dreaming about
Harstem, a common tactic in BW for Terran was to line the perimeter with missile turrets because of how powerful mutas and air units were and you had to cluster them in groups of at least three. Marine/Medic was stupidly strong but Interestingly, Mech was really, really strong for Terran, especially with spider mines from vultures, the 70 damage from Siege tank shots in siege mode, and of course, goliaths with their annoyingly long range missile boosts. Meanwhile Zerg had defilers which were just dirty, the queens were degenerate as heck, and naturally the protoss had Dark Archons and High Templar spell nonsense. Psystorm in SC1 did 130 I wanna say. It was really good at melting bio, and one of the big reasons why Terrans lean heavy into mech.
I like that he waited for the gg back, that’s very mannerly, more sc2 players should do that. The winner expects a person to bow out gracefully without returning the bow, it’s much more humble when both partake
Gotta do another one of these, loved watching this
Lotsa fun with this, would love to see a series
I love watching these and seeing how much of Broodwar Harstem doesn't know about. :3
This is so fun, please play more of this
This is sick, there's a lot of fun in the relative simplicity of BW unit design.
"dragoons are nuts" wait until he starts using reavers
LOVE the brood war sfx
Now the pros is taking notice on this, love to watch the pros play this kind of set up 👍.
Excellent video! really nice seeing you do some arcade material. I really enjoy the arcade material and have enjoyed it since the galaxy editor first became available on launch day back when sc2 was just a few hours old. pretty awesome.
this small breath of fresh air is good for myStarcraft 2
I liked how mana dunked some carriers on you when u went mass oracle immortal collosi. That was hilarious
I like seeing the menu it shows how quickly you are playing it’s kind of cool
With sc2 engine. I am waiting for someone to mass bw ghosts then lock all the BCs/carriers. It will be insane
Realizing that Harstem has never played starcraft 1 is blowing my mind
...and making me feel old.
Please make more of these! I’d like to see you try out the other races too :) it’s neat to have an SC2 pro’s perspective on the old skills.
4:28 Harstem tried to chrono boost it haha
Watching harstem learn sc1 is pretty hilarious
For sure more of this!!!
This mod will become SC3! That would be so sick!!
That looks really fun :D
Definitly have to try this out with some Friends
Brood War with grouping buildings, the possibility to select more than 12 units, automatic batteries?? That's like a biggest Brood War patch everyone wanted😄
I'd actually love to see you playing some brood war on this channel
Build 3-4 valkiries and all the mutas are bye bye, then battlecruisers as the finisher.
lmao dragoons that don't get stuck in ramps and moves freely
Still to this day i love the sound of the Terran Academy.
Starcraft 1 spellcasters are all busted as fuck. but in broodwar its insanely hard to control them, which balances it out
Interesting how they tried to balance Dragoons for this. They used to do 20 explosive damage, so they did only half damage vs small units like Marines, Zerglings etc., but full damage vs big units like Carriers, Dragoons, Tanks etc. Here they are basically still similar except with an anti-Protoss bias.
You are correct in assuming most BW Terran players just mass M&M, however science vessels are important for irradiate to deal with mutalisk clumps, so you had the right idea to tech them. They’re gas heavy, mineral light so the resource spending works in your favour.
A few firebats to deal with mass zerglings doesn’t hurt either, though they’re usually food for lurkers. If you can stim your bats and send them into a mineral line its drone flambe!
Valkyries are also great vs mutas and the SC2 AI seems to dramatically improve their effectiveness. However, you won’t have armor/weapon upgrades for them in time so more of a niche unit since they can only attack air.
I'm surprised the shield battery works automatically