I'm part of the Dark Side... I bought my five Gyokucho brand Japanese saws about a month ago. I absolutely love them. The five saws cost me the same as a buying a single American Style saw from LV. At 54 years, back issues, post cancer etc. The Japanese saws cut through Hard Maple and Cherry with about 40 to 50% of the effort required compared to an American style saw. When cutting with the proper Japanese technique, and proper body stance, I can do cut after cut without feeling wiped out, sore and tired. My cutting accuracy is better. The cut's are amazingly clean and smooth. Less waste and sawdust to clean up. Strangely though, every time I use my new saws, the dog and I get a craving for Asian food.
Have to agree with this, after using the western saws for so long I recently had the chance to try a friend's japanese saw and was very surprised at how little effort it takes to cut, as I was expecting the smaller blade to require more force but its much easier!
EDITED for spelling: I used western saws for about 45 years, yet within weeks of buying my Japanese saws I found I was able to cut more accurately with the Japanese saws. I still have uses for my Swedish saw though; I use it when cutting up reclaimed wood if I have any suspicion that there may be any nails or screws lurking within. The Swedish saw is pretty quick to cut through most types of wood and it’s sometimes a good workout breaking down old furniture with it. Making something new from wood obtained that way is my favourite form of recycling!
I learned sawing with the Western style saw and after years still couldn't stay on a straight line. I bought a Japanese style saw and within an hour or so of practice I was able to cut well enough to cut tenons accurately. As an old dog I was able to learn a new trick !!
Love my Japanese Saws, i love that they can make super thin cuts. But i also use western saws as well but mainly use the western saw for rough dimensions, Japanese ones for precision.
Same for me as well. I use both alot. I still cant give up the ol western saws tho. In a way both have a genuine mystique feeling about them. I love them both. Western saws for rough work and Japanese for joinery. The Japanese saws make me feel like a pro with lots of precision and the western saws make me feel like a farm boy again. Use em both and have fun. Sawing wood feels just about as good as planing.
I was googling the difference between the two and this video answered every question I had. This should really be the go to for Japanese vs Western hand saws. Well done! Very entertaining too, I've learned a lot
In the Oct 2015 Fine Woodworking Andrew Hunter wrote an article that convinced me to try Japanese before Western saws. After using saws on my bench I tried the Japanese saw horses for longer rip and cross cuts. Because they rely a lot on body weight and balance, it became kind of dicey to get the best mechanics. In the end I built a 10" high version of your western saw bench as a hybrid optimized for my pull saws. High enough to get a full depth pull, wide enough to stabilize body position, deep enough to add clamps, low enough for full body movement. Point being...your western saw bench design inspired my Japanese saw bench and vastly improved my comfort and accuracy with the saws.
James, I need to send you a photo and action shot. Thanks for indulging my rambling comment. Always glad to make you laugh in exchange for all your good teaching.
I actually bought a very similar priced 9.5" Ryoba on the recommendation of another channel and got the opportunity this morning to try it out and absolutely love the way it cut. I've used western saws my entire life and never touched a Japanese saw until today and will likely not be going back. Thank you for the excellent content!
I keep at least 3 IRWIN ryoba saws around all my helpers have one handy. in a home and you need just a few trim pieces they are great just cut it overall a 5 gallon bucket & no flying dust to clean up which is unproductive time. I keep my good ones from wood craft at home I have a really nice ryoba and duzuky with the katana getting ordered. Keep em coming
I was put off at the beginning of the video where you acknowledged little experience with Japanese style saws. I have grown both weary and war of DFs on YT going on about topics they know little about. But I stuck with the vid to the end. It seemed balanced and informative for one at my novice level. So I subscribed. Keep up the good work!
Thanks. I try not to talk about topics I have no experience with but this is one of those topics that I get questions about all the time and thought it would be wise to talk through why I do it the way I do it
I'm mainly a power tool woodworker, so I don't spend that much time with hand saws. I started off with a set of Veritas Saws, unfortunately I could not get consistent decent results. Granted I didn't use them to often, but I would use them even less because I couldn't get nice straight cuts. Woodcraft had a sale a while back on some Japanese Saws and I decided to give them a try, much better results for me, I'm finally able to get square repeatable cuts. I like the look and feel of the Veritas Saws, but obviously that doesn't mean much if the cut sucks. In my experience, I see western Saws as more of an expert saw, certainly capable of getting great results, but requires more patience and practice to get there than a Japanese Saw. Someone like myself who uses hand tools as a complement to primarily power tools would likely be better served with a Japanese Saw.
alot of people starting out have the same reason. the reason it is easier to keep a straight line is the saw is guided by the teeth that enter the cut. with the western saw any small guidance will move the direction of the cut as the handle is on the guiding side of the cut. with the Japanese style, the handle is on the side that has very little control of the cut so the saw will track straight and true as it is not being over controlled. top that off with little or no set and the saw is extremely stable as long as you line it up correctly to start.
I really like to use both and regularly alternate. I find I get less aches and pains doing this rather than spending a whole day using just one style. I guess it depends how much sawing you have to do in one session. Hope you enjoy dipping your toe into Japanese saws James
I'm terrible with a western saw but as a cook the Japanese saw worked amazing for me it feels almost the same as using a bread knife for me. You do the motion but let the knife do the work
I love my new Ryoba pull saw. I have less arm and joint fatigue since getting this saw when compared to using a western saw. The crosscut blade works great for starting the ripping cuts as well as it has very little tear out. I think I need a whole set of these saws now!
What timing. I just bought a Japanese pull saw this morning. I thought I would give it a try and am building a wooden mallet using it. For me I feel like there is more control on the pull. Thanks for the video as always.
thanks man. that is interesting as the control is on the far side of the board for Japanese saws. and on your side for western saws. that is usually an indication that the user is forcing the western saw. as a Japanese in not as easily controlled because there is not control on the far side of the board. That is why some people do better with one than the other. but you never know tell you try.
I have a couple "Shark Saw" brand Japanese saws and I love them. The plastic handles don't feel cheap, they're made in Japan, and they're only about 20-40 bucks a piece depending on the specific saw and where you look. So, comparable to the Suizan saws you like. They also have a line of nicer ones with the wrapped handle (under the name "takumi") but I haven't tried those out - they seem to be more in the Gyokucho price range. I agree on the very cheap ones - the stanley, irwin, dewalt, etc. pullsaws I saw in hardware stores and home depot honestly look and feel a lot worse. Another advantage that the replaceable-blade saws have is that you can disassemble them for storage in a toolbox, taking up a little more than half the length. They're handy to keep in an on-the-go toolbox or just locked away where the kids won't play with them.
I love my Japanese saws. Only downside of the pull stroke is that it tends to obscure your cut line with saw dust (since both the layout and dust expulsion are happening on the same side).
Nice discussion of the two styles of saws James. I'll add my two cents and say that after purchasing and trying both stlyes, I do find it easier to make straight and plumb cuts with the Japanese saws than the Western style. I've heard that's the advantage of cutting on the pull stroke...it's easier to keep the cut straight and plumb and that is definitely true in my case. Love your videos, keep up the outstanding work. Mike
actually, the reason it is easier to keep a straight line is the saw is guided by the teeth that enter the cut. with the western saw any small guidance will move the direction of the cut as the handle is on the guiding side of the cut. with the Japanese style, the handle is on the side that has very little control of the cut so the saw will track straight and true as it is not being over controlled. top that off with little or no set and the saw is extremely stable as long as you line it up correctly to start.
I've observed this straighter tracking with my Japanese saws but never worked out exactly why it happened. Guiding teeth, and set. Thanks for clearing that up!
The gyokucho Ryoba is hands down one of the best pullsaws. And at only $40 it was $30 less than my veritas dovetail saw, which is a great saw but I really like my ryoba much more
I've seen lots of videos on Japanese saws as of late. I noticed sometimes you can purchase saws specifically listed as " for hardwood". Is this important if you are cutting into hardwoods, or is it ok to buy the "regular" listed Japanese saws? And can you use to cut into softwoods to with these "hardwood" saws. I don't see a lot of UA-cam videos mention the specifically designed hardwood Japanese saws or if you have to go through the trouble of buying it specifically to cut into hardwoods. Your thoughts? thx
Like many of your followers I can say this was a very informative video. I use both western and Japanese saws but am using the Japanese saws more and more for the finer work. I have two Veritas carcass saw that I use for jut about all rough work. I thin the main difference in learning how to use Japanese saw is, as you mentioned, body mechanics , body stance and, of course, the work bench.
the only time i ever liked pushing strokes was on a large crosscut saw cutting a log in half, easier to get really long rhythmic strokes. i like pulling better overall but you have to pace yourself, for accuracy and to not fatigue
Three things not mentioned here, which are worth considering: 1. Western saws are better for long ripping cuts. This is because the chisel like rip teeth are oriented to cut with the grain when you're over a board and pushing down. With a Japanese saw, you're actually pulling up from under the fibers going against the grain, which can cause it to catch, vibrate, pull the board up, and is generally uncomfortable and not as efficient. You can cut from underneath the board with a Japanese saw, or clamp the board vertically, but this is generally a bit awkward. 2. Japanese saws can be used when working on the floor much easier, both because they're smaller, and because they cut on the pull stroke, so you can support the board with your foot or hand as opposed to needing to kneel over it or have it in a vise. 3. Japanese saws actually do have a small amount of set. You can sharpen and set the good ones yourself, but it's difficult to do with a Ryouba because the set on both sides need to match perfectly or one side will interfere with the other during deep cuts.
My 4 yr old daughter says I need to get her some Japanese saw now😂 I prefer Japanese personally. Thx for another great video! Look forward to seeing you incorporate the Japanese saws in your work 👍
thank you. this is very informative. i use mostly western saws due to that's all i knew of. i do want a Japanese saw especially for flush cutting. will check out the link
Right on. That's the big difference between hand tools and power tools. With hand tools it's the skill and using the tool. With power tools it's the skill and setting up the tool.
It's super interesting how woodworking techniques developed separately in Japan vs Western Europe. Two biggest differences I've seen is A.How the work is held, and maybe more importantly, B.Whether certain resources were plentiful, namely glue, iron, and very large trees. Things much easier to come by in Europe than Japan.
Thanks for the more or less bias free evaluation of the differences! Most pro-Japanese saw people.... the way they describe it, they may as well be light sabers.
I think the key determinant for a lot of individuals should be "who else do you know that does woodworking?" There's a lot of value if you can troubleshoot any issues related to sawing with someone in the flesh: having them critique your form, or answering questions. However, if the only people you know IRL that share this hobby with you use a different style saw than you, you're probably just going to get a "I don't have that problem" or worse, their going to be trying to give uninformed feedback.
yup. there is one of the spots that a western saw is usually a lot easer. I will be showing it from time to time, but that might make a full video sometime in the future. thanks!
I only have Japanese saws .Maybe have a look at the cost compair story because a good western saw isnt cheap aswell;) i bought my japanese Tajima GNC-300 saw for around 14 dollars ( online on taobao ,the Chinese amazon).
When I was introduced to woodwork in the 70's (I'm old) We had no knowledge of the Japanese saws or where to get them. So a factor to be added is what you grew up with, and as you say your body mechanics and muscle memory. I do have a couple of mid quality Japanese saws but use them rarely. mostly for flush cut of dowels or joints on small boxes.
ahhh finally...i have been waiting for you to cover this topic after watching other woodworking channels cover it. Your kinda my favourite teacher. hue3
Wood By Wright haaa james.... u did and i learnt a lot from you. Last year i still sent my saws to other people to get it sharpened. Last month i restored and refurbished 4 old german made backsaws. Reworking the teeth and profiling and later sharpening it. I even managed to switch the steel back with a brass back. Later i bring my reworked saws to some veteran carpenters just to get some opinion and review and boy I glad i did so. Those guys wanted my saw and one even willing to buy it from me. Of course, as a tool hoarder im not selling but it feels good. Hopefully, as long as you are abled to, i hope you continue what you are doing. Ive learned and improved a lot learning from you and other woodworking channels. Thank you
I lie the western style personally, but it's pretty hard to find an old one that will do the really fine work. I've picked up a couple disston back saws, but they're still to thick for fine detail work (in my hands at least). I may try another Japanese saw soon as some kind of weird nerve thing on top of tendinitis is making it tough to do things with my bugger panel saws
I have used both and do not have much luck with the Japanese pull saws in American hardwoods. The Japanese saws are more suited for softwoods unless you don't mind breaking teeth off in your hardwood.
Love the Video, James! For the two cents worth (and you might want change...lolz) I started with western style saws... I was HORRIBLE... For years and years upon years, I couldn't get a straight line to save my backside... {you've probably already read a story similar} THEN I found out about the Japanese Pull Saw... Got my first Ryoba from Harbor Freight... AND watched a couple vid's that featured them, original Japanese workers... (I didn't know better... so watch and attempt to emulate)... AND it was fascinating. I could cut straight.. Like even the first time out of the gate with this thing... AND it just chewed through oak like nothing! THEN... (lolz) I tried emulating similar to those videos with a western saw (the same piece of crap that had pissed me off so many times already)... AND... Weirdly enough... The hand hold didn't work so went back, but the foot work... The STANCE was what did the damn thing. Lead with your left toe just slightly (assuming saw in the RIGHT hand)... Hold the saw "normal"... As Matt Estlea likes to say, gently... It should just rest on your middle finger, the others resting into the handle... You know... I'm not going to sit here and tell you slashing wood with a Japanese Saw is light cutting butter with a hot knife, nor am I going to lament that I wasted money on the Ryoba. I have three THREE now, Vaughan Bear Saws... AND I love them dearly. So there's that. What I take away is that finding out how to stand and take your poise, similar to a chef with a knife for those infinitely repeated cuts... slivers... Just the slight angle to let your arms move STRAIGHT, makes all the difference. Find a preference of saw for the cut, and some folks just have an easier time pulling than pushing (or vice versa)... BUT find a saw that fits YOU, and then stand or crouch or take position PROPERLY... That angle has everything to do with whether you're about to make a cut, or get into a fight with your tool... AND almost nobody teaches that part, not openly, anyways... I switch from push to pull saw depending on where exactly I'm trying to work. Some of the place here has space enough and the panel saws are great for just moving wood... If I have a large number of cuts to make, and the mitre-box is the thing to get, then the backsaw that fits it is a jewel... even at four bucks... and some elbow grease to clean the thing. If I'm in the little bity shop with zero extra clearance... then the ryoba or smaller dovetail (mines a cheapo pistol gripped goob) makes it not take for friggin' ever... AND of course, if I have someone (a client or other noob' student type) trying to help out... I just pass a pull saw and hope for the best. They almost can't screw it up... and I can usually just clean up the cut later. SO... highly appreciate the evaluation, and yes... I know... The cheaper Japanese Style Saws are more kerf and work... but they do perform reasonably well for no more than they cost... ...AND with the Vaughan series (I can't really speak about the others)... You CAN "transplant" the pistol grip handle from one to any of the other blades. There are slight differences in plate thickness (and thus kerf, stiffness, etc...) BUT any of their blades will fit and function on any of their handles... just in case you (or someone else) were interested. ;o)
Interesting, I suppose if just want to have nice tools I can understand buy expensive hand saws. From the perspective of pro, I just go with the Bahco throw away saws, much easier to have a nice new sharp saw every time you need one. And to be honest, they get the same job done as an expensive saw.
Nice explanatory video. Hopefully lots of new woodworkers find this. This will be very helpful. I use mainly Japanese saws because they were what I could afford when I started out, like you said they are very affordable. Now I'm very good with them and do not feel and controlled or accurate with western saws. I will say I use my western saw for ripping. It goes a lot faster then even my biggest Ryobo saw. But those Japanese saw cut joinery soooo nice!
@@cilofono Ergonomics researchers can demonstrate far more waggle With Any push-style (Western) saw versus the pull types. I have found that any Pull-style saw has too much leverage movement due to handle lengths. My ideal saw would be J pull with their typically low/no tooth set attached to Western pistol grip handle. Less leverage with little waggle.
So, western woodworkers use western saws and Japanese saws. The big question is: Do Japanese woodworkers only use Japanese saws (or do they just call them "saws") or do they also see a need for western saws?
It depends on the Japanese woodworker. If they focus on traditional Japanese woodworking then they just use Japanese saws. However, a lot of Japanese woodworkers use both just like Western woodworkers.
I think you're talking about the rubbo frame saw? I have a couple videos on making those if you want to see them. It's mostly used for ripping large amounts of stocks or resawing lumber
Hi, your remarks about the set of Japanese saws are not quite correct. There are some with no set, most most have one, though it not as much as western style saws. You can check if a saw has set by pushing it blade down on a surface and moving it around with a bit of pressure. The ones without set are intended for flush sawing and are usually smallish.
Wood By Wright I think you'll find they do have some set on the rip cut teeth, though small enough you could be forgiven for thinking they don't. The only Japanese saws that have no set at all are Kugihiki, the generally small ones meant specifically for flush cutting. Looking at your links I see that your small one there is in fact a Kugihiki (a rather big one.) You might consider getting a Kataba, which looks a lot like your flush cutter in that it doesn't have a spine, but has a thicker blade and is generally better for ripping long hardwood stock than the Ryoba because of its variable tooth pitch. It too will have a set to the teeth.
Everyone is different. the western saw gives the user far more control as the side that guides the cut is on your side. A lot of people use Japanese because they are over controlling a western saw. with a Japanese saw, it just cuts and you have to use over control to get it to change direction.
I guess I'm what you'd call a 'hybrid woodworker'. I use my table saw and other power tools for milling boards, and more hand tools for fine joinery. I would argue that Japanese style saws are better for the hybrid woodworker (I have both, western style Lie Nielsen joinery saws and cheaper Japanese saws). Japanese saws are more intuitive to use, make cleaner cuts, are cheaper, don't leave as much blowout on the back side of a board, and can be more easily used with jigs such as homemade miter boxes to ensure you get perfect 90 or 45 degree cuts. The only disadvantage to the Japanese saws is that they can't be sharpened, but since their use is tempered by the fact that power tools are used for most dimensioning their lifespan is extended.
Very true. There are a lot of people that feel the opposite as it is a very personal choice, but that being said I feel much the same way. if you are just using them every now and then they do have a lot of benefits.
@Chris P, I think the amount you use hand tools to dimension lumber contriubtes greatly to preference of Western vs Japanese. I started out hand tools only, I have lie nielsen dovetail, crosscut, and tenon saw. Also a nice collection of old Disston and Keen Kutter panel saws (my D12 is pristine). When I was dimensioning lumber by hand the rugged western saws were way superior. I could make long rips quickly too. Since I started depending on my table saw for these operations my panel saws have gotten less use, same for my joinery saws. The fine cuts that can be produced by japanese saws is superior for joinery, which is what my hand tool usage has turned into once becoming 'hybrid'.
The teeth are off set in a hand saw because it leaves room for the rest of the blade to go through. Otherwise, your blade will rub on the sides of the cut it made, increasing the friction and making it more difficult to cut.
One point of fact in an otherwise very good video - japanese saws do have set. It's just extremely thin. If there was zero set, they'd bind on every cut. My kataba has a 1.2mm kerf, which doesn't sound like a lot - but the plate is actually only 0.7mm wide (that's before the taper grind). That's 0.25mm set on each side of the blade. It's not much, but it's definitely not nothing.
There is the special case of the flush cut saws - they often only have set to one side, or no set at all. But they're not something you're going to be using for anything more than trimming.
I was not as clear on that point and made it sound like all do not. sorry. Many of them do have set. but most of the ones I have had do not have set, and most in the lower price range do not.
Good comparison! The teeth on a standard japanese saw do have a set to the teeth just fyi. The finer japanese saws will have a very narrow set to the teeth to make the finished surface nicer.
Does it mean something that you continually picked up the American dovetail saw and a general purpose Japanese saw when you should have picked up the more specialized Japanese (Dozuki?) saw to compare usage? I know you do know better but subconsciously?? Still a bit "Americanized" I reckon.
I am at a loss for words... I just.. I can't... Why? Actually, I have a couple pull saws and a couple western saws. They each have their place. I seriously doubt re-sawing would be much fun with a pull saw though.
Haha, I tried this one time when I didn't have any Western style saws. I tried resawing a 18" X 8" mahogany board with my 14ppi Ryoba. It may or may not have taken three hours, I'll never tell. I went out and bought a $20 9 ppi Dewalt at Home depot and it took 15 minutes to take a second slice.
Oh Cut it out.... Best I can do. Good talk on saws. I am a tool nut. I like to collect and try to master as many tools as I can. I have mostly western saws. most of what I carry with me is power tools though. One exception is a small Tool box saw. it is about ten years old. the teeth are set and sharpened (about 30 degrees); almost no set more like a Japanese saw. And it is sharpened on both sides it truly cuts on both the push and pull. The wooden handle has one edge that makes the blade a 90 degree marking square and another that makes the blade a 45 degree marking tool. I also carry a handle that will Turn any reciprocating saw blade into a manual hand saw.
I actually had no idea until now that our saws are meant to be pushed. I guess I never put much thought to it, but pushing is so much less comfortable movement compared to pulling. I gotta get a Japanese saw now.
10 min video to talk about pull vs push. I'd think you could have used them side by side to showcase the differences. Like quality of cut, which performs faster (even having your western background) and any issues you run into while cutting. I use western myself though I have used Japanese. I'm considering a move back to Japanese as I can't seem to escape tear out with western saws. Either way, HUGE fan of your vids but this one let me down a little.
Came here to say this. A demo would be great. I've actually never considered using 2 hands with my Japanese saws so that would've been really interesting to watch. I've always one-handed them.
Im sorry but the breathing is very disturbing so maybe the audio is a bit high? Because i mean im watching this on my phone and i dont have the sound volume on very high. But its not really a problem. Nice video
You can walk around with the Japanese saw in your back pocket and impact hanging off your watch pocket. When doing small repairs in houses that shouldn't take long I bring those and some screws or a hammer, nails, and the saw... Instead of setting up my miter saw stand and plugging in my air compressor and getting the extension cords and hoses, a battery brad nailer would be my next most wanted tool.
Japanese saws can have 'set' - Although their flush cut saw of course should not. Not trying to be critical, just for the benefit of your viewers. It'd be a shame to mar a surface because you treated your Ryoba like a flush-cut (although it's worth mentioning that often the set is only imposed towards one side of the saw - Chris Schwarz has a good LAP post on his Irwin Ryoba turned coarse flush cut saw for through tenons).
Best thing to think about mechanics of the human body, it is better on the pull than push. Competitive rowers aren't pushing, they are pulling. Our strongest large muscle upper body groups are our backs, lats, etc. Basically it's triceps and pecs vs the entire upper/middle back, side, biceps & forearm. Thinner blades, less material removed and much stronger muscle groups means a lot less stress and more consistent results.
I like the handle on a western saw more but a Japanese saw just once you use it you cannot go back they cut so clean so fast and it takes so little effort I just love a great Japanese saw
Only caveats to your overview is that Japanese pull saws, nokogiri, do have set in their teeth. Also I think it's more fair to compare hand forged pull saws that can be sharpened, they are made with high carbon steel. Does take a considerable amount of more skill and feather file to sharpen them, though there are some saw sharpeners in North America who can do this for you. I'm glad that you're only comparing mechanics, not the quality between the two. Other thing is with hand forged sharpenable Japanese saws, they have many different types for different types of wood. For example, softwood, hardwood, and North American oak. If you can't find oak specific teeth saws, then just get one of the disposable impulse hardened teeth. A more fairer comparison would be between disposable western saw vs disposable Japanese saws. Best wishes.
I would suggest that Japanese Joinery is much higher quality than any joinery found in "western" wood working. The difference as I see it is Eastern Philosophy harmonizes with the forces of nature and Western Philosophy attempts to overpower nature. The easiest examples are seen in the huge Japanese Pagodas that are hundreds of years old that have no fasteners. They continue to stand the test of time on islands that are extremely geologically active. Earthquakes have failed to topple most of them. After studying Asian Joinery for the last several decades I very much prefer Japanese Saws over western saws. Many of my Japanese saws are 40+ years old and are resharpened when necessary. I do have both Japanese style and western style planes though. .Experience has shown me that pulling is much more efficient than pushing.
I'll answer the question by linking to these videos of the epitome of Western furnituremaking: ua-cam.com/video/5Bhu7HjIGAk/v-deo.html And, of all the Eastern furnituremaking traditions many experts (Alan Peters, et al.) prefer(ed) the style and execution of Korean furniture, whose woodworkers use saws that cut on the push stroke, like ours. Zero chance that I want to cut with a saw that wants to pull the work piece up off the bench - everything has to be clamped, held down with a foot, or opposite hand. You can't just push the work piece into a stop and have the saw stroke reinforce that. The mix-and-match doesn't work for me -- eastern tools with western shop furniture and fittings. The teeth on a Japanese rip saw are no different than ours other than for the amount of rake and orientation to cut on the pull stroke. It is only their crosscut saws that have a different tooth geometry.
It the cheap price, and lack of wood work know how, other wise no saw stands to Disston, just another cheap advertising campaign for the Japanese economy. Another Toyota to kill Jeep. Ask Paul Sellers.
I'm part of the Dark Side... I bought my five Gyokucho brand Japanese saws about a month ago. I absolutely love them. The five saws cost me the same as a buying a single American Style saw from LV. At 54 years, back issues, post cancer etc. The Japanese saws cut through Hard Maple and Cherry with about 40 to 50% of the effort required compared to an American style saw. When cutting with the proper Japanese technique, and proper body stance, I can do cut after cut without feeling wiped out, sore and tired. My cutting accuracy is better. The cut's are amazingly clean and smooth. Less waste and sawdust to clean up. Strangely though, every time I use my new saws, the dog and I get a craving for Asian food.
+Patrick sounds like fun. It is so nice when someone finds what works for them.
Have to agree with this, after using the western saws for so long I recently had the chance to try a friend's japanese saw and was very surprised at how little effort it takes to cut, as I was expecting the smaller blade to require more force but its much easier!
My ideal saw is Japanese pull With Western-style "pistol" grip. R U Listening, Stanley Works ?
EDITED for spelling: I used western saws for about 45 years, yet within weeks of buying my Japanese saws I found I was able to cut more accurately with the Japanese saws. I still have uses for my Swedish saw though; I use it when cutting up reclaimed wood if I have any suspicion that there may be any nails or screws lurking within. The Swedish saw is pretty quick to cut through most types of wood and it’s sometimes a good workout breaking down old furniture with it.
Making something new from wood obtained that way is my favourite form of recycling!
I learned sawing with the Western style saw and after years still couldn't stay on a straight line. I bought a Japanese style saw and within an hour or so of practice I was able to cut well enough to cut tenons accurately. As an old dog I was able to learn a new trick !!
Very true. I was much the opposite when I started. it is very cool when people find something that works for them.
Love my Japanese Saws, i love that they can make super thin cuts. But i also use western saws as well but mainly use the western saw for rough dimensions, Japanese ones for precision.
Same for me as well. I use both alot. I still cant give up the ol western saws tho. In a way both have a genuine mystique feeling about them. I love them both. Western saws for rough work and Japanese for joinery. The Japanese saws make me feel like a pro with lots of precision and the western saws make me feel like a farm boy again. Use em both and have fun. Sawing wood feels just about as good as planing.
I was googling the difference between the two and this video answered every question I had. This should really be the go to for Japanese vs Western hand saws. Well done! Very entertaining too, I've learned a lot
Thank you. That means a lot. If you ever have any questions feel free to ask any time.
In the Oct 2015 Fine Woodworking Andrew Hunter wrote an article that convinced me to try Japanese before Western saws. After using saws on my bench I tried the Japanese saw horses for longer rip and cross cuts. Because they rely a lot on body weight and balance, it became kind of dicey to get the best mechanics. In the end I built a 10" high version of your western saw bench as a hybrid optimized for my pull saws. High enough to get a full depth pull, wide enough to stabilize body position, deep enough to add clamps, low enough for full body movement. Point being...your western saw bench design inspired my Japanese saw bench and vastly improved my comfort and accuracy with the saws.
LOL that is a cool idea! everyone finds what works for them. and it is always great when someone finds that.
James, I need to send you a photo and action shot. Thanks for indulging my rambling comment. Always glad to make you laugh in exchange for all your good teaching.
I actually bought a very similar priced 9.5" Ryoba on the recommendation of another channel and got the opportunity this morning to try it out and absolutely love the way it cut. I've used western saws my entire life and never touched a Japanese saw until today and will likely not be going back. Thank you for the excellent content!
LOL thanks Lee. don't have too much fun!
I keep at least 3 IRWIN ryoba saws around all my helpers have one handy. in a home and you need just a few trim pieces they are great just cut it overall a 5 gallon bucket & no flying dust to clean up which is unproductive time. I keep my good ones from wood craft at home I have a really nice ryoba and duzuky with the katana getting ordered. Keep em coming
I was put off at the beginning of the video where you acknowledged little experience with Japanese style saws. I have grown both weary and war of DFs on YT going on about topics they know little about. But I stuck with the vid to the end. It seemed balanced and informative for one at my novice level. So I subscribed. Keep up the good work!
Thanks. I try not to talk about topics I have no experience with but this is one of those topics that I get questions about all the time and thought it would be wise to talk through why I do it the way I do it
I'm mainly a power tool woodworker, so I don't spend that much time with hand saws.
I started off with a set of Veritas Saws, unfortunately I could not get consistent decent results. Granted I didn't use them to often, but I would use them even less because I couldn't get nice straight cuts.
Woodcraft had a sale a while back on some Japanese Saws and I decided to give them a try, much better results for me, I'm finally able to get square repeatable cuts.
I like the look and feel of the Veritas Saws, but obviously that doesn't mean much if the cut sucks.
In my experience, I see western Saws as more of an expert saw, certainly capable of getting great results, but requires more patience and practice to get there than a Japanese Saw.
Someone like myself who uses hand tools as a complement to primarily power tools would likely be better served with a Japanese Saw.
alot of people starting out have the same reason. the reason it is easier to keep a straight line is the saw is guided by the teeth that enter the cut. with the western saw any small guidance will move the direction of the cut as the handle is on the guiding side of the cut. with the Japanese style, the handle is on the side that has very little control of the cut so the saw will track straight and true as it is not being over controlled. top that off with little or no set and the saw is extremely stable as long as you line it up correctly to start.
I just bought a japanese saw myself to make flush cuts on my dowels. Perfect tool for the job, I love it, it does not scratch my piece.
best tool for the job!
I really like to use both and regularly alternate. I find I get less aches and pains doing this rather than spending a whole day using just one style. I guess it depends how much sawing you have to do in one session.
Hope you enjoy dipping your toe into Japanese saws James
thanks Mitch. That would be fun to experiment with.
I'm terrible with a western saw but as a cook the Japanese saw worked amazing for me it feels almost the same as using a bread knife for me. You do the motion but let the knife do the work
I love my new Ryoba pull saw. I have less arm and joint fatigue since getting this saw when compared to using a western saw. The crosscut blade works great for starting the ripping cuts as well as it has very little tear out. I think I need a whole set of these saws now!
+nvidiaguy they can be a lot of fun!
the best video about saw. there are so many videos they don't really explain like this one.
thanks! glad I could help!
What timing. I just bought a Japanese pull saw this morning. I thought I would give it a try and am building a wooden mallet using it. For me I feel like there is more control on the pull. Thanks for the video as always.
thanks man. that is interesting as the control is on the far side of the board for Japanese saws. and on your side for western saws. that is usually an indication that the user is forcing the western saw. as a Japanese in not as easily controlled because there is not control on the far side of the board. That is why some people do better with one than the other. but you never know tell you try.
I have a couple "Shark Saw" brand Japanese saws and I love them. The plastic handles don't feel cheap, they're made in Japan, and they're only about 20-40 bucks a piece depending on the specific saw and where you look. So, comparable to the Suizan saws you like. They also have a line of nicer ones with the wrapped handle (under the name "takumi") but I haven't tried those out - they seem to be more in the Gyokucho price range.
I agree on the very cheap ones - the stanley, irwin, dewalt, etc. pullsaws I saw in hardware stores and home depot honestly look and feel a lot worse.
Another advantage that the replaceable-blade saws have is that you can disassemble them for storage in a toolbox, taking up a little more than half the length. They're handy to keep in an on-the-go toolbox or just locked away where the kids won't play with them.
Vety true. I had not thought of taking them apart. I will have to keep that in mind!
I love my Japanese saws. Only downside of the pull stroke is that it tends to obscure your cut line with saw dust (since both the layout and dust expulsion are happening on the same side).
true. and the teeth that guide the cut are on the other side of the board.
Nice discussion of the two styles of saws James. I'll add my two cents and say that after purchasing and trying both stlyes, I do find it easier to make straight and plumb cuts with the Japanese saws than the Western style. I've heard that's the advantage of cutting on the pull stroke...it's easier to keep the cut straight and plumb and that is definitely true in my case.
Love your videos, keep up the outstanding work.
Mike
actually, the reason it is easier to keep a straight line is the saw is guided by the teeth that enter the cut. with the western saw any small guidance will move the direction of the cut as the handle is on the guiding side of the cut. with the Japanese style, the handle is on the side that has very little control of the cut so the saw will track straight and true as it is not being over controlled. top that off with little or no set and the saw is extremely stable as long as you line it up correctly to start.
I've observed this straighter tracking with my Japanese saws but never worked out exactly why it happened. Guiding teeth, and set. Thanks for clearing that up!
The gyokucho Ryoba is hands down one of the best pullsaws. And at only $40 it was $30 less than my veritas dovetail saw, which is a great saw but I really like my ryoba much more
so true. for new they are a lot cheaper. the odd thing is with antique the opposite is true.
I've seen lots of videos on Japanese saws as of late. I noticed sometimes you can purchase saws specifically listed as " for hardwood". Is this important if you are cutting into hardwoods, or is it ok to buy the "regular" listed Japanese saws? And can you use to cut into softwoods to with these "hardwood" saws. I don't see a lot of UA-cam videos mention the specifically designed hardwood Japanese saws or if you have to go through the trouble of buying it specifically to cut into hardwoods. Your thoughts? thx
That is just something so they can sell more of them. The difference is so slight you would not notice.
Like many of your followers I can say this was a very informative video. I use both western and Japanese saws but am using the Japanese saws more and more for the finer work. I have two Veritas carcass saw that I use for jut about all rough work. I thin the main difference in learning how to use Japanese saw is, as you mentioned, body mechanics , body stance and, of course, the work bench.
+David Clark right on
Very interesting, especially to newbie like myself who hasn’t started buying true quality tools yet.
The fun is just beginning!
the only time i ever liked pushing strokes was on a large crosscut saw cutting a log in half, easier to get really long rhythmic strokes. i like pulling better overall but you have to pace yourself, for accuracy and to not fatigue
Three things not mentioned here, which are worth considering:
1. Western saws are better for long ripping cuts. This is because the chisel like rip teeth are oriented to cut with the grain when you're over a board and pushing down. With a Japanese saw, you're actually pulling up from under the fibers going against the grain, which can cause it to catch, vibrate, pull the board up, and is generally uncomfortable and not as efficient. You can cut from underneath the board with a Japanese saw, or clamp the board vertically, but this is generally a bit awkward.
2. Japanese saws can be used when working on the floor much easier, both because they're smaller, and because they cut on the pull stroke, so you can support the board with your foot or hand as opposed to needing to kneel over it or have it in a vise.
3. Japanese saws actually do have a small amount of set. You can sharpen and set the good ones yourself, but it's difficult to do with a Ryouba because the set on both sides need to match perfectly or one side will interfere with the other during deep cuts.
My 4 yr old daughter says I need to get her some Japanese saw now😂 I prefer Japanese personally. Thx for another great video! Look forward to seeing you incorporate the Japanese saws in your work 👍
thanks Michael!
thank you. this is very informative. i use mostly western saws due to that's all i knew of. i do want a Japanese saw especially for flush cutting. will check out the link
Sweet Michael! they are a lot of fun to play with!
Like the man behind the machine, its the man behind the tool also. How much skill you have with your tool counts.
Right on. That's the big difference between hand tools and power tools. With hand tools it's the skill and using the tool. With power tools it's the skill and setting up the tool.
I have both in my shop and always find myself reaching for the Japanese saws.
Yup every one gravitates to one or the other. It is nice to have both on hand though.
Thanks for doing such a in depth explanation James. Answered many of my questions...cheers
thanks Richard. glad I could help!
It's super interesting how woodworking techniques developed separately in Japan vs Western Europe. Two biggest differences I've seen is A.How the work is held, and maybe more importantly, B.Whether certain resources were plentiful, namely glue, iron, and very large trees. Things much easier to come by in Europe than Japan.
very true. Also working space. Japanese have MUCH smaller work shops.
the Japanese mortise, Azibiki, saws are pretty handy.
very true!
Love that color accents of the wooden wall
Thanks for the more or less bias free evaluation of the differences! Most pro-Japanese saw people.... the way they describe it, they may as well be light sabers.
LOL I might have to use that one.
I think the key determinant for a lot of individuals should be "who else do you know that does woodworking?" There's a lot of value if you can troubleshoot any issues related to sawing with someone in the flesh: having them critique your form, or answering questions. However, if the only people you know IRL that share this hobby with you use a different style saw than you, you're probably just going to get a "I don't have that problem" or worse, their going to be trying to give uninformed feedback.
You are wright those saw prices weren't bad.
Great video as always
+Ty Goodman thanks Ty.
Next thing I knew James was woodworking on the floor.
LOL I am thinking in my next shop I will have an all Japanese corner.
Hard wood floor? Hand wood floor?
Very interesting. Can you do a video on ripping with a ryoba? I struggle with that, especially with boards thicker than half inch.
yup. there is one of the spots that a western saw is usually a lot easer. I will be showing it from time to time, but that might make a full video sometime in the future. thanks!
If you pause at 6:34 the two triangular saws look like your legs.
LOL nice!
I only have Japanese saws .Maybe have a look at the cost compair story because a good western saw isnt cheap aswell;) i bought my japanese Tajima GNC-300 saw for around 14 dollars ( online on taobao ,the Chinese amazon).
most of my western saws were $5 or less at the antique stores but I like restoring them.
The best saw in my mind would be a hybred of both. Pull saw, western shape, two hand vertical pistol grip, thin metal, tooth offset.
That would make a fun saw.
I have heard of people just buying the Japanese replacement blade instead of the saw, and then making a western handle for it themselves.
When I was introduced to woodwork in the 70's (I'm old) We had no knowledge of the Japanese saws or where to get them. So a factor to be added is what you grew up with, and as you say your body mechanics and muscle memory. I do have a couple of mid quality Japanese saws but use them rarely. mostly for flush cut of dowels or joints on small boxes.
yup. different strokes for different folks.
I'll Pardon the Pun ;0
ahhh finally...i have been waiting for you to cover this topic after watching other woodworking channels cover it. Your kinda my favourite teacher. hue3
thank you.I hope I can live up to that expectation!
Wood By Wright haaa james.... u did and i learnt a lot from you. Last year i still sent my saws to other people to get it sharpened. Last month i restored and refurbished 4 old german made backsaws. Reworking the teeth and profiling and later sharpening it. I even managed to switch the steel back with a brass back. Later i bring my reworked saws to some veteran carpenters just to get some opinion and review and boy I glad i did so. Those guys wanted my saw and one even willing to buy it from me. Of course, as a tool hoarder im not selling but it feels good. Hopefully, as long as you are abled to, i hope you continue what you are doing. Ive learned and improved a lot learning from you and other woodworking channels. Thank you
Sweet! that is what it is all about!
I lie the western style personally, but it's pretty hard to find an old one that will do the really fine work. I've picked up a couple disston back saws, but they're still to thick for fine detail work (in my hands at least). I may try another Japanese saw soon as some kind of weird nerve thing on top of tendinitis is making it tough to do things with my bugger panel saws
I feel much the same.I only have one antique back saw. for the same reason. all the others are newer versions.
Thanks for this video! But what do you think of gent saws? (Versus pistol grip)
+Kirby Tate lol in my world they are the worst of both worlds. But some people really like them.
4:45 "He is the least samurai there can be" Liam Hoffman (the blacksmith) about Samurai Carpenter, the Canadian woodworker. ;)
"I'm turning Japanese, I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so!"
LOL just wait till you start doing all your work on the floor.
Wood By Wright LoL
Do you have any updates on this having had time to use and experience Japanese saws more firsthand(s)?
They are still the ones in my shop though I have been offered others. For the price I love them.
I liked how you did your comparison on the saws, fantastic job 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Now when will we see a comparison between the chisels ???
+theduck lol when I get enough to show it.
Wood By Wright odd question I know, but how much do you know about chisels...I just got one and I don't know what it's for
+theduck send me some pictures. I would love to take a look at a mystery tool
Wood By Wright umm how do I do that??
You can delete this after, but if you can find me on Instagram I'm 'theduck1975' and I have put up some pictures there
I have used both and do not have much luck with the Japanese pull saws in American hardwoods. The Japanese saws are more suited for softwoods unless you don't mind breaking teeth off in your hardwood.
that is a common issue with them
Just more proof "Made in USA!" means something.
Very good ! Thank you James.
Love the Video, James!
For the two cents worth (and you might want change...lolz) I started with western style saws... I was HORRIBLE... For years and years upon years, I couldn't get a straight line to save my backside...
{you've probably already read a story similar}
THEN I found out about the Japanese Pull Saw... Got my first Ryoba from Harbor Freight... AND watched a couple vid's that featured them, original Japanese workers... (I didn't know better... so watch and attempt to emulate)... AND it was fascinating. I could cut straight.. Like even the first time out of the gate with this thing... AND it just chewed through oak like nothing!
THEN... (lolz) I tried emulating similar to those videos with a western saw (the same piece of crap that had pissed me off so many times already)... AND... Weirdly enough... The hand hold didn't work so went back, but the foot work... The STANCE was what did the damn thing.
Lead with your left toe just slightly (assuming saw in the RIGHT hand)... Hold the saw "normal"... As Matt Estlea likes to say, gently... It should just rest on your middle finger, the others resting into the handle...
You know... I'm not going to sit here and tell you slashing wood with a Japanese Saw is light cutting butter with a hot knife, nor am I going to lament that I wasted money on the Ryoba. I have three THREE now, Vaughan Bear Saws... AND I love them dearly. So there's that.
What I take away is that finding out how to stand and take your poise, similar to a chef with a knife for those infinitely repeated cuts... slivers... Just the slight angle to let your arms move STRAIGHT, makes all the difference. Find a preference of saw for the cut, and some folks just have an easier time pulling than pushing (or vice versa)... BUT find a saw that fits YOU, and then stand or crouch or take position PROPERLY... That angle has everything to do with whether you're about to make a cut, or get into a fight with your tool... AND almost nobody teaches that part, not openly, anyways...
I switch from push to pull saw depending on where exactly I'm trying to work. Some of the place here has space enough and the panel saws are great for just moving wood... If I have a large number of cuts to make, and the mitre-box is the thing to get, then the backsaw that fits it is a jewel... even at four bucks... and some elbow grease to clean the thing.
If I'm in the little bity shop with zero extra clearance... then the ryoba or smaller dovetail (mines a cheapo pistol gripped goob) makes it not take for friggin' ever...
AND of course, if I have someone (a client or other noob' student type) trying to help out... I just pass a pull saw and hope for the best. They almost can't screw it up... and I can usually just clean up the cut later.
SO... highly appreciate the evaluation, and yes... I know... The cheaper Japanese Style Saws are more kerf and work... but they do perform reasonably well for no more than they cost...
...AND with the Vaughan series (I can't really speak about the others)... You CAN "transplant" the pistol grip handle from one to any of the other blades. There are slight differences in plate thickness (and thus kerf, stiffness, etc...) BUT any of their blades will fit and function on any of their handles... just in case you (or someone else) were interested. ;o)
Interesting, I suppose if just want to have nice tools I can understand buy expensive hand saws. From the perspective of pro, I just go with the Bahco throw away saws, much easier to have a nice new sharp saw every time you need one. And to be honest, they get the same job done as an expensive saw.
Berry true.
Nice explanatory video. Hopefully lots of new woodworkers find this. This will be very helpful. I use mainly Japanese saws because they were what I could afford when I started out, like you said they are very affordable. Now I'm very good with them and do not feel and controlled or accurate with western saws. I will say I use my western saw for ripping. It goes a lot faster then even my biggest Ryobo saw. But those Japanese saw cut joinery soooo nice!
Very true. most people getdecent at one or the other and then just can not get good results with the other.
maybe you haven't practiced your technique, I have no problem with western saws.
@@cilofono Ergonomics researchers can demonstrate far more waggle With Any push-style (Western) saw versus the pull types.
I have found that any Pull-style saw has too much leverage movement due to handle lengths. My ideal saw would be J pull with their typically low/no tooth set attached to Western pistol grip handle. Less leverage with little waggle.
So, western woodworkers use western saws and Japanese saws. The big question is: Do Japanese woodworkers only use Japanese saws (or do they just call them "saws") or do they also see a need for western saws?
It depends on the Japanese woodworker. If they focus on traditional Japanese woodworking then they just use Japanese saws. However, a lot of Japanese woodworkers use both just like Western woodworkers.
Good info James. Thanks!
+Wildman Tech thanks man.
are there holes on either end of the Japanese saws for mounting on a peg?
correct. most of the cheaper ones have a hole in the toe of the plate and heel of the handle for that very reason.
there is always the frame saw too
What is that giant tool behind you to your right (my left)?
I think you're talking about the rubbo frame saw? I have a couple videos on making those if you want to see them. It's mostly used for ripping large amounts of stocks or resawing lumber
Hi, your remarks about the set of Japanese saws are not quite correct. There are some with no set, most most have one, though it not as much as western style saws. You can check if a saw has set by pushing it blade down on a surface and moving it around with a bit of pressure. The ones without set are intended for flush sawing and are usually smallish.
true, but the ones I were showing do not.
Wood By Wright I think you'll find they do have some set on the rip cut teeth, though small enough you could be forgiven for thinking they don't. The only Japanese saws that have no set at all are Kugihiki, the generally small ones meant specifically for flush cutting. Looking at your links I see that your small one there is in fact a Kugihiki (a rather big one.) You might consider getting a Kataba, which looks a lot like your flush cutter in that it doesn't have a spine, but has a thicker blade and is generally better for ripping long hardwood stock than the Ryoba because of its variable tooth pitch. It too will have a set to the teeth.
Tried Japanese saws and just could not do a good job with them. I think I am too accustomed to western saws.
Everyone is different. the western saw gives the user far more control as the side that guides the cut is on your side. A lot of people use Japanese because they are over controlling a western saw. with a Japanese saw, it just cuts and you have to use over control to get it to change direction.
I guess I'm what you'd call a 'hybrid woodworker'. I use my table saw and other power tools for milling boards, and more hand tools for fine joinery. I would argue that Japanese style saws are better for the hybrid woodworker (I have both, western style Lie Nielsen joinery saws and cheaper Japanese saws).
Japanese saws are more intuitive to use, make cleaner cuts, are cheaper, don't leave as much blowout on the back side of a board, and can be more easily used with jigs such as homemade miter boxes to ensure you get perfect 90 or 45 degree cuts.
The only disadvantage to the Japanese saws is that they can't be sharpened, but since their use is tempered by the fact that power tools are used for most dimensioning their lifespan is extended.
Conor McKee I agree as a hybrid wood worker as well
Conor McKee same
Very true. There are a lot of people that feel the opposite as it is a very personal choice, but that being said I feel much the same way. if you are just using them every now and then they do have a lot of benefits.
Chris P why do you prefer the western? Anything specific? Just curious
@Chris P, I think the amount you use hand tools to dimension lumber contriubtes greatly to preference of Western vs Japanese. I started out hand tools only, I have lie nielsen dovetail, crosscut, and tenon saw. Also a nice collection of old Disston and Keen Kutter panel saws (my D12 is pristine). When I was dimensioning lumber by hand the rugged western saws were way superior. I could make long rips quickly too. Since I started depending on my table saw for these operations my panel saws have gotten less use, same for my joinery saws. The fine cuts that can be produced by japanese saws is superior for joinery, which is what my hand tool usage has turned into once becoming 'hybrid'.
Is there a brand of Japanese saw you recommend?
there are so many of them it all depends on what you like. I really like Suizan ( www.woodbywright.com/tool-suggestions/chisels-and-saws )
The teeth are off set in a hand saw because it leaves room for the rest of the blade to go through. Otherwise, your blade will rub on the sides of the cut it made, increasing the friction and making it more difficult to cut.
Thanks for the info James! 👍👊
my pleasure Fred!
Can not get them to post to the UK
that can be a problem
One point of fact in an otherwise very good video - japanese saws do have set. It's just extremely thin. If there was zero set, they'd bind on every cut. My kataba has a 1.2mm kerf, which doesn't sound like a lot - but the plate is actually only 0.7mm wide (that's before the taper grind). That's 0.25mm set on each side of the blade. It's not much, but it's definitely not nothing.
There is the special case of the flush cut saws - they often only have set to one side, or no set at all. But they're not something you're going to be using for anything more than trimming.
I was not as clear on that point and made it sound like all do not. sorry. Many of them do have set. but most of the ones I have had do not have set, and most in the lower price range do not.
Excellent video! Thank you for clarifying the differences.
my pleasure Jody!
Good comparison! The teeth on a standard japanese saw do have a set to the teeth just fyi. The finer japanese saws will have a very narrow set to the teeth to make the finished surface nicer.
Corect. after watching I realized I was unclear in that point. I will have to find a way to amend it in the future.
Maybe do a cut comparison video and demonstrate how they work. In doing so you could mention it?
nice verbal explanation of the tools...but no actual demonstration? love to see you actually cut something
thanks for the feedback. this is an old video and I do have newer ones that correct that problem.
Soooo no more building airplanes by the wright brothers?
I still have that project in the back of my mind but I have to wait till there is time. maybe with the kids some time!
Does it mean something that you continually picked up the American dovetail saw and a general purpose Japanese saw when you should have picked up the more specialized Japanese (Dozuki?) saw to compare usage? I know you do know better but subconsciously?? Still a bit "Americanized" I reckon.
LOL I just picked up the dovetail saw because I love the feel of the grip on that. hand made by BearKat Woodworks. sweet saw!
"Krunky!" Interesting new word!!! :) :) :)
+JimMyra Wright you bet ya..
I am at a loss for words... I just.. I can't... Why?
Actually, I have a couple pull saws and a couple western saws. They each have their place. I seriously doubt re-sawing would be much fun with a pull saw though.
LOL yup. that is why they make Whale backed saws. those are a beast!
Haha, I tried this one time when I didn't have any Western style saws. I tried resawing a 18" X 8" mahogany board with my 14ppi Ryoba. It may or may not have taken three hours, I'll never tell. I went out and bought a $20 9 ppi Dewalt at Home depot and it took 15 minutes to take a second slice.
Oh Cut it out.... Best I can do. Good talk on saws. I am a tool nut. I like to collect and try to master as many tools as I can. I have mostly western saws. most of what I carry with me is power tools though. One exception is a small Tool box saw. it is about ten years old. the teeth are set and sharpened (about 30 degrees); almost no set more like a Japanese saw. And it is sharpened on both sides it truly cuts on both the push and pull. The wooden handle has one edge that makes the blade a 90 degree marking square and another that makes the blade a 45 degree marking tool. I also carry a handle that will Turn any reciprocating saw blade into a manual hand saw.
LOL thanks bill.
Good info! I was expecting to see some actual cutting though?
LOL more of that to come once I get more comfortable with them.
I actually had no idea until now that our saws are meant to be pushed. I guess I never put much thought to it, but pushing is so much less comfortable movement compared to pulling. I gotta get a Japanese saw now.
10 min video to talk about pull vs push. I'd think you could have used them side by side to showcase the differences. Like quality of cut, which performs faster (even having your western background) and any issues you run into while cutting. I use western myself though I have used Japanese. I'm considering a move back to Japanese as I can't seem to escape tear out with western saws. Either way, HUGE fan of your vids but this one let me down a little.
I will do one like that in the future once I have more time with use on these.
Came here to say this. A demo would be great. I've actually never considered using 2 hands with my Japanese saws so that would've been really interesting to watch. I've always one-handed them.
Japanese saws have set except the flush cut saws.
Im sorry but the breathing is very disturbing so maybe the audio is a bit high? Because i mean im watching this on my phone and i dont have the sound volume on very high. But its not really a problem. Nice video
thanks for the feedback
My body style is more ruler shaped lol. No really great information. Thanks.
LOL thanks man!
You can walk around with the Japanese saw in your back pocket and impact hanging off your watch pocket. When doing small repairs in houses that shouldn't take long I bring those and some screws or a hammer, nails, and the saw... Instead of setting up my miter saw stand and plugging in my air compressor and getting the extension cords and hoses, a battery brad nailer would be my next most wanted tool.
Break on through to the (dark) side🎶
LOL
Japanese saws can have 'set' - Although their flush cut saw of course should not.
Not trying to be critical, just for the benefit of your viewers. It'd be a shame to mar a surface because you treated your Ryoba like a flush-cut (although it's worth mentioning that often the set is only imposed towards one side of the saw - Chris Schwarz has a good LAP post on his Irwin Ryoba turned coarse flush cut saw for through tenons).
just a coment: japanese saw does not require both hands, actually it's easier if you use just one.
Best thing to think about mechanics of the human body, it is better on the pull than push. Competitive rowers aren't pushing, they are pulling. Our strongest large muscle upper body groups are our backs, lats, etc. Basically it's triceps and pecs vs the entire upper/middle back, side, biceps & forearm. Thinner blades, less material removed and much stronger muscle groups means a lot less stress and more consistent results.
I like the handle on a western saw more but a Japanese saw just once you use it you cannot go back they cut so clean so fast and it takes so little effort I just love a great Japanese saw
Only caveats to your overview is that Japanese pull saws, nokogiri, do have set in their teeth. Also I think it's more fair to compare hand forged pull saws that can be sharpened, they are made with high carbon steel. Does take a considerable amount of more skill and feather file to sharpen them, though there are some saw sharpeners in North America who can do this for you. I'm glad that you're only comparing mechanics, not the quality between the two.
Other thing is with hand forged sharpenable Japanese saws, they have many different types for different types of wood. For example, softwood, hardwood, and North American oak. If you can't find oak specific teeth saws, then just get one of the disposable impulse hardened teeth.
A more fairer comparison would be between disposable western saw vs disposable Japanese saws. Best wishes.
Japanese saws do have set just minimal.
I was not as clear on that point and made it sound like all do not. sorry. Many of them do have set.
Almost all japanese saws(except flush cut ones obviously) have teeth set too, pobably its just not that big than on western saws.
would it kill you to actually cut some wood
It is not like these are saws! lol
Japanese saws have set.Just look at the hammer marks on the teeth.
some do but most cheap versions do not. After watching I realized I was unclear in that point. I will have to find a way to amend it in the future.
Welcome to the dark side.
LOL thanks Jonathan!
I would suggest that Japanese Joinery is much higher quality than any joinery found in "western" wood working. The difference as I see it is Eastern Philosophy harmonizes with the forces of nature and Western Philosophy attempts to overpower nature. The easiest examples are seen in the huge Japanese Pagodas that are hundreds of years old that have no fasteners. They continue to stand the test of time on islands that are extremely geologically active. Earthquakes have failed to topple most of them. After studying Asian Joinery for the last several decades I very much prefer Japanese Saws over western saws. Many of my Japanese saws are 40+ years old and are resharpened when necessary. I do have both Japanese style and western style planes though. .Experience has shown me that pulling is much more efficient than pushing.
I'll answer the question by linking to these videos of the epitome of Western furnituremaking: ua-cam.com/video/5Bhu7HjIGAk/v-deo.html And, of all the Eastern furnituremaking traditions many experts (Alan Peters, et al.) prefer(ed) the style and execution of Korean furniture, whose woodworkers use saws that cut on the push stroke, like ours. Zero chance that I want to cut with a saw that wants to pull the work piece up off the bench - everything has to be clamped, held down with a foot, or opposite hand. You can't just push the work piece into a stop and have the saw stroke reinforce that. The mix-and-match doesn't work for me -- eastern tools with western shop furniture and fittings. The teeth on a Japanese rip saw are no different than ours other than for the amount of rake and orientation to cut on the pull stroke. It is only their crosscut saws that have a different tooth geometry.
it is not true that the Japanese saws do not have set, they have sets, just less so
What a waste of perfectly good ten minutes. Meh, doesnt matter is the conclusion and you pull with one and push with the other.
Thanks for the feedback.
@@WoodByWright effort is a thing.
It the cheap price, and lack of wood work know how, other wise no saw stands to Disston, just another cheap advertising campaign for the Japanese economy. Another Toyota to kill Jeep. Ask Paul Sellers.